JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 5 Apr 2007

Childhood Development Report: Discussion with Childhood Development Initiative.

Chairman

I welcome representatives of the Childhood Development Initiative to discuss their report entitled A Place for Children, Tallaght West. I welcome Dr. Katherine Zappone, executive chairperson, Katie Keogh, programme co-ordinator and Joyce Cahill, community engagement co-ordinator and administrator.

Witnesses should be aware that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Zappone to commence the presentation on behalf of the Childhood Development Initiative.

Dr. Katherine Zappone

I thank the committee for inviting us. I wish to express our warm appreciation to the public representatives of our constituency in Tallaght west, Deputy Seán Crowe, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, Deputy Charlie O'Connor and Senator Brian Hayes, all of whom worked both individually and collectively to support the planning and investment for the childhood development initiative.

The area of Tallaght west comprises the four communities of Brookfield, Fettercairn, Killinarden and Jobstown and has a population of 22,000 with 7,000 children under 15 years and 2,000 children between the ages of three and five. It is a RAPID region but a region with a rich community life and a strong history of partnerships between the statutory, voluntary and community agencies. The presentation includes some photographs of the children of the area.

I wish to talk about the area in the terms of a story. The first part of the story is that the idea began in An Cosán which is a community development organisation in west Tallaght. That idea was a response to some changes in the direction of a philanthropy that had been working in the country for a number of years, Atlantic Philanthropies. It was changing its strategic direction and made a decision to invest in the area of children and youth, particularly in disadvantaged areas. Some of the ideas led to the formation of the CDI. In 2004, Atlantic Philanthropies supported us to bring together a consortium of 23 members representing community leaders and leaders from the schools, the HSE, the Tallaght Partnership, South Dublin County Council, and voluntary sectors in west Tallaght.

We decided to plan for better health and education outcomes for our children and also support for their families. This represented a new opportunity for us to work together in a new way. We were given resources to plan in a long-term way with some international experts in children's services, with community leaders and statutory providers. We worked closely with politicians in our constituency. We were in and out of the offices of Deputy Crowe and many others, including Ministers, in particular the Minister of State with responsibility for children whom we informed about our plans. We developed a ten-year strategy and did different things over a year and a half to develop this strategy. At the heart of the strategy was engaging the community of residents and workers within the west Tallaght area and inviting them to be interested in looking for a new way to bring about change in the community. We worked with the consortium and with a number of smaller working groups, with all the principals of the area, the regional managers of education, health, welfare and the Garda Síochána. We were particularly focused on identifying the outcomes we wanted for our children. Through analysis of the research, we identified that we wanted to improve their health, learning and achieving, their sense of safety in the community and encourage their deepening and a sense of belonging. Based on needs analysis we looked at how what we were doing would fit with policies that had been developed or were being developed. We also constantly reviewed scientific evidence and proven models in Ireland and other places to ascertain what we could do better in order to bring about those outcomes for our children.

In 2005 we brought all the results of that work together into a strategy which we called "a place for children at Tallaght west" which represented our hopes and ambition for the work we wanted to do. The Taoiseach launched the initiative and we were supported by South Dublin County Council in preparing for the launch. More than 1,300 people from the community and beyond attended the launch.

The strategy identified the outcomes we wanted for our children, the activities we felt produce those outcomes, the investment required and evaluation plans integral to the strategy. The evaluation was key. From the beginning we were committed to measuring the change we anticipated. The strategy represented a collaborative effort. All of us working on it have worked together in the community. We thought it represented a new way of working in an inter-agency capacity that was rooted in the community, incorporating its analysis of its needs, hopes and expectations. That was the first part of the story.

Shortly after that, at the end of 2005 the Office of the Minister for Children was established to bring greater coherence to policy making and overseeing the implementation of those policies for children in education, health, family welfare and justice. In the context of that office, Atlantic Philanthropies and the Government agreed to establish the prevention and early intervention programme, which is mentioned in the Towards 2016 partnership agreement under the life cycle framework for children, showing interest by Government and other partners to engage in some innovative measures to support new and better ways to implement services that work for children.

In 2006 the Office of the Minister for Children made a call for proposals to apply to the programme. In 2006 we entered a second phase of planning on that broader ten-year framework to develop more specific proposals and accurate costings of what we wanted to do in the first five years. We established a steering committee, chaired by the South Dublin county manager, Joe Horan, comprising representatives of our consortium and regional statutory managers from the Department of Health and Children and other Departments to oversee the development of the investment proposal. We were linking into both the local authority and the regional structures in Departments in a new way.

At the end of 2006 we completed our proposal and submitted it. It was assessed in many ways and we received an indication of an investment of €15 million for CDI. Funding was also granted for the other two proposals, "youngballymun" which received €15 million and a smaller programme in the northside, "preparing for life". Those were the three projects invited to present proposals in the context of this fund.

We are always focused on delivering outcomes and in the first five years we have a number of activities and new services we have been developing following a scientific process engaging community service providers and others. We want to introduce a two-year pre-school prevention programme to strengthen children's dispositions to learning so they are more prepared for the transition to school. It will incorporate family support over the course of these years. We hope that approximately 240 children aged three and four in sites in each of the four communities in west Tallaght will go through the programme. We will also introduce an after-school programme to improve children's literacy. Again we are developing that with members of the community, child experts and people in St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra. We hope 315 children aged five and six will go through this one-year programme. We are developing an after-school programme to support children's social behaviour for another 315 children aged eight and nine. The after-school programmes will happen in the context of the schools and all the principals in the area are actively involved.

In conjunction with the HSE we are developing a "healthy school" programme. We hope to bring a health professional, probably a public health nurse, into two of the primary schools to work in health promotion and to provide some school-based clinical services that would be closely linked to the newly emerging primary care teams. The first set of activities were targeted at children and families. We are also focused on improving the safety and the built environment in west Tallaght. We are embarking on a community safety initiative, which will be community-led and will have a participatory approach to develop and implement what we are calling a "community safety contract". We are working closely with the Garda Síochána, South Dublin County Council and community leaders to develop that. South Dublin County Council is also leading an activity to create a more child-centred and family-centred environment.

We will work with existing service providers to support quality delivery. We are also working with regional managers in health, education and family affairs, coming together in an integrated services forum to review how we are developing and implementing services in a more integrated fashion with all the key players. As I said earlier, evaluation is a key aspect of our overall work. We are making plans now for the rigorous evaluation of the programme as a whole as well as the individual services and activities we implement and our ability to integrate service provision. That is a brief overview of the number of activities we will have, and children and families we hope to reach in the first five years.

Focusing on delivering outcomes we have developed a newish model of governance which links closely at a national level with the Office of the Minister for Children and at local and regional level with the local authority. We also work closely with service providers, parents and children on the ground. We have a board and have established an independent non-profit agency — a small company — to support the implementation of this initiative. Members of the board will be experts in the areas in which we hope to deliver. The board is overseen by and has a reporting relationship to the Office of the Minister for Children, involving the monitoring of progress. We also report regularly to Atlantic Philanthropies. We will also be linked into county governance.

As part of Towards 2016 and in the context of reviewing and supporting developments in the area of children, all local authorities will eventually establish children's committees. Our area will be one of the first to pilot that scheme. It will be chaired by the HSE and will being together all the key regional statutory players to support this initiative and the co-ordination and integration of other initiatives and all services focused on children. We also have a forum of people from the community — service providers, parents and children — that will feed into the overall governance.

I will conclude with the vision we have been trying to develop and some of the implications we hope will follow having done this type of planning and worked with all these constituencies — community, government and philanthropy. We have been trying to develop a model of partnership involving communities, philanthropic organisations and the Government and also local, regional and national stakeholders. Moreover, we have been developing a model of innovation, collaboration and inter-agency work as we devise a strategy and service developments for children and families. We hope that, through our rigorous measurement and evaluation of the processes and outcomes, engaging both national and international experts, we will demonstrate that our services and programmes work. Learning from these programmes will be mainstreamed at national level because we will be demonstrating ways of working that have been measured, tested and monitored to produce results.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Zappone. Members may contribute, after which the delegates may respond.

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome Dr. Zappone and her colleagues and thank them for their presentation. I congratulate them on their work. We are all aware of what they are doing.

My party leader has acquainted me with the work of CDI in Tallaght. My main interest is in determining what lessons we can learn that can be applied to the rest of the country. I welcome very much the concentration on the evaluation of outcomes, which is very important. Much of what has been done in Ireland, under various Governments, has employed certain measures without resulting in outcomes of the kind we desire. Dr. Zappone has given us a fair amount of information on this.

Standardised testing for literacy and numeracy is to be introduced at primary level next year. On the basis of the information we have on literacy and numeracy, we have not been making any progress in disadvantaged schools, and the outcomes are no better now than they were ten years ago or more. I am not trying to score political points in saying this but am using that period of time as an example. In general, while we have invested money we do not appear to have better literacy outcomes. Will Dr. Zappone be evaluating this or will it be left to the schools, which will obviously be doing so also?

There is obviously a strong focus on early education, which is the correct approach. On the measures in respect of pre-school and after-school initiatives, are existing services being used or are there new ones in place? CDI seems to be targeting younger children primarily. How old are the oldest children with which it deals? Dr. Zappone referred to statistics on 15 year olds. Are particular age groups targeted or are all school-going children targeted?

In my constituency we have just received a report from John Fitzgerald, former Dublin City Council manager, on areas in Limerick with issues similar to those that arise in west Tallaght. We would certainly be interested in learning from a model such as that of the CDI. The literature it sent us before this meeting refers to Tallaght west becoming a testbed for Government initiatives for children in disadvantaged communities. How can the initiatives be applied more broadly? Will there be a period of evaluation before what was learned in Tallaght can be transferred to other areas? I presume we can choose initiatives in Tallaght and try to apply them in other areas.

Dr. Zappone

Of course.

Deputy O’Sullivan

In Ireland we often fail to pass on lessons learned in one area to other areas. It is very important that the information in question be transferred to other parts of the country.

Deputy English

I am delighted to hear about the project, which seems to have been very successful. What is the most important message based on CDI's experience in recent years that pertains to areas other than Tallaght that want to copy its initiatives? I welcome the evaluation process and the desire to have an influence on decision making. What were the main stumbling blocks CDI encountered in recent years? Did one of these involve trying to get groups to work together? Very often various organisations associated with development boards engage in power struggles although they should all be working together. How did CDI overcome power struggles? Was it by way of a few key people pulling together or because it was obtaining results and money, thus making people realise it is good to work together?

Are there any lessons to be learned by service providers, especially in terms of planning? Much of CDI's work has been to address bad planning and the lack of initiative in the early stages. The organisation has had to try to play catch-up and correct mistakes. Is it involved in setting down pointers to assist in planning in the future? There has been much bad planning throughout the country, not only in Tallaght.

Given that most of CDI's initiatives involve children, what kinds of supports are available for their parents and families to bring them on board? Is much time spent with parents to bring them up to speed? I congratulate the delegates and hope they continue to have success.

Deputy Crowe

I welcome the delegates. Dr. Zappone began by outlining the context of her work. I will add to this by stating some more figures concerning the area in question. Dr. Zappone stated 7,000 young people, one third of the total population, are under 15 years of age. Some 63% of children are over five years of age and 54% of all children under 15 years live in either disadvantaged or very disadvantaged areas. Locals in disadvantaged areas do not like them to be described as such but this is the description used by the Government. Some 11% of the population over 15 years is unemployed, which is over twice the national average, and one third of all households are headed by a lone parent, which is well above 2.5 times the national average. Some 27% of the population of Tallaght west who have left full-time education have no formal educational qualifications or have primary education only. Almost 7% of the population have a disability, one in six of whom is under 15 years. These statistics contextualise how the group in question came into existence.

Some weeks ago I welcomed the announcement of Government funding for the projects, which funding was co-sponsored by Atlantic Philanthropies. I described the initiative as having the potential of improving dramatically the lives of hundreds of children, and their parents and families, in the area. It will certainly have a positive effect on the whole of west Tallaght. This can be measured over time as children begin to live in a safer, happier and more empowering environment. One should not underestimate the potential of the scheme, which is ground-breaking. Dr. Zappone may refer to the 23 partnerships but the scheme emerged from the community itself. It was not Government sponsored or the product of statutory agencies. The latter were drawn into it. It has been rare in my political life to see an initiative of this kind. It has come so far in terms of structure and funding.

I felt it important to invite CDI representatives to appear before the committee because the initiative has the potential to be mirrored in other areas. It does not just cover Tallaght west because there is an element covering Darndale and Ballymun. If we get this initiative right in respect of tackling poverty and achieving desirable outcomes, it will make sense to apply it to other areas, including Donegal and Mayo, in which there is a high level of deprivation and poverty. It is a rare example of enterprise and innovation which shows that encouraging and developing social capital is the key to successfully tackling many of the problems affecting our community.

Do the witnesses think that this prevention and early intervention programme could be a template for a national suburban anti-poverty strategy? How will the monitoring and evaluation of the programmes work? The most important aspect of the programme is capturing the information needed to replicate the learning and expertise development, and secure better quality outcomes for children.

A Combat Poverty Agency study mapping poverty showed the extremes of poverty in other areas. It is important to tailor this type of programme to the rural context. Dealing with poverty and deprivation should be a priority for our wealthy society. We have the research funds but there are also gaps in education and in health services, housing and unemployment. While in some cases statistics are available, the Government does not use joined-up thinking to deal with these problems. How important is a joined-up strategy from the Departments to the Childhood Development Initiative in the partnership process?

Departments send differing messages. A couple of weeks ago some of us were involved in trying to prevent the closure of a crèche in our area, although we are told funding for such projects is ring-fenced. There is a lack of quality housing. Much of it is still ill-thought out and badly designed. Apartments being built today are investor-led and not family-friendly. New housing estates in my area generate rising school enrolments but there are not enough new schools.

How long did the process take to reach this point? What made CDI consider such a broad-based group approach? There must have been problems the group did not anticipate. What were the most important of these? Can the programme be replicated and, if so, how would CDI go about that, without creating a new layer of bureaucracy? How many children are involved in the project? What was it like to deal with Atlantic Philanthropies? The witnesses said this was a new direction for the organisation but did it try to take over the project? People would be concerned about that. What approaches did the group make to the Government? What difficulties did it encounter? What changes would it recommend?

How important is it that parents are involved in education in respect of this project? Provision of children's services in the local hospital is the major health issue in the constituency. How important is it that services remain there for the young population, or are enhanced, bearing in mind the transport difficulties?

Deputy O’Connor

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to speak because I am not formally a member of the committee. I also thank him and my colleague Deputy Crowe on their initiative in arranging this meeting.

I am glad that Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned Tallaght at the beginning of the meeting because it means that I can mention it a few times.

Deputy O’Sullivan

Deputy O'Connor would do that anyway.

Deputy O’Connor

I wish to be associated with the welcome extended to the witnesses. Without wishing to patronise them, the group has impressed us greatly for a long time by the way it has done its business. It has been clear and careful about involving politicians of all persuasions which is good in a democracy. Over the next 50 days many political statements will be made but in communities such as Tallaght west people, headed by An Cosán, and on the doorsteps, want their local politicians to work together. Deputy Crowe and I have responded to that call as neighbours in Tallaght. An Cosán has been fair this morning in acknowledging that we have all worked with it. Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned Deputy Rabbitte's work in the area which has been an important part of the process. Somebody listening to Vincent Browne's programme on radio recently formed a very different impression which is a pity but people understand these matters. Politicians working together in partnership with community leaders is the way forward.

I am delighted and excited by what this project has achieved. My party leader has shown particular interest in it and has come to see it twice. We should recall that he once said that when the economy is doing well and all boats are rising, there are little boats that need special attention. I was reared on a corporation estate which has helped me understand in my political work in Tallaght that one needs to rise to those challenges and be positive.

Deputy Crowe said that people do not like to talk about disadvantage or to be bracketed. We need to understand these challenges. I am not making a political point but Tallaght west has improved significantly in recent years and CDI and An Cosán have been involved in that achievement. It is important to reach young people in the area, who will respond to this type of programme. It is an exciting time for them and for the community.

Tallaght can show the way to the rest of the country in this as in other matters. This kind of project could be replicated in Limerick, Meath or Kerry. The Taoiseach and Deputy Brian Lenihan have made that point well and I hope that people are listening and examining what the Tallaght project is achieving. I hope that the process will be found useful. Perhaps Dr. Zappone can go on a little tour sponsored by the Government and deliver the positive message.

Deputy Crowe and I might have differing views on Government health policy but we have co-operated seriously on the issue of the children's hospital. I am glad Deputy Crowe has raised it, since it is important to make the point. It can sometimes be lonely being a Government backbencher. However, I have been very clear that children's services at Tallaght must be maintained and developed. We must know what is going on in that respect. Deputy Crowe and I were recently here at midnight — that sounds somewhat dramatic — raising the issue of the National Children's Hospital, Tallaght on the Adjournment. I am glad he has done so again, since it is relevant to this group.

I know Dr. Zappone will keep politics out of this, but confusing messages are circulating. I am very clear that I am not making a political statement when I say that Tallaght Hospital children's services will not close. Given the Childhood Development Initiative's remit and work, the witnesses will know that it is of concern. People raise it with me as I walk the streets of Jobstown and the general west Tallaght area. It is important, and this positive presentation has shown the CDI's very worthwhile achievements, which set an example for everyone else. I hope the Government will understand the potential in that regard. I wish the witnesses well and look forward to working in partnership with colleagues and the community in advancing the matter. At the end of the day — "at the end of the rainbow" might be misconstrued — it is important that we look forward five or ten years to the outcomes, which will be positive. I congratulate the witnesses again.

Dr. Zappone

We will do our best to answer members' questions. Some are similar, and perhaps I might take those together.

Deputy English asked about our main message. Deputy Crowe has referred to it being and continuing to be an initiative rooted in the community. From the very beginning, for example, in the planning phase, we had many people who worked in the community, and we considered them part of it. However, we also had leaders who lived in the community sitting at the planning table. That has maintained the project's spirit and enabled us to retain the motivation and continue to negotiate the various stumbling blocks. Ultimately, they will be working with us to support the children as they grow up and to promote the sustainability of the outcomes we seek.

Perhaps Ms Cahill might offer a word on the subject, since I believe it to be the main message. She has worked with us and also lives in the community.

Ms Joyce Cahill

It is very different, since it has involved the community from the beginning. In every decision made, we have been led by the community, which decides and identifies its needs, to which we respond. We have involved it throughout. Some 1,500 people attended the launch, and I estimate the community element in that figure at 1,000. It is a rare thing, and many do not even understand what is happening. They know that something is happening, however, and strongly desire to be part of it. Everything we do involves the community, and that is what has made us different and successful.

Dr. Zappone

Regarding stumbling blocks and challenges in the planning phase, it was initially challenging to get people sitting around a table since we had spent time around many tables planning for various initiatives and putting together the plan. There is often a quite significant time lag in securing resources to support plans, and that was difficult. However, another key aspect of the message that I tried to emphasise in the presentation is that this community initiative was supported through philanthropy. I will come to Deputy Crowe's question on that later. It has also been supported by community politicians, who have helped us reach other parts of the Government to discuss what we do. That partnership between the community, philanthropists and the Government is unique in my 20 years experience of working in the area. That was what really helped us navigate the various stumbling blocks and challenges.

Some questions dealt with a focus on outcomes, how they can be monitored, and how data can be captured and shared so other areas might also benefit. Deputy English asked specifically about literacy, numeracy and our after-school programme, how might that data be captured and if we will be able to measure progress. I will ask Ms Keogh to say a little regarding the planning of that service, since its design is a great example of partnership with schools. Afterwards I will address how we collect the data.

Ms Katie Keogh

Services were planned initially to collect information from schools on children's progress. From that, we have examined needs and considered what curriculum might address them. We have considered standard aid measures and worked closely with experts, particularly those at St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, who research reading, to develop a curriculum to address those needs.

We have constantly striven to ensure that what happens in the after-school programme is married to what happens in school. Results from the after-school programme are proving that what is happening in that setting will also influence what is happening in school. It is very much a holistic approach. Alongside it, we have built in work with parents so what happens in and after school also happens at home. We have used different measures, many of which still have to be finalised, regarding the development of the service's ability to gauge where children start and what they achieve, capturing how that influences behaviour.

Dr. Zappone

My colleague is trying to describe how we work very closely with schools in agreeing and tracking changes in children. We are still working on the overall evaluation plan and approach. It involves close liaison with the Office of the Minister for Children and examining the indicators or measurements that we want to track regarding literacy or health that it also wants. They are indicators of children's wellbeing, and we will ultimately agree on them.

We will evaluate things in various ways. One way is that we hope to conduct a survey of changes regarding various indicators of children's wellbeing incorporating learning, health and other elements. It is rather like the report we issued about children. Now, before we begin, mid-way through, and towards the end, we will be able to track some of those changes. I emphasise that any data collected on changes and to evaluate individual services and the programme as a whole will be decided following discussions, not only among us, but with the Government.

Some questions concerned how other areas might learn from this experience. Another aspect of what we will be doing is developing a systematic dissemination strategy. The evaluation effectively begins when we collect some of the baseline data before services start. After the third year, we will develop ways to share all that information, not only with our community but across the prevention and early intervention programme. The Office of the Minister for Children has already established under Towards 2016 what is called a national implementation group, which I understand is a grouping of several assistant secretaries from various Departments, as well as representatives of the Health Service Executive and others, who are watching what is going on in these three sites and receiving information in that way. The whole county will receive information in terms of what we are doing in the children's committee but, on a national basis, the information will go to the implementation group.

In addition, a children's forum will be established nationally in the context of the Office of the Minister for Children. It is serious about learning from what we are doing early on and sharing this learning systematically with those groups, and we will also decide how to disseminate across our community and other communities. That answers some of the questions around evaluation, dissemination and learning.

A question was raised with regard to whether we will develop new services or continue to provide the current services. It will be a combination of both. We are designing some new services but the people who will deliver them are those who have worked with us very closely in planning all this. These are the service providers in the area who want to take on the delivery of these new services or even change some of the services they are delivering to fit into what we have been developing.

There were questions with regard to the age on which we focused. The ten-year strategy is for children and young people up to and including those of 18 years of age. We decided to focus more on the earlier ages in the first five years in terms of the services that are targeted at individual children and families. However, as the committee has heard, we have two initiatives that target the whole community, namely, the community safety initiative and the initiative with South Dublin County Council which works with us to improve the whole environment. In that way, we hope that even in the first five years, we will reach the older age groups as well.

Deputy Crowe asked about the prevention and early intervention programme from which we are being funded. It is an innovative measure linked to a focus on anti-poverty work. I agree with the Deputy in this regard. What we are doing is not simply isolated within a community which is trying its own pilot initiative. It is part of a programme sponsored by the Office of the Minister for Children. I would view it as a way of redistributing resources towards the various areas that experience disadvantage. In other contexts, I would have been very outspoken in terms of calling for an increase in income supports for people who are experiencing poverty. However, in this context, while I am not saying those policies should not continue, if they are coupled with the redistribution of resources for services that are designed in the ways we have identified, with the best possible research and external support, that is another way of increasing income support, which is the best way to move against poverty.

Why did we opt for a wider base? West Tallaght is a relatively small community of 22,000 but it requires quite a big plan to reach the whole population. As Ms Cahill described when she launched the plan, it has always been in the interest of the community that all members of the community are encouraged to take increased responsibility for what happens in the community and that they are supported to do this for their children and their neighbours' children. This is why some of our plans are specifically related to encouraging the community to take responsibility with us, especially the community safety initiative. I ask Ms Cahill to comment on this initiative so the committee gets a sense of that wider base we are trying to help.

Ms Cahill

Since the initiatives will cover only a small percentage of children in the first few years, we are considering a safety initiative to engage the wider community. We have developed the idea of a community contract, like a code of conduct, which we would agree to stand by to address the anti-social behaviour issue. I have met approximately 12 different focus groups to pilot the idea of the contract and they have been very responsive so far. They really want a solution and want people to work together. This initiative will be community-based and the communities will decide what is to be addressed and how it will be addressed. We will be able to support them in achieving this.

It is very exciting. The focus groups I have met are comprised of teenagers, senior citizens, men, women, parents and others. There has been a fantastic response so far. The initiative will engage the wider community and empower them to take control of the situation in their areas.

Dr. Zappone

That addresses some of the questions on parental involvement. All the services we are designing have family supports built in and there are other ways in which parents will be involved, especially in the context of our governance structure and what we are calling a CDI forum. Perhaps Ms Keogh will comment on that.

Ms Keogh

This is another part of the governance structure and relates to what is happening locally with the service providers and the parents engaged in the service who are helping us to roll out the initiative. The implementation of the initiative will aim to bring the learning from it back to the board and the children's committees in order that we get a sense from every level of those engaged with the initiative of what is happening and the learning captured at all levels. In the main, it will be those locally who receive and deliver the services who will feed their learning into the governance structure through the CDI forum.

Dr. Zappone

Deputy Crowe asked about the link with philanthropy. We have been working with the philanthropists for more than four years, although I and people representing other communities would have worked with them on other initiatives. It has been a very positive partnership that has developed over time. An Cosán was sent a letter to the effect that they would change their strategic direction, although we had received some support from them in the past. I felt an opportunity arose in responding to this change. They wanted to focus on children in a more strategic way and, in terms of my past experiences with that particular philanthropy, I believed they wanted to engage in a real partnership with no hidden agendas. I believe they still want this.

In the context of this fund, they eventually found a way to co-fund some innovative initiatives with Government. However, they do not want to do this on their own because they are interested in finding ways in which their investment can have a lasting impact. As many members are aware, a forum for philanthropy is being established by the Department of the Taoiseach whereby it and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, with some of the key philanthropists, are gathering to consider how Government and philanthropy can work in a more collaborative way nationally.

As for the children's hospital in Tallaght, I do not wish to make a political comment. While I know the Health Service Executive is not the hospital, it has worked closely with us in respect of all our planning and on early years services in particular. Its heads of services have sat around our table many times and it works closely with the hospital. The director of services of the children's hospital in Tallaght participated at our last meeting, as well as the consultant paediatrician to the hospital, who is a member of our board. We are working with the children's hospital in the context of its present status and it is important to continue to so do.

I will respond to some of the questions as to our hopes in terms of our activities. We hope for better outcomes for children and better supports for families within the community. In addition however — I tried to end the presentation in this manner — this learning experience should influence what goes on elsewhere. While we do not necessarily wish to see the establishment of a childhood development initiative in other locations, hopefully many learning experiences have arisen that pertain to the models we are creating of best services for children. I refer to the methods employed, including the manner in which we have engaged national and international experts to work with us, the co-operation of local politicians, all the programme's different aspects and the manner in which we have learned to work together in a new way.

Members are aware the CDI has a website and has sent much information to many of them. We have documented what we have learned and are trying to pass that on. The bringing together of all such interests and desires has enabled us, even in the local context, to be in a better position to deliver integrated services in a different fashion. In the context of the children's committee at county level, it has enabled us to find new ways of joining up systems that must then influence the way of thinking and of joining up systems at a national level.

Senator B. Hayes

I thank the Chair for allowing me to comment although I am not a member of the joint committee. I have attended to register my support for Dr. Zappone and her colleagues in the CDI. The evidence the joint committee has just heard shows there is a great deal to be learned from a model pilot project in terms of putting in place structures to deal with proper childhood development. The developments that will take place in west Tallaght and two other areas in the course of the next five — and hopefully ten — years constitute a model that the joint committee and the Oireachtas must examine closely. The success one hopes and can predict will arise from this project is a model that can be used in other locations.

Another significant point regarding the CDI is the manner in which all local public representatives from all political parties have been brought together by this initiative that involves both individual politicians and the political process. Groups that consider this evidence should note it is the route to take when trying to put forward good community-led ideas, as well as ideas that have the potential to obtain a significant level of funding from the State. I wish to register my support for that process and to thank the CDI for its constant dialogue with all the public representatives in Dublin South-West on bringing this project to fruition and getting results from it. I have no doubt it will make a significant difference to the community and the lives of children in that area.

Chairman

I thank the representatives from the CDI. Members have received a great insight into what can be done and must be done in other disadvantaged areas. I thank them for appearing before the joint committee. I thank members for their participation in this worthwhile meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. sine die.