JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 6 Dec 2007

Language and Literacy in Infant Classes in Irish-Medium Schools: Discussion with Gaelscoileanna Teoranta.

Chairman

Cuirim fáilte roimh toscaireachtaí Gaelscoileanna Teoranta, CNCM agus Foras Patrúnachta na Scoileanna Lán-Ghaeilge chun cainte leis an Chomhchoiste Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ar maidin. Cuirim fáilte roimh: Micheál Ó Broin, uachtarán Gaelscoileanna Teoranta agus príomhoide Gaelscoil Chnoc na Rí; Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin, ardfheidhmeannach Gaelscoileanna Teoranta; Pádraig Ó Duibhir, taighdeoir agus léachtóir Coláiste Phádraig; Máire Ní Dhufaigh, comhordaitheoir Shéideán Sí agus ball an Choiste Teanga, CNCM - NCCA; agus Dónall Ó Conaill, stiurthóir Foras Patrúnachta na Scoileanna Lán-Ghaeilge.

I ask them to commence their short presentation on the implications of the Department of Education and Science circular 0044/2007 on language and literacy in infant classes in Irish-medium schools. Members will then be given an opportunity to ask questions.

At the outset it was the hope of this committee to deliberate on this presentation, to discuss the issue with departmental officials, and then possibly make a recommendation to the Minister. In view of the court proceedings departmental officials are not at liberty to appear before this committee at present and we hope to discuss the issues with them at a later date when the court has made its ruling, one way or the other. In the meantime we are eager to hear the presentation, to ask questions and to learn more.

Before we commence, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I thank Gaelscoileanna Teoranta and the delegation for appearing before the committee today.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I wish to respond to the Chairman's comments concerning the decision of the Department not to appear before this committee today. On my own behalf and on behalf of my party, I want to express my extreme annoyance and frustration at the decision of the Department of Education and Science not to attend the meeting. I reject completely its suggestion that departmental officials are unable to speak in public session with this committee in connection with all issues pertaining to the circular given the current judicial review.

The Chairman will be aware that this matter was fully debated at plenary session between myself and the Minister for Education and Science only three weeks ago and all of the legal arguments, which presumably will come before the court in due course, were rehearsed there.

We, as a committee, have a responsibility to hear the arguments on both sides and the fact that the Department has refused to appear before the committee today shows not only distain to the committee but an inability to debate and dialogue on this issue and the entire position it took since the first day the circular was issued.

Chairman

The comments of Deputy Hayes, as lead spokesperson for Fine Gael, have been duly noted. I do not propose to take any more interventions on this precise issue at this stage. However, members, particularly Deputy Quinn who may wish to speak in due course, will have the opportunity afterwards.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I strongly endorse and support the comments made by Deputy Hayes.

Chairman

The situation is as it is. With that, I ask the delegation to make its presentation. I hope we can have an interesting and informative debate, and certainly inform the Members. Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin ar dtús.

Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin

Dia daoibh ar maidin a Chathaoirligh, a bhaill de Chomhchoiste Oideachais agus Eolaíochta an Oireachtais agus a chairde. Gabhaim buíochas libh as ucht an deis ár gcás a chur faoi bhráid an chomhchoiste inniu ar cheist atá ina údar mór imní do phobal nangaelscoileanna. I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to address the meeting today on a subject which is of immense concern to the gaelscoil community.

Tá cás an-simplí á dhéanamh againn. Ar an gcéad dul síos, is oideachasóirí muid. Is é an priomhról ata againn agus muid ag freastal ar riachtanais na bpáistí atá faoinar gcúram ná oideachas iomlán a chur ar fáil de réir mar atá leagtha síos sa churaclam náisiúnta. Is rogha scoile agus rogha tuismitheora é go ndéantar amhlaidh trí mheán na Gaeilge - rogha atá cumhdaithe sa Bhunreacht. Ní bhíonn droch thionchar ag an rogha seo in aon bhealach ar ar bpríomhról mar oideachasóirí.

Our case is a very simple one. We are educators first and foremost. Our primary role in serving the children entrusted to our care is to deliver a full education through the channels laid down by the national curriculum. That we do so through the medium of the Irish language is a school and parental choice that is enshrined in the Constitution. In no way does this choice impact negatively on our primary role as educators.

Trí rian na staire, mairimid i sochaí ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge ina teanga mhionlaigh. Glacaimid leis sin agus aithnímid gur ceart go gcuimseodh oideachas iomlán Iíofacht i mBéarla chomh maith le líofacht i nGaeilge, agus i dteangacha eile go deimhin. We live, by mark of history, in a society where Irish is the minority language. We accept this and we recognise that a rounded education should encompass fluency in English as well as Irish and, indeed, other languages.

Is é an Béarla an teanga atá thart timpeall ar fhormhór na bpáistí a fhreastalaíonn ar an ngaelscoil — ar an mbus, sna siopaí, ar an Teilifís agus ar an mbealach chun na scoile. Is é an rogha atá a ghlacadh againn, trí chóras an luath-thumoideachais iomlán, ná spás anála a thabhairt don Ghaeilge sna luath-bhlianta oideachais — an deis a thabhairt do pháistí an teanga a shú ag an staid is éasca dóibh ina saol agus chun breis roghanna a bhronnadh ar pháistí de thairbhe na scileanna breise a bhéas chun leasa dóibh tríd a gcuid oideachais uile. English is the language that surrounds most children attending gaelscoileanna — on the bus, in the shops, on television and on the way to school. The choice we make, through early total immersion, is to give Irish the room to breathe in the early years of education, to give children a chance to absorb it when they are best capable of doing so and to give them greater choices by way of language skills throughout their whole education.

Is é an fáth a bhfuilimid anseo ós bhur gcómhair inniu ná go bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ag iarraidh an rogha sin a bhaint dinn trí eisiúint chiorcláin 0044/2007. larraimid oraibh, a chairde, machnamh a dhéanamh ar roinnt sonraí suntasacha roimh daoibh aon chinneadh a ghlacadh arbh cheart nó narbh cheart don Roinn é sin a dhéanamh. The reason we are before you today is because the Department of Education and Science, by way of circular 0044/2007, is seeking to take that choice away from us. All we ask is that you consider some relevant points before making your own minds up over whether they are right or wrong to do so.

Deir an Roinn go bhfuil an taighde atá ann neamhchonchlúideach agus go dtógfadh sé an iomarca ama fanacht ar thorthaí taighde nua. Deirimid go ndíríonn gach píosa taighde idirnáisiúnta - is mian liom béim a chur ar sin, gach píosa taighde gan fáil go brách air — ar na buntáistí suntasacha a eascraíonn ón gcóras luath-thumoideachais iomlán, ní amháin chun leasa na teanga Gaeilge mar mhionteanga ach chun leasa forbairt oideachasúil iomlán an pháiste. The Department says that research is inconclusive and that new research would take too long. We say that all — I stress all — international research points irrevocably to early total immersion producing significant benefit, not only for the minority language but for the overall educational rounding of children. I gCeanada, sa Bhreatain, i dTír namBascach agus in áiteanna eile, tá an cruthúnas ann sa taighde agus de réir mar atá go fírinneach. In Canada, in Britain, in the Basque region and elsewhere, research and reality have proven this to be the case.

In Éirinn chomh maith, cruthaíonn an taighde a thug an Roinn féin faoi sa bhliain 1988 agus a foilsíodh sa bhliain 1991 an fhírinne céanna. Cuirfear cóip de sin ar fáil daoibh. Léiríonn taighde eile a thug Donal Ó hAiniféin faoi le bliain anuas buntáistíi an chórais luath-thumoideachais agus bréagnaíonn sé an tuairim a chloistear go minic go ndéanann luath-thumoideachas iomlán dochar don Bhéarla. Níl aon fhírinne ag baint leis seo. Rinneadh anailís i dtaighde Uí Ainiféin ar na caighdeáin ghnóthachtála i léitheoireacht an Bhéarla i measc 3,298 páiste gaelscoile ag deireadh rang a dó agus a cúig sa bhliain acadúil atá díreach caite. Faoi dheireadh rang a dó, léirigh sé gur bhain 43% de phaistí a chaith ar a laghad bliain iomlán sa chóras luath thumoideachas sna gaelscoileanna an scór céanna amach is a bhain an 33% is airde ar bhonn náisiúnta.

In Ireland also, research undertaken by the Department in 1988 and published in 1991 does likewise. More research undertaken by Donal Ó hAiniféin during the past 12 months quantifies the benefit and refutes the notion often wheeled out that immersion education damages English learning. This is simply not the case. Donal Ó hAiniféin's research surveyed the English reading attainment tests of 3,298 children in gaelscoileanna at the end of second and fifth classes in the last academic year. At the end of second class, it showed that the equivalent score achieved by the top 33% of children nationally was attained by no less than 43% of children who had enjoyed at least one full year's early total immersion in Irish.

Tá roinnt mhaith fianaise ann ó shaineolaithe eile, lena n-áirítear Edwards agus Baker, a dhíríonn ar bhuntáistí an luath thumoideachais iomlán do gach cineál foghlaimeora, iad siúd le cumas íseal oideachais nó le deacrachtaí foghlama ina measc.

There is also much evidence, from Edwards and Baker among others, that points to the benefit of early immersion for all including those of low educational ability or those with learning difficulties.

Sé bhliain déag ó shin, léiríodh go raibh ag eirí go han-mhaith leis an gcóras tumoideachais. Níorbh fhéidir aon tátal críochnúil a bhaint as cén fath gur mar sin a bhí, agus ar an mbonn sin tugadh geallúint go dtabharfar faoi bhreis taighde. Faraor, níor tharla sé riamh. Léirigh torthaí Uí Ainiféin, a foilsíodh an tseachtain seo caite, an toradh céanna agus éilíonn sé go soiléir an gearghá a bhaineann le níos mó taighde faoi seo.

Research carried out 16 years ago shows that immersion education was working well. As it was not possible to draw firm conclusions about why this was, further research was promised. However, it never took place. The Ó hAiniféin research published last week found the same result and highlights the clear need for more research.

Sé mhí deag ó shin, mhol tuairisc Harris, An Ghaeilge sna Bunscoileanna: Treochtaí Náisiúnta Fadtéarmacha in Inniúlachtaí, forbairt agus tacaíocht an chórais luath thumoideachais. Seoladh an tuarascáil go hoifigiúil agus d'fháiltigh an tAire go mór roimpi.

Some 16 months ago, the Harris report, Irish in Primary Schools: Long Term National Trends in Achievement, recommended the development and support of immersion education. The report was launched and warmly welcomed by the Minister.

I mbliana, mhol an Chomhairle Náisiúnta Curaclaim agus Measúnachta do dtabharfar tacaíocht don chóras luath thumoideachais iomlán agus go dtabharfar faoi thaighde bhreise, mar a mhol an Chomhairle um Oideachais Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta freisin. Thar na blianta fada, bhí bunús comhsheasmhach agus loighciúil leis an argóint. Freagra frithráiteach a bhí i gciorclán 0044/2007.

This year, the National Council for Curriculum Assessment, like the Comhairle um Oideachais Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, recommended that early total immersion be supported and further research undertaken. Over many years there has been a consistent and logical theme to the argument. Circular 0044/2007 was the contradictory response.

Táimid an-mhórtasach as an gcáil atá orainn mar náisiún d'aos léinn. Is léir go bhfeictear ar na múnlaí den luath thumoideachas iomlán atá á gcleachtadh in Éirinn laistigh dár gcuraclam náisiúnta mar dhea-shampla os comhair an tsaoil de mhodhanna inmholta teagaisc agus sealbhaithe teanga. Agus é sin ráite, mura ndéantar ciorclán 0044/2007 a aistharraingt, cuirfear deireadh leis an gcóras agus ní bheidh deis ag an taighde a chruthú cén fáth ar éirigh chomh maith leis ar feadh os cionn 50 bliain.

We pride ourselves as a nation that achieves high standards of education. It is evident that the models of early total immersion practised within our national curriculum at present are looked upon as a shining example of how language teaching and nurturing should be undertaken. If, however, circular 0044/2007 is not withdrawn, we will kill the system and never know why it worked so well for more than 50 years in practice.

Mar oideachasóirí agus theangeolaithe, ní féidir linn ligint do seo tarlú. Tá ár bhfeachtas taréis an-chuid tacaíochta a mhealladh ó shaineolaithe agus chomhghleacaithe i ngach cearn den domhan nach gcreideann an rud atá ag titim amach in Éirinn. Impímid ar an gcomhchoiste a thionchar a chur i bhfeidhm chun go dtarraingeofar siar ón gníomh seo agus chun go ngabhfar buíochas libh ag na glúin de pháistí, an-chuid daoibh nach bhfuil ar an saol go fóill, a bhfuil ceart acu oideachas a bhaint amach sa mhodh teagaisc dátheangach is mó rath air dá bhfuil sa domhain. Cabhraigh linn le bhur dtoil dul i gcion ar an Roinn Oideachais agus Eolaíochta ciorclán 0044/2007 a aistharraingt agus chun tabhairt faoin taighde a gealladh dúinn i 1991 agus a d'iarr comhairleoirí na Roinne ar an Roinn arís i 2006 agus 2007.

As educators and linguists, we cannot stand idly by and let that happen. Our campaign has drawn support from colleagues around the world who cannot believe what we are on the point of doing. We appeal to the committee to bring to bear its influence by encouraging the Department to pull back from this course of action. It will be thanked by generations of children, many as yet unborn, who will have the right to be educated in the best proven bilingual method of education that exists anywhere in the world. I ask members to please help us to persuade the Department of Education and Science to withdraw circular 0044/2007 and to undertake the research that was promised in 1991. In 2006 and 2007, it was again urged, by its advisers, to undertake this research.

Gabhaimid buíochas ó chroí libh uile as bhur gcuid ama agus spéise.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I sincerely thank Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin and her colleagues for their presentation and for the support documentation provided with it. I apologise that I am not confident enough to converse as Gaeilge. If our guests do not object, I will make my points as Béarla.

The import of circular 0044/2007 is significant, not least in terms of the development of gaelscoileanna throughout the country. However, it is also important in the context of the legal standing of the revised curriculum. As members are aware, the latter was introduced in the period 1998-99 and a fundamental legal question arises in respect of it. The Department has not, to date, put any of the regulations into statutory format or framed a ministerial order in respect of them. The legal question to which I refer must be dealt with quickly because not only does it affect the circular at issue here today it also affects every other circular that was published following acceptance of the revised curriculum in 1998-99. The fundamental point to which I refer will have to be determined as part of the judicial review being undertaken by the courts.

My personal view is that the Minister has dug herself into a hole in respect of this matter. Effectively, she responded to one case in one part of the country without first engaging in consultation or dialogue and she cannot now extricate herself from the hole to which I refer. That is most regrettable, particularly in light of the development of the gaelscoileanna and the extraordinary work they have done in the area of primary education. I was struck by the comments made by the NCCA, an independent body with no axe to grind, to the effect that more research needs to be done in this area.

I wish to put only one question to the delegation. Research was promised as long ago as 1991. If the Minister applied the brakes in respect of the circular and stated that this research should be carried out, how long would it take for it to be completed? Who should be responsible for conducting such research? We all accept that there is a major need for much more in-depth and thorough research on early immersion. How long should such research take and who would conduct it?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Would it be possible for our guests to reply to Deputy Brian Hayes's question before I contribute?

Chairman

As discussed in private session, it is proposed to take questions from Deputy Brian Hayes, who has already contributed, Deputy Quinn and one spokesperson from the Government side. The practice in the past was to take all questions together but this resulted in replies not being given in respect of some of them. We will, therefore, take questions from three members at a time.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

A reply from our guests would, perhaps, have made my follow-up question more pertinent. However, I accept the Chairman's ruling. I apologise because níl Gaeilge maith agam. Will our guests indicate why this action has been taken? I have spoken to John Harris about the available research evidence which has been cited and it states that one swallow does not make a summer. The overwhelming evidence available does not seem to justify the action taken by the Department. I do not think for one moment that the Department is against the Irish language and it is clear that further research is needed, as Deputy Hayes has maintained.

In the estimation of the delegation, what is driving this? If it is a question of saving face, there will be many other issues on which we in the Opposition can rub the Minister's nose in it, so to speak, but this issue should not be one of them. I certainly would not be looking for a head-to-head confrontation which would result in the wrong decision being taken because the alternative is a loss of face.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

Go raibh maith agat. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na daoine atá anseo inniu. Tá naoínra, gaelscoileanna agus gaelcholáiste nua in aice le mo bhaile agus tá siad ag dul ó neart go neart.

I am very interested in this because my sister-in-law is Spanish and my niece and nephew were Spanish and English speakers from when they could open their mouths. I understand the concept of early immersion in language yielding results for them as they are now learning Irish in an ordinary school and are trilingual.

I wish to ask certain questions of the delegation which are different from those I will ask the departmental officials when they attend. The delegation's presentation states that in the immersion education model pupils learn all subjects through the medium of a designated language and this is Irish. I presume the Department will say if a school is teaching all subjects, that should also include the teaching of English and parents should be entitled to a full curriculum. I would like a specific response to this issue of the full curriculum.

The delegation has stated that the immersion system results in pupils achieving a higher fluency in both English and Irish. Are all gaelscoileanna using the full immersion system? If they are, this will answer the question and if they are not, why not?

I am a musician and I firmly believe that if we were to immerse children from nought to six years in music, their brain development would be influenced and it would help them to learn other subjects and give them the rounded personality which the delegation says the Irish language gives the children.

How does one achieve a balanced curriculum with everybody coming out the other side? I do not mean Irish is not different and is not important but I view it from my perspective as a musician who can see value in other subjects as well.

Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin

I will ask Pádraig Ó Duibhir to reply.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir

I will address the questions in the order they were asked and I ask my colleagues to join in. The first question was about the length of time to be taken on research and who might undertake it. Deputy Quinn referred to John Harris who was consulted by the NCCA on this subject. He put together a schedule of the type of research required. There is a need for both short-term and longer-term research. Some research could be conducted within a period of two years. The Department of Education and Science is to undertake a national reading survey in 2009, for example, and this will include a sufficient sample from gaelscoileanna so that comparisons can be made. The type of research carried out by Dónal Ó hAiniféin will be carried out officially by the Department perhaps through the Education Research Centre. This will provide the big picture as to how the gaelscoileanna are performing when compared with other schools.

John Harris has outlined research that is more qualitative in nature and which comes closer to what is happening locally. Why do parents send their children to school? What are the literacy habits at home and what influence does this have on the achievement of pupils in all-Irish schools? Are some parents choosing not to send their children to an all-Irish school because of the total immersion policy? These are questions which we all want answered and they would require a more long-term project. In the space of two or three years we could answer many of the questions but there is a real need. John Harris made this point in his report on the attainments in the Irish language. We do not have the type of research which has been done internationally, for example, in Canada and elsewhere, which can then stand up and can be a real evaluation of the system. It will take longer to answer those deep questions.

On the question of who would undertake such research, I would suggest John Harris, people in Scotland such as Richard Johnson or people in Canada. I suggest a panel of experts drawn from local and international experts to draw on those experienced in this type of research in other countries. It could not be argued then that the research was carried out by a local person with a particular slant or bias but rather by an international panel.

Ms Máire Ní Dhúfaigh

Is í an cheist ina bhfuil spéis agamsa ná cén fáth Gaeilge seachas ábhar eile, the question asked by Senator Keaveney — why not some other subject? I would say that the language of delivery in the gaelscoil for delivering the other subjects in the curriculum is Gaeilge. The new 1999 curriculum, an curaclam nua, allows for a great deal more pupil involvement than previously or when I was at school when the teacher was the centre of the classroom and the pupils were the quieter participants in the classroom. There is now a great deal of emphasis on group work. We want the children to bring their prior knowledge of the world to the classroom and into each subject area. There is a great deal of project work and they need to have a good command of the language to deal with the other curriculum areas which are delivered through Gaeilge. I think this is more important now in the new curriculum,ná mar a bhí sé faoin sean-chóras scoile.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir

I will add that the issue in this is language. The curriculum defines language as one area and Irish and English fall into that area, as do the modern languages at a later stage in primary education. What is marvellous about education through the medium of Irish is that the pupil gets two for the price of one. By educating people through the medium of a second language, they are not losing anything in their first language. This is the beauty of it and the reason we should promote it wherever we can. If we wanted to introduce Spanish or any other languages referred to, such as Mandarin, in the future, this shows the way to proceed. All subjects can be taught through that second language without losing anything from the first language. The main reason is that the children are exposed to that first language outside school so that what happens outside school is complementary.

Research has shown that the initial period is critical, especially where a language such as Irish is in competition with English. Irish is a lesser-used language, even within our own country. It has been defined as a minority language and is one for the children because they do not encounter it outside school. Research has shown that if a foundation is laid for a certain period at the beginning with total attention given to Irish, then the children are given the skills and they are front-loaded, so to speak. English can then be reintroduced into the school. It is not that the children are not exposed to English because they speak English to the teacher initially and gradually change to speaking Irish. It is not a question of putting Irish before English. Research in Canada shows that French is front-loaded and this does not have any negative effect on English skills.

On the question of the action which has been taken, it is difficult to know what is driving it, so to speak. The Department has not made any statement as to the reason other than to say that everybody must implement the one curriculum in full. From a gaelscoil perspective, one would argue that all the language objectives in the curriculum are being fulfilled. It is not in the interests of any parent to send a child to a school where it will miss out on something. The pre-literacy reading skills required for children in Irish and English are being laid down, although through the medium of Irish rather than English. We have, therefore, a transfer of skills across the two subjects.

A memorandum officials in the Department provided to the Minister before she made her decision refers to a significantly wider public policy matter. It states: "In any event research will, by its nature, focus on but one subset, learning impact, of what is a significantly wider public policy matter". I do not believe the nature of this wider public policy matter has been explained.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

Are all gaelscoileanna using the total immersion system?

Mr. Micheál Ó Broin

No, different models are in place. Some schools start with English earlier than others. While we share the Minister's desire for some form of regulation, we believe the one-size-fits-all approach is not the correct one, nor is a requirement that every school do two years of total immersion. More research must be done to determine the reason the total immersion policy works. Anecdotally and based on the small amount of evidence available from national and international research, it does work.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

Is it 50:50 at this stage?

Mr. Micheál Ó Broin

The figure would be close to that. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment has issued guidelines or recommendations for four different múnlaí and 97% to 98% of gaelscoileanna operate within these structures. We will make this argument forcefully. Sín an bealach amach. We should be given the flexibility to fit into the structures and múnlaí recommended by the NCCA and research should be conducted to identify what works best in what circumstances. This element of knowledge is missing, in other words, research is needed either to back up our claims or those of the Department.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Tá mé ag caint anseo mar iar-oideachasóir. D'oibrigh mé mar léachtóir sa litríocht i gColáiste Mhuire gan Smál. I thank the delegation for its presentation. I have had a strong interest in this area for many years. I was formerly involved in the teaching of the English language. As Mr. Ó Duibhir correctly noted, however, the issue here is one of language learning, irrespective of whether it is in Irish or English. The revised curriculum embraces language learning.

All available international and national research on language learning points to the importance of the taught language becoming the child's internal voice. This only comes through immersion in the early years. Having observed teaching practice in gaelscoileanna and the gnáth scoileanna, it is lovely to observe children who speak English being spoken to by teachers exclusively in Irish and gradually making the transition to the point at which Irish becomes the teanga nádúrtha. I strongly support the immersion model. We must also take account of the Canadian experience with the French language.

In my previous role, I used to visit schools specifically to deal with the English language and doubts were most commonly expressed to me about the teaching of Irish to children with learning difficulties and dyslexia because we had no research available to us to test its impact. It is poor practice by the Minister and Department to suddenly issue a circular without having tested their various hunches and hypotheses. Why did the Department not initiate quantitative and qualitative research prior to issuing the circular? We do not have longitudinal studies or tracking of the total immersion model versus the lesser immersion model.

Good practice would suggest that if the Minister wants to show leadership in this area, she should, at a minimum, introduce a pilot scheme in a small number of schools to test the approach she favours over a specific timeframe and compare outcomes with those of the total immersion approach. Given the success of gaelscoileanna, why has research not been carried out in this area?

My second question is broader in scope. While I am impressed by the growth in gaelscoileanna, I would like the influence of language learning in the classroom to infiltrate into the communities in which students live. I would like this dimension to be considered in future research. This takes us back to Bunreacht na hÉireann and the right to have oideachas trí Ghaeilge. It would be wonderful if education through Irish also influenced the communities in which pupils live.

Deputy Joe Behan

I join the Chairman in welcoming the delegation and found its presentation interesting and thought provoking. How would 30 minutes of English language instruction per day during the first two years of primary school, involving a professional teacher taking pre-reading and other language activities in the English language, be damaging to the cause of gaelscoileanna? As speakers noted, children in gaelscoileanna speak English in the playground, shops and on the way home from school. From the point of view of ensuring they are competent in both languages, as Mr. Ó Duibhir noted, it is essential to have pre-reading activities in English and Irish in the revised curriculum.

Does the delegation seriously believe that 30 minutes of English per day will damage its cause? To take the scenario in reverse, my interest in this issue is to ensure the vast majority of children in English-medium schools develop a healthy relationship with and interest in the Irish language. The delegation would not argue that Irish language tuition should not feature in English-medium schools because it would clearly favour having the greatest possible degree of Irish language tuition from the moment children enter junior infant class. I am genuinely trying to understand the reason the delegation believes it would be so damaging to the cause of gaelscoileanna to have 30 minutes of English language instruction in the first two classes in primary school.

Senator Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht, a rinne cur i láthair iontach maith. Tá ár gcuairteoirí tar éis déileáil le cuid mór de na ceisteanna a bhí agam agus tá freagraí faighte againn. Tugaim tacaíocht don feachtas seo. Níl mé sásta nach bhfuil oifigigh ón Roinn anseo. Thaistil daoine os na toscaireachtaí chuig an cruinniú seo — dá bhrí sin, is mór an trua é nach bhfuilimid ábalta caint fosta le oifigigh na Roinne. Cad atá taobh thiar don cinneadh atá déanta ag an Aire? Níl mé ábalta a fháil mo chloigeann féin thart ar an rud sin. Mar a dúirt cainteoirí eile, tá an taighde uilig againn — taighde náisiúta agus idirnáisiúnta — ina bhfuil sé ráite go bhfuil buntáistí ó thaobh tumoideachas de. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil cuid mór de athbheochan na Gaeilge, go háirithe taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, curtha síos don obair atá déanta ag gluaiseacht na gaelscoileanna. Tá mé iontach buíoch don obair atá déanta cheana féin. Sílim go dtagann ciorclán 0044/2007 salach ar an Ghaeilge. Ag an bpointe seo, tá muintir na Gaeilge ag cosaint an teanga i gcuid mhór bealaí difriúla. Tá ionsaithe beag á dhéanamh ar an Ghaeilge anseo is ansiúd. Is é an ionsaí ó thaobh na tumoideachais sna gaelscoileanna de an ceann is measa.

One of the questions I have for the delegation has already been asked, which is what is behind this. Is it a financial reason or because one or two schools have used the immersion system in a way other than the gaelscoil movement would like it to be used? How do we resolve this issue?

I believe tumoideachas is the way forward and results from various international studies confirm this. Immersion has been used in other countries. Let us examine the situation that prevails in another part of this country. The Good Friday Agreement commits us to harmonising policies on an all-Ireland basis. In the Six Counties, where the Irish language is not even an official language, tumoideachas is practised and the Minister has informed us she will continue to allow this approach.

The opponents of early language immersion suggest it would be unfair to immigrants not to have English taught at an early stage. I do not agree with this assessment but I would welcome a comment from the delegation on the argument that has been put forward.

Deputy Ulick Burke

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht chun an coiste. Is there an indication from the Minister or the Department of any background reason for the issue of circular 0044/2007 other than the stated reason regarding the timing of the statement and the Minister's visit to a gaelscoil in Kerry? Everybody knows the gaelscoileanna have been very successful. There is no legitimate reason of which we are aware for interference by the Minister in this way, but perhaps there is an underlying reason other than the statement by the Minister that she used this opportunity to take action. Are there any lobby groups, which we have not heard about, behind this circular?

Chairman

An bhfuil ceist eile ag éinne? Ba mhaith liom ar dtús cúpla focal a rá. Beidh am againn le haghaidh ceisteanna i gceann noiméad. Cé go bhfuil orainn níos mó taighde a dhéanamh in Éirinn, tá sé deacair argóint a dhéanamh i gcoinne an taighde idirnáisiúnta, mar shampla igCeanada, sa Bhreatain agus i dTír na mBascach.

That is not in question. From the limited evidence we have in Ireland, immersion appears to work. I had a meeting with Ciarán Ó Feinneadha and Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin a few months ago. The suggestion made to me by Ciarán is that a school in which he was involved that was non-immersion had much lower levels of fluency in Irish in particular than the immersion model. The call appears to be for choice to be reinstated. Perhaps Mr. Ó Broin or Ms Ní Ghréacháin can inform us of the percentage of gaelscoileanna that are immersion and the percentage that are non-immersion.

My final question may sound contentious but I am being a devil's advocate rather than expressing my personal view. Critics say that insistence on immersion is a form of cultural apartheid. There are many immigrants in Dublin, in particular in growing communities, and because their parents are not fluent in English, in effect, their children are being forced to go to schools other than gaelscoileanna. This is not my personal opinion but the argument has been made. I would like the question to be answered as bluntly and forcefully as possible.

In my constituency, up to 20% of the population is of non-Irish origin. Most of them go to Educate Together schools but some of them go to the local gaelscoil. How would the witnesses rebut the argument that the immersion policy prevents integration by not having some degree of English which would enable these children to communicate with their parents? A number of questions have been asked and this is an important issue so I will not put a time constraint on witnesses whom I urge to answer as fully as possible.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir

Senator Healy Eames asked a question about learning difficulties, particularly dyslexia. I speak from experience as I have a daughter who has dyslexia who is finishing her education currently in an all-Irish school. It takes a couple of years for dyslexia to be diagnosed. It does not become evident until the end of the emergent literacy phase. Pre-literacy skills can be acquired. If there is a difficulty, it becomes apparent when the child is entering into early fluency. By that stage, under any of the models proposed by the NCCA, English would have been introduced.

Ms Ní Dhúfaigh is involved in Shéideán Sí and a wide range of literacy materials are available to allow children to engage in reading in Irish before they use English. They can still read at home. The Reading Recovery package from New Zealand is also available in Irish. Supports are available.

When I started my own school in 1985 I recall there was a view that children in gaelscoileanna did not need learning support. We did not have a learning support or remedial teacher, as they were called then, for about five or six years despite our campaigning. It is recognised now that anyone can have a learning difficulty. It is not associated with choice of school, socio-economic class or anything like that. Children of all abilities are catered for within the gaelscoileanna, as they should be. When children have a difficulty, it is addressed. The support is offered in whatever language is deemed most appropriate and, in many cases, this is English because it is usually the home language. That is my experience.

Research from Canada shows that learning difficulties did not disappear in children when they left the French immersion stream to go to an English stream. Those children still struggled with their learning difficulty which shows the language was not the difficulty. The crucial issue is for there to be sufficient learning support teachers and resource teachers in gaelscoileanna.

Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin

I wish to add to the remarks about dyslexia. Page 26 of the bilingual document refers to dyslexia and the lack of native research on the subject. The research by Baker and Cline suggests it is easier for a child with learning difficulties or dyslexia to learn a phonetic language like Irish before English and that the schools would then transfer from the phonetic language to English which is a non-phonetic language. In regard to Welsh it is advised that literacy skills are acquired in the phonetic language rather than English. For a child with dyslexia, learning to read via a consistent phonetic language has advantages in terms of ease and speed of learning. It is also suggested that it is not advisable for two languages to be learned simultaneously if a child has difficulties. In our case it would be wiser to start with Irish which is a phonetic language.

Ms Máire Ní Dhúfaigh

An Coiste Teanga is the language committee of the NCCA, and the next stage of our work is to elaborate on the múnlaí which is very basic. We have the ceithre múnla but they have not been elaborated on. The next step of our work, which has been held back by the problem we have at present, is to elaborate on each stage and deal with the language and literacy questions arising from each múnla. This would deal with conditions such as dyslexia and give teachers guidelines on how to cope with particular areas. The teacher would know exactly what to do in circumstances where Gaeilge would be taught in the first year and where Gaeilge and Béarla would be taught in the second. They would learn which areas of language transfer from one to another and the problems associated with phonics, for example. In this regard, they would learn the difference between phonics in Irish and English and the stage at which this matter should be dealt with. This is the work to be done on foot of what has already been achieved. All the guidelines and information would be available to deal with both languages if the committee were to proceed with the four múnlaí.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It would be really interesting to hear gaelscoil teachers' views on this matter. I did not know about it heretofore. Máire Ní Dhufaigh mentioned that the phonetic approach is easier to deal with in the first instance. This points to the need for research.

Chairman

It might be prudent to ask some teachers to send relevant information to this committee, either through the delegates' organisations or directly. We will consider the information in our deliberations.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

Cuirim fáilte roimh an ngrúpa. Bhí a chur i láthair an-chabhrach ar fad. I declare an interest in that I am a member of the board of management of a gaelscoil. Coming from County Kildare, I am conscious that there are six in the county and one well-established gaelcoláiste. It is interesting that I have never received a complaint from a parent on this issue. Chuir sé ionadh orm nuair a foilsíodh an ciorclán sa chéad dul síos. However, circulars from the Department of Education and Science tend not to fall out of the sky. Deputy Behan's question on whether Irish instruction for junior infants for half an hour per day would render the existing system non-viable is highly relevant from the point of view of the Department, irrespective of the views of some members of this committee.

Nuair a bhí mé ag dul ar scoil, bhí an Ghaeilge á mhúineadh dúinn trí mheán an Bhéarla. Perhaps we could have an Irish solution to an Irish problem by teaching English trí mheán na Gaeilge do na naíonáin. B'fhéidir gurb í sin an fheidhm atá ag an Roinn. If we are to be fruitful in our endeavours, this meeting should recommend that the research referred to by many speakers be done by the Department so future initiatives will be based on scientific evidence. Tá sé bliana nó seacht mbliana caite agam mar bhall de bhord bainistíochta ghaelscoil, ach go dtí gur tharla an conspóid seo, níor chuala mé riamh faoi thumoideachas. Ní raibh an téarma sin fiú ar eolas agam.

Chairman

In my capacity as Chairman, I cannot comment on the validity of the Department's decision not to send representatives today. However, I am disappointed that a full debate could not be held today, on foot of which a recommendation could have been made.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir

On Deputy Behan's question on whether it is damaging to have 30 minutes of English instruction per day, we would say such instruction is not doing any good. I have results of research carried out in Canada that indicate that, in the case of a majority language child, that is, an English speaker in an Irish-medium school, the second language should be introduced as early as possible in a way that allows for the development of communication skills. This is really what we are trying to achieve through total early immersion in Irish. The research, conducted by Merrill Swain, states the results of early immersion in French in which the amount of instructional time in English and French is varied — the children, therefore, have some English — suggest there is no advantage to the use of English in the early grades in improving English language skills or academic achievement. I could outline some arguments in favour of early English instruction for 30 minutes per day, but research indicates that it does not do any good. What evidence does the Department have that it would do good?

On the question of damage, 97% of the children in gaelscoileanna come from an English-speaking environment and enter an environment which we are trying to establish as totally Irish. To some extent, pupils are asked to suspend disbelief because they know they will hear English when they go out the school gate. We create an environment in which authentic communication through Irish takes place. The children realise that all activity is done through Irish and that, therefore, they must get a handle on it, and they do. This is reinforced when the teacher does not speak English to them. If the teacher teaches English for half an hour after lunch, the children will say he or she actually understands English and will, therefore, understand if spoken to in English. At four years of age, children's conceptual thinking is not fully developed in all areas and they believe that because one speaks Irish at all times, although one understands English, one is an Irish speaker. Therefore, they decide they must learn to speak Irish. I made this point to the Minister but she did not accept it.

Having to speak Irish is a great motivator. Instruction in English "reduces" some of the motivation — "damages" is probably the wrong word — and the children do not develop their communicative ability as quickly as they might. We are trying to teach the whole curriculum through Irish and, consequently, the sooner pupils develop Irish-speaking skills, the better. It has nothing to do with being anti-English. I always say to parents that, even if they do not have much Irish, they should ensure they read stories and talk to their children at home. Language development in the home can proceed through English and this supports what occurs at school. All the evidence suggests the first language should be supported at home.

On the Chairman and Senator Doherty's comments on children of different nationalities, research shows that literacy in the first language seems to be crucial for those entering an English environment. I refer to children for whom English is a second language, be they Polish, Russian or otherwise. We should be getting parents to support literacy in the first language at home. Children who have good literacy skills in their first language do well in immersion systems. We are looking to Canada for evidence of this. Children from homes where literacy has been developed in Mandarin and Gujarati do well in a French immersion system, while children who enter the system without literacy skills struggle. The advice for gaelscoileanna in developing enrolment policies is that children will do well in an immersion setting where it can be established that parents will develop their children's literacy skills at home.

I am not sure whether instruction in English for 30 minutes per day would make a great difference. I suspect it would not for the children in question. From my knowledge of schools, there is an open-door policy and children are not refused on grounds of race or language background. I do not know if there is any evidence for the criticisms made. Research supports a measured and informed approach.

Senator Healy Eames referred to phonetics. Dr. Fiona Liddy in Maynooth is conducting research on Irish as being less orthographically opaque than English. Welsh is phonetically regular, English is irregular and Irish is somewhere in between.

Chairman

An bhfuil sibh críochnaithe?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I have learned a great deal from this presentation. My two younger brothers went to Scoil Lorcáin after my eldest brother failed Irish but passed his Spanish exam in the leaving certificate, much to my mother's disgust and even more so to that of my father who was an Ulster gaelgeóir.

Declan, the elder of my two younger brothers, lives in Canada and his three children have gone through total immersion in French in Saskatchewan, which is not a French speaking province. My eldest son was dyslexic which, as Pádraig said, does not manifest itself until age eight or nine so I know that this issue does not arise among junior or senior infants

In areas of rapid population growth there are difficulties about the availability of schools. I was amazed at the statistic in the presentation that 98% of the children come from a non-gaelgeóir background. One cannot get into 20 of the 22 schools in Dublin South-East unless the parents notify them straight after the mother falls pregnant. With newcomers entering a school where the teaching is poor because teachers are trying to cope with 33 children or more, some of whom do not have English as their first language, parents may choose to send their child to a gaelscoil because it is a different and better educational environment and the parents and teachers tend to be more enthusiastic. I believe in the right of parents to choose the appropriate education for their children but some of the anti-gaelscoileanna comments suggest that this is a kind of social apartheid, that people are avoiding making the best choice for their child, although it is incredible that any parents would do that

I am sorry that the Department is not represented here. Its officials should have been here to answer some of the questions we put that the witnesses cannot answer, such as why circular 0044/2007 was initiated. It seems that the way forward is for the circular to be stalled until further evidence is available. The witnesses should pursue the research. There are various arguments in favour of total or partial immersion. As Mícheál Ó Broin said, there is a variety of practices within gaelscoileanna. Our educational system needs diversity of approach to maintain choice for parents and for teachers to teach as they wish and as they believe is right.

Chairman

I will invite Deputy Hayes to ask his supplementary questions. I am not asking people to volunteer for the sake of it but any other member who wishes may have one minute to ask a supplementary question. Deputy Hayes has up to five minutes.

Deputy Ulick Burke

May I ask Pádraig to answer the question I asked?

Chairman

We will let the Deputy in again.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I asked whether there are other agendas lurking in the background.

Chairman

I will let the Deputy ask that question again if he feels he did not get an answer.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I have asked it.

Chairman

He can remind the witnesses before they speak. Deputy Burke will be the last person to ask a question.

Deputy Brian Hayes

We have all learned a significant amount from today's presentation and from the answers to our questions, but what do we do next? Everyone, including presumably the Department, accepts the need for research. Why was the circular distributed so soon after the issue first arose? We must find a way forward but it is difficult to do that if the Department cannot appear before the committee until the judicial review concludes. None of us knows how long that will take. The committee should make a recommendation in advance of that. Otherwise we will not be able to make an impact on the Department's decision. The arguments put this morning are eminently sensible and reasonable and I do not know how they can be countered.

We are in the dilemma that we cannot hear an oral presentation by the Department until the case concludes, which could be many months away. We need to send a strong message to the Department that the first position should be that this circular be withdrawn, that the research begin and matters be let stand for the two or three years that it would take until we come to a conclusion based on the research. That is my party's view.

Chairman

If the Minister is watching she is receiving a strong message from all sides at this meeting. I agree that we must discuss and debate this with the Department before the committee can make a recommendation.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I hope that the Minister is watching because the Department has missed an opportunity by not being able to participate in this debate today. If it is truly interested in children's education regardless of its linguistic medium the Department should participate fully in this debate.

How do the witnesses counter the argument that Gaelscoileanna Teoranta is supporting white élitism? For example, Traveller children and the children of foreign nationals do not go to gaelscoileanna which therefore have a more homogeneous group of pupils. I support finding the way forward but I want to know what is informing the judicial review. Can we be confident that it will bring both sides to the table?

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

The timescale of the judicial review will influence what happens.

Chairman

I ask members not to comment on the workings of the judicial review lest we prejudice it. This committee cannot interfere with the workings of the courts. We can express an opinion on immersion education or disappointment with departmental officials, but we cannot comment in any way on the proceedings of any court's deliberations.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

Surely it is reasonable to ask about the likely timeframe? Will there be a deliberation in one month or six months, or longer?

Chairman

We will try to get that information. It is not available now. I apologise to Deputy Burke who did not get the answer to his question, but I wanted to give him the opportunity to put it again so that it will be fresh in the minds of the delegation.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I will also ask a supplementary question. How many pupils are involved in total immersion education in gaelscoileanna and what percentage of schools are involved in total immersion?

Mr. Micheál Ó Broin

Tá a lán ceisteanna ansin. Maith dom é muna bhfreagraím gach cheann in aon bhabhta amháin, ach tá daoine eile liom. If I cannot answer the question members may interject because there are many aspects to this topic.

I will deal with the last question first. Approximately two thirds of pupils experience early total immersion in some form. We refute the perception of white élitism. It is unfortunate that the question of what is a gaelscoil has been dragged into an argument that is more about the lack of planning by the Department of Education and Science. It is a matter of parental choice. If the research were ongoing, all people in these areas — Irish and non-Irish speakers — would be better informed.

The starting of new gaelscoileanna is based on parental demand. It is unfortunate we are being hounded in a matter with which we have nothing to do. It is more about poor planning and infrastructure.

On the point raised by Senator Healy Eames on total immersion, four hours in an infant classroom and five hours in a normal classroom as Gaeilge, with a certain amount of English, is an unnatural setting. One aim of gaelscoileanna is to extend the amount of Irish to which children have access outside the classroom. The first obvious place is the schoolyard. Anecdotally, and in Dónal Ó hAiniféin's research, many principals note that with the early total immersion model, the amount of Gaeilge spoken in the schoolyard increases — there is more Irish than English. As an organisation we work in conjunction with Comhluadar, Conradh na Gaeilge, Glór na nGael and other organisations to create a situation where we have a social phobal outside the school. It is not a bubble of language immersion for five hours per day but extends beyond that

Mr. Dónall Ó Cónaill

On Deputy Quinn's comment on diversity, Foras Pátrúnachta na scoileanna LánGhaeilge is a patronage and management body. There are schools with a Catholic ethos, an interdenominational one — Catholic and Protestant — and a multidenominational one. There are 54 all-Irish schools and the choice of parents is welcome in each case. In the schools under our patronage, there are several non-nationals attending, who are all happy. In Catholic schools they are happy to integrate with the pupils even in the religion class. They accept the Irish language and there is no problem. In the all-Irish school in Ennis, County Clare, under the principalship of Dónal Ó hAiniféin, several places are put aside for the lucht siúil, Traveller people.

Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin

We are not aware of any legitimate reason for interference from the Department of Education and Science in this matter. On whether there were any lobby groups behind the Minister's decision, initially the National Parents Council at primary level supported the Department. Since then, it has stood back and asked for research on the matter before making a decision. We have the support of the INTO and it is adamant that the research, as recommended by the NCCA, is conducted as soon as possible.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Duibhir

The NCCA put forward its model as an interim measure to support a programme of research and to provide a context for it. The effect of the circular would remove the ability to conduct the research because there would no longer be a variety of practice for comparison. It is important the circular is set aside to allow the research to proceed.

Mr. Micheál Ó Broin

We cannot talk about the judicial review but it provides a window of opportunity for a certain amount of research to be undertaken. It would be unfortunate if the decision is taken based on legal opinion rather than on educational reasons. We are educators and our main interest is in finding a solution based on what is best for the children in our care. We have all children's best interests at heart.

Chairman

Buíochas a ghabháil libh. I hope members and the delegations are happy with this debate and with the information provided.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. sine die.