JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 31 Jan 2008

School Transport: Discussion with Department of Education and Science.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Frank Wyse, assistant secretary, Department of Education and Science, Mr. Liam Hughes, principal officer, school transport section, Mr. Camillus Hogan, assistant principal officer, school transport section, Mr. Tony Dalton, principal officer, school planning section.

I ask Mr. Wyse to make a short presentation on school transport catchment boundaries lasting about ten minutes. Members may then ask questions.

I wish to draw to the attention of witnesses that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not extend to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are once again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment upon, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Frank Wyse

I thank the Chairman of the committee for the opportunity to address the committee on matters relating to school transport catchment areas.

This invitation is timely in view of the commitment in the programme for Government to review the school transport system, including the catchment boundaries. The Department is currently developing proposals for progressing this commitment and the intention is to make substantial progress during the current year.

As members will be aware, school transport, or aspects of the school transport service, have been the subject of a number of reviews within the last two decades, including the committee's own report in 1999. Since that time significant improvements in the service have been introduced. I will outline some of these improvements to place the review of the catchment areas in a broader context.

With effect from 2001 the following improvements were implemented. All primary school children living 3.2 km or more from their nearest suitable school are now eligible for free transport. The previous distinction between children over and under ten years of age has been abolished. The number of eligible primary pupils required to establish a new transport service has been reduced from ten to seven. The threshold for maintaining a service has also been changed. At post-primary level, the combined daily travelling and waiting time has been reduced from a maximum of 2.5 hours. The distance requirement for eligibility for certain transport grants have been reduced to 3.2 km. The qualifying distance for post-primary pupils residing remote from a school bus route was reduced to 3.2 km.

More recent improvements include the establishment in January 2003 of an independent school transport appeals board which is operating successfully and a formal vetting structure for drivers and escorts on all services operating under the school transport scheme.

The areas where the most significant improvements have been brought about relate to special needs and safety. Transport services for children with special educational needs have reflected the significant growth and development of special education provision over the past decade. I emphasise that any review of school transport services involving catchment boundaries will not affect in any way the provision of services for children with special educational needs. Costs are of necessity high in this area but we will continue to ensure the appropriate level of service for these special children is provided.

Safety on school buses is accorded the highest priority by the Department. This is reflected in the significant improvements introduced in recent years. For example, the three-for-two seating arrangement has been fully phased out. Each child has an individual seat with a seat belt. Bus Éireann has hired more than 300 additional vehicles and the company has been authorised to acquire 161 additional buses in order to reduce the age of the school transport fleet. All buses in the school transport scheme are equipped with seat belts. A number of safety campaigns have been launched in order to reiterate and emphasise the issues of safety by way of television, cinema and radio advertisements. This campaign is ongoing in order to drive home the message about the wearing of seat belts.

A warning flashing light system is currently being tested. This is important as statistics indicate that the greatest danger for children is not necessarily when they are on the bus but when they are in the vicinity of the bus, when alighting or boarding the bus. We are conscious of this issue and we will need to make provision for this in the future. There has been a significant increase in expenditure on school transport, with an expenditure of €172 million in 2007. The budget for 2008 is €175 million. This upward pressure on costs will undoubtedly continue as the general costs of school transport increase.

From the outset, the purpose of the school transport scheme was to ensure access to primary and post-primary education for children who, because of where they live, might have difficulty in attending school regularly. At primary level, eligibility for transport is determined on the basis of distance criteria to the nearest suitable school. At post-primary level, eligibility is based on both distance and residence in a particular catchment area. These areas have their origins in the establishment of free post-primary education in the late 1960s and were determined following consultation with schools and local educational interests. I will return to that point later because it is important.

For the purposes of planning the provision of school transport, the country was divided into approximately 300 geographic districts each with a number of primary schools feeding into a post-primary centre with one or more post-primary schools. Members will be aware that in rural Ireland generally, the majority of towns have a boys' school, a girls' school and possibly a vocational school. This was the traditional model which is still widespread but changes have taken place. The reason for these defined catchment areas is to facilitate the orderly planning of the accommodation needs of existing and new schools as well as to facilitate the operation of post-primary school transport services on a rational and cost-effective basis. At post-primary level, eligible pupils are generally given transport to and from the post-primary centre serving the catchment area in which they live. While parents are free to send their children to any school they wish, the school transport scheme is not intended to provide an open-ended choice of transport to a range of different schools.

There is some degree of choice within the current scheme, however, in that post-primary pupils who are eligible for school transport to the post-primary centre in their catchment area may, under certain conditions, get transport to attend a school in a different catchment area. This is usually referred to as catchment boundary transport, an issue of which I am sure the committee will be aware. It is offered if there are spare seats available on the relevant bus after all the eligible pupils have been accommodated. Approximately 8,500 post-primary pupils avail of catchment boundary transport and this represents just over 11% of post-primary pupils using transport under the scheme.

Catchment boundary pupils are not guaranteed school transport indefinitely. Rather, transport in such instances is dependent on the availability of spare seats on the buses used to transport eligible students. Any such additional capacity is allocated on a term-to-term basis, which can give rise to difficulties. Catchment boundary pupils are required to pay the same contributions as eligible post-primary pupils to avail of school transport and are responsible for getting to the nearest pick-up point inside the relevant boundary.

As I have already said, we have done considerable preliminary work for the review and we envisage commencing the actual review very quickly. We intend to approach this review with an open mind and in a constructive way. At the same time, we do not underestimate the complexities involved in the review and the challenges that are likely to arise.

Without wishing in any way to pre-empt the work of the review, I would like to mention a few of the issues likely to arise. While changes to catchment areas may benefit some schools, they could also mean a reduction in the size of the catchment area for others. Where the Department has changed catchment areas in the past, as for example when a new school has been built requiring a redivision of some of the existing catchment areas, there has been considerable anxiety about the negative effects on enrolments on the part of existing schools losing some of their catchment areas. Boards of management and principals are likely to oppose any change of boundary configuration which they perceive to be to their disadvantage. Obviously, any general review has the potential to generate more widespread disquiet. This is equally the case regarding students and their parents.

Changes to catchment boundaries may benefit some but they may also discommode others. Even if we phase in changes in respect of existing students to ensure they are not inconvenienced, the Department is aware there are existing patterns of transport and any attempt to change boundaries which will give effect to changes in patterns of transport is likely to cause some anxiety among parents. Even relatively minor changes in enrolment patterns arising from a change in catchment areas can, over time, affect the viability of some schools. Small rural schools are vulnerable to any changes in enrolment patterns. This is an anxiety transmitted constantly, particularly by the smaller schools. We constantly get representation from small, especially rural, schools. Any perceived potential change will give rise to anxiety.

The task of planning school accommodation could be made more difficult with the possibility of an accommodation surplus in some areas and a shortfall in others. This could create an artificial demand for additional capital funding at a time when the Department is fully committed to a major programme of investment in the existing stock of schools. There is potential for increased costs if changes are made to the catchment boundaries, particularly if services criss-cross. At present, school transport journeys account for approximately 82 million km over the course of an academic year and the cost of the service in 2008 will be €175 million.

The proposed review provides the Department with a good opportunity to tease out some of these issues in a concentrated way. Many of the issues I have addressed and the fears that are likely to be engendered in some of the schools can be overcome by a thorough and meaningful process of consultation with all the interested bodies, including the individual schools as well as the management bodies themselves. We intend to include the necessity for consultation as part of the terms of reference of any review of catchment boundaries. The Department will complete its work in preparation for this review at an early date and I look forward to the observations of the committee today. We intend taking these observations on board as appropriate during the course of the review.

That concludes my presentation. I hope we will be able to answer any questions raised by members of the committee.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Wyse. I understand many Deputies and Senators are interested in asking questions. In this context the lead speaker from the main Opposition party is Deputy Feighan. Each member will be given five minutes which should be adequate to ask questions and make comments. If members go over this time, I will need to remind them.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the officials from the Department of Education and Science and I thank them for their presentation. For a rural Deputy the issue of school transport is a vexed question. Over the years we have made many representations to change boundaries. There appears to be resistance in the Department to making changes. On one occasion a change was made, but it took about three years even though the matter had been agreed between schools, parents and students. It took approximately three years by the time inspectors came out by which time the children with whom we were dealing had almost left school. We need a quicker process of change.

I am delighted that seat belts have been fitted to school transport in recent years because it was a very serious issue. I am also pleased that the capacity has been increased. Some students with special educational needs are required to travel past their schools. This is another issue where I have met resistance. While eventually we got the issue resolved, it took five or six months.

The last boundary review took place in the 1960s and the Department has been using this template for some time. We are all aware of the changes to the demographics in the country. We have all been anticipating this review. However, from what we have been told today, I do not believe the Department has any intention of reviewing the boundaries. Perhaps the Department officials would take on board what we are saying because some boundaries need to be changed. I accept that if boundaries are changed it could have an impact. The Department should be more flexible in changing the boundaries.

I accept that safety of school transport is important and that the buses are equipped with seat belts, etc. The real danger to children travelling on buses relates to the set-down and pick-up points. I do not believe enough has been done to make those points much safer. Studies have been done on visibility, for example. I understand that the Department undertook a successful pilot scheme in County Clare. It involved a survey of the safety of various pick-up points. Coincidentally or otherwise, the study was based in the constituency of the then Minister of State with responsibility for school transport. Why have similar measures not been rolled out throughout the country? The current Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, said he intends to implement the system. If the pilot scheme was successful, why has it not been implemented in other parts of the country, in the interests of the safety of our children? What is the Department doing to that end? The safety of those who use school transport is a serious matter. Everyone at this meeting is anxious to resolve this problem. The voices of some people are not being heard. I ask the Department to be flexible.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I welcome the departmental officials to this meeting. I would like to take up the point made by Deputy Feighan about pick-up points. Some of the points were determined historically. Children from a certain family might have got on the school bus at a point outside their home. That point might still be used many years later, even though those children no longer use the school bus service. Children from a family further up the road have to use the existing pick-up point, even when there is a more convenient or safer point nearer their home. The rules state that children may have to walk a certain distance before they are collected by a bus. A location nearer their home might be safer than the official pick-up point.

Will the review be used as a blunt instrument? That is the fundamental question I am asking. I hope local thoughts and feedback will be taken into account within the review. Those undertaking the review should bear in mind the representations we have made within the system over the years. The vast majority of children in the area I represent get on the school bus in very rural areas. A great deal of new housing has been built in all such areas. The little bóithríns on which children stand are not wider than they used to be. They are much more dangerous than they used to be, however, because they are being used by many more cars, which travel at faster speeds. Who is responsible for installing shelters to stop children getting wet when it is raining? We also need to protect children from traffic.

All members of the committee have dealt with the cases of children who live 0.1 km on the wrong side of the school transport boundary. Such cases will always arise, regardless of where we set the boundary. It is hard to give an example of the historical aspect of the changes. All the children in a given area may have attended the same school until it closed, which may have been 30 or 40 years ago. Some families in the area might send their children to a school in one direction, while other families send their children to a school in the opposite direction. What happens in such cases when a new school is built? Do families have to send their children to the new school because it is the nearest school to them? In such cases, the new school would not be the school which was traditionally attended by members of the family following the closure of the other school decades earlier. It is difficult to explain, but I am sure the officials understand because they have been in the game for a long time.

We will continue to perpetuate these problems if we use catchment areas as a blunt instrument. I am thinking of a particular case in which a school closed and a family which had been going in a certain direction ever since could no longer do so. I am talking about the grandchildren of those who were originally affected by the closure. The authorities in the school which the children are being asked to attend have said they do not mind if the children continue to attend their natural school. The school authorities have issued a letter of release, but that is not of any use from a school transport perspective because the children are not attending their nearest school.

I reiterate my fundamental question — how much interaction will take place at local level when decisions are being made about catchment areas and pick-up points? The more local consultation that takes place, the better. I appreciate that hundreds of thousands of miles are involved in this, across every parish in Ireland. The significant problems being experienced by some families may seem small to the Department, but they are big for those affected by them.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the officials from the Department. It is important that we are reviewing school transport catchment boundaries after such a long time. We would all like to see a quick resolution to these problems, but I do not think that is possible in this instance. I welcome the Department's decision to initiate a process of consultation. As Senator Keaveney just said, if we continue to use broad terminology to get this to fit, it will not make any difference. That is why it is important that we provide for local input and local consultation.

I would like to highlight an issue in my local area with which I am familiar. I will not mention any names. Like all VECs, the local VEC in my home county has a liaison officer. If such officers are to be seen to be fair, they must be independent of the various educational bodies. As an officer is usually the CEO of the local VEC, he or she tends to have a vested interest. It is important that such people be independent. There is an allowance for it. Things must change if we are to be seen to treat all concerned in a fair and transparent manner.

The Department undertook an in-depth study of the schooling needs of the south Galway area following the recent increase in population. That should be done at local level throughout the country, especially where there has been serious population growth. There will have to be serious consultation with the principals of the various schools. Various principals in the area got stuck in as soon as they found out the review was taking place. That is on the record of the Department — we have seen it. They sent deputations to the Department to say certain things could not happen. They argued that existing schools, as opposed to schools which have been proposed, were entitled to the first bite of the cherry. The Department faces a huge task in changing such attitudes.

In fairness to Bus Éireann, it has been tremendous on the ground. When problems arise, however, it tends to say it has no room for manoeuvre because it has to abide by the Department's framework. It is strangled. The Department should give Bus Éireann some flexibility to do the proper thing. Bus Éireann should have the freedom to do the right things simply and well. If it were allowed to do so, it would be able to eliminate much of the hassle associated with school transport.

There are problems with some of the existing boundary maps in places like south-east Galway. The catchment area for Woodford, for example, incorporates part of County Tipperary. It goes across Lough Derg. That is how it is actually presented physically on the map. It bears no resemblance to the reality of the situation. The catchment boundaries for school pupils make no sense as they are operated at present. We accept that those within a catchment area should be given priority. What realistically happens, although it tends to be in the background, is that students living in the hinterland of a school have to go to another school because they are a couple of hundred yards down the road from where the line is drawn. Such problems are rampant in rural areas.

Mr. Wyse said in his report that the review will not satisfy everybody. He accepts that mass meetings of parents will be orchestrated by principals who are worried about losing pupils. The Department will have to show some flexibility when it is conducting this serious review. It will have to consider the pupil and teacher numbers in the schools which will be affected. The review must have a built-in concession for schools which may lose out. Likewise, an appropriate concession must be offered to schools in which pupil numbers will increase as a result. While the review is welcome, the task will be difficult if consultation is not localised or transparent. Moreover, it must be completed quickly.

As Deputy Feighan stated, it is vital to quickly extend the pilot scheme on safety initiated in County Clare. I have serious reservations about the safety of many of the vehicles being used by contractors providing school transport services. It is fortunate that accidents have not occurred. I ask the officials to seek assurances from Bus Éireann in this regard.

Given the numbers of children using school transport, the Department must consider having an assistant on school buses. Children do not always sit in their seats and the bus driver cannot control some of the activities taking place on some buses. When schools or parents query the reason a school pupil has been put off a bus, it is not fair that the bus driver should become involved in the matter because it should not be considered his function.

Deputy Mary Wallace

Departmental officials have done a wonderful job on school safety, especially by abolishing the practice of having three pupils sharing two seats, which was a major safety issue for people in County Meath. The pilots scheme for the warning flashing light is also an important measure but the system needs to be tweaked. I am concerned when I see children being dropped off by a school bus on a busy regional road or national primary route on the opposite side of the road from their homes and have had personal experience of a tragedy in County Meath resulting from this practice. When we used to take the school bus we were always dropped off in our gateway event, although the roads were not as busy as nowadays.

Many children must now cross the road when they are dropped off by the school bus. The pilot scheme for the warning flashing light system will be of assistance in this regard. In the United States one cannot pass a school bus when children are alighting. Years ago, safety was fine because there were fewer cars on country roads but nowadays cars pass school buses at speed while children are coming around the back of the bus. This is a major problem. Would it add greatly to journey times if children were dropped off in the gateways of their homes? It would be worth considering implementing such a measure on regional roads and national primary routes.

The reason I chose to attend the meeting is that I received two letters from parents regarding the new Ratoath post-primary school. The letters set out the concerns of two feeder schools, the Curraha and Rathbeggan national schools. While pupils live more than three miles from the new Ratoath College, they cannot take a bus to the school because an insufficient number of them live in the catchment area. Seven pupils must live in the catchment area. In the parish of Curraha the board of management, parish priest and many others have become involved in this issue. They studied the catchment boundary on the map and concluded that the parish will never have seven children in the catchment area, despite the fact that all of sixth class will attend the new college. In the correspondence, which has been circulated, they ask that the boundary be moved to include the townlands of Crickstown, Coolfore and Irishtown. I ask the officials to contact the VEC to request the catchment boundary between Ratoath and Ashbourne be tweaked. I concur with Deputy Ulick Burke that taking a one-size-fits-all approach is difficult and minor tweaking of catchment boundaries makes a major difference.

The new post-primary school in Ratoath has raised many issues, especially as there are three other post-primary schools in the area. The new inner relief road has not yet been opened,which means a number of children are not considered to be within the three mile catchment area although the position would change if the road were open. Children must be able to go from gate to gate. Until the road is opened, it should be possible to be flexible regarding the catchment area. Children who live more than three miles from school should be able to get school transport.

In some cases, younger siblings of children who use school transport have been refused school transport because they attend the new school. This set of circumstances arises when a new school is built. County Meath does not experience the problems other parts of the country have when a new school opens and the numbers attending established schools declines. The problem in our case is that all the county's schools have too many pupils because it is the fastest growing commuter area in the country. Flexibility is needed regarding catchment areas and, in the case of Ratoath, the inner relief road.

These problems arise due to the conflict between the feeder school rule and the rule on attending the nearest school within one's catchment area. The new post-primary school in Ratoath has three feeder primary schools. One would expect sixth class children in a feeder school who live more than three miles from the post-primary school to be able to access school transport. For this reason, it may be necessary to regard being a pupil in a feeder school as a qualifying criterion. Having catch-all systems is difficult but could make a difference in this case because children living four or five miles from the school who attend a feeder primary school cannot access school transport to take them to the post-primary as they live in the catchment area of a different post-primary school.

The Department has made considerable progress on school transport, especially on safety, and is doing a marvellous job. I would like more done on the pilot scheme for flashing lights and safety for children alighting from school buses. Boarding the bus is not a problem as parents often accompany smaller children to the bus.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I, too, welcome the officials from the Department. As many of the issues I intended to raise have been discussed by other speakers, I do not propose to labour these points. However, I stress that is of vital importance that TLOs are independent. I have had cause to be concerned about the independence of the TLO in the past. In the school in which I taught, enrolment was a topical issue. When people have a vested interest in several schools, it is difficult to maintain their independence. The two issues, therefore, must be separated.

The officials will be aware of the position in County Monaghan regarding cross-county boundaries. We have children in the county who wish to attend a school in Monaghan but live in the catchment area of a school in a different county. If they choose to attend school in the county, they do not have access to school transport services and must walk three or three and a half miles on dangerous roads in the summer and winter to get a bus to bring them to a school in Ballybay, which is perceived to be their local school. Some flexibility, logic and consideration must be shown in this regard because the catchment boundary in this case means children must attend school in a different county. This creates a major safety issue for children who decide to attend school in their own county because they must walk to a pick-up point for the bus to the school in Ballybay. I appeal for a resolution to this problem.

Another case relates to children who have to get two buses to school, while at the same time a bus on which there is spare capacity comes into the area to pick up children nearby to go to a private fee paying Protestant school. The parents have no difficulty in paying and yet we cannot seem to get any movement on the matter. Again, there is an issue of safety because these children get on one bus, get off at a very dangerous junction and then have to get on another bus. These are the type of issues all members have mentioned. I am happy to forward details to the officials and perhaps we can bring them to a conclusion.

Given the changing rural landscape where there are now more houses, the need arises for buses in areas which up to now did not need one, as previously children were able to access school because they lived close to it. I refer to small rural schools. In one case, if a bus is not provided children will go to school in another jurisdiction as they are close to the Border and their nearest school is over the Border. The cross-county boundary issue needs to be examined to ensure that all our children are kept within our jurisdiction so that they can avail of our educational system.

Senator Pearse Doherty

I welcome the officials. I also welcome the fact that this review is taking place. It is probably long overdue. It will be difficult to get the review right. I expect that when it is completed we will all be back again looking for the boundaries to be changed. Difficulties will arise in any review when one has to draw lines. Patterns of development change, as do age profiles in various towns and villages and there will be a need to tweak boundaries. One of the flaws of the system that is in place is that it is very difficult to get changes implemented. In any review we should build in a system where we can have a rapid response to the changing needs of a community without the need to have a major review all over again.

I have come across a number of issues that need to be addressed. I agree with the officials that the change in catchment boundaries could cause difficulties in many communities. The key to making sure we get it right is to have consultation. It is good to build in consultation into the terms of reference, however, it is important to advertise this not only in national newspapers but in schools. Perhaps schools can act as an agent to inform parents, as communities need to be aware of what is happening within their catchment boundaries. I would like to see sufficient time and scope for real consultation. Can the officials indicate whether there is a timeframe as to when consultation will take place and when it is expected that the review will be completed?

Senator Keaveney referred to bus shelters. I live in Donegal close to the Six Counties. If one travels through the Six Counties one sees bus shelters in urban and rural areas. Donegal County Council passed a motion some months ago to examine how these bus shelters had been developed. It emerged that it was at no cost to the Department as a private company built the bus shelters and put advertising on them. Not only did the company do this in urban areas but also in rural areas. It would be almost impossible to have a bus shelter at every pick-up point but there are parts of rural areas that could accommodate bus shelters. This is a scheme that we should examine as children walk to pick-up points and given the weather, many of them arrive at school wet and cold. We should facilitate this, especially if it is at no extra cost to the Department.

I have concerns regarding the difficulty of getting a bus route changed. In some cases, especially in rural areas, the bus has been following the same route for years. The children who are availing of the bus on a particular route live within the catchment area and have to walk 2 km to the pick-up point, but it would be far more sensible if the bus could take a different route as this would reduce the journey time on pupils and would not put them out to such an extent. In one case, there were a lot of children on a particular road 20 years ago but that is no longer the case. Now more children live on a neighbouring road but it has not been possible to get the bus route changed. This issue needs to be addressed within the review process.

Travel time and waiting times for post-primary students can amount to two and a half hours. Primary pupils also have a travel and waiting time. The travel time is acceptable but we need to examine the waiting times. In many rural areas the same school buses accommodate both primary and secondary schools. This can result in children being dropped at school half an hour before the school opens and picked up half an hour after the school has closed. Serious issues arise for boards of management because school grounds are not insured after 3 p.m. Boards of management say they have no responsibility for the children on their premises after that time. The Department has said it is up to the boards of management. As a result, a stand-off has arisen and young children are being left unsupervised on school grounds. This issue needs to be addressed. In many cases it is very simple, we should not allow bus operators to provide two services at the same time. There are enough private bus operators to provide a service to the school and they are getting paid by the Department per mile. There is no reason this issue cannot be addressed in this review.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the officials. I do not envy them their task. Two years ago I was chair of County Galway VEC and I had to find bus tickets for approximately 500 children. It was a nightmare situation. Seat belts were one issue but the major concern related to catchment boundaries.

A review is welcome and necessary. It is 40 years since the catchment boundaries were put in place and there have been changes in demographics and settlement areas. Senator Doherty referred to many issues which concern me also, especially the bus routes. This matter needs to be examined.

I frequently hear from families where up to three children in a family have applied for bus tickets. The response can be to offer bus tickets to two children and it is up to the family to decide which child it should leave out. This is pathetic. The response from CIE is that the third child will be accommodated if space allows. When the families go to the bus stop to monitor the situation they find there are many free spaces on the bus because not everyone with a bus ticket uses it. In the long run we usually get such problems sorted but there should be rules governing family applications. One cannot split up families going to the same school.

What is the current rule on children attending special schools? In some areas I meet parents who tell me there are bus escorts but I am not sure whether they are paid for privately. I have had many representations in the past nine months, especially while canvassing for the general election, drawing attention to quite serious circumstances in which disabled children of 18 years of age attending special schools are minding everyone else on the bus, who range in age from four to 18. I refer to a case in the Spiddal-Oughterard-Galway city catchment area which involves a long journey that takes some hours to complete.

I support Deputy Burke's call for assistance on buses travelling to mainstream schools rather than special schools. A lot of jig-acting and unruly behaviour takes place on buses. The main problem that arises with seatbelts is getting passengers to wear them. The bus driver cannot monitor this. His job is to drive and watch the road rather than trying to figure out the identity of the boy or girl causing trouble. The person one picks on may not be the person who caused the trouble, thereby creating another argument. To protect the child and bus driver and to prevent legal cases involving the Department, a very strong recommendation has been made to employ an assistant on each bus. Such assistants would be well occupied.

I welcome the pilot initiative on flashing warning lights. Many years ago I taught in New York where flashing lights were always used. They were very effective in that all the traffic stopped behind the bus until the children alighted or got on.

I will not elaborate on bus routes because they were mentioned by Senator Doherty. The issue of catchment boundaries became significant for us in Galway. Is there a ruling to allow parents to send their children to a single-sex school in a different catchment area if there is a mixed school within their catchment area? Deputy Ulick Burke will remember an arrangement whereby a child could be brought to a certain point on the route and then picked up by the public transport service for the adjoining catchment area. However, the nature of the boundary was such that they could be left out. Circumstances obtained in which boys could get into the school of choice — the all-boys school — while their sisters could not be sent to an all-girls school as there was a school in their catchment area. Problems arise where some family members can be sent to their school of choice while others cannot.

The issue of the liaison officer is very tricky and needs to be approached sensitively and carefully, bearing in mind the need for no bias and for transparency and accountability.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the officials for attending and commend them for the improvements in safety, including the one-child, one-seat policy.

Deputy Burke referred to having assistants on the buses. Having had a post of responsibility in which I dealt with problems on buses and bullying, I agree with the call for assistants or the installation of cameras on buses. The job of bus drivers is to drive the buses and get the students to and from their schools. They are not and should not be expected to be skilled in dealing with bullying and other such behaviour on buses. Whatever approach one takes, whether it involves assistants or cameras, one must acknowledge that major issues arise on buses. Bullying is a significant problem in other domains but needs to be addressed in this context also.

Senator Doherty referred to the times at which children are picked up. Many parents feel hard done by because the bus picks up their children at 8 a.m., thereby necessitating their getting out of bed at 7 a.m. Furthermore, they are the last to be dropped off in the evening. Logically, one would assume that those picked up first in the morning would be the first to be dropped home. Insurance is an issue where this problem occurs but so too are lifestyle and diet. It is a long day for students if they do not get home until 5.30 p.m. or 6 p.m., at which time they need to study. This must be taken into consideration in the review. The review is very welcome. It presents a difficult, if not impossible, task but it must be taken on. Consultation is the key.

There is no logic to some of the pick-up points in spite of the fact that some changes have been made. Consultation with parents is required in this regard. A catchment boundary was created in my constituency in Mayo around the 1960s and children living there had the option of going to a school on either side. For some reason the system was changed such that the balance was tipped in favour of one school rather than the other. The parents do not want to discriminate against any school and want to retain the choice that existed. The change was made to address a safety issue arsing in respect of the pick-up point. I have encountered genuine safety cases in which it was not possible to pick up children at their house or 20 yd. to 50 yd. therefrom. The main challenge in the review is to address the lack of flexibility and logic. Consultation with parents is very important in this regard. I hope there will be a good outcome but the task is very difficult and much time and thought will have to be devoted to it.

Deputy Joe Behan

I agree with the assistant secretary on the point that the review has the potential to seriously destabilise the national education system if it is not handled properly. There are problems throughout the country and I would not underestimate the task being undertaken. Change is always difficult to effect and managing it, as will be required of the delegates, will present a considerable challenge. Consultation will all the relevant sectors will be vital.

Will the delegates set out their timescale for the review and list its components? Will this committee be involved in any formal way as the review proceeds? Will it be able to assess progress and have an input into the Department's deliberations? Is this also a review of catchment areas to plan for new schools and school accommodation, given that a representative from the planning unit is present?

Chairman

Mr. Wyse stated that catchment areas "have their origins in the establishment of free post-primary education in the late 1960s and were determined following consultation with schools and local educational interests". Did these interests not concern mainly the Catholic Church, Church of Ireland, vocational education committees and the religious orders in the late 1960s? Since then, however, there has been a preponderance of community schools, starting in the 1970s, the gaelscoil movement has grown exponentially, Educate Together has expanded to unprecedented levels and has moved into the second level sector and populations have grown and declined in various areas, such that the catchment areas and the service required, even with tweaking, bear no resemblance to those of the late 1960s. Schools and local educational interests are now more varied and need to be considered afresh. The best transport system needs to be devised even if this causes hassle and gets people's backs up in the schools concerned. There will be winners and losers but the most efficient service must be provided instead of sticking plasters on the problem as is the case now.

Is the Department considering the urban school bus service in areas such as I represent? Many students have to travel outside their own towns because of the lack of school places and the Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann service does not always serve them. Does the review's remit cover the possibility of a new wide-scale review, the first since the late 1960s, or is it narrow?

I thank the witnesses for their time and attention to the contributions and queries from members. I appreciate it takes time to digest these but ask the witnesses to respond relatively briefly. There may be a theme in many of the queries. I apologise for the delay but members were very eager and this session has generated a higher level of interest than many others, including among people who are not committee members. There may be room for brief supplementary queries after the witnesses have responded.

Mr. Frank Wyse

The Minister and the Department are committed to holding a review. We have done significant preliminary work over recent weeks on this and intend to assign someone internal to work on it. We must consult the schools and local interests, including parent bodies nationally and locally. We will not put an advertisement in the newspapers but this will be a meaningful process in which we listen to what people say about the system and receive feedback on the issues. That will not take place quickly but we have begun the work and it will continue over a period of months. There is a great deal of work to do.

Members have raised many issues of which we are conscious and we have noted them, such as Senator Doherty's question about bus shelters, which is worth considering. The programme for Government includes a commitment to review the school transport scheme, including the catchment boundaries, but that does not preclude covering other issues.

Transport for students with special needs will remain a priority and must be geared specifically towards the needs of the children such that we do not treat them with a broad brush. The requirements of each child must be considered.

Chairman

I apologise for interrupting Mr. Wyse but I must speak soon in the Dáil and the Vice Chairman is unavailable. I propose Deputy Joe Behan as Acting Chairman.

Senator Pearse Doherty

I second the proposal.

Chairman

As there are no other nominations I declare Deputy Behan duly elected as Acting Chairman. I will return in approximately ten minutes.

Deputy Joe Behan took the Chair.

Mr. Frank Wyse

Pick-up points are a contentious issue and must be included. Certain pick-up points are associated with catchment boundaries and the two must be considered together in consultation with Bus Éireann which has expertise in this matter. Safety is paramount.

The Department will consult bodies such as Educate Together and any other new patron bodies as a matter of routine. The transport liaison officers are a useful source of information on local issues for the Department but not the only one. We interact with individual schools and local Bus Éireann inspectors. The transport liaison officers often have to refer to the Department on specific issues. They do not have carte blanche to operate as they wish locally but I acknowledge the views of the committee on the independence of the transport liaison officers who are also officers of the vocational education committee and we can examine this in the review.

The closed-school areas relate to primary schools. The relevance of a closed school area is questionable if the school has been closed for 30 or 35 years since a process of closure in the early 1960s. Those closed-school areas date back in some cases to the late 1960s and early 1970s. It is timely to examine if this is of relevance and what is achieved by insisting on closed-school areas. Mr. Hogan is familiar with some of the more routine issues.

Mr. Camillus Hogan

I am familiar with Senator Keaveney's description of closed-school areas. Viability issues for small schools must be taken into account. Some two-teacher schools depend on transport under the closed-school rule. If we were to change the rule overnight, there could be viability issues for such schools. It is a matter we must take into account very carefully before we attempt to change the rule. As Mr. Wyse said, it is a matter that will be examined in the review, particularly for areas where the closed-school rule has operated for the past 30 years.

Deputy Feighan raised the issue of children with special needs and their bus passing the nearest school to their home. The Department spends approximately one third of its budget, €175 million, on transporting 8,000 children with special needs, 6% of the total number of children availing of school transport. We provide transport to the school nearest to the parents' home.

Pick-up points tend to be a contentious issue. People want an improved service and to be picked up at the point nearest to their home. There is a certain distance that people must travel to a pick-up point under the primary and post-primary schemes. Safety at pick-up points has been of permanent importance to the Department and Bus Éireann. We would be extremely concerned if it was suggested a pick-up point was unsafe. The Department would be the first on to Bus Éireann if such an issue arose.

Approximately 1,200 escorts are employed by schools to transport children with special educational needs, at a cost of €13 million per annum. We rely on recommendations from professionals on the employment of escorts.

A member of the committee asked about the rule on catchment boundary transport services for children attending schools outside their catchment area. It is a contentious issue. As Mr. Wyse stated, approximately 8,500 children are availing of the catchment boundary transport scheme to travel to schools outside their catchment area. Parents who choose to send their children to a school outside the catchment area have an opportunity to avail of school transport. To become a candidate for this category, one must be eligible for transport in the catchment area in which one resides, 4.85 km from the post-primary centre of the catchment area. The Department, through Bus Éireann, tries to facilitate as many children in this position as possible if there is a spare seat on a bus going to the post-primary centre of a particular catchment area. It tends to be an issue concerning choices. Transport to the post-primary centre of the catchment area in which one resides will be provided if one decides to send one's children to it.

The position on cameras on buses to ensure discipline is an issue. A code of conduct has been agreed between the Department and Bus Éireann on discipline on school buses. Bus Éireann has 50 new buses which have CCTV and the scheme has proved very successful. The Department will explore options to improve it.

Mr. Liam Hughes

Escorts on buses are provided to support children with special educational needs, with some 1,200 in place. One difficulty is presented by the mechanism for engaging escorts. The individual school is assigned an escort and the Department grant-aids the school to pay the escort. What is emerging as a difficulty is that some schools are not prepared to take on an escort as they see liability issues arising. Even though there may be an identified need, there can be a problem in providing the service. Some members referred to instances where there was a glaring need for escort support on a school bus. That is the reason it cannot be provided. We must examine this issue in the review.

A second phase of the pilot scheme for the warning flashing light system is up and running at three locations — Castlebar, County Mayo, Ferbane, County Offaly and Carnew, County Wicklow. A firm of consultants contracted to Bus Éireann has analysed traffic patterns in those three areas before the flashing light system was introduced. They are either in place or being put in place and will measure their "before and after" effect.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe Behan)

Of what does the flashing light system consist?

Mr. Liam Hughes

It is a system of warning lights on the school bus which are activated when it is indicated that the bus is pulling in at a pick-up point. They stay activated until the vehicle pulls off and the indicator is cancelled. A flashing light at the rear of the vehicle displays a message. In the first pilot phase, the messages conveyed were "Slow" and "20 mph". This time, because of technical difficulties as regards specifying a speed limit, the message is "Slow" alternating with the international boy-girl pictogram or logo associated with schools. On the front of the vehicle the headlights flash alternately on and off. That is the mechanism in place.

Acting Chairman

I suggest we first deal with the answers. As the Chairman indicated that any supplementaries should be dealt with as quickly as possible are there any other points that Mr. Hughes would like to make?

Mr. Liam Hughes

In a final point I will address the issue raised by Senator Keaveney about the safety of vehicles involved in the scheme, in particular contractors' vehicles. Bus Éireann places enormous emphasis on the safety of vehicles and the company's maintenance schedule is up to the best international standard. As regards contractors, all vehicles are expected to comply with statutory requirements. All vehicles with more than eight passenger places over one year old are inspected before receiving a certificate of road worthiness. I understand the Minister for Transport is reviewing the whole area of road worthiness, through the Road Safety Authority.

Mr. Camillus Hogan

I wanted to return to one point in particular, as I am not sure that every member of the committee is aware of it. We do not have catchment areas at primary level, only at post-primary level. I wanted to make that clear.

Mr. Frank Wyse

The Vice Chairman said the review had the potential to be destabilising. If we approach it in the proper way, as he said, with a process of consultation, we will do our research, put the issues to people and listen to the responses. There are issues as regards the way specific bus routes operate, which can only be dealt with at the local level. There are wider issues, as well, which we do not underestimate. For example, should we say parents can have the choice of bypassing schools in order to send their children to a single sex establishment? That is a legitimate question to ask. The question has also been raised as to whether children should bypass a substantial number of schools to go to one which has better accommodation. That, too, is a legitimate question. If a school that is near is lacking in accommodation, what role should the school transport system play in bringing children to schools where there is adequate room? We do not want to pre-empt the answers to such questions. I do not want to be saying in effect, "This is what the Department thinks and this is the way we are going to operate". We genuinely have to listen to what people have to say.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I am pleased some of the issues have been clarified. I agree with Deputy Behan that this has to be handled in the correct way as it could destabilise some situations. I want to come back to the question of the pilot scheme in Clare, three years ago. How many locations were designated there? Despite it being such a success, as the Minister indicated, the Department has not shown great urgency in extending it around the country. Will Mr. Hughes elaborate on that and perhaps clarify whether it has been as successful as was claimed?

Mr. Liam Hughes

The original phase of the pilot scheme was related to school transport services into Ennis, County Clare. We decided to proceed with a second phase of the pilot because it was considered that Ennis per se might not be fully representative of the types of transport situations that could be found more generally. We therefore selected three further locations, Castlebar, Ferbane and Carnew, which were thought to be representative of the generality of transport arrangements. We are satisfied that when that pilot is completed in the course of this year, we shall be able to make a definitive call as to whether warning flashing lights should form part of the suite of safety arrangements in the school transport scheme.

Deputy Frank Feighan

A pilot scheme is a pilot scheme. Is Mr. Hughes telling the committee that Ennis was perhaps a wrong location in which to have such a scheme? A second pilot scheme was put in place in various areas in the country which represent the typical school catchment area. Would he agree that perhaps Ennis was the wrong location in which to have the first pilot scheme? How many pilot schemes will we need and how long will it take before we implement proper safety measures at pick-up points around the country? This is very grave situation and it has not been addressed as seriously as we would like.

Mr. Liam Hughes

We can assure the Deputy that when the current phase of the pilot is completed, we will be able to make a definitive call on the system.

Mr. Frank Wyse

Other related issues are of wider implication. For example, what is the attitude drivers must legally adopt in circumstances where they see the flashing lights? The question of legislation with regard to speed limits, etc., in the vicinity of school buses is another issue on which we need to have discussion with our colleagues. Every single bus has flashing lights and the question is what the response should be and what is the law on penalties that might apply to those who do not adhere? In the United States drivers have to slow down, I believe, to 20 mph in the vicinity of a bus with flashing lights. That is underpinned by legislation. There is a wider issue to be addressed once we know the type of flashing lights and the means of putting them into operation. However, we are committed to putting it into place.

Deputy Paul Gogarty took the Chair.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

As regards the safety of the buses and the treatment of the age profile of the fleet, I acknowledge that it is clever to put seat belts into relatively new buses. However, to put them into very old buses is not, perhaps, the best way to spend money. I want to take up Mr. Hughes's point to the effect that the Department of Transport might be looking into this overall issue. Would the officials from the Department of Education have a view on the self-regulation of some of the independent bus operators? They are probably aware that Bus Éireann vehicles must undergo that company's tests and in many instances have NCT-type tests as well. Not all contract operators are in this jurisdiction and therefore some operate their own programmes for bus inspections. If there is to be a change, can he foresee a situation whereby all buses will be required to have some level of inspection, so that the public can be assured they are being independently vetted?

Deputy John O’Mahony

I want to return to the question of road safety at the pick-up points. I have a quick question and an observation. If a road safety officer in a county makes a recommendation that a pick-up point is not safe, is that then changed? I have an example where a road safety officer made a recommendation but the request to go 50 m down the road to collect children at their house was refused. The officials all appear to be reasonable. On another issue, where a pick-up point was changed on the grounds of road safety, 20 or 30 parents must now bring their children an extra couple of kilometres to a new pick-up. I want to get a sense of the effect of the road safety issue.

Mr. Camillus Hogan

Road safety is of paramount importance to the Department of Education and Science and Bus Éireann. If the Deputy knows of a particular case, he should bring it to the attention of the local inspector of Bus Éireann immediately.

Deputy John O’Mahony

That has been done and the recommendation from the road safety officer is there.

Chairman

I suggest that could be discussed after the meeting.

Deputy Ulick Burke

Mr. Hogan said there are no catchment areas for primary schools but, that said, there is a closed-school area and there are serious problems between that mix. Access to the traditional school for particular families is now being denied to them because of a parish boundary or some other boundary that is being imposed in rural areas and strictly adhered to due to the decreased viability of a school, the loss of teachers, reduced school numbers and so on. This issue needs close examination.

A huge resource is tied up in the school bus fleet, which is used 183 days per year. With the co-operation of other Departments, in particular the Department of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, that fleet could be availed of, if organised, and could supplement the overall costing. We are spending an additional €3 million this year on rural transport. Could we consider incorporating some of this for use in some areas, if not on a widespread basis?

Senator Pearse Doherty

I want to touch on the issue of the pilot schemes, which is very exciting. We analysed the results of the pilot scheme in Ennis and I understand another will be undertaken elsewhere due to differences in geography and so on. Did the scheme in Ennis prove a success? Based on it, was there a recommendation that this initiative would be rolled out for areas like Ennis?

Has there been an analysis of the financial implications of rolling out the scheme of flashing warning lights for all of the school fleet and the private contractors providing school transport? I ask this bearing in mind that legislation and by-laws have been passed at local authority level for special speed limits outside schools but these are not being followed up because there is no money available to put up special speed limit signs. If this pilot scheme was successful, has an analysis of the cost involved been carried out? Has there been consultation with the Department of Finance with regard to making funds available?

Chairman

Could we have a brief response to those questions?

Mr. Liam Hughes

I will first address a point made by the Chairman on urban transport. The scheme is essentially a rural one to provide access for young people who are relatively remote from schools. The fundamental objectives of an urban transport scheme are likely to be non-educational but have more to do with relieving traffic congestion, reducing carbon emissions and so on. Members might wish to note that the Department of Transport is conducting a review of this matter with a view to drawing up a strategic travel and transport action plan. I know the issue of urban transport is being considered in that context.

Mr. Frank Wyse

We are involved ourselves.

Mr. Liam Hughes

We are represented on that group.

Another aspect of an urban scheme would be the probability that one would need to dispense with the distance requirements. If such a scheme were introduced in urban areas, it would almost inevitably lead to a demand for a relaxation of the distance requirements in rural areas. We would need to be aware that a movement in one area is likely to lead to a demand for commensurate movement in another area. At a time of burgeoning costs, we must be aware that this is likely to add to costs.

The outcome of the flashing warning lights pilot scheme in Ennis was that the alertness of other road users in the areas was heightened by the utilisation of the lights. However, it was felt that more study in other areas was required to make a more definitive decision on it. No estimates have yet been carried out on the likely overall cost. I would point out to the Senator that, at present, the pilot is being used only on buses which come equipped with flashing light equipment. Members will understand the logistical challenge ahead if we have to draw up a design of flashing lights for the huge variety of vehicles in the school transport scheme, which range from minibuses to large coaches of several makes and sizes. While there is a considerable challenge, we are aware of it. It will all be part of the final evaluation.

Chairman

I will move to——

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I want an answer to my question as I must leave shortly.

Chairman

With respect, Senator——

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I asked the question ten minutes ago.

Chairman

It has already been indicated by Senator Healy Eames that she wants to make a brief intervention. Senator Keaveney can also have one.

Senator Cecilia Keaveney

I do not want an intervention. I just want the answer to the question I asked ages ago.

Chairman

The Senator can ask that shortly.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am sorry for coming in and out of the meeting but I had a matter to address on the Order of Business. Will the witnesses clarify the point with regard to the urban scheme, as I did not quite understand the response? There is a strong case to be made for school transport in urban settings, given the traffic congestion due to lack of appropriate public transport in, for example, Galway city.

Chairman

Senator Keaveney has unfortunately left the meeting.

Mr. Liam Hughes

It is arguable that there is a need for a number of strategies to address urban congestion. These might include encouraging people to walk and cycle more, although this would have implications for the safety of those activities. I know that walking buses operate in some areas, where two parents, one at the head of the group and one at the rear, accompany a group of children to school. If we are talking about transporting children over very short distances——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am talking about bus transport, perhaps across a bridge, over a distance of approximately two miles in an urban setting where there is massive traffic congestion which is worsened at school opening and closing times and alleviated when the schools are on holidays. Has the Department an initiative in mind for school bus transport for our cities?

Mr. Liam Hughes

As Mr. Wyse said, we do not want to pre-empt what the review might uncover but it is one of the areas we believe would be worthy of consideration.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

So there is an open mind on it.

Mr. Liam Hughes

Absolutely.

Chairman

Senator Keaveney had to leave but I wish to put on record the answer to her question. She asked for the witnesses' views regarding the self-regulation of bus operators and whether they need independent inspection. The Senator obviously feels they do.

Mr. Liam Hughes

Our colleagues in the Department of Transport would not thank us for expressing a view one way or the other on that matter. It is entirely a matter for the Department of Transport.

Mr. Frank Wyse

We are aware of the issue raised by Senator Keaveney. We have raised it with our colleagues in the Department of Transport and will continue to do so. To be clear, the private school operators in the school transport scheme are drawn from a very large pool of operators. While we have improved the safety specifications on school transport, we still draw new buses from that large pool, on which work sometimes must be done. Consequently, it is in our interest to see a general improvement in transport standards.

I wish to ask a question of, or make a request to, members, if that is possible. We are aware the joint committee has received submissions on the catchment boundaries. If it is not improper and if it is acceptable to the Chairman and members, we would like to have sight of some of them to avoid duplication. Effectively, we then could take them into account without being obliged to go back to every individual who made such submissions.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Ulick Burke

In addition to the existing submissions——

Chairman

The previous ones.

Deputy Ulick Burke

—the other submissions are equally important.

Mr. Frank Wyse

That also would be of enormous help to us in our preliminary work.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That would be positive.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank members for so doing and the information will be forwarded. While time is running on, it was important to discuss this issue and I thank Mr. Wyse, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Hogan and Mr. Dalton for their attendance, highly informative presentation and responses to members' questions.

One further item of important business remains outstanding, that is, a presentation by the new chief executive officer of Science Foundation Ireland in respect of its roles and functions. I propose the joint committee go into private session for three minutes to discuss a related matter arising from the presentation on transport boundaries. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.41 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.53 a.m.