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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 28 Feb 2008

Part-Time Fees: Discussion with National Youth Council of Ireland.

I welcome Mr. James Doorley, assistant director, Ms Marie-Claire McAleer, senior research and policy officer and Ms Anna Kavanagh, research and policy officer with the National Youth Council of Ireland. I ask Mr. Doorley to begin with a short presentation on measures to alleviate the cost of part-time fees, as proposed in the programme for Government and Towards 2016. Members may then ask questions.

Before Mr. Doorley begins, I wish to draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in any such way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. James Doorley

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to speak to the committee. My colleague, Ms Marie-Claire McAleer, will make our presentation.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

We are pleased to have the opportunity to speak to the committee on the issue of part-time fees, which has been a key campaign issue for us for a number of years. The NYCI is an umbrella organisation for 54 youth organisations throughout the country. Educational disadvantage and educational policy are key issues for us. We contribute to a number of statutory bodies on equality of access to education, lifelong learning and life-wide education, which we believe are an integral part of a fair, equitable and fully inclusive education system.

As Mr. Doorley said, I am joined by Ms Anna Kavanagh, our research and policy officer. I intend to speak for approximately five to ten minutes on the issue, highlighting a number of key points. We will then be pleased to answer any questions the members may have.

I circulated a paper to members which contains additional information but essentially, the rationale for the abolition of part-time fees is the need to improve, promote and resource a range of education and training opportunities on a lifelong basis. That is an issue which is generally acknowledge to be very important. Fundamentally, investment in lifelong learning is essential in an ever changing economic market, particularly in the context of a developing technological society. In such an environment, employees must upgrade and upskill throughout their working lives. It is also important that the State ensures that employees are given opportunities to improve their skills throughout their life cycle.

I have highlighted a number of benefits to introducing a targeted approach to alleviating part-time fees. There is a myriad of social, economic and personal benefits to be derived from introducing a targeted approach to removing part-time fees. In terms of the benefits to the individual, research confirms that education plays an integral part in positively influencing life chances. The barriers that we know exist for many seeking to access and participate in higher education will be removed by adopting a targeted approach to the abolition of fees. This is particularly true of second-chance learners who left school early without formal qualifications.

Society also benefits in terms of providing access to higher education so that we can shape the social, intellectual, cultural and economic development of the country. Most importantly, it is the key to unlocking the cycle of poverty and breaking the cycle of intergenerational educational disadvantage and enabling adults, as parents, to assist their children in learning and development.

The economic benefits speak for themselves. It is a major selling point for a new, knowledge-based economy which provides a well-developed education and training system and a work force that is adaptable and willing to learn new skills. The provision of free part-time third level education is an essential component in the creation of such a knowledge-based economy, allowing us to compete internationally.

It is important to acknowledge that this issue has been on the agenda for quite some time. Over the last decade, successive Government reports have highlighted part-time fees as a barrier to access and participation in further and higher education, especially among those from lower socio-economic backgrounds. It has been the focus of successive Government reports which have addressed the issue from an equity and access perspective. I have highlighted the reports in the paper I circulated to members and they include the green and white papers on adult education, a number of social partnership agreements, the report of the action group on access to third level, the report of the task force on lifelong learning and so forth. The list is endless.

The report of the task force on lifelong learning examined the issue and analysed the arguments in favour and against the abolition of fees. It concluded that it was critically important to remove the fees barrier which deters a return to learning, if the key objective is to raise the qualifications of the adult population. This is important for improving competitiveness and promoting social cohesion.

It is also important to note that Ireland has a very low rate of participation in non-formal, job-related education and training vis-à-vis the level of educational attainment when compared with other OECD countries. The table at the back of the paper I circulated demonstrates this clearly. Last year the OECD published a report which showed that Ireland’s performance in terms of investment in lifelong learning was below the OECD average and significantly behind our European neighbours. In Ireland only 11% of the work force is engaged in education and training, compared to 39% in Denmark, 27% in the United Kingdom, and 19% in Austria. It is also important to note, in putting that figure into context, that most of those engaged in education and training in Ireland are already qualified and do not represent the unskilled or those without formal qualifications.

Ireland's expenditure on education has decreased from 5% of GDP in 1995 to 4.7% in 2004, which is well below the OECD average of 5.4%. Expenditure per student at third level is also below the OECD average.

It is important to highlight the impact of part-time fees, which make further and higher education unobtainable for many students. The cost of financing a part-time course places a considerable burden on students who already struggle to balance work and family responsibilities and, in some cases, bear the costs of child care. Access to education is expensive and part-time study is often the only viable option for people with family and work responsibilities. If the State is serious about reconciling work and family life, it needs to address the issue of part-time fees.

We were pleased that the negotiations for the current social partnership agreement resulted in a commitment on abolishing part-time fees for students in employment and attending public institutions who never previously pursued third level education. This was a first step in the right direction and went some way towards improving access to higher education and promoting lifelong learning opportunities through targeted measures. We also welcomed the commitment in the current programme for Government on the introduction of a new system of means tested free fees for approved part-time courses and the recognition of the need for incentives for colleges to develop more flexible and diverse course structures to enable people with family and work obligations to avail of third level opportunities. However, no progress has been made on these commitments. The Government needs to honour them by establishing targeted schemes for free fees in approved part-time courses for employees attending public institutions who never previously pursued third level education. The scheme should be in place to benefit students commencing academic courses in September 2008.

The arguments in favour of removing part-time fees on a targeted basis are convincing. If we as a society are committed to providing a fair and equitable education system that embraces the principle of lifelong learning, the removal of part-time fees should begin immediately. Education should be a right for everyone and in accordance with the life cycle model adopted in Towards 2016 it should be accessible to all, irrespective of age. I have highlighted the social, economic and individual benefits of introducing a free part-time fees scheme. We believe it should be introduced on a targeted basis with free fees for approved part-time courses for employees attending public institutions who have never previously pursued third level education. This has been on the agenda for more than ten years but limited progress has been made. I would be happy to respond to any questions which arise from my presentation.

I thank Ms McAleer for her brief but comprehensive presentation.

I welcome the representatives of the National Youth Council of Ireland. Their presentation is timely given that the Student Support Bill 2008 is about to receive a Second Stage reading. Every contribution made on the issue thus far has referred to the need for a part-time fees scheme. If the Minister for Education and Science is willing, she now has the opportunity to address this issue. It is worrying that spending on education has decreased from 5% to 4.7% of GDP given the necessity to reduce the barriers to education.

When Ms McAleer spoke about targeted schemes, does she imply they should be targeted at employers? Has the National Youth Council of Ireland consulted employers in regard to changing their minds? A degree of reluctance exists among them, particularly in the current economic climate, to financially support employees who want to pursue education.

An example of where the Department has failed to take advantage of opportunities is the case of Hibernian, which offers options for people who may have lost out in the past. That school will not be allowed to offer an important third level course.

Equity between part and full-time students is at the heart of this matter. It must be galling for people who make supreme efforts to be denied support. Family members may support them financially or they may be forced to take loans from credit unions because they do not have sufficient credit history to satisfy other lending institutions. I hope the Minister takes the opportunity to address the issue because Members across the House have supported the targeted abolition of part-time fees.

I thank the National Youth Council of Ireland for its presentation. The rationale for abolishing part-time fees is obvious. The Labour Party abolished fees for full-time students and we support the abolition of part-time fees. As one who pursued part-time education while holding down employment, I understand the difficulties students face, including family commitments and personal sacrifices.

I acknowledge the commitments made in the programme for Government but I doubt they will be delivered given that the current Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, and her predecessor, Deputy Noel Dempsey, have indicated their desire to restore fees for full-time third level education. I hope I am wrong.

I welcome members of the National Youth Council of Ireland. I will pick up on the word "equity", which Deputy Burke used. There is an unfortunate inequity in Donegal at the moment as many of our students go to the North. There is inequity as they must pay the fees, whether part-time or full-time, and this should not be. I do not applaud the two major parties in the North which indicated in their manifestos that fees would be eliminated but did not implement the policy when they got into power. That is a story for another day.

I spent a long time in university myself. I am glad in one sense to see the words "targeted scheme" because the permanent student phenomenon could be one issue, although there are not that many permanent students; they form a minority rather than a majority.

The targeted element is the most interesting part of the submission. Like Deputy Burke, I would immediately look at the people already in employment who need to upskilled. To blow my brother's trumpet, he came first in a class doing a part-time master's degree in project management in UL. He put an amount of time into that. There must be a relationship between the employer and their understanding that the better training of employees gives a better-educated workforce with more skills.

Working on the targeted element, the Department of Education and Science has a role to play but there is definitely a role for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and employers themselves. I am glad that came out of the talks, which embraced employers, so this is not being imposed on employers.

Fees are one issue but the student grant is another. I am trying to understand the position taken by the Minister. I assume she is considering how much it will cost to fund, not only in terms of fees but in associated student grants arising from this. I thought about the issue before the witnesses referred to it in their submission.

In Donegal we have, unfortunately, had many job losses. Terms such as FÁS schemes and Youthreach were used but if it is a case that unskilled people or those who have never been in third level education before are being dealt with, I cannot understand that there would be a differentiation between people who are part-time and full-time. The initial idea is to get them into education and this should be a priority within the Department.

I assume that with the targeted scheme, it is difficult to work out who is in charge of a particular aspect of a target. I am sure the problem is the target could become bigger once people realise there are options available to them.

I believe fully in what is being said about a more educated workforce being better. The same applies to a community. There are barriers, of which I know from the experience of the imposition of full-time fees in the North seriously impacting on Donegal students. I fully back what the delegation is trying to achieve.

I join with other colleagues in welcoming the members of the delegation. I am glad they have had the opportunity to speak and we have had the opportunity to listen.

Part-time education for those who are employed and unemployed, and those on the verge of redundancy, is clearly a very important element of the educational process. I come from County Donegal, like my colleague Senator Keaveney, and it has experienced unprecedented job losses in the traditional manufacturing sector. In Ireland, over the past number of years and particularly since 2001 and 2002, there has been a significant shift away from the traditional jobs to more technologically advanced work. As a result, there is a need to move into obtaining educational opportunities to upskill.

I understand that according to the Department, the cost of this measure is approximately €32.9 million per year for what is being sought. If that were limited to students aged 23 and over, it would be reduced to approximately €23 million.

I support this issue as people who are unemployed should be treated on a par with those in full-time education. People who cannot obtain full-time educational opportunities should not be penalised because they take the part-time route. According to the figures, 11% of Ireland's workforce is engaged in education and training, compared to other countries that may have a higher percentage. This statistic is qualified by the fact that many in Ireland are probably availing of education prior to going to work. We have a very skilled and well-trained population in Ireland, which has been acknowledged worldwide. That is due in no small part to the work of the Governments over the last number of years and the determination of Irish people, particularly young people, to go on to third and fourth level education, etc.

I support the work of the delegation. It is the way to proceed. It is in the programme for Government and Towards 2016. The delegation is trying to ensure commitments are met sooner rather than later, something to which we would all aspire.

I commend the National Youth Council of Ireland in the work it is doing to raise young people's issues throughout the country. Everybody welcomes the work it does.

I thank the National Youth Council of Ireland for its presentation. It was stated the Government committed itself to establishing a fund but was a timeframe mentioned?

Mr. James Doorley

Yes.

Was it a vague promise?

Everyone who wanted to ask questions has put them forward and as Chair I have a couple of comments and queries. I presume the youth council would acknowledge the work which has been done in the current programme for Government and Towards 2016, and it is simply a case of getting our skates on because this issue is so important that it cannot wait.

I concur with this view and I expressed disappointment at the time of the budget that the full commitment of €350 million in additional funding for day to day issues was not forthcoming. It is not my place to be bearer of bad news but I would seriously doubt if the scheme could come into place in September 2008, given that the Minister for Education and Science did not get the full funding committed to in the programme for Government. There are clearly reasons the Minister for Finance decided it was better to allocate money elsewhere.

Are there any other statistics? Could the committee be provided with some indication of lost productivity or lost economic opportunity arising from this issue? How many people do not go on to higher education because of the part-time fees issue? Perhaps an economic argument could be made for this very small amount of money required to cover all the existing commitments in the recommendations. It would be great if this could be outlined in stark financial terms here but if not, it could be sent to the committee. That would put an argument to the Minister for Finance that the current stance is, to use the term a "no-brainer", as the investment will reap rewards in a very short period of time.

I concur with other speakers that this issue should be considered as quickly as possible. I invite the delegation to respond to the questions. There is a smaller number of people attending the committee than is normal because a number of spokespersons had to go to the Order of Business in the Dáil and a vote may be expected. As a result, the members of the delegation have more leeway to answer questions and elaborate on their points.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

I will try to answer some of the questions and my colleagues will respond to others.

We are social partners and had contact with employers; there was a lot of support for part-time fees so it was included in the agreement. Part-time fees usually affect people who attend courses after work and our colleagues in the community and voluntary area of social partnership are working on the issue with employers in a social partnership group on lifelong learning. The area is being explored at that level.

Does Ms McAleer not find that many employers show reluctance, either directly or through a representative group, because not all courses take place after work? Workers are willing to attend such courses but have been prevented for economic reasons.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

That may be true in some instances but the real issue is the financial barrier because if it were removed there would be less of a problem. Some employers prevent employees attending courses but others support them in upskilling and gain from having better educated and trained employees in the workforce. We see the main issue as removing the financial barrier in the part-time fees issue but what the Deputy said is true in some instances.

Mr. James Doorley

I thank Deputies and Senators for their comments and support. As Deputy O'Mahony said, we pushed this issue in social partnership discussions because we wanted action as soon as possible. The best we got was a commitment to set up a fund and there is no timeframe for this. We believe that what is in the programme for Government, which is, essentially, a commitment to abolish fees, represents a progression and is better than what we got. A fund was included in Towards 2016 but not everyone would have qualified for support from it. The inclusion in the programme for Government is superior because it identifies categories of people who, on meeting certain criteria, need not pay part-time fees.

Our objective is to get action as soon as possible. Deputy Gogarty said this will not happen by September 2008, and we acknowledge this, but if action does not come soon change may not occur by September 2009. We met representatives of the Department of Education and Science last October and there did not appear to be any sense of urgency pertaining to this issue. We welcome the support of this committee, which consists of Deputies and Senators from various parties. Whatever pressure can be applied to move the issue forward is welcome.

Regarding the targeted approach, Deputy Burke's comment on employers is probably correct. Some employers are very supportive of employees gaining qualifications but OECD figures show that relatively well-qualified employees, such as those with primary degrees, are the ones who get most support for further education in masters degrees, PhDs and so on.

Senators Ó Domhnaill and Keaveney said that unskilled workers and those who would be vulnerable were they to lose their jobs in the morning are less likely to get support for further education from employers and the figures bear this out. Such employees may not hold leaving certificates or other qualifications, though they may have many life skills and other relevant attributes; they do not have the documentation that would help them get other jobs quickly. Some employers are reluctant to provide support for training and education for cost reasons. Another reason is that an employee who gains further qualifications may be more likely to leave his or her job in search of another.

The Irish Business and Employers Confederation and other employers organisations were very supportive of movement on the issue of part-time fees but the Department of Education and Science had a valid point on what it would call dead weight, a notion that would see the Department paying, for example, PhDs for people who are already well qualified. The big multinationals want their employees to be well qualified and they agree with the targeted approach, which focuses on those who never had an opportunity to get qualifications on leaving secondary school. This is the approach that we advocate.

The costings we have came from the task force on life long learning and are a number of years old. We tried to get more information on the cost to the economy and society of a lack of support. Compared with other European countries, Ireland has a low level of participation in part-time education and training and we see cost as the major barrier. We are seeking more information in this regard and are willing to get back to the committee. Only one in 20 people who do not have a third level qualification are involved in part-time education and this compares badly with the rest of Europe. It is true that we have a highly skilled and motivated workforce but the people most in need of support are the ones who are not receiving training and education. We believe the Government and Department of Education and Science have roles to play but employers should also contribute because they benefit from the education of their employees.

The programme for Government made a commitment to abolish fees and now a great deal of work is necessary. We are willing to engage with the Department and others on making this work in practice because we do not want a scheme that is bureaucratic and makes it difficult for people to apply. The approach should be targeted, rather than meeting the needs of permanent students who do endless degrees, as Senator Keaveney mentioned.

We welcome the support of the committee and feel its members are in a better position than us to put pressure on the Department to move this issue forward and, hopefully, put something in place by September 2009.

The lack of supplementary questions from members shows how comprehensive the presentation was. I would welcome any additional information that can be supplied, even in terms of quantifying the number of people in part-time education compared to the EU median and our immediate neighbours. I presume it would take simple mathematics to work out the cost of education versus the employment benefit but nobody has yet done this. This type of simple information could be passed on to the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister for Finance by this committee in the hope of a positive outcome.

I thank the representatives of the National Youth Council of Ireland for attending this meeting and for their comprehensive presentation. I ask that they continue to liaise with the committee and I am sure they will come before us again.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.40 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 March 2008.
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