JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 13 Mar 2008

Interculturalism in Schools: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Derek Lowry, principal, and Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin, teacher at Newpark comprehensive school. I also welcome Mr. Philip Watt, director, and Ms Kate Morris, information and education officer from the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, NCCRI. I ask Ms Ní Fhaoláin to begin with a short presentation, followed by Mr. Watt, dealing with interculturalism in schools. Members may then ask questions.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not extend to witnesses coming before the committee. Members are reminded of the practice that we should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I thank the witnesses for attending.

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin

Go mbeannaigh Dia dhíbh ar maidin. I am a subject teacher in Newpark comprehensive school. Over the past ten years there have been major changes in education and this has created new and urgent needs in our schools. Our aim in Newpark is to develop the whole person and not just academic, intellectual or creative abilities. We look to develop self-esteem and self-confidence. Once a person feels he or she is heard and is included, everything else will fit into place.

The strength of any community can be seen in how we care for and support each other. We are all different but equal and connected. What affects one affects all of us. With this in mind, I will speak about interculturalism in Newpark. We have worked hard at this and with all our best efforts and good intentions, we are struggling, which is the reason I am here. There are two main issues as I see them, whole-school training in interculturalism and racism awareness and the need for the role of a liaison person in every school in Ireland.

The most obvious issue but by no means the most critical is language support for students. A language support teacher requires comprehensive language training, as well as training in racism awareness and interculturalism if they are to do their job properly. We have had training from the Department of Education and Science by means of a few days of in-service but that is not enough either for now or what lies ahead.

Five years ago in Newpark, while doing work with some students, particularly refugees and asylum seekers, we began to realise how little we knew. The more we listened to our students, the more at ease they became. We decided we needed help and training, so in desperation I rang the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, who got me in contact with the NCCRI. For the first time we had a group of professional people who knew where we were coming from and could support and guide us. They provided training for 40 teachers at that time for free because we had no money outside school time, as there is no time allocation for that. That was a big turning point.

We knew then for sure that the only way to go was with training. We continued and two teachers completed training for trainers, and my principal and vice principal are set to do training appropriate to themselves. We fully realise that intercultural policy is very important and we should have intercultural events in school. Without awareness, it is like putting the cart before the horse. Until we have such training we will be going around in circles.

We have a responsibility and every student has a right to equal access in education. This is a humanitarian and social development issue. We thank the NCCRI for all its support.

The second issue involves the role of an intercultural person in schools. In Newpark, I was the language support teacher and pastoral care person at the beginning, although we later realised this was a job for two people. We appointed a new person as a language support teacher and I took on the role of the intercultural liaison person. We soon realised that in our schools, parents were reluctant to come into the school for various reasons. They may not have known enough of the language or they were afraid, perhaps feeling they did not understand the system. It is important parents feel welcome and that somebody will be there to talk and listen to them.

We also realised that when parents came in, sometimes they would be very stressed or overwhelmed, often breaking down because of their position. Perhaps they have no support in the community or they may be working 24 hours a day, seven days a week, trying to make ends meet. Often these parents have the child translate for them and we often have a translator come in to help them. Ultimately, we must really reach out to these people and ensure we facilitate communication and participation so these parents can access the school system.

I work in collaboration with colleagues at my school. A focus group of four teachers works with me and I discuss everything with them because one needs that support with such a new issue. I also have the backing of the management team, with which I have many meetings to discuss and reflect upon matters. I would not have the courage and confidence to persist without support and encouragement. We advocate the need for a national strategy and the two issues I raised would be part of such an approach.

Mr. Philip Watt

I am delighted to be part of this presentation and to build on the points made by Ms Ní Fhaoláin and Newpark comprehensive school.

It is self-evident that our schools are becoming more diverse and this should be welcomed, although it brings additional challenges for all schools at primary and secondary levels. Recent events in Balbriggan and Blanchardstown have evidenced the level of school places available. Equality of access is a key issue in schools admission policies and support for children who do not have English or Irish as a first language is important. Ms Ní Fhaoláin raised the matter of support for teachers, in terms of resources and training, on the challenges that face them in the classroom.

It is important to acknowledge the work done and initiatives developed by the Department of Education and Science in this context, such as the publication of intercultural education guidelines and resources and supports for English language teachers. We should acknowledge the welcome statements made by the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, on admissions policies. We should also welcome the recent announcement by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, that three primary schools will be developed under the vocational education committee administration system. However, these initiatives, while welcome, must be brought together in an integrated intercultural strategy because at the moment, policy in this respect is piecemeal in character rather than holistic and comprehensive.

The most important point we wish to communicate today is the need for a national intercultural education strategy. Deputy Ruairí Quinn is present and we should acknowledge the work of non-governmental organisations, NGOs, such as the Holocaust Educational Trust, that have raised these issues in classrooms. A national intercultural education strategy is important to help avoid the dangers of de facto segregation along the lines of faith or ethnic origins.

It is interesting that representatives of the Muslim school in Clonskeagh told us they were not sure whether there should be such a school and that it exists because some other schools do not respond to the needs of Muslims. They felt that the best way forward is to integrate Muslim children into other schools and we concur with that approach. At the moment some schools with a Catholic or Protestant ethos put Muslim children at the back of the class during religious education because they do not have the resources to mind the children. This is completely inappropriate and must be dealt with urgently.

The appointment of intercultural liaison officers is a very important part of the national intercultural strategy. There are language teachers and home-school liaison teachers but there is a need for a specific role to be assigned to one or more teachers in the area of interculturalism. This matter does not relate solely to language but encompasses parents who may not speak English and people who are not used to our culture and education system. This is all an important part of the integration process.

We welcome this opportunity to raise these issues and hope the committee will help support a national intercultural education strategy because it is a necessity.

Chairman

Members may now make comments and ask questions but we will limit contributions to two and a half minutes, as agreed, because another group is to attend this meeting. It is to be hoped that when the other group from St. Nicholas's national school, Claddagh, comes in, there will be more questions because there are common issues relating to both groups of witnesses. If members have follow-up questions they may keep them for the next group to save time and ensure there is no duplication.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the delegation. Regarding in-service training and reaching out, what role does the Department play? It has been said that in-service training is a short-term response that only addresses specific matters and that there should be an overall departmental response to teacher training for this issue. Have there been signs that such an extensive response is likely or is the approach at the moment only addressing the needs of individual schools?

Parents play an important role in the education of their children and schools with intercultural classes, that is, almost every school, must face a huge task. How can parents' needs be met in the school context? Is there an after-hours approach to them?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I join my colleague in welcoming the delegation. In the interest of brevity my questions will be direct and terse. What is the scale of this problem? We are talking about the post-primary school sector that consists of 800 schools. What percentage of the total student population can be categorised as either newcomers, to use that phrase, or people from other countries? The witnesses are competing for scarce resources from a Government that cannot even fund its primary school system so they should not hold their breath.

My views on interculturalism have changed in the light of experiences in Britain, Denmark and the Netherlands. Perhaps modern technology and 24-hour communications allow people to be in Britain but, in every other sense of the word, live in Pakistan. Modern communications mean that migration is now a constant, two-way process, rather than something that might entail the so-called American wake, which used to happen in Ireland when a person emigrated to the United States, never to return.

What has been the experience of other European countries in integrating people into European culture and its value system? I say this thinking of religious fundamentalists who regard how they treat women and people of a different sexual orientation as part of their culture and, therefore, not subject to declarations of human rights or civic legislation in the country in which they have chosen to live. I could expand on this but, in the interest of brevity, this is my question.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome the delegation and thank its members for the presentation. I compliment the witnesses on the courage they have shown in talking about the challenges in this area. My most recent experience in this area relates to the supervision of teaching practice in mainstream classes with children of many different nationalities. I also have seen children in language support classes. I notice that the children of various cultures are generally silent. They are enrolled in our schools and present in the classrooms but one wonders about the quality of the education such children will receive and the outcomes that will ensue. I compliment them on their resilience and have noticed that eastern Europeans especially are making great strides in learning.

The witnesses have nine years' experience. What have they found that works well with regard to this issue? They have spoken of the need for adequate teacher training. The representatives from St. Nicholas's national school are up next and I want to ask them the same question. What is the best language support model, when should it be done, and how?

Deputy Burke also referred to this but based on experience, what is the best way to handle parents, to help them feel welcome and let them be the first educators of their children in line with our Constitution? Are we keeping them in the dark as well? I thank the representatives for their time.

Chairman

Are there any other contributors at this stage? I will add some comments and questions of my own. A number of years ago I visited New South Wales, Australia, as part of a delegation from this committee. One of the interesting things we learned there about multiculturalism was that the teaching of home languages to children is funded. For example, if a child's family comes from Pakistan, the child can be taught Urdu on Saturday mornings. The reasoning behind this is that if a child can communicate with his or her parents who might not speak English, it facilitates better integration and communication with the school.

What are the views of the representatives on applying this in Ireland? We acknowledge that much of the funding for adult English lessons comes out of the literacy fund and the money going towards this is woefully inadequate, as I have said before. There is cross-party agreement that funding and resources are not sufficient and are not being put in quickly enough. Even in the current context, would it be possible to conduct this on a voluntary basis? Would Newpark comprehensive school, for example, welcome such a project or facilitate the teaching of home languages to children on a Saturday morning as their parents are being taught English?

With regard to the teaching of religion, obviously we do not want children from minority religions sitting down the back while the majority religion is being taught. Should religion be kept entirely out of schools? Alternatively, should it be taught during a set time after normal school hours or, for example, after PE, so that the children are not visibly being segregated? What would be the best time to teach religion within the school context? Again, we will have communications from representatives of the various faiths in due course. I ask the representatives to take their time and respond.

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin

Senator Healy Eames asked what worked well for us. I will speak from experience. Two specific things stand out in my mind. We provided a support group for ethnic minority students about five years ago and we found out, very simply, that the more we listened, the more we learned and the more at ease the students became. While that seems very simple, sometimes people forget to do these simple things.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

What language was being used?

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin

We were communicating in English. The students had various degrees of English, but it is not necessarily language that is the barrier. It is really about listening effectively to people and giving them the space to talk. The more we listened, the more they told us, and that inspired me to keep at this and to keep reaching out to help. That was one thing that worked.

The most effective thing was the training we had. It was the first time we had a chance to talk about issues such as racism and explore our own prejudices in a safe place. That was another turning point for us. It gave us the courage to keep going. Lack of awareness leads to bad decision making which affects people's lives in a negative way. We need the training first.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Just to clarify, how many children and nationalities is Ms Ní Fhaoláin dealing with in Newpark comprehensive school?

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin

We have about 800 students in Newpark, of about 45 different ethnicities. People are always asking how many different nationalities we have, but it is a whole-school issue. It is not just about ethnic minority students. It is about all of us. It affects all of us and we all have a responsibility, particularly the majority, because we are the people who can make the changes.

Another thing we did was a social evening for ethnic minority parents. It is a simple idea. They can come to the school and meet each other, exchange phone numbers and give support to each other. They meet perhaps five people from the school community so that the next time they come to the school they feel they know this person or that person. That was very enjoyable and worked well, and we do it every year.

We also do things in class. We have availed of all the training, in-service and otherwise, from the Department of Education and Science and we welcome this and the intercultural guidelines. However, a few days of in-service training here and there will not really work. We need the whole package. The intercultural guidelines, while they are very good, remind me of giving somebody guidelines on driving a car but not actually showing him or her how to drive it.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is a question of practical steps.

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin

Practical work locally is needed. I do not know whether I have left anything out.

Mr. Derek Lowry

I will make a few points with regard to the questions that have come up. Historically, language support was the first thing the Department addressed when students began to come in. In Newpark we have always had a number of ethnic minority students as we have had embassy students in the past. Many of these came with quite a good standard of English. One of the things that can get lost is that if the student has a good command of English, there is an attitude that he or she will be okay. We need to take into account that even though they may have a good standard of English, we must be aware of how well they comprehend and are able to use the language and how well they can write. To be fair to the Department, it has begun to work on this.

We had a rule in secondary schools, which may be the same in primary schools, whereby language support is stopped after two years. That was seen as enough. Now we have measures so that language support can be continued if a student has not reached a certain level. This is a positive development. If a student comes in second or third year and we want him or her to do the leaving certificate at a good level, it may be that while he or she comes across very well, he or she may need a lot of support in terms of comprehension and answering to the best of his or her ability.

With regard to the difficulties of dealing with and integrating parents, on a practical level, as Ms Ní Fhaoláin said, we can try to reach out to them and bring them into the school. We have evenings during which they can get to know other families who have come to the country and become comfortable in the school environment. It is often difficult to get them to the school in the first place.

The second problem that arises regarding parents is that very often the child has better English. When there is a meeting with the parents we would always move away from the idea of getting the child to translate because that is not fair on the child. We would try, if at all possible, to bring in somebody to help with the translation but that can be extremely difficult so communication with parents is an ongoing difficulty. In fairness, it is always going to be that way. There is no instant or easy solution.

We are quite fortunate in the sense that we have a very broad range of different students coming to the school in terms of social class and academic ability, and we have a large number of special needs assistants. A number of those special needs assistants are quite well qualified immigrants who have come to Ireland, especially from Poland. The Chairman mentioned the idea of Saturday morning tuition. We have rented the school to the Polish embassy with which we have a link because children of embassy staff attend the school. We started this programme about three years ago, with three classrooms and approximately 30 students. There are now 320 Polish students attending Newpark on Saturdays and Sundays. They start at 8 a.m. and go on until 3 p.m. on Saturday and until 4 p.m. on Sunday. Those parents come from all parts of the country and their aim is to keep a link with home. The pupils do classes in Polish but they also do many different activities so it is not simply a language issue but a way of bringing them back in touch with their own country. They use one of our two buildings and they reckon that next year they could have up to 600 students. The children are aged from four to 18, primary and secondary. The amount of activity in Newpark on a Saturday and Sunday is equal to that during the week.

One of the ways in which Newpark differs from many other schools is that we do not have a catchment area as such. We cater first for Church of Ireland and Protestant children on the south side of Dublin. After that there is an open admission policy for anyone else who applies, in keeping with the relevant dates. We have that mixture.

In terms of numbers probably 8% to 10% of the student population would be from ethnic minorities. I know that in many other schools those numbers are far higher and I believe that we must maintain a balance in our schools. If that balance is not there there will be a tendency for parents of "Irish" students to move them out, if they believe that a school has a 70% or 80% ethnic minority enrolment.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

As in some primary schools.

Mr. Derek Lowry

It is difficult but the issue must be addressed.

From a principal's perspective, in-service training is a nightmare. It is a constant difficulty in terms of teachers being out of school, even though it is always for legitimate reasons. Continuous professional development is something that we would encourage but the model we have, which has been discussed for a long time, remains the same, whereby teachers attend during term time.

Regarding the intercultural aspect of this, the training that the Department has offered has been very much around language support. All teachers need to be aware of the need to be able to differentiate the students in front of them, and to be more aware of race issues regarding their own teaching. Staff days or half days would deal with that sort of issue. Within school development planning there is an option whereby schools would be able to take a day and focus on a planning issue. As members can imagine, schools are faced with many different issues. This is one that we would see for the future as addressing the whole staff rather than simply offering language support. Language support is very important but it is only one aspect of an overall policy on cultural diversity.

Mr. Philip Watt

The key issue that has been raised concerns issues around segregation. Our committee is concerned that there is potential, as Mr. Lowry has said, that once a certain tipping point is reached, Irish people start to withdraw their children from a particular school. Without being alarmist, I believe that is a very real issue. It is often for positive reasons.

I think schools like Newpark have a name for being positive and inclusive and therefore people who are no longer living in the area continue to send their children to the school because it has that reputation. Most schools are inclusive and are striving to include new communities. The main offenders who are not doing so, are the ones that are more exclusive on other grounds as well. Those that are exclusive on socio-economic grounds, those schools that do not take many students with disabilities, are the same ones that exclude people from new communities. That was borne out very strongly in Balbriggan recently.

A final point relates to the issue of heritage language, as it is called in the United States, where there is continued provision of some education in the indigenous language, whether it is Polish or whatever. We feel very strongly that the Department of Education and Science should support that approach on a Saturday morning or one afternoon a week. It is increasingly the case that some young children can no longer communicate with their grandparents living in Poland because they have learned and are speaking English all the time. In addition, schools of education show that the teaching of two languages increases educational ability and the ability to learn other languages so it is important as an educational tool as well. We would like to see some Irish students learning Polish. That would be welcome.

Chairman

Does the education officer have anything to add?

Ms Kate Morris

I refer to some of the other questions asked. Research is being done by the ESRI and the inspectorate which will be published later in the year and will also form an element of a seminar that the NCCRI will host on 15 September. I hope that we can bring in elements of best practice at international level and also at European level, of which there seems to be a deficit. We might not necessarily need to re-invent the wheel but we can learn from research. If the Government invests in research at a European level, we can develop and implement it at local level in Ireland.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I am interested in the reference to 45 different ethnicities. The delegates spoke of comprehension difficulties. It is mind-boggling that pupils who arrive two to three years before their leaving certificate sit the exam. It is wonderful but at the same time I wonder if they are sitting it at their optimum level considering the inadequate supports in the system.

What percentage of students from the school go on to third level and will the delegation provide some of the current outcomes? I am trying to establish a baseline of the current position and to figure out, from listening to what is said, what is needed to make improvements.

Chairman

Does the delegation see the post of intercultural liaison officer as similar to other posts in a second level school whereby a teacher is given a top-up to his or her salary along with special training, or is it a totally different job?

Mr. Derek Lowry

Approximately 75% or 80% of the students would go on to institutes of technology, university and post leaving certificate courses, so the vast majority of students go on to some sort of third level education. That includes the majority of our ethnic minority students. However, one of the things which has changed, and much of the time it relates to the background of the student, is the lower academic level of some of the immigrant children. These issues are only now arising for immigrant students in terms of learning support and special needs. It is difficult for us to access help for those students because we try to differentiate between language problems and psychological problems. We then need to access NEPS but it is a difficulty getting the proper psychological report on those students. We have in the recent past--

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is an issue facing all students in Ireland.

Mr. Derek Lowry

Yes.

Chairman

That is not for today's debate.

Mr. Derek Lowry

On the question of the post of intercultural liaison officer, the answer is "Yes". It is possible to provide for that within the schedule of posts by a staff decision in consultation with the board of management. The problem is that prior to this issue coming up, there were already many posts required. The number of posts does not change but the needs change and something must be dropped, which is already happening. This is a difficulty we come across in the special needs area too where there are new needs for schools but they must be addressed within a post structure that has not adapted to those changes. It is possible to have two new posts for intercultural issues and special needs, but it must be within the current post structure, which is very difficult. Something else has to be dropped to enable this take place, as there is the same number of posts to meet those needs.

Ms Fiona Ní Fhaolain

On the question about how students with a language deficit are succeeding, there is one problem. If a student comes in with 0% to 20% level of English that student needs more help than others because he or she is at a loss, carrying a big bag of books that he or she cannot understand. Such students are in classes where they understand 1% of what is happening. That has a significant effect on self-esteem and confidence and such students may end up isolated. It has a serious knock-on effect. I feel for those kids and it breaks my heart to see this happening.

More time should be allocated to students with a low level of English. As Mr. Lowry said, the link between interculturalism and special needs must be examined. We cannot wait six months for the assessment of a student in another language. That is six months of a person's life which is a long time for a 12 year old. The allocation for the liaison role should be separate from the current system, which is already jammed.

Chairman

I note that members have received a copy of a fuller presentation from both delegations. The quotations from ethnic minority groups are worth noting. I hope this report will be put on the web as well. I thank the delegations for appearing before the committee, the discussion has been instructive.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Could the committee get details of the conference on 15 September?

Mr. Philip Watt

We will organise that.

Chairman

I am sure the Department of Education and Science will note what has been said and it will hopefully act on this issue. The delegation is welcome to stay for the next presentation.

I invite Mr. Brendan Forde, principal, and Ms Annie Asgard, English language support teacher and intercultural education officer at St. Nicholas's national school, Claddagh, County Galway, to make a presentation. It is helpful to get a perspective from the primary sector as well as second level. I am sure there will be some recurring themes. I ask the delegation, if possible, where there has already been an answer on a general issue to avoid referring to it but to try to keep to the primary sector. There will be time for follow-up responses. I invite Mr. Forde to begin his presentation.

Mr. Brendan Forde

A Chathaoirligh is mór an onóir dúinn í bheith anseo inniu. I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee which was extended to us on the occasion that Senator Fidelma Healy Eames and Deputy John O'Mahony visited the school on a fact-finding mission.

I have been the school principal for the past 32 years. I am joined by Ms Annie Asgard, an English language support teacher with responsibility for the development of intercultural education as well as the integration of children from other countries, or "newcomers", as they are commonly called. I do not agree with the use of the term "newcomers". It does not confer much dignity and for how long is one a newcomer? It is sufficient to use the term "children from other countries".

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We should certainly not use the term "non-nationals".

Mr. Brendan Forde

No, "children from other countries".

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We finally got rid of the phrase "non-Catholics", only for it to be replaced with the term "non-nationals".

Mr. Brendan Forde

I am pleased to discuss issues on the provision of special needs and take questions afterwards, particularly on the autism spectrum. During a visit to the school, Senator Healy Eames and Deputy John O'Mahony were so impressed with our idea for a family school that they invited us before the committee. We ran a very successful "international day" in February. It is timely that we should bring forward the family school model. I was not aware that such a model existed in Australia when I began to examine these issues. Then I was fortunate enough to have Ms Asgard join our staff. She comes from Iran and has experienced many intercultural situations in the Far East and America.

Our school is co-educational with 338 pupils, including 27 special-needs children. Additionally there are three special classes for children with autism. We have successfully included special-needs children since 1982, long before the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004 was envisaged. Nine hearing-impaired children attended the school and were included in mainstream classes. They also attended a special unit set up to meet their needs.

The Claddagh national school has a long history of integration and our track record has been well recognised by the Department of Education and Science. We have also received favourable mention in a book published by Mr. Jim Connolly entitled I am a Human. This book has been added to all school libraries in Northern Ireland by the Northern Ireland education Department.

We are a DEIS Band 1 school, which address the needs of disadvantaged children and their families. We also participate in the school completion programme. There are 40 nationalities represented in our school community. The local centre for asylum seekers is adjacent to the school and we are the first port of call for new arrivals. We liaise with the centre through our home-school liaison facility. This year a number of new children from other cultures have presented to us with special needs. The linguistic and, sometimes, cultural barriers are difficult to negotiate, as in some cultures autism is perceived as some type of spiritual malignancy.

Parents have resisted attempts to have their children assessed. There is a child in second class who is on the autistic spectrum, but his parents staunchly refuse to sign the declaration to have him assessed by the NEPS psychologist. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the special educational needs organiser should be made aware that there are such barriers. It is important that they lower the bar for the provision of special needs assistance in these particular cases. Translators and interpreters with a specific understanding of special needs, language and cultural differences are also required. The effect of having children who are not having their needs met in a mainstream class cannot be overstated, because of the distress and anxiety they cause to other children.

The main problems that beset our five English language support teachers are integration and the prevention of ghettoisation. Ghettoisation is a serious issue and needs to be addressed by planning and planners in cities and towns. In one area in Galway almost all of the inhabitants are from Africa. I have nothing against Africans or any race. I find it wrong that planning is not geared towards spreading out the people and the prevention of ghettoes and segregation. I was a student in London in the 1960s and observed what happened there in terms of ghettoisation in areas like Brixton and Tulsehill. There was nothing short of revolution. We should not follow or ape the interventions put in place by Great Britain or any other country. We are an educated race and know what to do. We should do it, beginning with primary schools.

Somebody suggested a post of responsibility in this regard. I was fortunate that a post arose in our school and Ms Asgard was appointed to it. She has worked closely with me since on developing a family school model which we are proud to introduce to the committee. I invite her to present our model to members.

Ms Annie Asgard

Thank you. I was fortunate to join the Claddagh national school last year when Mr. Forde offered me a position. I was trained in the United States, but was born in Iran. Like many of our school's children, I did not speak English when I started primary school as I was an immigrant to the United States. Farsi is my first language and my second language is English. I have taught all over the world in international schools where integration is the only option. I bring a unique angle to the issue being, probably, the only ethnic minority primary teacher in Ireland. I am interested in the issue of diversity in the teaching profession also.

Committee members have been provided with a copy of my presentation. Deputy Gogarty mentioned the family school model in Australia and I would like to discuss that model. I intend to work through the presentation I provided. Mr. Forde came to me with the idea of a family model and we worked on it together. I will try and give a brief rundown without going into too much detail.

Our method is not really about teaching English, it is far more than that. If these children are to be citizens and residents, levels other than linguistic access need to be addressed, but this is not happening. We are falling between two stools. The Department of Education and Science says this issue does not fit into any of its boxes and the Minister with responsibility for integration says it has nothing to do with him per se. We started looking for funding last year and are still struggling in that regard. We are constantly trying to make appointments to meet people who can help get the project going.

Our programme, as can be seen from the cover, aims to empower families, develop communities and promote integration. That is what we are about, not about teaching participants Polish or their native language. I will give an idea of how we work. On a Saturday, children and their families arrive at the school. One of the main barriers to adults learning English and integrating is that they do not have access to child care and cannot go to English language lessons in the evenings. The entire family arrives at school on Saturdays, preschool children, school age children both primary and secondary, and adults and carers, who are often aunts, uncles, grannies, etc.

The preschool children attend a deep immersion English Montessori group on site. There they get access to English before they begin school. As multilingual specialists, we tell parents to speak their native language to their child. We want to encourage that. However, this means that when they arrive at junior infants, they have no English. Their parents should not teach them English if they are not native speakers, they should teach them their own language. The preschool children are involved in that class in the morning and stay there with the qualified Montessori teachers.

The school-age children attend two separate modules. One module is on literacy and numeracy in their native language, starting from where they are and continuing. In my case, I am fully fluent in Farsi, but I cannot even read or write my name in it. This is a severe deficit. As members can imagine, we cannot plan for these children or for whether they go back to Croatia or elsewhere for university or stay here. We must offer them a window of opportunity, particularly before the age of ten when children can develop multilingualism. It is a waste to lose that facility if they have it and not to provide the opportunity to develop it.

The second part of the programme is an ITCHH curriculum designed by ourselves which teaches Irish traditions, culture, heritage and history. On a basic level, particularly for primary school children, we are talking about not knowing what the GAA is or a hurley, or anything about sports, music and culture, which is how they integrate with friends. This is a significant issue. We generally assume a lot about what children know and what they can do, but these children do not know and cannot do these things. Often they do not play in the yard with Irish children because they do not know the latest band, know the terminology or understand the slang. We bring in outside specialists as well as our own qualified teachers to work on this ITCHH curriculum.

While that is happening with primary and secondary students, parents and carers also attend two modules. Their first module is English language support, working from their current situation with as much meaningful input as possible. It is not enough to just help them fill out job applications. If they are to live and stay here, they need to learn English. We find, particularly with EU citizens, because they do not come through the immigration system and are not asylum seekers or refugees, that they often are not provided with any English lessons. Lessons are very expensive on the open market.

The second model for adults is also an ITCHH model. Their model is modified to include things like banking in Ireland and voting rights and responsibilities. As members know, it has been suggested that non-Irish people may be able to vote in a general election. These people have little understanding about the Irish political system and these are the things citizens should know.

During the teaching of the ITCHH curriculum, specialists will help to facilitate an understanding of Irish culture in order to promote integration. Currently, we have 35 families on the waiting list for the programme. They are anxiously awaiting a position and constantly ring and ask whether the programme will be funded. There is a financial contribution required from the participating families for the running of the school. Families who do not have the funds are allowed to contribute by doing some work for us or some kind of arrangement is made for them.

This describes our programme in a nutshell. The documentation provided goes into far more detail, but I will not bore members with it. We find ours is the appropriate model. In the long term, integration will not come just from offering language support, which is what is being offered generally. The intercultural education guidelines offered by both the NCCA and the INTO are excellent, but what happens is that people like myself and Mr. Forde go to meetings on the guidelines although we already have the knowledge. Intercultural education needs to be a pre-service issue and should be mandatory. It cannot be optional. I recently held a series of talks in our school and in the Galway Education Centre on intercultural education. I do that in the evening on a relatively voluntary basis. It does not really meet the needs of teachers.

Chairman

No doubt members will have many questions. I would like to mention the book, I am Human. I ask Ms Asgard to send us the PowerPoint presentation in electronic format and we will try to put it on the web. Committee debates are on the web and the report should appear there also. The same applies to representatives from Newpark comprehensive school. If they have any material they feel would be beneficial to the Department, members and the general public, they could e-mail it to the clerk to the committee.

I note that Deputy O'Mahony and Senator Healy Eames visited St. Nicholas's national school and that is why the witnesses are here. Given that the Senator has already contributed I ask Deputy O'Mahony to start as the lead questioner from Fine Gael.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank Ms Asgard and Mr. Forde for their presentation. They gave us a great sense of what the school is like. Senator Healy Eames and I had that extra privilege of seeing it in action and seeing the maximisation of resources, the happiness and great sense of teamwork in the school. On the day we visited they were preparing for the school's international day. Seeing the great sense of purpose in the school almost made me regret that I had left the teaching profession.

Representatives from Newpark comprehensive school had a similar story - I have not had the opportunity to visit that school yet. All schools deserve whatever support they can get for whatever programmes they have. Mr. Forde mentioned the sense of ghettoisation, etc. Both he and Ms Asgard praised the support they have got from the Department of Education and Science when they sought it. However, rather than schools needing to go looking for this support should the Department provide a comprehensive policy? Because the people in St. Nicholas's and Newpark schools are doing their job of integration so well, there is a danger they might be flooded by children from other countries. There should be a more widespread approach by the Department rather than requiring schools to go out in search of it.

Chairman

We will take questions from other members before Mr. Forde answers. I am sure other members wish to speak, including, no doubt, Senator Healy Eames, who visited the school. As per protocol, I first call Deputy Quinn.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The witnesses are very welcome and have made a fascinating presentation. I know there is much more involved than they could articulate. I am familiar with the sorts of problems they mentioned. A school in my constituency had an international food day - I am sure St. Nicholas's national school has done the same - in which everybody was invited and their families were asked to prepare their national foods. The school produced a recipe book, which was sold to raise funds.

Many of the issues they mentioned seem to have a much stronger economic dimension than there would be a consciousness about. Of all Departments, the Department of Education and Science is one of the deepest silos of buried expertise and knowledge. I do not believe there are any windows in the Department: they so not see anything else bar the education system. Regarding economic resources the witnesses mentioned, having a Croatian with fluent English and an MBA working for IDA Ireland or the first person who will be the Polish executive of AIB when the Polish subsidiary of AIB becomes the biggest profit centre for the bank in approximately ten years' time is the kind of horizon we are looking at. It seems that the witnesses should be making their presentation to IDA Ireland, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

If bright intelligent people like that cannot survive in the educational system legitimately as our Italian friends have demonstrated with great aplomb in the United States they can turn to crime with even greater ability and cause economic havoc and not only the €100,000 per year to keep them in jail if they are caught. How do we get joined-up thinking? We will not get it from the Department of Education and Science: it is a basket case when it comes to these things. We need to broaden the debate and engage other people also. That is not a slur on the Department of Education and Science. It is just the way it has developed over the years. There is very little cross-fertilisation among the personnel in that Department in contrast with other Departments.

Chairman

Regarding protocol, I take on board what was said. Given the nature of this debate and that it is relevant to other Departments, those Departments should be provided with copies of today's debate as they might learn something. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I thank Mr. Forde and Ms Asgard. I was fascinated by their presentation and while I have seen it in action, it is nice to hear the words they have put on it today. Both presentations have indicated that this is much more than language support and more than education. If we are to truly integrate all our new people from different countries into Ireland it is about culture and real integration. On that basis I strongly support what Deputy Quinn said about the need for an interdepartmental approach to include the Departments of Health and Children, Education and Science, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and Enterprise, Trade and Employment as well as the integration section. It is about integrating them into Irish life and the education system is one prong of that life. This family school model would appear to be the best model presented to me in the Irish context. We need to explore that further. The representatives of Newpark comprehensive school were also getting at it, but did not call it a family model. That is the only difference.

How does St. Nicholas's national school fund it? Who are the teachers and facilitators at the weekends? Mr. Forde mentioned the real dangers of segregation and ghettoisation. Part V of the Planning and Development Act sets out requirements for social and affordable housing. Do the witnesses believe it is working in Galway? I live in Galway and see what they are saying. We have large areas like Doughiska, containing entirely multi-ethnic communities. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments as they come from the west side of the city in the Claddagh area.

The ITCHH curriculum, as the witnesses call it, incorporating Irish traditions, culture heritage and history, is really about integrating our new people. It would be worth knowing more about this. The witnesses should seek a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, on the matter. This must also grow in our education system.

Mr. Brendan Forde

We hoped to get a meeting today, but it did not materialise.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

She is never here.

Chairman

The Chair of the committee would forward information to the Minister. The Minister does appear before the committee for questioning. She can never be questioned directly by a group appearing before the committee but she can be questioned by the committee and we look forward to that.

Mr. Brendan Forde

It would be our wish to present it to her.

Chairman

We will ensure the Minister gets a copy of the PowerPoint presentation.

Ms Annie Asgard

She got our proposal approximately ten months ago and there has been no correspondence.

Chairman

We cannot really comment on that today.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Since I was elected to the Seanad, I have been highlighting the need for an expanded budget for English for speakers of other languages. If we do not invest in the English language skills of foreign people living in this country, such people will be a drain on the public services, such as the health and education systems. It would be wise to provide for an expanded budget, as the Chairman has suggested. What do the delegations think of that? We need to respect the desire of people from other countries to maintain their native languages through the family model that has been mentioned.

Chairman

I represent the Lucan and Clondalkin area, which is experiencing rapid population growth. It was the fastest growing part of Ireland three or four years ago. Most immigrants who come to Ireland are professionals. They are not asylum seekers or economic migrants - they are economic professionals. In my constituency, there are nurses from the Philippines and Nigeria, doctors from Pakistan and other professionals from eastern Europe. They do not necessarily live in social and affordable housing. Many of them are in rented housing but are trying to get onto the property ladder. Between 30% and 40% of the houses in some estates in Lucan are rented. I would like to follow up what Senator Healy Eames said about planning by asking a rhetorical question. The answer to the question may be obvious, but it is a message that needs to be transmitted. Do the delegations think there should be more planning in new communities, in which new arrivals from other countries tend to live? Do the witnesses wish to throw any specific experiences or comments into the mix?

Departments and local authorities have not prepared adequately in the past. They are starting to do so now, which is necessary. The new developing areas unit, which is beginning to provide schools as houses are built, is playing catch-up. What can be done at this stage on the ground in existing areas like those, to which Mr. Forde referred, in which 40% or 50% of the schoolgoing population is of African origin? It would not be right to ask people to travel miles to more integrated settings. Is there any short-term solution?

I would like to speak about the qualifications of primary teachers from other countries. Ms Asgard said she is probably the only primary teacher in the system who comes from a certain background. While I do not want to ask about her personal details per se, I think she has something relevant to say. She could send a loud message to the Department. I assume the Irish language requirement does not apply to Ms Asgard because she works in the learning support area. Did she have to get the scrúdú le haghaidh cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge? Perhaps she did. How does she think we can attract more people of her professional standing and experience to come to work in our schools? Does she think teachers with full qualifications from other countries should be exempt from the Irish language requirement? How can we attract more people to the profession who are better equipped to cope in an intercultural setting?

Mr. Brendan Forde

The Chairman suggested that the Department of Education and Science sets the bar too high for teachers coming into this country. Ms Asgard was turned down by several schools before she got a job. We have a Polish teacher in the school. The problems associated with teacher registration and paperwork are such that a smart teacher will be in the system for two years, at least, by the time the Department catches up with him or her. If four years have passed by the time we have finished arguing with the Department about our decision to hire Ms Asgard and the Polish teacher, they will be entitled to permanent jobs under employment law. It is important for teachers to use all the systems. Some of them do not seem to know how to get around all these issues.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Do pension entitlements kick in after a certain period of time as well?

Mr. Brendan Forde

One cannot be denied such entitlements under employment law.

Ms Annie Asgard

I would like to comment on the issue of professional qualifications. My bachelor of education degree took five years, whereas the BEd degree in Ireland takes just three years. That topic is being raised. The American course I followed did not involve instruction on how to teach religion or Irish. I was doing something for the additional two years I spent studying. I had to take a full course - three hours a week for the full five years - on various aspects of multiculturalism, such as developing multilingualism, language and culture. That was part of my training and would be part of every teacher's training.

Chairman

It is not recognised by the Department per se.

Ms Annie Asgard

My qualifications are recognised and I am registered with the Teaching Council.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

That is wonderful. If one is registered with the Teaching Council, one has got into the system.

Mr. Brendan Forde

It takes time. Several schools are blinded by the fact that somebody might not have Irish. I have absolutely nothing against the Irish language. Tá a lán Gaeilge againn i nGaillimh. Barriers of this nature should not prevent people from other countries from working in Ireland. The Polish woman teaching in our school is encountering great difficulties. She is working as an interpreter and communicator with the many students of Polish origin in the school. She looks after their needs and advises them on civil rights, etc., which is how things should be done if we are to create a non-segregated community.

It is wrong that 20% of houses are not given over as they should be. Builders should not be able to buy their way out of that. One cannot put certain groups of people in one place in a manner that leads to ghettoisation. We need to spread these people so they are located around the whole city. If we want to be a cohesive society, we must act as if we are one. We should not be split into disparate groups.

Ms Annie Asgard

I will respond to some of the members' comments. We are looking for capital funding for our programme. If we are teaching native languages, we need to get certain renewable resources. We will continue to have them and use them. The Government is very frugal. Rather than constantly worrying about getting more space, we should focus on the schools which are already open. We have electricity, computers and people. It is obvious that teachers will be needed to work in the family school model. Ideally, the teachers will be like me - bilingual or multilingual.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is that not currently funded?

Ms Annie Asgard

It is not up and running. We have no funding. It is not in existence at the moment. That is part of the reason we are here.

Mr. Brendan Forde

We keep asking when it will be brought into existence.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

How much does the delegation reckon it will cost?

Ms Annie Asgard

It will cost approximately €50,000 in the first year and considerably less thereafter.

Chairman

Perhaps the Department can use it as a pilot project.

Ms Annie Asgard

Yes.

Mr. Brendan Forde

We have met the Minister of State with responsibility for integration, Deputy Conor Lenihan, in the Dáil. We have asked about this matter on a number of occasions. We see it as the way forward if a unified society is to be created. There is no other option. Having worked among the Irish community in England - I brought emigrants to work on the buildings - I am aware of what people have to endure in ghettoised situations. Many Irish people in places like Camden Town did not see much of London other than their workplaces, their homes and the pub. That is how a downward spiral develops.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The main exploiters of Irish people were gangmen and landladies from their own community who were ripping them off.

Mr. Brendan Forde

That is what I am concerned about.

Ms Annie Asgard

I would like to respond to some of the questions which were asked earlier. I have a lot in common with Ms Fiona Ní Fhaoláin, whom I have met at various events. People like Fiona and I have developed expertise in this area, but are not being utilised. I facilitated an on-line language support training course for the INTO in Marino earlier this year. All teachers should receive such training. Integrate Ireland Language and Training, which was originally contracted to provide English language support to migrants, is offering no training this year. The Department asked Integrate Ireland Language and Training to develop the curriculum for teaching English in primary and secondary schools. Unfortunately, it recommended an inappropriate business model of English that was watered down for primary schools. The one-day seminar that was developed in support of that model is not being run this year. I sent Deputy Quinn an e-mail about that matter. This country's provision in this area is totally inadequate. In every other native English speaking country, students can do a four-year degree on teaching English to primary level pupils as a second language. That is all they do for four years. The three-year BEd will not suffice.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is it not obvious that we are surviving by the seat of our pants? This issue has not been thought out. I am surprised by Ms Asgard's comments because the model I observed in her school was integrated and the family model is being built into its schooling. How are interpretation and translation being addressed?

Ms Annie Asgard

We are trying to find experts. Mr. Forde referred to a particular student whose parents will not have the child assessed. Unfortunately, these issues will not go away and we cannot continue to fail to address the needs of these children. We have a Spanish student who was adopted from India. No one is available to assess her despite the fact that English is her third language and she has serious learning difficulties. While I speak a good deal of Spanish, I am not a school psychologist, nor am I qualified to indicate that the child has a particular problem. It is difficult to secure a NEPS assessment and virtually impossible to include language in it. We are sticking Band-Aids on everything all the time. This area needs to be addressed.

A question was asked on policy. While the NCCRI's intercultural education guidelines provide a beautiful model, I guarantee that not more than a handful of schools are aware of them, know where to find them or would even take the time to read them. On several occasions, I have pointed out to the NCCRI that the lack of training on implementing the guidelines means they sit on the shelf.

Mr. Brendan Forde

Economic reality was mentioned in the context of the curriculum. Members will have read several times of how foreigners are exploited. It is sad that this would occur in a mature society given what it has come through. The programmes seek to address this issue in terms of civil rights and entitlements, how people from other countries should contribute to society and generally integrate to create a more cohesive society. Parents should be taught and given ways to negotiate areas such as health and social services to which they need access but know nothing about. They may have a nine or ten year old child learning English who acts as interpreter, does the shopping and so forth in the new society. This is bound to have repercussions in terms of frustration, drink problems and lack of outlets.

The practice of having whole families - parents and perhaps two children - in one bedroom in a reception centre amounts to incarceration rather than integration. These issues need to be addressed humanely if we are to build a society. We are rich enough to do so. While we send money abroad, we are neglecting what is under our noses. I emphasise that the Government must take serious action to promote the types of programme we offer. It should be replicated in many parts of the country, although our model should not be considered the be all and end all just because we developed it. We invite people to contribute, enlarge and develop it and to make it accessible.

Deputy Joe Behan

I thank the three organisations for the work they are doing. The questions I had proposed to ask have been answered. I do not want my silence to be misconstrued as I have listened carefully to the proceedings. I am impressed with the presentations and believe members will support, validate and encourage the work being done in this important area.

Chairman

I echo the Deputy's sentiments.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Would it be justified to use some of our development aid budget, which will soon reach €1 billion per annum, to integrate asylum seekers in the manner in which Mr. Forde describes, for example, to eliminate incarceration?

Mr. Brendan Forde

That is terrible. It is terrible that--

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We are sending millions of euro to governments which have no proper accountability. Recently, there were instances of corruption at a very senior level in Tanzania, a major recipient of Irish cash. The commitment to allocate 0.7% of our GDP to development aid, which we all share, means this cash is growing into a mountain. Third World development also applies to refugees who have ended up on our shores. Perhaps we should think laterally and access this funding for this purpose.

Mr. Brendan Forde

I do not favour curtailing our commitment to other countries. It is simply a case of charity beginning at home. We are oblivious to the fact that Ireland is becoming a new country. This will have repercussions down the line. To take the recent tragic deaths in Drimnagh, people have said these killings were not racist. If the two lads in question had been Irish, would they have been killed?

Ms Annie Asgard

There is also a European Union dimension to this issue. We travel back and forth in Europe. Ideally, I would love to see the students I teach being able to return to their home country and communicate in their native language - I cannot do this - or be able to read a newspaper in Prague or Warsaw. It is sad that this is highly unlikely for the current generation.

I draw members' attention to the report on Migration and Integration Policy in Ireland of the Joint Committee on European Affairs of March 2007, which recommends the "Prioritisation of one-stop-shops in larger urban centres to provide immigrants with information about State services, Irish history and customs, as well as immigrants' own responsibilities and obligations vis-à-vis the State”. This is not taking place. The Minister of State with responsibility of integration, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has a large list of tasks he must complete. In a very small way, let us at least try to do our bit. We provide a one-stop-shop and will bring people in from outside, hopefully on a voluntary basis. That is best practice as research has shown. The avenue we offer is needed. I live in hope that something similar to what we offer comes to fruition, even if it is not done by the NCCRI.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Forde and Ms Asgard for their presentation. Attention will be paid to today's discussion and I hope a source of funding will be found.

To return to the first presentation, there is no point in reinventing the wheel. We have a proposal for a national intercultural education strategy and we also have centres of excellence at primary and secondary level providing family integration and supports. If the schools in question were to be used as pilot projects, we would not need to look elsewhere. All members concur on that.

I thank both delegations for attending this informative meeting. I am pleased we had a little controversy because it stimulates debate and causes people to listen much more than would be the case if we had bland statements. We all agree that the issue extends much wider than education. We hope the relevant line Ministers will take on board the contributions today.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10 April 2008.