JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 10 Apr 2008

Funding of Primary Schools: Discussion with Management Bodies.

Chairman

I welcome Monsignor Dan O'Connor, who will make a short presentation outlining the concerns of the primary management bodies regarding primary school funding. Members can then ask questions. A number of the delegation have attended the committee before but it is standard protocol to draw their attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the delegation for attending. I ask Monsignor Dan O'Connor to begin his presentation.

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

On behalf of management organisations representing the national mainstream schools and special schools in Ireland we thank the committee and the Chairman for making time to listen to our presentation on the serious state of the finances in the schools we serve during the current year.

I am the general secretary of the Catholic Primary Schools Management Association. I am accompanied by Mrs. Antoinette Buggle of the National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education, Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin of Gaelscoilleanna, Mr. Dónal Ó Conaill of Foras Pátrúnachta na Scoileanna Lán-Ghaeilge, Canon John McCuIlagh of the Church of Ireland Board of Education, Mr. Paul Rowe of Educate Together and Mr. Shahzad Ahmed-Quidwai of the Islamic Education Board.

Irish primary education is a State-aided not State-funded system. The State aid the schools receive does not and never did meet the costs of operating a school. The chronic underfunding of primary schools has taken place under Governments of all political parties for many years.

A child's education begins in primary school. Failure to ensure schools receive adequate funding to meet their day-to-day requirements has resulted in a three-tiered primary education system. The school community and area into which one is born will determine what the local primary school can offer. There are poor schools, struggling schools and wealthy schools.

Primary schools receive several grants from the Department of Education and Science, as set out in the first appendix. These grants are paid in December and June of each year. The salaries of teachers, special needs assistants and some secretaries and caretakers are paid directly by the Department. All other salaries, for the majority of caretakers, secretaries and ancillary staff, are paid by the board of management from departmental ancillary grants. In a school of 151 pupils, for instance, the ancillary services grant to pay for a secretary, a caretaker and cleaners in 2006-2007 was €22,116. The board of management is required to deduct PAYE and PRSI for the staff from the grant. In general, the grant for the payment of secretaries and caretakers is not adequate for the amount of work a secretary and caretaker has to undertake.

The document I have circulated sets out sample accounts for an average school, listing expenditure and costs. The total expenditure in this example is €53,200 and the total grant allocation from the Department is €30,000, leaving a deficit of €23,200. This is representative of the situation in schools throughout the State.

SIPTU and IMPACT, the trade unions representing caretakers and secretaries, are aware that the grants are insufficient. Some boards of management have had cases taken against them by their secretaries or caretakers in regard to salary payment. The Labour Court has directed that to justify the salary, secretaries' or caretakers' working hours must be reduced. The school then depends on the principal, teachers, board members or parents to fill in the duties that the secretary or caretaker can no longer cover.

Increased water charges in 2007 have already eaten into the increase granted in this year's budget. This means the money coming in from the Department of Education and Science must then be given to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government via the local authority. It is a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There is a significant discrepancy between the primary and secondary school grants. The capitation grant in 2007-2008 for a mainstream primary pupil is €178 while the corresponding allocation for a mainstream post-primary pupil is €331. This means that while a primary school will receive €178 for a sixth class pupil, the secondary school to which the same student moves in September will receive €331 for the year.

New and developing schools are mostly located in new residential areas where there are many young parents. The start-up grants from the Department of Education and Science are insufficient fully to equip classrooms, offices and staffrooms. The majority of these new schools are Educate Together and Foras na Gaeilge schools.

The shortfall in funding this year has seriously affected school in all sectors. Many Catholic primary schools are struggling to cope with insufficient funding. For example, a school in south Dublin city with 275 pupils experienced a shortfall in funding of €30,000. The trustees, a congregation of nuns, provided a loan of €10,000 to the school and paid the insurance, but the board of management must find a way to raise €12,000. Last year, this school was obliged to raise €20,000 in funds. A parish in north Dublin had to give a loan of €28,840 in 2005-2006 and another of €39,331 in 2006-2007 to keep the local school out of debt. A Dublin school within the Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS, system received a loan of €21,284 in 2006-2007 from the parish but still has a debt of €48,939.

As at 28 February last, a school in west Cork, as a consequence of its efforts to pay a caretaker and secretary a reasonable salary and to provide maintenance services, had a debt of €20,884 which can only be cleared by fund-raising and loans from the parish. Three Catholic schools in Dublin included in the DEIS programme have debts of €21,162, €77,876 and €50,259, respectively. These schools are located in areas where neither the parents nor the parish can fund-raise, so the diocese must carry the debts. There are 43 other schools in similar circumstances. A school in County Sligo faces an ESB bill of €1,265 for this quarter whereas the bill for all four quarters last year was €819. This school also faces water charges of €5,000. Its debt as at 4 April stands at €6,265.

The Educate Together schools network faces similar problems. Its annual survey assesses the budget deficit and fund-raising requirement of each school. This year, the per capita need has risen to €175 per pupil. In total, therefore, the 44 Educate Together schools must raise approximately €1.5 million to balance the books.

The schools under the patronage of An Foras Patrúnachta na Scoileanna Lán Ghaeilge are listed in the second appendix. These schools do not have a diocese or parish support. The 54 schools depend on the involvement and contribution of parents. The financial and fund-raising support ranges from €10,000 to €36,000 depending on the needs of the schools. Due to the departmental arrangements for issuing the first instalment of the capitation grant, An Foras Patrúnachta schools have difficulties in meeting their financial obligations during the first term, September to December.

There are 80 gaelscoileanna under the patronage of the Catholic bishops. One interdenominational gaelscoil is under the joint patronage of the Catholic and Church of Ireland bishops of Killaloe. These schools are supported by the dioceses and the parishes in which they are situated. Without this support over many years, the system would collapse.

Special schools affiliated to the National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education, NABMSE, are listed in the third appendix. Ms Antoinette Buggle will comment on this later. Special schools are primary schools where pupils remain until they are 18 years of age. In recent years, the population of special schools has changed and now includes children with severe behavioural difficulties and complex health issues. Behavioural difficulties can mean school property is destroyed and has to be replaced. Complex health issues mean there is a need for additional cleaning services, barrier supplies for staff, waste disposal, defibrillator training, specialised training for special needs assistants and bus escorts, a high level of water usage and higher heating costs.

Special schools also have to bear the cost of a bus and its running costs. A bus is not a luxury but a necessity to ensure pupils are included in generic activities such as horse riding, swimming and trips into town in line with curriculum guidelines. These activities are essential to special schools as they help prepare the students for adulthood. The cost of running a bus for a year in one small special school was €20,000. Another special school reports a vast improvement in students with autism when they moved from prefabricated accommodation to a newly-constructed building. Before the move, the pupils were unable to speak and were generally disruptive. They are now far less disruptive and all have begun to speak.

There are 200 schools under Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and Quaker patronage. These schools have always drawn on the support of their local communities. Increasingly, this support is being used to defray their day-to-day running costs. Families in the communities are contributing as much as €250. The shortfall in funding for these schools and the difficulties of fund-raising facing patrons, boards of management and local communities are the same as those facing Catholic school communities.

There are two primary schools under the patronage of the Muslim community. One of these is located in Clonskeagh, County Dublin, and the other operates out of rented accommodation in the former primary school of the Catholic Institute for the Deaf in Cabra. These schools depend on voluntary contributions from parents and loans from the Muslim community to survive.

The failure of the Government to address the financial needs of primary schools is affecting communities throughout the State. Schools are obliged to fund-raise to cover necessities such as utility bills and insurance and are forced to cut back on services in an attempt to balance the books. An increasing number of schools fail to do so and are running a deficit. Rising service charges, including water charges, are eating into the meagre increase in capitation grant in this year's budget.

Principals and boards of management are spending an increasing amount of their valuable time in fund-raising efforts. This inevitably impacts on the time available for educational activities. Patrons are obliged to assist schools with loans. The payment of secretaries, caretakers and ancillary staff is a major issue because of the inadequate grant to meet salaries. The State, meanwhile, insists on taking a VAT percentage from fund-raised moneys.

There is a glaring inconsistency in the amounts the State allocates to second level and primary children, despite the reality that costs make no such distinction. Fund-raising introduces a divisive element into the education system. Schools in well-off areas can compensate far more easily than those in less well-off districts for a lack of State funding. DEIS schemes for educational disadvantage often leave schools just outside the scheme in the worst situation. New and developing schools are also in a particularly poor situation in which they have insufficient funds to equip new classrooms fully.

Three appendices are attached to this submission. Appendix 1 provides the list of grants available, appendix 2 lists the number of schools and appendix 3 provides the returns for this year of a special school. On behalf of the management bodies, I thank the joint committee for its invitation to this meeting. Our members are more than willing to answer any questions members wish to ask of us.

Chairman

I thank Monsignor O'Connor. Members of the joint committee will now make supplementary comments and will ask questions of the monsignor and the other delegation members. Thereafter, we should be able to allow everyone to make a brief contribution in response within the time allotted. Any further supplementary questions will then be dealt with.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I thank Monsignor O'Connor and his colleagues from the primary management bodies for their attendance. It is unfortunate the joint committee is meeting just as the Minister for Education and Science is launching a babies' book scheme. A total of €400,000 will be spent on giving books to young mothers in the next year, which highlights how our priorities are wrong in respect of the destination of education funding.

Chairman

There is no relationship between the Minister's launch of the book scheme today and this joint committee.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I am making a comment in a free society.

Chairman

I considered it appropriate to point this out.

Deputy Brian Hayes

I understand the primary management bodies have written to the Taoiseach. What was the outcome of the correspondence with the Taoiseach seeking a meeting to discuss the crucial issue of funding? The witnesses should inform members in this regard. Monsignor O'Brien has painted an accurate picture of how schools are strapped for cash and has outlined the dire position faced by some schools. Effectively, they will go to the wall if they cannot get funding. How many schools across all the management bodies are in this position? While the Department of Education and Science operates a debt relief scheme, I understand that each time a school applies, responsibility effectively is passed back to the management bodies to pay the outstanding debt. The witnesses should comment in this regard.

Under information I recently received from the Revenue Commissioners, I understand that 10% of all schools now have obtained charitable tax designated status. Do the witnesses have a view in this regard given that schools in wealthier areas presumably now can obtain donations through charitable status? Do they have a view on the sustainability of allowing schools to be described as charities for the purposes of obtaining funds from benefactors?

Have the witnesses raised with the Department of Education and Science the possibility of allowing VAT refunds to the schools under their management? Schools are obliged to pay VAT at rates of up to 21% for various goods and services and this appears to be a logical way to help schools to surmount this financial crisis. Similarly, is it possible to put in place a national insurance scheme in order that insurance costs for schools, which I understand are escalating, would at least be underwritten by the State? In such a scheme, all schools would be covered as public buildings in the same way that public buildings are covered in the public service.

I thank the delegation for its submission which has highlighted what I consider to be the critical issue in education at present. Unfortunately, while the commitment of the Government to double capitation over its lifetime is in place, it is uncertain whether a doubling of capitation would resolve the problems. This issue appears simply to have been plucked from the air. Is it not time for an independent assessment of what is required to run a school? I refer to the financial resources to run a school during a school year and how such costs can be met over a period.

Senator Brendan Ryan

While my questions have been dealt with, I thank the delegation for its attendance. The picture that has been painted in such stark terms is much worse than I had anticipated and the manner in which it has been laid out is very helpful. The Labour Party has tabled a Private Members' motion in the Dáil seeking the doubling of the capitation grant. Although the programme for Government contains a such a commitment, the Minister's view is that this will take place over the Government's lifetime. I again thank the delegation for its presentation.

Deputy Joe Behan

I join the Chairman in welcoming the representatives of the primary education patron bodies. It is their second appearance since my election and subsequent nomination to this joint committee. I record the gratitude of the entire nation for the work done by patrons of all hues in support of the education system. The system has worked very well in the past and no doubt will work well in future. By extension, I thank the many nominees of the patrons to primary school boards of management throughout the primary education system for the voluntary service they provide to their communities and local schools.

Being a practitioner myself, I am aware that the issue of primary schools funding concerns every member of every board of management as well as every patron body. While some members may be tempted to become overtly political on this issue, one should recall a point in Monsignor O'Connor's submission, to which all members of the deputation obviously subscribe, that: "The chronic underfunding of primary schools has taken place under Governments of all political parties for many years." No one present can state that any party has consistently or adequately ensured proper funding in primary schools.

However, I reject the notion that no improvements have been made. It is important to consider appendix 1 in particular, which lists 26 individual grants that now are available to primary schools under the many different headings listed therein. Until approximately ten years ago, many of the grants in question were not available to assist with primary education, the running of primary schools and, in particular, in the quality of educational provision. It is fair and just that the deputation has included mention of the aforementioned grants and the public may not be fully aware of the level of grant aid available in respect of individual subject areas. In addition, it must be noted that the DEIS scheme to fund disadvantaged schools has been a highly successful initiative, especially on the part of the present Minister. While it may not be fully adequate, it certainly constitutes a genuine attempt to assist schools in the least well-off areas.

I will turn to some specific issues. Monsignor O'Connor mentioned that, as members are aware, there are different categories of school. Some parts of the country and some parts of the major cities are more affluent than others. Monsignor O'Connor and other members of the delegation may wish to comment on whether schools under their respective patronage carry significant credit balances on an annual basis. I refer to the type of schools that are organised in a manner that enables them to get charitable status and to ensure they receive generous donations from parents who are quite well off. If such schools carry significant credit balances and do not use the money they possess, should a scheme be established to share in some way those resources with other schools under the witnesses' patronage? Alternatively, would the witnesses consider such a request to be unreasonable? I welcome their opinion in this regard.

Monsignor O'Connor will recall that the last time the delegation attended a meeting of this joint committee, the issue of water charges was under discussion. The monsignor drew members' attention to the fact that some schools had been successful in negotiating reductions in the water charge demands that had been made by local authorities. It is important to note that Donegal County Council recently has made a decision to waive all water charges that were extant up to this year. I consider that other local authorities should follow that example. It would ensure all schools would start with a level playing pitch using the much better and fairer system announced by the Minister for Education and Science just before Christmas.

I welcome the opportunity to hear the deputation's views. I am aware that this issue always has posed difficulties for schools and probably will continue to so do in future. However, I do not doubt that the Government will be committed to doing the best it possibly can to address the issue as we embark on difficult economic times.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I thank Monsignor Dan O'Connor for his presentation on behalf of the delegation. His presentation was not news to me as I am very familiar with the type of debt in primary schools to which he referred. Regularly, in my area of Galway, I write cheques for "Who Wants to be a Thousandaire", our new form of fund-raising, and dog nights. Two weeks ago, I wrote cheques totalling €600 for four schools. That a school can be refused is ridiculous. I must comment on the previous speaker's suggestion that schools that have burst themselves fund-raising must share their resources with other schools. This is a cop-out for the Government, which has been in power for 11 years. What are the proposals to save schools in the event of the Government continuing to default on its commitments, thereby leaving the situation as is? What is the way forward and how can we manage the situation when the Government is failing to listen? Has the impact on teaching and learning been considered or estimated?

The majority of school principals are teaching principals and receive only a few hours of secretarial support. At the recent INTO conference, it was stated that principals are getting approximately six hours of support, although I stand to be corrected. It was pointed out that even an extra six to eight hours per week would help principals manage more efficiently and teach. Regularly, they are interrupted during their teaching time. This has wider repercussions than can be assessed on a balance sheet. I look forward to our guests' responses.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I welcome the delegation and thank Monsignor O'Connor. We appreciate that this is the second time he has been present in a short period. The issues of funding for primary and post-primary schools — I was a secondary school teacher — and the differential between vocational education committees and the voluntary sector have been on the agenda for many years. I do not accept the opinion that the Government is not committed to listening and the Minister is not committed to redressing the situation. In the programme for Government, there is a commitment to double capitation in the Government's lifetime. As Deputy Behan highlighted, a significant number of initiatives have been introduced whereby schools can access funding.

I have a question on a matter raised by Deputy Brian Hayes, that is, VAT. The question of how schools can redress this issue and regain the money to help them should be explored. Monsignor O'Connor stated that schools have been "forced to cut back on services in an attempt to balance the books." Are the services extracurricular or those that would affect the day-to-day running of and teaching and learning in the schools?

Senator Pearse Doherty

Cuirim fáilte roimh an toscaireacht agus an cur i láthair cuimsitheach atá déanta ag na toscairí. Tá a fhios againn uilig go bhfuil géarchéim ann atá ag dul ar aghaidh le tamall fada ó thaobh airgead do scoileanna sa Stát. Léiríonn an cur i láthair na fíricí go soiléir agus tugann na figiúirí agus na samplaí ar na scoileanna eolas dúinn nach raibh againn roimh ré. Cuirim fáilte roimhe sin.

I am aware of the chronic under funding in primary education and the fact that the Government has not addressed it until now. One political party in the State can claim that it has not been involved in the chronic under funding of education, namely, Sinn Féin. We have not had an opportunity to——

Deputy Brian Hayes

It did other chronic things.

Senator Pearse Doherty

——take part in Government yet.

Deputy Joe Behan

The reason is that people did not vote for Sinn Féin.

Senator Pearse Doherty

We have received more votes than some of the parties in government, but that is neither here nor there. I say it to correct the earlier comment.

This is just one issue involved in the under funding of education, the only way to resolve which is to increase overall spending. We know the statistics that place us at the bottom of the spending league of OECD countries. I have called on the Government to increase spending incrementally to a level of 6%. Not only are boards of management being starved of funding, but there are issues in respect of class sizes, the schools building programme and so on.

Concerning the information provided, the average school has a deficit of €23,200. Multiplied by the 3,000 primary schools, an estimate of the amount necessary to balance the books is approximately €80 million. Has this calculation been made? Regarding Educate Together schools, the amount to balance the books is €1.5 million, an average of €34,000 per school. Is information available as to how much money must be fund-raised or provided by the Minister for Education and Science so that schools are not in the red?

We have details on three of the 46 schools mentioned in the report. One has a debt of €77,000. If this issue is not resolved and each school's deficit increases by €23,200 per year, what future have the 46 schools?

When our guests attended the committee previously, I mentioned that councils waiving water charges could become a reality. I welcome that Donegal County Council has done so, but I am disappointed that the Minister questioned the council on it.

It would be remiss of me not to mention the payment of caretakers. I welcome this issue's inclusion in the presentation because the statistics provided to the committee recently show that, in some cases, secretaries are being paid approximately €6.02 per hour by boards of management. It is unacceptable and illegal, but the figures presented explain why it occurs. While it should not be tolerated, I lay the blame firmly on the Minister for Education and Science for not providing adequate funds.

Chairman

Do either Senator Ó Domhnaill or Deputy Ó Fearghaíl wish to comment or ask questions? No. As I asked members to keep their questions to two minutes to allow other delegates to put their opinions across, I will put my stopwatch on and give myself two minutes. I apologise, as Deputy O'Mahony had indicated his desire to speak. He can go first.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I will keep well within the two minutes. I thank Monsignor O'Connor for his articulate presentation, which puts the situation in stark terms.

Regarding appendix 1, will our guests comment on the grants, particularly the physical education grant and the effect on schools of the withdrawal of the summer works scheme this year? Is it the case that schools have no facilities to use the equipment provided to them under the physical education grant?

The scandalous treatment of caretakers and secretaries has been mentioned. The ancillary care grant may need to be used elsewhere. Would the direct payment of the secretaries and caretakers by the State be a solution?

Chairman

I thank the Deputy, who has shown the precision and discipline of a true GAA manager.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Chairman must follow that contribution.

Chairman

I will try. I will ask a devil's advocate question with all sincerity. What efforts are the patron bodies making to ensure their schools are as fiscally responsible as possible and are spending wisely and efficiently? Particularly in terms of rising oil costs, what investments have been made to consider alternatives? In terms of lights being switched on, it may seem like a stupid question but I am playing devil's advocate.

Deputy Brian Hayes — forensic as usual — questions whether doubling capitation to meet post-primary level is the correct way to go. Perhaps an analysis is required. What are the views of the delegation? There is no reason primary children should not get the same amount of money. We do not have school meals here so where is the difference in cost?

Deputy Joe Behan refers to successive Governments failing to provide money, a point with which I agree. Investment has increased but only in relative terms. We are still far behind on an EU level. What does the delegation suggest? What can it commit to doing in terms of spelling it out? No party has given the commitment to long-term education funding needed. The delegation must spell out for slow learners the cost of not investing in education from primary school level. The cost of putting a child through school and providing a reasonable education, including children with special educational needs, must be compared with the costs of low income, incarceration and lower tax revenue. We must address this in stark economic terms. Does the delegation agree that taxes must be raised or is it a case of the Government wasting money and that the budget should have been spent on something else?

What is the opinion of the delegation on the economy slowing down? Last year was a great opportunity to live up to the commitments of the programme for Government. The argument that the economy is slowing will now be used because there is less money available. How important is investment on education?

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

I will answer some of the questions before I hand over to my colleagues. Regarding insurance, in the Catholic sector, all parish primary schools and all parish property is insured by Alliance. This lowers the cost of insurance, which is decreasing in our sector. Regarding pooling of funds between schools, in the diocese of Dublin the Share collection was started by Archbishop Ryan. That money goes from wealthy parishes to poor parishes. Are we asking these people to double the contribution again?

Concerning water rates, we would gladly be involved in a move to save water. I am on the board of management of St. Clare's school in Harold's Cross, a green school. We have several energy saving measures, from toilets to the use of the school. The cutback on services is serious. In some schools there are no extracurricular activities in the winter time because the school cannot afford the oil and electricity bill.

Deputy Conlon asked the way in which cutbacks affect us. The City of Dublin VEC and the archdiocese of Dublin conducted a survey 15 years ago on children in health area 7 in Dublin. In this area, the children were not completing primary school in the Catholic sector. Those who were completing primary school were continuing to post-primary school for only a few years and, unfortunately, a number of them were ending up in St. Patrick's Institution and Mountjoy Prison. The VEC was funding out of school activities for the primary and contributing money to the vocational schools and colleges in that district, as well as funding the school in St. Patrick's Institution. It considered a proposal involving money in the adult education of the parents, especially mothers, because if mothers had value in education the children would continue through.

I have been involved in education for 25 years. When I worked as the education secretary in the archdiocese of Dublin, the archdiocese contributed £1 million per year to the operation of the schools to make up for the shortfall. The worst year for the archdiocese was 1987. There are 46 Catholic schools in serious debt with no way of clearing the debts. If the parish cannot pay the patron must take up the slack. I know of one religious congregation of sisters where they could not afford to refurbish the yard. One of the sisters had retired from school that year and her lump sum, which she received for 40 years teaching, went into refurbishing the yard.

The situation is very serious although we acknowledge the great increase in grants. The appendices of our submission list the grants but, as Senator Doherty stated, if €80 million extra was put into education our debts would be cleared. Even with that, the question of the local contribution remains. We are lucky because we have the parish, the patrons and the religious congregations to support and keep the schools open. Other hidden costs exist. The Department is aware of the 46 schools in debt from the Catholic sector because I have sent in their accounts. The Department has had the accounts since 2006. We do not deny the increase but there is a huge shortfall.

Deputy Brian Hayes

What about debt relief?

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

Debt relief has been removed. The debt relief has gone into Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is there no debt relief at all?

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

There has been no debt relief since 2006. In the Catholic sector there are single people, who have never had a child in the school, fund-raising and collecting every day. Some go out collecting with buckets after mass every morning to pay the ESB bill of schools in the west of Ireland.

Chairman

I notice that Ms Buggle wishes to comment. I will allow every member of the delegation to comment because, although they are acting in unison, some are specialists.

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

There are, indeed, differences for special education.

Chairman

As well as special needs, various patron bodies have differences, particularly those that do not have the backing of the religious. In that context, I acknowledge that there would not be an education system in Ireland without the intervention of the religious.

Ms Antoinette Buggle

With regard to Monsignor Dan O'Connor's comment that ordinary primary schools have the backing of the diocese, most special schools were set up by parents and friends and, consequently, do not have the backing of a parish. The children are brought to the school from a wide geographic spread and therefore there may be only one child from any given parish. The difficulty in raising funds is increased in that case. One member referred to fiscal rectitude in schools. Members should see how carefully every penny is spent within a school.

My understanding comes from what I have seen of our special schools. In one school three quarters of the school is prefabs. How does one heat them sufficiently to keep warm children who are on ventilators and on oxygen? The school has three nurses who work full time and while it does not pay the salaries, the materials needed to peg feed, to resuscitate and do what nurses do with physically challenged children must be funded. This is besides the children who wreck the building. Prefabs suck up money in heating costs.

With regard to buses, people might wonder why the heck we send children horse riding and swimming. In many cases this is the only way a child gets out of a chair and finds his or her centre of balance and is the only physical education the child can access. Equally, swimming may be the only freedom a child has to move. The necessity to move a child out of the school building is still there but funding must be met. The Variety Club of Ireland is wonderful and provides buses to many schools. However, when they are received they must be insured, taxed and filled with diesel. Someone also needs the time to drive them.

If we are charged for water it will seriously affect special schools. It will put them on their knees, and they are on their knees already. The figures in the appendices are those of the lower of two schools adjacent to each other. The other school has a deficit of €113,000 and Deputy Ó Fearghaíl will know the school to which I am referring. This deficit must be met out of the begging bowl. It is sad to state in this day and age that children with special needs are dependent on the begging bowl. I did a straw poll of a cross-section of our special schools and asked whether they had a deficit. Not one said "No". The lowest, a school with only 24 extremely disabled children, had a deficit of €20,000 despite the fact its patron paid its insurance and paid for the bus.

One cost alone might amuse the committee. Because these children are severely disabled, the Department kindly provided bikes and paid for any major repairs which might be necessary. However, the small repairs alone cost more than €400 in one year. If one is to the pin of one's collar, €400 is a great deal of money. What I am trying to say is that not one special school operates with what it receives. As Monsignor O'Connor stated, we are grateful for the increases we received but they are not near enough.

Chairman

I thank Ms Buggle.

Mr. Dónall Ó Conaill

I thank the Chairman for inviting us before the committee. I wish to briefly comment on a few issues. With regard to the 54 schools under the patronage of An Foras Pátrúnachta, we must remember that parent involvement in the founding of these schools is essential. Without parent involvement we would not have the schools because they are interested in providing all-Irish education.

The costs and responsibilities of boards of management in our schools are similar to those of all other schools. The fact we are an all-Irish school does not make it any different. Somebody mentioned grants. Many grants are ring-fenced for a specific use. Consequently, they must be used for this purpose. They are not used for the everyday costs we incur.

With regard to balances, we insist the schools work within the balance. We do not have schools going into the red in the bank because we have no way of supporting them if they do. They work within what they receive. This is important because parents must come into the picture as they spend a great deal of time providing subscriptions through donations and fund-raising to ensure the schools remain within budget. This does not mean some of our schools are not over budget and the need to work to obtain is extremely important.

The idea of sharing money was an interesting point made by another speaker, I believe it was Deputy Behan. If one asks a parents' association in a particular place to share the money they spent a great deal of time collecting, I would not like to state where one would be told to go. In addition, many of our schools are in temporary accommodation. They need to put by money so the school's or parents' contributions can be made towards the building of a new school when the Department of Education and Science finds the resources to do so. During recent years, we have had new schools built and they are brilliant. When we get them everything is fine. However, it is difficult to find the costs in the lead up to this. It would be great if a system could be agreed whereby schools did not have to pay VAT. This would be extremely helpful.

Ms Bláthnaid Ní Ghréacháin

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. To clarify, Gaelscoileanna Teoranta is not a patron body. It is a co-ordinating body which liaises with other patron bodies and the Department of Education and Science. Many of our issues are similar to those raised by Mr. Ó Conaill. We represent the 135 gaelscoileanna. As stated by Ms Buggle, schools are founded by groups of parents and people in the community. Prior to a school being established, major fund-raising and parental involvement has gone into the establishment of the school. This economic burden is carried through the lifetime of the school.

When a school receives temporary recognition it receives a start-up grant of approximately €6,300. This is supposed to fully kit-out the school as well as cover curriculum materials and others. The amount of this start-up grant is the same be it for one class or seven classes, which seems ridiculous. In temporary accommodation, the schools are obliged to pay a rent contribution of approximately €3,175 which is a great deal of money in relative terms when it is being sucked from an already overburdened budget.

As Mr. Ó Conaill also mentioned, gaelscoileanna make every effort not to accumulate debt. However, An Foras Pátrúnachta does not have the luxury of carrying any debt accrued by the schools. They have no choice and cannot go into debt. Other areas and services suffer as a result of this. Of the 135 gaelscoileanna, approximately 50% are in temporary accommodation, most of which is extremely poor. This is a major factor. As mentioned by Ms Buggle, heating and other costs suck the money out of the budget to cover costs for poor accommodation in prefabs.

With regard to the summer works scheme, many schools had already made investment in advance of the notice that the scheme was being withdrawn. This carries major implications. Deputy Hayes raised the matter of the Taoiseach's response. He stated he would refer the matter to the Minister.

Canon John McCullagh

In terms of insurance, at second level community and comprehensive schools have State insurance. This is an option and would be an immediate saving because one of the issues we highlighted is the circular nature of funding. The State provides funding which then goes out of the schools elsewhere. It is possible that the State could arrange a block insurance and do it more effectively.

With regard to the environmental concerns raised by the Chairman, virtually every national school I pass has a green flag flying outside. This indicates the commitment of the school to energy conservation. With regard to the summer works grant, the board of education of the Church of Ireland did a survey of its schools and we represent management as well as patrons. The results showed that schools are carrying charges from professionals for the preparation of summer works of anything from €240 to more than €2,000. We were delighted to hear the Minister state the summer works grant will be available for the following year and that the applications will stand. This is welcome. However, this has disrupted a maintenance schedule in many schools where they may have replaced the windows on one side of the school and intended to do those on the other side. This all creates delay and in the meantime the fabric of the school worsens.

In terms of charitable status, it is very easy to point to schools where parents are making donations and the school is able to get back the grant through the charitable donations scheme. However, some schools were charging, of necessity, a small amount for photocopying, summer outings and for swimming. They should not have been charging for swimming if it was taking place within school hours, but they had to — either for the transport to or the swimming sessions themselves. In that context, parents were receiving little envelopes incessantly. A number of schools, after discussions with parents associations, decided to aggregate all of the costs and request a sum of €250, for which they would receive tax back.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is something they should not do. It is illegal.

Canon John McCullagh

I said this to a very senior person, who put his hands over his ears. That is the reality. While there are canny schools — all credit to principals who are coming up with these schemes — it is disguising matters and does not reflect the reality of the generosity that exists. Our parishes and diocese are funding schools to a significant degree. For example, the Department has provided a new building for a school under our charge and all credit to the Minister for that. However, the school must carry out the actual move and must face the fact that it will have to cope with increased enrolments. Despite all of this, it will not receive a start-up grant because it is not a new school as such. The parish and diocese has had to provide the school with a grant of €10,000. It is not a loan, but a grant and the money obviously came from sacrificial giving through the church.

In terms of the list of grants, one must note that some of them are one-off grants. The PE grant, for example, was a single grant and we do not believe it will recur.

One of the Deputies asked about the impact of the cutbacks in terms of services. When cutbacks are implemented, schools buy fewer books, reduce photocopying, defer the purchase of additional equipment and so forth. They are hit at all levels by cutbacks. The delivery of education is damaged and ultimately that means children leave national school less competent to cope with the world. This relates to what the Monsignor said earlier regarding children who eventually end up in State care.

Mr. Shahzad Ahmed-Quidwai

We have two Muslim schools, one in Clonskeagh and the other on the Navan Road in Cabra. Both schools are under the patronage of the Islamic Foundation of Ireland. Our schools would share the same concerns as their non-Muslim counterparts.

In the school on the Navan Road, the capitation grant is €15,000. The cost of light, heat and maintenance is €12,000, which means the school must be run on €3,000 per year. As my colleagues have stated, grants are given to schools for specific purposes. In that context, the bank balance of a school can be deceptive. There may be €50,000 in the bank account, but the money is earmarked for specific items such ICT, internet access, disadvantaged children, caretakers and so forth. If a school receives a grant for a caretaker or secretary, it cannot use the money for any other purpose.

I would not completely dismiss the suggestion that schools pool and share resources. However, I do not think it would be practical. It might be better to offset the interest on the debit balance of one school with the credit balance of another. This is something that would have to be teased out further and perhaps examined by an expert.

We examined the issues of VAT and charitable status approximately two years ago. We approached a reputable firm of accountants who told us that we cannot have the best of both worlds, that is, we cannot have charitable status and also claim back VAT. This is an area which deserves professional scrutiny.

Mr. Paul Rowe

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to address the committee. It is important to draw attention to the fact that all primary management bodies have come together on this issue. We have very different agendas and views on the matter but have come together because we have come to the conclusion that a doubling of the capitation grant is the key to improving the situation.

Deputies have asked for details on aspects of the issue but the main point we wish to make to committee members, the general public and all political parties, is the strategic significance of a well-funded primary education system. That is what is missing in this country. The four year old children starting primary school this September will be the key actors in the Irish economy and society in 20 years' time. That is what we are asking committee members, as politicians, to focus on.

We have an excellent system of management of primary education. Our education system is run in an incredibly efficient way. It is run by 21,000 volunteers. There is hardly a single full-time administrator of our primary schools anywhere in the country. In terms of a State service and social capital, this is a fantastic asset for the country but it is being undermined and demoralised by a lack of Government support. That is the most important point to be made here today.

I will attempt to deal with some of the specific questions raised but will not deal with those already addressed by my colleagues. The issue of VAT returns lies within the realm of charitable tax reform. It is a scandal that for every €4 that parents fund raise for schools, they must fund raise another €1 to pay the tax on that fund-raising.

Deputies asked how we know that a doubling of the capitation grant will solve the problem. While we do not know this for certain, the survey of the Educate Together schools, for example, concludes that €170 per pupil is a sufficient amount, which is almost exactly double the current capitation grant. If one examines the figures in other sectors it is clear that a doubling of the grant is the critical element in terms of balancing the books.

We believe it is the responsibility of the Government to address the question of any scheme whereby well-off schools would contribute to less well-off ones. It is not up to the schools themselves to try to cover up the gross inadequacies of State funding.

The impact of the problem on teaching and learning is considerable. At the Irish Primary Principals Network conference last year, for example, members were asked to consider refusing to fund-raise and to close schools if they ran out of money. This indicates the impact on the work of principal teachers, in that they are consistently worrying about money.

Some of the Government representatives here referred to the large number of initiatives on the part of the Department. While we welcome and recognise the initiatives that have been taken, it must be acknowledged that there is an administrative overhead attached to every single one of them, that the funding provided is for specific purposes and that it must be accounted for in that context. It does not address the fundamental lack of funding in the system as a whole. I draw the committee's attention to the sheer number of these initiatives and how they are addressed. Educate Together has suggested to the Department that instead of this myriad of small initiatives and grants, schools should receive one multi-page form at the beginning of the school year in which all grants are specified. The chair of the school's board of management could fill in the form and, like the single farm payment, would receive a tranche of money, thereby eliminating a huge amount of administration on the part of the school and allowing the Department to make considerable efficiencies.

In regard to the prospects for schools that are in trouble, our schools and, I understand, gaelscoileanna, have to balance the books because the rules for national schools make it illegal for a board of management to go into deficit without the formal permission of a patron who, in giving that permission, must be able to face the liability. Patrons that are not large institutions cannot take that economic risk. The result is that services are cut and schools potentially face closure because they cannot pay their heating bills or maintain the temperatures required by health and safety legislation. We are moving into a situation in the primary sector in which the financial difficulties encountered by schools will give rise to these problems.

The Chairman asked my opinion on the slowdown in the economy. It is a question of priorities. In essence, we are seeking an allocation of €82 million per annum from the Exchequer to address what in our opinion is the most important investment any state with pretensions to a knowledge economy must make. This is more important than an additional mile or two of motorway or a variety of other State programmes. We would like the committee's support in persuading the Government and the public of the importance of this for the future.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Rowe. With Monsignor O'Connor's permission, I propose to allow members to ask supplementary questions.

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

I would like also to address certain issues further.

Deputy Joe Behan

I thank the witnesses for their responses to members' questions. I asked the patrons' views on the possibility of schools sharing excess credit balances with areas that are less well-off. It is clear that none of the patrons, with the exception of the Islamic Board of Education, responded positively. I asked the question because I wanted to clarify the patrons' views on the issue.

Monsignor O'Connor responded by asking me whether I would expect people who contribute to parish share collections to pay on the double. I would not expect that but he must accept, especially in respect of the Dublin archdiocese, that a significant number of parents do not attend mass and, as such, do not contribute to the share collection. It may be the case, however, that because they live in an affluent area, they are more than capable of funding their schools. I would make an educated guess that some schools have significant credit balances.

My question has been answered regarding whether the witnesses feel the schools under their patronage have any responsibilities. I understand what the churches are doing but it appears school communities are not under any obligation to share in a collegiate manner. The sole exception is the Islamic Board of Education whose representative indicated that in certain circumstances it would be prepared to help with interest payments and other expenses. From my point of view, therefore, it is clear that the proposal would not receive a positive response.

Chairman

The Deputy has made his point and perhaps the representatives might clarify the matter.

Senator Brendan Ryan

It is obvious from the initial presentations and the responses to questions and suggestions from members that certain low hanging fruit has not been considered. The primary education sector is in financial crisis and the only solution is an increase in capitation grants. It is incredible that at least €35 million out of a budget of €9.3 billion has not been used to make an immediate increase of 50% to capitation.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Monsignor O'Connor referred to the fact that in 1997 the Dublin diocese was subventing primary education to the tune of £1 million. What is the current figure?

One of the issues that principals and managers of schools raise regularly with me concerns the two windows of opportunity for receiving grants, January and June. Does that need to be reformed and would it make it easier for schools in terms of budgeting and management if they were paid several times per year?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

It is clear that fiscal rectitude should be practised by the Department rather than the schools. I am familiar with the issue of prefabs, particularly in gaelscoileanna. Gaelscoil de hÍde in Oranmore is 14 years in existence and its 200 students are still accommodated in two prefabs on half an acre of land at a rent of in excess of €100,000 per year. That money could have serviced a huge mortgage, which reveals a lack of foresight on the part of the Department that must be replicated across the country. I hope the Minister is listening when I point to the need for fiscal rectitude.

I am also familiar with the challenges faced by special schools given that they do not have local catchment areas. I do not know how these manage. The computers provided to schools in 2000 are out of date but the funding is not available to replace them. My original questions were not answered. Has an assessment been made of the loss of teaching contact hours by principals, either because they have to waste their time on fund-raising or because they have insufficient secretarial support?

How much longer can this underfunding be sustained? Mr. Rowe referred to the possibility that schools will have to close. Has an assessment been made in that regard, given that the rules for national schools insist they must remain within budget. The day must come when a school decides it is all over.

Chairman

The Senator made her points very well.

Senator Pearse Doherty

The Minister intends to put the curriculum on a statutory footing and has entered consultations with patrons in that regard. Do the witnesses see a cost implication for schools, especially in respect of statutory physical education? Do the witnesses consider that if resources do not accompany it, extra costs will be put on the school?

The second issue concerns the capitation grant. Mr. Rowe mentioned that doubling the capitation grant would seem to address the problem as, on average, €175 a year per pupil is the deficit. The Minister is talking about doubling the capitation grant over the life of the Government. Have the witnesses tracked the increases in the running costs of a school from four or five years ago? If the Minister is intending to double the capitation grant over the lifetime of the Government, will we have a case of the running costs increasing by 10% or 15%?

Chairman

As Deputy O'Mahony does not want to add anything I will not allow more questions. Enough questions have been raised. From what the delegation has put forward, there is a clear need for an increased strategic investment. The importance of a well-funded education system has been duly noted by Members from all sides of the Oireachtas.

As Mr. Rowe indicated with regard to securing economic success in 2020, this may take initiative, investment and some sacrifice now. Now is the time, at the end of the Celtic tiger cycle, to put seed into place to reap rewards when economic conditions improve again. In that context, in as non-partisan a way as possible, I acknowledge that funding has been committed to in the programme for Government. It may not be as much as some people want but at least there is an increased commitment. The question is whether the money will come in over the lifetime of the programme for Government and how soon should it be introduced.

The capitation increase is the simplest way of addressing the shortfall, particularly as there is an imbalance between primary and secondary level. Given that it would only make up a fraction of the stamp duty cuts in this year's budget, I cannot see why the capitation grant could not be increased fully in next year's budget. I do not see why it should take the whole five years in any event. Deputies and Senators from all sides of the Oireachtas would agree on that.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Why would we be here then?

Chairman

There will be a new Minister for Finance but we do not know who he or she will be. The message should come out strongly and clearly from this committee that education is a serious priority. This issue is not just about platitudes but about our economic and social success in its broadest terms.

Monsignor O'Connor wished to contribute again and if anybody has a specific question that has not been addressed, he or she can indicate it. If not, I ask members to hold their fire.

Monsignor Dan O’Connor

I have a comment on VAT. I am 25 years on the go at this stage. Sister Eileen Randles — my predecessor — and I have gone to the Department of Finance every year after our annual general meeting, doing the rounds seeking reductions for schools in VAT issues. The answer has always been "No".

There is another issue concerning caretakers and secretaries. The Department of Education and Science gave a grant to extend the service of caretakers and secretaries, which was welcome. The grant was made but the reality is there are now two types of secretaries and caretakers in primary schools. These include the people under the 1978 scheme, who are paid directly by the Department, but as they retire they are not being replaced and the grant system becomes relevant.

Members of SIPTU and IMPACT — correctly, as unions — are visiting schools and cases are being taken against schools by individual caretakers and secretaries. When these cases go through a rights commission or the Labour Court, schools are directed to pay the caretaker, secretary or cleaner from the grant and take PAYE and PRSI out of it. I have attended these hearings.

As a result of this, the schools cut back on the hours and the principal teacher or member of the board of management does all the secretarial work voluntarily. Parents and board members could also take on the work of caretakers. This is all being handed back to ordinary lay people who are trying their best.

Another much-raised issue is the closing of schools in the Catholic sector. The last thing a parish will do is allow its school to close. People have made sacrifices in this regard. Archbishops McQuaid, Ryan and McNamara, Cardinal Connell and the current Archbishop of Dublin have built schools and put diocesan money into purchasing sites before putting a priest or church into an area. The reality is this cannot continue because of the price of land. If a diocese has land it will be invested for schooling but dioceses cannot continue, because of the price of land, to buy schools.

The decline in mass attendance is an issue. I mentioned a school in west Cork which has gone into debt to pay a caretaker and secretary, St. Finbarr's school in Bantry. The school would have no problem with me mentioning the name. Moneys are made up by the parish and the diocese of Cork and Ross.

There are areas in Dublin, Limerick and Galway where the parents and parish cannot possibly afford to pay for such expenditure. The bishop would then ask a wealthy parish to give part of its money to clear the debt. I do not want to give the impression that Catholic schools are running wild and spending all their money, running up huge debts. Catholic schools have the biggest number of pupils and there are significant issues of property and security of property after school hours.

As Mr. Rowe has already stated, we are looking for the doubling of the capitation grant. Across the country we reckon it will be €80 million. To answer Deputy Hayes's question, I imagine there will be a shortfall of approximately €20,000 per school, taking the whole country into account.

I must acknowledge the work the Department and officials have put into the issue and I also acknowledge the grants. Even with the doubling of the capitation grant, there will still be the obligation on the community to raise funds and pay for expenses. We are talking about raising funds for extras rather than the basic necessities in this respect. When there are children with special needs, and especially those in special schools, surely they deserve the best we can get.

The water rates issue will crucify schools, and Peter is being robbed to pay Paul. The Catholic bishops, in their latest document, have made a very clear commitment to continuing in Catholic education and the provision of schooling for as long as is required by Catholic parents. That means more secure areas will support newer areas in the establishment of schools. As Mr. Rowe has argued, if we are to invest, we should do so in the children of the country.

In 1940, John Charles McQuaid, in a pastoral letter to the diocese, stated:

To be entrusted with the education of a child is to be entrusted with the very future itself. Our children are the well springs of our society, the well springs of our State. Therefore, our primary schools and primary school teachers deserve the best we can get.

That was in 1940 and this is 2008. We are like the poor woman in the Gospel, still coming knocking at the door. She got her answer and we hope we will be able to get an answer by knocking at the door today. I thank the committee for its time.

Chairman

Does anyone else wish to contribute?

Mr. Paul Rowe

In response to the Senator, we have not made any quantitative assessment of the impact on teaching and learning. That type of research would be very welcome. We thought of suggesting to the committee that it may like to conduct an examination of the funding of an average national school and quantify certain factors.

The other question concerned the curriculum going on a statutory basis. There are very significant costs with regard to curricular materials involved in delivering the full revised curriculum. A startling element regarding new and developing schools is that there is no grant to provide curricular materials to such new schools to establish classrooms or to develop schools to enable them take on additional classrooms. This is particularly important because we are going through a phase in which there will be 100,000 extra pupils entering the education system. In the primary sector this equates to 7,300 classrooms, using the current maximum classroom guidelines. We calculate that it costs approximately €3,000 per class to provide the soft curricular materials a teacher needs and there is nothing to cover this. This is one of the biggest issues facing new schools. There is the start-up grant and last year Educate Together opened three schools. Our figures show that the average cost of starting up a school is €35,000, plus €3,000 per classroom. The board of management of a school can be sued if it does not cover the full curriculum, as is legally required, including aquatics. Schools must rent local swimming pools and so on and nothing in the grants system covers this.

Canon John McCullagh

Just to respond to Deputy Behan on credit balances, the devolved capital grant may accumulate for three years if there is a specific target, for example, the replacement of a heating system, as it is unlikely that a school will be able to do this through the minor capital works grant. Schools will have capital balances in certain accounts for specific areas. Similarly, some schools that have accessed funding through parents' donations may not know when they will be able to build extensions because the Minister has not indicated this. Such schools may choose to proceed with building works. I visited a small, rural school in County Tipperary that spent €60,000 over ten years, to show a credit balance, on building works that resulted in a resource area, a toilet for disabled pupils, a principal's office and a small classroom. This is where credit balances go.

Sharing is obviously a good idea but we should remember that a board of management is a corporate body and a patron cannot simply decree that money be taken from one area and sent to another. Government funds and parental funds may be involved; parents do not wish to see expenditure on running costs but on adding value to schools.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

One would require the permission of parents and one could risk losing the goodwill of parents in an entire community. If parents in my community felt they were raising funds for other communities they would no longer make donations.

Mr. Paul Rowe

It is important to recognise the extent to which schools co-operate, share and help each other in a wide range of activities. The point we were making is that parents would be affronted by the suggestion that the way to address a straightforward State obligation would be to further extend the exploitation of parents who are concerned about the education of their children. There is no question that parents and schools are not prepared to work together and share.

Chairman

I think this matter has been clarified.

Mr. Dónall Ó Conaill

I just wish to comment very briefly on what Senator Healy Eames mentioned with regard to rent on prefabs and so on. We acknowledge the generosity of the Department of Education and Science in providing for schools' rent in this regard. Figures I have here show that one school pays €186,000 in rent, another pays €63,000, another pays €126,000, another pays €45,000, another pays €86,000, another pays €179,000 and another pays €142,000. This emphasises that, while the Department is generous in providing this funding, it is a drain on moneys that could be spent differently.

Mr. Shahzad Ahmed-Quidwai

In response to Deputy Behan's contribution, I want to clarify that my comment related only to interest. I was making an impromptu mental calculation and sought to make an analogy with England where some schemes exist whereby a credit balance in one account can offset interest in a mortgage account.

Chairman

Perhaps the State could get involved in this.

Mr. Shahzad Ahmed-Quidwai

Yes. When one has a debit balance anything is welcome.

Chairman

Do any of the delegates wish to contribute more or has everything been covered?

We have had a good meeting in which every issue has been comprehensively covered. I thank the delegates for coming and educating the committee members. The report will be sent to the Minister and the Department officials because it is important they know what is happening. Other people will attend here to address different issues in future but I thank the delegates for coming together to make a strong point.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 April 2008.