JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE debate -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2009

Educational Reform: Discussion with Dáil na nÓg.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Jake Walsh from south Tipperary, Mr. Gavin Cawley from Sligo, Ms Mary Golden from County Mayo and Ms Deirdre Mullan from County Monaghan, all of whom are Dáil na nÓg council members. Apologies have been received from Ms Jessica Brennan from County Laois.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The same applies to visiting delegations. I hope the presentations by the Dáil na nÓg representatives will be as forthright and critical as possible but they should be careful because anything that is potentially libellous can and will be used against them. They should be as strong as they can while remembering they are not covered by the same privileges as Deputies and Senators. Having asked them to be as diplomatically forthright as possible, they should begin the presentation.

Mr. Jake Walsh

I thank the joint committee for inviting us and allowing us to speak before it. We are all members of the Dáil na nÓg council and the education reform group. We are here to speak on the issue of guidance counsellors who are not meeting the needs of Irish students. Before I begin, I will allow the other members of the delegation to introduce themselves.

Ms Deirdre Mullen

I represent Monaghan Comhairle na nÓg.

Ms Mary Golden

I represent Mayo Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Gavin Cawley

I represent Sligo Comhairle na nÓg.

Mr. Jake Walsh

I represent south Tipperary Comhairle na nÓg. Ms Mullen will speak about Comhairle na nÓg and Dáil na nÓg

Ms Deirdre Mullen

Comhairle na nÓg is the local youth council. Each of the 34 county development boards is responsible for the council in its area. Comhairle na nÓg is funded by the Office of the Minister of State for Children and Youth Affairs and local agencies. Its role is to give children and young people a voice in local decision making. Its ideal is to be the youth version of a county council. The operation of Comhairle na nÓg varies across the country, from full support from some CDB organisations to inadequate support from others.

Dáil na nÓg is the annual national youth parliament for teenagers. It is funded and overseen by the Office of the Minister of State for Children and Youth Affairs. The National Youth Council of Ireland, Foróige and Youth Work Ireland work with the office of the Minister of State in organising it. Some 200 delegates are elected to the Dáil na nÓg council through their local Comhairle na nÓg. Each of the 34 comhairle elects one delegate. The council follows up on recommendations made by Dáil na nÓg and tries to have changes made for young people in these areas. The issues discussed at Dáil na nÓg 2008 were teen mental health and education reform. The council meets once a month in the Office of the Minister of State for Children and Youth Affairs and works in two groups, one for each theme. We are part of the education reform group.

On Dáil na nÓg day in Croke Park all delegates are asked to vote by means of an electronic system on the statements prioritised in the discussion group during the morning session. Each statement requires an answer of yes or no, agree or disagree. As delegates vote, the results are instantly available. This system of voting ensures every delegate has his or her say on every statement. After all the statements have been voted upon, delegates are then asked to rank them in order of importance. The ranking indicates the issues considered most important by Dáil na nÓg delegates, thus providing a very clear mandate for the Dáil na nÓg council.

The top ten recommendations range from language teaching in schools to counselling services and leaving certificate reform. Among the top three Dáil na nÓg recommendations is the idea that language subjects should be more relevant to everyday life: in pre-exam years one should take part in mandatory Gaeltacht and foreign trips; there should be more of a focus on the oral aspect and culture in the teaching of all languages; and all teachers should receive training in guidance counselling and communication skills.

At first we picked items Nos. 4 and 6 which dealt with continuous assessment for the leaving certificate but on further research realised much was already being done behind the scenes. We decided to go with items Nos. 3 and 7 from the education results — that all teachers should receive training in guidance counselling and communication skills; that individual career guidance should be improved in all skills; and that there should be mandatory visits to school guidance counsellors by students to remove stigma and encourage positive mental health.

We know that owing to the recession many cutbacks have been made in the education budget for 2009. This is a great mistake because during previous recessions the Government invested in education which sent Ireland into the Celtic tiger years. It also meant young people were better prepared to participate in a growing economy and made Ireland more competitive with other countries.

As part of our research we met the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, IGC, and guidance counsellors in our schools and researched reports such as the Audit of Guidance Counselling in Post-Primary Schools and relevant websites such as that of the IGC. Most importantly, we spoke to our peers. In a survey carried out in one school we found that 92% of students in one class were unaware that guidance counselling offered services outside educational and career guidance. Some 7% of students were not aware of the basic role of guidance counsellors and 38% stated they were unaware of any place to which they could go within the education system with a personal problem. Most shockingly, 11% of sixth year students had never met their guidance counsellor. Although the survey relates to only one school, the opinion is common to all of our schools. There was much misinformation before we became part of this group and engaged in our research. We found out that the full role of the guidance counsellor was broken up into three main areas, personal and social — dealing with skills such as self-awareness, decision making, planning, the development process and advice; education — dealing with assessment, study skills, motivation and subject choice; and career — dealing with employment awareness, vocational choice, job searching, development processes, advice and assessment. Guidance counselling services in general are in place to develop an awareness and acceptance of one's talents and abilities, explore possibilities and opportunities, increase independence and allow young people take responsibility for themselves.

Mr. Gavin Cawley

Each school should have a guidance plan, in which students should have a say. When there are inspections, schools receive at least two weeks' notice but this should not happen, as it gives them time to temporarily improve their service and return to normal.

I will discuss how guidance counselling hours are divided. The table in our presentation gives a breakdown of the allocation of guidance counselling hours, depending on school size. Students receive an average of 1.5 to 2.5 minutes counselling each week, which is clearly not enough to allow for any kind of relationship to build between the student and the counsellor. The number of students used in the sample is 200 who receive eight hours each week — this breaks down to one minute and 36 seconds per student. A school with more than 1,000 students would receive 47 hours each week, which breaks down to two minutes and 33 seconds per student. Clearly, there is a big difference and it is unfair on schools with fewer students.

Appropriate supports and policies are not always in place in dealing with bereavement or other personal problems that may affect a student. There is not enough information for students on the purpose and value of guidance counselling. As a result, they are not fully aware of the benefit of such counselling. There is a lack of confidence in guidance counsellors, as a maths teacher may double as a guidance counsellor. There is not enough time or resources to build a relationship with students. The relationship between teacher and student may not be strong because a student may meet a counsellor once in five years.

All teachers should receive training in guidance counselling. Guidance counsellors are not always available when a student wishes to speak to one, as they have different hours from those of students. It is seen as a service rather than a right; the opposite should be true — a student should have the right to speak to a counsellor if he or she has a personal problem.

There are varying standards across the board — some schools have very good counsellors, while others provide a poor service. The table demonstrates that it is unfair on smaller schools, as one with 200 students offers less time than one with more than 1,000. Guidance counsellors should be well connected with services in the area such as those offered by sports centres or youth-friendly initiatives.

Ms Mary Golden

I will go through some of our recommendations. All teachers should receive training in guidance counselling and communications. As a young person, one of the most important authoritative figures in life, after one's parents, is the teacher. School is an integral part of a young person's life and we should not limit a teacher's role to merely teaching the syllabus. It should extend to helping young people through a transitional stage in life.

Teachers should be given counselling skills to help young people deal with everyday matters. Individual career guidance should be improved in all schools; a one-on-one service is required. A person's mental health is a complex issue. One-on-one guidance counselling would help counsellors to recognise mental health issues which arise among young people. This should be a right, not a service, as Mr. Cawley has stated. Everyone has a right to good mental health and, as most problems arise in adolescence, it would make sense to cut off problems at source. We also believe obligatory visits to guidance counsellors would help to remove stigma and encourage positive mental health. As members know, the Government has taken many steps to tackle the stigma attached to mental health. It attaches to guidance counselling also. If meetings with guidance counsellors were made mandatory in each school, the role of the guidance counsellor would evolve in order that the counsellor, rather than being seen just for troubled students, would become part of school life.

A more flexible service is needed. Guidance counselling services are so stretched that it is like the M50 during rush hour. The facilities are available but one does not make much progress. I spoke to my own guidance counsellor and she had many recommendations. She was working hours that were not timetabled and when a student came to see her, she would not be able to have a session with him or her for at least another month. As we all know, mental health issues do not wait. We urge members not to introduce more cutbacks in the education sector. We recognise the difficulty when the country is in a period of economic uncertainty. However, it makes economic sense to deal with mental health problems sooner in life. If a problem is caught sooner, the person concerned will not have to endure prolonged hospital stays. This will decrease the strain on the HSE. We also need a highly educated, well developed workforce to have a high-skills economy. We reaped the benefits of education in the 1960s.

We wish to see standards developed and enforced. There is no actual curriculum for guidance counsellors. It is dependent on the teacher's own initiative, which leaves some students out in the cold. As Mr. Cawley stated, spontaneous school evaluations are needed, as with two weeks' notice they are not proper evaluations.

Mr. Jake Walsh

Young people should be involved in the development of the guidance curriculum in their own schools. As Mr. Cawley said, students are supposed to be involved in the development of their school guidance plan, but in our research we could not find one school in which this was taking place. While it provided for on paper, it is not happening. This is an absolute disgrace. As a follow-on, students should have a committee to help their guidance counsellors make sure student services are met when it comes to guidance counselling.

We have a concern about dual roles among guidance counsellors. We realise most guidance counsellors become counsellors having been teachers for many years and accept that many schools do not have enough students to warrant a full-time guidance counsellor. In a perfect world we would want guidance counsellors to be counsellors, not to teach at the same time. Even if it were a necessity that guidance counsellors should also be teachers, the hours allocated for guidance counselling should be used for guidance counselling and this should be enforced. One thing we found was that many schools were using their guidance counsellors to teach extra classes. This is not acceptable. Students are missing out on guidance counselling at very difficult periods of their lives, whether it is in entering first year or leaving school and entering the workforce or pursuing further education. Students do not know what they are getting into.

The funding and allocation of hours for guidance counselling should be changed. We should revert to the old system of one full-time guidance counsellor to 250 students. As far as I am aware, this is the policy of Fine Gael and the Labour Party. As Ms Golden stated, all teachers should receive guidance training. A student will have a better relationship with one teacher than another and will feel more comfortable talking to this teacher than a guidance counsellor he or she has never met in five years of school. In addition, the age gap is a factor. Some teachers may only be six or seven years older than the leaving certificate students; therefore, they will feel more comfortable talking to someone of a similar age.

As stated, there should be mandatory visits to guidance counsellors for all students at different stages of their educational lives. However, many associate guidance counsellors only with career guidance, which is not acceptable. First year students should go to guidance counsellors for personal guidance. Going into first year is very stressful. A student has spent most of his or her life in primary school and is entering a new situation in which he or she does not know how things work. Students need guidance at this time. Again, at the end of a student's secondary school life, when he or she is in fifth and sixth year, it should not solely be a question of career guidance; personal guidance should also play a part. The student is going through some stressful situations and trying to fill in his or her CAO form on top of making the decision on what he or she wants to do.

We plan on making available a leaflet for students to inform them of the range of services to which they are entitled. As Mr. Cawley said, students do not know to what they are entitled or what they should be getting from their guidance counsellors. We also intend to put the information we obtained on the Dáil na nÓg website, where students who are interested will be able to find out what they are entitled to and what they should be getting from their guidance counsellors. We are having a round table meeting next Friday with relevant individuals such as the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Barry Andrews, and representatives of the Institute of Guidance Counsellors to tell them our concerns. We hope that with our help they will be able to do something in the near future. The Minister of State met us last year, listened to us and agreed with us. He has promised us his support in everything we do. As I said, he will be at the round table meeting next Friday.

In summary, it is clear that students need more access to and more information on guidance counselling. Guidance counselling is not simply career guidance but also promotes positive mental health. There is a need for an increased role for young people because they do not have a say.

I thank members for their time and ask them to put any questions they may have.

Chairman

I thank the representatives for their presentation. Members will have questions but, as we are more interested in hearing the answers to those questions, we will give each member two minutes.

Deputy Ulick Burke

I welcome the representatives of Dáil na nÓg and thank them for their excellent presentation which was very informative. Many of the suggestions involve fundamental changes to the organisation of schools. While the main thrust of the presentation was related to career guidance, or rather guidance in general, there are one or two other points I would like to raise. The survey was carried out in just one school, but they found out from other schools that the pattern was replicated in many others. The highlight of the research was the fact that most students had minimal access to guidance. Was there any indication that most of the guidance time was given to the high-fliers within the school community, while the less able students received little or no time?

The representatives suggest all teachers should receive training in guidance and communication, but I thought this was contradicted in the suggestion that the individual guidance counsellor should have sole responsibility in that area and no teaching responsibilities. In many schools the guidance counsellor is also a class teacher or subject teacher in certain areas, which lessens the impact of the guidance programme. I do not know what the difficulty is.

We have a system of whole-school evaluation, which in a way is progress, but the idea of on-the-spot, unannounced inspections was mentioned. That would be difficult because if a student were in consultation with the guidance counsellor under any of the headings listed, careers, social or otherwise, it might be perceived that the confidence or rapport built up between the student and the guidance counsellor would be interrupted by inspection in that area.

One of the group might comment on a final point. They made a suggestion that there should be mandatory visits to the Gaeltacht and mandatory foreign travel in the year prior to examinations. How realistic is that for all students?

Chairman

We shall take some other questions.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

In the interests of being brief and to the point, I have four questions.

Are school student councils common in most schools with which the delegates are familiar? I mean student representative councils with class representatives. What are the principal mental or emotional problems that manifest themselves within schools? Is there an issue around bullying, particularly homophobic bullying? Do the delegates believe there is a need for a secondary schools student union similar to the Union of Students in Ireland, USI?

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I welcome the group. I welcome Ms Mullen, in particular, who is one of my past pupils. From the way she performed today I see my seat could be in danger. I commend the group on the work it has done and on its presentations.

I do not necessarily agree that all teachers should have training in guidance counselling. I do not believe all teachers might be comfortable with that. I speak as a teacher who had responsibility for timetabling and I know how difficult it was to get teachers to deliver social, personal and health education, SPHE. Some teachers did not feel comfortable talking about or dealing with personal or sensitive issues. On that point, I might see a difficulty.

If a student presents to a guidance counsellor with a mental health issue or a personal problem this must be seen as a priority. No teacher I ever worked with would say to a student to come back and see him or her in a month. I believe a teacher would find five or ten minutes which might be all that the problem would require in order to put the person's mind at ease. With regard to guidance, and the representatives made this point, different schools do different things. They do them very well. Some schools offer individual appointments for every student coming into first year. The guidance counsellor builds a relationship with the student and students build a relationship with their class tutor and with their year head. There are structures in place but perhaps every school is not consistent in the way it delivers the service. I would like to see consistency across schools.

We must have a holistic approach with regard to mental health. The guidance counsellor is not the only person responsible for provision of positive mental health. It must be promoted at all stages throughout the school and a culture must be involved. I know schools have events such as anti-bullying weeks and healthy eating weeks and these are very important in helping to promote mental health. I do not believe that responsibility is necessarily the remit of any individual teacher.

I commend the group on the idea of providing a leaflet. That is a very good initiative. A leaflet for young people, prepared by young people, is a much more effective information tool than one prepared by adults for young people.

With regard to involving young people in the development of standards, all schools should have a student council and there is a considerable role for such a council. In many schools student councils are consulted in respect of anti-bullying policy or homework policy and are consulted when the school evaluation is taking place. There is a role for student councils and it is important the councils take full advantage of that role.

The most startling statistic the delegates gave us was that 38% of students are unaware of whom they would go to if they had a personal problem. I find that a very sad statistic. Teaching and teachers have certainly changed since I went to school, which is not that long ago. Teachers are more comfortable dealing with people on a one on one basis. If somebody had a personal problem and were to approach a teacher with whom he or she got on well, whether the sports teacher, the religion teacher or whomsoever, I am sure that teacher would be more than willing to listen and help the student with the problem.

My final point concerns the 11% of sixth year students who have never met a guidance counsellor. Sometimes when appointments are scheduled people think they will not bother going. There is also a difficulty in practices across the board. As the delegates noted, sometimes students see a meeting with the guidance counsellor purely in terms of a CAO or a UCAS application form. They may not necessarily see that other benefits may come from meeting the guidance counsellor on an individual basis where personal issues can be highlighted. There is a role in ensuring that such information is put before the students.

Chairman

Do the delegates wish to respond to those questions or to wait for further questions?

Mr. Jake Walsh

We will wait for more questions.

Chairman

In that case, I invite Deputy Frank Feighan to contribute.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the delegates and I thank them for a very informative submission. They are welcome to the world of politics.

My first question relates to interaction with guidance counsellors. We have heard about one school. It might be time to elaborate on the different schools represented by the delegates and see the issue as an around the country matter. What was the size of the school the delegates visited? Did they meet with a guidance counsellor? Were they satisfied with the interaction and the information they received? That would be informative to us.

Second, do the delegates believe that students have a say in the running of the school? Membership of boards of management comes from all parts of society. I am not sure whether it might be legal but should students nominate somebody who would sit on a board or liaise with it?

Chairman

That is short and sweet and very much to the point. I call on Deputy O'Mahony.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I thank the delegates for the presentation. The basic message I take from it is that the delegates want a more holistic approach to their education and their schools. They want full-time guidance counsellors but they also want all teachers to be trained in counselling. Are any of the delegates in schools where there is a school chaplain rather than a guidance counsellor? Do they see a role for such a person? Might that be a positive factor in overcoming some of the difficulties they see?

Extra-curricular activities were mentioned. I get the message that the delegates do not want merely the courses and the syllabus to be given out but that they wish there to be a holistic approach. Are there extra-curricular activities in their schools whereby they might get to know a teacher or a trainer? Do students in schools find that a help in overcoming some of the difficulties?

They mentioned school evaluation and the need for on the spot evaluation. Are they suggesting that schools, because they get notice of such evaluation, give a false picture to the inspectors who come? As a teacher down the years, I would find it worrying if that were to be the case. I do not find it to be the case on the ground.

Deputy Beverley Flynn

I apologise for my late arrival. I was speaking in the debate on the economy in the Dáil. I welcome the delegation and Ms Mullen, who is from my constituency. I read what she had to say. It is important given the current economic climate that we focus on the issue of guidance counsellors, not just from a career point of view, but also in terms of the role they play in dealing with other pressures under which young people come, especially in my constituency. Yesterday, a group from Dáil na nÓg was before the Joint Committee on Health and Children dealing with issues of mental health. In the past year in County Mayo we have seen the pressures to which people are subject throughout the education system, including the issue of suicide among young people. It seems from the presentation made and the statistics provided, that not much has changed in the past 20 years for guidance counsellors in schools. When I was a student, more than 20 years ago, one solution suited almost every pupil, no matter what one's academic ability. The advice given from a career point of view recommended a sound, pensionable job, rather than trying to develop entrepreneurial skills among students. There was no guidance provided as far as dealing with other pressures to which students might be subject. The statistics put forward today suggest that the situation is the same and that not much has changed. The committee can bring the delegation's concerns to the attention of the Minister to try to make some progress. We would like to see the delegation before the committee again when there is progress in this area. I commend the delegation on its excellent work across the two areas, namely, education and mental health.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I congratulate the group on its efforts and I am very impressed with the presentation, teamwork, preparation and gender balance. I have some concern that people from Dublin may be excluded, but I hope that is not really the case.

There have been some comments made on the survey. The delegation should consider the survey as an initial step. The fact that the survey refers only to one school limits it somewhat. The delegation should take the view that this is the beginning and that it will survey other schools and continue to build on the work already done, because the more schools involved in the sample, the more weight the survey carries. I encourage the delegation to proceed in that way. Will the delegation indicate the size of the school involved? It would be interesting to know as some statistics have been provided regarding the times allocated to students in different sized schools. Some good arguments were made referring to the fact that all teachers having guidance training. However, Deputy Conlon made the argument from the teachers' point of view, so it is necessary to have some balance. Some excellent arguments were put.

I refer to the obligatory visit to a counsellor and there is much merit in this suggestion. I am aware of one student with concerns about approaching a counsellor because of the perceived stigma. Every other student is aware that someone is going to a counsellor if all students do not go. A good argument can be made for the obligatory visit proposal. An argument may also be made for flexibility for teachers, whereby they might provide some counselling at home, which might remove some of the stigma attached.

I refer to the matter raised concerning the need for a greater emphasis on conversation in language subjects and the need for mandatory Gaeltacht and foreign trips. Funding for such an exercise would be very difficult. If funding was absent for such trips, is there a case for having no such trips, given that the matter might become divisive if some people could not afford to go? I am interested in hearing the thoughts of the delegation on that point.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

I echo the words of the other Deputies and Senators. I welcome the delegation and it provides a great opportunity for the committee to listen to Dáil na nÓg, the voice of young people in the education sector. I was heartened by some of the suggestions put. The area of guidance counselling is vital for the future of young people. While the decisions and advice available may not be so important at the time, it becomes important later on. Not long ago, when I was completing my leaving certificate I received advice from a guidance counsellor. The advice proved very beneficial, however I know of certain schools in which the advice may not be up to scratch. This is partly because guidance counsellors are under pressure and do not have sufficient time. The delegation has identified that as an issue today. In addition, counsellors have scheduled classes to oversee also. That is a management issue with which schools must deal. As Deputy Flynn remarked, that is something we must relay to the Minister for Education and Science and I am certain the committee will do so.

The delegation raised the matter of the importance of oral communication in developing language studies. The survey identified that 95% of participants agreed with the need for this. Let us consider the Irish language. I come from a Gaeltacht area and I believe the Irish language is at a crossroads. I say this because the people must decide whether they wish to speak the language. The education system must support this. The current system may place too much emphasis on the written language and the associated grammar. Many students with whom I speak find this a very difficult way to learn, especially those from a non-Gaeltacht area.

Students who attend Irish summer colleges benefit greatly. I say this as someone who has taught in such a college. The suggestion of the delegation to make visits mandatory for students from non-Gaeltacht areas is very appealing. Each year, some 25,000 students from outside the Gaeltacht visit to learn the language. It is a source of revenue to the bean an tí and Irish colleges and it forms a great part of the economy in Gaeltacht areas. However, it is also an educational opportunity for those who wish to learn the language. It is our oldest language and I support the idea. I do not know how it could be funded or whether there is a role for the Irish colleges in sponsoring courses, or whether students should pay a certain amount themselves. This could raise the question of affordability for families and the role of the Department. Perhaps the delegation could examine this matter and produce suggestions. If the survey were extended to other schools how would the students and families involved perceive the need for funding? Perhaps I am parochial, but I would be very pleased to welcome the delegation to County Donegal to learn Irish and to stay with the bean an tí.

I thank the delegation for its suggestions and I commend the work of Dáil na nÓg. The Donegal Youth Council was the first youth council in the country established in 2001 or 2002 with 35 members. This was a very beneficial step, with elections held every year. It was generally confined to fourth year students, but it is working very effectively. They are engaging with the council and there is a successful feedback process. I hope the delegation will come before the committee again with, as Senator Ryan remarked, firmed up options or solutions and a wider spread in terms of the survey undertaken.

Chairman

To follow up on the remarks of Senator Ó Domhnaill regarding mandatory visits to gaelscoileanna, is the delegation's suggestion limited to summer time, rather than during school time? An argument could be made that the time cannot be afforded and that it is a separate valuable immersion. If students are to be immersed during the school year it may affect other subjects. I presume the suggestion relates to the holiday period.

For several years my school, Coláiste Phádraig in Lucan, ran a coláiste samhradh in which there was three weeks of Irish on the school campus. Classes were held in the morning, cluithe peil were held in the afternoon and a ceilí and other social interaction were held in the evening. I attended for three years and I learned a good deal of Irish. There was also a beneficial social element. Is the delegation averse to such an option in terms of the cost? Not everyone can afford to or is in a position to go to the Gaeltacht for two or three weeks during the summer. There is a capacity issue also. If every student in the country had to go, would the Gaeltacht areas have the capacity to meet that need, or would they quality be diminished?

The gaelscoileanna sector say it is looking to have immersion education where children in junior infants learn solely through Irish. If there were a number of pupils at one time, many of whom have not gone to Gaelscoileanna, there would be so many English speaking people attending it would be very difficult to police and may be diluted. Perhaps those who are really interested in going to the Gaeltacht can go but there should be alternatives. It is a devil's advocate type of question.

The survey cannot cover every school and issue but as Chairman of this committee I am interested to know the views of the delegation on the low take up of science subjects, particularly subjects such as physics. In the future jobs will come from people who have training in science subjects.

Personal development relates to every subject but down the line, our economic competitiveness will be in high added value information technology and jobs created by new forms of renewable energy and we need the best and brightest engineers, and people in various other disciplines, in the country. What is the delegation's view on science subjects? Why does it think, given its experience, science is not taken up as much and how could it be made more interesting? It is not related to the report, but as it is here it would be well worth getting input on that matter.

Deputy Burke mentioned the issue of the apparent contradiction between having specific guidance councillors and having training for everyone. Can the delegation clarify that point? Is it looking for one specific guidance councillor? If it cannot have that person, could someone else with relevant training be a mentor throughout the years and, as well as being a career councillor, be a personal development councillor?

In that context, what is the delegation's view on the role of class masters and teacher year heads in schools? Does it think they should be the ones who could be specific throughout school life? Could they be people one could build a relationship and rapport with? Would they be better than anonymous councillors who people can only see for a short time? It might be a stopgap for the next couple of years before longer-term action is taken. The Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Barry Andrews, has indicated he has taken the views of the delegation on board and is trying to look at solutions.

I would like the delegation to be as blunt as possible regarding inspections. Is it its experience that teachers in schools try to shape up when they know an inspector is coming? Is it a charade? As soon as it ends, do schools go back to being a little bit slack? Inspectors would know about the quality of a teacher even if the teacher is bluffing. In 2009, what is the view of the delegation? Is there some slacking? Does it think unions would go for on-the-spot investigations?

There are many questions which I hope the delegation will be able to answer in turn.

Mr. Jake Walsh

May we confer?

Chairman

Yes.

Sitting suspended at 12.34 p.m. and resumed at 12.35 p.m.

Chairman

The delegation does not meet as regularly as it would like. When ministerial Departments appear here they have already conferred beforehand and know the sort of questions they will get from politicians. It took the delegation approximately two minutes to allocate speakers, which is very good.

I presume Mr. Walsh will start. There may be some follow up questions. Now is the time to be as blunt as possible because the delegation will probably not get this chance again, so it should speak freely and openly.

Mr. Jake Walsh

I will answer Deputy Burke first, who asked who gets access to guidance councillors. Generally it would be the high fliers, who are usually more intelligent and know to what they are entitled. It is specified for fifth and sixth year students. Junior students are neglected by the service and are not given the opportunity to visit a guidance councillor.

I will clarify the role of a teacher getting guidance training. We did not say that all teachers would be qualified guidance councillor, but that as part of teacher training in a H. Dip. they would be given training on how to deal with a student who comes to them with personal problems and direct them to the appropriate service. It was mentioned that teachers would not be comfortable with addressing those sorts of problems, but they could at least be able to direct students on where they could go for help.

Regarding whole school inspection, a spontaneous whole school inspection is the only way to get a real look into how a school is run. It is true that schools put on a false face. Even if the inspector cannot tell what a teacher is like, we have found that schools lie about services. For example, schools will say they have a particular number of PE teachers when in reality they do not, or that teachers have all sorts of training when they do not. That is the way it goes.

On the issue of trips to the Gaeltacht——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

On a point of intervention, does the delegation think there is a role for a school council to get the whole school evaluation and challenge it if it feels there have been lies told by teachers?

Mr. Jake Walsh

That would be a perfect role for student councils. However, the current situation in most schools in Ireland is that student councils have only a fund-raising role and are not given an opportunity to be fully involved in the running of the school. They are left to make some money for schools. That is what we found in many cases.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

Regarding the student council, when the whole school evaluation is being conducted by the Department, the student council is afforded the opportunity to have a meeting with the inspectors from the Department. There is an opportunity for students to be as blunt as the delegation is being here, and if there are things it is concerned about it has the opportunity to make its points known to the Department.

Chairman

Does every student council know that? Does every school have a student council?

Deputy Margaret Conlon

Every school is supposed to have a student council.

Ms Deirdre Mullen

One cannot be honest. If one is on a student council one cannot be honest and say all the bad things about the school when one knows one will have to see the teachers again. They will treat one differently.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

One can be general. Without naming people, one can make general points.

Deputy John O’Mahony

The delegation is painting a picture. My job is not to defend teachers. I was one for 30 years.

Regarding falsification, does it happen because the Department does not allocate funding? Teachers and school managers are working within the funding available to provide school councillors. Schools are often implementing the resources available. I find it hard to believe that lies are being told on the whole school evaluations but that is a personal view based on having worked through the system. I find it hard to accept that statement.

Mr. Jake Walsh

I understand Deputy O'Mahony's point but schools put down on paper more than they can do and they look better. They are spruced up for the inspectors during whole school evaluations.

Chairman

Does Mr. Walsh think that whole school evaluations create a snobbery and should not be public?

Mr. Jake Walsh

That is exactly the case because the school does not give inspectors an opportunity to see how the school is being run. For the week or two that the inspectors are there it is a different school.

Could Deputy Quinn please repeat his question about student councils?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

How effective does Mr. Walsh think they are?

Mr. Jake Walsh

In some schools they are very effective and are involved in the running of the school but most only exist in principle and meet only now and then to organise a social event for students but do not help in running the school.

Mr. Gavin Cawley

In my school the council went to the principal because it wanted changes in the school but after negotiations the council was abandoned because the principal would not let it carry out the suggestions. The council had no power and does not operate now.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Is there a need for a second level Unions of Students in Ireland, USI, to reinforce their position?

Mr. Gavin Cawley

There had been one that has been reinstated.

Mr. Jake Walsh

There is the USS and there is a place for it. We hope it will be able to make student councils more effective throughout the country and encourage principals and teachers to listen to the student councils and not simply have them for show.

Ms Mary Golden

I wish to address Deputy Conlon and build on Mr. Walsh's point about having all teachers trained in some aspect of counselling. This is not to suggest that every teacher would give one-on-one sessions but for example, this year a young person in the community died and when students returned to school the teachers did not know how to deal with them. Some teachers started to talk about it and upset some girls whereas others ignored it and people were upset in class. It is difficult for a teacher to know what to do in such situations. They need a general guideline.

Mental health problems cannot be solved in five or ten minutes.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I was speaking about an initial meeting. Ms Golden mentioned a counsellor not being available for a month. That is not satisfactory.

Ms Mary Golden

I completely agree but it would be very hard for someone with a mental health problem to walk up to a teacher and say so. That might work for some students but many would not have the confidence to do that. My guidance counsellor is very good because she tries hard but the resources are not available. She told me that if a student came to her and asked to speak to her in private she would have to wait a month even if she worked hours on her timetable.

Mr. Jake Walsh

There were in the region of 750 students in the survey school. According to the table, the last school should have been getting 30 hours of guidance counselling a week but when we spoke to the students there was only one guidance counsellor available. As far as I am aware, teachers are timetabled for 22 hours so they are not being given the appropriate hours.

Ms Deirdre Mullen

Our school has a chaplain but she talks about what happens in other countries and explains other cultures, so none of us would go to her with a personal problem. We would go to the guidance counsellor. The year head scheme works well in my year because we all get on with her but some years do not get on with the teacher who is their year head and will not discuss anything personal with her.

Some guidance counsellors are good but one would not want to talk to others. I know my guidance counsellor personally because she taught me gymnastics outside school. I would not want to go to her with a personal problem because I coach gymnastics with her husband.

Mr. Jake Walsh

In most schools, year heads are the first stop for discipline issues. If one is getting into trouble one will not talk to the person who will be suspending one a week later.

The Chairman asked about science subjects. Although this is not our remit I will give my opinion. Some students are not interested in science. I am not sure if that is because of how it is being taught, or the syllabus. I enjoy physics but will not take it up. It is not my main interest. That is true of many students around the country.

Chairman

Are they aware of the various interesting job opportunities that come from doing an uninteresting science subject? Does it need to be made more interesting?

Mr. Jake Walsh

I accept that point. It could be more interesting and there might be a great deal of money in it but our guidance counsellors tell us to go with what we like.

Chairman

I agree with that advice.

Mr. Jake Walsh

One could make millions in a job but might not be happy.

Ms Mary Golden

Many people I know do not do physics and chemistry because of the points system. They think it is harder to get high points in those subjects than in business. This affects the choice of many students.

Chairman

Does Ms Golden think more points should be given for such subjects?

Ms Mary Golden

Yes. In the University of Limerick people get extra points for doing honours mathematics, so maybe a system could be considered whereby higher points are given for subjects that are more demanding.

Chairman

I have a theory which I would like the witnesses to prove or disprove, or simply give their opinion on. Some people take up jobs during transition year and keep these up when they go into senior cycle and therefore pick easier subjects.

Ms Mary Golden

I did transition year in my old school. I have seen people do four or five days work during the leaving cert course and it does have a significant effect on their work skills and study levels. Taking up a job in transition year is more likely to affect students' mentality than their subject choices. The other activities in which one engages during transition year have more effect than jobs on career or subject choices. I chose my subjects out of general interest in transition year.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What about my question about bullying and homophobia?

Mr. Jake Walsh

That is definitely an issue. Bullying is prevalent in most schools. Although the Government and schools do a lot to try to prevent this they cannot do everything.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What can the witnesses or a student council do?

Mr. Jake Walsh

I am not on my student council and as far as I am aware student councils cannot do much because it is their peers they must try to convince to stop bullying. It would not be the place of the student council to do anything about the problem, that is the school management's role.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

What about peer mentoring by older students in the school? For the most part bullying happens in the junior years although it does happen at senior cycle. What would the witnesses think of having senior students looking after young ones when they come in? How do the representatives see that working?

Deputy Ulick Burke

I have a question related to that issue. How are the representatives viewed in their own schools? Are they seen as leaders within their school community? As Deputy Quinn mentioned, if their fellow students believed they were being intimidated, bullied or whatever, would they come to the representatives or would they go to the student council members? I do not know whether some of them duplicate their positions within their schools. Also, what is the representatives' opinion on school league tables at second level?

Ms Mary Golden

It is ironic the Deputy mentioned the word "leader" because I am a leader in my own school. To answer Deputy Conlon's question, peer mentoring is a fantastic way to proceed. In my school five leaving certificate students are assigned to every first year class. In my case we go into the class to talk to them and if they have a problem they will come to us rather than their teacher or someone else. That is a fantastic system. I agree with a peer mentoring system. It is a fantastic system. Guidelines should be put in place and it should be encouraged in other schools.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Did Ms Golden intend answering the question on the league tables?

Ms Mary Golden

The league tables are quite a sensitive issue. As the Chairman said earlier, a form of snobbery could be created but on the other hand one could say it is the student's right to know the type of school they are about to enter. I know many intelligent people who have gone into schools where the teachers may not be as focused or there may not be a good support system, and those students would not do as well as expected. I would personally be in favour of a league table for schools.

Mr. Jake Walsh

Are there any other issues members would like us to address?

Deputy John O’Mahony

If a student is involved in extra curricular activities such as sport, debates or whatever, would they have a natural empathy with that teacher? If students have personal problems would they approach those teachers?

Ms Deirdre Mullen

Students who do extra-curricular activities with teachers tend to get on better with those teachers because they know them outside the school and are not as intimidating to approach. That does help. I know I could talk to the person I do football with if I had a problem. It really only affects students involved in sport because debating is done more in school.

Deputy John O’Mahony

I only mentioned debating as a general point.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What role do the representatives or a students union have if they have an experience of a teacher who is performing badly in terms of not doing his or her job?

Mr. Jake Walsh

Is the Deputy asking what we could do about a teacher?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Yes. It is not just a problem for the representatives to solve but do they believe that students who are the victims of a non-performing teacher have a role to play in a structured or informal way to try to resolve the problem? The teacher may be going through their own personal difficulties but their personal difficulties are affecting the representatives' chances, particularly if they are doing the senior cycle in fifth and sixth year. Do they have a view on that?

Ms Deirdre Mullen

Students cannot do much about that because we cannot strike someone off and if one is a public servant, it is very difficult to get fired.

Ms Mary Golden

On that point, it comes back to the issue of inspections. Aside from whole school evaluations, my school underwent an Irish examination last year and it was hilarious to watch. The modh coinníollach, seanfhocail and so on were going up on the walls. It was completely false in terms of identifying the level of Irish teaching in the school. In my class our teacher played a tape for us and told us who would answer which questions. That was the case with all the Irish teachers in the school. If we were to say to the inspector that this is not what happens, we would not have been able to do this quiz. We did not have enough time with the inspector. The inspector came in for a class and was gone again. There was no opportunity to do that unless one put up one's hand in front of the teacher one would be spending the next two years with and say that is not up to scratch. It comes back to having spontaneous school inspections.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

Would any of the representatives, and I do not expect Ms Mullen to answer this question, be comfortable going to the principal or the deputy principal if they had a problem? Would they be happy to sit down and talk to that person? I would not like to think they would go through their entire school life without being able to sit down with one person in the school to discuss a difficulty.

Mr. Jake Walsh

To answer Deputy Quinn's question, students should have a say in reporting badly performing teachers because we are the ones who will end up with the bad points in our leaving certificate. There is no facility to report poor teachers.

To answer Deputy Conlon, I would feel very comfortable doing that. I am aware of many students in my area who would like to do that because many teachers do not know the course or they know it and they just cannot teach it. I would feel very comfortable if I felt it was necessary.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I am glad to hear that.

Chairman

I was reminded by the clerk that Deputy Quinn asked a question about dealing with emotional or mental health problems. What are the major issues that if they were not addressed could get more serious?

Ms Mary Golden

The problems range from everyday ones such as stress about the leaving certificate to more serious illnesses such as depression or manic depression. A friend of mine had a mental illness undiagnosed until after he left school. He had to go to the doctor and discuss the problem. Stressful issues arise every day but the more serious ones we are trying to pinpoint would be depression and other mental illnesses.

Deputy Ulick Burke

In the survey the representatives said they like 60% of the leaving certificate course to be done by way of continual assessment. Do they believe it is within the capacity of the teachers to be fair-minded in apportioning results? Do they envisage a form of consistency not only within the school but also at national level if there is such a variation and response or an attitudinal problem on the part of the teacher or students towards that concept?

Ms Mary Golden

We started off with continual assessment as our main goal. However, we communicated with a woman from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and her personal experience was that continual assessment is not the right approach in Ireland. She had done research in other countries and it was found to be just as stressful. There was also the problem that the student's own teachers would be doing the evaluations and whether that would be fair. That is when we decided to abandon the issue. We are all of the view that continual assessment is not the way for this country to proceed.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Particularly if students are frightened of their teachers or they believe their teachers would victimise them.

Ms Mary Golden

Very true.

Ms Deirdre Mullen

On the issues internally examined, they did not want their own teachers to mark the papers. They wanted them to be sent to teachers in other schools to be marked. That would prevent a situation arising whereby if the teacher liked the student, they would get a good mark but if they did not, they would fail them.

Mr. Jake Walsh

Another problem that arose was the cost of sending them off. It would not be viable. The current leaving certificate is the only option until a new solution is found.

Chairman

Are the representatives happy enough with the new leaving certificate proposals which will mean that the first few examinations will not be held so closely together?

Mr. Jake Walsh

Definitely. I am doing my leaving certificate this year and with English paper one and paper two being done on different days, I will have some chance to relax the night before. On paper one alone one must write ten, 11 or 12 A4 pages and another ten or 12 the following day, followed by a mathematics and Irish paper. Students are wrecked by the time the weekend comes.

Chairman

We have reached the end of this discourse. I thank the members of the delegation who have come from most corners of the country. Is Ms Brennan from County Laois? We are missing people from Leinster, although there are the Dubs. Perhaps we will see some of our guests in the Houses in years to come. What they have done is very valuable and has already been forwarded to the Minister of State. It will then be forwarded to the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. I hope members found the meeting equally interesting. I am glad our guests spoke their minds. Some agree with them and some will disagree but we have certainly learned from each other. I hope it will not be another report that will be stashed away somewhere. I propose that we forward the content of this discussion and the reports from Comhairle na nÓg and Dáil na nÓg to the Minister for analysis and response. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.30 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 12 February 2009.