I welcome Ms Sandra Gowran of the Gay and Lesbian Equality Network and Dr. Carol-Anne O'Brien of the BeLonG To youth service. The witnesses were present for the earlier part of the meeting so I do not need to remind them or members of the situation regarding privilege. They will know what they can and cannot say.
LGBT Students: Discussion with GLEN and BeLonG To.
Ms Sandra Gowran
I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the opportunity to meet with them on the issue of the safety of and support for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students. I will refer to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people as members of the LGBT group and will give a synopsis of the presentation already circulated to members. After I have made the presentation, Dr. O'Brien and I will respond to questions.
Why are we here today? All of us agree there has been considerable progress in Ireland in recent years. Young LGBT people are much more self-assured and confident than ever before. Every classroom and school in Ireland has LGBT students. However, we know from listening to these young people that they are not safe in schools because of the pervasiveness of homophobic bullying. They do not get support from their schools as LGBT people, nor do schools seriously tackle homophobic bullying.
The document entitled Supporting LGBT Lives, of which members will have received a copy, contains the most recent and extensive research carried out on LGBT people in Ireland. It surveyed over 1,100 people. Among the key findings are the fact that half of those surveyed have been harassed while at school, one quarter have been physically threatened by peers and one third have heard their teachers or other staff members make homophobic comments. The vast majority of the people who participated in the survey were not "out" or open about their sexual orientation or gender identity while at school. For many, this was because it was easier to hide their identity to avoid being the subject of attack. One in five admitted to missing school because they felt threatened or were afraid of getting hurt in school. Some left school early because of the treatment they received. It is of particular concern that those who were harassed or victimised were more likely to self-harm. In some cases, self-harm began around the time of the junior certificate and some even attempted suicide.
It is notable that a cessation of self-harm was linked to a positive turnabout in these people's lives, which many said happened when they left school. These young people are not safe in schools. They cannot be open about this aspect of their identity while they are in school and they do not get the necessary support from school management. We know from research that sexual orientation and gender identity present challenges for schools. Many members of the committee are teachers and will be very familiar with those challenges. From my own experience of teaching I know that the staff room, let alone the classroom, can be a difficult area in which to raise these issues.
Some of the challenges require an engagement with parents to develop approaches to tackle homophobic bullying and to build the capacity and understanding within schools to support LGBT students. There is a common perception that religious ethos somehow prevents schools from proactively dealing with homophobic bullying. However, challenges are not insurmountable barriers but merely require a willingness to devise appropriate solutions. We are aware of a small number of schools that have developed solutions and are working effectively to create safe and supportive environments in which young men and women can be open about their sexual orientation or their gender identity and so get on with the real business of what school is about, namely, their education.
The characteristics of these schools are not very surprising. Such schools recognised that they had real issues around homophobic bullying and that they had a duty of care to all their students. They recognised that proactively addressing these issues would promote a culture of respect within the school from which all would benefit. In these schools the principal and management provided strong and positive support to their staff. While whole-staff approaches work best, these schools have had positive results from just a small team consisting of the guidance counsellor, the school chaplain and the SPHE teacher, who all collaborated to address the issues. These are schools in which LGBT identity is affirmed and unambiguous images and messages are provided.
The message in these schools is twofold. First, the school will not tolerate homophobic bullying of any kind. Second, if students want help, the school is there as a resource to give help, support and information. The schools are ordinary, some with a denominational and non-denominational ethos, single sex and co-educational, and located in rural and urban areas. They are few in number but represent what can be done where there is a willingness to do so. Currently there are opportunities for progress to be made. The BeLonG To and Equality Authority "Stop Homophobic Bullying" campaign significantly raises the consciousness of homophobic bullying in the educational community. Recently the ASTI, TUI and GLEN launched a resource to help teachers support and affirm young LGBT students and challenge homophobic behaviour that will be circulated to all teachers. This summer the Department of Education and Science and GLEN will publish guidance for school principals on how to address issues related to sexual orientation. This will go out to every second level school in the country with the imprimatur of all of the education partners, including the bodies representing principals, management, the parents' council and the second level teachers' unions.
BeLonG To has new national advocacy and training initiatives that have the firm support of the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs and its national development network offers key supports that schools should be encouraged to use. These initiatives have created a growing national infrastructure that schools should be encouraged to use in providing support to LGBT students.
Where do we go from here? We recognise that there are a number of critical areas where further progress and leadership is needed, primarily from the Department of Education and Science. For example, the Department could re-establish its interdepartmental working group on sexual orientation. Such a group would explore solutions to the issues, including updating the anti-bullying guidelines and extending whole-school evaluations to include LGBT students. The document Supporting LGBT Lives has a whole series of recommendations for the education sector that need to be implemented. The Department could support BeLonG To in rolling out nationally its school based initiatives which are currently being piloted. GLEN and BeLonG To welcome the interest in this issue and we think the committee has a very strong and important role to play in promoting the safety and affirmation of LGBT people in schools. We look forward to the discussion with members and hearing their ideas.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
I would like to add to Ms Gowran's contribution. We welcome the opportunity to appear before the joint committee. We are interested in the comments and ideas of members and we would be very happy to respond to their questions.
Thank you, Dr. O'Brien and Ms Gowran.
I thank the delegates for coming before the joint committee. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party, l have already met both of them and I found the discussion and engagement on this issue very useful. We often make the mistake of assuming the problem of bullying, particularly homophobic bullying, starts just before the junior certificate examination. I believe children's negative experience of terms such as "gay", "queer", "bent" or call it what you will, happens at a much younger age. Increasingly one hears of children in primary schools being called "gay" at a very young age to such an extent that seven, eight and nine year old children are asking the question,"What is gay?" That leads me to the conclusion that we need to address this issue at a much younger age and put some description on all of these terms suitable for a much younger age.
One of the great successes of Irish education in the past ten years is that we have established a child-centred approach at primary level. There is often more love in our primary schools than there is at home for some children. The transition from primary to post-primary education that happens at 12 or 13 years is a very traumatic experience for many children. Often they come with terminology and baggage that is very negative in terms of their expectations. I think that young people have a negative view of sexuality by the time they are 13, 14 or 15 years old, the time the individual is becoming aware of his or her sexuality. I would be interested in the delegates view of that observation.
On the issue of bullying, the strategies, policies and whole-school evaluation may be in place until the cows come home and it will make no difference unless we encourage peers to take responsibility themselves. I believe passionately from the great qualities in education that the most important talent or quality we can teach our children is to take responsibility themselves, to address bullying themselves, to stand up to it and to take a strong position against anyone who is bullying, be it on a homophobic or any other basis. I am interested in ideas on how we can do that in our school communities so that teenagers get the message that they have to stand up for their mates and that it is not acceptable that people are bullied in such a way and in such a manner. The policy is grand, but it is just words on a page. We need to incentivise the good and supportive behaviour of peers because they are the most important group in the school community.
Have the delegates a view on how schools with a religious ethos compare with non-denominational schools in the manner in which they deal with this issue? I am aware of a comment on that issue, but I am not certain about the point that Ms Gowran was making. It is my experience that people are aware of this issue at post-primary level and are much more aware of it now than was the case five years ago.
The INTO has a gay and lesbian group in the union which supports gay and lesbian teachers in the primary sector. I am not aware if such a group exists at post-primary level. It seems that supporting LGBT teachers is as important as supporting pupils because it inculcates in the school system a respect for the expression of the spectrum of sexuality. That is an issue that we have not broached. Why is it the case that some gay and lesbian teachers are bullied and feel they are not allowed to fit in, not only in the staff room but in the management context? That is a crucial issue that we need to address.
Thank you, Chairman. Both witnesses are very welcome. I reiterate my support for the questions that were very well articulated by Deputy Hayes and with which I am fully in accord. In addition, I think it is necessary to put homophobic behaviour in the context of bullying in the totality of the experience and not just to isolate it, although we need to recognise that it has a unique dimension. There is a culture of bullying in some schools. There are children who have the misfortune to be very bright and the teacher will ask that child the question and the child constantly answers it correctly and becomes the nerdy figure and subsequently the object of bullying. We have to set this in the context of not just not tolerating a culture of bullying for whatever reason, but to include all forms of bullying. In a sense that makes it easier to say that no form of bullying will be tolerated.
I would be very interest to know about the relationship with boards of management if a parent of an LGBT child is unhappy with the experience the child is having in a post-primary school from first year onwards. Have the witnesses case studies, examples or helpline queries from parents to the organisation asking for help in dealing with a school where the board of management will not engage, where the school principal is frightened or a teacher is intimidated for whatever reason? How does the organisation go beyond the words on the page to intervene, or does it intervene as a support service for the LGBT movement for parents, youngsters, teachers and management who are experiencing this type of problem and somewhere within the stakeholder group somebody is dragging their feet or is refusing or reluctant to become involved?
It is great to see the document which has a lot of buy-in from all the organisations. I am sure that did not come quickly or easily but I would be very interested to know how well this is going to be embedded and applied.
I thank the delegates for their presentation. It is a serious issue when an assertion is made that children are not safe. How can parents and teachers spot children early that may be LGBT but who may not know they are? I am involved in a study of early school leaving at secondary level. One group we are examining is children in this category who speak about going black or becoming invisible. Many of them are 15 years of age and their identity has gradually developed from a much earlier age. What is known about spotting children early so we can intervene and help them?
What is the incidence of homophobic bullying in primary schools? I was shocked recently when the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs said there may be a case for teaching sexuality in schools. Such a programme was meant to be in place in 1996; I was involved then in developing relationships and sexuality education training. Is relationship and sexuality education, RSE, addressing the whole area of differences in sexuality?
Teacher training is a critical component in this area. Do the teacher education colleges address this area, in particular homophobic bullying? Are there good anti-bullying programmes already in place, both here and abroad?
I am not surprised there is a link between homophobic bullying and suicide and self-harm. Are there any statistics concerning such suicide motives? A child having to leave school early to deal with homophobic bullying is a complete indictment of the education system and causes real problems. Children who leave school early will not only do poorly themselves but will be a long-term cost to society. Is there any evidence of religious ethos having the effect of embedding homophobic bullying?
As Deputy Brian Hayes said, many young children use words without understanding what they mean, be it foul language or words such as "gay". If they get a laugh from it, it encourages them to keep using it inappropriately. In the primary school, there is a special relationship between the teacher and the pupil. Many children will tell teacher everything — and probably things they should not – and whatever teacher says is gospel. Children may feel more comfortable about telling a personal experience to a teacher rather than at home. Parents may not like to admit there is something different about their child. Parents like to think their children are perfect and may tend not to admit to differences which they may hide from themselves. From that point of view, it may be easier for a teacher to spot it and for it to be dealt with in school.
I agree with Deputy Quinn on bullying. Bullying at all levels cannot be tolerated. Schools with anti-bullying policies without a homophobic aspect need to add it to them. Schools may need to get assistance in this as for many of them it may be a new issue which they have not dealt with before.
The peer-mentoring programme, with older children looking after younger ones, is a beneficial programme in stamping out bullying. Children relate better to their peers. It can sometimes be better if their peers form a positive relationship and point out such bullying is not good rather than a headmaster talking about it. I am sure many schools have good practices in place. Examples of good practice should be given to those which do not have policies in place or need some assistance.
As a teacher who used to set timetables, I know for some teachers there is nothing worse than having to teach RSE. They may not want to teach it or may not be comfortable with it. It should be taught by teachers who are willing to teach it and comfortable in dealing with these important issues for young people. Added to that, one needs the strong commitment of the school principal and the school management.
Have the groups met the Minister for Education and Science and the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs? If not, have they sought a meeting?
I thank the delegates for their presentation. It stated LGBT young people are more self-assured and confident but it also painted a frightening picture of homophobic bullying, non-attendance and lack of support of the schools system. How can these two opposites be reconciled?
As a former teacher and having been involved in sport, I never noticed homophobic bullying emerge as an issue in sporting or extra-curricular activities. Perhaps LGBT young people do not get involved in sporting or extra-curricular activities. Is there any evidence to suggest these pupils are shying away from such involvement?
I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation. Could aspects of the school curriculum be amended to make it much more familiar with LGBT and so make schools less hostile and unsupporting? Up to 90% of respondents reported their schools' anti-bullying policy did not include any reference to lesbian and gay-related bullying. Is that due to a lack of direction from the Department of Education and Science or just an Irish solution to an Irish problem, the less said, the better? Should there be more consultation between teachers, parents groups and the Department?
In conversation with Ms Sandra Gowran several weeks ago, we noted, as it also was today, the term "gay" is used in primary schools with wild abandon. Back in the 1970s, the term was still at the stage when Mike Murphy, asked by Alan Amsby, aka Mr. Pussy, was he gay could reply, "I am happy, if that is what you mean." Gay was a term associated with happiness rather than sexual orientation. It then became synonymous with homosexuals as opposed to anything else. From a devil's advocate point of view, I think that in primary schools, aided by Katy Perry, and one of her songs, "You're So Gay", calling someone gay does not implicitly refer to their sexual orientation, that is gay. I would be interested to hear the views of the delegates on that issue. It may have originated as a slag on members of the LGBT community but I gather from people with whom I interact or those that younger members of my family interact with, that the term "gay" is moving away from sexual orientation. In that context, maybe it is time to use another terminology to identify sexual orientation. These are not necessarily my personal views but the idea has been put and I put it to the delegates. One will not get kids to restrict their use of language because language is constantly evolving and it is evolving away from using the term "gay" to mean homosexual. It is a term of rebuke and slagging but not solely associated with sexual orientation. I would be interested to hear whether the delegates agree with that contention.
On the issue of bullying, I think but I am not 100% sure on the consensus of the members of the committee, but they appear to think bullying should be looked at collectively rather than specifically in regard to LGBT issues. Since we are talking about Katy Perry, I remember a song from an obscure Danish band called Gangway back in the 80s which ties it in, as follows:
Do you remember back in school
how we all used to mock the girl
wearing a strange skirt that looked like a rug
she never quite felt that she was alright
And didn't we all go for the boy
whose parents were odd believing in God
I suppose that is odd in Danish society. In Irish society it could be the opposite. Bullying is bullying no matter what. If a person is different from the homogenous norm, he or she will be picked on, no matter what the issue. It could be anything — one could be smarter than the average person or one could have strange hobbies.
One could be a member of the Green Party.
That is it. I got slagged for a few things. We all have instances where we are slagged, sometimes it is good-natured. Sometimes we are bullied for being perceived to be different. How much of the bullying is specifically anti-LGBT sexual orientation or how much of it is because you are different to me and I do not understand it and cannot relate to it? If I was wearing a headscarf or had one leg, would it be the same? I ask that as a devil's advocate because perhaps bullying has to be looked at holistically. That said, I take very seriously what the delegates said in reference to the Department of Education and Science's gender equality unit research. Deputy Feighan mentioned that 90% of respondents reported that the schools anti-bullying policy did not include any reference to lesbian or gay-related bullying. Would the delegates be happy if that was included in all the policies because then it would be explicit and would deal with the issues? Alternatively, do the delegates want LGBT to be specific, particularly from the teacher point of view?
Certainly children may pick on kids because they have differences or whatever but perhaps the teachers pick on them because of sexual orientation. The report also shows that a minority of teachers did engage in homophobic bullying. I ask the delegates to be as strong as they can in their response to this issue. Given that under the Education Act, boards of management have a key role to play and that the religious are involved in so many boards of management, is it the view of the delegates that, if not the principal, then patrons can be obstructive in terms of ensuring that the anti-bullying policy does not include lesbian and gay-related bullying? Have the delegates found explicit opposition or is it a case of "Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, we are saying nothing about this"?
Ms Sandra Gowran
Both Dr. O'Brien and I will respond to the questions. On the issue of policies and homophobic bullying, in his research, Mr. J. Norman found that teachers found homophobic bullying more difficult to deal with than other forms of bullying. For some reason they felt they did not have the skills or the capacity to deal with homophobic bullying in the same way as they would other types of bullying. The reasons could have to do with their perceptions of homophobic bullying or the sensitivities of young people in front of them.
People have said that bullying is bullying. One could be bullied for the type of glasses one wears or one's hairstyle or whatever. When we talk about homophobic bullying or transphobic bullying we have to remember we are talking about bullying that is related to an intrinsic part of a person's human identity. One can change one's hair or glasses but not one's gender identity or sexual orientation. Therefore, it is very serious. The impact of that bullying, self-harm and the attempts at suicide, is extremely serious.
A couple of people have alluded to the fact that 90% of schools' bullying policies do not include sexual orientation or gender identity. I do not believe that is intentional. It may be that people's consciousness is not sufficiently alert to know that this is a very serious issue. That is the reason we are very pleased with the committee's——
I am sure Ms Gowran has direct correspondence with the schools..
Ms Sandra Gowran
A national anti-bullying campaign would have gone out to all schools. If homophobic bullying is not included the fear is that it remains silent and invisible and in the corridors, toilets or school yard where it is not visible to school management and staff. That is the reason we say we are not looking for special LGBT-specific bullying policies but LGBT students to be included in all school policies, not just anti-bullying policies. Schools in the UK have found that where specific mention of sexual orientation or gender identity is included in their policies, there has been a decrease in the number of students who have reported being bullied or harassed.
There are clearly issues in regard to LGBT teachers and their fears around being out and open about their sexual orientation or gender identity in schools.
Is it relevant because one would not ask a teacher about his or her heterosexuality, or one should not?
Ms Sandra Gowran
No. One would not.
It is relevant if one is bullied.
Ms Sandra Gowran
Very often it is apparent from a natural conversation in a staff room that heterosexual people are married, in a relationship or have children. Sometimes people who are in a minority have to state that minority for it to become visible. Deputy Brian Hayes said primary schools have an LGBT group within the INTO, the ASTI has a similar group and the TUI is developing policy around sexual orientation so there is significant movement in that area.
On the issue of the INTO LGBT group, on which Dr. O'Brien will speak, and Deputy Ruairí Quinn's opening remarks about homophobic bullying in primary schools, the INTO LGBT group is about to launch a programme called "The Inclusive Staff Room". If that programme was broadened out to become the "inclusive school" in primary schools, it would have an impact.
On the issue of religious schools and non-religious schools, I refer again to Mr. J. Norman's research and the value and visibility research, a copy of which was made available to members, in which there was no difference between school types. Homophobic bullying is pervasive in many schools, regardless of their religious ethos. In terms of the stakeholders and education partners, we have consulted broadly with all the education partners. The guidance going out from the Department of Education and Science and GLEN this year has the endorsement of all the education partners, including the management bodies. They have expressed a willingness to take leadership on this issue from the Department. That is why we see leadership from the Department of Education and Science as being critical to advancing these issues.
Before Dr. O'Brien contributes — a Dáil vote has been called. Deputy Quinn and I have been formally paired, so we will continue the meeting along with the Senators. Other Deputies will have to give their apologies. It is to be hoped that the discussion will be ongoing when they return and whatever they miss will be on the record.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
To follow on several points Ms Gowran made, I recently did some consultations focused on homophobic bullying with young LGBT people who spoke about their experiences in school. Some issues they mentioned were that they could tell that teachers were very uncomfortable, were not informed and did not seem to be educated about the issues. They also noticed that teachers did not say a word but were completely silent. Teachers would overhear very serious homophobic bullying taking place in classrooms or corridors but would say nothing. The students pick up on the fact that teachers seem to be lost. They are looking for——
Is that taken as tacit permission to continue the bullying?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Absolutely.
In terms of what was overheard, what type of terminology was being used?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Abusive language was used against young people who were perceived to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. They were called abusive names in front of teachers and the teachers said nothing. They pretended not to hear, but the abuse was loud enough for them to hear. The students can pick up on the fact that teachers are lost. The students are very perceptive and feel that teachers fear they will not have the backing of the principals and boards of management. They are lost without such guidance from the leadership in the education sector.
Regarding the issue raised on how people can spot problems early and work with a young LGBT person, the critical issue is that we do not need to spot problems early if we provide a positive environment. If we, from the very start, continually provide schools where young LGBT people are specifically welcomed, anti-bullying policies specifically mention homophobic and trans-phobic bullying and such issues are contained in the curriculum, the problem may be resolved. The young people I spoke to told me teachers will skip over the parts of the curriculum that could address LGBT issues.
When such a positive environment is in place, we would not need to look out for and try to figure out who might be LGBT because they will already be receiving positive reinforcement. They will have a sense from the adults they interact with that if one were to be lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, it would be fine and the adults would still love and support them. Another issue young people mentioned was that they would like the support of their teachers, to be able to confide in them and find resources from them instead of trying to search the Internet on their own.
BeLonG To youth services offer support to parents. We find that initially parents are nervous and do not have any information available to them and are scared on behalf of their children. However, they come around very quickly and become very supportive of their family. The key elements that are missing are the resources and information that parents and schools might have available to them and be able to distribute easily.
Has Dr. O'Brien come across a young person in the youth service who was being bullied for homophobic reasons, the school in which he or she was located failed to adequately deal with the problem and the person concerned sought a transfer to another school? Is it a rare occurrence or has Dr. O'Brien experienced it on several occasions?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
I do not know if I could say how frequent or rare it is. We have had students who come to BeLonG To youth services who have experienced bullying and may have wanted to change schools, but it may not have been possible, for various reasons. Some students who have left school early have come to BeLonG To youth services. It is not appropriate for me to say how frequent or rare it is, but it is happening.
There is an informal practice between schools where, if a young teenager wants to leave a school for whatever reason and applies to go to another school, the schools in question will communicate informally with each other. If I am in school A and I am unhappy for whatever reason and apply to go to school B, school B will contact school A at some level and ask if there is a story or issue involving me, because it does not want to shuffle on problems. It is an informal network and depends very much on the personalities of the principals and the location of the school.
It is also expected. It would be considered good practice for schools to respect each other and do that.
If there was a cluster of children in which one child was a victim, for whatever reason, one solution was to remove the child from the cluster. However, there must be informal communication about it, rather than simply transferring the problem. Do the witnesses have such anecdotal or informal experience?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Ms Gowran may also want to pick up on this, but I would be hesitant about removing the victim because it can send a message to the young people who are bullies that they have been successful.
The delegation mentioned that 90% of schools do not include homophobic bullying in their anti-bullying policies. It may very well be that it is not considered to be bullying, in terms of the school's policy, therefore there is no internal remedy available to the young person affected in the school. Not every young person wants to be a hero and try to fight it. It may be an easier option for him or her and his or her parents; it may not be the most courageous option, but a parent may consider moving to another school to be the best option for himself or herself and his or her child. It is an option that is exercised not just on the issue of homophobic bullying but in many other areas.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
We do not expect students to be courageous. Young people said to me that they do not want to have to find solutions to bullying on their own, because if teachers and principals addressed the issue they would not feel the sense of personal responsibility to find a solution.
The whole notion of having to stand up for oneself is very isolating.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Absolutely.
That is why the support structures around this issue are so critical. Dr. O'Brien referred to providing a positive school climate and environment, the ingredients of which are manifold. I agree that standing up for oneself or being courageous is difficult. It was encouraging to hear Dr. O'Brien say she did not expect a young person, who is an individual in his or her own right but may not be understood or accepted, to be courageous.
Ms Sandra Gowran
On the point raised by Deputy Quinn on schools communicating informally with each other, we do not have information about that but the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals has engaged very closely with BeLonG To and GLEN. It is a point we may raise with them, namely, communicating messages and if it is good practice or not in these instances.
The witnesses mentioned they did not believe that the schools that did not have homophobic bullying included in their anti-bullying polices omitted that intentionally. How explicit do BeLonG To, GLEN or the Department have to be before they conclude that the schools are deliberately excluding people? The witnesses are being somewhat generous or diplomatic in what they are saying. It is intentional in many cases because the schools do not want to face up to the issue. It is probably difficult for teachers in classrooms.
I said the term "gay" seems to have changed among young people. I was called "faggot" a lot in school. I happen to be heterosexual, but I was into 1980s fashion and wore eye shadow and was a little bit different. I was called names. Kids who did not seem to be in any way different were called names, for example, "You are a shirt-lifter, you are a faggot." A heterosexual kid getting this term of endearment could take insult. Some kids would get annoyed at being called a name and others would shrug it off because they did not see that they were gay, lesbian or transgender. I surmise that sometimes teachers assume — unless the pupil has come up to them and complained — that if a child is being slagged off it is just a crude slagging term that is being used and if they draw attention to every crude slagging term used in a classroom, they will never get any work done. Maybe that expands into the anti-bullying policy where they cannot write that down. Kids always slag other kids with names, some of which relate to sexual orientation, which is not nice and is not warranted, but when one is in a busy classroom environment and trying to get a 40-minute class taught, how many times must one disrupt the education of the students to pay attention to a specific term, especially as he or she may assume that it is not being directed at someone who is LGBT but it is just an immature abusive term? The teachers need to know that the student in question is LGBT to know that it affects the pupil and is damaging his or her psyche as opposed to just being a general abusive term.
I am interested in BeLonG To's views from the point of view of how teachers would deal with a situation where abusive language is used irrespective of orientation, and how explicit one needs to be to get the anti-bullying policy changed. BeLonG To is saying the Department needs to be more proactive. Is it the Department's role to do that or is it BeLonG To's role? How can BeLonG To force the schools to put it into the policy because it seems BeLonG To is saying that it is not intentional? Maybe there needs to be a little more shouting from all sides before we move on to what yard stick one could use.
Ms Sandra Gowran
If I may respond to some of those points and pick up on some of Senator Healy Eames earlier questions, I suppose when I use the term "unintentional" I mean the perception, as was raised earlier, is that bullying is bullying and we do not need to be specific about different types of bullying. That is a common perception which needs to be challenged. In that regard, leadership from the Department of Education and Science is crucial.
A few years ago the Department issued templates to support schools around different issues. One of them, which was on anti-bullying, named homophobic bullying, but that is a template on the Department's website. The existing guidelines date from 1993, and have yet to be updated. It appears it is the plan by the Department to update those, although I am not sure of that. We would see that as being a key opportunity to have a strong focus on homophobic bullying within those guidelines.
On the pejorative use of terms such as "gay" and "queer", there are other names attached to other minority groups in Ireland of which there is absolute intolerance. I would say that such is the exact approach needed on sexual orientation. Dr. O'Brien would probably have a view on this as well.
The findings from the statistics and research are clear. This is impacting seriously on young people and it is not acceptable for one to say he or she did not mean it that way because the root meaning is negative towards homosexuality or LGBT people. I understand that seven and eight year olds, and four and five year olds, might use that term not meaning anything about LGBT people. That said, the adult leadership of which Dr. O'Brien spoke needs to be given from primary school level right up, that when one uses those terms in a pejorative sense we do not accept it.
I know this. I have taught myself. I have had to deal with that name-calling. One could have to stop the class 20 times, but one will not have to stop it 20 times five days a week for X number of times in the year. Once students get the message that this will not be tolerated in individual classrooms and throughout the school, then it will begin to sink in.
I am not convinced about that. If they know this is a means to get the teacher to stop the class they will certainly use it. It must be a school-wide issue. Attitudes are really hard to change. That is a fact. Some 90% of the policies do not even mention this and sending a document to schools just will not fix the problem.
At the same time, there is the overcrowded curriculum. I went into schools doing different forms of training in the past and I still do a little bit. It comes down to respect, which is the key central point for many groups, including groups of disabled people. To use the word "handicapped" is not because the person has a disability, but is in the very same sense that the Chairman stated that they say the person is "gay". It is like the person is "daft".
Yes, stating the person is "a retard" or whatever.
Maybe it would be healthier, if I may use that word, to couch this under the umbrella of language that is positive and negative, not just to couch this against a background of an LGBT issue.
Unfortunately, I must go because I have another appointment.
In effect, we should celebrate GLEN's achievement, which is what Ms Gowran started off with. GLEN has got all of the stakeholders behind a document that is being disseminated widely. Maybe we are ahead of ourselves. We should probably review the impact of that application in approximately two years' time because GLEN has done many of the things that we are talking about. GLEN has got it main-streamed into the entire bullying culture and has a document behind which are all of the stakeholders, including the Department of Education and Science which, as we all will be aware, moves with the speed of a dinosaur.
Slower than that.
Yes. To get that far is something in which GLEN should take legitimate pride.
What we need do is monitor how well it is applied because, as Deputy Brian Hayes stated, they are only words on pages until such time as they become reality on the ground.
GLEN now has got the document. There is a tendency with all of us to get the policy produced through conference and then assume one can achieve it. That is the beginning, not the end, but for many of us the completion and publishing of the research is the end whereas, in fact, it should be the beginning. What steps, if any, can we take to help the delegation monitor how well this is implemented and becomes a reality on the ground?
Ms Sandra Gowran
I will begin the response and Dr. O'Brien can add to it. We identified that the committee has a strong leadership role to play. We could start by suggesting that if there are State agencies here, the committee would ask what they are doing to support LGBT, whether they be young people or other people, in their areas.
I am not sure how possible this is. There are expert groups or sub-committees on other areas, and we would see this as a significantly serious issue for such a group to be formed.
If the Department were to re-establish its interdepartmental working group on sexual orientation, we would look on that as a significant move. Quite correctly, a document is a document and it will go out to all schools.
It is how one filters it down to the practitioner, to the parents and to the youth group.
Ms Sandra Gowran
Absolutely, yes. We recognise that it is only the start of a process and it is important that it is built upon. Dr. O'Brien may wish to add to how the committee can help.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
I want to pick up on a question raised, whether or not there is a relationship between bullying and suicide. This report shows that there is a clear relationship between the two. There is a statistically significant correlation between bullying and self-harm and suicide attempts. It is a really serious issue. It is a serious issue for the Department to take responsibility to address this entire area of risk.
To return to the Department's research regarding 90% of schools, should there be a departmental circular to the effect that this should be included in schools. What is GLEN's view regarding that?
Ms Sandra Gowran
That would be a huge advance, given the strength of departmental circulars in schools.
Does it have to be as bold and blatant as that? The extent of the loss of life shows failure, and how serious this issue is. We need to work back from that point to see how we can remedy this and what positive steps we can take. I guess we all suspected it, but now GLEN is confirming that there is a real link between bullying and self-harm and suicide and that there is evidence to support that. That is a damning outcome.
Ms Sandra Gowran
I wish to pick up on a couple of other points the Senator raised earlier around early school leaving and the other impacts of that. There are clear links between equality and diversity and people's access to and attainment in education. Returning to the presentation, if we are serious about this country's economic development we need to take those issues of diversity and equality within our schools very seriously so that we get the most out of all of our young people. The Senator also raised the question of teacher education colleges. The role of the Teaching Council would be very important with regard to that, and there are things happening in different teacher education colleges at second level that I know of. I do not know of any at primary level, but they tend to be isolated and very dependent on individuals that are leading those.
In terms of educating parents for whom all of this may be new, many schools send out a four-sheet document containing details about relationships and sexuality education. It might be a good idea to encourage schools to include references to LGBT and information about what parents can do or who they should contact if they have a concern.
I presume BeLonG To youth service is doing that anyway.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Yes, we are involved in similar work
How is BeLonG To funded?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
We are funded from the National Office for Suicide Prevention and from the One Foundation, and those would be significant funders.
The number of people who commit suicide in Ireland on a yearly basis is approaching 500. Can Dr. O'Brien state what percentage of that number comes from the LGBT community?
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
That is very difficult to determine. Some research conducted in the States quite a while ago suggested that 30% of attempted suicides were linked to LGBT identity. I am not familiar with recent research. The US research mentions a statistical correlation between victimisation and suicidality.
We have seen some tragic cases reported in the media in the past 12 months. Members of the committee would concur that it is not just a case of self-esteem issues or that people should be bigger than to be put down by slagging. It has a serious impact if one is made little of because of LGBT, given that it involves a person's intrinsic sexuality and identity. It will contribute to the incidence of suicide and self-harm. It is not the only matter but it is a specific one.
Ms Sandra Gowran
Dr. O'Brien also has something she would like to say. We have talked a great deal about suicide and self-harm. However, there are young people who are coming out younger than ever before and in greater numbers than ever before. That is an example of how they are much more self assured and confident than before and not necessarily demanding but asserting their rights as young people. That is hugely positive. Sometimes we talk about these issues as if they were hugely difficult to address in schools. It is not hugely difficult and where there is willingness it is possible to create that culture of respect.
There are unique opportunities in schools, for example, at assembly. Some schools do that. That is the place to set the tone. Principal training is a critical area, because the principal sets the tone for the leadership of the school. It is not good enough just to target individual teachers because they often exist in their own little republic and there is not as much linkage with every other teacher as there is in the case of the principal. As difficult as it is, there are ways to do it. It is about acceptance that it is important enough to do.
I have looked through the report in terms of health services and access to services and counselling and therapeutic environments. I suggest that a copy be made available to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children.
This matter came before a sub-committee of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children.
Ms Sandra Gowran
Both GLEN and BeLonG To recently made a presentation to the Sub-Committee on the High Level of Suicide in Ireland.
There are recommendations to be made to the Department but we do not have enough members present at the moment to do so. However, a departmental circular to schools specifically mentioning LGBT related bullying in anti-bullying policies would be one of them, as well as recommendations on training initiatives and the Teaching Council.
I hope the delegation found it useful to come before the committee. We certainly found the presentations educational and constructive. If GLEN or BeLonG To want to contact us again they are very welcome to do so. The committee has time constraints because of its work programme. That is why GLEN and BeLonG To were invited the same day as Enterprise Ireland. If they do not get to attend a committee meeting again for 18 months it is nothing personal, it is just the work schedule. However, they may send in any communication they wish in the meantime. If, having seen the transcript of this meeting, they feel the Department officials and the Minister are not responding quickly enough, they may feel free to contact the committee and we will pursue the matter.
I thank the representatives of GLEN and BeLonG To for attending and giving such a detailed and informative presentation.
Dr. Carol-Anne O’Brien
Thank you. We would be willing to return and we could bring some young people with us who might be able to share their experiences.
The joint committee adjourned at 12.30 p.m. sine die.