I welcome Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa, chairperson, Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc, director, and Mr. Brendan O'Dea, deputy director. Regarding privilege, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are also directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Reform of Teacher Education: Discussion with Teaching Council and Student Teacher Group
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
I am chairperson of the council. To my left is Mr. Ó Ruairc, the council's newly appointed director and Mr. O'Dea, our deputy director. We wish the Chairman well in her role and look forward to regular engagement with her and the committee, which has a broad remit. From our perspective, that remit is important to society as a whole, in which regard teaching as a profession is second only to parenthood. The Teaching Council is the statutory body charged with responsibility for maintaining and enhancing the quality of that teaching. Our role is broadly similar to that of the Medical Council in terms of doctors and An Bord Altranais in terms of nurses.
The Teaching Council Act charges us with promoting and regulating the profession of teaching. We are doing this in a number of ways. We have established and are maintaining the State's first register of teachers at primary, post-primary and further education level. This means that our work impacts on the teaching and learning experience of all learners from the age of four through to adulthood. Recently, the council published the second edition of the code of professional conduct for teachers. This was done after a comprehensive public consultation process that included significant engagement with all of the key stakeholders. The code is a clear, succinct statement of what is expected of the teaching profession in its work. It is grounded in the core values of respect, care, trust and integrity. It will also be a key element in the council's fitness to teach process when that is in place. It is important in supporting teachers in their daily work in the classroom and in reassuring parents and the public as to what they can expect when they place their children in the care of these professionals.
We have reviewed eight programmes of initial teacher education. Arising from the literacy and numeracy strategy, we will embark on a review and accreditation of the reconceptualised programmes of initial teacher education during the next two years. This significant and complex work will involve eight review panels examining more than 45 different programmes. All undergraduate programmes, such as the BEd at primary level, will be four years in duration while all postgraduate programmes, such as the HDip as it was previously known, will be two years in duration. However, it is not more of the same. This will be one of the most significant developments in the teaching profession since degree status was achieved for it in the 1970s.
In the context of the council's criteria and guidelines, we are asking colleges to re-examine all that they do and to articulate clearly their rationale for so doing. We are asking them to make full use of the opportunity that this extra time affords them to enhance the preparation of our young adults for the profession of teaching in the 21st century classroom. We have also reviewed and accredited five new programmes for those working in the further education sector and are reviewing two more.
Recently, the council approved a report on the Gaeltacht placement element of the new initial teacher education programmes for primary teaching. This is a mandatory element of initial teacher education at this level. In the new model, participants must attend a course in a Gaeltacht setting for two blocks of two weeks, with each block to be taken in a separate academic year. We facilitated the formation of a working group comprising the colleges of education and worked with them to develop a set of protocols as to how this process should work in all programmes. This report has been circulated to the colleges, the Gaeltacht providers and the Departments of Education and Skills and Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. The colleges and Gaeltacht providers are due to engage with one another to work out how this will be implemented. We look forward to seeing the fruits of those discussions soon. We are also in the process of completing a set of guidelines on school placement in full consultation with all the stakeholders. This would previously have been referred to as the teaching practice. The new term reflects the more nuanced understanding of the work involved for the student teacher. They are expected not only to teach their class but to develop an understanding of the life and community of the school as a whole. The development of these guidelines on school placement has been a gradual and incremental process but it is working because it has been based on a strong partnership model. As one stakeholder said at the most recent plenary session, everybody is beginning to speak the same language on this issue which, as any educationalist will say, is a huge achievement.
As chair I thank publicly all those stakeholders for their co-operation with the process to date. Our expectation is that once the guidelines are completed and disseminated, schools will lead each other in adopting the best practice described therein. We would hope that schools will be able to teach each other as to why this should be done and how it can be done.
The council co-ordinates the Garda vetting process for all new entrants to the register. We have more than 10,000 applications for Garda vetting in any one year. We are also liaising closely with the Garda Síochána on the processes required to oversee the vetting of all other teachers. It is worth noting, however, that this will be an extra layer of protection in this sensitive and important area. All schools are required to have a child protection policy and the Children First guidelines are already being implemented by schools.
The council assesses qualifications from teachers who have completed their studies overseas and who are seeking to be registered here. This is to ensure they meet the same standards as students who studied in Ireland. This involves the assessment of approximately 1,200 applications per annum. The council has also commissioned research and funded research bursaries in a number of areas such as teachers' professional development, practice-based research, job satisfaction and occupational stress in teaching. To date, 37 research summary reports have been submitted and published on the Teaching Council website. All of our work in the above area serves to promote the profession of teaching by making it clear to the public and to prospective entrants that teaching is a rich and fulfilling profession that is grounded in the highest standards. It is a profession that has historically enjoyed the trust of the Irish people. The Teaching Council is able to demonstrate in a number of ways why the public should continue to place that trust in the profession. There is a good story to be told about teaching. We have told and will continue to tell that story through a variety of engagements with our stakeholders and with the media.
I hope that gives members some sense of the volume and breadth of activity in which the council is engaged on behalf of the teaching profession and on behalf of the public. Much is going on but we all know there are further far-reaching changes ahead. The council welcomes that but we are also aware of some of the significant challenges facing us before we can engage with those changes effectively. I invite Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc to speak on some of these developments.
Before Mr. Ó Ruairc starts, because of a time constraint, I ask that he give a summarised version. I am aware he sent an executive summary. I understand that paragraph 5 of the executive summary corresponds to where he will start on the main presentation.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
I thank the Chair. I will be as brief as possible. As members are aware, we are anticipating the commencement of section 30 of the Teaching Council Act in the coming school year. The section provides that only registered teachers employed in State-funded teaching positions will be paid from moneys voted by the Oireachtas. We share the frustration of teachers in regard to the delay in the commencement of all the provisions of the Act. I thank all 73,000 teachers who have registered to date, because without their registration the council would not be in the position it is today in terms of affirming the status of the profession to the same extent.
I thank the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, for passing the Education (Amendment) Act which has enabled us to undergo the data-matching exercise with the Department of Education and Skills and VECs. Its main function is to try to ascertain how many teachers are teaching in schools who are not registered. Once that information is obtained, we hope to be in a position to agree on a date for the commencement of the section, which would give teachers ample time to get their documentation in order to enable us process their applications.
Fitness to teachis of much interest to the committee and the broader public. It is important to note that teachers themselves want that to happen as much as anybody else. The cliché goes that the greatest critic of an underperforming teacher is the teacher next door. Teachers themselves have sought the establishment of the council for the past 40 years and want this to happen. Two things that must happen before fitness to teach can take place: commencement of section 30 and sufficient staff and resources in the Teaching Council. It is quite a demanding role and a critical area of importance. Much sensitivity and legal expertise is required.
On reform of teacher education, which I understand is one of the main topics the committee wants to discuss, induction and probation functions are to be commenced by the council in September. This will be a requirement for all newly qualified teachers from 1 September and a programme of workshops is to be rolled out in that regard. We also intend to re-engage with all stakeholders in the area of probation which was an issue of some controversy early in the year. The fundamental value behind that is the idea of professional self-regulation - the profession acting as the final gatekeepers of entry into what is a much trusted profession. As a council we think that is a value to which everybody can subscribe. All we want to know is who does it, what they sign off on, and to come up with a system that is fit for purpose and, at the same time, is manageable within the current workload in schools.
The chairman has already dealt with the initial teacher education programmes, the marginally extended programmes and what is going on there. However, I wish to close on the communications area, on which we are working hard, and we are about to embark on a new phase of communications work with teachers. As we do so, we will need teachers to engage with us as any professionals would engage with the promoter and regulator of their profession. For our part we are committed to working harder to ensure they fully understand the importance of the Teaching Council's remit, especially in terms of its responsibility to promote the profession of teaching.
As already stated, teachers and the public have been somewhat short changed to date in terms of the council they were promised but they are benefiting from our work in a number of areas. We acknowledge that we need to do more in the communications area. It is a vital issue and, like so many, suffers from insufficient resources in the current economic climate. For the staff in our offices in Maynooth, this is also a cause of immense frustration. They care passionately about their work because they know the profound responsibility they carry which is the quality of teaching in every classroom in the country. The stakes could not be higher. The quality of the learning experience of every child, young person and many adults is at stake. All of us in the council share the frustration of teachers. We would like to convey to them today that the process of enabling us to provide the service they were promised has taken much longer than any of us expected. We are hopeful that the Minister will be in a position to complete that journey - the professionalisation of teaching which stretches back to the 1970s when, as the chair said, degree status was achieved for the profession. We will continue to work tirelessly in co-operation with the Department and all stakeholders to ensure that day comes sooner rather than later.
I look forward to taking questions from Members.
I thank Mr. Ó Ruairc. I will go by party, but as Senator Fidelma Healy Eames indicated she has to leave, I will allow her in.
I appreciate that but I will follow the responses. I welcome the witnesses and especially the fact that the BEd programme is moving to four years. We have sought that for at least ten years. The witnesses say it will be very different. I hope the extra year is not just an add-on. In that four-year programme will special educational needs be a core element for all students? I worked in teacher education and something like that was previously an elective course, which was ridiculous considering that we are mainstreaming. The witnesses said they had reviewed eight programmes in initial teacher education to date. What did they find? How did the colleges react to that? Did that include the HDip, which is second level as opposed to primary? I am delighted to hear what has been said about Gaeltacht courses being included.
On standards, when the programmes of teacher education are reviewed, how does the Teaching Council decide on the standard? Against what are standards measured? What is the council's level of expertise in this area? For example, would external examiners have done this heretofore and, if so, is the council tied in with the external examiner who will come in at the end of the exam boards in any given year?
In regard to induction, who will do the induction of the new teacher? In regard to probation, which is a new area, will the inspector be involved? I understand this might not be the case. Are teachers in agreement? Are there any personnel such as teachers or special needs assistants working in schools who have not been Garda vetted?
I will keep to the general rule that party spokespersons speak first. I will not make a habit of allowing other members to speak ahead of them.
Like the Chairman, I welcome the representatives from the Teaching Council. When the Education (Amendment) Act was being discussed in the Dáil and in the committee there was much criticism of the Teaching Council. I note the council has decided to put more work into its communications and that is very necessary. We have had correspondence from individual teachers on this issue and from some representative organisations on the inadequacy to date of the communications. I note that 73,000 teachers are registered. What is the total number of teachers in primary and post-primary and the further education sectors? I note the council receives 10,000 applications per year for Garda vetting. This seems a very high number of applications. What is the existing probation process for newly qualified teachers?
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
I will deal with some of those points as they cover a wide spectrum. I will invite both Mr. Ó Ruairc and Mr. O'Dea to respond to some of the questions. The review of accreditation included the higher diploma in education. In reply to Senator Healy Eames, the now compulsory element of the induction programme is an out-of-school element being provided by NIPT, national induction programme for teachers. This requires the new teachers to engage in out-of-school workshops in the teacher education centres.
Even though they are already in the classrooms.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
Yes, it is over and above their teaching day. It is about aspects of their teaching practice and is contained in 12 different modules over the year and includes modules in classroom management or in dealing with parents. It is specifically targeted at the teacher in the classroom and a network is being developed. Deputy Smith asked about Garda vetting and he thought the number of applications at 10,000 per annum sounded rather high. Up to 5,000 applications are from new graduates as well as applications from other jurisdictions. Those now taking up positions and any teacher transferring within the system must now be vetted for the new employer. These are included in the 10,000 applications along with those who volunteer to be vetted. It is a high number.
A total of 73,000 teachers are registered with the Teaching Council. The recent Education (Amendment) Bill authorises the council to transfer data on those 73,000 teachers to the Department of Education and Skills. The Department is now in a matching process between our database and the Department's payroll database. The Department has the information to ascertain how many teachers on its payroll are not registered teachers and we hope to have that figure by September. Only then will the number of unregistered teachers become known. The 73,000 teachers may include some retired teachers who are not in active service or teachers on career break. That matching exercise must be done and is being carried out at the moment. The departmental officials with whom the council has dealt with over the past two months are actively working on this exercise.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
On the question about special educational needs I refer to page 13 of the criteria for programmes of ITE. The table is entitled mandatory elements of programmes of IT, under headings of inclusive education, special education, multicultural and disadvantaged.
In my view, it is important that there should not be a rush to judgment on the subject of probation. A consultation process commenced at the beginning of the year and much feedback was generated, some of which was positive and some negative and quite strong in tone. The message that was lost was what I referred to in my presentation about professional self-regulation and nobody would disagree with the message. We need to study the feedback and analyse it carefully and try to work out a number of pilot models in the system. Once evidence is collected to inform a decision at that point, we will be in a much stronger position to roll out a model that will work in the climate. To answer the question about the role of the inspectorate, it would be inappropriate to pre-empt what that role might be in advance of the analysis of the feedback.
I refer to the question about how the council communicates with teachers and the public. This will be a key component. As for the frustration of teachers with the Teaching Council, I think the council is doing a lot of positive work but it is not getting the message out. I welcome the fact that it is dealing with the communications issue.
I asked a question about the Teaching Council annual accounts for 2011 which show a surplus of €11 million and €4 million of this amount is being set aside to cater for contingencies. Interest on funds in 2011 amounted to €252,000 and this interest forms part of the overall income of the council. What is the purpose envisaged for this money? This is one of the bugbears of teachers.
The delegates spoke about the difficulty with some issues raised by teachers. One issue is the bullying of teachers, by other teachers or by pupils. What action is planned by the council to support teachers who are being bullied? I refer to the code of conduct for teachers. What is the situation if a teacher is convicted of bullying, for example? Will that person return in a position of responsibility? Has the council any guidelines in this regard?
I note a working group is examining the problem of bullying but it is an issue which is frequently raised at teachers' conferences because teachers encounter difficulties with bullying when trying to work in a classroom.
Every time a crisis arises in Irish society, schools and teachers are in the spotlight. What can the Teaching Council do to try to steer that debate because some things must be taught in the home rather than in school? I refer to the recent crisis situation in the Phoenix Park and the behaviour of young people. Critics said the young people should have been taught how to behave by their teachers and their school. In my view, much of this behaviour must be based on what is learned at home.
The point was made about the availability of database information for principal teachers and the over-reliance on the hiring of retired teachers but hopefully this will change. In some rural areas there may not be the option of a panel of substitute teachers. Can anything be done about this? I do not know where a data protection problem would arise, but I have suggested creating a database that would be available to local principals for crisis situations. This would be a positive measure. With regard to bursaries for teachers-----
I must ask Deputy Crowe to conclude.
The Teaching Council has publicised that teachers receive these and it is a positive message to send back to teachers.
Nobody will disagree with the idea of regulating the teaching profession, not least teachers themselves who to get to the position have completed years of education and engage in further courses to update their skills. We all buy into this. However, why must teachers join the Teaching Council to be of this standard and what addition does it give? It has been argued, and I agree, that these functions of regulations and standards could be conducted within the Department of Education and Skills. Why is a separate organisation, which needs moneys for premises and documentation, required? These costs are then transferred to teachers through their membership fee of the scheme. I am not sure there is value for money. How does the Teaching Council justify it? I am new to the committee and not as au fait with the issues as I should be but I understand teachers pay an annual charge or membership fee, which seems particularly onerous on those not in regular employment. How is this justified? The system as it has been established is a licence to teach; one either signs up to this and joins in or one cannot teach. Am I misreading the situation?
The quality of teaching cannot be divorced from the resources and conditions in which teachers teach. The teaching profession has been demoralised through the casualisation of employment contracts. Contracts of indefinite duration do not inspire teachers if their hours are deliberately manipulated to avoid their being given a permanent contract. In thousands of cases people have been given contracts of fewer than 18 hours, perhaps 17 hours and 55 minutes, to avoid permanency. I presume this will undermine the profession more than anything else. There is a contradiction here and everything else is window dressing. Teaching conditions must be examined. There has been a throwback and a certain contradiction exists. I fully appreciate it is not the fault of the Teaching Council but I would like to know the opinions of the witnesses on it.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Our most recently published accounts show a surplus of approximately €11 million. This has arisen because we have not been able to function fully since we began in 2006. We calculated our annual fee at €90 based on our operating at full steam but we are still at only 50%. We have accumulated a surplus. The Teaching Council took a decision to reduce the annual fee to €65 knowing the Minister is determined to roll out all of our functions. This will cost money so we will eat into the surplus, one may call it a sinking fund, over the next five years. What is a large surplus at present will diminish over time and will be used up for the purposes for which it was intended.
We are very aware of the issue of bullying of teachers and the point has been made to us on several occasions. Our role with regard to teachers is much the same as that of the Medical Council with regard to doctors. In the first instance any form of bullying, be it teacher to teacher bullying or an allegation of a principal bullying a teacher, should be brought to the attention of the school under the school procedures. This is best practice. When fitness to teach is rolled out by the council in the next year to 18 months, it will provide an opportunity for a teacher who wishes to make a complaint about the behaviour of another teacher. However, in the first instance all bullying, whether it is a student, principal or parent bullying a teacher, or teacher to teacher bullying, should be dealt with in the school. If it is a professional matter it could come back to the council.
In some cases a principal is involved in bullying.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
The principal is a teacher and a registered professional; therefore, such an issue would need to come to the council, and it will be possible for it to handle such issues in the future.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
It is important to point out the code will apply to all registered teachers no matter what positions they hold, including principals. The question was asked whether a bullying teacher could return to the classroom. If it is a matter for a hearing by the Teaching Council's disciplinary panel, the findings will influence what restrictions will be imposed. A teacher could be suspended from the register, deregistered completely or be registered with conditions such as requiring further professional development courses. It is possible such a teacher could return to the classroom but it will depend on the findings in the case.
With regard to the availability of a database for teachers it is important to point out the Teaching Council is a registration body and has no access to the employment status of a particular registered teacher. The teacher could be on a career break, on sick leave or retired. Week to week information does not feed back into the register. I appreciate the problem whereby a principal cannot find a substitute teacher on a Monday morning, but the council does not have a database of who is employed and unemployed; it has a database of registered teachers which is all the Act allows it to have.
I thank Deputy Crowe for his acknowledgement of the bursaries. It is a very important area for the council. With regard to communications, issues with regard to staffing and how to promote the bursaries have arisen.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
Deputy Daly asked two questions on why the Teaching Council is necessary and, if we accept the need for it, why it must be separate. I consider this in terms of trust and the verification of trust. Parents hand over their most precious gifts in the world to a stranger at the gate. The total amount of time a parent spends speaking to a teacher over the school year, including parent teacher meetings, is approximately one and a half hours. Given that they are strangers one trusts the profession. If teachers were to say they have built up trust over the past decades it would be correct, but in the Ireland of today we know how easily trust can be abused. We need new formal structures for the verification of trust to satisfy the public as to the standards people have had to achieve to access the profession and the standards they must maintain to stay in it.
With regard to why the organisation must be separate, international experience has shown the best way to achieve the system-wide change we are speaking about is to get buy in from the professionals who will implement the change in the system. Teachers were far-seeing enough 40 years ago to see the need for such a structure which would have self-regulation at its core. We are aware the winds have changed somewhat in this regard in recent years in the broader political sphere, but as our functions have not commenced we ask for a chance to show self-regulation can work and then make a judgment on us. I am speaking in particular with regard to fitness to teach and continuing professional development.
It is not always a neat exercise to try to divorce the personal from the professional with regard to remuneration. We have acknowledged this with regard to qualifications allowances and we have made statements on this issue. However, there is a distinction between the terms and conditions of teachers who are well looked after by teaching unions and the professional standards they are supposed to uphold, which the Teaching Council maintains.
Deputy Daly also asked about the Teaching Council's fee.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Deputy Daly's question was with regard to unemployed teachers or those who work in short bursts. The council has examined whether a reduced fee could be provided for people in those circumstances. It is immensely difficult to police such a system. One must rely entirely on the teachers concerned declaring their status and on the accuracy of their declaration. One could be unemployed at the beginning of March and employed by the middle of March on having signed a three-month contract.
Our finance committee will be considering whether it is possible to have an alternative fee for new teachers at the beginning of their teaching careers. It is very difficult to handle this but we accept an issue arises as to what fee should be levied on people on low incomes in the teaching profession.
I have listened carefully to the presentation. I have been very critical in the past, which I accept, but I am very worried. Mr. O'Dea told us the council will be at full steam very soon, yet it has 23 staff, 37 members and €11 million in a bank. I am worried about how many more will be taken in because teachers have described the council to me as another quango. I ask Mr. O'Dea to state whether they are right or wrong.
Teachers have told me they do not really have trust and confidence. One reason is the vote and the mix-up. Only 8% to 10% voted in the Teaching Council election. Teachers do not feel it is representative.
I was pleased to hear Mr. O'Dea talk about improving communications. Has the council employed a public relations company to carry out its communications? The council's one-size-fits-all approach to teachers can be difficult. This was raised with the Minister. An example concerns coaching soccer to Youthreach children and teenagers. I know a coach who, despite his having trained players for Shamrock Rovers, Drogheda United and Bray Wanderers, was told he is not good enough to teach in and be paid by a college of further education. I know of many other examples. We need to consider this matter.
Perhaps I missed the part of the presentation on teachers on probation. Before a teacher goes on probation, is he a member of the Teaching Council? If so, why do problems arise? The council insists that teachers who have trained in England must do a year in a classroom in Ireland when they come here. Many find it very difficult to get jobs in England. Thus, when they return to Ireland and want to do their first or second year, as part of their diploma or whatever it is now called, they cannot get work and are not recognised by the Teaching Council.
There are two other points I wish to address. I will telephone the council about the first because it is quite complex. It pertains to the EU directives associated with qualifications. Teachers have told me the council is not taking on board the breadth of the directives on qualifications. My last point is that the council is not answering its telephones. This may be a minor point but, none the less, I verified it this morning. It is really annoying people. I tried telephoning yesterday evening and this morning and there was no answer. I just received a message stating I should send an e-mail. Some teachers tell me they are not receiving responses. Perhaps Mr. O'Dea could revert to me on those points.
Cuirim fáilte roimh gach duine, go háirithe Tomás Ó Ruairc. Tá sean-aithne agam air agus tá sé go deas é a fheiceáil anseo inniu.
The PR problem has been articulated widely, as has the fact that only 8% of teachers participated in the last election to the Teaching Council. Reference was made to the fact that the council hopes to address this. Mr. O'Dea talked about the fee so I will not talk about it again.
The stated purpose of the council is to promote teaching as a profession. How is this being achieved? The second stated purpose is to ensure the continuing professional development of teachers. How is this achieved?
On entry-level requirements for teacher training, particularly at primary level, there is a conversation on the need for higher-level mathematics. Higher-level Irish is currently required. Does the Teaching Council believe this is still necessary? Is it, as I believe, a barrier to the entry to the teaching profession of disadvantaged students? Should we not place more emphasis on the capability of teachers as they leave teacher training than on their attainments on entry? I would have major qualms about a stipulation requiring teachers to have higher-level mathematics. What matters is what teachers deliver in the classroom, not what they get in their leaving certificate examinations, considering that points are so high in any event.
With regard to teacher training, particularly at primary level, there is considerable emphasis on Irish and religion. In the study on the practices in Mary Immaculate College, it was discovered that four times more time is spent on religion than science and technology. How does the Teaching Council hope to address that? The president of the college, in his opening remarks, made it quite clear he had no intention of addressing the imbalance.
The role of the principal in the probation of teachers is controversial. I do not have an issue with it but wonder how the Teaching Council believes it will address it. How can we address homophobic bullying and LGTB issues?
Reference was made to the fact that there will be an entire strand on special needs and education for the disadvantaged. This is very welcome. Traditionally, many teachers who entered disadvantaged schools or dealt with special needs children were completely unprepared. In future, circumstances will be different, which is very welcome.
Does the Teaching Council believe it is realistic, particularly at primary level, to expect somebody to enter a college of education at 18 years of age, completely separated from all other strands of education, as occurs at present? Trainee teachers are in a cocoon separating them from university life. They study for three or four years – it will soon be four – and then, at the age of 21 or 22, land in a classroom of children of various backgrounds and expect to be capable, for the next 35 or 40 years, of demonstrating life experience and being an effective teacher. If one is trying to be a teacher in a classroom, having been cocooned for three or four years does not result in adequate preparation. I would like to hear the Teaching Council's response to that.
How does the Teaching Council believe its role in the handling of complaints against teachers will marry with section 24(3) of the Education Act and circular 60/2009 on the suspension and dismissal of teachers and principals?
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
Between the three of us, we will take those questions. A number of issues were raised. May I deal first with Deputy Mitchell O'Connor's question? The point arises from the European directive on mobility of labour. The role of the council, as the recognised authority in assessing the qualifications of teachers, be they home grown or from other jurisdictions, is such that it must have a means of recognising comparable qualifications. Our role is to assess each application for registration. The acceptance of some applicants is virtually automatic because they will have gone to colleges in Ireland, which we know. On the Deputy's specific question on whether a teacher is registered from day one, he or she must be. Teachers are registered on day one on the condition that there be probation or what we used to call the diploma. Those who enter the system from other jurisdictions may also have to meet this condition. The gaeilge is a condition on their registration.
If one has not engaged in induction compulsory in the jurisdiction where one has obtained one's qualification, it represents a shortcoming. Without that induction, a teacher does not have the protection of the European directive. At Teaching Council level, we are dealing with an issue that arises between Ireland and the United Kingdom, especially our nearest neighbour, Northern Ireland. Induction is a requirement in one but not in another. It is now a requirement here.
The issue was raised of the soccer coach or trainer, and it is an absolutely valid point. It relates to the issue that made recent headlines of whether engineers or others are qualified to teach the subject. Are such people qualified to teach to a particular age group or an aspect of a curriculum? If a soccer trainer puts in an application, it will be measured against all others entering the register.
A teacher may not know anything about soccer.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
We will move on as we are under some time pressure.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
There was a question about the communications firm. We are in the process of concluding a contract with a firm and we need help in that area. We cannot get the resources we would like because of the moratorium on recruitment. Teachers are quite vocal about poor communication and we want to improve our level of service, so we need help to do so. This touches on the valid complaint about the phone service. Our numbers are so stretched that the choice is as stark as either spending all day on the phones or processing applications to the register. We are trying to manage as best we can, and we are giving some hours per day to the phones and some to getting people on the register. We are considering our internal processes further to ensure they are streamlined and we are looking to improve the number of hours of the service. We are also considering the issue of the call centre. We need to improve our service in the area but we require the spending of some resources in that regard.
There is an issue regarding voter turnout and the council, and it is a significant concern. I have heard from teachers who are vocal in their negativity or hostility towards the council because we are not up to the game in their view in a number of areas. In the same breath those people would say they wished that teachers would trust their own professional judgment. I took from that conversation that teachers talk the talk of the council very clearly and walk the walk. Currently, many do not see us as the credible spokesperson for those values. Nevertheless, it is a hopeful sign and if we can get our communications correct, we know that at the other side they are talking our talk. All the values and professional self-regulation are there already.
Deputy Ó Ríordáin asked about the entry criteria. It is important to clarify that our criteria and guidelines in the area are proposals on which there will be consultation. We have already indicated to the Department that we are proposing to start the consultation process before the end of the year, with a view to putting advice on the Minister's desk in the middle of next year. Although a certain potential direction of traffic is indicated, it is not set in stone by any manner or means.
There is a valid point in the striking of a balance between a diverse intake of cohort and upholding standards in the profession. It is not an either-or issue, and in the Gaeltacht placement, for example, there was a question of whether the full cost should be levied on students. The council passed a motion in approving the Gaeltacht report, for example, calling on the Department to try to find some funding for that and skew it towards students most in need. We acknowledge there is an issue.
With regard to rebalancing of modules between languages and technology, etc., the committee should, in essence, watch this space. The two-year review of all extended programmes will consider the issue closely. All of the approximately 44 programmes are to be reviewed over the next two years, arising from the literacy and numeracy strategy. We will be running the rule over the content of every one of those programmes to see how they match up in a number of areas, including the balancing piece mentioned.
On the issue of students being cocooned, that is being addressed somewhat in our guidelines for the programmes in terms of the variety of school placement that is called for. My experience of colleges in the past would indicate the issue is not as black and white as might be suggested. In the past, students would have got a diversity of placement in Irish-medium settings, disadvantaged settings etc. in order to get the first-hand experience of life in the classroom. We are formalising this in guidelines being put together, and there must be at least two different types of placement throughout the programme. We want to see that process formalised.
I was trying to suggest that in any other degree course, people mix with others doing agriculture, architecture, arts etc. but in teacher training, people are on their own and surrounded only by people doing teacher training. In embedding the classroom in students, I am not sure that is the best process of teacher training.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
I will return to the question concerning the soccer coach. Those queries come into us regularly and we have addressed the issue through the Department of Education and Skills. We do not see the person doing the soccer coaching as a teacher and it is a question of sorting out how the requirement for teachers to be registered is applied in schools. We will sort out the register, and we have asked the Department and vocational education committees to think through how the process will be applied, particularly in terms of further education, where there is a much broader mix of people delivering lessons. That approach is being worked on and there is much activity in the area.
The entry level requirements, involving Irish and maths, are being examined. The area needs to be researched and we will return to it. I cannot give any hard and fast answers now but we hear the Deputy loud and clear. In respect of a principal's role in probation, we are considering the issue. It is hard to understand how in a school where the principal is the landlord, to put it in such terms, there would be no role in the probation of teachers. These people have a heavy workload and there are certain skill sets involved. I know the council will consider the matter in the coming months. Homophobic bullying has been mentioned and from a council perspective, the code of professional conduct is very clear. It is entirely inappropriate and the matter would be dealt with if brought to the attention of the council, as I mentioned previously.
I do not have a teaching background but have attended reviews in the colleges of education. There was a comment about young people being cocooned in colleges and away from the mix that might be seen in other universities or institutes of technology. When a person enters a college of education, there is a mix, although it might be a smaller institution. There is group cross-fertilisation. There are changes emerging in the way teacher education is being delivered that may resolve some of the issues raised by the Deputy over the coming years.
A technical question was raised about the council role and section 24(3) of the Education Act 1998, specifically regarding our investigating committee. When a complaint comes in it is passed to the investigating committee and one of the items to be checked is whether there is an ongoing section 24 investigation. If that is so, the committee must see where it is going, and it is likely that it would step back and allow the process to go on. If it is a very serious matter or if the process is either non-existent or not moving, the investigating committee is authorised, in exceptional circumstances, to step in. There is a specific process that is handled within the legislation.
I thank the witnesses for what has been a very informative presentation. Like much of the population, I would have been rather ignorant of the role of the Teaching Council, and that is a challenge to be faced, particularly as it has assumed significant responsibilities for matters not just related to the well-being of professional teaching but which will have a wider impact on the entire education system and the people going through it.
For people in my position, who are trying to familiarise themselves with the role of the Teaching Council, will the witnesses provide an outline of how the council operates? How often does it meet and how many staff does it have? Deputy Mitchell O'Connor referred to that but what is the breakdown of responsibilities and roles engaged in by the staff on a daily basis? It would be helpful to put that on the record.
I very much welcome the progress being made on the special educational needs sector and including that as an integral part of teacher training. I have seen teachers go above and beyond the call of duty to help with the mainstreaming of children with special needs and often not being provided with the formal toolkit that is required. That is welcome.
Three issues have already been raised that I wish to return to. The first is the database of teachers in Ireland. I accept the Chairman's clarification of the council's role as a registration body but considering that the Department is asking it to take on this extra workload, there must have been some discussion about how many teachers may be on the payroll. Is there an estimate of how many teachers are expected to be registered with the council when registration is complete?
Senator Healy Eames asked a question about Garda vetting and some clarity was given on it. She asked a pertinent question and it is important that we get an answer to it. Is anyone working at an Irish school at any level - primary, post-primary or in further education - who has not been Garda vetted? It is a clear question and is important. The Teaching Council has a very important role with regard to standards and reviewing courses. What I and the Irish people would like to know is what expertise does the Teaching Council engage? When it reviews courses what expertise does it bring to the process?
We speak about creating a smart economy and teaching technology in schools and the importance of people leaving school ready for the labour force and the type of jobs the economy is trying to attract. However, according to a recent EUROSTAT survey, Irish 16 to 24 year olds are less computer literate than the European average. Much work must be done in this regard. When the Teaching Council is examining standards what interaction happens with industry, business, employers and potential investors? In any form of self-regulation - this goes for the political process and the teaching profession - we do not want an internal discussion. We need to know what engagement is taking place with external people on how we can improve our education system and the quality of workforce we produce, particularly with regard to IT. Teaching IT in schools has been mentioned and teachers have often remarked to me that, through no fault of their own, many teachers may not be computer literate. I would appreciate the views of the witnesses on this.
I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee to answer our questions. Unlike many of my colleagues I do not come from a teaching background so I do not have the same grasp of the system as they do. My area of expertise is social welfare, which is why I am a member of the committee. My questions are very simplistic compared to those asked by other members. I do not know whether it comes under the remit of the witnesses but I have a major issue with the fact that 1,100 retired teachers are brought back to supervise State exams. I have an issue with retired teachers going back into the classroom when we have so many young unemployed teachers. I would like the views of the witnesses on this.
I am on a board of management and an issue constantly brought up by the principal is the amount of paperwork that must be done. Does the Teaching Council receive complaints from principals about paperwork taking up too much time, taking them out of the classroom and not giving them enough time to teach? Should we consider the use of administrators in schools to do the paperwork and let teachers get on with what they are trained to do, which is what many teachers prefer to do. Is Garda vetting a once-off event or is it repeated after a number of years? A person can offend after being vetted.
I apologise for coming back to my next issue but I must. I am aware of a case in a two-teacher school where difficulties have arisen between the two teachers, one of whom is the principal, because they have a personality clash and cannot get on and one is not at work because of stress. Nobody wants to take responsibility for it. The Department of Education and Skills states it is for the board of management but the board of management cannot deal with it. It is also suggested that it is a matter for the patron to appoint somebody to deal with it, and all the while parents do not know what to do with their children. They do not want their children to go back to an atmosphere where one day before the summer holidays there was mass hysteria in the school and every child was crying. All of the parents had to be called in to take their children home. It was disgraceful. However, nobody is dealing with the problem. The parents are deciding whether to send their children back to school. Next thing, we will hear the school is closing down because children are not attending it. We all know there can be a bad teacher, but such a teacher never seems to be removed or dealt with. He or she is left there regardless of parents complaining that he or she does not do the job properly. I ask the witnesses to address these issues.
I ask members to be brief in their questions because another group is waiting to appear before the committee.
I am not a member of the committee but I was watching proceedings on the monitor and I wish to raise one or two points. As a parent I welcome the establishment of the Teaching Council. It is important there is a regulatory body for the profession, equivalent to the Medical Council for doctors and An Bord Altranais for nursing. It is important that the Teaching Council continues to promote the highest teaching standards and ongoing training opportunities for the profession.
In the course of constituency work I have come across an issue with regard to teacher registration and I am not sure how prevalent it is. I ask the witnesses to comment on it. I was in contact with somebody who has been teaching for many years and has been making efforts to establish her registration. Given that the institute from which she qualified is no longer functional or in existence and records are no longer available, the Teaching Council is taking the approach that she cannot be registered unless she returns to college. She qualified from the Munster Institute, but the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has no record of the qualifications from the Munster Institute. It appears to me a case can be made for a grandfather clause with regard to people with long-established teaching qualifications. This lady is facing the dole queue in September because her principal has told her she cannot be re-employed, notwithstanding she has been in the position she now holds for more than 15 years. She has correspondence from the Teaching Council on the matter. It seems absurd.
Having said at the outset that I favour standards, when new legislation is being introduced there is a need to examine these cases sympathetically. When legislation was introduced in other areas we included grandfather clauses, and there is a case to be made with regard to long-established employment where no competence issues have been raised. Some recognition must be given to circumstances such as this.
With regard to fitness to teach, the Teaching Council calls for section 30 to be implemented and raised an issue with regard to the availability of resources to roll it out. Will the witnesses elaborate on this? What resources would be required to roll it out? What would be the costs associated with it? Given the discussion earlier about the surplus and the millions of euro available, why can the Teaching Council not resource it? The witnesses also mentioned progress being made with the Department.
I must ask Senator Healy Eames to be very brief because she has spoken already.
I appreciate that. I wish to return to two points I raised at the beginning. One was with regard to induction, and the response I received was interesting. I have been thinking about it. I was told there are 12 modules and a teacher would return to the teacher education college.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
To a local education centre.
That is better because I was not convinced about the cost for the new teacher and whether it was the best model.
My second point follows from something Deputy Harris asked and which I asked at the beginning also. With regard to standards, when the Teaching Council reviews teacher education programmes what does it measure them against? What is its benchmark and what expertise does it have, such as the expertise an external examiner would have? I understand the need for independence. I am keen to hear the response of the witnesses.
I apologise for not being in attendance for the presentation but I caught most of it on the feed. I am also concerned about the issues that have been raised, particularly with regard to Irish, maths and special education. I wish to ask about youth mental health. I have been working on this area and we recently held a party conference on it. I feel strongly about it. I accept there are limits on the education system with regard to these issues, and they are also issues for parents, wider society and community services. Due to the fact that children are in school all day, the education sector has a particular level of access. To me, their well-being in terms of mental health and personal development is just as important as the curriculum. Teachers consistently say that they are ill-prepared for dealing with such issues, not just in the context of the SPHE programme and delivering the programme. It is in terms of knowing what to do, how to identify problems, how to help children by establishing care plans in a school and when to refer matters outside of the school. I would appreciate hearing the council's views on whether it sees that as a priority in the reform of teacher training.
I wish to raise the same issue as Deputy Creed. Last year a constituent told me that she did not have the postgraduate diploma in education but she held a BA degree from England that allowed her to teach English in VEC post-primary schools. In order for her to teach in other secondary schools she would require the postgraduate diploma in education. The Teaching Council told her that she needed it and to then seek exemptions on the course. It would not allow her to get the necessary modules. She suggested that she could study the missing modules part-time but the council said no, that she needed to do the postgraduate course with exemptions but that would mean returning to college full-time. She could not do that because she had a family. Will the council be flexible when it comes to dealing with people that are longer in the system? Perhaps the delegation members can answer the queries and then wrap up.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
That is a tall order. How long do I have? Deputy Ryan asked a question on fitness to teach and extra resources. As a member of the council and chairman, who will also chair its discipline committee, I attended a disciplinary hearing conducted by the Welsh Teaching Council. I saw how it was conducted and the expertise that was available. The case was conducted in a fair and judicially sound manner and, similar to what is here, the teacher still had recourse to the High Court. I was struck by the amount of documentation that was required and the expertise that was available to its council, not just in terms of clerical work because it was a quasi-legal issue. I am talking about bodies being made available to the council to enable it to conduct such hearings. The council will not be able to conduct hearings unless we have the bodies to enable us to do so and that was the resource that I referred to. It is why the employment control framework and the embargo on appointments hurts the council.
Has the council estimated the cost?
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
We estimate that it will cost €1.3 million in total per annum and we have the money. The council is not seeking funding. The figure is based on our engagements with the Scottish Teaching Council and the Welsh Teaching Council. The Medical Council was recently established and its cases make headlines but they are judicially conducted in a fair and transparent manner. I ask my colleague, Mr. O'Dea, to respond to the some of the other issues and I can respond again later if all of the queries are not covered.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Deputy Harris asked about the role of the Teaching Council. Our role is to promote teaching and to set down professional standards for teaching. We deliver that in four main strands. First, we register teachers. They must meet requirements which was the subject of some comments here. They must also be placed on a register and renew their registration annually. Second, we oversee and accredit teacher education programmes. At present it is at the initial stage but in the future it will take on a continuous professional development aspect as well. Third, we set down a code of professional conduct of which we published a second edition recently. Fourth, there is the question of fitness to teach which the Chairman mentioned. There is a process for dealing with complaints made about teachers.
We have 27 full-time permanent staff and a small number of additional staff strictly for projects. We have sought 47 or 48 staff in toto but the moratorium and the employment control framework, ECF, has stymied that for the moment. That number would be intended to cover the full roll-out of all of our functions. That is a summarised version and I hope that I have informed members a little.
In response to the questions on compulsory registration and when a teacher must be registered, we have 72,500 teachers registered and we estimate that it could reach 80,000. To borrow Donald Rumsfeld's phrase "known unknown", we do not know who is unregistered but we are trying to rectify the matter through working with the VECs and the Department.
I did not fully comprehend Senator Healy Eames's third question on further education and Garda vetting.
Is there anybody in the system teaching without Garda vetting?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Yes.
How many?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
In primary, post-primary and the section of further education within our remit there are about 42,000 teachers.
Are 42,000 people teaching without Garda vetting?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Yes.
Do they work with children?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Yes, they work with children. I would not treat that issue in isolation because they are subject to pretty comprehensive child protection guidelines, systems and processes.
Is the council in contact with the Minister for Health and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
We are engaged in a major ongoing piece of work with the Department of Education and Skills, the management bodies and unions. Our processes have been worked out but there is a resources issue. The Garda central vetting unit is pushed to the pin of its collar to deal with what it has and it would find it challenging to vet 42,000 teachers. The Minister introduced the Education (Amendment) Act 2012 and it included a section that will allow us to include, as part of annual registration renewal, the possibility of requiring Garda vetting. The mechanisms are being developed to deal with the issue.
Are they new teachers? Are they teachers of long-standing?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
No. All new teachers are being Garda vetted.
So these are teachers of long-standing?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
Yes.
I am concerned.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
I shall answer the question on the expertise for reviews. Typically we bring in a professor of education and an extern from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We will probably have someone from the Department's inspectorate and we will also have a council member. We always bring in the necessary expertise.
Technology in schools is fundamentally a curriculum issue. We emphasise and require the colleges of education and HDip programmes to ensure that space is given to the teaching of IT and technology in general at the initial teacher education stage. Then it moves into continuous professional development, CPD, which we do not have control over at present but it will eventually come our way. That is the game to play out.
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
Two outstanding items remain. Deputy Harris asked about the external engagement with the business sector. First, the Act that established the council's membership provided that a space be reserved for a representative from the business community. Second, we always consult widely and in a focused manner on all of our initiatives for both public consultation and stakeholder-focused engagements.
Senator Power asked about youth mental health initiatives. A useful quote from the criterion guidelines on personal development and social development of the student teacher recognised that it is a personal endeavour as well as a professional one. Earlier I responded to Deputy Ó Ríordáin and I shall reiterate that all of the 44 programmes must be run through the mill in the context of those guidelines and looking after that sector is part of it.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
There were a few other issues. My colleague, Mr. O'Dea, shall answer Deputy Creed's question on the need for flexibility regarding long established teachers.
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
The Deputy's question related to the Munster Institute and I do not want to go into detail on that. In general, we have a process where a teacher or an applicant can come to us if his or her institute has no records or is no longer on the map. Such an instance happened in Derry where all the records were burned as part of the Troubles. We have regularly dealt with such issues. A teacher can make a legal declaration accompanied by supporting evidence to us and we will take the information on board. For example, supporting evidence could be the length of time he or she has taught in a school. I suspect that we get many queries from public representatives on such teachers but, inevitably, the question has many layers. I suspect that there are other aspects involved and I do not wish to dwell on the applicant that the Deputy may be dealing with. We try to deal with such cases and try to find mechanisms to resolve them.
Deputy Michael Creed: Has a mechanism been advanced in that case?
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
The solution is for the teacher of long standing to go back to college but that is not practical. One would need to see the qualifications that the person has.
I might pursue the matter with the council.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
Public representatives do come to us with such matters and we always examine the issues.
A person should have an option to study part time to get the necessary qualifications. One may have a family and may not be able to go back to education full time. Has the Teaching Council considered this?
Mr. Brendan O’Dea
I will take a slight side step. We have been introducing teacher education qualifications for the further education sector and we have emphasised heavily to all the providers the need for flexibility, whether it is blended or part time. We know that the providers are waking up to the fact that they are dealing with a different populace now. There are technical issues, but we will deal with them separately rather than in an open forum.
I waited to ask questions but not one of them has been dealt with.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
Senator Moloney raised a number of issues, including the employment of retired teachers to cover exams and bringing back retired teachers as substitutes. That is an issue of employment and the Teaching Council has absolutely no control over it. A circular from the Department has discouraged the employment of retired teachers. The Teaching Council has no control over employment issues.
Can the council make recommendations?
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
The Teaching Council Act 2001 does not cover employment. The Teaching Council is a registration body. We control the register. A retired teacher can be a registered teacher, however a circular from the Minister may discourage a board of management from employing them.
The Senator also raised Garda vetting. There are teachers who are not vetted. She asked who takes on the task of dealing with the situation locally. Obviously we do not know about that case. The Teaching Council would be reluctant to go straight in and ask what is going on. Under the Act it is open to a member of the public to seek an inquiry into the fitness to teach of a teacher. I presume both are employed by a board of management. The conduct within the school is a matter in the first place for the board of management. I am not suggesting the Senator takes this route. I am simply saying the Teaching Council cannot go in without-----
The board of management has already taken all the steps.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
I presume they are steps that have to be taken locally, probably through the board of management or possibly through the inspectorate if it is a professional matter. I do not know the details of the case. Any member of the public can seek an inquiry from the Teaching Council.
The ability to teach is not an issue.
I must interrupt the Senator. The Senator must be careful not to identify somebody.
I am not identifying anybody. This is not about a person's ability to teach; it is about the individual's behaviour in the school.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
The code of conduct drawn up by the Teaching Council covers collaboration, collegiality and respect for each other within schools. The Teaching Council is very proud of that code. It underwent widespread consultation and the values that underpin the code, such as care, integrity and respect, as I outlined earlier, cross the whole code. If that code is not being implemented there is an issue.
Will Mr. Ó Gríofa deal with youth mental health?
Mr. Tomás Ó Ruairc
The mandatory piece for IT programmes is one of the benchmarks against which all the new extended programmes will be assessed in the next two years. It lists the mandatory areas on page 13. One of the points listed is students' personal and social development having regard to the teacher's pastoral role. That would be one of the criteria under which we could look at the issue in all the programmes that are to be accredited in the next two years.
Mr. Micheál Ó Gríofa
Deputy Crowe raised the initiatives that are being bolted on to schools, and that would be one of them. The social, personal and health education programme is possibly the element of the curriculum that is dealing with that. The teachers are teaching it.
The question of workload was raised but that does not fall within the Teaching Council's remit.
On behalf of the Teaching Council I sincerely thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the hearing they gave us and the questions they asked. These questions also come from our own members. It is part of the progress of the Teaching Council that we engage in public fora with our own membership and with the public generally. We think this is an extremely valuable part of the process.
I thank Mr. Ó Gríofa, Mr. Ó Ruairc and Mr. O'Dea for the presentation. I hope they will return at another stage for further updates.
Our second presentation is from a group of student teachers. I welcome Mr. Ciaran Reade, Ms Yvonne Rossiter and Mr. Andrew Bates. They will raise the concerns of student teachers.
Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are also directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Mr. Andrew Bates
I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us to speak to them on behalf of newly-qualified teachers.
My colleagues Mr. Ciaran Reade and Ms Yvonne Rossiter and I have graduated from Trinity College's programme for second level teachers, formerly known as the H. Dip. Since we signed up for the course in December 2010 the following cuts to new teachers' salaries have been introduced. In the budget in 2011, there was a 10% cut in salary for all new entrants. Under the provisions of that budget, newly-qualified teachers were moved to the first point of the salary scale, this is a 5% cut. The 2012 budget imposed a cap on qualification allowances, equivalent to between 3% and 6% depending on the postgraduate qualifications. In February 2012, all qualification allowances were suspended resulting in an 11% cut. This is a total of 29%, or €11,381, in monetary terms. If one has a masters or a PhD one has taken further cuts.
We believe these cuts do serious damage to the Government's ambitions for excellence, partnership and equality in our education system. Ireland has traditionally attracted high quality people into the education system. This is really important. All international research has shown it is critical to a world-class school system. Already the numbers applying for teaching through the CAO are down. Not only are we losing school leavers and graduates, we are losing those who are transferring from industry. A substantial number of our class in Trinity College had previous careers. We have business studies teachers who ran small companies and science teachers who have worked in technology start-ups. These experiences have given people the skills, knowledge and a real understanding of what employers need from our students when they leave the school system.
The final danger is that we are disincentivising teachers from gaining additional qualifications, such as masters degrees. This failure to attract high quality graduates and create lifelong learning is seriously endangering our ambitions for a world class school system. The cuts also fly in the face of the partnership programmes that have been a cornerstone of Irish policy for over 15 years. We have the Croke Park agreement in place and new teachers were ready and willing to work with the agreement. We were ready to find creative ways of doing things with less money to bring innovative new practices into the classroom and simply work harder to ensure our students get the best education they can in these tough times.
I applaud the spirit of partnership, as we all do; however, the Croke Park agreement has laid the legislative groundwork for these cuts. Many of my new teaching colleagues will ask why they should take part in an agreement that has not protected them and has allowed them to experience cuts far greater than those affecting any other teachers in the profession. This has given us a two-tier education system consisting of those who were employed as teachers before January 2011 and those who entered the profession afterwards. This inequality damages morale in the staff room and strikes at the spirit of collaboration that is crucial for a good school system. It strikes at the principle of equality at the centre of our society. If we were to propose paying non-national teachers less than Irish teachers there might be uproar. If we were to propose paying teachers differently depending on their religious beliefs, many would be outraged. If we were to propose paying female teachers less than their male colleagues, that would make headlines around the world. Yet we have set aside a group of people, based not on qualifications and not on merit but simply on the dates of their contracts.
I believe the Government values excellence, partnership and equality, but these cuts strike right at the heart of all these principles and risk causing lasting damage to our school system. Everybody in this room believes in the education system. We want to spend our lives working in schools that we will send our children to in years to come. We are not looking for any special treatment or special consideration. I would be delighted if members said they would refuse to treat us differently from anybody else in the system. We are happy to provide the best education we can for Ireland's young people, do everything with the available resources and take our fair share of the cuts. All we ask in return is that we are treated on an equal basis with any other teacher in the system.
We will now take questions.
I join with the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Andrew Bates and his colleagues, Mr. Ciaran Reade and Ms Yvonne Rossiter. I had the opportunity of engaging with them previously in the audiovisual room in Leinster House when they outlined the difficulties and challenges facing new entrants to the teaching profession.
Mr. Bates outlined clearly the new scenario for people entering the profession. One of the well-made points raised by Mr. Bates was the Government decision to suspend all allowances payable to new entrants to the teaching profession. He used the word "disincentivise". There needs to be ongoing professional development in any profession, and there must be an incentive. In teaching in particular, ongoing professional development was undertaken in the network of education centres established in the past decade throughout the country. Nowadays, technology makes it possible to have a better spread and easier access to ongoing professional development. There must be an incentive to participate in ongoing professional development. That is important. As trends change, the demands on the profession change and all aspects of the profession change as well. I think Mr. Bates made the point very well. I compliment the members of the group on taking the initiative in outlining their concerns in a positive way. The Minister for Education and Skills and the Government also face challenges in regard to public expenditure.
The group made an interesting submission. I have met student teachers who are in a similar position.
It is correct to say we are creating a two-tier system. The salaries of newly appointed teachers have been cut at a time when people are under severe pressure. Many from Mr. Bates's generation have never experienced anything similar to what is happening now. That creates a difficulty. Many of us have raised the issue of the impact it will possibly have on upskilling. The Minister suggests we will see the impact in October when we find out how many people have signed up for postgraduate courses. We will be able to inform the delegates of the outcome of research into the impact of disincentives. It is disastrous. It will dumb down the profession. Traditionally, high achievers chose to become teachers. Not all entering the profession are in their twenties. People may decide to change career at a later stage in life. Some newly qualified teachers have young families and mortgages and now they must manage on €500 a week. I do not know how a young teacher will be able to pay for accommodation, travel etc. on that salary. It must be reversed.
Are the delegates aware that teachers choose not to improve their skills because of money? Would they favour a loan system to allow them to study at postgraduate level? Is that a step too far for people on the new entrant salary? Have the newly qualified teachers been in discussions with the unions and are they confident the unions will campaign to eliminate the two-tier system? This will affect not only salaries but also pensions. People will pay more into their pensions than they will receive when they reach pension age. The system seems to be penalising those entering the profession rather than supporting their development.
I compliment the group members on their excellent presentation. It was concise and clear. I fully agree with the arguments they made on the core issue of excellence. It is ironic that they have followed the Teaching Council. The Teaching Council is trying to raise standards, looking at excellence and trying to improve the role of teachers. Yet this group has highlighted the decisions that could act as a disincentive for people to achieve qualifications that enhance the teaching profession.
The real issue is equal pay for equal work. To decide a pay scale based on the date of a contract, in my view, could not possibly stand up. I question the role of the teachers' unions in standing over such a scenario in the teaching profession, where differences in pay exist on the basis of dates of contracts. I know a review is on the way, and I hope the problem will be resolved in a positive way following the review. I also hope this issue is being addressed in discussions on the Croke Park agreement with the teachers' unions.
I thank the delegation for appearing before the joint committee. They have given us a concise and serious overview of the situation. The presentation and the way the arguments were put forward showed that they are only asking for equality of treatment. They are willing to put their shoulders to the wheel. They are aware of the sacrifices that everybody in the public sector and in the wider society has had to make. It is crucial, following on from the conversation we had with the Teaching Council, to bring new and innovative ideas to teaching. As much as we need those with experience in the classroom, as in every profession we need new blood coming through with new and innovative ideas and different ways of doing things. A disincentive that prevents the best and the brightest from getting involved in teaching must be considered seriously.
I take some hope from the fact that although the qualifications allowances have been suspended, there is an ongoing review. From my perspective as a Government Deputy, I will keep the pressure on the Ministers for Education and Skills and Public Expenditure and Reform and the entire Government to have the review carried out as quickly as possible. It would be rather ludicrous if the State was to tell its teachers that it does not want them to upskill and that it does not recognise the benefit of upskilling.
I do not want to be too critical of unions, but I think they should look after all of their members rather than focusing on those who are currently in classrooms, whose pay has been protected and are continuing to receive their increments. I do not favour the slashing of increments or the reduction of pay levels. However, it seems rather ironic that people who are continuing to receive a full salary and benefit from increments are not being as vociferous on this issue as they could be. A mechanism is open to the unions through the Croke Park structure, to which the witnesses have alluded, to make a strong case on behalf of young teachers. I thank the witnesses for engaging with us.
I apologise for missing the witnesses' presentation. I have a copy of it. Some of us had to vote on the constitutional convention in the Seanad. We will have to go again soon to hear the Taoiseach's address to the Seanad. I am unable to give the witnesses the time I would like to give them. I do not know if they were in attendance when we spoke to representatives of the Teaching Council. I raised the issue of student teachers being unemployed while retired teachers are brought back into schools. I have a bee in my bonnet about that practice. I do not think it is fair. They have enough. They have their retirement pensions. They chose to retire and they should stay retired. They should let new teachers take those jobs. It is absolutely terrible that 1,100 retired teachers were brought back to supervise State exams. One does not even have to be a teacher to do that. There are many unemployed teachers out there. I am familiar with the case of a girl who worked prior to January 2011 but was paid by the school rather than by the Department. She is caught in a trap because that time is not taken into consideration. Her wages have been greatly reduced because of that. I would like to know whether substitute teachers are paid by the teacher whose absence is being covered. Is that how it works, or are they paid by the Department? Does that time count when panels are being drawn up, etc.? I thank the witnesses for taking the time to come in to speak to us.
Like Senator Moloney, I apologise for missing the presentation. I have highlighted the employment of retired teachers, which was mentioned by the Senator, in the Seanad on several occasions in the last week. I have been in contact with many student groups and student teachers on that issue. I am aware that 1,100 retired teachers were taken back to supervise State exams. I understand that 742 newly-qualified and unemployed teachers applied for those positions. Do the witnesses know of any student teachers who applied for supervision positions but were not employed as supervisors of State exams? As a former teacher who supervised State exams in the past, I am aware that younger or more recently qualified teachers are often the first to be let go when fewer teachers are needed for these purposes. Such teachers might get three or four days' supervision work, whereas more established or older teachers might be kept on until the very end of the month of June. That can make a big difference when one is trying to get on the education ladder.
Would the witnesses like to respond to that? Perhaps they can also make some concluding remarks.
Mr. Ciaran Reade
The question of industry expertise within the education system has been mentioned on a number of occasions today. New teachers and people entering the system will be required to start on a salary of €27,000 and will also be affected by the suspension of allowances. If the postgraduate diploma is extended to two years, as suggested by the Teaching Council, someone who wishes to transfer into the system will have to take the equivalent of two years of unpaid leave rather than one at present. That, in addition to the reduced salary on offer, will discourage people from transferring from industry to the education system. The €27,000 salary is the best case scenario. Senator Daly mentioned earlier that the profession has become totally casualised. It is now a matter of hours. A new teacher would be lucky to get full-time hours in order to receive the full €27,000. Most new teachers will receive fewer hours and be paid a proportionately smaller salary. Deputy Harris asked about the ongoing review. We were originally told it would be published in March, but that date was changed to mid-June. At present, young teachers are attending interviews and signing contracts without knowing what salaries they will receive. We have no idea of what we will be paid in September, or when the review will be published so that it becomes public knowledge.
Ms Yvonne Rossiter
I would like to respond to the question Senator Moran asked about exam supervision. As the class representative for our year in Trinity College, I know of cases of students who were not appointed as exam supervisors because that work was given to other teachers in the school.
Did they apply?
Ms Yvonne Rossiter
They did.
Mr. Ciaran Reade
I applied and was refused.
Ms Yvonne Rossiter
There have been many such cases in addition to Mr. Reade's case.
Mr. Ciaran Reade
In my case, I applied to supervise the State examinations.
I feel it is not good enough. We will have to take it up with the Department. The Teaching Council has said it is not responsible for employment. We can pursue the matter on behalf of the student teachers.
Mr. Ciaran Reade
Brilliant.
We will get some details from the witnesses after the meeting.
I thank the witnesses for taking the time to appear before the joint committee and for making their presentation. I propose that we send a transcript of today's meeting to the Minister, accompanied by a covering letter setting out the issues that have been raised, expressing support for the witnesses' views and asking the Minister to respond to their concerns. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I think it is an excellent suggestion. I think we should mention the timeframe for the review and emphasise that it has not been published. I agree with Mr. Reade that it is ridiculous that people should have to go for interviews without knowing how much they are likely to be paid.
Okay.
It might also be appropriate to send a letter on the matter to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
We can do that.
The Minister has said it might be October before we get some sense of the impact these changes will have on postgraduates. We need to keep an eye on that as we manage our calendar. If he cannot come in here to discuss this issue, we should be calling on him to make a statement on it in the Dáil.
Is the Deputy referring to the issue of the reform of-----
I am referring to the changes to the funding of postgraduate courses that the Minister is talking about making. There is a belief that many teachers will decide not to acquire further skills. We will have a sense of whether that is the case in October because we will know whether people have made applications. If the number of applications has decreased significantly, it will indicate that there is a crisis in the system. It needs to be kept under review.
Okay. We have agreed to send a transcript of this meeting to the Minister, accompanied by a letter raising these issues, expressing support for the witnesses' views on them and asking for a response. We will examine the reform of teacher education in more detail in the autumn with a review to compiling a report on the matter. I thank our guests and the members of the committee. I thank the clerk to the committee, Mr. Colm Downey, Ms Susan Moran and the recording staff for their help during this session.