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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 23 May 2023

Education Needs of Visually Impaired Students: Discussion

We are now in session one. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the witnesses from the National Council for the Blind in Ireland: Mr. Aaron Mullaniff, chief services officer; Ms Toni O'Dwyer, manager of children and young persons service; and Ms Edel Doherty , senior practitioner, children and young persons service. The witnesses are here today to discuss the education needs of visually impaired and hard-of-hearing students. The Council of Irish Sign Language Interpreters was invited to the meeting but cannot attend due to conflicting work demands. The council submitted a written submission and an education policy paper published by the Irish Deaf Society. Both documents will be available on the Oireachtas website after the meeting today. I will invite Mr. Mullaniff to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members. Due to time constraints, each member has a five-minute slot to ask questions and to include witnesses' responses. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on the website following the meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I thank the members for extending the opportunity to the National Council for the Blind of Ireland, NCBI, to present to the committee on matters pertaining to the education needs of students who are blind or vision impaired.

NCBI is a for-purpose organisation working with 18,500 people who are blind or vision impaired across the entire age spectrum and continuum of vision loss. Our mission is to provide a range of supports to enable people who are blind or vision impaired to overcome the barriers that impede their independence and participation in society. In recent years, NCBI pivoted to a lifecycle model of service delivery and developed a dedicated children and young persons team to improve outcomes for young people who are blind or vision impaired, whose low rates of participation in further and higher education and employment continue to be of concern.

At present, blind and vision impaired students make up the smallest cohort of all students with disabilities in higher and further education. NCBI believes that students who are blind or vision impaired are transitioning through education without the prerequisite skills, competencies and knowledge required to make a success of this major life transition alongside with their peers. This experience is most likely in line with evidence from the US and the UK showing that such students take significantly longer than their peers to achieve a third level qualification following graduation from second level education. Students who are blind or vision impaired are more likely to undertake a degree in the arts, the humanities or business than the general student population and are half as likely to complete a degree in science, technology, engineering or maths, the so-called skills of the future.

Access to learning and learning to access are the two cornerstones of a successful education experience for students who are blind and vision impaired. However, there are ongoing challenges in the Irish education system impeding such access. In terms of access to learning, the availability of accessible curriculum materials is an ongoing issue for students. For example, getting access to accessible versions of textbooks in the correct format can take months. Additionally, access to learning materials in class is frequently cited by students as a major cause of stress throughout their educational experience. Reduced independent access to materials results in an unnecessary dependency on others if such students are to be able to engage in their own education.

Such was NCBI’s concern at the lack of timely, accessible curriculum for students who are blind and vision impaired that it sought to develop Bookshare Ireland in late 2019. Bookshare Ireland is now the largest accessible library in Ireland with over 1.1 million titles in a variety of accessible digital formats available free of charge to all students with print disabilities, including students who are blind or vision impaired. These titles cover the majority of schoolbooks on the curriculum in Ireland. Bookshare Ireland is now the go-to platform where publishers can send their files securely and through which students with all forms of print disability can access their requested titles instantaneously and without any delay. It is estimated that one in ten students in Ireland has a print disability. It is vital that the Department and the Minister for Education provide recurring annual funding to NCBI to allow Bookshare Ireland to continue to offer instant access to schoolbooks in a format that suits the individual student.

Learning to access is equally important as it is the key to independent learning. However, successfully accessing learning independently is dependent on the availability of the required assistive technology and the development of a skill set to manage learning materials and environment with ease and efficiency. The current lack of focus in this area in education results in students transitioning through education without the foundations of independent learning. It must be noted that 75% of all blind and vision impaired people in Ireland are not working. If young adults are not working by the time they are 30, they are more likely to never work at all. This is too much untapped potential.

Notwithstanding what I have just said, NCBI is aware of many examples of students with blindness or vision impairment for whom the experience in education was positive, supportive and inclusive. We also know that it is down to the dedication of the teachers and parents who facilitated this positive experience. However, NCBI is also aware that many students find participation in education a difficult and isolating experience. One student who articulated her experience to NCBI very well described how “poor and ill-informed attempts at inclusion excluded me far more than my disability ever did”.

NCBI fully recognises that blindness and vision impairment is a low-incidence, high-needs disability where students frequently require an intensive and supplementary vision-specific curriculum. Special support not only entails supporting students to access the standard academic curriculum, but also ensuring that they are taught a range of independent learning, mobility, everyday living and social skills. Combined, these are internationally known as the expanded core curriculum which Ireland has yet to formally acknowledge or support.

One of the more positive developments in recent years has been the inclusion of all students with disabilities in accessing summer provision. It presents a huge opportunity, despite the additional burden of required learning across the school year, allowing time for students to develop the additional compensatory skills they need, for example, critical learning opportunities, to participate in orientation and mobility training and digital skills training in assistive technology. However, due to the way in which the scheme operates, most students who are blind or vision impaired are unable to avail of it.

Despite the inclusion of a broad independence and quality of life focus and a curriculum for children with special educational needs in NCSE and Department of Education policy, NCBI experience is that this is not consistently provided to students who are blind and vision impaired. As stated, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD, inclusive education is every student's right. It is not a privilege.

NCBI has a duty of care to represent students who are blind or vision impaired and share our experience and knowledge to ensure appropriate supports are available for students to reach their full potential. As one student in third level stated so succinctly, "I didn't know what I didn't know until it was too late - I had to take a year out as I was struggling so bad ... I just wish I was more prepared". This example cannot continue to be the experience of blind and vision impaired students in Ireland.

The witnesses are very welcome. It is a privilege to hear directly from them and the experience of students going through our education system who have the challenge of being visually impaired or blind. I have some specific questions. I might group them together and if the witnesses could come back with their observations, that would be fantastic.

Mr. Mullaniff described inclusive and accessible education as being low incidence but high need. What does inclusive and accessible education look like? What are the primary asks of the NCBI from the Department in that regard? In a similar vein, what resources are available for teachers through training programs for qualification courses?

Mr. Mullaniff spoke of Bookshare funding and the need for recurring annual funding. What is the current funding that is provided? What is the funding model? Is it multi-annual or is an application required every year? What does it entail?

Mr. Mullaniff also spoke of barriers to STEM. What are those barriers? I know from experience of one school that applied for a technological grant for a child who was visually impaired and was refused because the criteria were laden down in bureaucracy and red tape. The school was caught between a rock and hard place. The child needed the technology, but on paper there was a statement made that they did not need it enough, even though it was obvious from the school's perspective that it would have been a tremendous resource to them.

Mr. Mullaniff made a brief statement on waiting months to have something provided. What is going on there? That is very concerning. If he can address those questions, that would be brilliant.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I might take one or two of those questions and then bring in my colleagues, Ms O'Dwyer and Ms Doherty. In terms of the asks, from an access to learning perspective we are looking for recurring funding for Bookshare Ireland. The cost of running Bookshare Ireland was €466,000 in 2023. There are currently 2,630 students on the platform and there is no recurring funding whatsoever in place.

I will tie in the other asks, if that is okay. From a learning to access perspective, we are looking at having dedicated staffing in place to support the consistent assessment and development of skills, specifically in the areas of digital competency or assistive technology and orientation and mobility skills.

There is a request around ensuring that summer provision is tailored to the specific needs of blind or vision-impaired children in terms of where they are at so that it is delivered in a valued-added way. We are also looking at the transition year project and the importance of transitioning. We know that only half of kids transition between second level and third level. When supports are pulled away, kids hit the proverbial cliff. Ms Doherty has been doing brilliant work, which I am sure she will speak to shortly, around the comprehensive planning and meaningful transition opportunities that are required in that regard.

There probably needs to be a broader understanding of the importance of the expanded core curriculum. Blind or vision-impaired kids, as a result of their disabilities, have a reduced opportunity to learn incidentally by observing others. During a child's early years, 90% of learning is incidental – emotional, social and physical development. If there is no early intervention, there are delays in those.

I might ask Ms O'Dwyer to answer the Deputy's question on inclusive education.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

I thank the Deputy for her question. To know what inclusive and accessible education looks like, we need to understand the issues. I will outline them briefly.

Access to a curriculum for a child who cannot do it through vision means access to books in an alternative format. It has been the reality for years that children who require books in an alternative format can wait months or even years for them. We have recent examples of students who received books once they had finished the cycle – someone received in transition year his books that should have been available for his junior cycle. This means he received his books three years late. I do not know of any other cohort of children in education that wait months or years to get the books that they rely on to access their education.

The other strand is accessing class materials. Education has changed considerably in recent years, with many teachers now relying on handouts in class. The experience of the students we deal with is that these handouts are frequently in inaccessible formats. It is not a big job or rocket science to make a handout accessible. Instead of taking a picture of the board or a screen, a teacher could send it in a Word document. This is how simply access can be achieved, yet children have to go into school and advocate for themselves in this regard day in and day out. The social and educational cost of that for children is extremely high.

Access to the board is a significant issue. Children do not like those pieces of technology that make them stand out as being different. What they want is access to mainstream technologies. There are straightforward solutions, for example screen sharing, that can give children access without making them stand out as being different. These solutions make technology more acceptable to students with vision impairments.

The last point I will make on inclusive and accessible education is about timetabling. Due to issues with timetabling, many children get their additional resources on subjects that are not their primary ones or their greatest needs in order to fit into timetables that are already chock-a-block with all the additional pieces that students with vision impairment require.

Those are all the-----

I thank Ms O'Dwyer, but we have quite a few-----

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

Sorry.

It is fine. It is helpful at the start, as it gives us a great deal of information. Would either of the other witnesses like to make a brief comment?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will ask Ms Doherty to answer the question on STEM briefly.

Ms Edel Doherty

Many STEM subjects, particularly maths, chemistry and physics, are very visual by their nature.

A lot of our students are having difficulty with maths in particular. Ms O'Dwyer referred to how they may not be getting additional support, where they are having difficulty, due to that visual nature. Their career choices are limited from the point where they make their choices for senior cycle in transition year. Alternatively, they may be dropping a level because they do not have that support. They might be dropping to foundation level maths, which straight away is going to reduce their access.

Their options.

Ms Edel Doherty

Their options, yes.

I welcome Mr. Mullaniff, Ms Doherty and Ms O'Dwyer. It is important we have the opportunity to have this type of engagement with them. I am conscious that the NCBI looks after 18,500 people within the cohort around the country. Reading their statement and submission, I wonder how many of those are in the category we are now looking at, when it comes to primary, secondary and third level education. It was mentioned that of those who go on to higher education two thirds do arts and only one third go on to STEM. That is obviously a challenge. One of the statistics stated that 75% of people who are blind or visually impaired are not working. That has to be a huge concern. I am also a member of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters. It is something that rears its head all of the time there, in terms of a group of people who have so much potential and so much to offer. They are people who want to live independent lives and have their own salary. Will the witnesses speak to that a little more? Is there is a geographical disparity in the availability of resources throughout the country? Do we have that postcode lottery we often talk about in the context of disability? I congratulate the NCBI on the Bookshare Ireland initiative. It sounds great and certainly deserves support. Finally, I was not clear about the summer provision scheme. What would need to be done in terms of accessibility that could be helpful to those represented by the NCBI?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I thank Senator O'Loughlin. I will take the same format again and then bring my colleagues in. In terms of high-level figures, there are about 4,000 children of schoolgoing age in Ireland living with severe visual impairment and blindness. We only have that number as it is indicated on the census. That is what we are working with. We are getting to one in three. That is a national perspective and is down to our own resource shortages. That is not saying everybody needs our service but we would like to be able to offer it to everybody. That 1,300 is split up in terms of the work of the children and young persons team right across primary, post-primary and higher and further education. Within higher and further education, I mentioned that blind and vision-impaired students make up the smallest cohort. We have watched other disability groups increase their participation but last year, we saw a small fall and blind and vision-impaired students make up 1.8% of all students. That is about 233 according to the Association for Higher Education Access and Disability, AHEAD, figures. Again, we are looking at higher rates of attrition and drop-out back to the accessible curriculum. Students are going all the way through their education without their books and unfortunately, in higher and further education there are many more books, and many more courses of study. If we cannot get it right in primary school, where there is a quite rigid curriculum that does not change very often, it is a nightmare when it comes to higher and further education. We see this day in and day out.

I will speak about employment before I bring in my colleagues. The fact is that there are more blind and vision-impaired people on long-term sick leave or who are too disabled to work than there are in employment. Last month, the European Disability Forum described Ireland as leading the hall of shame, by having the lowest number of people with disabilities in employment. When we talk about one in four participating in the labour force, we know that a significant number of blind and vision-impaired people are trying to get their first job.

That piece around the idea that if some one is not working by the time he or she is 30, one is likely never to work as well, is a challenge. On the geographic role which is played by how resources are allocated across the country, from a support perspective I might bring Ms O'Dwyer in regarding the key providers, and then come back to Ms Doherty on summer provision.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

Regarding geographical disparities, the main one I would identify is where the Department of Education funds orientation and mobility services in three counties, and has done for over 15 years. Yet that service, which is a core skill for students in terms of independent travel, is not funded through the Department of Education. The other key players in service provision are the visiting teachers through the NCSE.

Ms Edel Doherty

Regarding summer provision, we were delighted to be included in that for our children from 2020, but there has been a lack of clarity among parents, and a lack of understanding of how the scheme will work for those. What we are seeing and hearing from the parents and children is that it is not tailored specifically. Those children need to learn specific skills. It is not generic access, so it needs to be specific, and there is a lack of understanding around how can provide that. Ms O'Dwyer may want to say something on summer provision and access.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

I would like to compliment the Department on that initiative. It is a fabulous initiative to support children with disabilities. Unfortunately, children with visual impairment are disadvantaged in that the competency is not there to support them. If a child needs support in Braille through summer provision, we do not have Braille teachers across the country. We do not have people who can teach orientation and mobility. Finally, for an agency to do it, there is the requirement right now that it needs to be registered with Tusla. We are not registered with Tusla, but we qualify under HSE service level agreements, SLAs. We are similar, but we are excluded because of that one criterion.

I thank the witnesses and Senator O'Loughlin. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan is next, followed by Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. One of the points Ms O'Dwyer made is that the big obstacle which children who are visually impaired face regarding the education system is trying to access the curriculum. She mentioned that the reason for that is that they cannot avail of books in an alternative format. When she refers to books in an alternative format, are they audiobooks, books in Braille, or what specific is it?

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

Large print, Braille and audio.

Can they be accessed at present through Bookshare Ireland? Is that a mechanism of getting them promptly, or is that a different scheme?

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

It is similar. At the moment, Braille books are not available through that. It is also a digital platform. Some children, particularly younger children, still prefer to have the hard copy version, be it Braille or large print, and that has been problematic.

Regarding the books in Braille, who is the publisher? Are they published in Ireland, or how does a child gain access to them?

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

They are published by a normal publisher, and then they are reformatted and printed in Braille.

I am conscious that for a child to access the curriculum, they have to be able to read and understand Braille. I am sorry for my ignorance here, but who teaches the child Braille?

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

Not at all. NCBI supports the child in early year in terms of free Braille skills, and then the visiting teacher has responsibility for teaching in education. It is worth noting that the number of visiting teachers here is extremely low, compared to international rates. Their time is limited.

With regard to training teachers for Braille, is it a case of a person who themselves is visually impaired then progressing to become a teacher of Braille for younger people? I am thinking of people who teach Braille to younger children. How do they get trained in that? Is it because they themselves had a visual impairment and they learned it? Is that how they became expert in it?

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

No. It is a qualified teacher who then goes on to gain the qualification in the area of visual impairment, so they learn Braille as part of that additional qualification for a visiting teacher role.

Mr. Mullaniff included a quote from a child who is visually impaired on the second page of his opening submission. The child said that "poor and ill-informed attempts at inclusion excluded me far more than my disability ever did". It might be difficult for our guests to read into what that child is saying but I interpret it to mean that there are well-motivated efforts to try to promote inclusion but they simply have not been of any benefit to the child. I ask our guests to elaborate, if they can, on what is meant by the child.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will ask Ms Doherty to elaborate, without giving names.

Ms Edel Doherty

It is open to interpretation but sometimes the solution offered might be to sit at the front of the classroom. For children, that can be an absolutely terrible solution because they excluded from their peers, from the back of the class or from wherever they want to sit in the classroom. Telling children to sit at the front so that they will see things better can mean they can go through their whole educational experience not being included in groups or not sitting at the back. There is that isolation piece. Another issue is the technology, which is big and awkward. The size of the technology is a problem. Children want to use mainstream technology and do not want to stand out from their peers. They are excluded by having to have a bigger desk, for example, and having to use larger pieces of technology. The attempts at inclusion are-----

Ms Edel Doherty

Yes.

How have children who are visually impaired or blind coped with the leaving certificate? If they can get through the curriculum, is the exam satisfactory at present?

Ms Edel Doherty

It is really difficult for them. When they are choosing their subjects, they do not have access to modified previous exam papers. They do not have access to those and so they actually do not know sometimes the questions that are going to be asked. There is a lot of unknowns for them building up to the leaving certificate. There is additional pressure on them. The whole race and the accommodations provided need an overhaul because students are not part of that process. Their voices are not being heard as part of that process. It is incredibly stressful for them to get to that point.

In terms of the incidence of children who are visually impaired going on to study humanities in third level as opposed to STEM subjects, is that predominantly due to an inability to access the curriculum at third level?

Ms Edel Doherty

Yes, absolutely.

There is no reason a person who is visually impaired would be any less proficient in mathematics than others.

Ms Edel Doherty

Absolutely, it is solely down to access.

How are the third level institutions doing in respect of that?

Ms Edel Doherty

There is a variation across the institutions but generally speaking, because of the low incidence, many have not have had much experience with visually impaired students previously. They may be depending on the students themselves to come up with solutions.

I thank our guests for what has been a really fascinating discussion. I read the opening statements and have listened to the conversation, which has been eye-opening, to be honest. It has been really interesting. One of the issues I had looked at was the equitable education report, which was discussed earlier. That report stated that there are 4,700 visually impaired children of school-going age and about 280 in higher education. Has there been any significant change on that front?

An issue that popped up today is that of access for third level students to accommodation. It was covered widely in various media this morning. Would it be fair to assume that there are greater difficulties for visually impaired or blind students? We heard on the radio this morning that some students have to do a lot of commuting, often by taking a number of different buses. In some cases, the trip can take two and half hours each way. Do the witnesses have experience in that regard and are there specific supports available for students?

Another issue of interest in the opening statement is that of assistive technology and how it can play a key role for students. I hear what is being said in terms of some students preferring textbooks in Braille and that is totally understandable.

We are seeing a greater use of devices such as tablets in schools. I am interested in hearing if the witnesses feel there are certain kinds of aids or technologies that could really make a direct impact in students' lives.

I am also interested in the distributional effect. Is that a result of students having access because their parents are able to afford it or they have access through charitable organisations? As a result, are people from a lower socioeconomic background placed at a greater disadvantage?

One point that very much stood out for me, which I did not know, is the statistic on access to work, namely, that 75% of people who are blind or visually impaired are not working. I am 33 years old so the reference to those over 30 being less likely to ever work came as a shock. What can we as legislators do to ensure that changes? That is what we are here for; to be able to change legislation to facilitate that.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I thank Deputy Farrell. I might take one or two of those questions and then divide the others up.

There has been some change in the statistics. We have been following the national access plan in higher and further education and there are about 100 more students participating, which is really positive and great. The NCBI itself has gone out to incentivise those transitioning into higher and further education. We created a bursary and we have supported between 14 and 16 students to date with the additional costs. They have to take more taxis and buy assistive technology so there is an increased burden. On top of that, the cost of disability report identified that the additional burden of living is between €10,000 and €13,000 for blind and visually impaired people. They are facing all those costs. The minimum essential standard of living report also highlighted the same costs on a day-to-day basis.

Is the figure of €10,000 to €13,000 a yearly one?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

Yes, it is per year. There has been some improvement, which we think is really positive. We commend it. We did a little bit of work with the Minister, Deputy Harris, on that piece as well. The figures have been pretty static, which we would expect through primary and post-primary.

I might just back to the employment piece and then bring in my colleagues. That figure is really frightening when we strip it back in terms of the number of blind and visually impaired people in employment.

In terms of some of the challenges we have encountered, we are aware that 95% of the world's printed information is inaccessible to blind and visually impaired people. We have been doing a lot. We developed an employment training and academia team. We are not funded to do that, but following on from the work in the children and young persons' team, we need to ensure that there is no cliff when kids leave education at 23. We must ensure there is something to talk about when they go to interviews. We have partnered with 26 organisations from a workplace partners' perspective. They have been wonderful. They provide professional experience to those students as well. We have had to set up a dedicated digital equality unit which is looking at websites as well. We found from a study of all of the 600 recruiters in the country that 90% of their websites are inaccessible. In other words, people who are blind or visually impaired cannot apply for a job on them because the buttons are not labelled and there is no basic accessibility either.

There is an interesting statistic that a blind or visually impaired person who makes it through higher and further education still only has the same chances of getting a job as someone who has no qualifications at all. It is really frightening. I will bring in my colleague, Ms O'Dwyer, on assistive technology, tablets, and the aids and various devices that are in play at the moment.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

In terms of assistive technology, along with the general trends in technology, mainstream technology is what students with visual impairment are seeking to use. The accessibility on those devices makes it possible for that to happen. There is much greater use of technology in education now, to the benefit of the students.

Access and grants do not tend to be a difficulty. Assistive technology is well funded. What is at issue is the functional assessment prior to a device being given and the follow-on training that is required. That is of huge significance. It lends itself in particular to the process of learning to access. If children are not able to use the device to access information efficiently, they will not be able to compete with their peers.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I am conscious of time but I might comment on the importance of buses and longer journeys. We are seeing this across the country. We cannot underestimate the importance of mobility and independent mobility. We are in the business of getting people safely from A to B. It is a huge challenge for us and we have significant waitlists. There is a little bit of a patchwork quilt in how funding is operating at the moment. It is only funded in the South in terms of resourcing. It is so important because it becomes an indicator of employability. When someone finally gets a job they need to be able to leave their house to get to work. That piece is particularly important for children and young people and that is where summer provision and the expanded core curriculum come in as well.

I welcome the witnesses. I am conscious that we are tight for time so I might just fire questions and take advantage of the witnesses being here. Previous Deputies spoke about resources supplied to the NCBI. Mr. Mullaniff mentioned that there are resource shortages. Could he clarify what they are specifically? Is it funding, staffing or both? He also mentioned visiting teachers. Is there a disparity there if someone is in the north of the country, the south, east or west? Is there a shortfall in those teachers? Are the vacancies regional or is it just that they are spread too thin and there are not enough positions, full stop? I am assuming many students, thankfully, do the leaving certificate and I hope the majority, if not all, progress to third level. What is the fall-off from second to third level? Once these students reach third level, what is the attrition rate comparative to all other students? Are they well above the average in terms of attrition and drop-outs from college?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I might take the first question. Resourcing has become a major stumbling block for our organisation. It is important that the committee knows that every day, 18 people begin to lose their sight in Ireland. If trends stay the way they are, one in five people in this room will be impacted by visual impairment at some point in their lifetime. Every 80 minutes someone begins to lose their sight. As an organisation, we have not been able to increase our funding in the previous 12 years, which is really worrying. The State gives about €125 for every person living with severe blindness and vision impairment in the country to NCBI in the form of a core grant. It is important that we put that on the record today because we are looking to do more around that piece.

Before I bring in Ms O'Dwyer, I want to acknowledge that the rate of referrals to our organisation is increasing year on year. We now have staff in the eye clinics so we are at the point of diagnosis. We are meeting day-old babies where previously we would not have been doing that. We have become really successful at that. At one point, it could take three and a half years for a child or young person to find their way to our services. Early intervention is so important in that regard. Now they are coming through when those kids are very small and we are being effective at that. We need to look at that whole piece from a funding and resource perspective.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

On the visiting teachers, I do not see a geographic disparity generally, unless there is a vacancy that takes a while to fill. The NCSE does not have a pool of trained teachers from which to fill vacancies so there can be delays. Visiting teachers are trained in the UK and are generally trained while they are operating. The interesting piece here is the comparative between us and the UK. The caseload of a visiting teacher here is approximately 100 while in the UK it is 50. There are ten times more visiting teachers in the UK than here. That service is still under significant pressure. The NCBI matches the visiting teacher service in terms of resources so us working together makes absolute sense.

Is there any course here in Ireland through which visiting teachers can be trained?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

No.

I will defer to Ms Doherty on what she knows on trends.

Ms Edel Doherty

With regard to the transition from second level to third level, we were starting to see more students getting into third level, but also more students having to repeat a year, getting stuck or dropping out. We looked back and set up a transition year project three years ago, to bring in students from across the country and give them the skills they miss in the curriculum as it stands, which is points based or just about getting to the leaving certificate. We focused on additional skills for students such as orientation; mobility; learning to use their equipment properly and learning self-advocacy and all those different skills they needed, so that they would be better able to cope with the transition to third level. It has been a considerable success in that sense. However, we are only just at the start of that process of identifying what is happening with the students at that level, to give them the skills to be able to get through third level and beyond.

I have allowed leniency, because it is important to allow people to continue with their train of thought and it is helpful to members who come in later. This is the first meeting of the committee I have chaired and I apologise for stumbling over a name at the start. I was reading verbatim from my notes. My grandmother volunteered with the NCBI for upwards of 30 years. The organisation is very close to my heart. Many really positive contributions were made today, but the discussion shows the shocking reality for those who are blind and visually impaired. I will follow on from some of the comments Deputy Farrell made, in that we have not touched on that piece around accessibility. I have certainly been to other countries in the past while, where one can see people with disabilities out in the streets and going to their workplaces. That bit about getting from A to B is critical. We do not get that right, or certainly have not done so up until now in this country. I am keen to hear about other countries that get it right, especially from the point of view of STEM. The shocking reality is that the only reason people are not going into STEM is because we are not making it accessible for them.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will preface my answer. We talk about vision impairment and blindness being low incidence. The first time that vision impairment and blindness came to the fore in this country was when Covid happened and the concept of social distancing came in. Many blind and visually impaired people would, from time to time, depend on a guide to be able to get them safely out of their house or home and to the shops, mass or to do the basics and suddenly that was gone. We had to produce our first campaign, in partnership with the HSE, on being mindful of blind and vision-impaired people. There were issues and challenges around that, right up to trying to stand in a supermarket without breaching someone's two metre social distance. We had reported assaults and other issues. Blindness and vision impairment are hidden disabilities, which is a challenge in itself. We need to do more, both as an organisation and a State, to highlight some of the inherent challenges that come with those disabilities. I will ask Ms O'Dwyer to speak about other organisations that are doing it quite well, with regard to STEM.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

The main improvements to reference in STEM are in the United States and the UK, where there is considerable focus on STEM. The same issues are to be seen throughout the world - not necessarily just in Ireland - but the solutions are much farther ahead in other countries. Our failure is to learn from the improvements they are making. Believe me; they do not hide them. The information is readily available, but our system is slow to move to introduce those changes. An individualised approach is needed to support students who need compensatory access and cannot use vision to access details, such as diagram information, that are not accessible through Braille either. The number of children is not considerable and therefore the approach does not require considerable resources. What it requires is the will to do it.

That is quite clear. Does anyone else wish to contribute before we move to a second round of questions?

Ms Edel Doherty

The only thing I would say is to listen to the student's voice, how he or she learns and what is helpful to him or her. That is key.

Regarding Ms Doherty's comments about how children are being asked to go to the front of the room, any of us with children would know how difficult and isolating that is for a child. All children have different personalities. Some like to advocate for themselves while others should not be put in that position. That is why we are here discussing policy and it also shows the importance of the NCBI.

Regarding the issues around the summer programme and access to the good old July provision, what additional challenges are there? If blind or visually impaired children are not participating in the school-based programme but instead are participating in the home-based programme, what additional challenges are they experiencing?

Regarding leaving certificate reform, has the NCBI had any engagement with the State Examinations Commission or the Department of Education? Has the input of the NCBI been sought regarding any reforms that are due?

A timely issue concerns the additional accommodations available for students coming up to the leaving certificate or junior certificate. A lot of students are focusing on the next few weeks. In terms of the accommodations that are available, what improvements need to be made for children who are blind? Examinations are very stressful for anybody but where there is an additional need, that stress can be compounded. What supports are available for visually impaired parents whose children are going through school?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will bring my colleagues in. I ask Ms Doherty to answer the question about summer provision while Ms O'Dwyer will take the question on leaving certificate reform.

Ms Edel Doherty

For parents, summer provision is a bit like what was quoted in the summary. Just like students, parents do not know what they do not know. A parent with the first experience of having a child with a visual impairment does not know what to expect and what the child needs so it is about it being tailored and having somebody who knows what the future looks like and is able to say, "These are the skills your child requires.", for example, with regard to Braille or technology but it must be specific to those additional requirements for a blind or visually impaired child so he or she can become efficient. The key there is efficiency for the child. There is a lack of understanding of that and a shortage of people to do that. That is a significant problem.

If I was a tutor for the July provision, where would I go to learn and upskill to work with blind or visually impaired children?

Ms Edel Doherty

There is no one size fits all because it is specific. It could be very different for a child with no vision compared to a child with some. It needs to be people who know the child and the parent. There is no wide knowledge of that.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

We have been engaged regarding leaving certificate reform. I will ask Ms O'Dwyer to speak about that.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

We are engaged on that piece through the Children's Rights Alliance, which I commend for its work on that. Our recommendations are broadly in line with what we have discussed today in terms of access requirements for students with visual impairment as they go through the leaving certificate cycle. We are quite involved there.

As Ms Doherty noted, there is such inconsistency and confusion regarding the leaving certificate accommodations or all examination accommodations for students with visual impairment. Our evidence would show that one student can get something while another cannot and there is no logic to or rationale as to why that decision has been made. The exclusion of students and their needs is key in terms of accommodations. I do not wish to look outside of Ireland all of the time but tremendous work has been done in the UK and the US regarding reasonable accommodations.

We should look outward in those instances.

I thank our guests for their contributions and Deputy O'Sullivan would like to come in again.

I was caught aback when I heard that we do not provide training here because I know, regarding our next speaker here, that there are provisions in universities to train people in Irish Sign Language, ISL. Has the NCBI liaised with universities about training? Has the NCBI ever sought the provision of a course to train people in this country as opposed to prospective teachers having to go abroad? How do we plan ahead? Are projections based on how many visiting teachers will be required? Is provision demand-led? How does the NCBI forward plan? I presume the NCBI would like to provide training inhouse rather than depend on other people providing training. I hope that I will get a chance to ask another question later.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will attempt to answer. It is not our role to analyse capacity planning from the perspective of visiting teachers. I would encourage the opportunity to have a closer working relationship with the Department of Education and, by default, the NCSE, where we would perhaps look at a service capacity review. We know that there are about 15 visiting teachers who work in this country supporting blind and vision impaired children but that number is not enough. Equally, we also know that we do not have a sufficient number of staff working across the children and young persons' team on that but we would welcome an opportunity to consider this matter in the future.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

I am not sure that we will ever have a critical mass of visiting teachers to justify training them in Ireland because I am not sure we would have that level of expertise in terms of training. So I agree with the current system of training people in the UK. We need to consider putting in additional capacity, that is, not necessarily expanding the visiting teacher service as it is but putting in supports to align with that or whatever other supports that are out there like the NCBI.

Earlier it was mentioned that approximately one third of all blind or visually impaired students access the services of the NCBI. Where does the remaining two thirds go for help?

Reference was made earlier to how there are difficulties with blind and visually-impaired students accessing the July or summer provision. Initially, there was provision for people in special classes and special schools, and then further down the criteria there is provision for people with disabilities, sensory impairment and so on. What are the difficulties?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will answer the first part of the Deputy's question. It is difficult for us to know, in terms of the one in three statistics on the access and reach piece, but the NCSE data are pretty analogous. As vision loss is a spectrum and 95% of children and young people have some useful vision or useful residual vision, which we support them to use and we do that piece really well, it may not always be the case that everyone will need our services or inputs. It would be great if we reached 100% of people but at some point we must accept that they do not know but the most important thing is that the families affected know that we are here to help.

My colleague, Ms Doherty, will answer the question about the difficulties with accessing summer provision.

Ms Edel Doherty

The difficulties are specifically down to the lack of available people who can deliver the programme in a way that is meaningful and beneficial to the child who is vision impaired. So a person needs to have vision impairment-specific knowledge in order to teach people. Summer is a perfect time of year and a perfect opportunity to go in with the additional skills but the biggest difficulty is the lack of available knowledge in that area.

I have another question on education. The NCBI is developing an accessibility transport training centre which is funded by the National Transport Authority, NTA.

What efforts will NCBI make to incorporate that into the school curriculum? That is not totally outside the discussion. It has a tenuous link to education.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

NCBI has prioritised the need to create a safe space for travel by train. The reality is that sometimes when you go into the outside environment and the LUAS doors are closing and you are working your long cane for the first time and people are gathering in and around you, to my earlier point, some people do not recognise that it is a long cane or what it represents or the status it gives. Sometimes it is a matter of confidence. You are constantly trying to build that confidence. We have been working with the National Transport Authority to secure on all forms of public transport, particularly rail, the creation of a safe space for travel. It would be open to everybody to use and would not be exclusive to blind or vision-impaired people or persons with disabilities. Society has a huge role to play. Creating more awareness of the access needs of people is really important, but equally important is looking at how we have moved away from a charity model to a different model that focuses on how societies and attitudes in society can often disable or how poor design can disable. We are therefore encouraging planners, architects and engineers to come in and work with us and with blind and vision-impaired people and persons with disabilities, who know best and who have the lived experience. Costly retrofitting should be avoided. The plan in the long term is that that new infrastructure and fleet would be disability-proofed. It is a very innovative initiative. It has not really been done or looked at before. We look forward to getting the doors of that open. It goes back to the importance of mobility.

Thank you for raising that.

Senator Flynn, would you like to come in briefly?

Sorry - I was at the Committee on Autism meeting. I am also a member of the disability committee.

For me, this is about the importance of having everybody participate in society and have equal access to education. This committee got to visit Ballyfermot College of Further Education a few weeks ago. I myself went to Ballyfermot College. I have not seen since or before then its level of support for people who are vision-impaired or blind or students who are deaf. We need to see that in every university, school and college in the country.

For me, one of the questions that is raised here is how many students at present in our universities or in higher education are vision-impaired or have visual issues. Do the witnesses know about that? Then how many of those students go on to seek employment? A lot of the time we can talk about the issues in education or what people have to deal with and getting those people supports. We need to be very ambitious as a society in that the more training we do, the more SNAs we will get in to be able to support students. On this committee we have done a lot of work around supporting SNAs because some of us know how critical it is to have that support for our students.

There are also the courses in Trinity College, say, for interpreting. How do we make that more approachable for people to access? I know that Ballyfermot College is doing a course on introduction to interpreting. That is so important. I myself would be interested in doing it someday, maybe. A cohort of people we leave behind are people who are visually impaired and their community. When I was running for the Seanad, there was a young man who was deaf and who was also trying to get a seat in Parliament. Even here, close to home, in Leinster House, we are not very friendly when it comes to people who are visually impaired or deaf. The Committee on Disability Matters has an interpreter who does sign language throughout all its meetings. We welcome that in the communications department, but we need to see more of it. We need to see the participation of people within society.

My question is how we would do that. I know it is a very broad question but in our education system and political system, and also in terms of employment, how do we bring about access? Again, in terms of education for the young child in primary school, where the teacher is not trained and people do not have the services, how do we give people access to the opportunity to be successful?

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

I will take the first questions. As to the data, we are working off the national access plan. We are looking at 233 students we know have blindness or vision impairment. Again, I should probably caveat that with the fact they have indicated to access officers that they have vision impairment or blindness. It is not always the case that students will actually declare, and that can sometimes be counter-productive. I also acknowledge that not every further education institution has an access officer who is working on a full-time basis and we might find there is one access officer covering multiple needs.

The figure is quite frightening when it comes to employment and the prospects are quite low. We talk about one in four, so 75% of blind or vision impaired people are not participating or are out of the labour force. When we strip it back to how many are in employment - we use the census for this data - we are looking at between 16% and 18%, which is frighteningly low. We are very conscious of that as an organisation. In the opening statement, we mentioned how we have had to pivot the entire organisation and all the services in the organisation around need. We have the children and young persons team looking at early intervention and transitions, and we now have an employment team.

I like the Senator’s Ballyfermot example and some great graduates have been produced from that programme. We have had to go out and create our own college, and that college is looking at employment skills. We have interpreted it at QQI framework level V and I think we are one of the first organisations to do this. That is looking at the concepts or indicators of employability, such as self-advocacy and digital skills. We are also looking at the opportunity to get involved and to carry out mock interviews with employers and our workplace partners, and that has been going very well.

On that point, NCBI got 46 blind and vision impaired people into employment last year and we saved some 140 jobs as well. Again, this is not the responsibility of the national sight loss agency but we have had to step into a space where we have become the solutions provider, and we have been quite successful at that piece.

In regard to how we generally try to ensure there is equality around opportunity for children across education, Ms O'Dwyer might speak on what we need to do more of.

Ms Toni O'Dwyer

The access issues and barriers that are there in primary and secondary apply across further and higher education and the same ones need to be addressed there. If I was very briefly to say what we need to do, I would say we need to move in regard to supports. Our supports are around building the skills of students with vision impairment as opposed to caring support because they have the ability to perform and we are not allowing them to do so. We sometimes mask this by putting supports around them rather than future-proofing them to have independent lives, which is what we need to focus on.

Thank you. As no other members are indicating, that brings the session to a conclusion. I thank all three of the witnesses for coming in today. It has been very useful and I know we will take on board of lot of what they have said today.

Mr. Aaron Mullaniff

If we were to put a proposal back to the committee, would it be something it would consider? I know there is a lot in that between Bookshare and the various asks. We were looking at how we would potentially cost this, so I would be grateful if we could do that.

Absolutely. We would be more than happy to receive anything else that NCBI has for us. It would be very helpful.

Our recommendations will hopefully reflect what has been said in today's committee meeting, given it is so important.

It does bring up a lot when we start discussing this. Thank you. We will suspend while we bring in the next witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 12.19 p.m. and resumed at 12.21 p.m.
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