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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 4 Jul 2023

Education Needs of Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students: Discussion

The first session of this meeting has to finish by noon and the second session has to finish by 1 p.m.

Before I proceed with the meeting, on behalf of all members of the committee, I offer our sincere condolences to the family, friends and the wider school community at St. Michael’s College in Ballsbridge on the very sad and untimely passing of Andrew O’Donnell and Max Wall. By all accounts, they were too very fine young men who were well liked and respected by all in the school community. The outpouring of support and kind messages in recent days is testament to the high esteem they were held in by the school and their families. I would like to offer the committee’s condolences to the families and school community. We will be thinking of them in the weeks and months ahead.

Before I proceed, I ask members to be brief in their questioning. As I said, we have to finish this session by noon. The first item is the minutes of the meeting on 21 June. Are they agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Mr. Brendan Lennon, director of advocacy, Chime; Dr. John Bosco Conama, vice chair of board directors, the Irish Deaf Society, IDS; and Ms Eimer O’Rourke and Mr. Shane Hamilton, principal and a fifth-year student at the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra, Dublin 7. The witnesses are here to discuss the education needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing students. The Council of Irish Sign Language Interpreters had to decline the invitation because its witness is unwell.

We wish him a full and speedy recovery. The opening statement will be published on the website following today's meeting. I also welcome the observers in the Public Gallery, who have taken time to be with us today. I hope they enjoy their Oireachtas experience.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite witnesses to make a brief opening statement in the following order: Mr. Lennon, Dr. Conama, Ms O'Rourke and Mr. Hamilton. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee, who will have five minutes each. The committee will publish the opening statements on its website following today's meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or official outside of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I call Mr. Lennon to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Brendan Lennon

I thank the committee members for organising this session on the education needs of children who are deaf or hard of hearing, and for extending an invitation to Chime to address it on this important subject.

Chime is pleased to have the opportunity to highlight a key issue for us, which is the significant gap between how deaf and hard of hearing children are doing in our schools, compared with their hearing peers of similar ability. We have good reason to believe this gap is significant, and that it is widening. We do not know for sure, because information on educational attainment of deaf and hard of hearing students is not being published. We would like the committee's support in having this information made public, so that we can see the exact educational attainment gap, and agree what we need to do to close it.

One thing we know is that according to National Council for Special Education, NCSE, figures in 2021 there were 5,391 deaf and hard of hearing children supported by the visiting teachers of the deaf. The majority are enrolled in mainstream schools, with 170 students currently enrolled in the two deaf schools. In terms of today's discussion, it is crucial to understand that being deaf or having a hearing loss is not in any way an impediment to learning. It is the environment that creates barriers to learning, such as lack of support for parents, lack of training for teachers, and low expectations among professionals. Chime fully endorses the NCSE’s goal for the education of deaf and hard of hearing children as outlined in the council’s policy advice paper of 2011. The council stated that the goal should be that these children, “graduate from school with levels of educational attainment that are on a par with their hearing peers of similar ability.”

However, in the intervening period neither the Department nor the council have produced any evidence to indicate this goal is being realised. Late last year Chime met with the Minister of State at the Department of Education with responsibility for special education and inclusion and asserted that there is an immediate need to publish information on the levels of educational attainment for deaf and hard of hearing children. We know this information is already available to the NCSE, but it is not being collated to create a national report to determine the extent to which the council’s goal for these children is being achieved. We have good reason to believe there is a significant gap between how deaf and hard of hearing children are doing in our schools in respect of their hearing peers of similar ability. We also have reason to believe that the gap may, in fact, be growing.

In the UK, where they publish this information, the gap between the attainment of deaf and hard of hearing children and their hearing peers is roughly one grade per subject. The gap in Ireland may be even greater because we believe children in Ireland are receiving less support. For example, the visiting teacher service is widely recognised as a vital support to parents, children and classroom teachers.

It is operating at approximately 60% of the capacity of the service in the UK. We also believe that teachers primarily involved teaching deaf and hard of hearing students in Ireland are much less likely to have a postgraduate qualification in deaf education than their counterparts in the UK. It is widely recognised that such qualifications are critical to providing a good quality education to these children.

As I have stated, we believe the gap is growing. Since the introduction by the Department of Education of the new special education teacher allocation model in 2017, many parents tell us that their deaf and hard of hearing children are receiving less support than previously. A small survey completed by One Family Ireland showed that 80% of children are receiving learning support. Of those who had hours prior to 2017, more than 80% now have fewer hours. The numbers in that survey are small, but it is consistent with the message parents are giving us anecdotally. We raised this matter directly with the Minister, and queried how the principle that the child with the greatest level of special educational need receives the greatest level of support is being applied in schools, in particular as it relates to deaf and hard of hearing children. Until we begin to collate an evidence-based picture of how deaf and hard of hearing children are achieving in our schools, we believe they are increasingly less likely to get the support they need, and the education gap may increase.

There are other issues relevant to this discussion, such as teacher training in deaf education, Irish Sign Language, ISL, competency amongst teachers of the deaf and visiting teachers, access to assistive technology outside schools, waiting lists for services, a broken ISL home tuition scheme and low participation rates in third level education. All of these fall short of what is required. On a positive note, we welcome the new teacher training course delivered in Dublin City University, DCU, through ISL, which will have its first deaf primary school teacher graduates this year. This is a huge boost for deaf education in the country, and for the deaf community. We also welcome the new ISL in-school support scheme, although we are concerned at the pace and manner in which it is being implemented. There is also the opportunity for some quick wins. For example, assistive technology known as personal FM systems, which have been traditionally seen as educational technology for use in schools, should be made available to families of young children from the age of six months.

In summary, it is fair to say we have more questions than answers. In our view, the first step should be to establish how well deaf and hard of hearing children are learning in our schools, by collating and publishing educational outcomes. This will enable all stakeholders to have a more informed and transparent view of where we are and what we need to do to improve. The support of the committee to help achieve this would be most welcome.

Dr. John Bosco Conama

I thank the committee for the invitation to contribute today. The Irish Deaf Society welcomes the opportunity to discuss the education needs of deaf and hard of hearing students. The IDS refers to all deaf and hard of hearing people whose preferred language is ISL as culturally deaf with a capital "D." When, throughout our documentation, we refer to deaf with a capital "D," this includes hard of hearing. The IDS is the national deaf-led representative organisation of the deaf, and is recognised as a Disabled Peoples Organisation, DPO, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. The IDS is a members of the World Federation of the Deaf, WFD, and the European Union of the Deaf, EUD. We lead the ISL Act cross community group, which is a group of national organisations and service providers working in the deaf community.

Last week, we met the Joint Committee on Disability Matters to discuss the World Health Organisation, WHO, World Report on Hearing 2021, and how it should inform development of policy in Ireland. There were some key takeaways relevant to today’s discussion. The WHO report lists sign language development as a high quality early hearing intervention. It states:

Language acquisition in children ensures optimal cognitive and socio-emotional development and can be undertaken through non-auditory means… access to communication through sign language learning provides a much needed stimulus for facilitating the timely development of deaf infants.

The report also states:

[L]earning sign language ensures that infants do not face any delay in language acquisition ... Moreover, learning sign language does not hinder or delay the subsequent or simultaneous acquisition of spoken language skills.

The World Federation of the Deaf's Position Paper on the Language Rights of Deaf Children strongly recommends that all deaf children and their families receive sign language early intervention services as soon as possible after birth. Otherwise, they are at risk of language deprivation.

Article 25 of the UNCRPD calls on governments to provide high-quality sign language early intervention. It states that it is essential that medical professionals collaborate with deaf professionals, community members, sign language teachers and deaf advocacy organisations. Article 23 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that parents of disabled children must be provided, free of charge, with assistance and services to ensure the children reach their fullest individual, social, and cultural development. The current supports delivered by the Government are not sufficient and are not managed effectively. The Irish Deaf Society has submitted proposals to the Department of Education as to how the home tuition scheme could be run effectively, as it is currently dysfunctional.

In June of this year, the Irish Deaf Society launched our three-year strategic plan. One of its strategic pillars is advancing education and training opportunities. The first strand of that pillar seeks to achieve the recommendations set out in our policy paper on education, published in September 2022. The Department of Education has a clear responsibility under the UNCRPD to engage with the Irish Deaf Society as a representative disabled people's organisation, DPO. However, we have not had any engagement on our strategy, our position paper on deaf education or multiple proposals submitted on the home tutor scheme since 2018. This is not acceptable and we call on the Department to include us in meaningful consultation.

I will now give a summary of the key points that must be addressed from our deaf education position paper. I commented earlier on the importance of early intervention. There is more detail on this in our position paper.

The next point concerns the home tuition scheme As mentioned earlier, the current scheme is not fit for purpose. In order to provide a quality service to child and family service users, the scheme must include the appointment of deaf tutors, native ISL signers, support and supervision services, quality management, a complaints system and continuing professional development, CPD, for tutors. Other supports that should be provided include age-appropriate curriculum guidance, mechanisms for reviewing and sharing good practices, and guidance for families on the curriculum provided.

Inclusive education is another key point. We affirm the position of the World Federation of the Deaf in advocating for inclusive education for deaf learners that is of high-quality, with direct instruction in sign language, access to deaf teachers and deaf peers who use sign language, and a bilingual curriculum that includes the study of sign language. Government policy must include this in its medium- and long-term goals and must plan accordingly. Provision of ISL supports and interpreters is at best a short-term solution to language deprivation in the classroom.

Research is needed on the evaluation of educational outcomes in Irish education for deaf and hard-of-hearing students, to examine the literacy achievements of deaf students in a bilingual environment vis-à-vis those in other contexts, Irish Sign Language development milestones, development of English as a second language in a bilingual environment, positive outcomes concerning educational achievement and emotional development where ISL is a recognised language.

Another key point concerns teacher training. Under Article 24.3(4) of the UNCRPD, the State is required to take appropriate measures to employ teachers, including teachers with disabilities, who are qualified in sign language, and to train professionals and staff who work at all levels of education. Achieving quality, inclusive education for deaf learners requires teacher proficiency in sign language, knowledge and development of quality bilingual curricula and pedagogy, awareness of the need for high expectations for deaf learners as bilingual learners, and the provision of teacher education that supports deaf candidates' achievement of teaching credentials. There is not enough investment and development in this area.

The final key point concerns third level, tertiary and adult education. Article 24.5 of the UNCRPD requires states to ensure persons with disabilities are able to access general tertiary education, vocational training, adult education and lifelong learning without discrimination and on an equal basis with others. Deaf students in Ireland face significant challenges in regard to choice, supports and reasonable accommodations. They are under-represented in higher education in Ireland.

I will now give a summary conclusion.

I ask Dr. Conama to abide by the ruling of the Chair as to the time given for witnesses.

I have to be fair to all the members of the committee. They will want time to ask questions. It is more appropriate that we take the rest of Dr. Conama's statement as read and move on to the next speaker. Every witness has been allowed five minutes, and I want to give every member an opportunity to contribute. We must be finished by 12 noon. I invite Ms O'Rourke to give her opening statement.

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

I thank members for the opportunity to meet with them to discuss the education needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing students. My school, Holy Family School for the Deaf, is a special school that sits within the continuum of national provision for deaf and hard-of-hearing children in Ireland. The school is an amalgamation of the two former schools for the deaf in Cabra and is the inheritor of deaf and hard-of-hearing education provision that stretches back to the 1840s. With an enrolment of 135 for the coming school year, most deaf and hard-of-hearing children now attend mainstream schools.

The most effective way to educate deaf and hard-of-hearing children is very much a matter of debate. In the Irish context, deaf and hard-of-hearing education has undergone huge change, particularly in the past 30 years. Enabling deaf and hard-of-hearing children to reach their full potential is challenging because educational needs vary greatly. There is no one effective way to teach all deaf and hard-of-hearing children. Outcomes are lower because key barriers continue to prevent these children from achieving their academic, linguistic and social-emotional potential.

At Holy Family, we have a very diverse cohort of pupils who communicate both orally and-or whose first or preferred language is ISL. We provide the full national curriculum from early intervention, through to primary and post-primary. Our pupils sit the State examinations for junior cycle, leaving certificate applied and leaving certificate. Since amalgamation in 2016, the number of pupils with additional needs or who are deaf-plus enrolling with us has increased. Therefore, we have introduced junior cycle level 2 programmes and are actively engaging with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, on provision for this cohort of pupils at senior cycle.

Educating deaf and hard-of-hearing students requires more than just differentiating the curriculum. It requires an understanding of the impact of deafness on language development, literacy and social and emotional development. For many of our students, English is not their first language. It also requires that we can effectively meet the unique communication needs of each individual student, often within the same class group. Our teachers are competent in ISL and are supported by the special needs assistant, SNA, team. At Holy Family School for the Deaf, our staff have a wealth of shared experience to meet the needs of our student population.

Deaf people are at higher risk of mental health illness as a result of the impacts of social isolation and language deprivation. True to our school motto "Every Family has a Story to Tell, Welcome to Ours", we endeavour to provide a safe space in which deaf and hard-of-hearing children do not feel different or that they must fit in. They are inspired by positive deaf role models on our staff. At Holy Family, deaf identity and deaf culture are cherished. Holy Family is very much a specialist school rather than a special school. Our pupils are the most positive learners one is likely to meet in any educational setting. Expectations for our students are high and we know that with the right support, they absolutely can achieve their full potential, as is evident from the success of our pupil, Shane Hamilton, who is with me today, and his transition year group in the national finals of the Young Social Innovators competition.

Our specialist school for the deaf and hard-of-hearing strives towards excellence, but we are aware of the constant need to improve outcomes for our pupils. To support our work in the school and for improved outcomes for all deaf and hard-of-hearing children, we call on the Minister for Education to take a number of actions. We ask that she invest in deaf education research and teacher education. The only options for CPD resulting in postgraduate qualification are offered at the universities of Birmingham and Manchester. The Minister must ensure deaf children and deaf educators have full access to information. This means funding interpreters.

We currently pay an average of €13,000 annually from school capitation. The Minister should develop an ISL curriculum for primary and post-primary deaf and hard-of-hearing pupils. She should invest in ISL learning programmes for staff. She should release staff to further develop ISL skills or, alternatively, provide for an ISL teacher on staff. The Minister should invest in and fully resource a specialist national multidisciplinary team for deaf pupils. Holy Family is the biggest deaf school in the country. Our pupils travel from all over Ireland. A home school liaison teacher would be of enormous benefit. Holy Family is currently bilocated on two different campuses 3 km apart. Our new school building project is with the NTMA. I ask the Minister to prioritise that project in order that all our pupils can be on one campus and annual grants can be invested in education provision rather than supporting four school buildings.

Mr. Hamilton and I are delighted to meet with the committee today. The Holy Family school community and I personally are very proud of our school, and I invite members of this community to visit Holy Family in the coming school year.

I thank Ms O'Rourke for that. The first member up is Deputy Jim O'Callaghan. I remind him that he has five minutes, including for the witnesses to respond.

I welcome the witnesses before the committee. Before I ask questions of them, I wish, as a Deputy for the constituency of Dublin Bay South, in which St. Michael's College is based, to express my condolences to the families, friends and teachers of Andrew O'Donnell and Max Wall on their devastating loss.

The witnesses are all very welcome before the committee. Mr. Lennon mentioned in his statement how we should be publishing more information in order that the educational gap between deaf students and students who are not deaf can be assessed. Specifically what type of information does he think the State should publish?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

The Department for Education in the UK publishes this kind of information. It publishes outcomes on state examinations. More importantly, it publishes outcomes for standardised assessment tests, SATs, which are conducted much earlier in the educational journey in the UK. In Ireland, we have so-called SATs in second, fourth and sixth class, as I understand it. If we knew how deaf and hard-of-hearing children were doing compared with their hearing peers of similar ability at that stage, and if we were to have SATs annually, we would be able to see what the gap is and, over time, would be able to see, if we were doing new things, whether that gap was narrowing.

More information would give us more detail as to how we can assess the approach to the issue.

Mr. Brendan Lennon

Absolutely.

Has the Department given an explanation as to why this is not published?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

We did meet with the Minister of State with responsibility for special education last November and we raised this issue directly. I think the Department's view at the time was that it did not do this kind of thing but it did not present any good reason for not doing it. The 33 visiting teachers in the country already have all this information. They receive the information from schools for the children on their caseload who do these SATs and they share that information with parents. It would, therefore, be a fairly simple exercise to put all those data into a spreadsheet.

Dr. Conama is very welcome before the committee. He mentions in his opening statement how early intervention is very important for deaf children. At what age should deaf children get that intervention from teachers?

Dr. John Bosco Conama

As early as possible - from birth, straight away, if possible. Once identified as deaf, as soon as possible after that.

Dr. Conama also mentioned that the appointment of deaf tutors is a very important part of the home tuition scheme. Are there enough deaf tutors and are enough being trained to provide home tuition?

Dr. John Bosco Conama

The answer to both questions, in short, is "No". Currently, we have deaf tutors but their management and the structure around that tuition scheme are an issue and then there is a struggle looking for deaf tutors themselves. Many deaf people do not want to be in the scheme because of the management system, the income, the increments, etc.

We are looking to research a different way of providing new tutors as relief, for example, but at the moment, the short answer to both questions is no, there are not enough.

I would like to ask Ms O'Rourke about the teachers in the Holy Family School for the Deaf, and I would certainly be glad to take up her offer of the invitation to the school later in the year. Does Ms O'Rourke find it difficult to get teachers? Are there a sufficient number of teachers being trained to teach deaf children?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

As a principal, I have the same struggles as every principal in Ireland when it comes to recruiting teachers. Until very recently, as mentioned, there were no graduates for primary education who were deaf themselves. We have many deaf teachers in the post-primary section of Holy Family School for the Deaf. There are 39 members of the teaching staff, including the deputy principal and me. Six teachers, to date, were deaf themselves. We are moving to nine, because I am delighted to report that three of the graduates from the Dublin City University, DCU primary Irish sign language, ISL track have been successful at interview and are going to join our teaching staff.

The key issue remains that a qualified teacher in the Irish system is not qualified to teach deaf children. Special education is a very small part of teacher education. One needs to come to the school, learn by experience, but then one needs to engage in further professional development. Regrettably, that is not available in the Irish context. We have two teachers and members of staff currently going through the postgraduate diploma, but they are doing that in Birmingham, which is not in the Irish context. That is very regrettable. The short answer is no, we need more provision to train teachers of deaf children.

I thank Ms O'Rourke and the Chair, and I am sorry that I did not get an opportunity to ask Mr. Hamilton a question because of the time limitation.

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. Deputy Mairéad Farrell is next, followed by Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Sorca Clarke will be taking the first round.

I thank the witnesses for their time this morning. They are most welcome, and I thank Ms O'Rourke for the kind invitation to her school. I would like to ask Mr. Lennon a couple of questions first. He mentioned in his opening statement about the quick win for technology. Can he talk to us a bit more about that? Specifically, he mentioned technology outside of schools. Could he speak to us a little bit more about that? Mr. Lennon also mentioned the special education teacher allocation model, and the effect that is having on deaf and hard-of-hearing children. Can Mr. Lennon speak to us a bit more about that also?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

On the technology piece, traditionally, up until about ten years ago, children who were born with hearing loss were often not diagnosed until they were two, three or four years of age. The average age of diagnosis was around three. Parents often did not know that their child had a hearing loss, and so, the interventions began after that, and typically, just as the child was about to enter school. Technology was provided to children in schools for those children who would benefit from it. They were called frequency modulated, FM systems. Essentially, what would happen is that the teacher would wear a microphone, and the speech from the teacher would go directly to a receiver in the child's hearing aids or their cochlear implant.

Without going into it in too much detail, that is a huge improvement in the sound quality of speech that the child is receiving. It makes it much easier to hear what is being said and to absorb new information, etc., which one needs to be able to do if one is in a learning situation. This equipment was provided in schools, but of course when we look at how children learn language and so on, an awful lot happens before they go to school. With the introduction of newborn hearing screening just over ten years ago, children are being diagnosed as early as two or three months of age. There is an opportunity for those children, who are following an oral-aural route and using hearing aids or cochlear implants, to benefit from this technology at home.

Sorry. Is Mr. Lennon saying that the child would have access to technology, but limited access based on the hours that they spent in school?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

Yes. The Department of Education, and also the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth at present, provide this technology in school situations or in a preschool setting. We have actually managed to get the Department of Education and the NCSE to change their understanding, and allow parents to bring the equipment home for children who are in primary and secondary schools.

We have been able to do that for children who are in preschool because the Department views it as equipment that still belongs to the Department and cannot be risked and brought home. Even before that, as early as six months of age, in other words, once the parent is no longer communicating with the child just on their knee and when the child starts sitting up or sitting on a high chair, for example, and the parent is doing whatever they are doing, washing the dishes or making the dinner, they can still communicate with the child during those moments. We are programmed to say "goo" and "aah" at babies and young children because we are training them in language all of the time. Not just for an hour a day or in school, but for many hours. On the home tuition scheme, the Department is saying that parents and children can learn ISL based on one hour per week. One can imagine how well a parent will learn a language if he or she is only getting one hour per week's training in it and how well he or she will be able to pass it on to their child.

Going back to the equipment, a typical example parents give is when they are in the car and their child is in the baby seat in the back. They cannot communicate with them because they have to be facing the child in order to do so. However, they can do so with the FM technology because it is the same as facing their children. In fact, it is the same as only being one foot away from their ear, so to speak.

It is crazy that the taxpayer is paying for this technology, but we are not maximising the benefits from it. Ms O'Rourke just mentioned how children come into school with linguistic delays. This is one of the quick wins we can have in terms of those children who are following an oral aural route get better opportunities to learn language at home before they go to school, like most other children.

I find it hard to get my head around the fact that a piece of equipment would be provided to a child for such a vital thing, like being familiar with sound, but would be given on a very limited basis and removed from the home of a young child where the vast majority of learning happens outside of the formal preschool setting.

Senator Flynn is next.

Will the Chair give me a couple of minutes please?

I will go to Deputy Ó Cathasaigh first and then come back to Deputy Flynn.

I will say to Mr. Lennon that I have seen FM technology in use in the classroom. It gives rise to all those funny stories that one has to remember when to turn it off. I see absolutely no good reason to not extend it to parents. As Mr Lennon said, once a child is sitting up in a highchair, that is when their language experience begins at home.

My first question is for Mr. Hamilton. He is a pupil of the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra.

Mr. Shane Hamilton

Yes.

I am sure he has deaf friends in mainstream schools, and I am sure they talk. How would Mr. Hamilton compare the two experiences, between his experience in the Holy Family School for the Deaf versus the mainstream experience? Which does he think is better?

Mr. Shane Hamilton

I have a few deaf friends in mainstream school. The biggest thing I have noticed is that, unlike me and some of my friends in the deaf school, they feel a lot more alone. They are a lot more isolated. I have often had deaf friends who are in hearing schools comment to me that they are very upset because they do not have friends in their new school and they feel isolated. No one understands the language they are speaking and they have to learn a whole new language just to understand other people. They feel very isolated. That is a big theme. It really is a struggle for them. Even with all the assistance that technology in mainstream classrooms has given us nowadays, it does not help from the point of view of peer pressure that they have to keep up with their other classmates. There are a lot more barriers to them keeping up, and if they do not keep up they feel like they are failing, not just themselves but also their teachers, parents, and siblings.

Some of my deaf friends have siblings who are hearing. They can feel isolated even within their own families because their siblings are living wholly different lives from them. Their siblings have massive groups of friends, while this one person or these few people who are deaf and may have a very small group of friends feel they are not living up to the standards they want to set or that are set by their family members and friends.

May I ask Mr. Hamilton a stupid question? I hope he will forgive me. I am thinking about leaving certificate subject choices. Can he study a language, such as Spanish, for the leaving certificate?

Mr. Shane Hamilton

In Holy Family, we do not have any languages other than ISL. It is difficult for many of the students in Holy Family. Most of them can talk but some are fully deaf. Some of them come from other countries. We have students from Latvia, Nigeria and Estonia and they are already learning a new sign language. It would be extra difficult if they had to learn Irish, Spanish or German on top of that. How would they even be able to speak the language if they do not know how to speak or if they have lived their whole lives just signing? It would be very difficult for them to do so.

I have a related question for Ms O'Rourke. Holy Family is a small school, with 135 students across primary and post-primary levels. How does it cope in terms of offering subject choices for its post-primary students in particular?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

We have special provision for that. We get an extra allocation of staffing to cover subject choice at post-primary level. We have nine temporary concession posts to cover specialist subject areas such as woodwork and home economics.

I have a question for Mr. Lennon on geographic spread. He stated there are 33 visiting teachers countrywide, which does not seem like a great number of teachers to get to approximately 5,400 students. What is the geographic spread in that regard? Is there provision to deaf students throughout the country or are there blackspots?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

From time to time, parents report to us that they get no service because a visiting teacher has left the service and there is a gap in service provision. That is sometimes an issue in particular areas because the visiting teachers are allocated on a geographic basis. The main thing parents increasingly tell us is that they do not see their visiting teacher anymore. The visiting teachers seem to be less visible on the ground. We do not know whether that is partly because of the change in the management of visiting teachers, who moved from direct management by the Department of Education to the NCSE a number of years ago. As we are at 60%, or a little more than half, of the level of the corresponding service in England, one would expect the service people get will be much less. Parents value the service but it seems that only some parents are seeing their visiting teacher regularly. That may relate to the particular needs of their child but there is certainly a major need for that service to be improved and expanded.

I thank the Holy Family school for all its work. It is a fantastic school that empowers young students to go on to be what they want to be. There are some supports in Dublin for deaf students but are there deaf schools beyond Dublin, in the likes of Kerry or Donegal, that are able to facilitate students? I refer to the wraparound supports that are needed for students to be successful within the education system at post-primary and primary levels.

As a committee, we work on a cross-party basis. I am from the Traveller community and for the past two years I have been working on equality for everybody in the education system. What are the gaps for deaf students or students who are hard of hearing? What does the committee need to do to make life easier and better for students?

Very simply, what should be implemented within the education system for extra students?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

There are a number of students, I think in the 20s, who are deaf. Their first language is ISL. They are in mainstream settings rather than settings specifically for deaf children. I am taking those figures from the NDA report on the implementation of the ISL Act. The new scheme announced by the Minister, the ISL in-school support scheme, is really important for those children. Certainly, there has not been 20 posts appointed so some of those children are in school with very poor levels of ISL support, based on the NDA report. The sooner that is sorted out, the better.

I mentioned that we are not happy about the pace at which that scheme is being rolled out. I also want to make the point that while the NDA report said there were 77 children in the country whose first language was ISL, that seems to me to be a very low number. There is a parent in the Gallery whose son is eight years of age. He is a cochlear implant user. He speaks very well and can converse with people but, as his mum says, he learns through ISL. This is what people need to understand. If someone is going to learn something, the information has to be presented in a way that they can just hear it and take it in. They cannot be straining to lip-read somebody and understand what they are saying. Then the person's concentration is trying to figure out what they are saying with their lips instead of having their brain power and cognitive resources focused on learning. I do not know if the Department or the NCSE said that boy was an ISL user. He is a cochlear implant user. It works. He does not technically qualify for the medicalised criteria the Department outlined when the scheme was announced. Thankfully, his mum has told me he has been accepted, as it were, by the Department as an appropriate student for the scheme. He will be or is getting proper ISL support in class.

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

While we have 135 pupils, we have capacity for many more. There are many advantages that our school can offer, including highly qualified staff, high competence in ISL and there is a boarding option in Dublin. That is another valuable learning experience for students also. The Senator asked what needs to happen. Greater understanding is needed of the impact of deafness on learning and better teacher education is critical to improve the outcomes for deaf children nationally.

I wanted to ask a question about stigma. Within the Traveller community, there is still a lot of shame that comes with a child being deaf. The supports are not there for children in the community. Ms O'Rourke said there are people from different countries in her school. Out of curiosity, are there people from the Traveller community in her school?

Senator, I am going to go to Deputy Nolan now and in the end I will give time to wrap up any outstanding questions.

I will be as brief as I can. I congratulate Shane and his classmates on their fantastic achievement. Fair play and the very best of luck. As a transition year student, what would he like to see in the education system to support him and his peers? The student voice is so important in all of this.

Mr. Shane Hamilton

During transition year, we went on a lot of trips, mostly in Dublin but we also went to Cork. We recently went to Galway as well. The interpreter we had for each of those trips was mostly the same person.

That is not a negative thing. It shows me that it is difficult to book an interpreter who is able to be there on time and able to provide support. An interpreter is definitely needed for transition year trips because an SNA from our school will not always be able to go with them. Most of the time the teacher will try to help. However, as Ms O'Rourke mentioned, it is difficult to get a teacher who already knows Irish Sign Language, ISL, by hand. They focus on getting the ISL course in. Interpreters are an important part of trips, especially when we recently went to Galway for the F1 competition. We had two interpreters there. One of interpreters was a very nice person who had been on a few trips. I noticed she was on our trips all the time. It feels weird to have the same person every time. You hear talk about all these different interpreters. There are meant to be a great many interpreters, so why am I seeing just the one person for every trip?

There is clearly a shortage and a need to train far more. I can certainly take that on board as a Deputy with a background in education. I will raise that issue. My next question relates to resources at the Holy Family School for the Deaf. Would Ms O'Rourke describe her position as adequately resourced by the Department? I am curious to know how things worked during the pandemic. It caused upheaval for every school in the country. I can only imagine how much more difficult it was for this school. How did it cope?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

It was, without a doubt, hugely challenging. However, we were successful. Our biggest fear was the isolation of our students. They need to be together and learn together. We were fortunate to have good benefactors in the Lions Club of Ireland, in particular the Dublin Lions which funded our school to purchase Chromebooks. On the day the school broke up, we were able to send students home with Chromebooks and that is how we kept in contact with our students. But for that, we would have been completely lost. We had good daily interaction then on the Internet, keeping in touch with our students.

However, the impacts have been huge. This can be seen in all the learning our students missed out on during those years and all the separateness that happened over that time. We compliment our staff who worked so hard to ensure the children's well-being was so well supported.

That is fantastic. I have one last question. I am curious about how home tuition worked with the ISL home tutors. What would be the maximum number of hours a student could get if this system was working well? I am happy to raise this issue.

Mr. Brendan Lennon

It is set by the Department at 104 hours as a maximum in any one year. Typically that is seen as one hour per week for 44 weeks and seven and a half hours per week during the summer holidays. However, as Dr. Conama pointed out, this should be started as early as possible, before children go to school. Children learn language from six or nine months of age. It is not an attractive role for a person to go out to a family's home for one hour a week. Also, an hour a week is not going to get you a new language. More than 95% of parents of deaf and hard-of-hearing children have no other deafness in the family; there are no other deaf people. It is a whole new experience for them. Learning ISL is a whole new experience. The scheme is not fit for purpose. Dr. Conama mentioned such issues as the lack of a curriculum and quality assurance. The payment is made to parents believe it or not. The tutors are not paid directly by the Department. It is a mess. Both ourselves and the Irish Deaf Society have complained constantly to the Department about this for many years.

I thank the witnesses.

I wish to remind members that we must finish this session by 12 noon and two more witnesses must come in, namely, myself and Deputy Sorca Clarke. I call Deputy Ó Ríordáin.

I am sorry for my lateness. I was listening in. I had an issue some years ago with a student who studied music.

The Department made her life very difficult in that it would not allow her to continue because of her hearing loss. She had graduated hearing loss over a period of time. I found the Department to be very rigid and difficult. Its position was that because she could not do the listening part of the music exam, she had to step away from music altogether. Music was her first love. If one goes down through the history of music, some of our greatest ever composers had hearing loss. Can our guests speak to that please and do they find dealing with the Department of Education to be a very rigid and difficult experience with a very old-fashioned view of who can and who cannot do certain subjects, and is music just one of those?

Does Dr. Conama wish to take that question?

Dr. John Bosco Conama

Yes, that is not a problem. The Deputy is correct in that the Department of Education is most definitely very rigid. That has been the situation for a long time. Looking back in history at the education of deaf people, one would not notice such a great difference with regard to where the policies and failures are. Obviously, much of that is down to not being able to cover resources.

From now on, I am sorry to hear the Deputy talk about that student and her failure around music. Accommodation can be made for deaf people and this has been done. They can write, read and sign towards music, so it can be done. I am sorry to hear the Deputy's perspective. Given that music was this student's first love; that is an issue. Again, the Department is very rigid and, as Mr. Lennon said, when one goes to the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, it is exactly the same position with that rigid structure. That needs to change and to become more flexible to allow those new intonations to come in.

Ms O'Rourke had a number of asks from the Department of Education which could be joined to Deputy Ó Ríordáin's question.

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

On the issue of music and of reasonable accommodations for State examinations; I believe there is a little bit of work to be done there to support our deaf students who are sitting the State examinations. We have reached out to our inspector on that and we are hoping to have more discussions as to what should be in place for those students so that they can fully access in an equal way with our hearing peers. Yes, reasonable accommodation should be looked at for deaf students.

Would Mr. Brennan like to contribute there?

Mr. Brendan Lennon

The only comment I would make is that there is a very well-known lady in the music industry who is profoundly deaf and that demonstrates that we should not be saying "No" to anybody with regard to music or any subject.

I have a number of quick questions for Ms O'Rourke specifically on her school. I know that she has raised a number of challenges. One which I was struck by was on the new school building, how the school is on two different campuses and the challenges which that brings to school management and students alike. How is the school functioning on two campuses? Is it by way of junior and senior cycle or what way and how does she manage that?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

With amalgamation, we amalgamated two schools which were on two different campuses. We had to use the best buildings from both. That meant that the best buildings for the primary cycle were on one particular campus and post-primary were on another. It is a great challenge and sometimes I wish I could clone myself so that I could be in both places at the same time, but that is not possible. I have to rely on a very supportive in-school management team to assist. We very much need to be together, especially for the young deaf children from early-intervention primary level to be with the older children, to see what is possible for them and to be inspired by them. I know that the little children love when Mr. Hamilton and his group go down to the primary. They can be together and can communicate together.

Apart from the logistics, it is the funding of running and paying the expenses such as maintenance and security for four school buildings. It is not sustainable. We want to put our capitation into the needs of our deaf students and not into cleaning costs and repairing the school roof, which is very problematic.

I am grateful that we have been accepted for a new school building but I very much hope it can make rapid progress.

What is the duration for this new building project?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

I am told that it could be between four and five years and we are only at step one, where we are waiting for the design team to come on site. I believe the tendering process is supposed to be happening soon. That is the latest update I have received.

How many schools for the deaf are of there across the island of Ireland?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

There is a school for the deaf in Limerick and the other schools are linked to mainstream schools. There are, therefore, only two specific schools for the deaf in Ireland.

As Chair of the committee, I promise we will follow up on the building programme. We will have the building section of the Department of Education in here in the next number of months and we will make that one of our priorities.

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

I very much appreciate it.

Mr. Hamilton, you are a credit to your family, your school and to yourself. We have had a number of young people before the committee. To come in here as a deaf person and be able to give a presentation and speak as confidently as you have makes you an absolute credit.

I am interested in the challenges Mr. Hamilton has with his peers outside the school. I am aware this is not about education, but I am just interested. I am thinking about playing football, hurling, soccer or whatever the story is. If he goes into a community where there are not many deaf people on the same team, how does he communicate and manage? Communicating with non-deaf people must be a huge challenge. I hope Mr. Hamilton does not mind my asking.

Mr. Shane Hamilton

I went to a mainstream school from basically junior infants up to first class. I did not really have any deaf friends during that time. I knew some deaf children, but I would only see them every few years, depending on events in the Deaf Village Ireland, DVI, that we would go to. As a result, most of my friends from a young age were hearing. That helped me speak clearly, but there was definitely a cultural difference in that they did not have their whole family being deaf. They did not know anyone deaf other than me, so when I tried to relate to them on their hearing experiences, it would not really correlate back. I had had a different family experience than them because at home if I wanted to call my mam, I could not just yell out her name. I would have to knock on the floor or the stairs. When my mam is calling me for dinner she often has to knock on the stairs, because if she just yells out my name, I most likely will not hear her. In a hearing household that is not a thing at all. Maybe it is a simple phone text, or they just go to the stairs and call or maybe they just say the name once and that is it. That posed a big social problem for me when I was young, because it made me feel different from my peers. It showed I was different and I stood out more than I wanted to. In classes with 30-plus people and with the radio, you stand out a lot, and usually it is not in a good light but a very negative one.

I fully agree with Ms O'Rourke on the reasonable accommodations at certificate examinations, RACE. I raised it with the Minister last week. This is a programme designed to help students demonstrate their best ability in an exam.

This is a broad question to anybody who wants to answer it. The Irish Sign Language Act 2017 recognised ISL as an individual language in its own right. Has there been a measurable increase in the supports and resources put behind ISL in our guests' opinion and, if not, where does the focus need to be now?

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

From the school's perspective, I have not seen an enormous change. I mentioned the challenge of employing interpreters. I asked for grants for that because it is a huge expense from school capitation. It is something that needs to happen. There might be an assumption it is okay for school staff to communicate for each other at formal meetings, but it is not. In respect to my deaf colleagues, we need professional interpreters there to do the job and likewise for when we meet parents. That needs to change.

Dr. John Bosco Conama

I wish to add something if the Cathaoirleach does not mind. It is important for everybody interested in the implementation of the ISL Act around education to read the National Disability Authority's Report on the Operation of the Irish Sign Language Act 2017 very carefully.

I have a last question for Ms O'Rourke. Are there many teachers working in deaf schools who have no connection whatsoever with any deaf persons? Let us say they want to do some public service for the deaf community as a teacher or whatever.

Ms Eimear O'Rourke

We recruit teachers in the same way mainstream schools do. They apply for a job in the school.

They do not come with any specific training but they may be quite nervous because they might not have an understanding off what it takes to be a teacher of deaf children. However, having an interest is very important. Once they are in, if they are a hearing person with no experience, we look after their early training and direct them in that way. I had never met a deaf person before I came to the school. I landed in St. Mary's as a substitute teacher but I got great support from the teachers in the school. We are a family community and we support each other. A teacher's skills develop over time previous. That CPD is very important. Those who want to move on and become a real professional teacher of the deaf need to do further studies.

If Shane Hamilton does not mind me asking, what age are you?

Mr. Shane Hamilton

I am 16.

He is on par with the youngest person to appear before the committee previously. The youngest is 16. It is a big step for somebody of 16 years of age to come before an Oireachtas committee and face politicians come. Your organisation and your family should be really proud of you. The confidence you have shown today is fantastic. Well done.

Mr. Shane Hamilton

Thank you.

There is one question outstanding. That was from Senator Flynn about the stigma.

Dr. John Bosco Conama

From my experience, I know exactly what it is like being embarrassed about being a deaf person. When I was growing up, I remember being taught to be a hearing person and not to be using sign language in public. Times changed and I can compare that negative experience to the experiences of those in the Travelling community. I know many deaf people and I also meant know many members of the Travelling community who are deaf. They would have that double stigma. However, people are now more open. For example, I am in here today. Some 20 or 30 years ago, it was unthinkable to see interpreters in public places. Things are improving and are changing. For example, when going into a coffee shop and ordering something, people ask what the sign language for "thank you" is. Therefore, there is a gradual breaking down off those barriers. I cannot exactly compare it to the Travelling community's experience but members of the travelling community who are deaf have the double. I can talk about my lived experience. Those barriers are reducing and attitudes are changing gradually the stigma is lessening.

Mr. Brendan Lennon

While not directly related to that, I think it is relevant. I know of a family in the Munster area with two profoundly deaf children. One of the children attends a deaf school and the other child attends the local mainstream school. Although the two children are both profoundly deaf, the mother would say that they have completely different personalities and different learning styles, and both are comfortable in those different environments. The family has been able to recognise the different needs of their children and to respond appropriately. We need to approach it like that to address the individual needs of each child based on their learning styles, personality and so on. As a country, we are offering some of that choice two people. That family is an example, but in many cases, we are falling down when we get into the school environment.

I thank the witnesses for appearing. Our discussion has been very productive on an issue of great importance. We have learned hey considerable amount from Shane Hamilton's personal experiences. I thank Dr. John Bosco Conama, Ms Eimear O'Rourke, Mr. Shane Hamilton and Mr. Brendan Lennon for coming in. They have informed our decision-making. On behalf of Ms O'Rourke, I will follow up on her school building. I will not promise anything but at least we can push it. I genuinely believe it is really important.

Sitting suspended at 12.09 p.m. and resumed at 12.14 p.m.

This is the second session. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretary with responsibility for special education and inclusion; Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer, special education unit; Mr. Frank Hanlon, principal officer, special education unit; Mr. Kieran Rogers, assistant principal officer, special education unit; Ms Evelyn O’Connor, principal officer, curriculum and assessment unit; and Mr. Mark Kelly, technical manager, planning and building unit, Department of Education. The officials are here to brief us on the educational needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing students.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Mannion to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions from committee members. Each member will have a five-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. As members will be aware, the meeting must finish by 1 p.m. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following today's meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite Ms Mannion to begin.

Ms Martina Mannion

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the invitation to represent the Department of Education before it and to speak about the supports available for deaf and hard-of-hearing children and young people in our education system. I am an assistant secretary in the Department. I am accompanied by a number of colleagues and the Cathaoirleach has outlined who they are and their roles and responsibilities.

The Department's policy in respect of supporting children and young people with additional needs, including students who are deaf or hard of hearing, is very clear. It is based on a child-centred approach to the provision of education and our role is to ensure all children with additional needs are supported to access an education appropriate to their needs. This means that children with additional needs should be supported to the greatest degree possible in mainstream settings, with additional teaching and care supports to allow them to achieve their potential.

In circumstances where children with additional needs require more specialised interventions, we ensure access to a special class or special school places. We have a number of special classes and special school places dedicated to supporting deaf students and students who are hard of hearing. The vast majority of children with additional or special educational needs are supported in mainstream settings. It is estimated that almost 98% of all children in our schools attend mainstream settings.

This year, the Department will spend in excess of €2.6 billion, or just over 27% of its budget, supporting children with special educational needs. This is the highest ever provision of funding by the State for special education. By the end of this year, there will be working in our schools more than 40,000 special education teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, who are dedicated to supporting students with special educational needs.

It is important to note a particular major policy initiative undertaken by the Department in respect of the provision of support in schools to children with special educational needs. In 2017, the Department introduced the special education teaching allocation model. This model of allocation provides additional teaching resources to schools and enables them to provide for the identified educational needs of students without a requirement for diagnosis. The underpinning principle of this model is that the child with the greatest level of need should receive the greatest level of support in the school.

In line with the agenda for today’s meeting, I want to take the opportunity to set out details on some of the specific supports that are available for deaf and hard-of-hearing students. There is a long-standing provision in place that provides a dedicated special needs assistant with ISL competency to support students in mainstream settings to access the curriculum and engage with school activities. There are currently 13 such SNA posts in place in our school system. For deaf or hard-of-hearing children with greater levels of need, 24 dedicated special classes are attached to primary and post-primary schools and there are two special schools for deaf children. These special classes and special schools support just under 300 students at present.

As committee members know, the Irish Sign Language Act commenced in late 2020. It placed a number of obligations on the Minister and the Department of Education. In accordance with the legislation, in 2022 the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, announced the commencement of the first phase of the implementation of an enhanced scheme of ISL provision. A key element of the enhanced scheme is to provide for two new roles in our education system. An ISL specialist classroom support will assist students and convey the spirit and content of the communication occurring in the classroom and enhance active engagement by the student with learning and participation in school life. The other role is that of an ISL adviser, who will have a broader remit and will work to try to build capacity in ISL throughout the school community, including among teachers, SNAs, other school staff and students. My colleagues and I will be happy to provide further information on the roll-out of the new scheme during the meeting.

The NCSE employs 29 visiting teachers who support children and young people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Visiting teachers are qualified teachers with particular skills and knowledge of the development and education of children with varying degrees of hearing loss. They offer longitudinal support to students, their families and schools from the time of initial referral through to the end of post-primary education. Following the introduction of the newborn screening programme, visiting teachers also provide valuable early intervention support in the home to families.

With regard to supporting Irish Sign Language in the curriculum, at primary level, ISL interpretation has been added by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, to materials published as part of the toolkit which supports the primary language curriculum. At junior cycle, schools can develop a short course on ISL, the emphasis being on developing communication skills. There are four modules on sign language available as part of the leaving certificate applied programme and there is also an opportunity for students to learn sign language during transition year. The NCCA redevelopment of the primary and senior cycle curriculum are obviously significant pieces of curricular reform under way at present. This provides an opportunity for the NCCA and the Department to further consider how we support ISL within these new curricula.

In addition to the main supports I have outlined, supports are also available for deaf and hard-of-hearing students and their families through the home tuition scheme. A total of 104 hours of tuition are available annually to students and their families. Currently, 152 children and their families are being supported under the scheme by approximately 52 tutors. I can confirm that we are currently reviewing this scheme with a view to streamlining the application process. The Department also has an assistive technology scheme, which provides technological support to children who need this for accessing the curriculum. This includes audiology supports for students with hearing impairment, such as sound-field systems, microphones and receivers. The Department increased its funding for this scheme by €2 million this year and we are fully committed to providing a range of technological supports to support students who are deaf and hard of hearing.

The concept of universal design now underpins all Department technical guidelines relating to the design and build of new schools and school extensions. The acoustic performance of a building is a key determinant of a quality learning environment. Additional provisions are also made in the design and build of new classrooms which are specifically to support deaf or hard of hearing students. Another significant development in this area is the profession of the bachelor of education ISL initial teacher education programme, which enables deaf and hard-of-hearing people who use ISL to become primary teachers. The first cohort of four students are graduating from this new programme this year and approval has been given for a second cohort to undertake the programme.

In conclusion, we have worked hard to ensure we are providing a supportive, inclusive system for all children. While huge progress has been made we are always aware of the challenges faced by individual children and their families and we are continuing to work with the NCSE and all of the education stakeholders to address any issues as they come to light. I thank the committee for the opportunity to outline some of the supports available. My colleagues and I look forward to engaging with committee members and answering any questions they might have.

I thank Ms Mannion. Deputy Clarke is first. During the questions from the members, if any of the witnesses wish to come in I ask them to raise their hand. Members may also wish to direct their questions to specific witnesses.

I than the officials for coming in and taking the time to answer the committee's questions. They will be aware that we had engagement with Holy Family School for the Deaf in the previous session. What is the status of their ask for a new school building which will allow them operate out of a single location as opposed to the four individual locations? Last Thursday, the Minister told me there is an ongoing review of the reasonable accommodations scheme. What engagement has there been with the State Examinations Commission, SEC, regarding students who are deaf or hard of hearing? I was told the most recent fundamental review was in 2016-17. What recommendations came out of that review in respect of students who are deaf or hard of hearing? Have those recommendations been fully implemented? What areas are an active part of the current review?

Ms Martina Mannion

I might ask my colleague in the building unit to answer the first question.

Mr. Mark Kelly

On the new school to be provided under the capital programme, there is currently a lease query with the patron for the additional 3,000 sq. m. extension that is being provided. When that has been bottomed out, the design team will be appointed to deliver the project through the stages in the planning and building unit.

Is there a timeline on that?

Mr. Mark Kelly

I was actually speaking to Emer O'Rourke earlier. We are just waiting on clarification back. I could not give the Deputy an exact timeline but when we get that, we can progress through the stages.

To stage one, the tender.

Mr. Mark Kelly

Exactly.

Ms Martina Mannion

I might ask my colleague, Ms O'Connor, to speak to the scheme of reasonable accommodations at certificate examinations, RACE, and the supports there.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The Deputy's first question was about the recommendations that came out of the previous reform. It was to ensure greater integration of the RACE scheme with the overall departmental special educational needs policy, enabling greater access to the scheme by students with learning difficulties----

I am sorry; my question was specifically for students who are deaf or hard of hearing.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The RACE scheme is not specifically for students who are deaf or hard of hearing; it is to support those who have a range of complex needs. I can outline the range of supports that are there to support those who are deaf or hard of hearing.

I might reword the question. In the more recent fundamental review, were there any specific recommendations in respect of students who are deaf or hard of hearing? If so, were they fully implemented?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I do not know whether any specific recommendations were made in the context of that review but I imagine that there were because an extensive range of examination supports are available to students who are deaf or have hearing impairments. I can outline those if the Deputy wishes me to do so. For example, they include the use of a personal CD player with a personal induction loop in the main examination centre for the oral examination, a special examination centre for the oral examination, a modified oral examination in a language subject, exemption from the oral examination if modified oral is not appropriate for the candidate, an exemption from the oral component of the music examination, a sign language interpreter to sign an examination paper without elaborating or explanation, being examined by an oral examiner who has been briefed in dealing with candidates with a hearing or speech impairment, exemption from the oral test if support arrangements are unsuitable and seating the candidate close to the superintendent and-or the CD player in the main examination centre. That can be arranged by the school.

As the Deputy said, the RACE scheme underwent fundamental reform in the 2016-17 school year. I started to tell her the areas on which it focused. Part of that would have included allowing schools greater autonomy, giving students greater certainty about examination supports that would be available to them and providing greater access to the scheme for students with learning difficulties. As I mentioned, it is there to support all students who have a range of-----

Some students with complex needs will have a different-----

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The RACE scheme is under-----

I am conscious that I have 12 seconds.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The RACE scheme is under constant review. In the context of senior cycle reform, it will be reviewed further.

As part of that review, is any area being looked at specifically with regard to students who are deaf or hard of hearing?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

The RACE scheme is under the remit of the State Examinations Commission. I am sure that submissions made and that it would have an extensive consultation process in respect of what needs to be reviewed.

Has the Department been in direct contact with SEC regarding the review of the RACE scheme and students who are deaf or hard of hearing?

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

I can follow up with a response on that because I am not sure whether the Department has been in contact with the commission on that matter.

Ms Martina Mannion

In 2017, 163 children at leaving certificate with a hearing impairment were granted reasonable accommodation. This figure increased to 239 in 2022. In 2017, 17 children at leaving certificate applied with hearing impairment were granted reasonable accommodation. This figure increased to 36 in 2022 so there has been a significant increase-----

That is very much in line with other increases in reasonable accommodation in the past decade.

Ms Martina Mannion

Correct.

Regarding the home tuition scheme, in her opening statement, Ms Mannion stated that 52 tutors provide approximately 104 hours per year for families. What is the cost per tutor on an annual basis? What is the annual cost of a visiting teacher?

Ms Martina Mannion

I might ask Mr. Hanlon to provide some information on the home tuition scheme. Regarding the visiting teacher service, there are 29 visiting teachers within the NCSE. The important thing to remember is that this is not a stand-alone support. It is part of the whole range of supports the NCSE offers. For example, it is in consultation the special educational needs organiser, the team leaders, the support services broadly and training. The overall budget for the NCSE-----

It is just about those-----

Ms Martina Mannion

There are teachers who are assigned to the NCSE.

We would not break their pay out as a separate component because the Department of Education is funding pay and non-pay in the NCSE. It is funding the entire range of staffing supports within the NCSE. For example, in this budget, we are going to double the number of staff working in the NCSE.

I will get the information from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, for an individual cost per tutor.

Ms Martina Mannion

It will be for a teacher. The figures we use in doing our calculations is the standard teacher wage.

There are no additional costs outside the standard teacher cost.

Ms Martina Mannion

No, there are no additional costs. The NCSE has normal travel and subsistence or training costs but it is a visiting teacher service is funded and paid for at teacher pay rates.

Finally, on that same issue of costing, has the Department run a costing on providing the same level of education and courses that Birmingham does here.

Ms Martina Mannion

It is important to say again that we are dealing with two different systems in two different jurisdictions so it is not a like-for-like comparison. The visiting teacher service in Ireland is just one of a range of supports available. They are in addition to mainstream class teachers and to the almost 19,000 special education teachers who are in the system as well. From our side of it, what we want to do is to ensure that we have the greatest possible numbers of teachers and supports in the system. It is more than simply a comparison of two systems that are not operating in similar set ups and structures.

If the NCSE, in working with it, identifies that there is additional need for extra staff, as it did in last year's budget, which is why we have doubled the number of staff in the NCSE, we will work with it through the budgetary process to get it whatever additional supports that are required.

What is the individual cost for one teacher attending Birmingham?

Ms Martina Mannion

That is part of the training budget we provide to the NCSE. It is not just an individual course. We provide it with a range of training and supports.

That is what I am looking for, that is, the cost of an individual to go to Birmingham.

Ms Martina Mannion

It would not be particularly significant but we fund it as part of our normal engagement with the NCSE of whatever training and staffing and supports that are needed. To ensure that money is not an impediment to people taking up that course, we fund those places. If there is a need for additional supports, we can fund those. I think if you look at it-----

The level of funding that each course is costing is the question.

Ms Martina Mannion

I can get the Deputy the exact figure for that. I want just reassure the Deputy that it is not a cost issue that prevents people accessing the course, because we are funding the cost of it.

That was not what I was asking. I was asking about the level of funding that is required for an individual to go to Birmingham.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. The shortage of interpreters was raised in the last session. We heard from a young transition year student and also the principal of the Holy Family School for the Deaf about this issue. The school spent €13,000 from its capitation budget to fund interpreters. It seems to be an issue. I would like to know what actions the Department is taking to increase the number of interpreters. Will we see a visible increase in the number of interpreters and in what timeframe will we see that, if it is planned?

My next question relates to the ISL home tuition. Again, it was pointed out by a number of speakers in the previous session that this is not working very well. It is not effective. My concerns lie with the fact that there are only approximately 52 tutors providing the ISL home tuition. What actions will the Department take to improve this service? Has the Department planned a review? Are representatives from the Department speaking to the students who are availing of this tuition, and their families? Is there collaboration and how might that be improved?

My final question relates to the rollout of an ISL curriculum across primary and post primary schools for deaf and hard-of-hearing children. Is that in the pipeline? If it is, when might we see it rolled out? Again, I would assume that there would be collaboration with the experts in the field, such as the NCSE and, indeed, the schools themselves and the principals who have been working in this area for some time.

Mr. Frank Hanlon

The Deputy is correct. As Ms Mannion said in her opening statement, we are reviewing it. Some 152 children are being supported by 52 tutors. The number of tutors is not strictly defined. It is based on need, so more teachers can be provided if needed. One of the one of the key things we want to look at is the efficiency of the payment system in particular, and how that works. We have some 1,400 children on home tuition across the wide spectrum in the Department so we have approximately 1,000 tutors on the payroll at any given time.

Previously, all payments would have gone directly to the families to give to the tutors. This has been changed on a phased basis. We are now looking at doing that specifically for the home tutors on the ISL scheme in particular because it makes the system much easier. Based on feedback we have had, this also makes it a bit more attractive for the tutors to take part in it. We will also talk to some of the families about how it is working for them.

Ms Martina Mannion

Increasing the number of interpreters is a matter for work with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability and Youth, which has responsibility for the implementation of the Irish Sign Language Act 2017. Obviously, any increase in the number of interpreters would benefit the education system. However, the responsibility, in the first instance, will lie with that Department

Regarding the funding for interpreters and cost to schools, we in the Department are acutely conscious of the cost, particularly for special schools. As the Deputy knows, we significantly increased the capitation to schools last year in the context of the cost-of-living crisis. We are looking at all of those measures again in the context of the upcoming budget. I give some reassurance that we are acutely conscious of the costs associated with special schools, given the challenges they face. Capitation and other costs are very much on our minds in that regard.

In relation to the curriculum, my colleague Ms O'Connor will be able to give more detail but I will give a broad outline. The Deputy spoke about the primary curriculum. She may be aware that the Minister recently announced the revised framework for the primary curriculum. Work will then need to be done to develop new curriculum specifications. They will be developed over the coming years in the five curriculum areas. Subjects and toolkits will be provided to support learning, teaching and assessment. The Say Yes to Languages programme in place in primary schools includes Irish Sign Language as a component. Since the programme was introduced, ISL has become the third most popular language being chosen by participating primary schools. Of the 467 schools that participated in 2021-22, 92 did Irish Sign Language. In 2022-23, 89 of the 693 schools did so. In 2023-24, 104 of 1,200 schools will do ISL. A further four schools with special classes for deaf children and five special schools have participated in the programme and chosen Irish Sign Language as their favoured component.

Regarding post-primary curriculum development, as the Deputy knows, a short course on ISL is available at junior certificate level. It was prepared by the primary language initiatives and is a 100-hour course offered as part of the short courses provided at junior certificate. At senior cycle, Irish Sign Language is available as part of the leaving certificate applied programme. Students can take four modules and there is also a component as a transition unit as part of the transition year, which has a curricular component timetabled for approximately 45 hours.

The Minister has recently announced the senior cycle reform so all learning pathways in schools are to be accessible and equally valued. This is part of that broader reform of senior cycle. Ms O'Connor can provide more information about where that will fit in.

Ms Evelyn O'Connor

Ms Mannion has outlined very well where ISL is currently in the curriculum. To add to that, the Department has asked the NCCA to carry out research to further the research base it already has in relation to ISL. The NCCA research looks at ISL in the curriculum in six other jurisdictions. It considers the vision, aims, principles, priorities and so on, and the place of ISL in the curriculum. The Department is considering the report, which will be published later this year.

The Department is currently considering that report.

I have another follow-up question. It was pointed out that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is the Department with responsibility for interpreters. Is there liaison or collaboration between that Department and the Department of Education, given that it has a wealth of knowledge, knows what schools need, and special schools are in contact regarding this very issue? I hope there is some ongoing collaboration and that information is passed from the Department of Education to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Ms Martina Mannion

To give the Deputy that reassurance, we work very closely with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. As she knows, responsibility for disability services was transferred from the Department of Health to that Department in March this year. There is very close collaboration on that.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Rogers, to respond regarding our new sign language scheme. We are recruiting people to work on that. The two new posts I talked about will identify where we need more sign language support. We will then engage with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on how to better increase that.

Mr. Kieran Rogers

I will follow on in respect of the ISL recruitment scheme. We undertook two pilots relating to classroom support in the south of the country. Both proved to be unsuccessful in finding a suitably qualified candidate for the post. One campaign was undertaken for the ISL adviser role, which also resulted in no qualified candidate coming forward. We then decided to undertake a national campaign, which has just finished the interviewing stage, and a panel has now been formed. Seven successful candidates were identified within that recruitment campaign. However, that falls considerably short of the 20 we looked for. We expect the first successful applicant will be appointed to the role in the coming weeks, and definitely before the start of the new school year, for the relevant schools. As the national campaign has demonstrated a deficiency in the skills available through the interview and recruitment process, we intend to engage with both the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Education, to discuss options with regard to expanding the pool to support these new roles, which are critical for the children with the greatest need in terms of being deaf or hard of hearing.

I thank Ms Mannion and all the officials. I will ask them a little more about a few areas. It is certainly positive to hear about the ISL bachelor of education professional qualification. I wish those four who have graduated the very best of luck. That is a landmark that cannot go unnoticed. We look forward to more people having the opportunity. The standard of new buildings now and universal design are also very welcome. Buildings are certainly far more appropriate and accessible than many of those in the past. I acknowledge the enhanced scheme of ISL provision and the roll-out of the new schemes. We are going in the right direction in trying to build capacity across the school community.

I am conscious, and it has been referred to a little, that other Departments, particularly the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Justice, are dealing with other elements. Sometimes, we have a siloed approach, which does not best help the individual and family. On building capacity, while I am conscious of the roll-out of new work within primary and secondary schools, in respect of lifelong learning, it is very important we have the opportunity for communities to learn ISL. I saw a fantastic example of that in Athy, County Kildare, where there is an excellent group, led by Ms Maggie Owens, who is a teacher in Holy Family School for the Deaf. What she has done cross-community and across ages, with young people, children and adults, is fantastic in using and encouraging sign language in a very cool way.

It is about that sort of culture of communities coming together. There is a role for the Department of Education in that lifelong education project and being able to focus on reaching out to communities.

Unfortunately, I was at another committee meeting during the first part of this session. However, at the meeting of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters last week, I heard some of the statements from the group. One of the areas of concern was the lack of data on how children who are deaf or hard of hearing are actually doing in schools, as regards how they are empowered, supported and succeeding in life. An evaluation of the available data is important. I would appreciate hearing any update the officials have on that.

What engagement is there between the Department of Education and the Irish Deaf Society, as a representative disabled people's organisation? That type of consultation work is very important both to the work being done in the Department and, more importantly, to the community.

I acknowledged that we have a new bachelor's degree, which is wonderful, but it is important there is an element of ISL, and support in that regard, in mainstream teacher training. Are there any plans to do that?

Ms Martina Mannion

I thank the Senator. I will ask my colleagues to deal with some of those questions.

The point about a siloed approach and ensuring that Departments and communities are working very closely together is very important. Education is now spread across three Departments. Early education is with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, we are dealing with primary right through to the end of post-primary education, and our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science are working on that whole piece as regards lifelong learning. We work very closely together. Some of the issues we are aware of that arose from our engagement in preparing for today include, for instance, the programme for access to higher education, PATH, funded programmes, supported by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. That fund is valued at more than €30 million, which is used as part of the national plan for equity of access to education. It ensures that all people in targeted groups can participate to the greatest degree possible in further and higher education. The Department intended to have a total fund of €3.6 million for this between 2019 and 2022. That is intended to increase the number of students from underrepresented groups entering initial teacher training and providing more role models for students, which is something that is very important.

On the issue the Senator raised regarding attainment levels for students in our education system, it is important to note that our education system compares very favourably as regards outcomes for literacy and numeracy across the systems. Data have recently been published by the progress in international reading literacy study, PIRLS, and the teacher information management system, TIMS, and we will have the new programme for international student assessment, PISA, results later in 2023. These testing processes include all children in mainstream settings, including children with special educational needs or children who are deaf or hard of hearing. It is a reassurance to the system that a very high-quality system is available and in place to support children. Work on quality assurance also happens at a school and inspectorate level. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Doody, to give an outline of that. We will come back to the Senator separately on the other points she raised.

Mr. Brendan Doody

On quality assurance, a whole structure is in place for schools in respect of school self-evaluation guidelines, which is a process all schools are expected to undertake annually to identify the areas of need in the school, and to address those areas of need by putting measures in place that are then reviewed and so on and so forth. We have provided the Looking at Our School quality framework for all primary and post-primary schools. It is a very important document because it sets out what highly effective practice looks like across a range of domains in the school, namely, leadership, management, teaching and learning.

Included in that would be the school's offer in respect of inclusive practices, etc. However, there is external quality assurance, and that is the role of in the inspectorate as well.

In terms of specific focus on the quality of provision for young people with special educational needs, the inspectorate applies two specific inspection models: one at primary level and one at post-primary level. They are relatively new inspection models. The primary one was introduced in 2016, and the post-primary in 2019. Obviously, there was a big hiatus during the Covid period but in time, we will have a lot of information regarding the quality of provision for young people with special educational needs arising from those inspection models. The composite findings of those inspection models feed into the policymaking function of the Department.

Ms Martina Mannion

Coming back to the other points relating to the importance of mainstream teacher training, that is a critical point in supporting children who are deaf or hard of hearing in our schools. The Teaching Council has asked, under Céim, which is the standards in teacher education, for all higher education institutions to review their initial teacher-training modules to ensure that they meet some of the core competencies, one of which is inclusion. That work is happening at the moment. By the end of this year, the Teaching Council will have further information as to how that has been embedded. It is intended, in that circumstance, that it will then engage further with the Minister as to whether anything further is required.

That is for the initial teacher training. Ongoing continuous professional development, CPD, is also very important because of the fact that we already have teachers in the system who are already working in schools.

CPD is provided through a variety of supports. It is provided by the cohorts of the Professional Development Service for Teachers, PDST, Junior Cycle for Teachers, JCT, and the centres for excellence. It is also separately provided by the NCSE. For example, the council supports events for teaching deaf and hard-of-hearing students. Teacher participation and reactions are gathered and examined, and four groups of teachers are organised according to: deafness and additional need; mild hearing loss; moderate hearing loss; and severe and profound.

CPD was also provided to qualified teachers of the deaf as part of the postgraduate course in special education in some of the colleges, such as UCC and Mary Immaculate College. Members of the visiting teaching service attended the International Congress on the Education of the Deaf that was held in 2021 and a range of resources and professional developments are identified to inform the future education of this. Those are specifically available from the NCSE. In 2021-22, 129 teachers availed of this support by the NCSE.

In addition, on the PDST, the important point is that it recognises that all learners are diverse and that all the supports must be underpinned by the principle of universal design for learning as distinct from universal design for the buildings. That is an important component in ensuring that all professional development for teachers is modelled on this. All of the JCT supports that the CPD has provided outline supports for children in classrooms, including deaf or hard-of-hearing students.

Schools for deaf or hard-of-hearing students participate in whole-school junior cycle CPD. That is facilitated by the junior cycle implementation support team on the level 1 and level 2 learning programmes. There is also junior cycle subject-specific clusters where schools can participate. There is then community of practices and then there is the universal design for learning. There is ongoing engagement.

Ms Martina Mannion

I am sorry.

I thank Ms Mannnion. It is just that we have to finish by 1 o'clock and I want to get in as well.

I ask the officials to give brief answers, if at all possible. Among a number of groups we had in earlier was Chime. It fears the gap widening between the mainstream school and people within the deaf community and the educational attainment not being published. I cannot understand why it is not being published because we can learn a significant amount from the publication of data. Has the Department data to hand on how many people who go to a mainstream school who are deaf or people who go to a school for the deaf go on to complete the leaving certificate? It may be easier to ask the percentage of such students who do not complete their leaving certificate.

Ms Martina Mannion

There are almost 300 children in special schools and classes for children for the deaf. There are approximately 5,300 deaf children being supported by the visiting teacher service and 5,000 of those are in our mainstream settings, between preschool, primary and post-primary. At the moment, we do not gather individual student outcomes at leaving certificate. As the Cathaoirleach will be aware, it is an anonymised process. One has an examination number and one goes through the system. We do not capture the data on individual student attainment.

Are other countries publishing such information?

Ms Martina Mannion

As I say, what we do is gather information across our range of, for example, mainstream, settings and that is published in the likes of the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, PIRLS, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, TIMSS and the Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA, data. That includes children in special education provision, including children who are deaf.

That is wide-ranging.

Ms Martina Mannion

I suppose, but it is important to say that is showing that Ireland compares favourably in terms of educational outcomes for these children.

What I am saying is, specifically, on deaf children, if we are to learn whether we are on a par with other countries and if the people who came before us earlier today are to learn, it is not a big job to be able to evaluate and collate all that information. It would give confidence to children that, for example, 70% of the people are doing the leaving certificate. It is a fault of the Department of Education that we do not do that, specifically, in the case of deaf children, and maybe in the case of blind children as well. I would like the Department of Education to take that on board.

Another big issue that came across was the shortage of personnel providing sign language. How do we compare to our EU counterparts?

Ms Martina Mannion

I have noted what the Cathaoirleach has said in his first point.

In relation to supporting-----

Maybe Ms Mannion would come back to me with an answer on that by way of a written response to the clerk to the committee.

Ms Martina Mannion

We will do that.

On supporting sign language, our class teachers and our special education teachers are the people providing the direct education in our system and our visiting teacher service is also the key support. Our sign language scheme to date has been, prior to the introduction of the new scheme, largely around the home tuition piece. My colleague, Mr. Rogers, went through the numbers of people that the NCSE has been able to secure through the new scheme that we introduced. What we see as a result is the need for greater engagement with our colleagues in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to try to increase the numbers of people with Irish Sign Language in the system. That is something that we are committed to doing because we want to see the scheme that we have introduced being a success in schools. We see the value of it. We see that we will be able to have a structured response to schools embedded in the NCSE. It is part of that whole support structure in the NCSE with visiting teachers, special educational needs organisers, SENOs, team leaders and all of those other support leads. That is why we see the value of it.

We think there is a need to increase it and we will be engaging with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on that.

We probably will have to come back to this issue. My biggest frustration is that there is the HSE, early childhood, primary and secondary education, and third-level education and while I do not want to stigmatise or put these people aside as special people, they are. We are very lucky. I am able to hear Ms Mannion and she is able to hear me. We take it for granted. Many children do not have that comfort. Chime spoke this morning about the frequency modulated, FM, systems. The Irish Deaf Society spoke about early intervention. That comes from the HSE, I presume. Then it goes on to the Department of Education. Then it goes on to early childhood and then primary and secondary education, etc. I do not want to get bogged down in it. We will definitely come back to this issue because I believe there are many questions to be answered. There are many easy issues that can be sorted out for the community.

I have many questions, but I promised a school we had in, namely, Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra, that we would ask about their building. Mr. Kelly has given a reply in that regard, but I will make this matter a priority for this committee. The school in question is currently operating on two separate campuses, which is completely unsatisfactory. I cannot understand it. I am aware that when it comes to special needs education, everything is a need and a priority. Am I correct in saying that there are two schools for the deaf in the country?

Ms Martina Mannion

Yes

We have one in Limerick and one in Dublin. We have special education units right across the country. There is huge investment going into these, which is extremely welcome. We have two schools for the deaf and one of them is operating on two separate campuses. That is ludicrous. If students are to learn from each other, from junior cycle to senior cycle, they need to be together and give each other confidence.

I would ask Mr. Kelly to look at this if at all possible. The planning and building unit will be in before the committee after the summer recess. I ask Mr. Kelly that the planning and building unit make this matter a priority and cut through the red tape in order to see what we can do. It is very easy for me to say that. I am aware that the unit has a job to do. I was a Minister of State and I understand that people on the outside think that this is all very simple, but there is a job to be done. If at all possible, can we cut through the red tape and make this school a priority?

I spoke with a chap called Shane who is in fourth year. These children deserve the very best. I will not ask Mr. Kelly for a reply - I am aware that he has replied to Deputy Clarke - but I ask that he would work with the school and get this over the line as soon as possible. I understand that tendering, planning and everything else must be gone through but I ask that this is made a priority. On another day, I will come back on some of the other questions. The hour is just too short.

Deputy O'Sullivan is next. The Deputy has less than five minutes. I will give him the full five, however.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I apologise for being late. I had a number of other things on. I will keep it brief. I apologise also if I do ask a question that may have been asked earlier.

I was listening to the debate on the way in. Reference was made to the fact that seven out of 20 posts had an application. Is there a geographical imbalance? I know from dealing with some families, especially in the south, that it has been problematic. Will the witnesses highlight the geographical disparities there? Will they also elaborate on why those people were unsuitable candidates? Is it just that they were not fully qualified as per the Department's criteria, or is there an opportunity there for people to gain professional development in the job if they fall short of being placed on the panel?

Mr. Kieran Rogers

To clarify, from the national recruitment campaign, seven candidates were successful. With regard to the geographical spread of those seven, I cannot give the Deputy exact details about the counties because of the general data protection regulation. It is, however, predominantly focused in the east of the country. We ran two pilot campaigns in the south in the context of ISL specialist classroom support. Unfortunately, there was no successful candidate in either case. We also ran a competition for an ISL adviser, which is the broader role for supporting the whole school community rather than working with an individual child. Again, that proved to be unsuccessful.

Mr. Rogers said it was focused in the east of the country. Is it the case that the majority of applicants for those posts were coming from the east?

Mr. Kieran Rogers

The eastern half of the country.

That would tie in with the fact that, historically, this is where the only course was provided up until a certain point in time. Is that in UCD or DCU?

Mr. Kieran Rogers

Perhaps the Deputy is referring to the course at Trinity College Dublin.

Yes, the course at Trinity College Dublin. Given that I am from Cork, I would attend university in either Cork or Limerick. That would follow the trend in this regard. On that basis, are there any plans or has the Department spoken to any stakeholders, be it the National Council for Special Education or the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, or with the Minister, in relation to providing additional courses in universities? Has the Department spoken specifically with any of the colleges?

Ms Martina Mannion

On the first piece, it is important to note that when we were looking at that competency it was not that we were setting the bar so high that people would not be able to get through. There was a specific segment of the interview with an ISL video that was recorded by native ISL user. That person is a member of the deaf community, a qualified teacher and has the Trinity qualification relating to ISL.

This is what the stakeholders had said was required. On that basis, we want to ensure the people who do come through in this space will be able to provide the service that is required.

With regard to increasing the capacity in our further and higher education institutions, this is something that will require engagement with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Colleges are free to commence new programmes or to expand courses if they wish. From talking to our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, we are aware that if any requests for courses of that nature are put forward by any of universities, the Department will look favourably on them and we will work with them on that.

It is important we identify outcomes. This is the first time we have done this direct recruitment, so it is the first time we have an understanding of the outcomes of this process as a result of the national campaign. It will certainly feed into how we look to expand this campaign into the future.

I thank Ms Mannion. Let us say seven candidates for 20 posts continues to be the trend. Is there any capacity there for us to review the criteria that were set down? I understand why the criteria are the way they are. We want the optimum and the best qualified people. If it is the case, however, we just cannot get them, be it for geographical reasons or whatever the case may be, is there a possibility of reviewing that?

Ms Martina Mannion

The Deputy has hit the nail on the head with regard to where we were coming from as a Department. We were very anxious not to pitch it at a particular academic level because we wanted to ensure the competition would get people with fluency and competency, and while they may not necessarily have had a particular level, they could do the job with the children. It is important the great is not the enemy of the good, for want of a better description, and if people with competency are available to do this work, we can facilitate them in doing that. This has very much been the Department's position. Equally, we want to ensure people can get to the proficiency level as a result of the qualification. We see this as a twin-track approach. It is about making sure we can get the people into the schools and into the system as quickly as possible to work with the children and to continue to increase the overall qualification and capacity in the system.

I have one final comment. It is not a question unless the witnesses would like to come back. This happens in every mainstream school in the country that may be looking for a home economics teacher or an Irish teacher. There are people on staff. I was fluent in Irish but never had the accreditation for it. I went back working in the school and got my qualifications subsequent to that. I would rather this route could be considered as opposed to having no jobs filled.

Ms Martina Mannion

Absolutely. We fully agree with the Deputy's position.

I have one further question. There are two schools for the deaf in the country. I have three children but I do not have a deaf child. If I had a deaf son or daughter, however, and if I wanted to send them to a dedicated school for the deaf, one school is based in Limerick and one is based in Dublin. If a child, for example, is going into junior infants and the family is from Wexford, what opportunities are there?

Ms Martina Mannion

If we look at how we support all of our children in schools, it is in that continuum of support. We would say in the first instance that, generally speaking, and I say that in broad brush strokes, it is better for children to be educated in a mainstream setting with supports. Those 19,000 special education teachers are there and dedicated to supporting those children. The step up from that is a special class. There are 25 special classes in the country, including one in Wexford, one in Roscommon, one in Offaly, two in Limerick, one in Laois, two in Kerry, three in Galway, ten in Cork, and two in Cavan. We are opening new special classes as needed. We have opened 11 new special classes in recent years. If there is a need for additional special classes, we will open those special classes. There are 85 children in those primary classes and 37 children in those post-primary classes, which is 122 overall in those classes. We are very willing. I have been here before with the Deputy in this committee talking about the number of special classes we have opened in recent years. We have increased this by hundreds of percent across all areas. We are willing and committed to open the special classes as needed. We see the benefit of that because it allows the child to access the mainstream provision with their peers, in their localities, and with their brothers, sisters and neighbours. If parents are willing to consider that as an option, we would see that as potentially offering them the availability of the additional supports and training within the special class setting without having to leave their local areas. That is our preferred option. We acknowledge that parents choose, in cases, to send children to special schools and we will resource and support those schools as best as resources will allow. We are willing to support those schools to continue to grow and expand and to open as many special classes as otherwise needed.

I commend the Department on special education but there are specifics within that that need to be addressed. On the education theme, the publication is very important and we will come back to it again.

We will have conclude because the interpreters have to be in the Dáil at 2 p.m. and need their lunch. I thank the officials for coming before us today and I thank the previous witnesses who were before us. It was a very productive briefing and of great importance to the work we are doing. I also thank our sign language interpreters who have done a fantastic job today. Their work and the help and assistance they have given the deaf community is very much appreciated.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.11 p.m sine die.
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