Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 3 Oct 2023

Current and Future Plans of the School Building Unit: Department of Education

An Cathaoirleach

Are the minutes of the meeting of 26 September 2023 agreed? Agreed. I remind members to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because they may interfere with the broadcasting equipment of the Houses, even on silent mode.

On behalf of the committee, from the Department of Education I welcome: Mr. Hubert Loftus, assistant secretary with the planning and building unit; Mr. Murty Hanly, principal officer with the planning and building unit; Ms Áine Cusack, principal officer with the planning and building unit; Mr. Mark Kelly, technical manager with the planning and building unit, Ms Martina Mannion, assistant secretary and head of special education and inclusion; and Mr. Martin McLoughlin, principal officer with the special education unit. The officials are here to brief the committee on the current and future plans of the school building unit, with specific reference to the new building for the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra, Dublin 7, representatives of which appeared before the committee a number of months ago, progress on providing autism spectrum disorder, ASD, units in primary schools, new and replacement secondary schools, the conversation of existing accommodation for autism classes, a general overview of new modular builds and the intended duration thereof, sports facilities, halls and multipurpose rooms, Department of Education involvement in school car parking and traffic management solutions, siting of schools in terms of transport and mobility issues, current and future climate action plans, including the siting of schools in the context of transport emissions, the exact placement of school extension or prefab buildings within the footprint of school grounds and the prioritisation or conservation of recreational sports facilities. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Loftus to make a brief opening statement. This will be followed by questions by committee members, who have six-minute slots to ask questions and for witnesses to respond. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website later today.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity inside or outside of the Houses in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Mr. Loftus has five minutes in which to make his opening statement.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the committee for inviting us to provide a briefing on our current and future plans for school infrastructure, including the specific topics referred to by the committee in its invitation. In order to assist the discussions, I have provided an appendix to my submission dealing with the specific topics raised by the committee. I will use the opportunity of the opening statement to provide a high-level overview on our work which may also assist the committee in our discussions.

We have done a lot of work over the last five years on reviewing and streamlining our systems, processes and procedures so we are better positioned to deliver on the ambitions set out in the national development plan, NDP, which is the key guide for our work and direction of travel. The strategic initiatives and reforms we have put in place and continue to put in place are focused on enabling us to plan and deliver in a more strategic and co-ordinated manner. The NDP sets out the national priorities for the school building programme. Key priorities under the National Development Plan 2021-2030 include continuing to cater for additional capacity requirements; provision of accommodation for special classes with a particular emphasis on ramping up provision at post-primary level to facilitate a smooth transition from primary level; delivering on the climate action agenda and integrating, where possible, the modernisation of existing school infrastructure; and strengthening the asset management and maintenance regime across schools.

We have a strong track record of delivery. Nearly 900 school building projects were completed during the period 2018 to 2022. We have a variety of delivery mechanisms including our design and build programme, employer-led design programmes, devolved programmes and modular accommodation programme. Across all of our programmes there is a strong emphasis on the use of modern methods of construction, which is consistent with the Government’s overall direction of travel in this area. Through Project Ireland 2040, we are investing in excess of €5 billion over the period 2021 to 2025 to add capacity and develop and upgrade school facilities across the country for the almost 1 million students and over 100,000 staff who learn and work in our schools every day. We are conscious of the Government's strong support for investment in education, including through supplementary funding in addition to NDP allocations. We continue to have a strong pipeline of projects for delivery under the school building programme, which involves circa 300 projects at construction in 2023, of which over 40 are new school buildings. These 300 projects at construction in 2023 involve a total State investment of over €1 billion. There are also 72 projects currently at the tender process, including a further 27 new school buildings. All these new school buildings are flagship projects in their area and transform the education infrastructure for those school communities. In addition, in excess of 35,000 sq. m of additional capacity is being provided at schools across the country through our modular programme. This is equivalent in size terms to more than three new 1,000-pupil post-primary schools.

The Department uses its geographical information system, GIS, and works closely with key stakeholders such as the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, patron bodies, local authorities, individual schools, etc., to plan for additional capacity requirements across the school system to ensure there are a sufficient number of school places in a town or area for all children. In this regard, it is very important that enrolments are aligned with existing capacity across schools to the greatest extent possible. The Department’s planning and building unit liaises closely with relevant patrons to ensure a strategic and co-ordinated approach is taken to managing enrolments and maximising existing capacity both at individual school level and across a town or area.

Co-ordination between schools in managing enrolment processes is very important. It helps to ensure that duplicate applications are identified at an early stage and that net additional accommodation requirements are identified early so that accommodation solutions can be put in place. All of this work supports and facilitates more than 960,000 primary and post-primary students in our school system, including more than 15,500 children from Ukraine and just over 26,000 children with additional needs, who are enrolled in close to 3,000 special classes and in 130 special schools. Planning for additional capacity requirements for September 2024 and September 2025 is well advanced. It is envisaged that these capacity requirements will be primarily managed through the completion of the circa 300 school building projects currently in construction and supplemented with additional capacity provided as part of the modular accommodation programme. Beyond 2025, our approach will be to continue to ensure that we manage the pipeline of existing projects so that we target and prioritise the areas under greatest pressure to keep pace with housing roll-out. Delivery continues to be managed in a challenging construction sector environment.

The climate action agenda is also central to the Department’s strategic planning. We have a very challenging target of a 51% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 and net zero by 2050. This means optimising the use of our existing building stock and school sites, moving towards fully decarbonised solutions in cases in which new projects are essential and maximising opportunities for active travel and use of public transport. I am conscious that there is a special education dimension to some of the topics the committee wishes to discuss today. Both my colleague Ms Mannion and I would like to reassure the committee that the Department is working closely with the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to plan strategically for special class requirements at primary and post-primary level. This is making a real difference for parents of children with additional needs and we place a very strong emphasis on maximising opportunities for integration and inclusion. There are now close to 3,000 special classes in our primary and post-primary schools. Given the scale of needs, we envisage that all post-primary schools will have an average of at least four special classes over time. As already indicated, I have included an appendix to my opening statement which sets out the high-level position in relation to each of the specific topics the committee wishes to discuss at our meeting today. I hope the committee finds this helpful and that it will help in dealing with any issues of concern for members. I thank the Chair.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I thank our guests this morning for coming in and giving their time to the committee. It is hugely beneficial. Something that struck me in the appendix was that, when it comes to physical education, 95% of post-primary schools have or have access to a hall. Some 72.5% of primary schools have or have access to a general purpose, GP, space. What percentage of schools have access to nurture spaces? What is the plan for primary and post-primary schools that do not have access at all to those spaces? One issue is consistently brought to my attention, particularly by parents. When they go onto the Department of Education's website, it is incredibly difficult to find the school planning areas, SPAs. We know the relatively common nature of people moving from one side of the country to the other to relocate or perhaps for work, whatever the case may be. Will the Department provide the committee with a definitive link to the school planning areas which is not a generic link to the Department of Education's website?

Another issue consistently brought to my attention in relation to the school planning areas is that the location of school buildings within those areas is often not conducive to the catchment area of the schools. I will give a very specific example. In Ballyogan, there is a school to the extreme right of the school planning area. Children in the adjacent estate have no access to the school because the catchment area runs to the left of the map, while the school is situated on the right. Has the Department examined this? How common is it? What is the plan to address it? Mr. Loftus spoke about a strategic and co-ordinated approach to this, which will be absolutely critical, particularly as access to higher education changes somewhat. In terms of buildings that cater for both further and post-primary education, what are the plans for those buildings to be separated into two distinct areas?

At the moment, there are a number where there are adult learners in the same building as post-primary learners.

I briefly raise the issue of Gaelscoileanna. Looking at the numbers of those who have been educated through Irish in recent years, the numbers that are in aonaid are increasing but the provision of Gaelcholáistí is not. Will the witnesses outline what the plan is for that? In the past ten years, the percentage of children attending Irish-medium primary school has barely changed at all while the number of children attending Irish-medium aonaid with a larger English-medium school has steadily increased. The reason I bring this up is because Irish schools, Gaelscoileanna, were shown in the recent report to be one of the most overcrowded classrooms in the country.

The provision of spaces for special educational needs, SEN, and autism spectrum disorder, ASD, were mentioned. They are absolutely welcome and very much needed.

Regarding schools that may be of an age, shall we say, where there is a need for adaptation for a child or children who may have a physical disability or mobility issue, how does that fit in to Department’s remit?

What is the key focus for the Department in respect of library spaces in the short term?

Currently, to the best of my knowledge, there is no mechanism for a school that is providing cold meals to change to hot meals. If that policy were to change, where does the Department's expertise come in to provide that space for a school that wants to provide hot meals rather than cold meals?

Regarding the work the Department is undertaking and the job of work that lies head in the next few years, how is it getting the skilled professionals it needs? How is the engagement with the principals and the asks of the principals changing and how do the witnesses see it changing into the future?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The Deputy asked quite a range of questions. We will answer them as best we can and I will bring in some colleagues as well.

Regarding PE halls and general purpose, GP, rooms, the Deputy quoted percentages and we outlined them in the appendix to our note. Delivery on PE halls is an ambition under the national development plan, NDP. There is quite a high percentage already there. Some 80% have a PE hall, 10% have access to a PE hall and a pipeline of projects will add to those percentages. There is then a residual piece we have to do. Managing that along with the other wider range of priorities we have will be an ambition as part of NDP, roll-out.

Regarding nurture spaces, we do not specifically have an overall handle on what is out there in the school system. However, we can take note of the issue the Deputy raised.

There are 314 school planning areas and, subject to there being no technical reasons we cannot do so, we will provide a clear and accurate link to them.

Just to be aware as well, as part of the whole modernisation of the planning building unit, we have done much work in geographic information systems, GIS. When we look at planning, what is needed where and when, how it is to be delivered and all of that, we use our GIS to get a more defined picture of the level of need and where it is needed so we are not just conscious purely of a particular school planning area and so on.

The Deputy mentioned the issue of the location of schools within school planning areas and referenced Ballyogan. I am not aware of the specifics of that but where we have needs in a school planning area, we first see whether we can manage those within the existing school infrastructure, such as adding capacity extensions to existing schools. We also look at whether there are large sites that may create campus opportunities and things such as that as well. Another part of the mix is when we have to buy a site and build a school. South Dublin is probably one of our more difficult areas. Many areas are quite difficult and challenging but it can be particularly so in south Dublin.

Invariably, when looking at a site, we are looking at what is available, what represents the earliest opportunity to deliver on a need and how best to manage that.

In terms of co-located facilities in a building for further education and post-primary provision, a few years back we were all the Department of Education, which included science and skills, so we had all of that within our mix. Now, it is separated out into two Departments and the two Departments are working together to see how best that is managed down at the individual school level. We are conscious, from a Department of Education perspective on the post-primary element, particularly where we have to expand that and add facilities such as special classes, that we look to how best the further education and training, FET, element can be addressed in that context. The direction of travel within the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is very much about creating centres of excellence in the whole area of further education and training rather than necessarily having it too dispersed across individual post-primary schools.

With regard to Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí, when we were last before the committee, we provided some information in that regard, and I can ask Ms Cusack to add to that. A good bit of that comes back to the level of demand in the areas. We support Irish-medium provision and we have a range of initiatives in place to do that. To take Gaelcholáistí as an example, whereas typically our new English-medium post-primary schools are 1,000 pupil, the threshold for satisfying a need for Irish-medium schools is 400, which is part of our proactive efforts to support provision.

I am also conscious that if we look across the primary sector and take Gaelscoileanna at primary level, quite a number of schools generally are undersubscribed, including Gaelscoileanna, so it is not necessarily the case that where there are Gaelscoileanna, they are automatically oversubscribed. Quite a percentage of them are undersubscribed.

An Cathaoirleach

Excuse me. I am aware of the time of other members. I will ask Ms Cusack to come in to reply to the Deputy.

Ms Áine Cusack

I acknowledge that a lot of work is ongoing in the Department and there have been consultations with stakeholders in recent months in terms of Irish language policy and how we can meet our targets for increased provision of Irish-medium education. There are a number of strands to that and, of course, the aonaid play an important role too. As Mr. Loftus referenced, while some Gaelscoileanna are oversubscribed, there are other Gaelscoileanna, no more than other schools of all types around the country, that are not oversubscribed and have capacity. We will be looking at it in the round.

Senator Fiona O'Loughlin

I welcome Mr. Loftus, Ms Mannion and their colleagues from the Department. Having been in a number of the new school buildings around the country, I know they are top class and very different from the schools I would have gone to myself, although those were very good schools. It is wonderful to see the level of ambition we now have in terms of school buildings and making sure they have the facilities that are needed in the modern age.

I thank the witnesses for the update that I asked for in regard to schools in Rathangan, Milltown, Newbridge and the Magee Barracks school in Kildare. I accept this discussion is at a national level and that we are not necessarily getting into specifics. On that basis, with regard to where we are now, there are a few questions I want to put to the witnesses, and these are mainly around the area of inflation.

As we know from a recent article in The Irish Times, there was concern that 58 school projects would be delayed because of funding pressures, although they were due to go to tender or construction this year. I want to focus on the central arrangements that are in place to deal with inflation.

If we need school buildings, we obviously need them now. It is incredibly unfortunate that we have a situation where inflation has gone up so much, but we want to ensure that building projects go ahead. I ask the officials to fill me in on that.

I will touch on the need for all schools to have PE halls, etc. School labs are also important. The committee previously recommended that every school should have a library. We see a library as essential to any school. The increase in hot meals, which is very welcome, means there have to be catering facilities. It is clear that we need to keep developing. How do the officials make those decisions and incorporate them?

Some schools, when they are offered modular buildings as opposed to just the standard type of construction, are concerned that it may not be up to the same standard. Will the officials outline the difference between modular and the standard, traditional build?

When the Department is looking at the need for a new school in an area, I am concerned that some primary schools are not feeder schools into any secondary schools. That is a problem at Milltown, just outside Newbridge, which is an area under very high pressure, as the officials are aware. I have no doubt there is now a need to start planning for a new primary school there. I am concerned, however, that a primary school in a small village that does not have a secondary school is not a feeder school into any secondary school in the area. That is a problem. How do we address it?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Senator for her comments about the very good work being done across the school building programme.

On inflation, we are living in a challenging construction sector environment. Wider impacts are affecting the entire construction sector, including the impacts of the war in Ukraine that are still following through, some issues relating to Brexit, general supply chain issues and so on. We dealt with that as part of updating our guidance on the basic building cost for schools. We increased that by 21% to cover the inflation period from April 2021 to May 2022. That reflected tender outcomes. Earlier this year, we had funding pressures we had to manage. Although we get allocations from the Government under the national development plan, I am conscious of those inflationary pressures and the scale of needs facing us as regards projects, urgent needs in special education, etc. That created particular funding pressures.

In fairness to the Government and our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, those pressures were recognised and additional funding was made available to help ensure a smooth, albeit prioritised, programme to deliver on those. The projects that were paused have all progressed. A cohort of those were due to go to construction and they are essentially at construction. Those that were due to go to tender are out to tender and will be going to construction. That has all been positive and helpful. Funding pressures reflect the fact that the planning building unit in the Department has a strong delivery programme, which adds its own pressures.

I will take the issues relating to PE halls, libraries, school labs and hot meals as a group. Our job in the planning building unit is to manage these pressures, prioritise them as best we can and, in terms of solutions, work them around the allocations we have to meet and other needs we have to mention. I referenced PE halls in response to Deputy Clarke. I will ask Ms Cusack to come in on libraries and hot meals.

On the questions around modular and traditional building, modular is just reflecting the direction of travel with modern methods of construction. That is the direction the industry is going in. As head of the planning and building unit, I want to make sure the school sector is not behind the curve in utilising the opportunities that come with that in terms of delivering additional capacity. Looking at the housing sector, for example, up to 50% of new houses can be timber frame construction, which is a form of modular construction. Equally, in our design and build programme, there is a lot of precast concrete, which is a modern method of construction. Ultimately, we have technical guidance. That guidance operates irrespective of whether it is a traditional build or modular build. Modular builds, and I have been in them, are really positive. We get great feedback from schools. It is a lot different from what we might have described as prefabs or things like that back in the old days. We see it as an important method for us in adding capacity into the school system.

The Senator referred to Newbridge and the primary school feeding into post-primary schools and new schools. That is something we can look at, but, ultimately, the sort of local arrangements that operate around enrolments and admissions processes are managed more at local and patron level. I might let Ms Cusack come in on some of this.

Ms Áine Cusack

To pick up on the reference to the libraries and the PE halls, as Mr. Loftus would have said, our priority first and foremost is the additional capacity and the huge demands that are there. The Senator will have seen the significant investment that is going into towns like Newbridge, Kildare and elsewhere in providing school places and special classes. We will have a significant ramping-up at post-primary level of special classes over the next number of years as well. There are a number of significant draws on our capital funding. PE halls remain an ambition under the NDP, as Mr. Loftus has just outlined. Libraries are provided with all large-scale new school buildings and extensions, be it at primary or post-primary level, and there are opportunities in some of our primary schools that perhaps have vacant classrooms as demographics decline. Many schools repurpose the spaces for whatever needs they may wish to address within their own community.

In the context of primary schools feeding into post-primary schools, the Senator will be aware that post-primary schools set their admissions policies. It is within their remit to give priority to certain schools within the provisions of the legislation. What we do is work with the patrons in each area to make sure that overall, there are sufficient places available across all the schools to meet all the needs for the children in that wider area. We have been engaging with the likes of Scoil Bhríde in Milltown in the context of its special classes and we have had some really productive engagement with that school. Our view for that school and other schools is that we must ensure there are sufficient first year places across the schools in the area. The policies of those individual post-primary schools in terms of categories and prioritisation are, under the legislation, a matter for themselves but our role through co-ordination of patrons and schools is to ensure there is a place for every child. We will continue to engage patrons in that respect.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Loftus may come back in briefly. I am aware of other members who are waiting.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I just wanted to ask Ms Cusack to respond on the hot meals issue as well, which was raised by Deputy Clarke and Senator O'Loughlin.

Ms Áine Cusack

I will keep it brief. I acknowledge that announcements have been made and we are working with colleagues in that respect. There are a number of avenues to facilitate the provision of hot meals in schools that do not necessarily require facilities on site. Obviously, we will be working with colleagues and schools to facilitate what is a very positive objective and very positive step forward for schools across the country.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a similar question. If a school wants to have catering or kitchen facilities because it sees it as better value financially and believes there will be a better quality of food if it is cooked on site, has it got that option? I heard about a school on RTÉ Radio 1 a couple of months ago.

I am not sure, it could have been a devolved grant. They went off by themselves and say they are getting better value for the taxpayer and better quality food cooked on site. Is that an option?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Our approach is to try to keep it simple and straightforward, and if schools want hot or cold school meals, to have them delivered to those schools. There is a lot of pressure and workload on school principals. We want them to be leaders of teaching and learning, rather than managing kitchen facilities in a school. Kitchen facilities bring with them a wider element of regulation, which is something about which we would be cautious.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I was not here for the presentation. I may have a different view than others on the nature of schools, in that we have too many of them. There are 4,000 schools this country, which has a population similar to that of Manchester. At primary level, there are junior schools, senior schools, girls schools, boys schools, Catholic schools, schools of every other religion you can think of, Gaelscoils and Educate Together schools. It is the responsibility of the Department of Education to house all of these schools. Throughout my political lifetime, I have been trying to deal with schools seeking improvements. The Department is trying to improve as it goes. Some of the schools I deal with need major revamps. They do not have basic sanitation available in certain rooms. Even infants have to go down the corridor to a toilet.

We are all familiar with the conversation about prefabricated buildings and so on. I do not expect a comment on this, but I do want to put it on record. On the broader scale, we need to have a helicopter view of our school system and we need to think about it differently. It is frustrating that there are four different primary schools in a particular geographical area - a junior girls, a junior boys, a senior boys and a senior girls - that are all seeking approval for building projects. They are all close to each other, but all completely independent. They have separate principals and boards of management. That certainly impacts on the kind of resources that can be provided.

What kind of inspection routine does the Department have? Does it proactively go to schools to carry out fire audits and see what kinds of improvements are needed? Is the Department always depending on boards of management to contact it? I feel the patronage model is letting the school system down. Just as with Covid, what happens is that the Department provides a sum of money and expects to schools to apply for it rather than proactively contacting schools to ask what they needs. That is not the system we have. Effectively, we do not have a State education system. In Finland, there is one school per geographical area and that is it. There is then the bizarre scenario of schools here having to raise money for whatever kind of units they want, and pressure on the parents associations to come up with the money. It is a bizarre circle, and it is not sustainable anymore. That is my first point.

Is there a proactive way of interacting with and inspecting schools, rather than responding to the board of management? Can the Department say that in 2023 it is not acceptable that an infant has to leave his or her class and be accompanied down the corridor to go to the toilet, that classes in a particular school have been taking place in a prefab for 27 years, that the windows are so high in a classroom or that classrooms are not properly insulated? Is the Department always dependent on boards of management contacting it? If that is the case, schools in more advantaged areas will always do better. On the boards of management in such schools, there will be an architect, a barrister or, God help us, a politician. Other boards of management will not have that.

My second question relates to the particular case of Gaelcholáiste Reachrann, a second level school in Donaghmede. If anybody were to visit and engage with that school community, you would wonder how they have kept faith at all in any system that supposedly exists to empower their educational experience. Generations of children have gone through that school, which operations out of dilapidated, unsafe and depressing prefabricated buildings.

They have gone through every single process you can think of to enhance the situation, but it is an embarrassment whenever a political representative visits because there does not seem to be a shift, a move, a process or a day people can look towards and say by that stage everything will have been enhanced.

Those are my contributions. One is on how the Department proactively engages with schools. Does it wait for schools to come to it, which I feel is unfair, or does the Department go out and contact and demand of boards of management that they have better oversight of the health and safety implications? I understand, and maybe Mr. Loftus can correct me on this, that if the fire safety officer was to walk into half the schools in the country, they would not be allowed to open the next day. Mr. Loftus can contradict me on that but that has always been my understanding.

My second question is, fundamentally, in the case of Gaelcholáiste Reachrann in Donaghmede, at what point will we enhance the education experience for those young people and the staff, who need it?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The Deputy's first, more general question is a valid question to ask. Traditionally, the approach has been to rely on schools coming to the Department with their issues and us dealing with them as best we can within the parameters available to us. More generally, as part of the reforms we are doing in the planning building unit, we are moving into a more proactive regime. There are a number of elements to that. It is not just related to conditions. Looking at the whole area of special needs and adding special needs capacity into the system, that is primarily driven by the Department and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, identifying needs, co-ordinating where best to deliver them, and then contacting schools on it as distinct from asking schools to put their hands up. That is just one example of that.

As for condition issues and things like that, the direction of travel as to where this will best get addressed is as part of the climate agenda and rolling out the decarbonisation programme. As part and parcel of that we have commenced doing an inventory of an energy audit of schools which picks up on condition issues in schools. The schools across five counties have been done as regards that and we envisage the balance of those to be done over the course of 2024-2025. That will give us the full complete picture of condition issues across the school estate. That will then enable us, particularly with a climate lens but it is relevant otherwise as well, to focus where best to target that investment, if we have for example €50 million, €100 million or whatever million euros on the climate side of things, irrespective of what school it is and not necessarily relying on that school. That is just one aspect of that.

Another relevant element is in terms of patrons and we will now link in more strategically with patrons as regards identifying issues so we are not just relying on individual schools. I do not agree with the Deputy's comments on fire safety issues. We certainly do a lot of work in that area. There is an emergency work scheme for any school that has particular concerns. It is an area that we also have-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Do the schools contact the Department if they have a concern? The Department does not go and inspect.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We do not inspect schools but looking at the school building programme and the scale and extent of it, there are professional design teams and consultants in an awful lot of schools at any given time, which also provides opportunities, beyond an individual school principal, to identify any particular issues as well.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Can I interrupt Mr. Loftus, and I am sorry, Chair; I know I am way over my time. Does the Department do something like a play space audit? I will give an example. It is not the case anymore, but the school I spent 11 years in did not have a yard. Children went home for lunch and they used to cross a very busy thoroughfare to go home for lunch. These were primary school children. Mr. Loftus spoke about the carbon audit and that is completely legitimate and laudable, but does the Department have a play space audit? If you go by a school, how do you know it is a school? The children are playing. Are there things like that in the mindset of the building unit of the Department? It allows the children to play at school. I found it unbelievable that I was teaching in a school where there was no capacity for the children to play and they had to go home for lunch.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, absolutely. A lot of things can be on our minds and we can have a lot of ambitions, but we also have to be realistic about what we have to manage and work with in terms of the existing school estate, and the size and constraints of sites, particularly in central Dublin. We maximise those wherever we can. Equally, we have some examples of schools that have play facilities on the roof as part of new schools projects, etc., where there are particular site constraints to manage. We focus on solutions when there are opportunities to do so but we must be realistic about what we can manage and can achieve.

We can come back directly to the Deputy on Gaelcholáiste Reachrann.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Yes.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Certainly we did some emergency works there and we have a very advanced project in the pipeline.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome all of the officials from the Department of Education. It was great to hear the update from Mr. Loftus that the Department provides for "almost 1 million students and over 100,000 staff," which make us realise the mammoth task achieved by the Department.

I acknowledge the speed with which additional accommodation is provided, as I have seen in my own area. I represent the Roscommon-Galway area and I am based in Ballinasloe. I have seen what has been done in terms of additional accommodation and its speedy delivery.

Mr. Loftus mentioned modular units using precast concrete and timber frames. The units are of extremely high specifications. Anyone who has seen the units that have been added to schools has been very impressed with their quality.

As the witnesses are probably aware, I have raised a number of issues last week and this week. Last week in the Seanad, I tabled a Commencement matter on school capacity in the Ballinasloe town area. Some of Mr. Loftus's team may have seen that. I will give a very brief overview. As the Department will be very aware, there are three primary schools in Ballinasloe. Scoil an Chroí Naofa is probably the very first subject I spoke to the Department about when I became a Senator. I have been a Senator for three years and the project has only now had its planning approved by Galway County Council and the attached conditions were quite stringent. Recently I spoke to the school's principal and the board of management. The design team is submitting this matter to the Department for review. Even if a green light is given to everything, it will take three years for the school to be built. The school has 300 students and 36 children are on its waiting list so the school is urgently required. People have waited 27 years, since the schools were amalgamated, for the school to be built. I am sure the Department is fully aware of this.

I enjoyed hearing about how many schools are not needed in Dublin. We need a hell of a lot of schools in regional areas because our population is growing. We have a high population in my area. The first school I mentioned, Scoil an Chroí Naofa, has 36 children on its waiting list and 300 students attending. It will take three years for a new school to be built. The school will also have to decant all of its students and teachers when the new build starts. At our second primary school, Creagh National School, two additional classrooms were awarded funding over the summer, which is very welcome. The school has 440 pupils and there are 23 children on its waiting list. The third primary school is the Gaelscoil, which recently was granted DEIS status along with Scoil an Chroí Naofa, which is DEIS 1. The Gaelscoil takes children from all over County Galway and the surrounding counties.

I have a few questions for Mr. Loftus, the first of which relates to the priority commitment in terms of the Department of Education reviewing what the design team submits for the new build. I ask that this is progressed with Galway County Council and deemed a priority project for the start of 2024. We can take it that the next number of months will be spent reviewing the design. We have worked so hard and there are many stringent planning conditions. I ask for Mr. Loftus's team to focus on this matter.

Last week, as part of my Commencement matter in the Seanad, I asked for a meeting to be arranged between the school planning unit. The Ballinasloe school planning area consists of 17 schools. Eglish National School is a small school with principal and 23 students. Fifteen of the 23 children are from a Traveller background and six from two refugee families who hope to settle in Ballinasloe. That does not take into account that 100 additional social housing units that will come on stream. According to the last census, we have 534 children under the age of four in the locality. I am at a loss about where they will go. There are six children from two refugee families in schools in Ballinasloe. I know that Mr. Loftus is probably aware of this matter.

Again, I request that a meeting be held between the school planning section in the Department of Education, the GIS teams and the educational welfare officers who I know from speaking with the manager are stressed. The parents are stressed. They have acknowledged the strain in the Ballinasloe townland area. I ask for support for this, for the school principals in that area and for those three national schools but also for the schools in the surrounding area namely, Killure, Ahascragh and Clontuskert, and in Moore, Newtown and Creagh in County Roscommon. They have all indicated they are at full capacity. What are we going to do when we have additional students when September comes? I cannot say that I have a plan. I want the Department to tell me what the plan is and how we are going to support those families.

In regard to special schools, St. Teresa’s special school in Ballinasloe has four additional classrooms, two of which were opened two years ago and two more are coming on stream now. This is wonderful. How does the Department, under planning and building, link in with transport? The issues here are that when we do not have capacity, like that bus that has to bring children to Eglish that the Department is going to review, how does it link in to say to them, "There is no capacity in the town". We need to get bus capacity to support these children. How does the Department link in to that? In the case of St. Teresa’s, we now have children in Loughrea, Gort and Tuam with extreme, complex to severe, special needs, who cannot go to class at the moment. I know there are severe pressures but how do we support and how does the Department link in to that?

In regard to Castleblakeney National School-----

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, I will pull you up for a moment. I do not expect the building unit to know the specifics of a programme because, in fairness and in defence of the witnesses, we brought them in to discuss a list of ten items. I ask members not to get into specifics but more on policy around the specifics-----

Senator Aisling Dolan

The first two items are so the Department of Education can engage in terms of commitment.

An Cathaoirleach

If there are specifics, and Mr. Loftus or his colleagues do not have the reply, I ask that they reply to the clerk of the committee who can then pass it onto the members.

Senator Aisling Dolan

Can I finish?

An Cathaoirleach

I want to be fair to everybody, including the members.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I understand. Castleblakeney National School is a new school build. Due to length of time and severe health and safety issues it requested four additional accommodation classrooms. It now appears that has been mixed up. I wish to get clarity on St. Cuan's College in Castleblakeney.

Last week I raised the solar panels, the climate action fund and the Department of Education. This may come under Mr. Hanly's technical area. In regard to the climate action fund and solar panels, Mr. Hanly talked about climate action. What is being done? When will that be rolled out? Some 5% of primary schools and 10% of secondary school have solar panels. How can teachers apply for this? Are there limits for schools when they apply for these projects? There should be no limit on what they can apply for, if something is going to be opened up shortly in regard to solar panels.

An Cathaoirleach

We have a whistle-stop tour of the constituency. Can we answer the solar panels questions first? That is the policy issue.

Senator Aisling Dolan

School capacity is a major issue for us.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely, it is for everybody in this room. However, the solar panels issue is a policy question. We will deal with that first and then briefly answer the Senator. I am trying to be fair to everyone.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Senator for her questions. On solar panels we have had a good deal of engagement with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications in regard to the practicalities around this issue. The funding is being drawn down from the climate action fund and there are mechanics around it. We are working that through. This afternoon I am going to a meeting to work through some of the final arrangements around that.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I take it, therefore, that it will open shortly.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

No doubt our Ministers will work through the detail of that and will make an announcement in due course. The area falls under the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, and the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan. We are certainly conscious of getting that rolled out. Working that through will be a multi-annual programme. It is an important measure and part of our climate agenda.

In regard to the other questions raised by the Senator, I am conscious of the issues. Scoil an Chroí Naofa is a long-running saga that has been caught up in traffic management and planning issues for quite a while. I am aware that the green light has come through from a planning permission perspective. We are conscious of that. In regard to that and the other particular schools mentioned, we are conscious that they are important projects.

They are particularly important to local representatives.

Senator Aisling Dolan

And to families in those areas.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, the school communities. However, in my job as head of the planning and building unit, I have a remit that spans 4,000 schools, so I have to balance all of them when managing needs. We are conscious of schools' needs, though, and our overarching objective is to ensure every child has a school place.

The Department has done a great deal of work with the education and training board, ETB, sector and other areas on setting up and co-ordinating regional education and language teams, REALTs, to manage the impact of so many Ukrainian children entering our schools. REALTs are useful structures locally for helping to manage some enrolment capacity pressures, including the issue the Senator raised. Educational welfare officers, EWOs, are part of those teams and ETBs are linking in. We also have a direct link into those teams.

The Senator raised the issue of buses to St. Teresa's Special School. I might ask my colleague Ms Mannion to comment.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly, as we have gone over the ten-minute mark.

Ms Martina Mannion

As the Senator knows, we are focusing strategically on increasing capacity across our special schools. We have seven special schools in Galway catering for more than 300 students. We are trying to ensure we do not just increase capacity but also that we do so strategically throughout the county so that children do not have to travel long distances. We are conscious children are travelling long distances at the moment to attend special schools. We have a particular focus on this issue. A review of the school transport scheme is under way. More than €338 million has been spent on the scheme, with a significant percentage of that spent on transport for children with special educational needs. The scheme is a combination of transport directly to schools and grant payments to parents if, for whatever reason, children are not able to access bus transport or need more bespoke arrangements. Many of the children attending special schools require bespoke arrangements. We are conscious of these issues and ensuring we have capacity.

An Cathaoirleach

Next are Senator Flynn and Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Senator Eileen Flynn

We have the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and the Department of Education. Trying to get something done for a school is often complicated. I must use an example I know best, if that is okay. St. Mary's National School in Ardara needs a zebra crossing. It is a lovely little school that is the heart of the community for the town's children. It is expanding every year and has brilliant teachers. We have tried hard, as has Deputy Pringle, to get a zebra crossing for outside the school. This is a major health and safety problem for the children. Before and after school, teachers walk children across if there are ten or 12 going to school by themselves. I would like to know more about who is responsible for safety at road crossings. Usually, they are handled as part of the building work.

For the past three years I have been involved with it, Donegal ETB has worked hard. It now has to face issues with mica, with many schools in Donegal and beyond being affected. What is the Department doing to ensure these schools are safe?

One of my colleagues spoke about prefabs. They are not fit for long-term use. They should only be used for five to ten years tops. In many cases they are used for additional special classes. A few months ago, Loreto Secondary School in Letterkenny got an ASD unit. That was welcome. In Donegal and elsewhere in rural Ireland, we hear stories of it taking some children as much as two hours to get to their special schools.

We should not accept that. Again, the question of responsibility is not clear. On the crèche in Ardara, we recognise the early schooling of our children as education but, if there is an issue with the crèche, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is responsible. Many schools in Donegal are having their buildings tested for mica. What is going to happen there? Who has responsibility? Does the Department know how many schools in Donegal are impacted by mica? What is the solution?

On transport and Traveller education, a school is more than bricks and mortar. The buildings are part of it but we need services. We can leave that as a story for another day if the witnesses prefer. On the capacity and the numbers of children in the schools, in 2010, Traveller education was cut by 86%. I was one of a number of young people in Labre Park to complete a leaving certificate in 2008 because we had transport. We were able to get the bus to school in the morning and home from school afterwards. That service to bring children from the Traveller community to school has been cut by 100%. Is there any update on that? Is there any way to get some of that funding back to get children from disadvantaged areas to school because, in many cases, transport is a very big obstacle preventing children getting to school? Those are just some minor clarifications I am looking for. I am not going to repeat what other Deputies and Senators have said.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

On the traffic management issue, a zebra crossing and so on, issues like that can arise in two contexts. The first is where we are doing a school building project. We obviously have to link in with the local authority and, as part of that, planning conditions can be imposed, some of which may relate to traffic management issues. More generally, zebra crossings and traffic management really fall within the remit of the local authority. With regard to schools, we look at what is needed and what are the issues to be managed within the curtilage of the school site. However, anything out on the road is really within the remit of the local authority. However, the remits can intersect where we are doing a building project and, as part of that project, planning conditions are imposed.

With regard to mica, it is not a significant issue in the school sector. In Donegal, there are concerns about the presence of mica in a small number of schools, perhaps ten or so. These are not in a particularly difficult state. There are various elements. We support those schools and will provide funding to them through our emergency works programme and manage those issues. As part of that, we offer facilities to have school buildings fully tested for mica by an engineer with a view to seeing what the appropriate remediation solution is.

On prefabs and things like that, as I mentioned earlier, the direction of travel for Government generally and for the school sector is towards modern methods of construction. That reflects the realities of life as regards skills in the construction industry. Blocklayers, plasterers, labourers and so on are not as plentiful as they were heretofore. From our perspective, and as I said earlier, I want to maximise all opportunities to add capacity to the school sector where warranted and needed. I see modern methods of construction, including modular accommodation, playing an important role in that regard. As I said earlier, we have got strong and positive feedback from the schools that have had such accommodation provided. It provides a decarbonised accommodation solution for schools. That is important as we look towards the climate targets we have to meet for 2030 and 2050.

As for the transport issue that was raised, I might ask my colleague, Ms Mannion, to respond.

Ms Martina Mannion

The Senator mentioned the issue of early education. She is correct to say the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has responsibility for crèches but, as she will also be aware, the Department of Education supports early intervention classes for children with autism. Four of those in Donegal support children of that younger age group who have complex needs in the area. We are trying hard to ensure there is a greater spread of special classes among the counties. For example, there are 114 special classes in Donegal, including 17 new classes, comprising ten at primary and seven at post-primary, in this school year. We are trying to increase capacity throughout the system in order that people will not have to travel as far. As Mr. Loftus mentioned, it is our intention that there will be special classes in all post-primary schools. We intend to have up to four in the big schools. We are trying to ensure that in all post-primary schools in large towns, there will be enough special classes to meet that need.

We talked previously with the committee about our forward planning processes. We have identified the level of special education provision that we need in our special schools. The forward planning processes we have put in place in the past year have yielded classes. We are pleased there is sufficient capacity in the school system for the 2023-24 school year in terms of special classes and special school places. We have commenced work on the same issue for the 2024-25 year. We believe that when we have that large-scale special class provision, children will not have to travel the same distances they are doing now. We are working hard with the NCSE to ensure that where children are travelling long distances, we are opening new special class and special school capacity in those areas.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive opening statement. I will concentrate on the points focusing on climate and transport. I might preface my questions by noting the fact that the siting of a new school is a considerable public investment. When we are making a public investment, we should try to make sure there is a dividend in terms of the public good that exists, obviously within the school gate but it should also extend beyond the school gate. Schools are at the heart of our communities, certainly in a social sense, but I often get the feeling, especially with new builds, that they are not geographically at the centre of our communities at times. Moreover, I do not know whether we consider enough the possibility of the school being a linchpin for supporting services or supporting community networks.

I must pick up on Mr. Loftus's answer about the siting of features as simple as zebra crossings. His answer essentially suggested the Department does not deal with that because it falls on someone else's plate. When we think in that kind of siloed way, we miss an opportunity with school builds. When you consider that, it is completely obvious, but it needs almost constant restating. The overwhelming majority of the people who attend our schools do not drive, given you have to be about 16 years of age to get a licence, depending on the type, but we do not consider issues such as children’s independent mobility. We are not considering in enough detail issues such as safe pedestrian access or a cycle network that can get a kid safely to and from school under their own steam. If we invest in that correctly, however, we will not just be providing a dividend for the school and for kids travelling to and from it but there will also be potential for the school to act as a linchpin to base a whole network around.

If we were talking about companies, we would be talking about scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions. When I look at what the Department said about decarbonisation, if it were a company, I would be saying that is scope 1 emissions we are looking at. I do not see a consideration of what a company would be asked to refer to as scope 3 emissions, which would equate in this instance to emissions generated in getting kids to and from school.

I will not bamboozle people with statistics, but we have made progress in the period between the 2016 census and the 2022 census. Good progress has been made, but if we compare the Irish figures with the Dutch figures, we see that 55% of primary school kids and 42% of the secondary school kids are being driven to school in this State, while in the Netherlands 66% of the kids at primary level and 75% of secondary school kids are getting there under their own steam.

I want to frame a specific question around the Department's technical guidance document. Reference has been made to two points in it. How assiduously are the criteria applied? One states that approaches to school should be from a number of directions. I am not going to do a tour of my constituency in citing my example. I will stay within Tramore. I can point to a relatively new-build secondary school in Tramore where there is one way in and one way out. When we talk about traffic in Tramore, we are really talking about traffic at the secondary school. Unless it is a really busy sunny day and everybody is out for ice creams, there is no other place in Tramore where you will sit in traffic for five or ten minutes. On a rainy day, you could be sitting outside the secondary school for a good while because there is one way in and one way out. The second point referenced in the document mentions excessive vehicular infrastructure, roads, parking and set-down. I could point to a relatively recently refurbished school in Tramore where playground space has been sacrificed for car parking. What are the guidelines around the provision of car parking, particularly on school grounds? How can that conflict with what I would describe as educational outcomes? I will pose those questions first and raise a few other issues if time allows.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I might refer to Mr. Hanly and Mr. Kelly as appropriate. Generally, in terms of new builds, they come about where the capacity does not exist in the existing school network to meet an accommodation need for children. In looking at new builds we consider whether there are opportunities on the campus site or whether we have to acquire a site separately. In acquiring a site, we link in with the development plans for the area, including the county development plans and local area plans, in reserving sites and working that through. Mr. Hanly and his team look at that quite a bit. In those sorts of areas, more often than not new communities are being developed with housing and other facilities, and schools are part of that. Obviously, in the design of those plans and working that through, thinking is done about where best to site a school that meets the needs. There is always a balance to be struck in that regard. We have to balance one set of needs against another and find a balanced solution wherever possible.

The Deputy referenced the technical guidance around sites and mobility. There is a strong and increasing emphasis on active travel arrangements and work is being done on that. The Department guidance helps to guide design teams as they design new school builds on particular sites. Obviously, there can be particular issues and circumstances at individual school and site level that dictate that solutions and workarounds have to be found. I might refer to Mr. Hanly and Mr. Kelly to comment on that briefly.

Mr. Murty Hanly

On the siting of new schools and engagement with local authorities in regard to their overall planning for towns and counties, we engage with them at a close level in the preparation of the development plans, the local area plans, all the other statutory and non-statutory urban framework plans and everything else. As they plan out a community, we are very much part of that conversation to ensure there is enough provision left for education facilities and that they are located in the appropriate places so that they serve the communities in close proximity to the residential areas.

We also have engagement with those bodies regarding the other schemes as they roll out, like active travel programmes, as they develop their measures on sustainable travel modes. We work very closely with them. It is a joint effort. They have responsibility for road safety and other areas they need to keep an eye on that are not just to do with access to a school. We are part of the conversation to ensure that there is availability of sustainable travel modes to schools as much as possible.

Mr. Kelly might speak to the technical guidance documents.

Mr. Mark Kelly

On our guidance, as part of our design team procedures and staged submissions with the design teams, we ask them to review the Safe Routes to School documents and the An Taisce and Smarter Travel plans. That would be discussed at each stage of the project from the initial design stage on throughout the development of the project to ensure they were taking all those into consideration for when the school is occupied.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Those are predominantly NTA programmes.

Mr. Mark Kelly

They are NTA documents; that is correct.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is there any formalised approach whereby the Department sits down with a local authority, the NTA and public transport providers like CIÉ? I ask because things seem piecemeal. As I have said, I could cite the example of that secondary school. It is comfortable to drive there if one is not sat in traffic, but it is not terribly comfortable to go there on a bike - I say that as a confident cyclist - nor is it a very nice environment for walking. One can walk there for sure, but there are parts were kids are creating shortcuts and there are all these desire lines going across as well as the matter of how they integrate into the surrounding estates. That is only one example and I would not base policy on one example, but it is a good illustrative example. As I said, this is significant public investment within a community and it should be unlocking a bunch of co-benefits if it is planned out properly. However, I am not seeing a coherent, joined-up approach whereby all the stakeholders who could really unlock such benefits are sitting down together in a formalised way, although the officials might tell me otherwise.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There is always scope to do things better. Some of that would have been picked up as part of the engagement with many stakeholders that was done as part of the development of the climate action plan and the actions that flow from that. We in the school sector have elements that relate to that and school sector mandates that flow from that. We are certainly very conscious of active travel, supporting that, Green Schools initiatives and all of that. There are probably other areas that can be strengthened in that regard too.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I wish the officials a good afternoon. I will start by saying something positive, which is not normally like me. I acknowledge the work the section has done. When I became a Deputy in 2019, Cork was in a very dark place, particularly in the area of special education. In that context, I wish to put on record that, to my knowledge, the vast majority, if not all, students who are willing and able to go to school who required a special education place in a special school in Cork have that this year for the first time.

The Chair excluded us from asking about specific circumstances, but this is the one I will ask about and maybe Ms Mannion will come back to me afterwards. There is a big refurbishment going on at St. Killian's School in Mayfield. There were delays with procurement and the opening has been put back until the end of this month. Will the officials confirm whether we are still on track for that deadline or give me a note afterwards?

An Cathaoirleach

I have no issue with members asking for specifics.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

Yes, that is fine.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a specific one as well.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

All right.

An Cathaoirleach

Just to cover myself.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I will go back to my general question. I am going to talk very little. I want to know the officials' position on the inflation supply chain delay framework agreement initiated by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform last year. I have a situation with a school I will not name that is not willing to engage with the builder in that regard. Will the officials set out the Department's position?

My other question follows on from Deputy Clarke's questions on Gaelscoil education. I taught in a Gaelscoil for many years.

I recognise that for the first time in a while there has been decrease in the number of children attending full-time Gaelscoil education, albeit there has been an increase in the number attending the Aonad. I was listening to Ms Cusack on the TV earlier and she referenced that there are targets for increased provision. I ask her to clarify what those targets are and if there is a timeline in relation to them, and to give me any feedback she can on that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I might refer to my colleague, Ms Cusack, on the issue of Gaelscoileanna. On the progress being made in special needs in Cork, I acknowledge the progress that has been made. We have done a huge amount of work in the whole area of special needs, and I acknowledge the work of the National Council for Special Education in leading a lot of that work. In Cork, by way of example, we have invested over €450 million in school facilities in the past five years. That is part and parcel of the investment there. A huge project is also under way in Carrigtwohill.

On the issues of inflation and the supply chain, as I said earlier we operate in a challenging construction sector environment. Notwithstanding that, we are achieving and still achieve strong delivery to meet urgent needs in relation to the provision of school places. Our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Office of Government Procurement in particular have made some amendments to the public works contracts to assist with that. Initially, part of that was publishing a co-operation framework, and more detailed and permanent arrangements were set out during the summer as part of amendments that provide for more flexibility around price variation, inflation and managing that. Certainly, we have seen those measures as positive and helpful. They have helped to ensure that the construction industry has managed to maintain a strong interest in public works contracts and, from our perspective, schools. However, it remains challenging. Certainly, we are increasingly having to work hard to encourage strong interest in school building projects to ensure that we maximise value for money for the taxpayer and the delivery of projects to meet urgent needs. It remains something that we keep a close eye on. Ms Cusack might speak to the issue of Gaelscoileanna and St. Killian's Special School in Mayfield.

Ms Áine Cusack

I will not claim to have expertise. The Irish medium policy goes beyond the planning and building unit, but obviously we are part of the conversation and engagement. There is a commitment to double the number of students receiving their education through the medium of Irish. As I referenced earlier, a consultation has been running in recent months with a view to getting stakeholder engagement to inform and develop that policy in order to achieve that objective. The planning and building and unit has a role in that context as well. One action on the establishment of new schools that we have implemented since 2018 is that where we are establishing more than one primary school in the school planning area, one of those new schools is established as a Gaelscoil. That is one action that the planning and building unit has been involved in in terms of increasing the Irish medium provision. We continue to work closely with colleagues. As referenced earlier, there are some Gaelscoileanna that are oversubscribed. In other areas, where demographics are different, there is less demand for Gaelscoileanna. It is about balancing that and looking at all the options for ensuring that there are solutions available for children who want education through the medium of Irish.

On the issue of St. Killian's Special School, I know good progress has been made in the refurbishment works there. I will have to confirm the specifics, but I know that at least part of the work is complete and children are in the school. Arrangements are in place to facilitate all of the classes pending the full completion of the works, but huge progress has been made in recent weeks.

Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan

I have a supplementary question for Mr. Loftus. Going back to the issue of inflation and supply chain management framework agreement that was brought in, I understand that it is a voluntary scheme for schools. There is nothing to coerce them into engage in it but at the same time, it is difficult enough to find people to tender for some of these projects.

Would Mr. Loftus envisage any review of the guidance that is given to schools being completed, be it from the Department of Education or the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, in order that schools would engage in a more progressive manner than in the case I referred to where a school just gave a blanket refusal and said it would not engage? Is there anything Mr. Loftus would like to say about progressing the issue?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There was a voluntary element to the framework to which the Deputy referred. There were sort of ex gratia payments made to deal with excessive inflation levels and managing and balancing those. Life has moved on in terms of the public works contract and those types of arrangements are now enhanced and more embedded in the updated public works contract. That particular ex gratia framework was of its time, but if there is a particular issue in a school, we are happy to discuss that with the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

I made a mistake. I said Deputy Nolan but Deputy Farrell is next.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Gabhaim míle buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na haíonna as teacht os comhair an choiste. Bhí an plé a bhí ann go dtí seo an-suimiúil. Is é a chéad cheist atá agam ná ceann faoi Ghaelscoileanna arís. This question is specifically about Gaelscoileanna. Exactly how many are in line for new builds in the Gaeltacht and outside the Gaeltacht? Does the Department have figures in relation to that? Transport is an issue that causes difficulties for students all over but there is a particular issue for people living on islands who do not currently have access to secondary school specifically. It is quite astonishing for a lot of people; they do not realise that some offshore islands do not have access to a secondary school, which means the kids have to leave their parents or a parent has to come from the island and go onto the mainland. It has a serious knock-on effect on the population of an island in terms of people choosing to move back or sometimes people staying on the island in the course of primary school and leaving when the kids go to secondary school. I am aware of this issue because Inishbofin is my constituency. It has been flagged with me numerous times by young families who want to live on the island or are living on the island and finding it difficult. What are the Department's plans for islands that do not have a secondary school building? In other islands, there are other issues in terms of students being in prefabricated buildings rather than in permanent structures. Are there long-term plans in relation to those issues? I am conscious of the fact that it is more expensive to deliver buildings on offshore islands, given all the different constraints. I am interested specifically in that as well.

Mr. Loftus mentioned modern methods of construction, which I am quite interested in. There is the national development plan and a construction sector group was convened by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform specifically to look at modern methods of construction. It is probably not being utilised to the extent people would like to see it being utilised. In relation to the designing of procurement contracts, does the Department have ideas or is it looking at incentivising the use of modern methods of construction in that process? To date, how many of the Department's projects have used those kinds of methods? I am quite interested in that because if we want market participants to use modern methods of construction more, we will need to seek investment in the area. Regarding planned projects, will the witnesses state what percentage will be covered under public private partnership, PPP, contracts? I will leave it at that for now and see what the witnesses come back with. I am conscious of timing. I might come back with a further contribution.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I thank the Deputy for her questions. Regarding Gaelscoileanna and new builds in the Gaeltacht and outside it, we publish all of our information about our school building programme on our website. We have a list of all our Gaelscoileanna and other projects and their status. We are happy to provide that to the Deputy.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

If Mr. Loftus could provide that and specifically numbers, that would be great.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. It is on the website and we can work that through.

Regarding the islands, Government policy is to support the islands as best as possible. In the school sector, we play a role in that as well. With respect to post-primary provision, there is a balance in how best to manage it, given the different subject options and things like that that are required. It is something we look at. It is trying to balance the number of children, what their needs are and how best to support that. Under current arrangements, there is grant funding available to support children who have to come from the islands onto the mainland for post-primary provision.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

I understand that. However, some islands do not have a secondary school and do not have that option. In addition, since Covid, it can be seen in some of the really rural Gaeltacht areas as well as on the other islands that they can now use Zoom for the likes of chemistry. It is about the actual delivery of a secondary school building on some of the islands.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. I do not necessarily want to get into any specifics about any particular island-----

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

No. In general, the islands that do not have-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The general position is more that we do the best we can but balance that relative to the numbers involved, what the demographics say and how we support that. We support that also through subject choice through Zoom and things like that on island schools with regard to some of the more specialist subjects. Certainly, we can come back to that. I do not know whether Ms Cusack wants to add anything about Inishbofin, but before she does, I will cover the modern methods of construction question.

As I said earlier, we have a variety of delivery mechanisms for our school building programme. We think they are important to have to add capacity to the system and use every opportunity we have available to us. We have done much work in the area of modern methods of construction and modular accommodation. We put in place a framework of suppliers that helps to ensure easier roll-out facilitation. That framework also includes timber frame modular options.

Regarding projects, in recent years, around 160-odd modular projects were completed and another 200 or so are in the pipeline. It is active, positive and welcomed by schools in the main. We are very proud of what we are doing.

On public private partnerships, PPP, it is not currently an avenue used for new projects. There are a number of existing PPP bundles in the system, which will be working their way through. However, we are not pursuing them currently.

Does Ms Cusack wish to add anything on Inishbofin?

Ms Áine Cusack

We are conscious of the challenges faced by families and children on islands who do not have post-primary provision. There are particular challenges Mr. Loftus mentioned. It is about making sure children can access appropriate education with full curricular access. The accommodation issue is nearly secondary. It is about providing the critical mass, in numbers of children, as Mr. Loftus mentioned, with viable education that is rounded and meets all their needs. It is a challenge and we acknowledge it.

Deputy Carol Nolan

Gabhaim buíochas leis na hionadaithe ón Roinn Oideachais as ucht an cur i láthair a rinne siad. How many people are employed in the school building unit?

Is there a need for more recruitment?

I will refer to a particular situation that is occurring all too often. While there are some positive developments, which I acknowledge, school principals have been in contact with me over a lack of engagement, a lack of follow-through on projects and the unacceptable delays that are occurring. As I said, I have exhausted all avenues with regard to one school, which I want to briefly reference. I have emailed a number of times and I emailed three weeks ago about this particular school but I am still awaiting a response and have only received an acknowledgement. The school community are very frustrated and I have no choice but to mention it here today. It is St. Brendan's Community School in Birr, where it appears the entire project has come to a halt and there has been little or no engagement with the school principal since the last school year. I appeal to the Department to contact the school. The delays are unacceptable and they are impacting on students, who should be at the centre of everything we do. There is an ASD unit involved in that instance. It is just not fair. There is obviously a demand for an ASD unit. Parents want to enrol their children there and the school wants to take the pupils, but it is at a standstill. I ask for clarity and for more direct engagement with the school principal on the issue. I ask for an answer to the email that I sent three weeks ago.

It is very frustrating. I was a school principal myself and I had a good relationship with the Department of Education on many issues, which were resolved as they were minor issues, thankfully. It is very frustrating for a principal in a school community. They are trying to get things going but their hands are tied and things seem to come to a halt, for some reason. I will end on that note.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The planning and building unit has about 200 staff and we are increasing that staff. As part of strengthening capacity in terms of project delivery, an element of that is the strengthening of the staff of the planning and building unit, but it is also adding capacity to our key stakeholders, which includes the likes of the education and training board, ETB, sector, which we use quite a bit for project delivery, and we would have other delivery mechanisms as well. We will look at all of that in the round rather than just looking at the staff in Tullamore.

With regard to the issue the Deputy has raised in regard to St. Brendan's Community School, we have a dedicated email address for Oireachtas Members.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I used it.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There is a system and structure for that.

Deputy Carol Nolan

There is a system but there are no answers. That is not acceptable in this day and age, particularly when it is impacting on a school community. I am well aware of the system, as we all are.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I agree with the Deputy that it is not acceptable. We will follow up on that to ensure the response issues.

An Cathaoirleach

On that, will Mr. Loftus make sure that a full response in regard to that school is sent to the clerk, who can forward it on to Deputy Nolan?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes, we will.

Deputy Carol Nolan

That is fine, thank you.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses for coming in. The fact that we have such a full membership today and that we have other members waiting shows that people are very frustrated with the system. The first thing I want to bring up is the issue of solar panels. It is the Department’s responsibility to roll out solar panels across all schools. As the witnesses know, the climate action fund has allocated €50 million and to date, one year later, not one school has a solar panel on it. As I understand it, the Department has come up with complicated reasons for why it cannot do that. Many of us have solar panels; it is not that complicated. The Department has the people to do the work and it has the money. I fail to see why it cannot just get on with the job. I know I sound frustrated but we are in the middle of a climate emergency. There is money there and people to do the work, but it is not being done and I do not understand why not.

My second point concerns the fact that many of the newer schools are multidenominational schools. I brought up this previously with the Minister as a Commencement matter. I am not saying there is bias and there is clearly not bias.

However, it does mean that many of the children who are going to multidenominational schools are in buildings that are not fit for purpose. They are schools where prefabs are stacked on top of each other. This means that those who choose a particular type of education are in buildings that are not acceptable. One case in point is the Educate Together secondary school in Galway which had those kinds of prefabs. I am looking for an update on the Oranmore site.

I also raise another Educate Together school in Dublin 8. The parents of schoolchildren are campaigning. As I understand it, by 2026, 45% of the students in that area will have to leave it to go to school. I would like to understand what kind of future planning there is, particularly when we know that the census is showing that more and more people in Ireland are not Catholic. We need a future plan so that people do not have to leave areas. There are problems with that, such as transport issues. We need a plan. In that particular area, a large-scale housing development is planned but once it goes forward, there will be no school in the area that is fit for purpose. My colleague, Councillor Michael Pidgeon, has identified a site in the area that would be ideal for a school. Is now not the time to put these things in place and to develop housing around them instead of putting things in place later?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will deal with the Senator's question about solar panels and the piece around multidenominational schools. My colleague, Mr. Hanly, will speak to the issue of the Oranmore site. The solar panel initiative was announced by the Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, in last year's budget. We have been engaging quite a bit with his Department.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

With all due respect, the initiative was also announced by the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley. She undertook to take that on. Responsibility for the initiative is with Mr. Loftus's Department.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I full accept that. I am just giving the committee context. In terms of the solar panel arrangements, we have been working through a lot of engagement with officials in that Department to consider the approach, strategy and business case. Much of that has been worked through. As I said earlier, I will attend a meeting with Department officials to work that through further once I leave this meeting. As a Department, we are very anxious to get that up and running. We are conscious that as a project, putting solar panels on an individual school is relatively straightforward. It is the work of a day or a day and a half on an individual school basis. The issues we are working through are around all of the practicalities that can arise and the different circumstances that can arise for individual schools that may have roof issues or things such as those. We are working that through and it is at an advanced stage.

The Senator asked about a school in Dublin 8. In terms of the provision multidenominational schools generally, we are working through a plan in respect of reconfiguration. There was a pilot in that regard, and it has worked its way through. We have learned some lessons from that pilot and will be following through with an action plan and a strategy around rolling out reconfiguration on a more general level. That is something we are anxious to ensure.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Loftus but I have no idea what he just said. What was the pilot scheme? What is the roll-out? Is it for multidenominational schools? Will the Department take an approach whereby it will look to roll out multidenominational schools in advance of the need arising?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I apologise to the Senator. Conscious of time, I was trying to give a high-level picture. I will share the details in order that the Senator fully understands the situation. Government policy is to achieve a target of 400 multidenominational schools by 2030. There are currently 166 either multidenominational or interdenominational schools. As part and parcel of that target, we did a pilot scheme of a reconfiguration approach last year and into earlier this year and have learned some lessons.

Arising from that we are developing a framework to increase the delivery on the target. This essentially involves reconfiguration of existing Catholic denomination schools.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

This has not been terribly successful, so do we have a timeline on new school buildings?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Focusing on where there is a demand is one clear part of the strategy. In terms of new multi-denominational schools in Dublin 8 or otherwise, the issue is that of where there is a demographic need for a new school. This is considered, and where existing capacity is insufficient to meet the need, action is taken. The parental voice that comes through as part of a patronage survey engagement determines the nature and ethos of the school. I know that my colleague Ms Cusack is quite familiar with the Dublin 8 area. It is not necessarily the case from our perspective that the demographics would support a new school requirement at this point in time.

Ms Áine Cusack

I assume we are speaking in the context of post-primary level in Dublin 8. We have spoken before about how there are five denominational post-primary schools in Dublin 8. Obviously Dublin 8 is a big area but let us take Inchicore as the central point. There are 12 post primary schools; denominational, multi-denominational, co-educational and single sex, within 3 km of Inchicore There is a variety of schools within easy reach of Dublin 8. In an urban area like Dublin it is natural that there is a lot of movement into and out of areas. Inchicore is served by dozens of bus routes giving it good accessibility into and out from the city. We are satisfied that the demographics are such that the existing provision and capacity within the schools is sufficient . We are engaging with the schools in Dublin 8 to meet any additional capacity requirements they might have. As things stand, we are satisfied that the arrangements in place will be sufficient to meet the need. However, as with everywhere in the country, we keep demographics and our position under review.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I am conscious of my time. I am sure my colleague, Deputy Costello, will come in on this point as well. I want to raise the issue of the school at Oranmore.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will ask Mr. Hanly to come in on that. I am conscious that there are commercial sensitivities around site purchases which we cannot go into detail on.

Mr. Murty Hanly

The Galway ETSS school was set up as a regional solution for Galway and Oranmore. Working in collaboration with Galway County Council, we identified a suitable site in Oranmore in the Garran area, next to the train station. Unfortunately we could not acquire the site by agreement due to title issues. We have gone down the road of requesting Galway County Council to use its powers of compulsory purchase to acquire the site. That order has been processed and is with An Bord Pleanála at the moment and we are waiting for word back on that

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

Is there a timeline on it?

Mr. Murty Hanly

Unfortunately, we do not have a timeline. We are waiting for the board to hear the case.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a couple of questions myself before I bring in the other speakers. On 4 July we had the Holy Family School for the Deaf in Cabra, Dublin 7 before the committee. Mr. Kelly and Ms Mannion were here that day as well. The issue of the school's new building was raised. Will Mr. Loftus give us an update? Mr. Kelly tried to give us an update on July 4 but he did not have the specifics so we said we would put it on the list for today. The school is operating on two campuses at the moment, which is completely unacceptable. It is not suitable for such a school. The school has been with the school building unit for quite some time. I would like for this new school building to be expedited as quickly as possible. I realise that there are intricacies around that but I would like a brief update as to where it stands at the moment. I would also appreciate if Mr. Loftus will give the clerk of the committee a fuller update to enable us to get back to the school because we said that we would do so the next time the school building unit appeared here.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We have provided an update on the project as part of the appendix to my statement. In summary, that project is part of our NDFA Devolved Schools Building Programme. This is one of our very good delivery mechanisms.

It is in the process of procuring project managers and the design team for the project. Being part and parcel of that delivery mechanism gives me a lot of confidence regarding the project's future direction of travel. It is a good programme to be part of.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Loftus for that. What is the Department's general policy on the rental of school buildings to accommodate students in a school setting? Is it a case of building a new school?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

In the planning and building unit, rental situations can arise, typically in the form of interim arrangements pending the putting in place of more permanent solutions. The rental budget is around €30 million or €35 million per year and represents quite a small proportion of our overall capital building budget, which is well in excess of €1 billion.

Specifics are examined on an individual school basis to ascertain what is appropriate and the particular circumstances. Sometimes issues can arise in an individual case that mean renting is the solution for the short to medium term.

An Cathaoirleach

I have tabled two parliamentary questions on the proposed new school building for Meánscoil Gharman, Enniscorthy, County Wexford . I have been approached by a group of parents on this issue. The school is renting at present and a site has been identified, but some of the parents want confirmation that the new school building will be going ahead. What is the plan for that?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

That is something we are examining and we are interacting with the patron. The school has some views on the matter. I have responsibility for 4,000 schools, so knowing the individual details about each can be difficult. However, from what I understand, the school in question is quite happy with its current location. We are considering that also. I am not sure whether Ms Cusack wants to add anything further.

An Cathaoirleach

Would building a new school not offer more value to the taxpayer?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. When considering possible long-term solutions, we must ascertain what is in place currently and the best value for money solution overall. We must ask what a new school building would cost and what a rental arrangement or long-term purchase arrangement would involve. Different scenarios can arise. I do not necessarily want to get into the specifics of these, but I know-----

An Cathaoirleach

What intrigues me is that the Department, with Wexford County Council, has identified a new school site. According to responses to parliamentary questions I have tabled, the work is progressing, but now I am being told it might not be.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

There is a site there and we are certainly considering that, but we are also conscious there is much need for sites generally. Things can evolve a bit. We have made no definitive decisions on this; it is something that is being considered. At this time, our approach is to determine the best pathway forward. No definitive decisions have been made in that regard at this stage.

An Cathaoirleach

When do you expect a decision to be made on that?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I was hoping I would have decisions at this point. I was leaving it until after all the September 2023 issues we have had to manage. We have had to prioritise those. It is certainly something we can look at afterwards.

An Cathaoirleach

On the solar panels, it is beyond me that progress cannot be made. Thousands of schools throughout the country, both primary and post-primary, could be harvesting energy.

What is the delay? This was announced quite some time ago by both Ministers. At the time both said this would be happening here and now, yet still nothing is happening.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The funding for that is coming through the climate action fund and that creates particular requirements in relation to the strategy and business case for it. We have engaged extensively with the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications on that. I think we are very much at the concluding stages of that engagement. There are just a couple of remaining issues to work through and it is more at a higher level than individual specifics. We are working through some of the strategy issues. Working this through at an individual school level is fine, but working it through across 4,000 schools and managing that and managing the process for that is different. Our overall approach on this is to keep it as streamlined and straightforward for individual schools as possible, so that is where we are working that through currently.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I have two final questions. I am moving to special education and Ms Mannion may wish to take it. St. Patrick's School in Enniscorthy was completed. It is an absolutely fantastic building. The officials are probably aware the school is now renting space off the Gaelscoil next door. Pupils are coming from the borders with Waterford, Kilkenny, Carlow and the middle Wicklow area. Children are coming from north Arklow down to Enniscorthy to be educated in a special school. I think there is no special school between Bray and Enniscorthy. Are there any plans to even look at that? Are there any plans in the Department to explore a new special school similar to St. Patrick's, or the special school in Bray, to accommodate the huge amount of people who require special education in that area? I am referring especially to the north Arklow-Wicklow area.

Ms Martina Mannion

When we have been here before we have talked about our priority being where we had children who did not have school places and that is where we have expanded our special schools in the last number of years. We have seven new special schools in the last three years since Mr. Loftus and I dedicated teams to working on this. They have been especially focused on those larger urban areas and we have had three new special schools open in Cork, the same number in Dublin and we have had expanded capacity across a number of them. Part of what we are trying to achieve in our work at the moment is earlier notification of where we might need new special schools. For example, we are aware we need to ideally be able to tell the school system before Christmas where we need the new special school capacity for September 2024.

We have talked the committee through our forward planning process previously. We have worked through it extensively around the specific school planning areas with the NCSE and worked with the HSE on the level of diagnosed special need. We have identified a number of areas, including the area the Cathaoirleach has just spoken about, where we are aware of the pressures and of children travelling. We are now looking with the NCSE at areas where children are currently travelling to across those areas, the number of children who might be looking at a special school placement for September 2024 and September 2025, and the mix of age between primary and post-primary age children because we must ensure we get that correct. We are looking at capacity within the Wicklow and Wexford areas and we are looking at distance travelled. Our plan, which Mr. Loftus has talked about, is to try to maximise the capacity within existing special schools before we move to a situation where we have to open new special schools. This is going to involve a thorough examination of capacity in the special schools system. We have 130 such schools now and it is about how much capacity is there in terms of children moving on to further and higher education and adult services and how much capacity we will need to put into the system.

Our initial view is that we will need significant additional capacity in this area and we are looking to see how we can put in an accommodation solution for that for September 2024 and 2025. We will be dealing with school patrons and the NCSE on that.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

St. Patrick's Special School was referenced. It is a fantastic facility but it can also act as a magnet for children coming as well. It is about trying to get the balance right and ensuring the cohort of enrolments for that school is appropriate for that particular region. It goes into regions when looking at special schools. It is certainly something we are conscious of. More generally, we are conscious that special educational needs, SEN diagnoses are increasing. Even when we look at and engage quite a bit with our counterparts in the North and the UK, they see similar issues and pressures regarding special school capacity. We are learning from each other in that area as well.

An Cathaoirleach

I understand that. There is no doubt that St. Patrick's Special School, as it is a new building, is a magnet to other regions. It is unfortunate that children with special needs are on a bus for transport for an hour and a half in the morning and an hour and a half in the evening. The Department is getting there but I wondered about the risk or reason for it.

I do not want a direct answer for this. The witnesses might come back to the clerk. I want to ask about two issues. I mentioned St. Aidan's Primary School in Enniscorthy before. It is a newly renovated school building and the biggest primary school outside of Dublin. It has now exceeded the 1,000-pupil threshold that was envisaged and they are now looking for further extensions to accommodate a special needs class. Perhaps the Department could come back to me on that. The other is St. Joseph's National School, Bree in Enniscorthy. I do not want a reply now but I would like if the Department could come back to the clerk with a comprehensive reply.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We would be happy to provide that.

An Cathaoirleach

We have three non-committee members, Deputies Costello, Whitmore and Dillon. I will give them three minutes each, and then Deputy Clarke will want to come back in again.

Deputy Patrick Costello

I have three minutes, so I will have to be very quick. First, the witnesses mentioned emergency works. I am not sure if the Department has quite the same definition of "emergency". I say this because one secondary school in my constituency, Mercy Secondary School, Inchicore, has a collapsing boundary wall. It cannot get an answer from the Department about fixing the wall. People on the other side of the wall are naturally very concerned about it but the school cannot seem to get an answer on it.

The witnesses mentioned the model for planning, how new schools are established in response to demographic growth, and how the Department wants to keep pace with housing roll-out. The challenge is that there does not seem to be any way to address existing areas of underprovision. The Department does not seem to be looking at those gaps and filling them. It also does not seem to be looking at underprovision in terms of school and patronage choice and actively working to fill those gaps. I rely a lot here on the work of Dr. JoAnne Mancini from Maynooth University, who has done a lot of research on this and has published on it.

I am also fascinated to hear assertions regarding capacity in Dublin 8. It was said that there is plenty of capacity, and that new builds are prioritised where there is no capacity in the existing system. The trouble is, I asked a parliamentary question about capacity and was told the Department does not measure it and does not have figures on capacity for school planning areas. This completely contradicts all of these assertions here. Which is it? Does the Department count capacity? If so, why was it not provided in the reply to the parliamentary question? Is the parliamentary question right, and the Department does not actually count capacity? If that is the case, how is the Department making these assertions?

The intake ratio for the Dublin 8 school planning area is 55%, and 45% of kids are travelling outside the area. The Dublin 12 school planning area is about 70%. Blackrock-Booterstown is 325%. It caters for the 100% of pupils in that area plus 225% more, and yet it was provided with an Educate Together secondary school. We have this inconsistency in the planning numbers, where areas that have huge provision are getting extra capacity. Patronage documents said there was an estimated 651 excess pupils in Dublin 8. I have been told by the Department that between 600 and 1,000 excess pupils are needed to get a new secondary school.

Based on the number the Department provided in the patronage documents, namely, 651, Dublin 8 should be getting a secondary school but it is not and the witnesses keep telling me there is no capacity there. The number for Goatstown-Stillorgan was 445 and it got a school. The same is true of Enfield, where the number was 322, and Kingscourt, where it was 208. Why, therefore, is Dublin 8, with 651 excess pupils based on the existing underprovision not in line with the roll-out, not getting a school? Why is there that inconsistency? My party colleague Deputy Ó Cathasaigh mentioned the scope 3 emissions in the climate action plan, which we have been talking about. Inchicore is very well connected, but Kilmainham B has the lowest level of walking or cycling to school in all of Dublin city. Those kids are being put into cars and going to other parts of the city and that is contributing to emissions. The best school a kid can go to is her or her local school, for community, social networks and emissions. The answer from the Department is that Dublin 8 is provided for by a school in Sandymount, which is not in any way within walkable distance. Teachers in the Sandymount school are complaining to me because their pupils have a 90-minute commute, are arriving tired, are leaving early and are falling behind because they do not have time to study or do their homework because of that 90-minute commute.

Does the Department actually count capacity? Which is wrong, the witnesses' assertions during this meeting or the answer I received in response to a parliamentary question? Second, why is there no consistency in the provision of schools? Areas with significantly less provision are getting schools, whereas Dublin 8 is told it does not deserve one. Third, what is the Department doing in forward planning to address the existing underprovision, not just to provide for future demographics?

An Cathaoirleach

I have to go to a meeting of committee chairpersons, so I propose that Deputy Clarke take the Chair.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I second the proposal.

An Cathaoirleach

Before I leave, I thank the witnesses, in particular Ms Mannion and Mr. Kelly, whom we put on the spot when they last appeared before the committee regarding Holy Family School for the Deaf.

Deputy Sorca Clarke took the Chair.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

On the emergency works issue and the issue relating to the collapsing boundary wall, we will get that checked out and see what the issue is. Sometimes engineers can have differing perspectives on what an issue is and how it is to be remediated, but we will certainly check it out-----

Deputy Patrick Costello

The school has not had an acknowledgement, however, from the Department. No engineer has even gone out to look at it.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Okay. We will check that out.

On the issues the Deputy raised regarding Dublin 8, we have nothing against Dublin 8, to be clear. As for requirements for a new school, we look at them as best we can regarding where the need is to maximise the existing capacity. Where there is a gap, we look to see how that gets managed and we work out solutions around that. On counting capacity, we certainly do our best to get a good understanding of capacity but it is not an exact science. It can evolve due to the level of movement into or out of a school planning area or because of the level of housing provision, roll-out and so on. It is not a definitive, exact science and I am not sure whether, in the parliamentary question the Deputy referred to, he requested a specific answer, which may not have been feasible. In any event, we can look at the issue and respond to him directly in regard to how we deal with capacity.

We certainly do not envisage any inconsistencies in how we deal with any one area over another. Capacity is assessed, judgments are made, there is liaison with patrons and so on and then we determine whether there is a need to establish a new school. We do not take that decision lightly. It is a very significant investment. A new 1,000-pupil post-primary can cost something of the order of €40 million to €50 million. There are also site issues that need to be looked at.

With regard to Dublin 8, Crumlin is in that general hinterland. We worked with the education and training board, ETB, and Educate Together in developing a partnership approach in respect of a school. That is a good collaborative arrangement to maximise use of the existing facilities as regards that school, a site and all of that. From our perspective in the planning and building unit, maximising use of the infrastructure that is there to meet needs is very important to us. Where that is not possible, a cost-effective way to meet needs is sought.

Deputy Patrick Costello

On that exact point, that is an excellent school but there is underprovision in the Dublin 12 school planning area. The Department is going to meet the need for Dublin 8 by further weakening Dublin 12, which is not good for the children in Crumlin who need access to that excellent school. It is one of only two non-denominational schools, and the only one inside the M50, in the Dublin 12 school planning area. It is needed for Dublin 12.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Again, my knowledge of the geography of the particular locations in the area is not 100% but the general point is that we seek to maximise existing capacity in all cases and then, where there is a real need, we recognise new schools. We have recognised quite a number of new schools over recent years. That is what we do, that is our business and that is what we provide for. I may ask Mr. Hanly or Ms Cusack to come in on forward planning generally and whether there is any more we should say about Dublin 8.

Mr. Murty Hanly

I will speak briefly on forward planning and the point the Deputy made about looking at existing demographics rather than looking forward to future pressures. The approach we take is to look at the whole country and break it down into school planning areas. We then look at future demand in those areas but we also take into consideration the demographic trends that are coming through the system, for example, a fall-off in requirements at primary school level coming through to post-primary school. However, we look at it all in the round. We do not just plan for future residential development. We are very much conscious of the requirements of existing residential developments, particularly with regard to objectives under the national planning framework relating to compact growth, which should lead to more development in brownfield areas. We are conscious of that and take it into consideration in our planning.

Ms Áine Cusack

If I may come in again, I will keep it short. I thank the Deputy. To go back to what he said about the local school being the most appropriate school, there are five schools within the Dublin 8 school planning area. As he has acknowledged himself, they have long-standing traditions of serving the community in Dublin 8 and do an excellent job of doing so. Our first port of call is to support those schools and see whether there is any scope to expand them to meet additional need, if and when it emerges, or any gap in capacity at the moment. Some of those schools have indicated that they are willing and able to enrol more children even within their existing accommodation. We continue to work with them to see how best to attract children to them and to support them to expand beyond that, if necessary. That goes for the schools in Dublin 8 but also the other schools within that 3 km radius that are on the bus routes and which are accessible to and serve the current community in Dublin 8 and the new community that is also growing in the area. The Deputy referenced the threshold for the establishment of a new school, the figure of 650. It should be acknowledged that this relates to an additional need over and beyond what can be accommodated within the existing schools. Since there is capacity within schools and potential to expand capacity within them, that threshold does not neatly apply.

Deputy Patrick Costello

The major issue is that there is no multi-denominational school in the area.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I call on Deputy Costello to finish as he has had way more time than the previous Chair had indicated. I call Deputy Whitmore to speak now and I ask her to keep her contribution to three minutes, please?

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for allowing me to speak today because it is great to have the opportunity to have face-to-face engagement with the Department. I have had many discussions with the Department via parliamentary questions and emails.

I primarily want to raise the issue of capacity in the Greystones area. We have seen a very significant population growth there of more than 4,000 additional people since the last census, a 15% increase. I know there has been much investment in the area, that a great deal of work is happening and there are works planned for three schools, but we are not seeing them move.

It has been one year since planning permission was received for Coláiste Chraobh Abhann in Kilcoole and it is awaiting the tendering process. Temple Carrig School is awaiting completion of stage 1 for additional accommodation and the indications are that it will be 2027 before that school is actually in place. I believe Greystones Community College received information today that 2025 will be the endpoint for it. I am pleased that date has been given for its completion.

I have also learned today that for September 2024, there will be 75 fewer secondary school places in Greystones. That information is coming from two of the schools which told me they will have to row back on their enrolments by 75 children. What will happen to those 75 children and how can the Department work with the existing schools in the area to ensure there will be sufficient accommodation for them? Enrolments for those schools will start in November, which is in only a few weeks away, and I will be inundated with very stressed parents who will want to know what will happen to their children. We cannot have a situation which we normally have in the town where it is May or June - it can be even August or September - before parents know they have a place for their child, particularly in that very important transition from primary level to secondary level. Will the Department please tell me how it intends to address that 75 child deficit in Greystones for 2024?

The second point I wish to raise with the Department is the provision of bus transport for access to sporting facilities. I am talking here about the North Wicklow Educate Together secondary school. We have 30 students each day who walk twenty minutes each way to get to sporting facilities. Last week, they could not do this because the weather was so bad. They need bus transport. Other schools are given the funding for this and that school has been waiting for three years for funding. The North Wicklow Educate Together school has a great number of children with additional needs and there are, I believe, health and safety risks with transporting and walking those children up that busy road. Will the Department please let me know when the school will receive funding as it is very important this happens as soon as possible?

I welcome the Department's comments on the special schools. I was in New Court school last week and met some of the students there who have to travel 1.5 hours each morning from places like Rathdrum and Bray. They were telling me how tiring this is and I welcome that the Department is looking at that. I would appreciate if the Department would keep me up-to-date with information on a new special school for the south Wicklow and north Wexford area.

Finally, the temporary accommodation is still not in place in Blessington Community College. It seems we have been thrown between the Department and the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, KWETB. Parents just want to know when it will happen, they want to see it on site, and it will certainly have to be done before the next intake of pupils. What is the latest information on that? I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I thank the Deputy and call on Mr. Loftus to respond, please.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

On Greystones, we have made very significant investment in that area in recent years and the projects referred to by the Deputy are part of that pipeline going forward. Greystones Community College is one of the more immediate projects; it is going through the procurement process. We can provide updates on Kilcoole and Temple Carrig School. The school at Kilcoole is part of our pipeline which I referred to earlier with regard to the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, and, again, as I said earlier that is a very good delivery mechanism for us. It is delivering many projects and we would certainly see that as important.

On September 2024, we have just come through September 2023 and we have started engagement with stakeholders, not just in the context of September 2024 but also September 2025, in looking ahead to see where are the capacity pressure points to be managed and to work through solutions. Greystones would be part and parcel of that.

The best way of managing that - this is something we stress in our engagement with stakeholders - is ensuring good co-ordination of enrolment times between the schools-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Which they do, to be fair to them.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

-----to get the early picture there.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

They all work really well together.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As part that, they should work through the duplicate enrolments because parents enrol their children in more than one school.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

We are tight on time. I know that there are 75 fewer places for September 2024, regardless of the duplicates and all of that. The schools work closely together and use a good model in how they approach it. How will those 75 students be accommodated?

Mr. Hubert Loftus

As I said, we are dealing with Greystones. Equally, we are dealing with other areas across the country-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

That will not make any difference to the parents who are going to be on to me in a month's time asking where their children are going to go to school. Will the Department guarantee that those children in Greystones will have a place in their local community? If so, how is that going to be achieved? That is all I want, aside from responses to the other questions.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

The guarantee that we give is that every child will have a school place. That is what we are about and what the planning and building unit is about. The mechanics of how that operates is something that we work through as part of our engagement with key stakeholders. Obviously, Greystones is part of the mix.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I might intervene for a moment. I ask the Department to provide a written brief to the secretariat on that issue and that raised by Deputy Costello. It is concerning if information is given to a member of the committee that contradicts information that was provided in response to a parliamentary question from that person. If written responses could be submitted in that regard, it would be appreciated. Does that address some of the concerns raised by Deputy Costello? Let us not open the conversation again. A "Yes" or a "No" will do the job.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Do not let him talk again. I still want to follow up on the other issues.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

Is Deputy Whitmore happy with the responses?

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I may have taken Mr. Loftus by surprise. I am not sure if he was aware of the deficit of 75 places. I ask him to come back to me on that. It is really important.

On the funding for the bus, those children have been walking backwards and forwards to that-----

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I will ask Ms Cusack to speak to that issue.

Ms Áine Cusack

We are engaging closely with the patron in that respect.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The school has been hearing that for a long time. My understanding is that the patron has lodged an application for that. When will that be signed off? We cannot have a situation where children have to walk to sports facilities in the rain.

Ms Áine Cusack

We are acutely aware of the circumstances. I assure the Deputy that the patron has represented the position very well. We will be back in touch with the patron very shortly in that regard.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I also raised the issue of temporary accommodation in Blessington Community College.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

We will provide an update on that. It reflects the challenging construction environment we are in and the pressures there. It also reflects the level of additionality we are putting into the school system generally, not just in Blessington, and how we are working that through.

Just to clarify, for the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, we will certainly follow up on the parliamentary question issue raised by Deputy Costello. As I explained earlier, however, capacity is not an exact science. I am not sure what way the question was phrased. It is something that we work through. We recognise that it evolves. We will deal with that in our response to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I will bring in Deputy Dillon, who has been incredibly patient. He has three minutes or thereabouts.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am conscious of time so I will be brief. I acknowledge our witnesses and thank them for their opening statements and their ongoing work in delivering major capital projects. As many present have said, they are critical to the fabric of our education system. We have to acknowledge all they have done and what they continue to do.

On the metrics the Department uses, how does the building and planning unit evaluate itself in the context of performance? In one way, performance is measured by delivery. I would like to get an understanding of the unit's delivery. What is the unit evaluating itself against? Is it time, quality or the number of projects that are delivered on an annual basis? In terms of live projects and those planned for the future, how many are currently live within the additional school accommodation scheme, the large-scale scheme and any other scheme the witnesses may be able to mention?

Is there a feedback process from the key stakeholders, be it principals, education and training boards, ETBs, or other education institutions? I would like to get an understanding of that.

On local issues, I am working with Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB, MSLEBT, in relation to my former school, namely, Davitt College, which is a major capital project. At the minute, there are more than 100 students being bussed 400 yd to temporary accommodation because of the lack of additional accommodation. Anyone who sees that happening is scratching their head because how, in this day in age, can something like this happen? There have been major delays in the delivery of modular units. The original design was for temporary modular until a permanent structure was built. What is the status of the permanent structure build?

I have one concern on the feedback on parliamentary questions we submit as Members of this House. I have written to the Department’s Secretary General on the failure to address parliamentary questions within the planning and building unit and the lack of transparency on the questions we ask on specific projects. I ask that the committee follows up on that. It is frustrating when boards of management and school principals are looking for engagement with political representatives and the responses are basically a set template with a one-liner or two-liner on the status of the project. It is basically a regurgitation of the questions we asked in a different format. I ask that more effort be put into the responses to parliamentary questions.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

I have a few points. On the planning and building unit and our performance and evaluation, our core metric is making sure there is a school place for all children in a timely manner. That is ultimately our metric and what we are about. Looking at the scale of operation across 4,000 schools with nearly 1 million students, that is achieved in the vast majority of cases.

As part of getting feedback, one of the initiatives we did recently was hold an education buildings conference. We had one last year and we plan to have another next year. That is a way for us to engage with stakeholders in a different environment and get different perspectives. Another area we looked at and increase our engagement on is with our neighbours in the North and the UK. Just recently, we had a delegation over from Japan who were visiting to learn from the planning and building unit. They were hugely impressed with our forward planning, our GIS and things like that. My opposite number there who is head of the planning and building unit and also appears before parliamentary committees was quite surprised that I would be asked to answer on individual projects at such committees. However, I suppose that is the nature-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

It is the Irish way.

Mr. Hubert Loftus

Yes. A lot is to be said for Japan.

Regarding our projects, we feel we do quite a bit in terms of communication on them and transparency. It may not feel like that at times but we publish all of our project lists and update that on a monthly basis. One would see from that, with respect to large-scale projects, that there are 300-plus. We have about 1,000 in our additional accommodation scheme – all live projects. We have our modular programme in addition to that as well. The progression of projects through the stages is tracked as part of that. As part of project delivery, under our procedures, design teams are required to give progress updates to schools. We are aware that is happening in some or perhaps many cases, but not in all. We are conscious of that and stressing it. We have project management supports for many of our bigger and more complex projects and programmes. As part of that, there are very good communication channels for schools in respect of those projects.

When we step back from it, we find the number of queries we might get through parliamentary questions or representations around those projects that have good communication channels will certainly be much lower than we might have otherwise. It is something we are conscious of. On parliamentary questions and lack of transparency, we get a huge volume of parliamentary questions in the planning and building unit. We try to answer them as best we can. We will look to see how we can further improve that.

Davitt College in Castlebar, County Mayo, was referenced. It is awaiting a modular project and is working that through. I do not have an update on its permanent structure. I will ask Ms Cusack to provide that. There were some delays with the modular programme, but we are working closely with Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB and its chief executive, Mr. Tom Grady, with whom I engage quite a bit. We are supporting them as best we can.

Ms Áine Cusack

We were all working with the ETB on its 2023-24 need, which consumed our energies over the past couple of months. We have talked to the ETB recently and will engage again shortly because we are all keen to pick that project up and make sure it moves at pace. It is a critical project in respect of providing for Castlebar. We will link with the ETB very shortly, in the next week, on that. We will keep the committee posted.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I ask Deputy Dillon to hang around for a moment, if he can so indulge.

I have two very brief questions for Ms Cusack. When we spoke about the provision of education through the medium of Irish, she said there were targets for increased provision. Will she give us some more details on that? It was mentioned to one of the contributors that it was doubling. What other targets are there? A comment was also made that where an area will have two primary schools, one would be a Gaelscoil. How many of those areas are there?

Ms Áine Cusack

You are putting me on the spot, to be honest.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

Ms Cusack should feel free to come back with a written reply, if she does not have it to hand. That is absolutely fine.

Ms Áine Cusack

A commitment has been made, and again it is beyond the planning and building unit to double the number of students receiving their education through the medium of Irish. I will not try to talk out of turn beyond the PBU, but we can get a little more information on that, including those statistics. We will not count here, but we will come back with that data directly.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)

I propose that the committee follow up directly with the Department on the concerns raised by some speakers regarding parliamentary questions, their quality and accuracy, etc. I also request that the committee contact the Ceann Comhairle's office to see how many parliamentary questions have been referred under Standing Orders to him. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes the meeting. I thank all our guests for their time, expertise, and the briefings they have proposed. It has been a long but very productive meeting. It should be borne in mind this issue is of real significance and importance to parents the length and breadth of the country. It is very much appreciated.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.33 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 17 October 2023.