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Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science debate -
Tuesday, 13 Feb 2024

North-South Student Mobility: Discussion

I remind members to please ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of this meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent mode. Are the minutes of the meeting on 24 January 2024 agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Mr. Bryan O’Mahony, deputy president of the Union of Students in Ireland; Mr. Shari Irfan, president of the Irish Second-Level Students Union, ISSU; and Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick, president of the Secondary Students’ Union of Northern Ireland. The witnesses are here to discuss North-South student mobility. I welcome the guests in the Public Gallery, who are also union members. I hope they enjoy their time in the Houses of the Oireachtas today and find it beneficial.

The format of the meeting will be as follows. I will invite the witnesses to make their opening statements in the following order: Mr. O’Mahony first; Mr. Irfan second; and Ms Fitzpatrick third. This will be followed by questions from the committee members. Each member has a six-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if your statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks and it is imperative that you comply with such a direction. I now ask Mr. O'Mahony to make his opening statement, followed by the order of witnesses as outlined a few minutes ago. You have five minutes each.

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

The USI welcomes this opportunity to make a submission to the joint committee on North-South student mobility and thanks the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and members for this opportunity. I am the vice president for academic affairs and deputy president of USI. The Union of Students in Ireland is the national representative body of 374,000 third level students on the island of Ireland. The USI liaises with our member organisations on student issues and has 30 member organisations spread across the island of Ireland, North and South.

The mobility of students between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is a significant aspect of educational and cultural exchange within the island. Education and mobility between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is facilitated by various agreements and frameworks, including the common travel area and the Good Friday Agreement. These agreements provide a foundation for co-operation in education, allowing students to move freely across the Border to pursue their studies. This can be appreciated in the €40 million invested in the Ulster University Magee campus in Derry, which was to actively engage in collaborative efforts of teaching and research between UIster University and Atlantic Technological University, Donegal. Such collaborations enhance the quality of education and promote cultural exchange amongst students.

When we look at the issues of students studying in the North, we must first look at the issues of clarity and limited awareness of available opportunities among students. If students look at the cost of studying in the North, there is a common misconception that SUSI can cover the cost of tuition and maintenance as if they were to go to any other college in the Republic of Ireland. While clarity around stuff like this can be found, unless you know to look for it you will not find it. This leads on to the consistency of options for studying in the North being provided by career guidance counsellors in secondary education, as well as assistance in applying. The teaching of writing a personal statement for UCAS could be an invaluable help to students, as that may otherwise be seen as a barrier due to uncertainty. An awareness campaign could be made to inform students, parents and educators about available opportunities for cross-Border education and the support services available could increase participation rates. This could done with packs being sent to schools or through a website being developed for things to be laid out clearly with a drop-down of each college on the island of Ireland and with tips on how to apply for better North-South or South-North mobility.

Information that could be mentioned on such a website might, for example, include yLink cards and Leap cards for public transport, which student accommodations are available near the college, how to set up a cross-Border bank account or how to use international phone services.

Also, we could look at diagnosable learning difficulties. We believe in a corridor of information between the NHS and HSE for people who have been diagnosed with learning difficulties to take away the financial barrier of paying for the same assessment twice. In addition, USI would look at the complications that may arise with repeat prescriptions when you are starting college across the Border.

As for the release dates of CAO offers, CAO offers have always been cited as a barrier for mobility for students from the North coming here, as well as causing some difficulties for students already within this region. This falls down to the moving to later leaving certificate result release dates and is not the fault of the CAO itself. One way to combat this would be a conditional offer system like that which UCAS provides being implemented with the CAO, as this could help with earlier planning around booking student accommodation and could take away from students making multiple bookings of accommodation. The Universities Ireland report has recommended changes for students from Northern Ireland to access education in the South and the USI welcomes the proposed easement. The four A-levels was consistently being flagged to us as an issue in coming South to study. We welcome this change and await the implementation of the 2024-25 academic year to see if this will truly boost student mobility.

The USI encourages closer collaboration between universities through joint initiatives such as shared academic programmes and research partnerships. This could help enrich the educational experience and promote cross-cultural understanding of one's students. We would like to see the expanding of funding opportunities for educational mobility programmes, particularly for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. This could help make cross-Border education more accessible and inclusive. As an organisation, we would like to see more policy alignment as alignment between practices and policies between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland would facilitate smoother transitions for students and would remove unnecessary barriers to education.

In conclusion, education mobility between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland plays a crucial role in fostering co-operation, enriching the educational experience and promoting cultural exchange on the island. By addressing the existing challenges and leveraging opportunities for enhancement, stakeholders can work towards providing greater educational mobility and ensuring all students have access to cross-Border education in Ireland. Continued commitment and collaboration from policymakers, educators and other stakeholders is essential to realising the full potential of education mobility between the North and South.

I thank Mr. O'Mahony. I will move next to Mr. Irfan for your opening statement.

Mr. Shari Irfan

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak to them today. I am the uachtarán of the Irish Second-Level Students Union. As a national representative body for school students in Ireland, one of the core elements of our work is ensuring that students remain core stakeholders in the decisions that affect them. We strive to represent, uplift and defend the voices of students in second level education.

Speaking to our members, I am aware that there are genuine challenges around the mobility of students seeking to study both here in Ireland and in Northern Ireland. The challenges present themselves in a number of ways, often linking with one another. Students both North and South find the other's application process to be extremely daunting. There are two different approaches to two very different systems. For example, the concept of doing a personal statement for UCAS is somewhat bewildering to students in Ireland, who are used to purely relying on points to enter third level. Students need support, as they are only judged in the leaving certificate system on academic performance and are not used to writing about themselves. Ensuring that there are standardised resources available to students and guidance counsellors North and South is extremely important. Having clear and understandable language for both processes would reduce anxiety.

As we are all acutely aware, as the pressures around the cost of education grows and from talking to students on the ground, I find myself asking whether becoming a college student is even affordable. The stress that students face around finding accommodation is immense. The cost and commutability, as well as accommodation are among the lead factors in what students put at the top of their CAO. From talking to students, it is not just about the points race any more. It is about not bankrupting their families. We must move toward purpose-built and affordable student accommodation to ensure second level students transitioning into third level are housed. As a nation, we so often talk about how difficult it is to acquire and retain healthcare professionals within the HSE. Yet at the same time, the system we operate under makes it harder for these students in Ireland to access these courses as the cost for them soars. As this happens, students and their families both in Northern Ireland and Ireland struggle to come to terms with the cost.

In my role as uachtarán of the ISSU, I spent the latter half of the last year travelling up and down the country meeting students on a regional level. When I asked students what was the issue that affected them directly, most of them said public transport. The use of efficient and affordable public transport is an indispensable aspect of student life. It is yet another area of challenge where students have to make a decision on where they want to pursue their studies not on the basis of the course they want but rather on whether they will make it to their 9 a.m. lecture on time. An all-island approach is needed to create an efficient public transport system that ensures accessibility and affordability for all who live on the island. Ease of transport gives more opportunities to these students not only to decide to study in the North or the South but also to engage with one another through their studies. North-South mobility does not just affect whether someone studies but how students develop their relationships.

I remember distinctly looking at my options and having that conversation that so many young people my age have had with their parents about where they are looking to go to university. As I sat down with my parents, who are in the Gallery today, one thing was for certain. The option to study in Northern Ireland was not a reality for me. As an immigrant, for me to have even considered applying in the North would mean I would have had to restart my immigration process in Northern Ireland, which is simply not a reality for students like me. No young person, regardless of where they are from, should have to cross barriers their peers do not encounter to get their education. The visa application process must be made more streamlined. We need equitable and efficient visa access on both sides of the Border, thereby welcoming students from all backgrounds. Ultimately the issues we see around the mobility of students in Northern Ireland are not practical issues but are human issues. It is not as simple as making sure we have the right type of transport to get an education. It is about creating a space in which the gaps are bridged between communities and an understanding is created between young people. We can only do that by changing the culture around the conversation by cultivating an inclusive environment that ensures that students from all walks of life feel a sense of belonging.

In conclusion, addressing the differences in students' experiences between Ireland and Northern Ireland requires a collective effort. By streamlining the application process, providing adequate resources to understand each other's system, tackling accommodation challenges, addressing the cost of education, improving public transport, ensuring fair visa access and promoting integration, we can make a right step in the right direction. I wish to affirm to members that the ISSU wants to engage with stakeholders. Partnership is what we need. I wish to express to the joint committee the ISSU's enthusiasm to work closely with it and its members in the future. I again thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach and members for the opportunity and I look forward to answering members' questions.

I thank Mr. Irfan and I welcome his parents to the Public Gallery. It must be a proud day for them to see their son addressing the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Finally, I move to Ms Fitzpatrick for her opening statement.

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

Dear Chairperson, Deputies and Senators, the Secondary Students Union of Northern Ireland, SSUNI, welcomes the opportunity to be here to discuss North-South educational mobility. SSUNI was founded in 2020 and is powered by young people for young people. We have grown to represent now more than 58,000 member students across Northern Ireland. The issue of North-South mobility has always been an important topic to SSUNI and one which our members have frequently raised as a concern. When our new executive took up their roles at the beginning of September, CAO reform for Northern Irish students became a top campaign priority for us. We have met the Irish universities working group and engaged with several parties concerning our campaign.

First, we welcome the planned reforms to the way A-levels equate to CAO points and feel this is a positive step forward. However, we do not feel these steps go far enough to combat the unfair disadvantage that Northern Irish students face in how their A-levels are equated to CAO points. As we understand it, the proposed reforms require students to take three A-levels, alongside a fourth A-level, AS level or extended project to achieve the maximum 600 points, as opposed to the current requirement of four A-levels. Under the proposed changes, students would also be able to achieve the maximum points with two A-levels and two AS levels. These changes do not reflect the reality for Northern Irish students, where it is estimated that fewer than 4% take four A-levels. While a higher number choose to take fourth A-level for one year and complete an AS level, this number is still low and not standard in Northern Ireland. It is most common that students take three A-levels and this is what the vast majority of UK universities give offers based on. A situation where a student takes two A-levels and two AS levels is highly unusual. Therefore, we recommend that students be able to achieve the maximum number of CAO points with three A-levels.

Furthermore, the GCSE language requirement at many universities here acts as a deterrent to Northern Irish students applying. A recent report from the ESRI found that the language requirement for universities puts off Northern Irish students from applying to universities in the Republic. This has been echoed by our members who are in the process of applying to university. There is a wide variation between students' opportunities and accessibility to learn languages within their schools. Taking a language at GCSE is not a requirement in Northern Ireland and therefore, pupils without a keen interest in language do not take it. They are unknowingly closing off the opportunity to study at many institutions in the South at just 13 or 14 years old.

This brings me to one of our larger points which is the confusion that many students face in understanding applying to universities using the CAO. Students from Northern Ireland must, with limited access to information, try to understand a points system that they are completely unfamiliar with, fill out the CAO form and try to understand different courses and universities, all of which are significantly different from the UK university application process. They feel so thrown in at the deep end that many give up on applying through the CAO altogether.

As a solution to this problem, we wish to see communication between universities and teachers, schools and students. Students want to feel supported and aware of their options. We wish to see a more conscious effort from Irish universities to inform young people in Northern Ireland about study options at their institutions by attending university fairs or visiting schools in Northern Ireland.

We also wish to acknowledge that even when Northern Irish students are offered places in the Republic of Ireland at university, they are less likely to take them. The later announcement of Irish university places is one of the key reasons for this as it leaves little time for students to scramble to find accommodation and to make arrangements. Many students have already accepted offers at UK universities by the time Irish university places are released.

Too many students from Northern Ireland are pushed out of applying to the South altogether for university because of subject choices they made as young teenagers, by being overwhelmed at the task of applying due to a lack of support or by being unaware that the Republic of Ireland is even a viable option for them to study to begin with. We want to see Northern Irish students seeing the opportunities to feasibly study on the island and be able to learn at the great institutions that are on offer across the island. All Northern Irish students are asking for is a fair shot, so let us bridge the gap. It is time break down barriers and open doors in order that Northern Irish students have equal access to the wealth of opportunities on offer in Irish universities.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I now move to members of the committee.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach Gníomhach agus leis na finnéithe as teacht os comhair an choiste. It is no easy task to come before this committee. Members just ask the questions, but witnesses must answer them and I acknowledge that is not easy.

I have met Ms Fitzpatrick and SSUNI, as well as the USI on this matter and it is an issue that my own party and I take seriously. This committee meeting is taking place against the backdrop of Conor Murphy becoming the Minister for the Economy in the North, under which responsibilities for further and higher education lie. He has been clear that there will be a strong focus on cross-Border student mobility and it is important that he is directing his officials in this way.

First, it is really positive that this committee is discussing an issue on which reform can be seen to be happening. I understand from Ms Fitzpatrick's opening statement that SSUNI has certain concerns and I wish to delve further into that. For me, the issue of equivalency and how to deal with it is one of the key things when one looks at North-South mobility. I welcome the fact that the Irish Universities Association has done a good deal of work on this. As for the recommendation that the maximum number of CAO points could be equated with three A-levels, I imagine this was looked at by the working group. I know that SSUNI met the working group and I assume it proposed that three A-levels and 600 CAO points should be equivalent.

On the language requirement, Ms Fitzpatrick observed that a language requirement at GCSE level is a barrier. What has SSUNI heard about difficulties in this regard? It may be easier to pose this question to the witnesses attending the second session of this committee but I wish to hear what SSUNI is hearing back as well. What were the challenges outlined to SSUNI in getting rid of the GCSE requirement, as well as the issue with three A-levels? I agree the information is just not out there on the issue of a fourth A-level or whatever it may be being needed. I am concerned that it rules out a lot of people but I wish to hear what challenges were outlined to the SSUNI when it engaged with the working group?

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

I am not 100% sure as to their full stance as to why that did not go ahead. From our perspective, this is a particular issue as many students in schools in the North are actively advised not to take a fourth A-level-----

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

-----because it is not a requirement in the majority of UK universities. In fact, I have not heard of a single UK university that asks for four A-levels. It is a unique situation in that only students applying to the South need to undertake that fourth A-level, and it is becoming increasingly uncommon to do so, even at AS level.

As for the language requirement, as I said in my opening statement, a language is not taken by many students and they are not even aware that this rules out the South as an option. It is not a requirement in the North to take a language at GCSE level and there is not the same infrastructural push around language that is seen in the Republic of Ireland. Students are failing to understand this requirement and that is why we are saying that it should not be there, as students are not even aware to begin with.

Yes, that definitely makes sense.

I am unsure whether this language requirement is a base requirement that cannot be moved on but I will raise this issue in the next session. The theme from all the opening statements is that people need to be made aware of this issue. Mr. O'Mahony mentioned the idea of a website and in response to Mr. Irfan, any student would benefit from interactive videos and such.

I studied for my undergraduate degree in Galway, where I am from, and then I completed a masters in Belfast. However, I come from a unique position in that my father is from Belfast. There was never any barrier and I had people in the North I could speak to. Therefore, my experience was different but we must make this option as available as possible. While I agree with the idea of a website, what are the views of all three witnesses on students using that kind of website? Is there something else that can be done?

I believe we need to get into schools and make teachers aware of this. To be fair to teachers, if they are not sure about something, it is far harder for them to push that among the student population, which is similar to Ms Fitzpatrick's point about teachers pushing people generally to undertake three A-levels in order for them to do their best in those three A-levels.

Apart from a website, what other avenues do the witnesses think would be good in this regard? Would an interactive video work well or is there anything else they can think of?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

Better support for guidance counsellors and teachers is needed. If they do not have the information to give, they can therefore not give clarity to students if they do not have the clarity themselves. People in the South who wish to use the UCAS system should have the support on how to write a personal statement. If I was doing my leaving certificate and had to write a personal statement for the UCAS system but had no support on how to write one, that would immediately be a turn-off, especially when all I would have to do is enter my points for the CAO system.

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

Guidance counsellors are a key area to target because they are the ones that will be suggesting to students what colleges they should go to. If students are not told there is an option to go to Ulster University for example, then they are not going to choose that option.

I wish to ask both Ms Fitzpatrick and Mr. Irfan whether every school has a guidance councillor. Personally, in my school, although there was guidance counselling, in practice there was not really. That is not a reflection of my school; I went to a small school and it was not realistic to be able to spend time on this matter. Is that reflective of schools at the moment?

Mr. Shari Irfan

In theory, schools should have an guidance councillor but in reality, not every school does. Even where some schools do have a guidance councillor, they are not able to cover the entire school population as they are overburdened with the number of students. It puts schools in a difficult position. The whole point of a guidance counsellor is to advise the young person on what he or she should do.

One of my close friends was applying for UCAS and had to write a personal statement. He had no idea how to do it. I was not able to help him and there was nothing on the website. This seems to be the issue, namely, students lack information and this puts them off applying in the first place.

That makes sense. What about the North?

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

In most schools, there are teachers who have been assigned a role around careers and advice but they are teachers who have their own subjects and obligations already. In the majority of cases, it is an additional responsibility and therefore, allocation of time to this role is a struggle.

From speaking to students who are applying this year, many must research on their own, using the limited information available to them. They then have to advocate to their schools on what needs done. For example, in the CAO system, a stamped certificate of exams results is needed and students are having to go back again and again to their school-----

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

-----outlining what they need because schools are just not aware. There must be more guidance for those teachers who try to help students because, a lot of the time, they are trying their best to help but they just do not know what to do.

Other areas that have been mentioned, such as a website for students or using social media to engage students would definitely be supportive and helpful. In the past, certain universities like Trinity College Dublin ran programmes where they went to schools in the North of Ireland to talk about programmes and what was available at their universities. These programmes no longer happen.

If the State, Government, universities, or whoever it may be, wished to feed into students, that could work though the social media platforms of the three organisations before the committee today, as they have a bigger reach among the age group we wish to target. I believe that is something we could put forward.

As for the timing of university places being announced, it is a massive issue and I believe everybody agrees on that. It is not a new issue and it is something that needs to be pushed.

Accommodation is another major issue. When I was at Queen's University Belfast a few months ago, accommodation was an issue that repeatedly came up. The university is seeing more people going to Belfast from counties such as Louth and Dublin because of the accommodation issue. As for the flipside of this, I wish to ask Mr. Irfan how people feel when they look to go to the North to study, as that can be planned more because university places are not announced as late. Has this come up for the ISSU?

Mr. Shari Irfan

I have noticed that students are considering the North as an option a lot more-----

Mr. Shari Irfan

-----because it is that much easier. It is nearly impossible to find accommodation at this point. Even if students do, it is normally out of their reach. Where are they going to stay? Will they have to stay on a couch or in a car? It is either that or they must make a long commute, which is simply not possible when they have a 9 a.m. lecture and are leaving their house at 5 a.m. It is simply impossible. I see a trend in this regard and while it is good that there is more mobility, it is not for the right reasons.

I totally understand. People are not stating the reason they went to Belfast is because they really wanted to do a specific course - which is why I went there -even though that is the reason they should.

I realise I am out of time and I do not wish to annoy the acting Chairperson, who is doing a fantastic job.

I will allow the Deputy a final question.

Around the social media aspect of this issue, a website is a good idea but do the witnesses believe that students would look at a website?

When I was at university, there were career fairs that different companies attended and when I was at school, there were open days where we went to specific colleges to learn about those colleges and the course varieties they had. Do the witnesses believe that in major cities, such as Belfast and Derry in the North and Dublin, Galway and Cork in the South, there could be university fairs where all the different universities would come together? There could be a lecture on how to write a personal statement as part of these fairs. Could that be another avenue? This might be something that has been done that I am not aware of.

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

This issue was mentioned to me by one of our member organisations. When I was looking at colleges, we were brought to local colleges. I went to secondary school in Waterford and we were shown UCC, MTU, SETU Waterford, and other local colleges but by virtue of not having any information, visits or sights of what colleges were available in the North, they were not on my wavelength and I did not even think about them. If I wanted to go to the North, however, and knew there was potentially a website to look at, I know personally that I would look at that website. Obviously, if I was not interested in this option, I would not visit the website. The website idea is a kind of back guard where students can go for information if they need it. They can take their time to look through the information. There could be advice on personal statements, transportation, accommodation and such for the colleges and their localities. While having in-person fairs and such would be good, websites and so forth are always a good back guard for any kind of slippage through the cracks.

Yes.

Do the other two witnesses wish to comment on this matter?

Mr. Shari Irfan

I will comment quickly.

I think the website is a great idea because it would give centralised information to young people. A student who is applying to the UCAS system would have a look at the website.

As for social media, TikTok, Twitter and Instagram could be utilised for short videos that focuses on deadlines and making people aware of opportunities, rather than explaining the whole system, which I believe should be left to the website.

Okay, that is fair. I thank the witnesses and everybody who came to the meeting today.

I invite Deputy Sorca Clarke to speak.

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, who is most welcome here at this committee meeting, as are the guests in the Public Gallery. It is always interesting when there are more people in the Public Gallery than there are members of the committee. It usually means there is something topical being discussed.

I like the idea of a one-stop-shop for information and of social media supplementing the one-stop-shop. When there is a definitive point of information, social media can then be used to break it down into smaller chunks. A person talking about his or her own personal statement could be used on social media, whereas that is not something one would want on the website. The website needs to be definitive; it needs to roadmap what the options are, irrespective if a student is travelling South to North or North to South. To my mind, a website is the way to do that.

It must be mentioned that when we talk about the island of Ireland, this level of information exists in other areas. If a person wishes to invest on this island, he or she will easily find information as to how to do that. Therefore, this should not be something revolutionary or that stops people in their tracks. This is about the provision of information of good quality and a high standard. I do not like it when I read that students feel like they are being thrown in the deep end, whether it is applying to go North or to go South. It makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up somewhat when I read about the communication deficits because there is no justifiable reason for that any more and nor is there any justifiable reason for a lack of awareness. The information is available but it just needs to be put in a coherent place where everybody can find it.

I fully agree that students need to be key stakeholders. Sometimes, the importance of that sense of belonging - somewhere a person is committing to spend the next three or four years of his or her life or possibly longer - is underestimated. That point is important.

An apprenticeship fair was held recently at Simmonscourt in the RDS. It had every possible type of apprenticeship you could imagine and from butchers to stonemasons, everybody was there. It was the same with welding. They were all there and were very well represented. Something like that could be a catalyst as an annual event with one in the South and one in the North to showcase the options that are there if somebody wanted to speak in more detail about it.

I understand the career guidance pressures and the pressures in that area as well. However, we need to move to being solution focused as opposed to stating what the problems are. A couple of different things need to happen. One is a short-term thing and can happen quite quickly, namely, the provision of an information website. Something that should take a little bit longer and needs to be dealt with in a different arena is a citizens' assembly on the future of education. Issues like this should have a very important role to play in that citizens' assembly as well. It is a commitment in the programme for Government. There has not been any definitive information given but it is something that should be included in it that will deliver the long-term changes we need to see. In the short term, we certainly should not be looking any more at the reasons this is not a viable alternative for students.

Mr. Irfan mentioned something that we do not think about enough when we talk about student mobility, which is the issue around visa access. Could he go into that a little bit more?

Mr. Shari Irfan

Visa access is something that is not talked about as it does not necessarily affect most of the people going back and forth within the island for their education. It affects people in my position. I only realised this once I ran for this role because a lot of these people reached out to me. Students like me conveyed that they were in the same position and that they were struggling with this. That is when I realised that I was not the only one and there are multiple people. The particular issue is that you have that lack of information, which is a general thing for everyone. Second, these students are not supported. If they apply for their visas or they look at the immigration service, they do all of that on their own. Oftentimes, they might have parents who do not speak the native language here. As they might not speak English, these students go out and do this on their own, which puts them in a very difficult position. For myself, I knew that if I were to go to Northern Ireland to pursue my studies, I would have to restart everything.

For a bit of perspective, was this at a time when you were already pursuing state exams, which come with a level of stress?

Mr. Shari Irfan

In the middle of them, yes. I would have had-----

This was an unknown factor that was having a real impact on the decisions you were going to be able to make.

Mr. Shari Irfan

Yes.

Okay. That stress just kept coming.

Mr. Shari Irfan

It kept coming but eventually I had to make the decision that it was not possible. It was not a reality for people like me.

I do not like the term "buddy system" but between the organisations the three witnesses represent, is there a willingness to support a closer working relationship between education providers both North and South, even if that was on an informal basis?

Mr. Shari Irfan

It would be a step in the right direction. We would need to formalise it to a degree. That is important. But if there were some sort of an agreement between organisations that they would put students together and would help them settle in - that idea of integration and community and bringing everyone along - I think that would be really important.

I do not believe that we should only do one thing at one time. We are able to do multiple things at multiple times. Whether that is the development of an appointed contact coupled with the informal, we will get to where we want to be a lot quicker than by focusing on one thing only.

In terms of breaking down the myths and the barriers in understanding, specifically around the CAO, what does Ms Fitzpatrick think would be a good starting point? What would she like to see, specifically around breaking down those myths around the CAO?

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

Some of the things have already been discussed. I think a website is a great idea. As the Deputy and others have mentioned, that idea of having a core standing point of reference for students that talks them through the process would be really useful. From that perspective, there needs to be more guidance offered to teachers as well in order that when they are advising students, they have the information as many do not have access to it in the first place. The students are coming, asking for advice from the person who is supposed to be able to give it to them but they do not have that information. That is important.

There are types of university fairs that students from the North go to but not too many universities from the South come down to those and be a part of them. Also there are talks given at the fairs but I have not heard of one that would go through how the CAO application works. All in all, greater distribution of information is what is needed. That needs to come from the universities themselves being willing to provide that information and to be more involved with events that are happening in the North that are there to help universities and the students applying to them.

That is a very good point. I will ask Mr. O'Mahony a final question. In terms of collaboration between universities, whether in relation to the shared academic programmes or the research partnerships, how important is that in his opinion?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

With research projects and things like that, having people with different upbringings and different perspectives brings a kind of enrichment. It keeps everything fresh and keeps bringing in new ideas from personal experiences and background. It is essential. Having those kinds of cross-Border, cross-university collaborations and so on develops that idea of having a shared island on which we need to work together in a collaborative way.

With the discretion of the Chair, I have one final question. I was speaking to a third year student yesterday from Tipperary. She is now in a position where she is looking at college places. How early does this conversation need to start in the academic programme? Personally, I would not be a fan of leaving it until two months before an application deadline. In my opinion, it should start as soon as possible, that is, as soon as somebody goes into either GCSEs or post-primary school. What are the witnesses' feelings on that issue?

Mr. Shari Irfan

I believe most students in second level education usually make that decision around transition year. That is when you are out there working and trying to explore what works for you and what does not. You are not focused necessarily on the academics but are focused on your work and what you want to do after school. The information should be available to the students at that point. They should know that this is an option for them. As they develop in fifth and sixth year, they will come to a concrete conclusion as to what they want to do.

The first question that leaps out to me is whether we want it. Do we want North-South mobility because looking at the numbers, I was surprised by how few students are travelling in either direction? It seems that on an individual student basis, you have to really want it because it is difficult. You would have to have your heart set on it. This was back when God was a boy but I remember looking at the UCAS application and it was in a different language. It was a different set-up. It was a barrier and I decided not to but to stick with the CAO and I would be fine. As two jurisdictions, we must ask ourselves whether we want this because if we do, then a lot of the solutions you are putting out there are low-cost, high-impact, 100% common-sense solutions such as having a single place where guidance teachers can go where all the information they need is there and publicising the deadlines. There will be friction because you are dealing with two different education systems. That is more difficult to resolve but certainly, if we are serious about this then simple things like the provision of basic information are things we should be doing and there should be no impediment to them.

Another thing that leapt out to me from the page in Mr. O'Mahony's submission concerned diagnosable learning difficulties. Having served on the autism committee and having looked at the barriers for entry into third level, even leaving aside any change between jurisdictions, it is difficult if you have an autism diagnosis to access a place in third level that will be suitable to your needs. The other thing we learned on that committee is that getting an autism diagnosis if you are under 18 is extremely difficult but getting an autism diagnosis publically if you are an adult is impossible. If you pay to go private that is another thing but that is an additional cost. It is an additional layer of stress. This is not something I had known about and it is something that jumped straight out to me. Could Mr. O'Mahony describe in more detail just how significant a barrier that will be for a student from the North who is looking to study in the Republic or vice versa?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

I was talking to my members and one thing that came out was that they are from the South and went to college in the North. To get access to disability supports and so on in their college, they had to get reassessed under the NHS again.

They were not yet set up with a GP and they had to get onto a waiting list to get a diagnosis. There was a cost to this. There were also the delays in being able to access disability supports in college. They were on the back foot from the get-go.

Is this across the board? Is this with autism, ADHD and dyslexia? Is it across the board or are some areas more affected than others?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

I do not have the full information behind it but at a base level what we have heard from anyone we have spoken to about it is that they had issues and that trying to access disability supports involved a long wait.

Most colleges and universities have programmes of support for people with diagnoses of these kinds. Is there any flexibility? For example, in SETU where Mr. O'Mahony is based do people need to have the piece of paper to access the supports? Is there any flexibility in the institutions to allow people breathing space?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony

That would change from institution to institution. There is institutional autonomy and I would not say there is a blanket rule on it. Most places recommend that people have their piece of paper in order to apply. If someone trying to go on the DARE scheme does not have their paper it will not be assumed that the person can access it. People have to have references to back it up.

It strikes me as straight-out bananas. There is a massive history of dyslexia in my family. If someone is dyslexic in Ireland they are also dyslexic in Northern Ireland. They do not suddenly learn how to spell better. It seems an insanity to put this barrier in front of people.

I want to touch on something that Ms Fitzpatrick raised. I am surprised to learn that so few people study a language to GCSE level. Obviously it is baked into the Irish system that people take a language to leaving certificate. Does Ms Fitzpatrick have figures on how many people decide not to take an additional language to GCSE level?

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

I do not have exact figures on it. Very few schools in the North enforce that people should take language to GCSE. It is treated as an option in the same way as business studies or art. There is no push or influence to see it as being of greater benefit or being more important. It is taken as an optional extra.

Does Ms Fitzpatrick have any idea of how many people do not take a language to GCSE? It is a decision made very early on a person's education journey and it is a decision that will have consequences if they are interested in studying in the Republic. Does Ms Fitzpatrick know how many people find themselves locked out by a decision they make at the age of 13 or 14?

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

I do not have exact specifics on it. Through doing this and in working on our campaign I did quite a bit of research into what is out there. There are not any obvious figures on it that I can see. I do not know whether there are figures somewhere. If there are not clear figures it would be important to get them.

It is possibly something on which the committee could request research. As Ms Fitzpatrick has said, the figures will be somewhere. My next question might be slightly unfair because I am asking Ms Fitzpatrick to speak for an entire cohort of students in the North. Changes have been made to the CAO system whereby there is a third tier for which students do not need CAO points. This is with regard to apprenticeships. Is there any awareness of this in the student body in the North? A bunch of courses are accessed through the CAO system and there are barriers in this regard but another range of courses is also available. I am asking this question but I am unsure what eligibility there is for Northern Irish students to apply for them. Is this something that has come onto Ms Fitzpatrick's radar? I see Mr. O'Mahony is nodding at me and perhaps he has a contribution on this.

Ms Izzy Fitzpatrick

It is not something we are aware of or have thought about. On the whole, apprenticeships and schemes other than the traditional routes are now becoming more frequently talked about. In my experience it has never been brought up or mentioned. An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach made a point on eligibility to various schemes. There is a higher education access route that is similar to the contextual offers available in the North. This scheme does not seem to be available to Northern Irish students who apply for the CAO if they are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I am surprised by how low the numbers are. It does away with any argument or some idea that we would be undermining the system by encouraging more people to take up offers North-South. If we are serious about it then we should be serious about it. For sure there are a lot of barriers being put in people's way that do not need to be. It does not seem sensible to me.

This meeting has been extremely helpful and I thank the witnesses for their work in recent months.

I also thank the witnesses for their work and for coming before the committee and sharing their insights. It is very useful to get their point of view. We will be hearing the other side of the story after we take a short break. It is very important to hear the student voice and it has been very beneficial to the committee. I am sure it will be reflected in the final report. We will suspend for a couple of minutes to allow a changeover in the witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 12.06 p.m. and resumed at 12.14 p.m.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh, president of the University of Galway who is representing Universities Ireland, Mr. Lewis Purser, director of learning, teacher and academic affairs, Irish Universities Association and Mr. Paul Hannigan, head of college, Atlantic Technological University, ATU, who is representing the Technological Higher Education Association, THEA. The witnesses are before the committee today to discuss North-South student mobility. Apologies were received from Ms Patricia O'Sullivan, of the Higher Education Colleges Association, HECA, who is unable to attend on medical grounds. On the behalf of the committee, I wish Ms O'Sullivan a speedy recovery. The CAO was invited to attend but declined the invitation. The CAO has offered to assist the committee by providing statistical data to the joint committee, if requested.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make their opening statements in the following order: Professor Ó hÓgartaigh, Mr. Purser and Mr. Hannigan. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a six-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, I wish to remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statement is potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, he or she will be directed to discontinue his or her remarks and it is imperative that he or she comply with any such direction.

I now invite Professor Ó hÓgartaigh to make his opening statement, followed by the other witnesses as outlined, each of whom has five minutes.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach Gníomhach. Tá mé an-bhuíoch den deis labhairt leis an choiste.

I am president of the University of Galway and of the Universities Ireland council. I thank the committee for the invite. Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste as ucht an cuireadh. I will take the preamble to this statement, which outlines the role of Universities Ireland, as read. We represent universities on the island of Ireland. These include the IUA members in the Republic and ATU joined in 2024. Therefore, Mr. Hannigan is a member of Universities Ireland as well; he gets two bites of the cherry. The Open University became our tenth member and Technological University Dublin joined in 2020. It is an all-Ireland body.

We welcome this discussion around North-South student mobility. More generally and further, we support enhanced interest and support for North-South co-operation on higher education and research, which is in answer to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's question in the previous session. We wrote last year to the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Innovation, Research and Science in Ireland and to the Permanent Secretary at the Department of the Economy in Northern Ireland to support the inclusion of higher and further education in the scope of work and the areas of co-operation of the North-South Ministerial Council, as higher and further education are not currently within the scope of the work of the North-South Ministerial Council. We believe that many of the issues raised here could usefully be discussed and facilitated there. Having had subsequent discussions with the secretariat to the North-South Ministerial Council, a consideration of the scope of the work of the council could not be progressed while the Stormont Assembly was not in place. Now that it is, we will engage with the responsible Ministers in the two jurisdictions to prompt that discussion.

The ESRI has published a useful report on the issue of North-South student mobility under the heading that "Institutional barriers limit cross-Border student mobility". It was launched by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in September 2023. It came to the conclusion, which is useful in this context; that:

Stakeholders highlight the value of mobility for students themselves, for higher education institutions and for enhancing cross-border cooperation. The findings indicate [three things]:

School-based guidance could provide greater awareness of options in other jurisdictions, a process which could be usefully supported by outreach work by higher education institutions.

There is a case to reexamine CAO point equivalences for A-levels, given the very small group of Northern Ireland candidates who take four A-levels, and to look at modern foreign language requirements, given much lower take-up of modern foreign languages in Northern Ireland.

Decisions about where to study take place, for students, against a broader backdrop of rising costs and access to differential levels of financial supports. Current accommodation costs and lack of housing availability are undoubtedly barriers to students moving from Northern Ireland (and the rest of the UK). While financial supports are in place for students in both jurisdictions (though the level and nature vary) there is a broader issue of the extent to which such supports cover the costs of participation.

I will take each of these three points in turn. On school-based guidance, Universities Ireland strongly supports the recommendation that a campaign of engagement with school-based guidance counsellors is a critical element of raising awareness of the potential for North-South student mobility, particularly in highlighting the choices available to students. While this can be supported to a certain extent by outreach work for higher education institutions, it could be more usefully, efficiently and less competitively framed as a sectoral engagement campaign. Such engagement is not without cost. Additional, relatively modest financial support for such engagement, for example from the shared island initiative, would make it more impactful. Such resourcing need not be recurring, as an investment in a short, focused campaign could raise awareness over a short period.

Universities Ireland, with additional funds above those already provided by the Government, would be willing to co-ordinate such a campaign and we will include that in the 2025 work programme we submit for funding.

On re-examining CAO point equivalencies for A-levels, when I appeared before this committee last year, I undertook to add this issue to the agenda of the next Universities Ireland council meeting, with a view to establishing a timely review and the progressing of any necessary adjustment, as proposed. On foot of this, a working group of Universities Ireland was established, chaired by Professor Pól Ó Dochartaigh, deputy president and registrar of the University of Galway, who has great experience of working on both sides of the Border, given that he has been at Ulster University and is now deputy president register here in Galway. The membership of the working group and its full report are provided in the appendix to this statement. The working group report was published in November 2023. Around CAO points equivalencies for A-levels, it proposed that:

analogous to the use of the best six Leaving Certificate results (out of 7 or more) whereby a student can make up points from a mixture of “higher” and “ordinary” level subjects”, A Level candidates be allowed to use the best 3 A Levels, in combination with a 4th A-level or an Extended Project or an AS subject. This will mean that applicants can attain a score of 600 points with 3 A levels and 1 AS. It also proposes that candidates can be considered on 2 A-levels and one or two AS levels.

Understanding, as was noted last year, that entry requirements are a matter for each university, all members of Universities Ireland have agreed to implement these recommendations by 2025 at the latest. The University of Galway will implement these changes in 2024. THEA will speak for itself on its own view on this matter. As part of the annual refresh of Queen's University Belfast's student recruitment strategy, its vice president of student and corporate services has tasked the head of global student recruitment with exploring the development of a tailored student recruitment focused on the Republic of Ireland.

As for the review of the modern language requirement for entry under the CAO, given much lower take-up of modern languages in Northern Ireland as indicated by the ESRI report, the Universities Ireland working group concluded that:

The point was made in consultation with Northern Irish partners that as a European-facing state and EU member, the Republic would not wish to move away from the current approach to languages and, as such, there is an issue for NI to address. This was accepted by them.

Therefore, there is work to be done in Northern Ireland to increase the proportion of students who take modern languages. In an important point, the report concluded that:

The delayed release of results, at a time when the UK A Levels Boards and other countries’ systems have gone back to normal, is a negative factor in respect of mobility from North to South, because students in the North are often sitting for weeks with [an] offer already in the hand and thus will feel compelled to accept that, including putting a deposit on accommodation etc. The delay impacts negatively on the ability to secure accommodation in a difficult market in the Republic. We urge strongly that the Department of Education [in the Republic] ensure a return to the normal Leaving Certificate results release date, both in the interest of Cross-Border mobility and also in the interests of the Leaving Certificate students [more generally].

This remains the case-----

We have gone slightly over time. I ask Professor Ó hÓgartaigh to briefly address his remaining points.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

Perfect.

The last point I wish to make is around the backdrop of rising costs, which is in the report. It is an important point as there are many moving parts to this. We also added in what we had last year, namely, that North-South research funding is important, as well as on timely implementation of a sustainable model for higher education and cross-Border public transport links, which the students have mentioned. I am happy to engage on all these items and I look forward to working with the committee and the policymakers more generally in advancing our common interests in and for our students, North and South.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste arís.

I thank the professor. I invite Mr. Purser to make his opening statement.

Mr. Lewis Purser

I thank the Chair.

The Irish Universities Association welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the discussions on North-South education mobility, particularly on the ongoing challenges of encouraging and supporting higher education students to cross the Border in either direction for the purposes of study. The universities have a long history of cross-Border co-operation on the island and we recognise the need to develop a more strategic approach to North-South student mobility. Recent funding initiatives in research and innovation to assist in addressing societal and economic challenges have provided renewed opportunity for collaboration across academia. Similar initiatives to address wider student mobility issues are required.

As referenced by Professor Ó hÓgartaigh and following recent work by this committee and the ESRI, the universities have agreed a revised set of equivalences for students presenting A-levels for admission to undergraduate programmes here. These revised equivalencies are specifically designed to consider changes in A-level participation rates in Northern Ireland in recent years, have been approved by the relevant governance bodies of each university and will apply for students seeking admission in 2025. As also referenced earlier, these new equivalencies will be piloted by the University of Galway in 2024.

While these revised equivalencies are important, it is doubtful whether they will of themselves lead to a significant increase in the number of students from Northern Ireland studying in the Republic. As noted in earlier hearings of this committee and in evidence by HEA and CAO data, undergraduate student numbers travelling south of the Border continue to decline. The most recent CAO figures for Northern Ireland applicants are included in appendix 1 of my statement. This data shows that only around 30% of Northern Irish students who currently receive the offer of a study place through the CAO actually accept the place. This low acceptance rate compares with an average acceptance rate greater than 75% across all higher education institutions in the Republic. If we are to effect lasting change in North-South student mobility, it is clear that other obstacles will also need to be addressed.

One of these obstacles is the continuing delay in releasing leaving certificate results each year, as referenced already by Professor Ó hÓgartaigh. Even before the Covid-19 pandemic there was a tight window between leaving certificate results and the acceptance of course places in the Republic. The timeline, which is operated by the State Examinations Commission, does not allow the CAO and Irish universities to make earlier offers, resulting in particular difficulties for Northern Ireland applicants with A-levels. It also causes significant issues for leaving certificate students seeking to secure a place in a Northern Irish university, or indeed anywhere outside of Ireland in a timely manner. Offers are made much earlier in the summer in other countries' systems, as are their equivalents of the leaving certificate results. Therefore, it is no surprise that the percentage of students from Northern Ireland who apply and subsequently accept the offer of a study place in the Republic has fallen significantly over the past five years. Without effective cross-Border co-operation and communication by the respective Departments of education and a commitment to reforming leaving certificate examinations and results timeframes, any real progress in encouraging students to cross the Border in either direction will remain hampered.

The acute accommodation shortage is another significant obstacle, as has been already referenced. These costs are highest in urban areas, which is where universities are concentrated and where student enrolments from Northern Ireland will continue to be concentrated; that is where the demand is. While the additional capital investment is slowly being provided to support universities to increase student accommodation, the non-aligned leaving certificate timelines means that Northern Ireland students must wait until the last minute before seeking to secure this accommodation.

Strategic decision-making on cross-Border enrolments has been hampered by the underinvestment in higher education in the past decade. This chronic, long-term underinvestment undermines the capacity to engage with specific target cohorts of potential applicants such as students in Northern Ireland and their schools, where a long-term programme of awareness raising and relationship building is required if a significant number of students are to be attracted. There would be considerable scope for strengthening guidance support to potential students, with relevant and up-to-date information on possible pathways and opportunities that teachers and guidance professionals could promote on both sides of the Border. I believe this was referenced earlier by my colleagues from the Union of Students in Ireland. However, this is cost intensive and it would need a longer-term approach to deliver results.

The good co-operation on North-South research programmes funded by the shared island unit shows that there can be success in this regard. There is increased North-South mobility of PhD students. While these figures are small, it is an important area of focus in a post-Brexit, all-island context. These are key areas of development in addressing all-island challenges.

For North-South enrolments to improve, we make four recommendations; namely, that delayed timelines for the leaving certificate results must be addressed urgently, the accommodation and cost-of-living issues need to be addressed for Northern Ireland students, as well as for all students, if barriers to entry are to be overcome, system-level awareness raising and relationship building is required to support greater student mobility in both directions and the shared island unit research programme should be expanded with further postgraduate places for Northern Ireland students. I am happy to take up any of these points to explore them further with the committee.

I thank Mr. Purser. I turn next to Mr. Hannigan, who is representing THEA.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

I thank the committee for the invitation to be here today on behalf of THEA.

I was before the committee this time last year when it was discussing its report on North-South student enrolment in tertiary education. It is worth revisiting the recommendations from that report and the progress made in preparation for today's discussion. The HEA and SOLAS are now more engaged in cross-Border activity with a particular focus on all-island apprenticeship programmes, funding of nursing and medical education places in Northern Ireland for Republic of Ireland students and investment in cross-Border research activity. Universities Ireland has addressed the A-level issue, as has been referenced in the earlier statements. The Government's commitment under the New Decade, New Approach agreement has been somewhat addressed by the shared island unit investment of €45 million in the new teaching block in Ulster University's campus in Derry. Additional commitments to the broader north west within that agreement still remain to be addressed. There has been some movement on the sustainable funding model for higher education. A new student accommodation strategy was recently published by the Department to directly fund student accommodation on university campuses and there has also been a welcome focus to examine student accommodation plans on the emerging new technological universities. The recent published Global Citizens 2030 strategy, under pillar 5, has an emphasis on encouraging tertiary education collaboration on a North-South basis and this is a timely inclusion that will allow greater focus at an institutional level on this activity.

Two reports, namely, the ESRI report that has already been mentioned and another report by the British Council looked at this issue earlier this year. They drew similar conclusions to the committee's work with a particular concentration on environmental factors outside the control of the higher education institutions but more closely linked to societal factors. The reports specifically referenced the need for clearer career guidance on both sides of the Border and they recognised the problems encountered in securing suitable student accommodation, particularly for first year students.

It is from the vantage point of a Border college that I wish to add to the understanding of North-South student mobility. It is evident from the north west that South to North mobility is different in character to North to South mobility. The feeder school data published in December 2023 shows the significant contribution that Border counties play in providing new entrants to Ulster University and Queens University, Belfast. More than 72% of the students from the Republic of Ireland who commenced studies in September 2023 at the Northern Ireland universities came from the six counties of Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Louth, Monaghan and Sligo. Donegal stands out among these counties as the source of nearly 43% of all students entering the two Northern Ireland universities in 2023 from the Republic of Ireland. In addition, Atlantic Technological University was the destination for 57% of Donegal students and Ulster University was the second most popular destination, at 15% of students, with the University of Galway and QUB filling the next two places, at 6.5% and 6.4%.

The data in the ESRI report shows that the small number of students who travel North to South for their studies are distributed across the Border colleges and leading high-point programmes in the traditional universities. Data from the CAO shows that there were just 176 level 8 net acceptances in 2023 for applicants from Northern Ireland, compared to 186 in 2022. There were only 24 level 7 or level 6 net acceptances for applicants from Northern Ireland in 2023, compared with 32 in 2022. At ATU Donegal, an examination of new entrant statistics shows that a small majority of courses attract applications from Northern Ireland and typically, enrolments are in low single figures. Given the many cross-Border links that exists in the north west, and compared with South to North flows, this represents a low penetration of the CAO system in Northern Ireland. In contrast, the collaborative programmes developed with North West Regional College, NWRC, and Ulster University are clearly distinguishable in ATU data as successful initiatives that attract Northern Ireland students. In the north west, it is clear that this asymmetric cross-Border student flow is even more acute, with flows from South to North massively dwarfing flows from North to South. ATU has recently recruited a schools engagement officer specifically to interact with schools in Northern Ireland to address this imbalance. More school leavers from Donegal go to study at universities in Northern Ireland than the total number of students from Northern Ireland who travel to study at colleges in the CAO system.

In identifying possible impediments for Northern Ireland students travelling to the Republic, outside of economic factors, the CAO system is likely to be a key element. The UCAS system reduces uncertainty for applicants in providing students with a conditional offer of a place linked to the achievement of identified grades. Through the CAO system, the student has added uncertainty at application stage of not knowing what the points will be for their chosen preferences when the results come out. Professor Gerry McKenna, in a reference to this committee last year said that applicants can in some way become attached to their UCAS offer, meaning that a subsequent offer from CAO might not seem that attractive. It is important that CAO and UCAS final offers come out at the same time to ensure that students can equally consider the available options. Delays in the processing of leaving certificate results need to be resolved for 2024 school leavers. In the Border counties of the Republic of Ireland, the career guidance staff and teachers are to be acknowledged for the support they give students with UCAS applications, including advice on course requirements, written references, providing predicted grades and support in preparing personal statements. The reference to the inclusion of this issue to be under the North-South Ministerial Council has already been made by Professor Ó hÓgartaigh and that is something we support.

The revisions to the CAO points for A-level students brought about by Universities Ireland is also a welcome development and we hope to see that coming through the colleges in time for an implementation in 2025. ATU will have this in place for 2024. Professor Gerry McKenna also highlighted a concern in his address to the committee last year that could impede collaboration between ATU and its partners in the north-west tertiary education cluster on healthcare courses. CORU, which is the regulator for health and social care professionals, has introduced policies around the recognition of qualifications achieved outside of the State that may impact on the mobility of qualified staff from Northern Ireland for employment roles in the Republic. This has the potential to discourage learners from transferring from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland to complete a whole range of allied health training programmes if they perceive challenges in registering for roles in the Republic of Ireland when qualified. A similar change introduced through the recently established Qualifications Advisory Board, QAB, which was jointly instituted by the Minister for Education and the Minister for children and youth affairs, had consequences for the BSc in early childhood care, health and education. This programme is delivered by ATU staff at North West Regional College in Derry. These changes place the additional requirement on the programme delivery team and on students to facilitate the completion of some placement elements at an approved Tusla facility in the Republic of Ireland. For ATU, this collaboration framework has been the basis for a successful arrangement with NWRC, allowing students from a variety of programmes to complete ATU degree programmes.

Finally, while the Irish Government is investing significantly in the provision of medical education and nursing places in Northern Ireland for Republic of Ireland applicants, other Government education initiatives do not have the flexibility to cross the Border. The Springboard programme, human capital initiative programmes and Skillnet initiatives in particular do not extend to applicants with an address in Northern Ireland, even where the individual may be in employment in the Republic of Ireland. Given the near full employment in the Republic of Ireland and the necessity to attract skilled labour into this country, this is an area that needs more attention. It is also an obvious area where change could be introduced that would address the asymmetry in students flows and bolster the number of residents in Northern Ireland studying in the Republic.

I thank the committee.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements.

The first member of the committee I will invite to speak is Deputy O'Callaghan.

Does Senator O'Loughlin wish to speak first?

The Senator wishes to speak first.

Is that okay with the Chairperson? I have another committee meeting that I must attend.

Yes, as long as it is acceptable to the other members of the committee.

I thank the Chair and I thank Deputy O'Callaghan for offering me his slot.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I also thank the students who were before the committee in the earlier session. Obviously, this is an important issue.

Before I mention specifics, I wish to make a general point around the impact of Brexit on the figures mentioned. Before Brexit, I imagine that the number of students from the Republic going to Northern Ireland was significantly higher. The witnesses might comment on the impact of Brexit in this regard. Before Brexit, there were concerns around Horizon Europe funding and universities in the Republic, Northern Ireland and England being able to collaborate to acquire this funding. Thankfully, Stormont has been re-instituted and there will be the opportunity, through the North-South ministerial bodies and through the Ministers for Education, to be able to discuss this issue and be able to take some of the witnesses' recommendations forward there.

On the specifics, awareness clearly is a big issue. I am interested to hear whether the career guidance policies in the Republic and in Northern Ireland give enough information. Bearing in mind the research and the recommendations being made on the issue of the fourth A-level, in the case where Northern Ireland students go through the CAO process, are career guidance teachers equipped with enough knowledge on how the process works? That is hugely important.

As for education fairs, are colleges from Northern Ireland attending these excellent fairs in the Republic and vice versa? This is about reaching out and promoting awareness.

Cross-Border qualification recognition around healthcare courses in particular obviously is important to ensure that people have good employment opportunities and so forth.

I appreciate that the accommodation situation is difficult in Dublin, Galway and in Cork and policies are being put in place to rectify that. I am unsure as to what the situation is like in Belfast, for example. Is it better and are there better opportunities there that students in the Republic need to be aware of? We must try to ensure that on the island of Ireland, everybody has the opportunity to have a good third level and further level experience, whether it is in Northern Ireland or in the Republic. It is about ensuring that the opportunities to further develop and grow are in place.

I thank the Chair.

I thank the Senator.

Which witness wishes to address these questions first?

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

I will take them. I thank Senator O'Loughlin for her questions.

On the North-South Ministerial Council, we are keen on that. This issue is not currently within its scope but we should encourage that to be. We will be working with the Ministers, North and South, now that Stormont is back. That is an important piece.

I know the students have been talking in the earlier session about awareness and a one-stop shop. Again, I completely agree that. That is something that could be invested in. The CAO does provide a certain amount of information and maybe one could highlight it separately around Northern Ireland. On the CAO website, there is more information around that which I think could usefully be highlighted more. Guidance counsellors are critical in that context. Working with them and making them more aware and open to universities, North and South, and representing universities, North and South, ensuring mobility both ways would be important.

Finally, the healthcare question is in some cases an important one. There are some elements there. For example, in speech and language therapy, there are elements of what is taken in Northern Ireland is not available in the Republic and vice versa, so there is not necessarily the mobility needed. That is something that, via the HSE and maybe the North-South Ministerial Council, we could work on. That is primarily a registration issue, that is, the Medical Council, etc, rather than universities. On the North-South Ministerial Council, that is a ministerial decision and we would be very keen that that be immobilised as soon as possible.

Mr. Lewis Purser

The Senator asked about the impact of Brexit in the data I provided which came from the CAO, looking at applications, offers and acceptances by Northern Ireland students through the CAO to higher education here in the Republic. The data shows a slow, steady increase, constant over a reasonable period of time to 2016, which was the year of the UK referendum. After that it has been going downhill quite rapidly. I think it is psychological. There were all sorts of issues around the referendum and politics and perceptions, etc. We had been doing a fair amount of work with the system in terms of second level guidance counsellors and higher education in the North prior to Brexit, with slow burn results, which would lead in to this slow, steady increase. We were up to nearly 2,000 applications. However, since that high point in 2016, we are now down to just over 1,200 applications through the CAO. The whole landscape changed because of that.

Interestingly, the other way around, as Mr. Hannigan mentioned, while the overall numbers have not changed that much, there has been a change in profile of the students travelling from the Republic to Northern Ireland to study. It is an indirect effect of Brexit in my opinion. Partly because the UK’s place in Europe became very unclear for those in other European countries, and therefore students were no longer travelling from mainland Europe to the UK generally and to Northern Ireland as well. Therefore, there was a gap which was filled by students coming from the South.

I have had calls from senior management in Queen’s University in recent years asking, “What is this with all these increased numbers in applications from Republic of Ireland addresses?" They are welcoming this, but at the same time it is unplanned. Part of the reason is there are places available and another part is that accommodation in Belfast is significantly cheaper than in Dublin, Cork or Galway. Also, for first years, in many cases, accommodation is guaranteed by the university, which is very attractive for parents who are wondering where is the best place to go. If you compare that to the accommodation market here, particularly in Dublin but generally around the country, it is quite stark.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

If I could pick up on that, it is a very strong point. Even though the fees are higher in Northern Ireland, the availability of accommodation is a real attraction for people going there. My son went through Queen’s University and the day after he got an offer for that university, he got an offer for accommodation as a first year student. That took huge pressure off the family in terms of getting over that hurdle of finding suitable accommodation. That has become a real attraction for students from the South, going North. They are treated as international students, so they get preferential treatment in terms of the accommodation as well which is really good.

Going back to the guidance counsellors issue, they do a fantastic job in a very tight window. They are trying to get the UCAS applications in just before Christmas and the CAO applications in before 1 February, and the same students are probably applying to both systems, particularly in the Border colleges as pointed out by the statistics in the report I made. While the guidance counsellor issue has been raised in all the reports, we have to recognise the work they do already and maybe support them more in that space and look at how we can drive that even further.

In terms of the Brexit issue, if you look at North-South over a 30 year period and the movement of students, it has been fairly stubborn in terms of the numbers. There have been ups and downs at different stages but it has been fairly consistent over a period of time. The big issue that is breaking it at the moment is accommodation. People are looking specifically at that because there is newly built student accommodation right beside the new campus of the University of Ulster. It is right across the street from it. That is a huge attraction for first year students specifically going to any location. It is far more difficult to source accommodation in the city locations in Ireland, even in Letterkenny, where I am based. It is really difficult to get accommodation for students at the moment.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, it is the factors outside of the power of the institutions that are driving the trends currently and we need to keep an eye on that.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. It has been a very interesting session between our other guests this morning and our guests this afternoon. I thank them for their time. One of the issues that was raised this morning, and I do not want to focus only on guidance counsellors because I do not think that everything here is in their realm of responsibility, is whether there is a role for an expansion of the guidance counsellor role specifically in this regard. One of the issues our guests this morning raised was that they were of the opinion that this should start around transition year in the South. That makes sense if you think about it because at that point students are picking their subjects that they need to do for the leaving certificate to go on to study in third level. The guests' opinion on that would be most welcome.

Another issue that was brought up, which makes quite a bit of sense, is the prospect of a one-stop shop website where there would be a very clearly defined roadmap of options for students in the North who want to study in the South and students in the South who want to study in the North.

We spoke at some length this morning about the sharing of information and collaboration where that can be further explored to create those networks between institutions both North and South. One of the suggestions put forward was shared academic programmes, or research partnerships. Will the guests comment on the potential for them, or on any that have happened, that have worked quite well and that should be replicated and on any difficulties or challenges that they may have noticed with them?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

I will address the last question first. As part of the north-west tertiary education cluster, you have the Atlantic Technological University, the University of Ulster, the North-West Regional College and the Donegal ETB, so you are talking about the tertiary education providers in that region. We work very closely with people coming through the North-West Regional College, doing a two-year programme there, and then going to the Atlantic Technological University to top off the degree level. Similarly we have joined programmes with the University of Ulster at postgraduate level and those programmes work quite effectively.

When you come back to the situation about barriers and issues, one of the ones I outlined in my presentation was the healthcare issue. Students will not accept placements in Northern Ireland as part of the programme where they would have done previously. They now have to go to Tusla recognised placements in the Republic of Ireland. That is a huge barrier for people who are already based and studying in Northern Ireland and want to continue to do that. Even though the higher education institutions put together these programmes and the collaborative nature of them, and there are real opportunities to develop even further, it is barriers outside of that that cause difficulties, whether in work placements or in other areas like that. Also, there are programmes where you cannot get funding. I refer to very discounted programmes in terms of Springboard, etc., which those resident in Northern Ireland cannot take advantage of. That does not make sense to me, where you have people living a mile from the Border in Donegal wanting to take on a programme in ATO or wherever.

There are those barriers that maybe could be addressed through the North-South Ministerial Council. We have already had discussions with the North-South Ministerial Council about this. Hopefully that can be moved forward in that space. The north-west tertiary education cluster, where we have the four partners in place, can be seen as a role model of what is possible and we want to continue to develop that.

My responsibility within the ATU is about cross-Border collaborations and we want to extend those even further and build on the success of what is already there.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

If I could add to that, on the research side, there is also the shared island initiative, which has the Atlantic futures initiative, which is the University of Galway, the ATU, the University of Ulster and the University of Limerick. There are similar models and that is working quite well. However, I would agree with Mr. Hannigan that cross-Border recognition, particularly in health, is challenging.

One of the other areas outside this area that could be explored is cross-Border joint appointments, say, between Letterkenny and Derry and Enniskillen in the healthcare sector. I know the hospital system will find it very difficult to recruit into Letterkenny. Having joint appointments would be one way to address that.

I agree with Mr. Hannigan that guidance counsellors do great work and that we need to support and extend that area while investing more in it. I also agree with the Deputy that this is not the only piece of the jigsaw. One of the messages we should take from today is that there are many moving parts we need to work on. A level equivalence to the leaving certificate is one but there are others, for example, information, cross-Border recognition and costs. Addressing one of these on its own will not solve the issue. A one-stop shop is a great idea. The CAO does a certain amount of that but having something separate and distinct would also be good.

Mr. Lewis Purser

The IUA would be supportive of the one-stop shop idea and our members would be happy to contribute to it. As I mentioned, there are things happening, including the change in equivalencies, but unless there are well-structured and persistent communications around that with supporting materials and collateral for the professionals on the ground, it will take a while for the message to reach home. The earlier students start thinking about the possibility of travelling South or North, the better. Transition year is when much of the guidance begins to kick in in schools. There are opportunities in this regard. Perhaps we could work with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors to see what would be of use to it and its counterpart body in Northern Ireland.

I echo the feeling that there is significant additional mileage to be got out of shared research partnerships. When calls went out a couple of years ago for the North-South research programme, many went unfunded. There is scope to expand those that did lead to funding and are already working well. Some of the issues involved could be taken up by the new research agency, to be called “Research Ireland”, which is currently in formation in Ireland, with its counterparts in the UK.

How important is it that issues such as this be discussed at a citizens’ assembly on the future of education, which is a commitment in the programme for Government?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Very much so. I will not go too far back, but after the recession hit around 2009 or 2010, North-South relations disappeared completely from the next programme for Government. They were nowhere to be seen. It was the first time that had happened in many years. Arguing for the issue was difficult for us at the time because it was not seen as a priority for the Government, given the situation. It has made its way back onto the agenda, though, and we can see it coming in through various strategies, for example, the global citizen strategy that was recently published. If we can continue pushing it forward, there is a receptiveness in Northern Ireland to discuss it further. With the re-establishment of the assembly, now is a good time to do that.

Mr. Lewis Purser

I agree. I am sorry. I lost my train of thought when the mic turned on.

That happens to me, too. It is okay.

I thank Mr. Purser. I appreciated his input.

On a point of information, the Chair wrote to the Tánaiste on behalf of the committee asking that tertiary education be included as an issue for the North-South Ministerial Council. The response was that, while there were no plans for that currently, we had an executive back up and running in Stormont in the interim, which is the critical part.

Mr. Purser has recovered.

Mr. Lewis Purser

I have found my point again. There is a great deal of good talk about the importance of an all-island economy, but we cannot have an economy without an underpinning human resources strategy, and an essential part of that is the education and training system. We need to have much more joined-up, North-South, all-island or whatever you want to call it education and training planning and delivery.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

Regarding the North-South Ministerial Council, Universities Ireland wrote to and liaised with Stormont. When Stormont did not exist, though, it was not possible to change the scope. Now that it has reconvened, it would be important for us to come together and encourage discussion.

Mr. Purser made a valid point. I raised this issue with our previous witnesses. Co-operation exists in other areas. That there is none in education is an anomaly. It is having a major impact on the lives of people, North and South, who want to learn, work and research together in the other jurisdiction. It is something we need to rectify.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na finnéithe as ucht freastal ar an gcruinniú. I will start by asking Professor Ó hÓgartaigh about the inclusion of higher and further education in the scope of the North-South Ministerial Council’s work. Everyone on the committee agrees with that, and given recent developments in Northern Ireland, I am sure there will be an increase on the part of the Irish Government to seek it, but what will be its practical benefit and what would Professor Ó hÓgartaigh like to see as the consequence of its inclusion?

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

There would be significant opportunity for policy change, in that we could consider policy changes together, for example, mutual recognition, joint programmes and, like the shared island initiative, the funding of those North and South. If there were pathways between programmes such as Erasmus+ it would work well. There would also be a forum for discussion such as this one. The joint committee has had a good discussion, but I am speaking about having it on a North-South basis. I am representing Queens, UU and Open University here, but having that discussion at policy level for the island in general would be good. The benefits, therefore, would be policy change around particular issues, with information sharing being one of those, joint funding of initiatives, particularly joint programmes and pathways, and a North-South forum to have this discussion. The Oireachtas has discussed it, which is welcome, but it would be even more welcome as a North-South initiative.

Professor Ó hÓgartaigh spoke about the report of the working group, which I believe reported last November. Its recommendation was that equivalence should be given to three A levels. Am I correct that it is proposed that each A level should have a maximum of 200 points, giving an equivalence of up to 600 points? Is that what was envisaged by the working group?

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

No. We set it out in our appendix. The proposal was that each A level would equate to 192 points-----

I beg Professor Ó hÓgartaigh’s pardon.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

-----at the top end. An A* would be 192 points, an A would be 173 and a B would be 154. I will provide a little background to that. The students commented on it in the previous session. A great deal of work was done on the percentages achieving those outcomes, North and South. There are more students participating in the South than in the North, so there had to be some calibration in that regard. An AS level or extended project also had to be accommodated. We could review this in a few years’ time, but it is an important step in the right direction, particularly in terms of making mobility from North to South easier. Previously, it was almost impossible for a student from the North to get the maximum here. Students can now get up to 601 points, depending on what they get in their A levels. The appendix of our submission has those details.

I thank Professor Ó hÓgartaigh.

It appears to be the case that many students from the Republic are going to Northern Ireland but that, unfortunately, the numbers coming in the other direction are not as significant. Is there a simple explanation for that? Is it just that the system here is more problematic to apply for?

Mr. Lewis Purser

It is a question of supply and demand. There is much more competition in the Republic generally. We see the same phenomenon with applicants from other parts of Europe who want to come and study here but find the system closed to them because of the way we do things. By that I mean the CAO, but also the timelines. They students get offers from other countries such as France and Sweden much earlier than they do here. They know where they are going before the leaving certificate results even come out.

Does the high demand in the South lead to more people applying to study in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Lewis Purser

Yes. It is a safety valve but it is also a plan B for many students. As Mr. Hannigan and others have mentioned, if a student gets an offer early, which the UK system allows for, then the student already has one foot in the door. He or she then gets an offer. The next day, the offer of accommodation comes in and the student sees that it is reasonably priced.

What is not to like? That is very compelling.

On the percentage of students who leave second level in Northern Ireland and go on to third level, would I be correct in saying it is significantly below the percentage in the South?

Mr. Lewis Purser

Yes. I do not have the exact data for the progression rates from Northern Ireland. There is already a much lower completion rate of A-levels in Northern Ireland, which Professor Ó hÓgartaigh referred to. We have a very high completion rate here of upper secondary. The progression rate from second to third level, or at least to higher education, is significantly lower in the North than here.

I think Mr. Hannigan dealt with that in general. I was fascinated by the percentage of students from the Republic going to the two universities in Northern Ireland - some 72.7% come from six counties in the Republic. Does Mr. Hannigan know the percentage of undergraduates in Northern Ireland who come from the Republic?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

I am not sure exactly what the full figure is. If you take that those numbers are the migration every year, you could repeat those through the various different years of the programme. On the question the Deputy asked Mr. Purser, a significant number of Northern Irish students migrate to other universities in the UK and do not stay in Northern Ireland for their higher education. Some people in Northern Ireland say that they export a university a year in the numbers that go aboard. If you go back and look at the profile of all the universities across the Republic of Ireland, there is strong loyalty by students to the university in their region. As regards access from the Border counties to universities in Northern Ireland, there is a motorway practically the whole way from Derry to Belfast, good links from Derry to Letterkenny and strong links from Dundalk to Belfast with the motorway. Those logistical issues, in terms of proximity, also have an impact.

Letterkenny is probably the closest third level institution in the South to the Border.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes.

There are two options in Northern Ireland but people in the Border region, whether they are in Northern Ireland or Ireland, seem to consider third level education in Northern Ireland more than others.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

One can see from the figures we presented that there is huge loyalty to the Atlantic Technological University from students in the north west specifically. There has always been a movement into the North. With the issues around accommodation, it is even more attractive than it was in the past in comparison with other cities in the Republic of Ireland. That is obviously a factor in people's decision-making.

I have noted in recent years that the numbers from the South going to the North have declined. Does Mr. Purser think the delay in the leaving certificate results being announced is a significant contributor?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

It is a major issue. Mr. Purser made reference to that. It creates major uncertainty. In the UCAS system, students get an offer around this time to say they have a place in a university in Northern Ireland if they achieve certain grades.

They get their offer about now.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes. They will be told they have a place if they achieve X grades by that-----

It is conditional acceptance.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Exactly. That is something in the bag for them. They know already. If they are more content regarding the location of where they are going, that decision might be already made. If the CAO and UCAS became available on the same date after the leaving certificate results come out - if they revert to the early date by which they should come out - at least it would give people a fighting chance in terms of what is available.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach agus leis na haíonna freisin as teacht os comhair an choiste. I apologise for missing some of the discussion. Unfortunately, I think members all have about three things on at the same time today.

It is welcome that we are having this discussion, as is the report that has come out up to this point as it tackles a huge number of the issues that had been looked at. I will start with the question of maths and additional points. This is still an issue. Another issue raised by some of the students earlier was the GCSE subject level. I would like to get an understanding of the requirement to have a language at GCSE level. The students feel that should be removed totally. I am interested in hearing the witnesses' views on that and whether they feel it is crucially important for universities. On the maths issue, we heard some thoughts about how that could be dealt with. It still seems to be one aspect that is a barrier.

Mr. Lewis Purser

To respond to the Deputy's queries about the maths issue, the bonus points for maths were brought in by the CAO system at the request of the universities almost ten years ago, I think. The objective at the time was to incentivise greater uptake of higher level mathematics in the leaving certificate. That objective has been achieved. We have seen a massive increase in higher level mathematics attainment and persistence in the leaving certificate, particularly among girls, which has been most important. From a broad educational perspective, it does not really matter whether they then progress into a STEM subject or whatever. The higher level mathematics and second level attainment in mathematics are the best predictor of further educational success and progression and achievement in higher education. That is statistically proven by the HEA's progression data and many other studies. Mathematics and education are the two best predictors of educational success. We are unashamedly in support of high achievement in mathematics, particularly for girls, where the traditional has been for slightly lower participation and attainment. I do not think there is any desire on the part of IUA members to remove that from the CAO system. The issue is how to accommodate people from Northern Ireland. We would prefer all applicants to Irish universities to have good attainment in mathematics. That applies for students from outside the jurisdiction as well. The particular issue in the broader UK system is that students are limited to so few subjects. That issue has not really been addressed. It was not within the jurisdiction of the Universities Ireland working group to discuss it but it can remain on the agenda for institutions in the Republic.

There are a few aspects to this. Obviously, there are students who are not aware of that requirement before they choose their A-level subjects and they may be studying something they do not need maths for while whereas they need the other thing. That will probably continue to come up as a barrier. Whether it can be rectified is a different kettle of fish.

On the GCSE requirement regarding language, is the reasoning that universities want more people to study languages or is it that universities feel it is necessary as a base requirement for people when they go into third level education? What is the background?

Professor Ó hÓgartaigh wanted to come in on the previous question. I will call him first and then go back to the people in the room.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

Mr. Purser answered the first question on maths very well. As he mentioned, it was seen as outside the scope of the consideration on cross-Border mobility by the working group. As he said, that is not a reason not to revisit it at some stage. My memory is that it was a public policy issue at the time. I think Ruairí Quinn was the Minister who was keen on it, as were the universities, for the reasons Mr. Purser pointed out.

We discussed language at the working group chaired by Pól Ó Dochartaigh. The outcomes were as the Deputy suggested. One was that we feel, as a European country, languages should be taken by more students. That was an issue for the Northern Ireland system to address. A corollary to that is potentially that languages are important for the subject the students take. It was more a philosophical issue that languages are increasingly important for students to take and for increasing international understanding. There is an argument that part of the reason Brexit was successful is that the education system in the UK - in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in particular - does not have the breadth of understanding of languages and other cultures and so on. That was the basis for it. We had that discussion. There was some acceptance of that by those with whom Pól Ó Dochartaigh and the working group spoke in Northern Ireland. That is the background. There was a feeling more students should take languages at second level and it should be encouraged in a European context.

I thank Professor Ó hÓgartaigh. I was just looking for the background on that. I am aware my time is up but I have one last question.

Let us say students from Donegal want to go to Derry for a placement. Are there tax or bureaucratic barriers to that? How would that work?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

The main barrier we are seeing at the moment is in programmes we are running with the North West Regional College in the healthcare area where it is insisted that people from Northern Ireland must find Tusla placements. It is really difficult for them to that. Previously, these students would have had placements in Northern Ireland which would have been accepted but they are not accepted under the college's programme. There are issues that are outside the realm of the actual higher education institutions but are barriers to implementing programmes. As I noted, other issues include that people with Northern Ireland addresses are not eligible for funding arrangements under the Springboard programmes, etc.. These programmes are heavily discounted but people with a Northern Ireland address cannot avail of those. There are simply things that could be rectified if there was an intervention to do so.

That is really interesting. Perhaps I can meet Mr. Hannigan separately to discuss the matter further.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes.

It would be remiss of me not to mention that the Executive is up and running and Conor Murphy is in post as the Minister for the Economy. That is good to see.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes.

The minister and my party in general want to place a big focus on North-South mobility.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes.

I do not think that I could get away with not mention that today.

We have had a very useful session and covered a lot of ground. I had a list of questions written down but other committee members have raised many of them already.

I am surprised by the figure that 173 people from the North are coming here to do level 8 courses, whatever about travel in the other direction. We talk about asymmetric flows. When one uses the word "flow" of course one thinks of liquid but we are asking water to flow uphill. The fact of the matter is that the gradient is such that it is easier, in an educational sense, to travel from North to South than from South to North. Hearing about someone receiving a preliminary acceptance from Newcastle and then the offer of accommodation coming in the door made me wonder whether we need to do the intergenerational stress bomb - the leaving certificate - followed by the scramble for accommodation once the CAO results come out. That is not an issue that any of us here are going to solve.

Having this overview allows us to see the strengths of our own system. Having students do seven leaving certificate subjects means they do not cut themselves off from choices as early in their educational career. Mr. Purser said that from a philosophical point of view, people should study languages and I share that perspective. He also mentioned that studying higher level mathematics is a very strong predictor of economic success in later life. I am glad that we have a system that allows people to keep their options open until later in their academic career but, surely to God, we can get university places open to them in a more timely manner, whatever about the accommodation issue, which we know is an ongoing challenge for the Government.

I will return to a specific issue raised in the earlier session. Perhaps the witnesses will speak to it from the point of view of their own institutions. I refer to this business of diagnosable learning difficulties and how people who move jurisdictions must do the paperwork again. Let us say a student from the North decides to travel to the Republic to undertake a university education. Can he or she access services based on a diagnosis given in a different jurisdiction? Does that impediment exist? I have spoken about dyslexia in the context of my own family. It is certainly not the case that people can suddenly spell better when they travel from the North to the South. The system should be interoperable. Is there a specific provision in that regard?

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

I sat in on the discussion with students. This is a very important issue. The last time I was here I undertook to look at the equivalences. This is one I now undertake to look at. If there is something the universities can do, I will ask my staff in the access area to take a look at it, and that it be looked at throughout the sector, because if it is something we can fix, we will fix it. It is an anomaly. It may be an issue between the HSE and the NHS but we, the universities, will try to fix it if we can. We will correspond with the committee on that because, having listened to the students earlier, it is an anomaly that should be fixed.

Mr. Lewis Purser

I can confirm that the disability access route operated across all our colleges and universities is open to applicants from Northern Ireland. The issue the Deputy has raised may have something to do with the HSE and clinical cross-Border interoperability in respect of the recognition of diagnoses. We can try to find out more about it and get back to the committee.

We should clarify whether there is a problem.

Mr. Lewis Purser

Yes.

If there is a problem, we should certainly take steps.

Mr. Lewis Purser

Yes.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

I agree.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

On an institution-by-institution basis, I know the access officers do an incredible job in terms of diagnosing new students who may never have known they had a diagnosis of any kind.

Will an access officer be able to offer a medical diagnosis?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

That is the difference. We need to make sure we can get a connection between the two. What Professor Ó hÓgartaigh has suggested is the way forward in terms of looking at what the issue is and how we address it.

Yes. I know that once a person turns 18, it is extremely difficult to access a diagnosis. That issue was teased out by the Joint Committee on Autism. If somebody has a pre-existing diagnosis from another jurisdiction-----

It should stand.

-----we should short-circuit that entire process by recognising that diagnosis.

Professor Ciarán Ó hÓgartaigh

Yes.

On further education, the witnesses identified that the HEA and SOLAS are engaged on a cross-Border basis. Springboard, the human capital initiative and Skillnet are not operating in a cross-Border way. I do not know if there are comparable bodies in the North. We have made changes to the CAO process in that we now have a new tier through which people can make applications for further education. Are we seeing enough joined-up thinking there? Are we seeing student flows between the North and South in the areas of apprenticeships?

Mr. Paul Hannigan

The further education cluster I referred to, which has four partners involved, has been in place for a number of years at this stage. It was ahead of the work on tertiary education being done in the Republic of Ireland at the moment. There is more to do in that space. As regards all-island apprenticeships specifically, there are barriers that need to be taken down. There are differences between the two systems that need to be examined. There is an openness to do that and funding by the Government for places in higher education in Northern Ireland can be repeated in further education as well. However, we need to watch the unintended consequences and ensure we do not fund Republic of Ireland students to be in a competitive situation with the Republic of Ireland colleges and take places that would normally be taken up by others. There are unintended consequences that could arise but there is real potential in terms of the partners who are already there and what they want to achieve.

I was very struck by something Mr. Hannigan said earlier and I wrote it down, namely, that if we want to talk about an all-island economy, we should also be talking about all-island human resources and that the population of the island should be taken on first.

Mr. Paul Hannigan

Yes.

Mr. Andrew Brownlee, the CEO of SOLAS will appear before the committee on 27 February to discuss this issue. That meeting will be an opportunity to explore this matter further.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before us and sharing their expert knowledge and insight. We have had a very worthwhile discussion. I hope we will see, following the re-establishment of Stormont, significant movement on some of the issues we have discussed.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.18 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 27 February 2024.
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