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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS debate -
Thursday, 20 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 30

Reform of Insurance Market: Presentations.

Today we will have the third of our public hearings on the reform of certain aspects of the Irish insurance market. With members' agreement I propose that we take the presentations today in the following order: the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority followed by the Alliance for Insurance Reform.

I acknowledge those who have made submissions and assisted the joint committee in any way, including the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Minister for Transport and their respective officials. The Ministers concerned have promised every assistance and that will be called upon again, as appropriate. It is nice to see the Tánaiste in the Seanad this morning dealing with the Second Stage of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill. I look forward to the Bill coming before us for Committee Stage in the next few weeks.

Members are reminded of parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interest, they should make a declaration of interest either now or at the start of their contribution.

I welcome Ms Mary O'Dea, consumer director; Mr. Brendan Sheridan, head of the consumer information department; Ms Anne Troy, head of the consumer supervision department and Mr. John Pyne from the consumer information department of IFSRA. I invite the IFSRA representatives to make their presentation. I will then invite the Alliance for Insurance Reform representatives to make their presentation. After each presentation, members will have an opportunity to contribute and ask questions. I am advised that Ms O'Dea has a prior commitment which necessitates her leaving at 12.30 p.m. but we appreciate that she could be with us today at such short notice.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. I invite Ms O'Dea to make her submission to the committee.

I thank the members for this opportunity to address the committee on its work in the area of insurance and, in particular, with respect to the interim report on reforms to the insurance market. I would like to set our role in context by briefly describing the mandate of the financial services regulator which is to help consumers make informed decisions on their financial affairs in a safe and fair market and to foster sound, growing and solvent financial institutions which give consumers confidence that their funds are safe.

Since our establishment on 1 May, we have been building our organisation and developing our goals. We are in the process of finalising our three year strategic plan for submission to the Minister for Finance. We will shortly publish a consultation document on how we will be funded and the role of the financial services industry in this regard.

Our statutory responsibilities arise from the amalgamation of previous regulatory functions together with a new mandate in the area of consumer protection and awareness. Our responsibilities include strengthening consumer protection. We do this by concentrating on strong, enforceable principles and rules on sales practices and the way firms deal with their customers and by creating and developing consumer information. We are developing a consumer information programme to make consumers aware of their choices and how their behaviour can positively impact on the price they pay for the services they receive in the area of financial products and monitoring the solvency of financial firms. We believe strongly in transparency, competition and choice for the consumer.

As consumer director, my major tasks are to increase awareness of available financial services and their associated costs, risks, and benefits; set out and enforce rules as to how financial firms conduct their business with consumers; monitor competition and, in general, promote consumer interests.

There are a number of significant consumer issues arising in the insurance market. It will be no surprise to members to learn that in a survey we conducted just prior to the launch of the financial services regulator, more than 70% of those surveyed stated that insurance costs were an important concern to them. In fact, almost 30% of people indicated that insurance costs were the single most important area of financial concern.

This has been highlighted further by calls to our consumer help line where about 40% of the almost 4,000 inquiries and complaints we have had to date relate to insurance matters. Within the insurance category, the inquiries and complaints relate mainly to motor insurance, that is, the cost, availability and claims. These account for about 33% of all insurance complaints; travel insurance, usually in terms of claims in this area. These account for about 10% of all insurance complaints; and house insurance, again issues relating to cost and availability, which also account for about 10% of insurance complaints.

The remainder of insurance queries are spread among a number of categories, including public liability insurance and life assurance. We have also been approached by representative groups setting out the specific difficulties for businesses in terms of the cost and availability of insurance. In this context, we fully support the Tánaiste's insurance reform programme and, indeed, the work of this committee in the area of insurance. There are a number of recommendations in the broader reform programme and in the committee's interim report which are specifically addressed to the financial services regulator and I assure the committee that we are fully committed to playing our part in the reform programme.

On the specific recommendations of the committee's Interim Report for the Financial Services Regulator, I have divided the recommendations into three broad categories. The first is solvency and regulation issues. We have already commenced a review of best practice in the area of insurance supervision. This is focusing on comparing our solvency requirements and supervisory practices with those in comparable countries with a view to making any necessary changes. We also plan to devote additional resources to the supervision of insurance companies so that more regular and comprehensive reporting and more frequent on-site inspections can be accommodated. It is important to remember that the solvency of an insurance company is the first line of defence for consumer protection.

In the solvency area, much of our work is driven by developments at European level and in this area we will be preparing for the implementation of the EU Solvency II Directive. This may lead to an increase in our current solvency requirements.

Other recommendations cover the issue of transparency and information. To address these we will take action by providing additional consumer information and by strengthening the statutory codes for selling insurance products. In terms of information, our programme includes a series of consumer guides which describe the main features, that is, the costs, risks and benefits and the do's and don'ts in regard to various products. We will commence this series with guides on mortgages and savings and investing and will publish guides on insurance in 2004.

In the next few weeks we will publish our survey on the comparable costs of motor insurance. This will increase transparency by making it easier to compare prices and will alert consumers to the benefits of shopping around. Our guides will be distributed through our website, our consumer helpline, libraries and other voluntary organisations. Our public office will be open in the first half of 2004.

A number of the recommendations relate to brokers and other more general issues. One of our first tasks on consumer protection was to identify gaps in the statutory protection provided for consumers of financial products. In three areas, including the direct selling of insurance products, there were no existing statutory requirements on the selling of these products. We have filled this gap on an interim basis by the introduction of new statutory codes. This means that consumers who deal directly with insurance companies will now be entitled to the same minimum level of protection afforded to those who deal with insurance intermediaries. The interim code sets out principles by which the insurance company must abide. They include: treating consumers fairly and honestly; acting in the consumer's best interest; informing the consumer of all relevant material information; and informing the consumer of complaints and redress mechanisms.

We also took the opportunity in the interim code to implement some of the recommendations of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board. The code includes the requirement, that where a motor insurer refuses cover such insurer is obliged to give a reason to the consumer. As the committee will be aware if a consumer is refused cover by three insurers, he or she is entitled to take a case to the Declined Cases Committee. A consumer representative was recently appointed to the committee and it is intended that he will report to the Financial Services Regulator from time to time.

Other recommendations we have implemented through the codes include the MIAB's recommendation that insurers who refuse to quote for any particular risk should state their reasons in writing upon request, and the MIAB's recommendation that the regulation should be introduced to tackle potential confusion of illusion of choice. In that regard, insurers are now required to state the identity of the insurance group of which they are part and equally brokers should provide each client with a list of the motor insurers for which they hold an appointment. Insurers are now required through the new code to desist from requiring collateral business to be placed with the company before a motor quotation is supplied and this practice that the MIAB has recommended will also be reviewed by the Competition Authority should it persist.

However, they are only interim codes and we fully recognise that the interim codes do not address all consumer protection issues. There is a pressing need for a more thorough review of all existing consumer protection codes. In 2004, we intend to undertake this review, the twin aims of which are: to put in place codes which provide the same level of protection to consumers who buy financial products regardless of the delivery channel that they choose and to introduce statutory codes which will create a level playing field for financial services, thereby fostering competition.

This review will include a period of consultation with consumer groups and the financial services industry. The review will provide an opportunity to consider some of the issues raised in the committee's interim report such as the provision of justifications of changes in premia, the charging of fees or commissions, etc.

We are also developing a consultation document on the mechanisms for delivering insurance to the consumer which will cover areas such as the way commissions are paid to brokers and the requirement of some insurance companies that brokers must achieve specified quotas.

As members will be aware, we also have a statutory role on monitoring competition which is complementary to that of the Competition Authority. We have already commenced discussions with that authority on how the two organisations will co-operate in the future. The Competition Authority is currently conducting a study of the insurance sector and we are providing any assistance they require. We look forward to seeing that study when it is complete and to playing our part on any relevant recommendations that may require our involvement.

I set out the overall function of the financial services regulator as one which helps consumers to make informed decisions in a safe and fair market and to foster sound, growing and solvent financial institutions. We will seek to achieve this by increasing the awareness of consumers of the costs, risks and benefits of their financial transactions but also by ensuring that the industry deals with their customers in a clear, honest and fair manner. When these structures are in place consumers can then use their buying power to make the market work in their favour.

Our interim report contains 40 recommendations for the industry to consider. Although representatives of IFSRA have not appeared before the committee until now, I have stated many times that we know there is a problem in the insurance sector. The charges in the industry cannot be sustained; people's backs are to the wall and many companies are going out of business or they are afraid to even wait until their renewal premium is due. We know from experience that banks are insisting on seven to ten months in regard to insurance premiums which is unsustainable. We must try to solve this problem together. I thank the representatives for appearing before the committee at such short notice.

I want to raise questions regarding two of the 40 recommendations in our interim report before I ask colleagues to put their questions. Recommendation 28 provides that all regulatory barriers or regulatory impositions on insurance companies that make entry to the Irish market for Irish or other EU companies more difficult than entry to any other EU country should be removed by the Financial Services Regulatory Authority immediately. The removal of all barriers to competition is essential to encourage new competition into the insurance market. Has IFSRA identified any barriers to entry to our insurance market and, if so, what steps has it taken to remove such barriers and, if not, what actions could it take to assist in removing such barriers?

Recommendation 35 provides that the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority should give consideration to the issue of whether brokers should operate only on a fee basis. On the transparency that results from a broker being paid on a fee basis as opposed to a commission basis, is it time to examine whether brokers should operate only on a fee basis?

On the barriers to entry to this market, the Single Market in insurance provides that an insurer authorised in any member state can write its business and sell business into this country, subject to three minimum requirements. One requirement is that the insurer's solvency supervisor has agreed to it doing such new business. Another requirement is that its regulator must notify us as the prudential regulator and the other requirement is that the insurance must conform to any market rules we have on selling insurance here. There are no specific barriers to other insurers writing business here.

The solvency requirements we have are broadly in line with the solvency requirements in place in other EU countries. We have not identified that as being a specific barrier, but it is an important issue we bear in mind when we develop the sales codes. While somebody based in another EU country can sell directly in here they must comply with any sales code we have. Therefore, we must be careful when we set out the consumer protection rules to ensure that we do not make those rules so onerous that others will not want to sell their business here. One of the terms of reference of the Competition Authority in examining the insurance sector is to consider specifically the prudential requirements to ascertain if it will identify barriers. We have already discussed this area with the Competition Authority in terms of it fulfilling its report.

Another related issue concerns the question of cold calling. There was a requirement previously that people were not allowed to cold call in regard to all forms of investment. We amended that requirement recently so that cold calling will be permitted on general products that do not contain an investment element. Various consumer groups brought to our attention that they wanted these products actively sold and the dangers we recognised in terms of investment products where people might be misselling through cold calling were not there in terms of general insurance products. We identified that as a barrier and we have removed it.

Reference was made to the payment of brokers on a fee only basis. This needs to be examined in more detail. There are two different types of broker. Some authorise advisers who offer advice on a broad range of entities and they broadly operate on a fee basis but not many have chosen that category. Most have chosen the category under which they can tie one, two or three agencies with different people. The commission structure is absolutely not transparent. The consumer does not know what value the intermediary is adding and how he or she is paying for that. We are preparing a consultation paper on that issue.

We must be careful, however, that we do not move to a scenario where the choices for the consumer are reduced. The consumer should choose. Some people will want to pay an up-front fee and others will want to pay a commission or a fee over the life of the policy. However, they should know what the cost is. For example, are they paying for advice on the product and do they think it is worth paying for? Transparency must be improved and the authority will issue a consultation paper on this issue.

When will the consultation paper be ready?

It is under preparation to be ready in early 2004. The single regulator means that for the first time I have access directly to insurance companies as well as brokers. We can contact insurance companies to obtain details of the commissions paid. For example, if commissions are quota driven, where somebody has a strong incentive to sell the next product to a client because he will earn more commission, that is a serious issue in terms of the pricing structure. We are collating that information to prepare the consultation paper.

Will it be ready by March?

We will have it in the first half of 2004.

The blue book is important to the committee as will the consultation paper. When will the 2002 blue book be published?

It is imminent.

Ms Anne Troy

The blue book will be published under the remit of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment this year. It will go as usual to Cabinet for approval before publication. Subject to that, it is expected to be published towards the end of the month or early in December.

I thank Ms O'Dea for her presentation. She outlined the scenario whereby companies licensed in Ireland would set up here to conduct business, the solvency requirements and the associated regulations with which they must comply. The greatest problem is they are here but they are not trading. There is, therefore, no competition and higher prices as a result in the insurance market. Has the authority carried out surveys on how to generate greater customer mobility so that companies can trade, for example, in the Single Market? It is fine that insurance companies are in the market, all of which are foreign owned with the exception of Quinn Direct, but I would like to shop around the EU because there is no competition in Ireland. What barriers prevent an individual or a broker shopping around the EU for better prices?

Has Ms O'Dea powers to obtain information from insurance companies that would force them to justify premia increases? I am unclear about her legislative powers and am wondering whether she might require further powers to do so to achieve the necessary transparency.

I thank Ms O'Dea for her submission. The lack of competition between insurance companies in Ireland has been the primary cause of the escalating cost of insurance over recent years. I upset a number of insurance company representatives at our last meeting by suggesting a cartel is in operation. On the day I discovered SPD does not insure hotels and that means one player is not in the market for hotel business. I took a taxi to Leinster House yesterday and I asked the driver about his insurance. He had the usual story about his premium being sky high. I told him I was a member of this committee and that we were being told premia were reducing. I asked him about Quinn Direct and he said the company does not insure taxis. Since the insurance business is profitable in Ireland, why do EU companies not wish to enter the market, if there is not a cosy relationship?

Mr. McCaughey appeared before the committee previously and he stated it cost £30,000 for him to conduct business in Wales while it costs him €150,000 in Ireland. Why does he not use the company that is insuring him in Wales?

Deputy Dempsey is correct that when the market is segmented into various types of insurance, the choice for consumers is limited. There are no barriers to European companies setting up in Ireland. Our inquiries have established companies do not want to take on unfamiliar risks. If they have a profitable business in their current locations, they will not take on unfamiliar risks. The Irish market is small in terms of what would be in it for them from a business point of view. Even though they will be aware of the profitability of the industry in Ireland that may not make sense in terms of their grand portfolio.

I am not sure there is a need to go that far. Competition can work much better in Ireland by providing the consumer with more information. That is why we have begun to do so in regard to motor insurance. We will also examine other sectors and will provide information on the prices charged by the various insurers. The authority has a lo-call number and it receives information from consumers through this. Consumers call having been quoted by an insurance company. If they can bargain, they will receive a lower quote and if they know which company is offering the cheapest quote in their sector, they can also receive a lower quote. The market must work much more efficiently and the authority will assist in this regard by publicising such information as widely as possible.

I refer to the allegations of cartel-like behaviour. The Competition Authority is the expert in terms of whether a cartel is operating and we provide the authority with the information we have to help it to examine and address that issue.

Has IFSRA discovered barriers to European companies entering the market?

No, but we examined the question of powers to require insurance companies to disclose their premia. These requirements must be considered carefully. If a requirement is introduced whereby a company must provide a detailed breakdown of its increasing costs, it must be applied to those companies who wish to enter the market. We must be careful and balanced so that companies are not turned off the market by introducing such rules. The authority will promote the disclosure of information through its codes and it hopes European companies, which are best in the class, do this as a matter of course.

Recently, an individual queried his insurance company following a 15% increase in his home insurance and was told this was because of inflation. That was not acceptable and the authority followed this up with the insurance company because there could not be a 15% increase as a result of inflation. A balance must be struck between requiring a company to disclose information and providing people with honest replies to queries and introducing requirements that are so onerous they might prohibit competition. That is why a fine line must be walked to ensure competition is improved, not reduced.

What is stopping an Irish consumer or business shopping around the European Union or creating a single market? What are the barriers that have to be removed in our own national rules or what common rules are required to allow us do that?

Currently an Irish consumer is free to pick up the phone and place insurance elsewhere. The problem is that the insurers in other companies do not want to take on that business.

Is that not a major problem, even though all of the companies here are foreign owned by major players in the European Union?

That is right.

What steps must be taken by Irish legislators or at European level to amend the regulations in order to ensure that those companies will not be able to cherry-pick or force people into a situation and that consumers will be free to buy insurance products across the European Union?

They are free to provide those services here but from a commercial point of view the European insurance companies are choosing, by and large, not to offer that business here. I do not know how we could have legislation that would require them to write business into Ireland.

That is the problem. Allianz is owned by a substantial player in the French market. I can list all the Irish companies. They all have head offices outside this jurisdiction, with the exception of Quinn Direct Insurance Company yet if I telephone AXA Paris or AXA Brussels looking for a quotation, they will refer me back to their offices in the Republic of Ireland. That is a cosy relationship and it is not in the spirit of the Single Market. As a consumer I am an Irish citizen but I am also a European citizen and I want to trade cross-frontier in as many products as possible if I can get a cheaper product in that way. All of us, including the representatives, could probably draw up a paper outlining the reasons we cannot do that and the steps we must take to ensure it will happen.

I agree with the Deputy. This is not something for which there is a quick fix. Part of the issue with financial services generally, not just insurance, is that people believe, even in terms of general insurance, that there is a trust factor. When we had overseas competition in the banking sector, if people did not recognise the brand names when placing deposits, for example, they were reluctant to move. We need to address that issue but also look much closer to home. For example, how easy is it for somebody to move their insurance business? If a person is dealing with a particular company or broker, can they easily shop around? We can do two things. We can provide the person with the information on the cost as we develop our programme of tables but we can also examine how easy it is to switch. We have started this on the banking side by looking at switching codes and it is something that has also been identified to us on the insurance side. The Deputy is right, however. We could never go as far as requiring firms to do all types of business because that would drive firms out of the market but we could raise awareness. The information we provide on our website would provide just as much information to the industry as to consumers in terms of the price differential and the reason we cannot offer that business at the same price.

The discussion we have just had gets to the core of what is, from our perspective, Ms O'Dea's responsibility and I do not believe we are satisfied - I am not - with the response. To take an analogous situation, a new store opened in Henry Street this week in which there is a shop which also operates in Spain, Britain and Sweden. There is a price difference between the product they sell here and in those countries but if we are to develop what is known as the Internal Market for citizens of the Union, and we are all citizens of the Union since Maastricht, we should be able to buy the product from the same European company on the same terms in any member state. Is that the objective? That is the nub of the question both colleagues asked.

On that, many of the people who have appeared before us have given evidence, and perhaps the Alliance for Insurance Reform will repeat it, of companies which were stung with the collapse of the independent insurance company, and it appears there is no come back for them. That company operated out of the United Kingdom. It was regulated by the UK regulatory authority which safeguards the interests of UK based companies. What are the implications, in terms of the Single Market, for business being transacted by Irish companies with an EU insurance company if those Irish businesses are being stung with no come back while those operating within another jurisdiction with the same European company have their interests better protected? What are the responsibilities of the UK equivalent regarding Irish consumers in that instance? What can Ms O'Dea tell us about future transactions with non-Irish based companies by Irish businesses? Are their interests being safeguarded by IFSRA or are there any direct links, either legally or structurally, between the other regulatory authorities operating within the Union? I wish to ask a separate question later but I want to hear the reply to those questions first.

To follow on from the questions put by Deputies Howlin and Hogan, the first reaction one might have to requiring foreign companies to do business with Irish people is that we cannot force them to do the business. Looking at it more closely, however, we are all part of the Single Market and we have to be in a position to bring about a situation where they have to trade with Irish people, which is not happening. Who needs to act to make that happen? Is it the Irish Government, Europe or is it within IFSRA's remit?

On the collapse of the independent insurance company, as Ms O'Dea is aware, many Irish businesses were hurt and it is something we would not want to see happening again. Does IFSRA have a function in that regard? What powers does it have to prevent such companies operating here or to ensure that companies operating here are sufficiently covered and that they will not sting the Irish consumer in the future as they have in the past?

On the barriers to trading with European companies, barriers exist but they are not barriers that can be removed, for example, by legislation at this stage. The EU has recognised that these barriers exist. There is a financial services action plan and within that plan, part of what the EU is doing is identifying the reasons consumers do not go to their European counterparts as opposed to staying in the domestic market and ensuring that those companies overseas do not sell insurance and other financial services here. We will play our part in progressing that. It is part of our role in terms of monitoring competition and promoting consumer awareness to ensure there is much more choice for the consumer. There is very little choice within the domestic market and there should be more choice on a European basis. I would not like to leave anybody with the impression that we thought everything was fine and that we were not going to do anything about it. A great deal needs to be done but I am not aware of a legislative solution at this stage. That is something on which we will work with our European colleagues.

Another important aspect, and mention was made of what happens when an insurance company fails, is that currently there is no investor compensation scheme for insurance. That is interesting because we do have one for investment and deposit products. It is the only area of financial services where there is not an investor compensation scheme, and that is a serious problem for Irish consumers. I am aware that the Department of Finance is considering the question of compensation schemes generally and how they should operate and we have raised this issue with it in terms of insurance. As members know, this is progressing at EU level also but that is a serious issue.

Compensation schemes are also difficult for consumers to understand because of the number of them. Consumers should not have to wade through them to discover which compensation schemes they can access. We need to simplify the schemes and we are working with the Department of Finance to that end.

The EU directive works in that if one is regulated in one member state, that member state regulates one for solvency purposes; it sets out the solvency requirements according to agreed rules. One is then free to offer one's services into any other member state. Again, we welcome that in the context of fostering competition. The regulator in the home country retains responsibility for the solvency. The only additional rules we can apply to those companies marketing in Ireland are consumer protection and sales practice rules for the general good. These are not rules where, if a company goes into default, the consumer has any come back. The primary responsibility for monitoring is within the UK.

However, under the new EU directive, there will be no differentiation between what a UK or Irish investor should get, with the major exception of the compensation scheme. There is no Irish compensation scheme for insurance products.

On the Independent Insurance Company collapse, many Irish companies were stung on the double because they were left without insurance having paid a premium and were required to pay a second high premium to an Irish company. Is Ms O'Dea saying that, in future, there will be some compensation for those people on a par with the compensation which UK policyholders received or is she saying that, because there is no domestic compensation scheme for policy holders in Ireland, that there will always be a disparity between the policyholders based in the UK and Ireland respectively in taking out insurance with the same UK company?

The question is how are Irish policyholders to be protected in future?

In general, we need a compensation scheme to protect Irish policyholders.

Is there a different set of rights accruing to policyholders in Ireland compared to those in the UK taking out the same level of insurance with a UK-based company?

Yes. It is my understanding that is the case because there is a protection in the UK but there is no compensation scheme in Ireland.

Therefore, should there be an EU-wide compensation scheme and should we require the same level of compensation to be available to policyholders from any EU company available to any EU citizen?

It is absolutely critical that be done.

What are we doing on that front?

There is a European directive which is progressing the issue and there are directives already agreed and implemented for deposits and insurance products but not in insurance.

How close are we to that?

Ms O'Dea has strongly recommended to the committee that we bring this into our final report as one of our recommendations to be enforced by the Government.

Absolutely, because it is unfair that Irish consumers do not have that level of compensation. How is a person supposed to understand he or she had one level of compensation with one product over another?

Is it within Ms O'Dea's remit to get information on that issue and attach her comments to the directive.

Yes, we will do that.

I welcome Ms O'Dea and her presentation. In the past three years there have been massive and unfair increases in insurance premia. What action has Ms O'Dea taken on insurance issues since her appointment?

A number of years ago, interest rates advertised in different banks did not actually compare like with like. A new proposal for a compound annual rate, CAR, by which everything was clear and transparent, was introduced. Similarly, APR was introduced. I am conscious that brokers have a vested interest in maximising their returns. Is it possible that the consumer might get a breakdown of the percentage that the broker is receiving on the premium?

On insurance companies announcing profits, does Ms O'Dea have any powers to ensure that insurance companies do not manipulate their profits or reserves in certain ways in order to show profits up or down as may suit them?

The first action we took since we were established on 1 May was to prepare comparative tables on motor insurance specifically. We have developed driver profiles and worked with the MIAB in view of its experience in the matter. We have consulted with consumer groups to see how user-friendly we can set them out and we will launch those before the end of the year. We will set them out in such a way that a person can see what a typical profile is for him or her and what the costs are. When they renew their policies, they can see which companies have the best prices. This will encourage people to shop around. A number of queries which were recorded on the lo-call line related that the system was confused and asked if it could be simplified. That is what we have tried to do.

We have also fast-tracked as many of the MIAB recommendations we could which fall within our area of responsibility. We are looking at implementing a number of those through our information by increasing people's awareness and through our interim codes. We recognise that it will be a long process to develop the consumer protection codes because we will have to consult with the consumer groups as well as the industry as they are developed. In the meantime, we have put in place an interim code which fills a gap. Prior to this, there were no rules for insurance companies selling direct. They had no obligations in that regard. We will commence our programme of inspections on that code in the new year.

Does Ms O'Dea have any role in regard to what happened in the past and can anything be done? There have been major rip-offs and many small businesses have gone out of action and many more are operating without insurance.

We have a role in regard to the total insurance reform programme. However, there are other factors in regard to costs which do not fall within our remit. I am a member of the interim board of the PIAB, which is being discussed in the Seanad today, and there are other factors such as road safety and so on which need to be addressed in order to bring costs down. We can play our part by increasing consumer awareness, making people aware of competition and make it work more actively for the consumer.

On the breakdown of percentages received by the intermediary, we believe there is a lack of transparency in the broking market. Commissions are disclosed, but it is unclear what people are paying for. Are they paying because they have to go through a broker, because they are getting advice or because the broker is doing the shopping around for them? We will be addressing this issue in our consultation document. We want people to know what they are buying from the intermediary and how much it is costing them. There is a need for increased transparency in this area.

On the manipulation of profits and reserves, we are carrying out a full review of the statistical information which we receive, not least from a solvency point of view. The information we get from insurance companies is way out of date by the time we get it and is of limited value from a regulatory point of view. Part of that will be to ensure the reporting of profits and reserves is accurate in order that we can prevent insolvency problems which affect all consumers. We will be taking over the role of the MIAB in terms of collecting those statistics in respect of motor insurance policies and we will have that information at our disposal.

In general terms, a great deal of the information in the presentation is aspirational and firm timeframes are not provided. Perhaps Ms O'Dea might communicate with the committee regarding when the reviews to which she referred will be concluded, when additional resources will be devoted, how many are in place and working, etc.

I wish to ask a question about what was categorised by a witness to the committee as the movement of transient capital into the insurance market in Ireland. When they appeared before the committee on 12 November, the representatives of Allianz stated that: "The short-term movement of capacity-capital in and out of this relatively small commercial market has a destabilising effect . . . this transient capacity is not offered on a wide scale but is available only to selected risks." They went on to state that: "It would help to promote stability within the Irish commercial insurance market if this committee would investigate ways to oblige transient capital to commit to a minimum period and volume . . . before it is allowed to transact business in this marketplace." What is the role of the IFSRA in respect of transient capital and does it recognise the dilemma that Allianz has presented to the committee of a distortion in the market because of the movement of significant capital in such a small market?

Perhaps I could ask Ms Troy to answer that question.

Ms Troy

That is probably a reference to Lloyds type companies which move in and out of the market when they see opportunities to make profits.

On selected products?

Ms Troy

Yes, they would tend to specialise in particular areas. Lloyds syndicates would not be general insurers and would not, on the whole, offer personal lines of business. Lloyds is regulated by the UK so there is a limit to the extent to which we can control their movement in and out of the market. Lloyds has notified an interest in serving the Irish market and it is solvent, so we have no difficulties from a regulatory point of view. While it might be desirable to suggest to those companies that they should be or seek to have them act as a more stable influence in the market, it might lead to their abandoning the market in which they are providing capacity and competition at present. This is an area in respect of which we must be careful. On the whole, their involvement is probably to be welcomed.

One of the lessons we have learned on the banking side is that sometimes when the competitors enter the market, it does not matter how much of a market share they achieve because they actually make——

Like Bank of Scotland?

Exactly.

Is there a chance that others might return to the market?

There was a huge increase in competition in the mortgage market when we had foreign entrants. That increase has been maintained because people became aware of what they could be charged. It was less obvious when there was a particular entrant on the deposit side. It is one thing when one is borrowing money, but when one is giving one's money to somebody the high street name is very important.

Ms O'Dea stated that the IFSRA encourages the implementation of as many recommendations of the MIAB as possible. Is it possible to discover which recommendations have not been implemented?

I can provide the Deputy with an updated version.

Perhaps Ms O'Dea could provide it to the secretariat after the meeting.

Yes. I apologise for not going through the details of the recommendations. We dealt with them in somewhat of a hurry but I can give members the detail of the programme and an indication of where we stand. We will be publishing our strategy statement, in which the specific goals will be addressed, soon.

We appreciate our guests coming before the committee at such short notice. I assure them that we will give them ample notice on the next occasion. At that point, we may have many more in-depth questions. In an effort to come to grips with this problem, we are obliged to interview all involved and take advice from them because we are going to have to solve the problem together. This committee is charged with doing so during the lifetime of the Government. We were impressed by our guests' presentation and we thank them for appearing before us.

I welcome Mr. Gerry McCaughey, Mr. Mark Whitaker and Mr. Barry English. Is it correct that Mr. McDonagh is no longer chairman and that Mr. McCaughey holds that responsibility for the coming 12 months?

Mr. Gerry McCaughey

Yes, one could say that fortunately, or unfortunately, that is the case.

I think it is fortunate. Has Mr. English appeared before the committee previously?

I have not appeared before this committee before.

The witness is most welcome. A great deal has happened since the representatives of the Alliance for Insurance Reform previously appeared before the committee. There are many indications that companies involved in the insurance industry are going to reduce their premiums or have already done so. Will our guests indicate what is happening to the members of their organisation and in the area of employment, a matter about which we are particularly concerned in terms of small industries, family businesses and those industries that are creating jobs in rural areas?

Mr. McCaughey

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us to return to address the committee. I congratulate all involved in having produced the interim report, which contained good recommendations, in such a timely and speedy fashion.

I wish to begin by briefly discussing a few points we have made in reply to the interim report. The report addressed a number of key issues in respect of insurance reform, competition promotion, consideration of award levels, protection for policyholders, reduction of work and road accidents and the elimination of unnecessary costs from the system. Of all the recommendations made, AIR disagrees with only one, namely, that of enacting the Courts Bill 2001 to augment the level of awards. The joint committee made this recommendation because it believes that a change might bring benefits in so far as more cases would be heard in the lower courts. As we stated in our response to the interim report, we strongly disagree with this because we believe that it will lead to increased award amounts - eventually to the maximum amount limit in the District Court and the Circuit Court - being given to unworthy claimants.

Those who made submissions on their second visit suggested this. The main reason for our making the recommendation was that we wanted to have cases heard. However, we will take Mr. McCaughey's comments into consideration when drafting the final report.

Mr. McCaughey

We also applaud the committee on its candour and straightforward approach in dealing with the insurance companies. It is no coincidence that announcements by insurance companies of the small but needed reductions tended to coincide with appearances before the committee. I ask the committee to continue to encourage the companies to appear before it. The people of Ireland could get early Christmas presents if the committee continues to have the companies appear before it.

On the legal profession, we are very encouraged by recommendations 29 and 30 which advocate the establishment of an inquiry, composed mainly of non-lawyers, into the current level of legal fees for personal injury actions. We agree 100% with the committee in respect of this matter. However, the Law Society has been extremely vocal in recent weeks and AIR has watched with horror its posturing and attempts to deter implementation of the PIAB. In short, the Law Society is fighting to keep its part in the income stream from extinction. It must be recognised for what it is. We implore that the vested interests be ignored for the general good of the public and insurance reform.

AIR members are still experiencing huge costs, including legal fees and insurance hikes. This week, one of our members received a 100% increase in an EL and PL premium despite having no claims against them. The insurance companies have stated that they are reducing motor insurance by 5% and 10%. They are not doing so for businesses. The latter are still under the same, if not greater, pressure, particularly when one considers the fact that the general costs of doing business in Ireland are still increasing. The same can be said of insurance premia for businesses.

May we have a copy of that particular policyholder's correspondence? After the meeting would suit.

Mr. McCaughey

First, I must get permission from the policyholder to do that and then I will give it to the committee.

We have been waiting for this. There is no point in organisations coming here and saying things to us. Give us specific cases and then we can challenge the insurers.

Mr. McCaughey

Let me give an example.

It will be of limited value to us.

Mr. McCaughey

The ratio of awards vis-à-vis legal costs is worryingly high and increasing. My colleague, Mr. Mark Whitaker, will deal with this subject in more detail.

I have permission to read the following to the committee and I feel sure it will frighten the life out of members. I shall refer to Dan Dooley, Rent-a-Car and two accident cases that were advertised in daily newspapers using names, times etc. as both cases have been finalised. Members may put their own headline on this article. It refers to another part of Ireland.

Businesses in the Republic must compete with those in the North.

An accident occurred on 11 October 2002 in Downpatrick, County Down, Northern Ireland. Our hirer drove out of a petrol station and collided head-on with an oncoming car. Due to its age, the third party car was written off with a pre-accident value of £1,100 sterling. The owner and driver of this car. . .

I shall not name the driver although it was listed in the article.

. . . both claimed personal injuries. They received an out of court settlement for whiplash of £2,000 sterling. The other passenger received £1,500 sterling which was settled by our solicitor . . .

The solicitor was named.

. . . for £1,500 sterling. The combined legal expenses for both of these injury claims came to £3,563 sterling.

The second accident occurred at Cullen, County Tipperary on 20 June 2002 and a photo of the damaged car was published.

Our driver, upon exiting a garage, damaged the side of a third party car. Due to the age of the car it was written off. The honourable judge. . .

I shall not name the judge.

. . . at a Circuit Court on 9 May 2003 awarded €2,919 in respect of damage to the car and for car hire. The judge also awarded €10,000 to the driver and an additional €10,000 to the passenger for whiplash type injuries. The total legal expenses for this case came to €21,024.

Both of these cases were heard in the same court at the same time but I was forced to pay separately where the legal expenses were incurred. The majority of solicitors have no interest in settling a case until the court day and delay cases, out of all reality, so as to build up a larger compensation claim. I would give Minister Séamus Brennan full credit for introducing the penalty points system. It has definitely reduced the volume of accidents.

The article emphasises to the committee what happens. The expenses were more than 100% of the award. According to our Constitution people born in the North are the same as people in the South. However, in the Republic a person is awarded €10,000 for a whiplash injury while in the North and the UK an award ranges between £1,500 and £2,000 sterling. Solicitors also extorted a vast amount of money and our court system allowed them to do it.

Can we have a copy of that report?

Mr. McCaughey

Yes. Brokers were mentioned and my colleague, Barry English, often deals with them. AIR has not been strong enough when dealing with the brokers. AIR has grave reservations about the behaviour of brokers on blocking, price fixing and lack of transparency. Again, I shall refer to a case that took place in my home town of Monaghan. A person, who set up a business last year, telephoned me to say that he went to get their EL and PL insurance from a broker in the town. The broker gave a quote of €75,000 for a first year start-up business but the owner said he could not pay it. Subsequently, the broker reduced the sum to €61,000. The owner paid the sum and waited a number of weeks for an insurance certificate from Quinn Direct. Three weeks later he checked the document to see if there was a clause covering machine breakdown that would result in his inability to work. He discovered that the premia charged by Quinn Direct was €50,000, so he paid €11,000 or 22% commission to the broker. The businessman approached the broker for an explanation. IFSRA raised this point as well.

Unfortunately, most Irish people do not know that not all brokers have agencies to deal with the limited number of insurance companies operating here. Brokers give the impression that they can approach all of the insurance companies. In this case the insurance broker in Monaghan forwarded his request to another broker in Dublin who had access to other markets. Quinn Direct do not pay brokers. The broker in Dublin contacted Quinn Direct and was quoted €50,000. He charged 18% for his work and the brokerage firm in Monaghan charged 6.5% for its work and the businessman paid up.

Obviously the businessman was annoyed by all of this. He cancelled his insurance and demanded the return of his money. He wrote to the two brokers but they have not responded. He contacted Quinn Direct, explained his case and was quoted €45,000 for insurance. The company prefers to deal directly with the insured. It is unbelievable that such a situation can arise. It just goes to show how much brokers add to insurance costs.

Some brokers.

Mr. McCaughey

Yes, some brokers. Insurance companies do not like references to cartels and I am not saying that they exist. However, brokers operate between the insurer and the insured and can manipulate the market. It is very hard for anybody to get to the bottom of the problem. Some brokers are unlicensed.

If the businessman had accepted the quote of €75,000 would the broker have made a 50% profit?

Mr. McCaughey

Yes. A large number of AIR members have responded to the Competition Authority's questionnaire outlining their experiences with brokers and insurance companies. It seems that there is little transparency or accessible competition in the market.

Deputy Dempsey was correct earlier. My company paid £35,000 sterling to an insurance company in the UK and that is approximately €50,000. The same plant in Ireland would cost us €150,000. I do not think IFSRA answered the Deputy's question. UK companies will not insure Irish companies because we have a dysfunctional market. They do not want to come here. Why would they come here when a legal award for whiplash here is €10,000 while in the North it is between £1,500 and £2,000 sterling? If they came here they would have to charge what Irish insurance companies charge because the market is so warped.

I hope the committee will do its utmost to speed up the introduction of the Civil Liability and Courts Bill. To cure a dysfunctional insurance market we must proceed through a combination of getting the personal injuries assessment board up and running and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform enacting the Bill.

AIR gave the committee a copy of the recommendations it made to the chairman of the Cabinet sub-committee. With regard to heads 5, 6 and 16, in all of these three cases discretion has been given to the court to decide costs. AIR suggested that discretion should be removed by substituting the word "may" with "will." Judges should not have the discretion to decide costs. If a case is wrong then the costs should be awarded against the defendant. However, it is the general experience of defendants that where discretion is allowed lawyers are usually looked after by holding those, with the perceived deepest pockets, responsible for costs. That must stop because it encourages the have a go mentality.

Head 14 suggests that mediators should be barristers or solicitors with five years experience. The Alliance suggests that a practising solicitor or barrister is not the only possibility and feels an arbitrator or loss adjuster is more suitable once the idea has been agreed by both parties from a list of acceptable qualifications.

Head 22 relates to false or exaggerated claims. I will read to the committee what is said in the Head on this matter:

Where in any proceedings for personal injuries the court is satisfied that a party has knowingly tendered evidence or delivered a pleading on a matter of fact which is in whole or in part materially false or exaggerated to a significant extent or in which the said party has no honest belief as to its truth, the court shall award judgment to the other side unless it, for special and substantial reasons stated by the court in the exceptional circumstance of the case, is satisfied that such an award would result in a serious injustice.

We suggest any special and substantial reasons be identified and listed in the Act. The former is too non-specific and is open to interpretation which could possibly lead to inconsistency from judge to judge and from court to court.

The legislation does not address the issue of costs. The Alliance believes that judges regularly refuse to give orders for costs to defendants. AIR members put this experience down to sympathy for the losing claimant, notwithstanding that such a person brought the case in the first instance and caused costs to be incurred by the other side. Furthermore, in the event of a case being taken - this matter has not been considered by anybody - to a higher court than necessary - this goes back to what the Chairman spoke about earlier - for example, the High Court instead of the Circuit Court, the Alliance suggests that only Circuit Court costs be awarded to the plaintiff if successful.

One would believe, from listening to lawyers, that costs follow the event. That is not the case. The senior counsel can agree a certificate resulting in the other side being paid High Court cost awards. This is what tends to happen because most civilians are not fully au fait with what takes place in courts.

AIR suggests that only Circuit Court costs be awarded to the plaintiff, if successful but that the defendant should be enabled to claim the differential between the High Court and Circuit Court costs from the plaintiff as it was he or she who incurred the additional legal costs and expenses having sought defence in the High Court.

That is oppressive.

Mr. McCaughey

Perhaps. I will give the Deputy an example. If the jurisdiction of the court was such that the case could be heard in the Circuit Court, it is unfair to force a business, located in Kerry, to lose money and production in having to take its witnesses to the High Court in Dublin for up to three days at the expense of the business. That is unfair to the defendant.

On penalties for fraudulent cases, as with any governmental paperwork, tax returns and so on, it should be noted that false or inaccurate information in PIAB submissions carries potential criminal prosecution. It is not a matter of filling in a form with a have a go mentality. PIAB documents should include a note informing people that there are potential legal ramifications for falsely filling in such a document.

If a claimant rejects a PIAB award and chooses to go to court and is awarded less in the court than the PIAB had offered then costs should be awarded against that claimant. The key reforms which we believe are required are: the continuation of the fight against vested interests, in particular working to try to reduce legal costs; the implementation of the PIAB; the implementation of the civil liabilities and courts Bill and increased competition. The only thing that will drive down premia paid by Irish businesses and citizens is increased competition but the only way we will achieve increased competition is by changing from a dysfunctional market to a regular market. We must also reform broker practice.

How many members does your organisation have?

Mr. McCaughey

We have 1,900 members.

An increase of 200 since the last time we met?

Mr. McCaughey

Yes, and growing.

How many employees do you have?

Mr. McCaughey

I do not have the correct figure with me but off the top of my head I would say, tens of thousands. We represent large and small organisations.

Has the cost of employers' and public liability reduced any since we last met?

Mr. McCaughey

My colleague will reply in that regard.

Mr. Mark Whitaker

I had an interesting experience in the past couple of weeks which I would like to relate to the committee.

We recently renewed our liability and motor insurances. Our liability insurance covers public, employers and effective workmanship. When we went out to quote, our existing underwriter indicated a 20% increase in premium was warranted. For the first time in three or four years we managed to obtain a second quote which was 20% less than we were paying at the time. Our existing underwriter then offered to match the price and waive a €7,000 excess on last year's price as an inducement to remain with that company.

I received the figures for the new quotation at approximately 5.45 p.m. one evening and I decided to go with the cheapest price. The next morning, at approximately 9.05 a.m., I spoke to the financial controller about this. He felt we could not go with the latter company who had, in the first instance, requested a 20% increase and were now willing to agree to a 20% decrease. We decided to take the alternative quotation and to pay the €7,000. We thanked them for their time. That clearly indicates that some of the underlying concerns for employers' and public liability may be falling but the market will charge the customer as much as he or she can tolerate until competition is brought back into the marketplace. That is a simple example.

I understand from colleagues - I am familiar with some of your members who are good employers in the midlands in particular - that your company operates in the area of employers and public liability in the interests of keeping employment going. Have such costs shown any sign of reducing?

Mr. McCaughey

No. There are still cases, as indicated by Mr. Whitaker, where premiums continue to rise notwithstanding that insurance companies are now profitable and award levels and claims, generally, are down. As there is no competition in the marketplace they attempt to get as much as they can. They are not passing on the savings they are making; they are attempting to hold the premia at high levels. If members of the Alliance for Insurance Reform threaten to inform us about what is happening they generally have their premiums reduced. Premiums are coming back to where they stood before. We have seen a 100% attempt at that this month already. There is no across the board reduction in this area.

The insurance companies continue to refer to motor insurance and lowering premiums in that area by 5% and 10%. The approach being made by the insurance companies is a cynical one. It is no coincidence that the local elections are to be held next year and that each of the local representatives - I know they are doing a hard job, I know what it is like to go knocking on doors - are going about saying they are doing something about insurance. Every household has at least one car and insurance companies know this and are playing to that agenda. It is much more difficult for a group like ours to exert influence because we do not carry the voting power of those individuals. So, they have not been passing on to us. They have been vary careful about whom they have been targeting. They get great publicity by announcing the 5% and 10% decreases. However, when it comes to us, no, they are not doing it. They are still saying they are making losses with regard to EL and PL.

As one of the members said, we need to be very careful about that, because when they say they are incurring losses they are theoretical losses in most cases. It takes approximately three years to get many of these cases to court. The evidence is that the award levels here are approximately 20% lower. However, they still have a technical reserve, which goes back three years. In their books they can make it look like they are still technically making a loss on it. However, in reality when it comes to fruition will there be a loss there?

I promised to allow Deputy Dempsey first on Mr. McCaughey's issues. I will then allow Deputy McHugh.

Was this promise made before the meeting?

No. It was a commitment made during the meeting when, I believe, Deputy Lynch was present.

I am very interested in the AIR. I believe it has carried much more weight than it gives itself credit. As a public representative, I first became aware of the keen public interest in the escalating cost of insurance, which is the second highest factor in production costs, as a result of an AIR meeting that Deputy Howlin, myself and others attended in Wexford. Liam Griffin was there shouting fairly loudly. As a Deputy on the Government side, it behoves me to behave carefully.

The lawyers would say that the Alliance for Insurance Reform is an employer with access to solicitors anyhow and somebody else might not be able to afford a solicitor before going to AIR. How would the group rebut that?

The alliance has spoken about many legislative changes, including a new perjury Bill, etc. Ultimately it will be up to us, as politicians, to do something. We have talked for a long time and we are getting close to the point where we must do something. What would the Alliance think of having a special court, even if it required a constitutional amendment? In the past I have said that when the existence of the State was threatened, a Special Criminal Court was established. We have family law courts and all types of courts. This matter may well merit a special court. I hope the PIAB will work. However if it does not, would the alliance agree with that suggestion?

While motor insurance premiums have reduced, premiums for insurance to business have not. Last week when insurance companies appeared before the committee this issue arose. The quick response they gave was that there is no penalty points system in business. This effectively states that business must get its house in order and that business could do much to ensure that premiums came down by reducing some of the risks involved in insuring businesses.

Mr. McCaughey

I will take Deputy Dempsey's questions. The first question was about having a special court. While I am not speaking on behalf of all AIR, I have put that proposal, myself, to the Minister. We have the Court of Criminal Appeal, children's courts and family courts. In reality insurance has become such a serious issue in this economy that there is a great deal of merit in having specially trained judges who are familiar with this particular area as specialists in a special court that would have the proper supports built into it.

The Deputy asked about what the Law Society stated about our access to solicitors and professional legal help while going into the PIAB. We would not be looking for the PIAB - nor would anybody - if this market had not been so dysfunctional and if costs in this market had not risen out of all proportion with costs everywhere else in the western world.

I attended an Insurance Institute of Ireland debate in the Royal College of Surgeons about five or six weeks ago. At that debate a member of the Law Society's council said that it refused to engage with the Government over the personal insurance assessment board because it believed that if it refused to engage with the Government, it would never happen. He went on to say that his group failed. That was a strategy it took. It believed that if it did not engage with the Government on the implementation of the PIAB, it would never happen. However, what it underestimated was the power and desire for change that existed in the country. Now the PIAB is coming into place and it is sour grapes.

This point should be made clear and it is not made clear enough. At the end of the day an Irish citizen is still entitled to go to the Irish courts. If they do not like the PIAB, they can still go to the Irish courts.

Would that not increase the costs and so indicate failure?

Mr. McCaughey

No. It depends on what happens there.

If a claimant is forced to go to another court because of dissatisfaction with the PIAB, then the PIAB is malfunctioning.

Mr. McCaughey

No.

I am merely putting the hypothesis.

Mr. McCaughey

An Irish citizen's right to access to the courts has to be protected. Everything about the Alliance for Insurance Reform is around the fact of protecting the rights of Irish citizens equally on both sides. Up to now one side has been protected more than the other. We are here to protect the rights of both sides. A claimant who is not happy with the PIAB award is entitled to take his or her certificate and go to the courts.

Within six months?

Mr. McCaughey

Yes, within six months. In terms of the costs increasing, if they get an award, which is lower in the court, the costs will go against them. If they get an award, which is higher, the costs will go with them, which is what they would have deserved in the first place.

I wish to make a specific point to Deputy Dempsey. The PIAB is for uncontested claims and so it only determines quantum. This is why legal representation is not required.

I was just putting a hypothesis of the Law Society.

Mr. McCaughey

Did I answer Deputy McHugh's question?

We asked the insurance companies why premiums for insurance to business were not reducing when premiums for motor insurance are.

Mr. McCaughey

I agree with the Deputy. I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is looking at areas to do with health and safety. Those areas have to be addressed. The Alliance for Insurance Reform is absolutely for equal rights for everybody. I am not against implementing a proper health and safety strategy at a statutory level and I do not believe any of our members are against that. However, it is for other reasons that the insurance companies are saying it. However, in terms of bringing in something, yes, that certainly should be looked at.

Deputy Callanan, our convener, did not get a chance to ask any questions today.

I compliment the Alliance for Insurance Reform, and especially Mr. Pat McDonagh, who is a neighbour of mine. At earlier meetings with the Alliance, it was clear that setting the book of quantum was vital. Should this be set on the basis of awards in Irish courts at present? Should it be a mixture of EU awards and Northern Ireland awards? If it is set too low nobody will accept it and all will go to court. If it is set too high, insurance premiums will stay high. Should the courts also be required to use the book of quantum?

I welcome the Alliance for Insurance Reform. Venting our anger at this committee and at other public meetings, which may not be televised and may not hold the same sway, will not get us anywhere. Last week we heard of a 7% reduction in motor insurance. I carried out a small survey, while we had a fire alert, and discovered that nobody I knew had received a reduction in their motor insurance premiums. The obvious answer to that was that it would not kick in until January. Two of those to whom I spoke had renewed their policies in July and August, but had not had a reduction. It was indicated that the operative date was in October.

I am concerned that there is an impression that it is only businesses which are not getting a reduction when, from my observation, individual car owners are in the same position. It also worries me that all of the sanction is applied to those who make claims. If there had been a more balanced approach, the present anger and annoyance would not have been so strong. Balance and fairness are important, allowing for the fact that genuine accidents and injuries occur. I posed the question to the insurance companies last week as to what will be the situation if premiums still do not come down following the imposition of all of the restrictions and penalties on claimants, necessary though they may be. How are we to deal with insurance companies who continue to reap the benefit of the legislation which has been put in place, without passing on any percentage of the benefit to people who need insurance?

Mr. McCaughey

My colleague will deal with that matter. I wish to make a brief comment.

Senator Leyden has just come from the Seanad, where he has been dealing with the PIAB Bill on behalf of the Government and has to return there at 2 p.m. Does he wish to intervene at this stage?

Much of what we were trying to achieve has now been achieved. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill is now before the Seanad and will go to the Dáil next Thursday. We are making excellent progress in that regard and I recognise the work of this committee in that context. Arising from Ms Dorothea Dowling's work, the book of quantum has been prepared and submitted to consultants. That will be the subject of further work next year and I hope it will bring results. As I said in the Seanad, if the present initiatives do not result in lower insurance premiums within five years, they will have been a waste of time. The Incorporated Law Society and the Bar Association have mounted massive pressure to stop the Bill or to undermine it in various ways.

Again, I thank the Chairman and members of this committee for their work, whose recommendations are the subject of ongoing attention. The Bill has received great support, on Second Stage, from all parties in the Seanad and will be passed without a division. Committee Stage will be taken next Monday and I anticipate that the Bill will be passed by Christmas.

I thank Senator Leyden for updating the committee on the progress of the Bill. I believe it would be agreed that we cannot wait five years for a reduction in premiums. We want a 30% reduction and we want it now.

Mr. McCaughey

May I reply at this stage? I will make a suggestion in response to Deputy Lynch's comments in that regard. I fully agree that if, at the end of the day, all we do is transfer massive profits from the legal profession to the insurance companies, we will have failed, because Irish citizens will not be any better off. My suggestion is not made lightly as that could cause other problems with regard to competition. While competition is the only factor which will drive down premiums in Ireland, the Government has one weapon of last resort in its armoury: If insurance companies continue to make super-normal profits within the Irish market, relative to other insurance markets internationally and it is seen that other insurance companies are not coming into this market, the Government has the option of placing a windfall tax on the insurance companies.

As a business person, I do not like the idea of windfall taxes, but if it has to be, then let it be. The Minister for Finance has previously shown willingness to introduce such taxes. There may be a way of redistributing the revenue from that tax to ensure that insurance premiums are less painful. I believe the mere threat of that to the insurance companies might be enough to get them to realise they will not be allowed to run riot. A situation cannot be allowed to develop whereby, even if claims and awards are reduced to a realistic level and lawyers are not making so much money, the insurance companies cream off extra profits. That must not happen.

While I regard a windfall tax as a last resort, I genuinely believe that if we secure the reforms on which this committee has been working and the legislation is enacted, there are other providers of insurance sitting in the wings and looking at the market, having seen the profits made by Irish insurers and the reforms which have been discussed. I believe, or, at least, hope they will come into the marketplace and cause a decrease in premiums.

I am sure Mr. McCaughey will agree that, over the past four years, the insurance industry has experienced a very difficult time in which there were no profits. Now that there are profits, we hope the bona fides of the industry are genuinely directed towards policy holders, allowing for a reasonable profit. Our primary objective is to create a playing field which allows a reasonable profit for insurance companies and to benefit policy holders. That requires a consensus approach involving Government, policyholders and the insurance industry.

Mr. McCaughey

I absolutely agree, Chairman, but I still make the point that insurance companies have certainly shown they are making profits this year. They claim to have incurred losses in other years.

It is a fact that they made losses. Does Mr. McCaughey agree or disagree?

Mr. McCaughey

If I may make my points, the committee will then make its decision. If one is carrying a technical reserve which is actually greater than the award level, it shows in one's books as a liability, thereby decreasing one's profits. If I am carrying forward a technical reserve of €1 million, but the payment out is €500,000, for a period of three years, I am carrying a technical loss of €500,000 until it actually comes to fruition. There is another point which has not been addressed: most insurance companies operate without any net re-insurance, or laying off the risk.

Let us suppose - I am not saying this happens - that a company named ABC Ltd is operating in Ireland as an insurance company which is owned by, say, ABC Germany which, in turn, also has a re-insurance wing named ABC Re-insurance Germany Ltd. If ABC Ireland decides to off-load some of its re-insurance to ABC Germany Re-insurance Ltd, that shows it has paid out a certain amount of money for re-insurance cover. In effect, that money has gone to another company within its group, outside of Ireland. That amount may be paid out, even though the re-insurance cover may not actually have been paid out of premiums.

As anybody who is familiar with accounts will confirm, the single most difficult company's accounts to read and understand are those of an insurance company. Accordingly, I am not saying the insurance companies did not make profits, but one needs to be very careful in terms of looking back over three years and watching as the technical reserves come to fruition.

The possibility existed.

There was an added incentive to keep reserves high and profits low, having regard to the reduction in corporation tax to 12.5% this year. The longer a company could hold off on its profits, the better it would be for it from 2003 onwards.

Deputy Howlin has the floor.

It is decent of the Chairman to call me. I am intrigued by the presentation. To hear the champions of free marketeering speak of windfall taxes and regulation of the free market is an interesting perspective for those of us of a social democratic view.

We will hear a great deal about that in future.

There is balance in all things. We want a functioning insurance market. The biggest jolt to business in this country - although rising premia were a very significant jolt - and the one which caused the most significant damage was the collapse of insurance industries in this market. I recall the State having to bail out one of our major banks - now the major bank - because of an insurance collapse. That was presented to us at the time as involving the risk of the collapse of the bank itself and the possibility of the Irish economy collapsing in its wake. In the past year, people have been badly stung by the collapse of Independent Insurance in the United Kingdom. I mentioned this matter during the discussion with the IFSRA. It is well and good to talk about exorbitant windfall profits, but there is a requirement for solvency. We cannot be glib about the notion that there is an over-reserve because insurance payments are decreasing. This matter is being monitored. The AIR is right to say that it is not an exact science, but I hope that insurance companies err on the side of caution. They should have enough money in the kitty when the time comes to make payments. I would prefer them to have too much money than too little. We need to put this balance in place.

We have spoken to the insurance providers about the fact that a profit margin of €183 million exists before the significant changes that have been demanded come on stream. We have said that we expect extraordinary changes next year. We will insist on them. As a member of this committee, I require something from the AIR. The Alliance made the case for the right of the poor unfortunate citizen to go to the High Court. When I said that I consider this belief to be oppressive, I was thinking about the notion of exaggerated claims. If we want to monitor exaggeration, we should not be oppressive on the other side either. Such a move would kill off the consensus that has been built up across the community. People would say, "In the name of God, they do not want me to have any rights at all".

I assure the delegation that every lawyer in my constituency has contacted me. The Bar Council and the Law Society are seeking to meet every member of this committee. If I was to agree to the requests to attend meetings, I would be busy until Easter. Having listened to what they have to say, I think that we should not give credence to their perspective by going over the top in terms of the AIR presentation. I say that by way of counsel as well as observation. The Alliance can accept or reject my argument.

The AIR has said that it has 1,900 members, so it can give the committee details of 1,900 cases. I will be blunt - we do not need individual anecdotal cases because they do not prove anything. We need information about the claims experience, in the past 12 months, of the 1,900 companies represented by the Alliance. Can it provide the committee with such data? I know it is under-resourced - it probably does not have any secretarial assistance - but perhaps it should levy some charge on its members to generate such a database. The committee might be able to assist it if it cannot do so. I know that Clerk to the committee will have a seizure at the prospect of such a gesture. It is important that the committee is able to access such data. We have received clear presentations from all the major insurance companies. They have said that public liability and employers' liability premiums are decreasing and that motor insurance is becoming less expensive. They have not been pleased by suggestions that anything else is the case. They consider that anything else is anecdotal poppycock.

There has been a suggestion that legal opinion should be sought.

That is exactly the case. We need more than individual instances. We need to know what is happening in respect of the members of the AIR and we will act upon it. I will conclude by asking my only real question and making an observation about the courts Bill. I hope the intervention of the Chair has not indicated that there is a consensus on this matter. The committee supports the view that the courts Bill should be enacted. I disagree with the analysis because people who do not need to go to the High Court will be forced to go there if the Circuit Court's jurisdiction does not have any realistic limits. This matter was well debated in the House when the courts Bill was being passed. This matter was debated with the Law Society at the time. There is a case for allowing the bulk of cases to go to the Circuit Court if its jurisdiction is appropriate. We could have a separate debate on the issue.

I am primarily concerned with the committee's ability to access the raw data it needs to sustain its case. We will not spend six months on this matter before walking away. As the Chairman has said, we will stay on the case. It is very hard to unravel the figures presented to us by the insurance industry. We are getting mounds of information about percentage increases, typical cases and average cases. We need to know what is happening, almost on a customer by customer basis. The Alliance can provide the committee with some useful ammunition by giving it such data.

Mr. Whitaker

I would like to respond to some points made by Deputy Howlin. I can demonstrate why every solicitor and barrister in the Deputy's local area is trying to contact him. I conducted a small amount of research before I came to this meeting. We will not get into sampling controversies because it was not a full statistical sample. The Alliance for Insurance Reform is settling a case every day, on average, under its self-insurance programme. I took the last five cases below a total cost of €50,000 and the last five cases above €50,000. In the latter set of cases, we paid costs of 47c for every €1 we paid in damages. In the five cases below €50,000, most of which had an average cost of about €20,000, we paid costs of 66c for every €1 we paid out. I do not pay expenses easily, but I signed the cheques myself.

Can Mr. Whitaker expand on what he means by "costs"?

Mr. Whitaker

I am referring to costs relating to barristers, solicitors, medical personnel and engineering. They are the four heads. It is interesting that the costs of plaintiffs' solicitors, over the ten cases, were two and a half times greater than the costs of defendants' solicitors. The costs of plaintiffs' barristers were 2.15 times greater than the costs of defendants' barristers. I acknowledge that it may take a little more time to pursue a case than it does to defend a case. In one case, the plaintiff had a barrister but we did not need to employ one. One should take the figures I have cited at face value, however. When barristers and solicitors tell the committee that they will protect people's constitutional rights, I challenge members to ask them what they are protecting. The managing director of a very senior brokerage said to me yesterday that he estimates that 80% of legal income in this country arises as a result of compensation. I do not know if there is a statistical basis for this claim, but we need to ascertain how much of the income of the legal profession is derived from compensation claims. We need to understand this matter.

When I look at the AIR's claims experience, I feel that I could cope with paying out damages if I could save some money on costs. I would see a real benefit to our business and a lower price to our customers in such circumstances. I am concerned that as awards fall - they are falling - we will find it difficult to get legal costs to reduce proportionately. None of the ten cases to which I referred earlier reached the floor of the court for a full hearing. We did not question liability in any of the cases. If one examines the amount of money that must have been involved in those claims, one will wonder what the cost of the delivery of justice might have been, even if those involved received the same amount of money, if we could have pursued the claims through structures similar to that of the proposed Personal Injuries Assessment Board. I am sure that the cost of justice would be a fraction of what we have had to pay out. We are paying out a large amount of money every day.

Mr. Whitaker said that there were 66% costs in the cases under €50,000, but is that a net figure or a gross figure?

Mr. Whitaker

For every €1 we paid, we paid a further 66c in costs.

Is that below or above €50,000?

Mr. Whitaker

It is below €50,000. The relevant figure for the cases above €50,000 is 47c. I apologise, because it was a little exercise——

It was a very important exercise.

Mr. Whitaker

I can produce back-up material such as copies of bills. We have all the documents at our base.

Mr. McCaughey

One of our member companies, which is a large employer, forwarded a copy of a solicitor's bill to the AIR this morning. I will not mention the barrister in question, but his brief fee for reading a document was €7,500.

Does Mr. McCaughey know if the document was hundreds of pages long?

Mr. McCaughey

No. The total fees in this case were €145,000. The solicitor's fees were €80,000. When one reads through what the solicitor did for those fees, it feels like one is reading about the work a secretary would do in any business. What was involved was the sending of a document here and the posting of a document there.

How many years did this case go on for?

Mr. McCaughey

I cannot answer that question.

Is it complete now?

Mr. McCaughey

It is complete.

Have awards been made?

Mr. McCaughey

Awards have been made of the order of €350,000.

It could have gone on for some considerable time. It was a substantial case and the legal fees were in the region of €145,000.

Mr. McCaughey

That is for the plaintiffs only. That does not include the other fees incurred, which would have been on top of that. When one reads what the solicitor did for €80,000, one is led to conclude that one or two people were involved in shifting paper around. Yet, they claimed €80,000 for doing so.

Let us hope we will make progress through the Personal Injuries Assessment Board on such cases.

The Alliance for Insurance Reform and the Houses of the Oireachtas should pause to say how well we have done within a very short space of time. We have made remarkable progress and we are on the way to making real and significant changes. I sat here at this time last year while we listened to harrowing tales of businesses forced to close because they could not afford insurance. We are on the road to rectifying these matters. There is no sectoral interest which can change our course.

There are other measures open to us. If there is any indication that off balance sheet payments have been made by companies here, details should be given to the relevant authorities. If it is felt the relevant authorities do not have the technical expertise to query payments for reinsurance, which is a very technical area, that should be specified to the Departments concerned. They should know if people are not happy. This process will be ongoing. It was mentioned to the committee by the alliance that we had the option of imposing taxes on supernormal profits. While there are many options open to us, we cannot allow matters to continue as they were. They have to be changed and rectified.

Very briefly, would it be of benefit to the committee to obtain the details of the solicitor's bill in question? It would not have to include the solicitor's name.

Following the Alliance for Insurance Reform's evidence, we will deliberate with our consultant to ascertain how best the committee can move forward.

To pick up on Deputy Callanan's point, the book of quantum has been prepared in line with awards made by the courts over the previous 12 months. We agree with that. If the book of quantum is not in line with the court awards, people will not accept the Personal Injuries Assessment Board's awards. We would like to see awards made in the courts brought down in line with the comparative European countries. We would like the PIAB book of quantum to follow those awards subsequently. Unfortunately, constitutionally we cannot enforce awards on judges here. Perhaps that could be looked at. There were examples yesterday of payments of £2,000 in the North versus €10,000 here. In a similar social system, we do not agree with that.

I apologise to Deputy Callanan for overlooking that point. Will Mr. Caughey address Senator Hanafin's questions?

Mr. McCaughey

The Alliance for Insurance Reform congratulates every member of this committee for the work they have done. Since we began to attend meetings at the outset of this process, they have made a monumental effort in respect of their work. The committee said it would try to get its report out and the report it produced was very detailed. The committee has done more than any other Oireachtas group of the last 20 to 30 years to move this process forward. We are trying hard to get things done, but ultimately it is for the Legislature to make the changes. All we can do is try to keep the issue in the public eye.

Thank you very much, Mr. McCaughey. I know we are very much appreciated for our endeavours, but we should also acknowledge our consultants, Mr. Myles O'Reilly and his team, and the Clerk and his secretariat. They have worked tirelessly for up to 15 and 16 hours a day.

As Oireachtas Members, we feel insurance costs constitute the biggest enemy of employment. This cannot be overlooked which is why we have made it our priority. With the exception of EU scrutiny, this committee has discussed nothing but the urgent matter of insurance.

I support Deputy McHugh. Public consciousness will help legislators to address this problem. The figures which have been outlined today should be placed in the public arena. People are not aware of the scale of what is happening on legal fees.

Everybody has touched on the issue of insurance brokers. The aim of an insurance broker should be to get the best value and the best insurance premium for his or her client. I wish to quote some examples from last week. One of our members who tried to renew his insurance was quoted €85,000 for third party cover by his broker up from €62,000 for comprehensive cover. His level of cover reduced and his costs increased despite the fact that his broker was sourcing the best value from the marketplace. The member approached a separate insurance company himself and was quoted €52,000 for fully comprehensive cover. He told his broker that on one phone call to the first insurance company, the quote was dropped by €20,000. An insurance broker is meant to be out there working for you to get the best price.

Last week another individual went to his broker to renew his car insurance and was quoted €1,100. He made two phone calls to insurance companies himself and was able to source cover for €700 within ten minutes. The unfortunate reality is that the broker is paid a percentage of the insurance premium and a bonus based on the loss ratio which is the difference between the premium collected three years ago and money paid out three years ago. Furthermore, they receive numerous incentive trips to South Africa and rugby matches from insurance companies.

Are these assumptions?

These are confirmed by the insurance companies. We have a fundamentally flawed system in which there is no incentive for the broker to find the best value for his or her client. In fact, the opposite is the case. There is a strong incentive for the broker to find as expensive a premium as possible thereby increasing his or her own gain.

We suggest that a statutory declaration of renewal details, including claims history, be provided to every client well in advance of renewal. There should also be a statutory declaration of all the broker's charges and commissions. Insurance companies' incentives to brokers should be banned or, at the least, a full declaration of them should be demanded. Details should be issued of every quotation including the calculation of the premium. Insurance companies seem to pick figures out of the air which they can subsequently change over night. Insurance companies should be allowed to quote directly to the end user and all insurance companies' quotations should be issued to a customer where a broker has found them. AIR supports ISFRA's suggestion that brokers should operate on a fee basis whereby they obtain the preparatory information and the customer approaches insurance companies for quotes.

In the main, I have found brokers to be very decent, respectable and honourable. A great many policyholders have placed their trust in them for tens of years. I would like to be able to think that was still the case and that there was still an opportunity for brokers to carry on a decent, honourable business. We are trying to stop the overcharging by what I emphasise are only some brokers. I have known people who have been very decent and honourable. In many cases in rural County Westmeath, I have known brokers to pay the fee where they did not get paid themselves for three or four months until the farming community brought their stock to the market in the autumn or reaped the rewards of their crops. Brokers have carried the can a fair bit as well. We will deliberate on the examples that have been brought before us to see how we will deal with the matter. I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. I look forward to working closely with them in the coming years and to the full report being published. Many issues have been brought to our attention that we will deal with as a matter of urgency.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.40 p.m. and adjourned at 2.05 p.m. sine die.

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