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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 2008

Local Enterprise Development: Discussion with Dublin City Enterprise Board, ISME and National Irish Bank.

I welcome representatives of ISME and the business development and support unit of National Irish Bank and thank them for their patience. I welcome Mr. Mark Fielding, chief executive officer, ISME; Mr. Jim Curran, head of research, ISME; Mr. Kevin Gallen, deputy chief executive, National Irish Bank; Mr. Seamus Mulconry and Mr. Ronnie O'Toole, chief economist, National Irish Bank. I thank them for attending.

We have had a comprehensive discussion with the Dublin City Enterprise Board on the 2006 annual report. I have asked the representatives of ISME and National Irish Bank to participate by focusing on the impact of local government regulation and the general regulatory framework on the development of local enterprise. We will also discuss the merits of the proposal from National Irish Bank, received in December, to phase out the use of cheques in business transactions and to encourage the greater use of electronic payments, including direct debit, debit cards and credit cards. Councillor Breen was a good salesman for this form of banking. Mr. Gallen must be pleased with him. I invite Mr. Swift, Mr. Fielding and Mr. Gallen to make opening statements before committee members ask questions.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. With that caveat which must be given to conform with the Standing Orders of the committee, I invite Mr. Swift to commence.

Mr. Greg Swift

I will refer to slides presented to the committee. The second part of our presentation deals with removing obstacles to enterprise. We have identified a number of areas that are important for enterprise. I quote from Mr. Brian O'Kane, in a book on starting a business which we use in our "Start Your Own Business" programme, who states starting a business is frustrating. This is the underlying current of what is involved in starting a business. Whatever one sets up must cope with these frustrations.

The number one issue in any research we undertake concerns finance to start a business. This includes getting money from the banks, venture capitalists and support from the Dublin City Enterprise Board, which is so important in getting a business started. If we face an economic downturn it is important that this issue be addressed.

The second problem area is the range of services we are providing in terms of the marketing problems, advice and mentoring to help people to get those businesses started and the networking that goes on. Regarding these elements I reiterate that trying to control costs and being competitive is a fundamental issue, particularly in the Dublin city area.

We have already emphasised the problem with enterprise space. Some 46% of our clients are looking for enterprise space and cannot get it. There is a trend for people to be pushed out beyond the M50 to continue doing business. This issue is included in our enterprise space report which has just been released and is being issued to different organisations. The sectors that are crucial are food, arts and craft, multimedia, manufacturing, services and ICT. This problem tends not to affect ICT companies so much because the Digital Hub is doing a very good job and universities are accommodating many of the ICT projects. The other ones are certainly having great difficulty locating space in the city.

The next item on the list relates to planning. Councillor Gerry Breen commented on this matter when it was raised earlier. The issue is the frustration of not knowing whether a person needs planning permission to start a business and how to get that permission. It relates to the scarcity of enterprise space and trying to ensure the business can be run in a particular location. In that regard many more people are starting businesses from home. Many women are running their businesses from home. This is causing planning problems. That indicates the frustration and complexity of trying to ascertain whether one has planning permission to run a business from home or the particular premises involved.

We mentioned the affordable housing type solution. We would be very supportive of the idea that a portion of planned development would be assigned to enterprise space, which is important. On the need to fast-track economic projects, we are referring to some large incubation centres. If it were possible to fast-track some of these in the city it would make a big difference.

Infrastructural issues regarding the Luas were mentioned earlier. As a result of traffic congestion, the time it takes to get around the city is a major issue for business. We would certainly support the Transport 21 programme initiatives. There are problems with the cost and speed of access to broadband. It is expensive by comparison with our international competitors and the volume of information that can be downloaded needs to be addressed. Certain ICT, multimedia and other businesses will need larger capacity to download the information they need to do business. It will become a crisis if it is not addressed. It is a serious issue for us all. Two weeks ago Dublin Chamber of Commerce published a report entitled Developing a Knowledge City Region: A Ten Point Plan. We certainly support that initiative. It is a very good document and the ten steps are very relevant. There is an issue with getting free wi-fi in the city and I believe there was a ruling on that recently and it was blocked. It is something we should try to pursue to free the use of broadband for doing business.

The final item is the need to provide information and training to the "new Irish" as we call them. From talking to people on the ground — not just people doing business — there is a lack of English and training is needed even for our hotels and restaurants. Within the tourism industry for example it is important to have some type of standard so that people can be trained and those services are developed. I mentioned earlier that business permission is an important legal issue. People who have permission to start a business here are entitled to lodge, I believe, €325,000 before they can do business in Ireland.

Mr. Patrick Lynch

Senator Ryan made a number of points, one of which related to whether we were involved in Luas and those types of projects. I forgot to address the matter. Mobility is very important in terms of doing business in Dublin. It is critical and the situation is not getting better. Luas is controlled by the RPA. Each time there is a route selection decision forthcoming and there is a consultation process, the RPA sends us the routes it has identified and asks us for comments on the preferred route and the options we might think would best facilitate our clients in terms of their mobility around the city. The RPA has us in the loop.

Mr. Mark Fielding

ISME welcomes the opportunity to make a submission on the many obstacles that face enterprise in Ireland. I am accompanied by Jim Curran who is head of research in ISME. ISME is an organisation owned and run by owner-managers. It is a national organisation. We represent more then 5,000 small and medium-sized businesses in Ireland. Our concerns and observations are primarily focused on SMEs and, in particular, owner-managers, the risk takers of the economy. Proper recognition of the entrepreneurs' contribution to the economy is long overdue. In addition to providing a range of goods and services to all sectors of the economy, they are a vehicle for economic growth, job creation, competitiveness, innovation and, as is often overlooked, an instrument of social cohesion.

Small and medium-sized businesses play an important role in the economy and in society, and are at the nucleus of the social model. Entrepreneurs in general are more interested in the long-term development of the economy, while big business shareholders are more interested in short-term profit and boosting shareholder returns. In general, owner managers in SMEs are more responsible towards their employees and more integrated into local society. They play an important role in stabilising society and have a bridge-building function between workers and capital and equity owners.

While many issues could be identified, and taking into account time constraints, we will highlight a number of specific issues that would be at the top of our priority agenda as follows: the administrative burdens of red tape and bureaucracy; public procurement; taxation policies; and representation at the social partnership process for SMEs. Prior to going through the relevant points on these issues, I would like to highlight the rise in business costs as a deterrent for business start-up and expansion. We could spend all day talking about obstacles. However, business costs represent one of the biggest obstacles we face.

The profitability of an enterprise is a consequence, in the main, of its ability to trade competitively. This competitiveness is enhanced when market forces are allowed free rein. Competition in Ireland plays across the economy and, to a large extent, is constrained by the dominant role of the State, either as a monopoly provider of necessary business inputs such as energy and transport, or through heavy fiscal impositions such as indirect taxes on labour, local charges, transport and related business activities.

The cost environment and the subsequent erosion of competitiveness are among the biggest immediate threats to business. For instance, between 2002 and 2007, electricity charges increased by 70%, while gas prices have risen by 146%. Water charges have increased by 94% across the board, while waste charges have risen by 150%. Commercial rates across the country are up by 37%, while labour costs have increased by 39%. In the same period the consumer price index has increased by 18%. There have been massive increases in costs. Labour costs are increasing at twice the average across the European Union. The minimum wage is now the second highest in the Union. In 2001 energy costs in Ireland were the second lowest in the Union but are now the second highest. The tackling of the cost environment is most important. It needs to be brought under control or else we run the risk of continuing to price ourselves out of the market.

Every effort should be made to increase the level of competition in the energy market, in particular electricity and gas, in order to stimulate price competition. There must be a redistribution of the burden of commercial rates and water charges to other sectors, including the State and domestic households. Business is the only sector paying rates.

On the issue of red tape, compliance with legislation and regulations means that many owners of small businesses are forced to read, understand and implement about 1,000 major legislative items which impact on their businesses in areas such as taxation, industrial relations, health and safety and others. Small businesses are also expected to complete almost 110 core forms per annum in order to comply with the requirements of many State bodies, including the Revenue Commissioners, the CSO, the Companies Registration Office and other Departments. Many of these forms need to be filled in several times. Tax compliance forms take account of all employees and the number of mandatory returns increases. The number of questions per form can vary from ten up to 100. Examples are plentiful. If we are serious about ridding ourselves of red tape and administrative burdens because of their effects on business and government, the problem should be tackled by the Government using a standard cost model which has proved to be excellent in the Netherlands and other European countries such as the United Kingdom.

I note that there are between 50 and 60 regulatory bodies in Ireland which affect small businesses. I will cite an example of the legislative requirements to be met. Under the Organisation of Working Time Act, companies and businesses are required to record starting, finishing and break times for all employees and retain these records for a period of up to three years. This is a cumbersome and, in most cases, a futile exercise, as in general employees will notify a business if they are not getting their breaks. If anything, employees view this as an imposition and an example of Big Brother at play. When the legislation was being introduced, the trade unions were not exactly in favour of it. However, this is now the law but it tends to undermine the relationship between owner-managers of small companies and their employees which up to now has always been based on trust. It is the view of the association that the requirement to record this data should be scrapped with immediate effect.

To give another example, under the waste packaging regulations, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is reducing the threshold, with an immediate reduction from 25 tonnes to ten from 2009. This will bring a significant number of additional small businesses into this administrative mire. In the view of the association, the newly proposed thresholds have been specifically introduced to boost Repak's finances and will ensure our regulations will be among the most rigid in Europe, leading to a significant competitive disadvantage for smaller businesses, especially those trading across the Border and with the United Kingdom, where the threshold is £2.85 million turnover and 50 tonnes. The current criteria, while not completely satisfactory, should remain in place, with no reduction in tonnage levels. This certainly will create another obstacle for business.

The final example is the late payments regulation which came into effect in August 2002 with great fanfare. Where a purchaser does not pay for goods or services by a relevant date, the regulation provides that the supplier will be entitled to interest on the amount outstanding. The legislation has not worked. The ISME research confirms that it is taking smaller businesses longer to be paid than before the legislation was introduced. A recent survey carried out by ISME confirmed that 32% of members waited longer for payment than 12 months ago, with only 6% being paid faster. The difficulty was that people were allowed to opt-out of the legislation. Big business can impose the late payments legislation on their small business customers and demand to be paid within 30 days or less but when on the other side of the fence, they are opting out and taking 60, 90 or 120 days to pay. What was introduced to help small business in the area of late payments is having the opposite effect.

Another aspect is the application of the regulations of the HACCP. The same standards do not apply to the supplier in food preparation, as to manufacturers and producers in terms of temperature and condition of produce. The manufacturer and producer must police their suppliers with regard to quality because there is no applicable regulation. This is another area in which ISME thinks something should be done.

There has been an increase in regulations in recent years. We are concerned about the increased criminalisation of owner-managers and company directors with regard to health and safety, employment law and corporate issues. Owner-managers are often viewed as being guilty until proved innocent. There is an attitude of "one size fits all" with regard to legislation.

Irish businesses have become completely immersed in paperwork and almost require a direct line to their solicitors just to keep abreast of what is coming down the track. I refer to the Supreme Court case last weekend when the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement was given a slap on the wrist over its reticence or refusal to state the reason a director had been removed from the register. This shows the number of pieces of legislation which mean that owner-managers in business must prove their innocence rather than the other way around. This seems to be the case with much of the legislation in place. There has been a lack of regulatory impact assessments.

Each Department should be instructed to carry out a full assessment of all the legislation within its remit, with reference to the cost burden for business. Decisions could be made on this base assessment on the regulations that could be modified or scrapped. I refer to the standard cost model used in many jurisdictions. That would be the preferred option in this process but it seems to have lost its cachet.

The Business Regulation Forum which sat for approximately a year and a half was coming down on the side of the standard cost model but that forum was scrapped and a high level committee is now looking at business administrative burdens and business regulations. We have moved away from the standard cost model which seemed to be the answer to our problems and have started to look at legislative measures. It appears that all we are doing is moving the chairs on the Titanic.

It is essential that a central co-ordinating body with relevant powers be given the role to carry out this process of achieving a standard cost model, under a single ministry, within a given timeframe. The Minister mandated must also oversee and ensure total co-operation and co-ordination with other Ministers. It is also essential that business interests, both large and small, are involved in this process from the outset. With regard to late payments, ISME recommends the institution of a commercial small claims court to handle all disputes as this would be a help in that area.

The amount of information that is required to do a tender for a local authority is substantial. Each and every local authority has a different type of form to be filled with varying degrees of information. Even within some local authorities, different departments have a variety of pre-qualification questionnaires that are required to be filled and it takes forever to fill in these forms. It is important to remember that these are pre-qualification questionnaires. One could act as sub-contractor for somebody who is contracting in who is going through this process and one could be one of up to five companies asked to pre-qualify. The effort required to fill in pre-qualifying forms is a barrier to some people going after that type of business. I refer to business that may be worth €5,000 or €8,000. The amount of work involved in preparing these documents is phenomenal and is putting many companies off even attempting to participate and gain valuable business.

SMEs perceive the tendering process as being long and complex and in many instances are discouraged from bidding. Those who are new to the public sector market may not know what is involved in the tendering process and may have difficulty in understanding document requirements and in putting together good quality proposals and tenders. In view of this the tendering process needs to be completely reviewed and overhauled in recognition of the length of time it takes to complete a tendering document from an SME perspective. The language used in tenders should be jargon-free and understandable, which is not the case at present. The procedure should be appropriate to the size and complexity of the tender. It is often the case that a similar amount of documentation and information is required for tenders that vary greatly in size and complexity.

An evaluation system, including better feedback to tenderers, should be introduced to assist unsuccessful applicants in bidding for future contracts. Those making the evaluations should be qualified in the relevant contract area and should not just be an individual involved in the purchasing department of the agency requiring the product or service.

Financial information from prospective tenderers, including financial and trade references, should only be requested every three years in order to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort every time a company makes a submission for a new tender. Contracts should be awarded to the economically most advantageous tender, EMAT, instead of the lowest price. Awards to the EMAT would allow SMEs to sell their high technical expertise, which is currently being disregarded. It appears that to make it easy on the purchasing departments in local authorities and Government bodies, they lump many of their contracts into one which makes it difficult for a small business to compete and tender for large contracts because they do not have the necessary knowledge, expertise and goods.

In a culture that purports to support enterprise, it is ironic that the owner-manager on €40,000 a year will take home €750 less than a civil servant or his or her own employees on the same salary. This is due to discrimination against directors and the self-employed who cannot avail of the PAYE tax allowance. This is unacceptable and needs to be rescinded as a matter of priority. Not alone does it unfairly penalise business owners and directors, but it sends out the wrong message that perhaps the owner-manager gets something else and should not be entitled to the same allowances as any other PAYE earner. Directors and owner-managers pay their tax in exactly the same way as employees and even the self-employed pay preliminary tax and tax up front. The advantages the owner-manager had in the past when they paid their tax in arrears is long since gone but there have been no changes in the PAYE allowance to reflect this. It sends out the wrong message, never mind the €750 it costs to be one's own boss.

We suggest that the PAYE tax credit should be replaced with a personal tax credit that would include the existing personal allowance and the PAYE allowance. This would help to stop the discrimination currently experienced by owner-managers. The costs in a full year would equate to approximately €750 million in a full year. This is not small money but its value in helping to change the attitude towards small business would be of help.

We also call for the reintroduction of dividend relief for owner-managers which, prior to its removal in 1992, was the only area within the fiscal code that rewarded entrepreneurs for the risks taken in setting up their own enterprise. Tax incentives need to be introduced to encourage start-up business and to help provide them with a sound financial base in order to survive, particularly in the first five years of the business's existence. We would like to see a reduction in the tax on labour. Employers PRSI should be reduced from a rate of 10.75% to 10%. This cost the Exchequer of €362 million in a full year.

We must ensure that the minimum wage remains outside the tax net. One of the major areas from a cashflow point of view in business is the ceiling for payment of VAT on a cash receipts basis, from the current level of €1 million to €3 million per annum, thereby improving the cashflow of many SMEs.

The current partnership process must adapt to the national and global climate and welcome change and innovation. It is imperative, therefore, that the partnership central review committee is extended to include groupings that are more representative of the population as a whole and, crucially, to allow SMEs equal representation to big business at the negotiating table.

Only by exposing the deliberation process to the creative dynamic of enterprise will fresh thinking be brought to bear on long-standing problems. Full communication and representation by the enterprise sector will not bring confrontation but rather consensus, based on the full facts and not based on the narrow agenda of the big business and big union elite. Small business does not feel it has an independent voice at the partnership table, especially in terms of wage negotiation. Labour can account for up to 48% of the value added in a small business, whereas in a large business, labour accounts for approximately 8%. This is a six-fold difference. One can see how it affects small business six times more than it affects large business, but small business is not represented at the wage negotiation and when big business agree on a 3%, 4%, 5% or 6% increase, it has a six-fold impact when one takes into account the added value in small business. It is quite important, therefore, that small business has a representative at that level.

The key objectives must be the understanding of the small business ethos to devise an agenda that truly will meet entrepreneurs in their world. The greatest encouragement to the development of an entrepreneurial culture will be the placing of the entrepreneur in a respected position in society rather than the previous, and in some cases present, view that entrepreneurship is the last resort for academic disappointment or unemployment. There is a need for a return to the respectability and role of the local successful businessman in local society. They must be seen as job creators and local heroes.

As outlined already, the difficulty with current Government policy is that the multinational, first and only, approach is still very much to the fore, contrary to commitment under the programme for Government. Ireland no longer holds the massive attractions it did for foreign investors, however, and there is evidence of retrenchment by the multinationals. If this policy continues we will be left with a high cost economy which cannot be supported by a weakened non-competitive indigenous sector.

ISME urges the Government to introduce a think small first policy by introducing initiatives and policies to ensure the survival and growth of the Irish indigenous sector. This policy should go hand in hand with and not act as a substitute for efforts to encourage the flow of foreign direct investment into the economy because both sectors have been catalysts for rapid productivity growth.

To introduce these policies, however, it is vital that SMEs, and owner-managers in particular, are at the core of the decision-making process. It is imperative that greater representation is afforded to the owner-managers of small businesses not alone at the partnership process but on State boards, including FÁS, Enterprise Ireland, Science Foundation Ireland and the National Competitiveness Council. At present, there is only token representation afforded to the small business sector despite the fact that many policy decisions specifically impact on these companies. We need not keep reiterating that 98.5% of all business in Ireland is small and medium business.

Due to the importance of small and medium enterprises in the national economic and social fabric, the key objectives for any agenda for change must be to place entrepreneurs and their requirements at the centre of policy making. This is particularly important in light of the slowdown in the economy and the added focus that there should be in promoting and supporting the growth of indigenous enterprise. I use the words "should be" as it is the view of the association that while there has been a shift in emphasis towards acknowledging the role and contribution of the enterprise sector, there is too often a lack of understanding on the part of Government and the State of how enterprise operates and, consequently, huge barriers continue to be placed in front of these businesses in their efforts in the pursuit of wealth generation and job creation which benefits society.

The issues outlined are among the main but not the only areas of concern the association would like to see addressed by the Government. They must promote in a tangible way the interests of competitive SMEs in tandem with the multinationals. Policies that will stimulate the creative business dynamic of the owner-managed entrepreneurial sector of the economy need to be introduced to ensure the existence and success of a vital component of the domestic economy.

It is imperative we continue to promote an enterprise culture by rewarding owner-managers already in business for the considerable risks they have taken and for their job creation. It is essential also that the platform be set to entice individuals to set up their own businesses by providing the necessary incentives to do so.

Belatedly, the role of the entrepreneur is being recognised by politicians, the State and the country at large, but those risk takers need to be recognised and their endeavours valued, in both success and failure. The challenge now is to foster an environment in which more innovation and more new entrepreneurs can be encouraged. It is important we develop and sustain new enterprises in Ireland. The future is in a combined approach to commerce, giving equal prominence to indigenous industry and foreign direct investment and not giving one prominence over the other. An initial step, in which this committee can be instrumental and effective, would be an invitation to ISME, which is the independent voice of small business, to join as an equal partner in the partnership process which we have been denied up to now because of the cosy consensus and the vested interests within the current process.

Before I finish, I will remark on Mr. Greg Swift's mention of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce Ten Steps initiative. We agree that such an initiative needs to be looked at, but why stop at Dublin? The Dublin Chamber of Commerce has its own remit to promote Dublin, but the country does not stop at Newlands Cross. It is the country that needs to be made into a knowledge country, not merely the capital city into a knowledge city.

I thank Mr. Mark Fielding. Mr. Kevin Gallen has provided a paper on e-payments. Mr. Ronnie O'Toole will also contribute. If Mr. Kevin Gallen can summarise his paper, the committee will certainly have many questions. It seems it will be stimulating.

Mr. Kevin Gallen

I thank the Chairman. It is an honour to be before the committee and I am grateful to it for putting time aside to discuss an important competitiveness issue for small businesses.

National Irish Bank has been a part of the Danske Bank group since it acquired both us and our sister bank, Northern Bank, from National Australia Group in March 2005. Danske, for those who will not be aware of it, is the largest bank in Denmark and one of the leading financial institutions in northern Europe. The group is more than twice the size of AIB and Bank of Ireland in asset terms and employs 24,000 people worldwide, including 3,000 in Ireland, North and South.

The link with Danske Bank has transformed National Irish Bank. We now have a new management team, a new range of products and the best technology in the Irish market. Since the takeover, National Irish Bank has re-positioned itself in the Irish market as a challenger bank and a leader in innovation and new thinking. As part of Danske, National Irish Bank has an AA rating which means that we are the highest rated foil service bank in Ireland.

On the matters in hand today, we originally put forward our proposal as a submission to the services strategy group in Forfás, and then to the Department of Finance, and we hope that being before the committee today reflects a desire to stimulate some real progress on this important topic.

Irish small and medium enterprises could greatly improve their efficiency and lower their costs through a move away from a high dependence on cheques and cash and towards the greater use of electronic payments such electronic and on-line banking, direct debits, and debit and credit cards. Electronic payments will get more attention over the next year as tackling Ireland's cost base begins to receive a higher priority, as highlighted by Mr. Fielding. I am especially pleased this committee has taken an interest in this issue and puts it in exactly the right context as a major competitiveness issue for Ireland at present.

Small businesses in Ireland are burdened with a huge level of unnecessary cost and administration, which is diverting them from doing what they do best. Cumulatively, the amount of waste in the paper-based payments system is colossal. Time is critical for SMEs and spending time on the more traditional banking approaches such as writing cheques, regular trips to bank branches, etc., costs Irish SMEs an estimated €554 million per annum.

When we talk about electronic payments, we mean using electronic-based rather than paper-based means of paying for goods and services. For example, instead of waiting for a monthly statement to come through the post, it would be quicker and much cheaper for businesses to log on to their bank whenever they want and have a full up-to-date list of their transactions to read. We mean that instead of shopkeepers paying for security to protect large cash holdings and conduct cash and cheque reconciliations, we should be making greater use of debit and credit cards. Instead of waiting for a cheque to arrive from a customer and paying for higher bank charges to have it processed, small businesses should receive payments as easily as they receive a text message. Given our economic position as an open exporting nation, excessive costs such as these are increasingly untenable. Furthermore, the dependence on a slow, paper-based payment system is an unnecessary additional barrier to the growth of our North-South trade. While other countries have been transforming their payment systems, progress in Ireland has been too slow.

Reforms at EU level pose a real risk that Ireland will be left behind on this issue. For example, a small food company in Denmark will soon be able to operate as if the entire European market is its home base. In contrast, an equivalent firm in Ireland will have to operate two systems, one for paying overseas suppliers and another for paying Irish suppliers. This is a real problem that will, in the long term, cost us exports and jobs. Through the use of e-payments, Ireland can transform the way it does business. What we suggest is that we hold an "e-day", like the euro changeover project, after which the way we make payments in Ireland will be transformed. Mr. O'Toole will expand on how this could be done.

The starkest contrast between the slow rate of progress in terms of our payment system is when one contrasts it with our physical infrastructure. We are currently undertaking a massive upgrade of our transport links, and within a few years we will have a road and rail network suitable for the Ireland of today. However, we are still running a 21st century economy on a payment system that is the equivalent of an old country road. Reforming our payment system will not require a huge capital investment like the national development plan. One could say the motorways of a modern payment system are already built. All that remains is to ensure small businesses that want to use them are able to and that all businesses are aware of their full potential.

This requires us to change some deeply ingrained habits and behaviours. Small businesses are used to using a high volume of cash and cheques, so making the jump we are asking will not be easy. In fact, we hear from some small businesses that they like to use cheques. Often, they are not aware that they can retain the same amount of control on e-payments as they do with cheques.

In National Irish Bank we have a different perspective on this issue, given that we are owned by Danske Bank, a Danish company. Many businessmen and women in Denmark would not know how to write a cheque and would have no desire to go back to a position where this was the dominant form of payment. We see the significant benefits to small businesses in Denmark from the adoption of e-payments and we are confident that once Ireland makes that jump, small businesses will never want to go back.

As a bank, we have shown in recent months what we can do for small businesses when given the opportunity. In November 2007, we announced the abolition of fees for electronic cross-Border transfers between customer accounts in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and last week we announced a major package lowering costs for small businesses. We want to deliver many more such innovations, but the cost of processing cheques and cash in Ireland is tying one hand behind our back.

I take this opportunity to highlight to the committee that wide scale digital banking across Europe through the use of digital signatures is just a few years away. This is another area where Ireland could be left far behind. Digital banking includes not only completing basic banking transactions online, but the purchase of various more complicated banking products, such as mortgages and loans and the completion of the various supporting contracts online through the use of a digital signature.

While theoretically the use of digital signatures is possible in Ireland, in practice it rarely is. Various legislation and regulation requires review to enable effective implementation of digital signatures. This includes, for example, the Consumer Credit Act 1995 and regulations under it as they effectively prevent the making of online consumer credit transactions, which under the Actmust be in writing. We have a specific recommendation regarding this issue for the committee to consider and Mr. O'Toole will deal with that in a few moments.

Mr. O'Toole will now outline how we believe Ireland can transform itself from a laggard to one of the world's leaders in electronic and card payments.

Mr. Ronnie O’Toole

My name is Ronnie O'Toole and I am chief economist with National Irish Bank. I have been with the bank seven months and prior to that I was with Forfás. Therefore, I come from a similar background to members of this committee. I worked closely with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment during my time with Forfás, particularly in the trade area, analysing Ireland's trade performance and the barriers to it. Therefore, when I was asked to look at the payments system in Ireland by National Irish Bank, I came to it from the perspective of competitiveness.

Much support and goodwill already exists within Government in this area. Its report, the information society commission report of 2003, highlighted many of the issues mentioned today and the potential benefit to the economy, which it put at approximately 1% of national income or €1 billion plus. A significant number of organisations are also working quietly in the background, including the national payments implementation body, the Central Bank, the Department of Finance, IPSO and others. In the most recent budget we also noted reform, moving the burden of taxation away from debit and credit cards towards cheques.

It is worth mentioning that many Departments have been doing great work in this area. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been moving farmers on to electronic payments and by the end of 2008, all direct farm payments will be made electronically. For many years the Department of Social and Family Affairs has been doing much work in this area and almost two out of every three of its customers are paid electronically. From a small business perspective, the work of the Revenue Commissioners and the Revenue on line system, ROS, has been one of the successes of e-government here.

These reforms will not only help the public with whom these Departments deal, but the Departments themselves because they will allow them move their human resources away from back office administration work towards more frontline services. Up to now, Ireland has adopted a gradual approach to encouraging e-payments, but the continued high use of cheques and cash shows that this is not working. This makes the success of the Departments that have made progress more remarkable. Further reforms are taking place at European level, which mean the rest of the pack are pulling ahead of us. While in the past we may have been happier to allow a more gradual approach, there should be a greater urgency today.

We are not just here to promote e-payments and give the policy agenda a push in the right direction. The approach taken should be one of revolution rather than evolution and we should move towards an e-day, very much like for the euro changeover, after which we would have implemented a number of reforms. I will go through those reforms, but it is probably more important to point out that the main feature to be noticed about this e-day is the massive public education programme involved. It would not be so much about the reforms. As Mr. Gallen said, the motorways of the e-payment system are already built. All we need to do is give people the confidence and knowledge to use them fully and make the savings. The potential is already there and there is no huge capital infrastructure programme required. The systems are in place and we must just get people to use them.

In our pre-budget submission to the Department of Finance, we suggested a number of measures. I will go quickly through these four measures. First, the Government is a huge consumer of banking products and a significant user of cheques, both inwards and outwards. As part of this e-day, the Government should stop writing cheques. This might not mean stop totally. We may look at particular areas of society, pension cheques for example, where we do not move ahead. However, if the Government decided to do away with cheques in its business, this would create a snowball effect and other large companies would go along with it. As a result we would soon greatly reduce the number of cheques in use. What we have found in Denmark is that cheques are fully available — one can have a cheque book and use cheques if one wants — but 83% of firms choose not to use them. That is the position to which we ideally want to move.

A second suggestion relates to taxis. I prefer to use debit and credit cards than cash. If I were to give a taxi driver my debit card, I would be thrown out of the car. The members of the committee have been to Brussels; therefore, they know how much easier and safer it is for taxi drivers and passengers not to have to carry large quantities of cash. Credit cards can be used in taxis there. As National Irish Bank is a member of the Danske Bank group, I go to Denmark frequently and I am familiar with the similar circumstances there. We ask that all taxi drivers be capable of accepting debit and credit cards, as a reform in itself and as a means of championing the use of such cards. It would serve to show people what technology can do.

My third suggestion is a more general development of the same idea. I propose that we seek to make electronic payments a form of legal tender. When one goes into a crèche or café, for example, such establishments are legally obliged to accept one's cash. Similarly, one should be able to use a debit card when one goes into a doctors' surgery or dental practice, for example. We have all had experiences of this nature. I had to bring cash when I brought my child to the general practitioner last week because I could not be sure that they would accept my debit card. The card was accepted, as it turned out, but I could not have known in advance. While many businesses accept debit and credit cards, one cannot leave one's house without some cash because its use continues to be so pervasive. We should give those who wish to use debit and credit cards the choice to do so. They should be certain that if they go out the door with their debit card and no cash, they will be able to survive fully.

My final suggestion involves the establishment of a working group to consider the regulatory and practical implications of enabling digital banking to be developed more quickly. The Financial Regulator should review the Consumer Credit Act 1995. If these measures were enacted, they would catapult Ireland to the front of the global e-payments pack. We make no apologies for the ambition of this vision. Ireland should have the confidence to commit itself to becoming a world leader in e-payments, which is what we are urging the Government to do. I ask my colleague, Mr. Gallen, to make some final remarks.

Mr. Kevin Gallen

I had never been to Denmark until I started to work for National Irish Bank two years ago. At that time I was struck by the difference between the Danish payments system, about which I learned, and our own. On behalf of National Irish Bank and Danske Bank, I invite the members of the committee to come to Copenhagen to see the payments system in Denmark at first hand. As the principal banker to Danish state functions and departments, Danske Bank would be able to facilitate representatives of the committee in meeting appropriate government and state officials and senior business leaders. National Irish Bank would be delighted if the committee took up the invitation.

A number of members want to ask questions of the various representatives. We have been here since 9.30 a.m. and have had an intense debate on this issue. We can take it that all the members of the joint committee welcome all the representatives to this meeting. Therefore, there is no need for further welcomes. I have welcomed our guests on behalf of the committee. I ask members to act in a good and lawyerly manner when cross-examining representatives and trying to get information. As the delegations from the Dublin City Enterprise Board, the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association and National Irish Bank have invested a great deal of time in this meeting, they would appreciate it if members could get straight to the point by asking questions without lengthy prefaces or superfluous comments. I urge my colleagues to ask questions about the interesting material presented to the committee. As somebody who is not very technologically literate, I am fascinated by some of the papers in question.

The representatives of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association spoke about the increases in energy prices. They have mentioned that in the last five years electricity charges have increased by 70% and gas prices by 146%. The association called for a redistribution of the burden of commercial rates and water charges, even though local rates have increased by just 37% in the same period. I respectfully suggest that the greatest focus of the association's efforts should be on energy costs and competition clauses. How does ISME envisage that the small and medium sized enterprise competition council will work? How can we ensure it does not evolve into another talking shop? Would the representatives of the association like to comment on the potential impact on employees, employers and wage bills of the case being brought by the Irish Hotels Federation? Has ISME done any work on how many of the 110 core forms which it has identified could be eliminated? Could all of the information submitted on such forms be included in one form, ten forms or 20 forms, if it is required in the first instance? What would be the overall cost of ISME's package of taxation proposals? The delegation has acknowledged that the current economic environment is challenging. How does it envisage that its taxation proposals will be funded in that context?

I welcome the proposals made by National Irish Bank which make a great deal of sense. I warn its officials of the dangers of trying to change Irish culture. Farmers are not happy about the move from cheques to electronic payments. I can show my casebooks of recent weeks to the representatives of the bank if they want proof of this. While a massive cultural shift would be required to implement the NIB proposals, there is no reason we should not try to do so.

Some of the Deputy's questions were addressed to Mr. Fielding and Mr. Curran of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association. He asked about the cost of the association's taxation proposals, for example. How could the 110 documents mentioned by the association be streamlined? Would it be possible to draw up a "one size fits all" document? Could the number of documents be reduced to ten or 20?

Mr. Mark Fielding

I thought we were going to get all the questions before we responded.

I can do that. If the other members — Deputies Andrews, Clune, Brady, O'Keeffe and White — are as brief and succinct as Deputy Calleary, we will be able to get back to Mr. Fielding in no time.

I welcome the various delegations. The presentation made by the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association seemed gloomy, particularly as it followed the presentation made by the Dublin City Enterprise Board. The board indicated that one of the problems faced by start-up businesses, as they try to cope with their demands, was a lack of space and facilities. They can solve such problems by listening to an ISME presentation. The presentation was somewhat gloomy and does not tally with the figures. For example, Ireland is in third place in terms of start-up businesses. Those who try to start businesses are welcomed and supported. Mr. Fielding said, "Belatedly, the role of the entrepreneur is being recognised by politicians". That is unfair. Senator White is an entrepreneur and a politician. It is clear that entrepreneurship has been supported and promoted in the last decade. It is unfair and negative to portray it as ISME has done. It is clear that there are challenges. The comments of ISME do not tally with the evidence which shows we are doing well. There is a big demand. We have a high rate of start-up of small businesses. It is important to recognise that things are good. I would not like people to think otherwise. The joint committee has previously received presentations from various groups which were very positive, which is to be welcomed. There are challenges, of course. The committee should make a presentation in support of the inclusion of ISME in the partnership process as an equal partner. That should happen as a priority. The "one size fits all" approach to the tendering process is not right. It should be adjusted depending on the size of the tender. If things were all that bad, so many people would not be trying to start businesses in Ireland.

I found the ISME submission most interesting. It covered a lot. We are very aware that Ireland is an expensive place in which to do business. Mr. Fielding outlined how difficult it is for small businesses in many areas because of the cost of electricity, local authority charges and labour costs and it is appropriate that we acknowledge the difficulty. Like Deputy Andrews I support the view that small and medium sized enterprises should be included in the social partnership talks given that 98.5% of businesses in Ireland are small and medium-sized enterprises. Unions, large businesses and various groups are represented in the partnership but small and medium enterprises are not represented. While that is not a matter for today it is one that we as a committee should support, discuss and recommend as an important step that should be taken. It would give Mr. Fielding and his group an opportunity to present their concerns at the table because we have heard today of the effect decisions taken in partnership have on small and medium enterprises and yet they have no voice.

I thank the NIB delegation for its presentation which was most interesting. It is frightening to realise we are so far behind. As I have not been to Denmark I thank the delegation for its offer to bring a deputation from the committee. E-commerce and e-Government is the way to move forward. We saw a small recognition of that in the budget recently where we are trying to discourage the use of cheques. What would it mean to small and medium enterprises in terms of cost savings? I am sure it would also mean a cost in terms of staffing and administration. Mr. Fielding specifically mentioned that the lack of an e-payment facility is a barrier to cross-Border business, perhaps he would expand?

I thank all the groups for their presentations. Specifically on the NIB presentation, no more than the chairman, I am a technophobe and have some concerns. On security, I understand there would have to be a major educational undertaking before the proposal is introduced. Who would be responsible for backup, not only from the point of view of the consumer but the small business provider? In the event of a power cut who would be responsible for back-up information given that much business is based on keeping records? As we have heard from ISME anything that can be done to reduce the volume of work there is more than welcome. As Deputy Clune said e-commerce is the way we have to go and to maintain our competitiveness not just globally but throughout Europe. That is a proposal that has to be welcomed.

My questions are for ISME and NIB. I suppose the jobs of the future will come from small business and the service industry because we seem to have a problem with manufacturing industry due to high costs. I welcome the initiatives in place. Two issues were raised in regard to costs. Our fuel bills are very high. If we are to be competitive we have to look at nuclear fuel as Britain has done. Towards the end of his period in office Tony Blair proceeded to put a number of nuclear stations in place. France which has low costs in the area of fuel development uses incineration to deal with waste. We cannot live in a world of our own and be isolated from those two types of facilities. If we are to be successful and have low costs we must have those types of facilities. We as politicians have a role to play and cannot dodge issues. Clearly, costs are a huge issue today. Much of our industry is closing or leaving the country because of the high cost of refuse charges and facilities of dumping and every roadside and wood is in disarray.

I welcome all the groups who have come before the committee. Energy is one of the key driving factors for our competitiveness and we should look at renewable energy. It is long term and is sustainable. It is not a finite resource like nuclear powered energy where we have to mine uranium, so I would have to disagree with my colleague. The long-term sustainability for driving forward our competitiveness in Ireland is having enough renewable energy to drive that competitiveness. Coming from a local authority, I think tendering is the most complex, obtuse and difficult process for people to go through. I am not sure if we can develop a "one size fits all" system, but has ISME drawn up a template that might suit?

As the second Mary White in this Chamber who is an entrepreneur, I do not like the view that entrepreneurship is the last resort for academic disappointment or unemployment. We entrepreneurs are driving the economy. Certainly it is a great opportunity to have been elected to the House and to be a member of this committee to speak about such issues. Unless we have that dynamic new thinking in entrepreneurship a little slice of Irish economic life will suffer, so I hope you change that view.

The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service for years and again now has been looking at that whole area. Irish people are slow to change. Deputy Dara Calleary's point is correct; there is a resistance to e-payments and that type of technology. Irish people have a culture of their own; they like a few days' grace. When one writes a cheque, one gets three or four days' grace because of our clearing system. There are a few issues there. This issue should go back to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. What frightened me about the whole thing was the number of people the group employs. The group is more than twice the size of AIB and Bank of Ireland and I understand those banks employ about 30,000 people in Ireland alone. There is an issue here in cost terms. We are told the two most profitable banks have a huge number of staff. I fail to understand how this group is so efficient running a huge business across the world with a lesser number of staff. Obviously there is an efficiency question for Irish banks here as well.

I will not allow the Deputy to stray into that.

I welcome the delegation. As a former chairman of the committee I should say that Mr. Fielding was extremely helpful to us during the past five years when we took on the challenge of the insurance industry which was a far more formidable task than trying to change the mind set of our director general or the National Irish Bank in his suggestions to the committee. The national understanding has been the greatest success in transforming Ireland over the past 20 years. All of those who have been centre stage are to be congratulated. I support the suggestion by Deputy Clune and my leader, Deputy Brady, in regard to participation by ISME in the social partnership. That is to be commended.

Those entrepreneurs who kept Ireland going in the bad old days should get a gold medal, given the interest rates of 18.5% and 19% and 20% that we all had to pay. We are experiencing a marvellous time in our country. It is great to see National Irish Bank come before the committee to put forward its proposal. Its suggestion for a specific day to highlight its proposal is a good idea but we will have to take it in stages because in regard to welfare payments our senior citizens would not have the appetite for it. Certain sections of our community should embrace it because it is more efficient and will save money and it is to be recommended from a security point of view. This committee should accept the invitation extended to it today to see how we can enhance the proposal. Over a period of years perhaps we should have one day each year, for five years, for certain sections that should adopt the proposal immediately and then for the other sections that will take a little longer. I welcome the proposal.

I thank my colleagues. After all that we shall start with Mr. Fielding.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I will answer as many of the questions as I can. Deputy Calleary asked questions about the cost of the package on taxation and how the Exchequer would fund it. The cost is just over €1 billion but it can be phased in. It does not have to be a big bang, so to speak. Without being too flippant, we had no difficulty finding €1.2 billion for benchmarking the first time around and something that will add to the wealth creation of the economy would be an additional help to us. Also, when the wealth tax was reduced from 40% to 20% it created a massive amount of income for the economy in the increased usage of the same. It is possible.

I was asked to comment on the Irish Hotels Federation but I would rather not. Suffice to say there is a minimum wage in place and in addition to that employers in different sectors must deal with joint labour committees, REOs and all that goes with it and it tends to be problematic. I will wait until the powers that be in the Judiciary make a judgment on that.

With regard to the 110 forms, the difficulty is confidentiality. Our Civil Service runs behind that excuse every time we talk about pulling back on the number of forms. Companies must send in their annual returns to the Companies Office and send in almost the same figures to the tax office. There must be a central area to which they can send those returns which would cut down on the number of forms. The amount of duplication is another issue.

I do not want to bore the members to tears but in regard to small business filling in forms, I did a quick check on that yesterday. In respect of the CSO alone, a typical manufacturing firm with ten employees would have to complete, on an annual basis, the following: an earning hours and employment costs survey, a two page document, each quarter; a quarterly industrial inquiry, employee earnings and hours worked, four pages each quarter; a quarterly industrial inquiry, two pages each quarter; a quarterly services inquiry, two pages each quarter; a national employment survey, employment questionnaire, two pages, annually; a national employment survey employment questionnaire, section D, two pages, annually; a national employment survey employee questionnaire, two pages, annually; a census of industrial production, form C, four pages, annually; form L, four pages, annually; form F, four pages, annually; form W, four pages, annually; a monthly production inquiry, two pages each month; a Prodcom form, two pages, annually; and a quarterly accounts inquiry to industry, two pages, quarterly. Each of those forms contain a threat of prosecution, including heavy fines and gaol for non-compliance. Those are the types of form we are talking about and we could go on. We could go into the health and safety--

Is that 50 per employee? I counted 50 in total. Is that 50 per employee that must be completed every year?

Mr. Mark Fielding

No. That is 50 forms but that is just in the CSO area and if we take account of all the other areas the number is phenomenal.

It must be remembered also that there are 128 indictable offences in the Companies Act. We are talking about obstacles to setting up a business. When people ask if they should go sole trader or limited company we tell them about the indictable offences. They ask what that means and we tell them they can go to gaol. That is an obstacle. When we talk about health and safety, owner-managers must prove they were compliant if something happens. They are guilty until proven innocent. It is a major obstacle.

Deputy Andrews said the presentation was quite gloomy. We were asked to come before the committee to talk about obstacles. We cannot be "yippity do" about obstacles to trade.

That is the topic you were asked about.

Mr. Mark Fielding

Only within the past year I was before a group — there was a number of civil servants sitting on the committee — where it was stated that if small business people were successful they were gangsters, if they were a failure they were chancers and every time they got involved, there were gamblers in business. That is the type of mentality facing one when trying to set up a business. Nobody is more up-front and optimistic as owner-managers in their business. Owner-managers are optimistic. They would not be in business otherwise but what we are giving are obstacles to setting up business. I accept that, and yes, we are third in the world.

I do not believe civil servants are saying that.

Mr. Mark Fielding

The civil servant did say that, Chairman.

I am surprised.

Mr. Mark Fielding

I was surprised too but he got an earful, I can tell you. We are trying to highlight for the committee the obstacles that are in place.

With regard to the costs involved in running a business, it is a major obstacle. In the past four years, the cost increases for small and medium business would have been, on average, approximately 10% per annum. Members can see from the figures that the factory gate prices have not increased to that extent. It means that the bottom line for small and medium business is contracting on an annual basis.

With regard to the local charges, the point we are trying to make is that it is only business pay rates. If it were spread across the user pays principle it would be a help to small business in that area.

With regard to energy, renewable and nuclear, there must be a debate on that. We will bring nuclear energy into the country through the interconnector. Do we go down that road? There are many differing views on that and I do not have the expertise to say whether nuclear energy is good, bad or indifferent but there should be more investment in the area of renewable and sustainable energy. The position is similar for incineration of waste. It is important that we grasp that nettle in all of those areas to help in cutting costs.

I thank the members of the committee for agreeing there should be a place for ISME at the national partnership table. I hope that will bear fruit in the near future.

Mr. Kevin Gallen

I will deal with the questions directed towards us. With regard to the question of culture and the challenge posed by the slowness in changing habits that are well-ingrained in terms of our payments, I would agree with that. The banking industry will play a major role in terms of greater information and the provision of wider education in that regard but our proposal is about creating more momentum to allow us move at a faster pace in terms of e-payments generally.

On the question of an estimate of cost savings for SMEs, last week we launched a new special offer to SMEs. We reduced the cost of an overdraft by one third but as part of our research for that offering we estimate that the savings for SMEs that move on and use electronic banking would range from €5,000 to €60,000 or €70,000 per annum, depending on the size of the business. The real savings are the saving in administrative time and the efficiency the business can enjoy. As a result, the business will be able to redeploy some or all of a person's time on other value adding activities. Significant wage cuts can be achieved and we see that with the SMEs which have moved to us.

On Deputy Brady's question regarding the security of e-payments and who is responsible for back up, the banking e-payment system is the responsibility of the banks. The banks have strong contingency arrangements in the event of an issue arising with systems. Obviously the business itself, in terms of its technology and systems, is responsible and should have contingency arrangements in place in the event of a black-out or whatever. However, its information is secure. It is on the bank's system.

Cheques contain a large amount of bank information, for example, one's account number, the bank's sort code and the person's signature. One discloses less information when providing information such as an account number where payments can be made. We are so used to cheques we do not fully appreciate this. The other general point about security relates to reducing the amount of cash in society. We are the biggest cash users in Europe by a significant degree. ATM withdrawals per capita in Ireland amount to €5,800 per annum while in Denmark it is less than a tenth of that figure at €500 per annum. By moving to greater use of electronic payments we can reduce the risk of violent crime, particularly robberies, which are all too common.

I will ask Mr. O'Toole to address the point raised by Senator Cassidy with regard to a staggered e-day, year by year.

Mr. Ronnie O’Toole

Our views are probably more similar than it might have appeared. The statistics show that the vast majority of cheques are used by middle class, middle aged people. One could have a staggered approach whereby certain segments of society, to whom all this is foreign, would not be affected for a long time. In Denmark, much of the elderly population still uses a great deal of cash and cheques. That is fine. Our suggestion is that we can still transform the way payments are made. There can be huge cost savings, without leaving anybody behind. Scandinavian societies are the most socially inclusive in the world and they are also the most forward looking. If they can marry that social inclusiveness with a modern e-banking system, we can crack it too.

Will Mr. Gallen respond to the question about North-South barriers?

Mr. Kevin Gallen

I apologise for overlooking that question. The concern is that the United Kingdom is moving at a faster pace in the modernisation of its payment system. I will use the analogy of the roads. Northern Ireland previously had better roads than this country but we have now caught up with and outpaced it in terms of road infrastructure. However, there is a real risk, on the payments issue, that if Northern Ireland moves faster than Ireland, we will be left behind. That will create issues for businesses on this side of the Border. It is not a barrier at present but it could be and leave us at a competitive disadvantage.

How do we compare with the British in terms of percentages? I understood the British were quite slow in taking up e-banking. What are the percentages for cheque and ATM transactions vis-à-vis Ireland and Europe?

Mr. Kevin Gallen

In Ireland, people write approximately 125 million cheques per year. That has been quite steady although there has been a slow decline in recent years. In the UK, there has been a 50% reduction in cheque usage over the past ten years. The figure has reduced from approximately 2 billion to 1 billion. That is still a large number of cheques but the move away from that form of payment is much faster than in Ireland. With regard to cash, the Irish are the highest cash users in Europe per capita. The UK is the third highest. It is a significant payment method in the UK but, again, the UK is moving faster and it is important that we are conscious of that.

Who is the second biggest cash user?

Mr. Kevin Gallen

The second biggest is Germany.

Mr. Patrick Lynch

The second half of the session has been an illuminating experience for me. For as long as I know her, Denise Brophy has been talking about the costs of doing business in Ireland. Another dimension that emerged when I heard Mark Fielding's contribution is the frustration of doing business. That is borne out by the forms and all the other non-standard approaches. There is an enormous opportunity here for streamlining and for asking whether these statistics are really necessary. Information is expensive to collect. If it is not necessary and is not used properly, it is a waste of time. If this committee is to do anything to help the micro businesses we are interested in and the small and medium businesses that are ISME's concern, it should endeavour to put systems in place that facilitate the conduct of business rather than frustrate it. Everybody would benefit as a result.

I thank the committee for listening to us and giving us the opportunity to air our views.

That is the reason we invited you. The committee members are obviously reflecting what they are hearing about the impediments or obstacles that exist. My wife operates a small rural shop which employs three people. Large towns such as Mullingar have almost wiped out the rural shops but another factor in wiping them out is the number of forms that arrive from the CSO and other bodies. People have enough to do ensuring they pay the right wage, file P35 forms and the like. It is frustrating. I have relations involved in business in England and they seem to be able to get through without any great problems. Nothing like this ever fazes them whereas we seem to face numerous obstacles and hurdles.

I thank our guests for their forbearance and patience. The meeting has lasted almost three hours. I hope you will let people know that although we are not seen on television, we are doing this type of work. Sometimes the media, as you can see, are not prepared to come to meetings such as this and listen to the proceedings. Perhaps you will convey that to your members. Councillor Breen will probably agree that we are generally working on committees. People in politics are aware of that.

It is our intention to hire a consultant — we will probably invite you back again to speak to the committee — to examine how business can be streamlined and obstacles removed, and to examine Civil Service interaction, regulation and so forth. It will be a project. It has not yet been formalised but it will be a red tape or bureaucracy index. That is the project we have in mind. I am not a businessman but I sympathise with small businesses. Having in the past advocated the right of the Irish Cattle Traders and Stock Owners' Association to participate in the partnership process because it represents a significant number of farmers in my constituency and across the country, mine will be a sympathetic voice that ISME should be part of the partnership process, particularly in the context of the various issues raised today. Mr. Gallen reflected something of what the Dublin City Enterprise Board outlined earlier for the joint committee. We will certainly examine Mr. Gallen's invitation. He should formally write to the committee so that we can consider the matter. Several members of this committee are involved in business and have previously discussed this subject, including the vice chairman, Deputy Cyprian Brady. I am probably one who remains to be convinced because, like many people of my generation, I am almost afraid of new technology and technological changes. When one gets used to them, however, they can be as streamlined as some of the things Mr. Mark Fielding spoke about earlier. That issue must be addressed in the short term and cannot be allowed to drag on, otherwise we would lose competitiveness. Upon receipt of correspondence from Mr. Gallen we will consider that issue further. He probably thought we would file away his first letter but we did not. We cannot respond to everybody but we are very focused on business costs, including energy costs. We will investigate energy matters in Sweden in March to see how they operate in that part of the world.

This discussion has been very useful, including many helpful exchanges. I thank everybody for attending the committee. I know most witnesses were in the building from 9.30 a.m. but we had some housekeeping to do, so I thank everyone for their patience. I thank Councillor Breen, Ms Brophy, Mr. Curran, Mr. Phelan, Mr. Gallen, Mr. Lynch, Mr. Mulconry, Mr. O'Toole and Mr. Swift for coming here today and giving their time to discuss those issues with us. Their contributions have been most illuminating, informative and of great assistance to the committee's work. We will undertake a project and no doubt we will summon you again to appear as witnesses to help us in formulating a focused policy that I hope will deal with some of the multitude of issues raised here today. We all know that small businesses may well be the life-blood of this country's economic future.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.23 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 20 February 2008.
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