Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 2008

Annual Report 2007 and Strategy Statement 2006-2008: Discussion with Competition Authority.

I welcome Mr. William Prasifka, chairman, Competition Authority, Mr. John Evans, policy division manager, Mr. Declan Purcell, director of advocacy, and Mr. Ciarán Quigley, secretary, and I thank them for their attendance. Before we begin, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. It is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege but the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. Prasifka to commence. Is it correct that he has a written statement for the committee?

Mr. William Prasifka

Yes. I thank the committee for the invitation to appear. This is my third appearance as chairperson of the Competition Authority but my first since the committee was reconstituted following the establishment of the new Dáil. I am pleased to do anything to assist the work of the committee and I look forward to discussing the authority's work with members. I would like to introduce my colleagues. Mr. Declan Purcell is a member of the authority and its director of advocacy, Mr. Ciarán Quigley is secretary to the authority and Mr. John Evans is manager of the policy division. Ms Noreen Mackey was scheduled to be with us but is not here.

I have circulated my statement, which I will not read. However, I will make a few brief points. We have prepared a study of the grocery sector, which was undertaken at the request of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and it is currently with him. He will present the study to the Government shortly and then it will be published. I understand the committee has a long interest in the sector and I look forward to discussing the sector and the study with the committee but, for obvious reasons, I would prefer to await its publication before answering questions in detail.

The Competition Authority is at a critical juncture in its history. It was established in 1991. I was in Ireland at the time of its establishment. I was one of the first practitioners before the authority as it existed then. The authority is a very different body today from when it was established. There have been reforms and the authority has been examined again and again. In 2002, the authority was given increased powers and resources. We are a very different body from what we were either in 1991 or when I was an ordinary member of the authority for a brief period between 1996 and 1999. As a result of the increased powers, we are seeing solid achievements for the first time in the authority's work. In the past two years, we have secured 18 criminal convictions on indictment starting from a base of zero.

It is important to put these achievements in context. Before successful criminal convictions, many commentators had the view that the enforcement of competition law in Ireland was an entirely futile exercise and there were good reasons for this view at the time. The authority is the only competition body in the European Union that does not have the power to impose fines for breaches of the Competition Act. Faced with serious competition offences, we must seek serious sanctions of substantial fines or incarceration through the criminal process. Files are prepared by us and given to the Director of Public Prosecutions. In the criminal process, there are high standards of proof and challenging procedures. Many people said these challenges could never be met. However, during the past two years we have proven those commentators wrong or, at least, wrong in part.

An important milestone for the Competition Authority was achieved last year in the Central Criminal Court when Mr. Justice McKechnie, during sentencing in the case of DPP v. Manning, made remarks critically important to the Competition Authority. These remarks represent a major milestone not only in the development of the Competition Authority but, more importantly, in competition policy in this State. Mr. Justice McKechnie stated that this type of crime is a crime against a consumer and not simply against one or more individuals and to that extent, it is different from other types of crimes. While society has an interest in preventing, detecting and prosecuting all crimes, those which involve a breach of the Competition Act are particularly pernicious. In effect, every individual who wished to purchase a vehicle for cash from these dealers over a period which I have mentioned was liable to be defrauded and many surely were by the scheme and by practices which this cartel unashamedly operated. These activities have done a shocking disservice to the public at large.

We have made progress. We have convinced the courts that these are serious offences. However, I must inform the committee that much work remains to be done to convince the public at large and the business community that these are serious offences. For us, the way forward is clear, namely, we have to build on our successes and we need to get the message out to the wider public and business community at large that these offences are serious matters and should be dealt with seriously.

I speak publicly as frequently as I can. Whenever I speak in front of an audience I always make one important point, namely, we know we will be making progress when there exists a greater social sanction for participation in a cartel than exists for informing on a cartel. We have made some progress but much work remains to be done. In this context, we look forward to working with our colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment who are currently undertaking a review of competition legislation. We have made a lengthy submission in this regard. It is important we build on our successes and create a competition culture in the State.

I thank Mr. Prasifka for his introductory remarks.

I welcome the delegation. The Competition Authority's Strategy Statement 2006-2008 outlines goals, the first of which is to ensure compliance. Judging by Mr. Prasifka's remarks today and from the submission made earlier, compliance and enforcement of compliance are serious issues for the authority. The second goal is to promote competition where it is absent. In what type of promotional work is the authority engaged? Perhaps if greater work was put into the promotion of competition there would be less need for compliance.

Section 2(10) which deals with roles and functions states that the Competition Authority may investigate an alleged cartel either on foot of a complaint or on its own initiative. Are there any specific trigger factors that lead the authority to investigate an organisation or to initiate an investigation? Does the authority have a rolling series of areas it intends to examine?

I have a number of questions relating to two specific cases, the first of which is the Premier Foods-RHM case. The delegation may be aware of the joint committee's visit earlier this year to areas of Thurles that have not benefited as much as others from the Celtic tiger. I hope the Competition Authority is never decentralised to Thurles as it is not very popular in that region.

Page 11 of the judgment deals with market testing of the proposals. In the evaluation of the proposal to divest the entire Erin brand, the authority has given no consideration to the jobs of Erin employees and the impact on them and the company. Is that because it is not an area the authority thinks or worries about or it does not come under its remit? If it is not under the authority's remit, is it an area to which it should give some consideration? There is significant bitterness among Erin employees about the decision.

I also have a query with regard to the ongoing investigation into the Irish Pharmaceutical Union, but I will understand if Mr. Prasifka cannot comment on the issue. With regard to the timing of its raids and investigation, the Competition Authority has pushed itself into a bitter dispute between the IPU and the HSE. Whether this was by design, the authority has made itself a player in the dispute. Were there any interactions between the authority and the HSE either prior to or during the investigation the authority launched last autumn and which continued until Christmas? What is the current status of the investigation and were there any results from the raid on the IPU? What investigations will the authority make into the HSE side of the issue?

The Competition Authority's submission to the Department on the need for a review of the Competition Act suggests better enforcement, tools and sanctions and the streamlining of mergers. Are the authority's key priorities for the Competition Act extra resources or extra powers? What direction does the authority propose in terms of promoting the ethos of competition?

To clarify, Mr. Prasifka's opening statement will be read into the record and recorded as part of our proceedings.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Deputy for his questions and will try to deal with them in order. The first question asked what we have done to promote competition. The director of our advocacy division, Mr. Declan Purcell, is with me. It is important to understand what the advocacy division does. It has a variety of different functions, but in terms of the public promotion of competition, it examines the areas in which there are restrictions on competition which may, or may not, be appropriate enforcement matters. For example, an important part of the output of the advocacy division has been a review of the entire professional services area, which is a critical part of the economy and a growing part of the wealth the economy produces.

We think it is extremely important that these professions are looked at together, because too often professions look at themselves and convince themselves that particular restrictions or regulations make sense in their own context. Having looked at a number of professions across the sector, we see that some are doing much better than others. Those sectors where there is independent regulation and few barriers to entry have performed much better and offer better services than those with greater restrictions. This is an example of where we have worked hard to promote competition. Other issues arise from time to time that fall outside our enforcement remit, but we comment on them. We always try to promote the interest of the consumer, which is our strong remit.

We see our advocacy division as the important public face of the authority, but complementary to our enforcement work. The enforcement work gives us credibility in areas such as the home heating oil case or the Ford motor dealer case, where we can point to consumer harm. This is the same message we promote with our advocacy function. Advocacy has been and remains an important priority for us and an important part of our message.

The Deputy mentioned our ability to investigate cartels and asked what the trigger factors were that might lead to an investigation. I must emphasise that enforcement matters are intensely factually driven; we need evidence. We need evidence which gives us the basis to start an investigation to compile a file and then ultimately to produce a file for the Director of Public Prosecutions. Everything depends on the evidence that we can obtain. Simple allegations, simple unsubstantiated statements, hints, innuendoes or opinions are simply not sufficient. One of our primary goals in our outreach programme is to inform people about the work we do, of the seriousness of these crimes, and to encourage the public to come forward to us. Any enforcement agency in this area is very much dependent upon the public, on outsiders coming forward to us. It is based entirely on the evidence that comes before us. We cannot wake up one morning and decide: "That looks like an interesting sector. Let's investigate it." Before we would use our formal powers, we would need to have a very strong basis for finding that there are some very serious offences taking place so it is entirely factually driven.

On the issue of Premier Foods and Erin Foods and the Thurles plant, the Deputy referred to page 11 of our decision where we market tested the remedies. By way of explanation, I will take one step back. The Competition Authority is a statutory body. We look at mergers, we do enforcement, we do everything through our own statute and with regard to our remit. In the area of mergers, it is very clear we are there to look at the competition issues that arise, to look at competition concerns. Where competition concerns arise in the context of a merger, where they need to be addressed and there is a need for a remedy, we fashion a remedy as narrowly as possible. We have no desire to put an undue burden on business or to impose any conditions other than those that are indispensable to what we regard as achieving our statutory remit.

In the market testing of the remedies in the Premier Foods and Erin Foods matter, our primary objective — it was the only objective we could have — was to preserve competition in the market, to preserve the viability on the Erin brand following divestment. According to our investigations, the best way to preserve that viability was to have divestment of the entire brand, that it was not viable to divest only a portion of the brand. Having found a buyer for the Erin brands, that buyer was then willing to lease back to Premier the soup portion of the Erin brands, thereby addressing our concern that was in the gravy market, preserving competition in the market for gravies and preserving the viability of the Erin brand without putting any other undue burdens on the parties.

We have no statutory remit to fashion a remedy to protect the jobs in the Thurles plant. It is not part of our statutory remit. We always stay within our statutory remit because, as anyone who has been a regulator in this country knows, that is the only way one can possibly operate here. In that case, we looked at the competition concerns and I believe we addressed them in a responsible manner. Our remedies are consistent with best international practice. We note also that Premier Group and other groups in the food sector have been undergoing a rationalisation programme which even predates their decision to make an acquisition here. Premier will continue to make the soups but, as we understand it, not from the Thurles plant. Batchelor will make the gravies, but, again, not from the Thurles plant.

The Deputy asked about our investigation into the Irish Pharmaceutical Union. By way of a caveat, I wish to state that in terms of ongoing investigations, the Competition Authority does not and cannot comment. I want to make one point clear. What the Deputy said was true in a sense. Perhaps by the coincidence of the timing of our enforcement actions — those actions were not made public by us but by others — it appears that we are a player in this dispute. I assure the Deputy that we are not a player in this dispute. The actions we take regarding any investigation are actions we take entirely on our own on the basis of our judgment and particularly in cases where there may be entities that are effectively publicly stating that they may organise collective action. There is no other source of information required. In this example we do not act at the behest of the HSE. All of our decisions are independent in that regard.

I was asked about our priorities. I may have touched upon that in my opening statement. The promotion of competition, our advocacy function will continue to be a very important public function. It is very important because for me I see advocacy and enforcement as a seamless web. We do not want restrictions on competition by private parties, whether it is a cartel or by professional associations, whether it is a restriction on entry or other barriers to entry. Our message is most powerful when we have both an advocacy function and an enforcement function. Both of them are very strong priorities for us.

I welcome the delegation and thank the chairman for his contribution and summation of his report and strategy statement. I recognise the need for competition to keep cartels at bay. I agree with much of the sentiment Mr. Prasifka expressed about cartels and how they need to be kept in check. I commend the authority for dealing with a number of those cartels as is evidenced by their prosecution through the courts of the heating oil racketeering and the Ford and Citroen car dealers it brought to book. That was courageous. It merited prosecution and the authority pursued it for which I commend it.

Unfortunately, other areas of the authority's work cause me some concern. For example its recommendation that the Minister end the groceries order was very disappointing. A number of people including me felt it would have the opposite effect and unfortunately that appears to have been the case. No one can doubt that the price of groceries has soared and many small grocery stores have suffered as a result of that, which is unfortunate.

Does the authority recognise the unique role of public services, for example public transport? When considered State-wide there is competition across the board in transport. I am from County Louth and there is a top-class private service between Dublin and Dundalk. The difficulty is that the private operator does not need to take any cognisance of the towns and villages it bypasses in what appears to be a very profitable enterprise. The public transport sector must deal with the towns and villages. It is providing a crucial public service to people who do not have private transport, namely, pensioners, low-income families and a range of people including those with medical problems who need to get to the city. Does the authority recognise that uniqueness in terms of the excellent service provided by public transport?

Page 62 of the authority's report advocates ending VHI's exemption from prudential regulation. Does the Competition Authority accept that if that were to happen, older people who have recently entered the VHI system would almost certainly face serious trouble? They would be adversely affected by such a move. The effect of what the Competition Authority is advocating would be to prevent a substantial section of society from accessing private health insurance. While I am no advocate of private health insurance, I appreciate why those who can afford it choose to avoid the mess that is the public health service. Does the advocacy of the Competition Authority involve a social conscience? Is the authority required to have any cognisance of the social sanctions to which we referred earlier? Is it worried about what might happen to those who are likely to be left behind if the proposal made in page 62 of its submission is pursued?

I will comment briefly on two other matters before allowing other members to contribute. I contacted the Competition Authority about insurance loss adjusters a couple of years ago. It seems to me, on the basis of a couple of cases with which I am familiar, that these loss adjusters have the whole thing sown up. They seem to prefer to get involved in certain types of cases, such as domestic and commercial oil spillages. I have strong and compelling evidence to suggest that a massive cartel is operating in this area. When I contacted the authority about the matter, I was told that it does not have a role in this regard. Perhaps I will return to this matter later in this meeting. That was the answer I was given at the time.

I will conclude by reminding the committee that the privatisation of Eircom resulted in a huge infrastructural void in this State. I refer to the provision of broadband services in particular. Does the Competition Authority accept that a reduction in competitiveness resulted from the privatisation of Eircom, for which I do not blame the authority? I suggest that the authority's advocacy in the current ESB case could similarly damage competitiveness in the electricity sector, which would have a broader economic impact on our society and our economy.

The Deputy has asked a number of searching questions.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank Deputy Morgan for his questions. His kind words about the work of the Competition Authority are appreciated by the staff of the cartels division, who are not frequently complimented by public officials. I assure the Deputy that the authority appreciates the unique role of the public service. It has always recognised the important role of the Government in the procurement of public services. The authority has intervened by calling for greater transparency and accountability in the public sector.

I understand the Deputy's concern that some private transport operators do not have the same obligations as public sector operators. They may not have to provide services on the same type of routes, for example. The Deputy suggested that their services may not be subject to the same standards. The authority has long advocated the introduction of a tendering mechanism in the public transport sector, which would ensure that public transport is organised in a transparent manner. In that way, private operators could be held to high standards — perhaps to the same standards as public operators. A tendering mechanism would provide for the ability to set high standards for levels of service, preserve public service obligations and ensure that uneconomical routes in certain areas are retained. Tenders could be offered and subsidies could be made available in an open and transparent manner.

The Competition Authority has always recognised the unique role of the public service. It recognises that many vital public services are better delivered without being paid for at source. Delivery, however, could be achieved in a more transparent manner but there is no argument about the needs in respect of the underlying public service objectives.

Mention was made of our call for an end to the exemption of the VHI from prudential regulation. In this regard, it is important to separate this call from our views on the risk equalisation scheme. The risk equalisation scheme was introduced to preserve the viability of the community rating system to ensure competitors cannot simply enter the market and underwrite risks of a much lower level, thereby creaming off a certain basket of customers. Our recommendation was that the VHI should be subject to the same prudential regulation as the other entrants in the market with a view to preserving competition. Competition will benefit consumers. We were not advocating that there be a change in the risk equalisation scheme, which is to ensure that the VHI, which may have older members, can remain competitive and viable.

The Deputy expressed concern over insurance loss adjusters. I apologise if there was any confusion on the part of the Competition Authority regarding the Deputy's complaint. The Deputy should note that if he has any evidence of a cartel, he should please inform us. I will meet him personally and ensure his concerns are addressed. As I stated before, we are very dependent on people coming forward. It is very important that when they do so, they are treated well and listened to. I will ensure personally that it happens in the case in question.

On the comment on the privatisation of Eircom and poor infrastructure, the roll-out of telecommunications infrastructure raises some complicated issues. It is necessary that the incentives be correct to encourage substantial investment in telecommunications infrastructure. The Deputy is absolutely correct to tie that into competitiveness. If the roll-out of infrastructure is not progressing as we believe it should, perhaps other steps should be taken to encourage investment in that infrastructure. This problem is more within the remit of ComReg than that of the Competition Authority but we have been working very closely with ComReg on telecommunications issues. It is quite active in this area.

On the ESB, our position, which has been very consistent, which long predates my time as the chairperson of the Competition Authority and which will long survive my departure, is that in order for the authority to achieve a competitive electricity market and generate efficiencies to benefit consumers, it is absolutely necessary that ownership of the transmission grid is separated from ESB. The reason for this is simple. The transmission grid involves a national monopoly and it makes no sense to have two transmission grids in the country. However, we know there can be competition in generation. For technical reasons, the minimum efficient scale of entry into the generation market is becoming increasingly low. It is not viable and not possible to expect there to be competition in generation to encourage entry when the ESB is also the owner of the transmission grid.

Suppose we lived in a country in which there was only one set of runways, in the ownership of the one airline. In those circumstances, a new entrant would have to compete on price, quality and frequency, and that is fair enough. However, it would also have to negotiate with its main competitor to obtain access to vital infrastructure. That is simply not good for competition. It is not our objective to damage the ESB; that is the last outcome we would want. There should be a range of viable competitors, with the ESB continuing as one of those into the future. For the reasons I have given, however, we have been consistent in arguing, for several years, that the transmission grid be completely separated from the ESB.

I welcome the delegation from the Competition Authority. Its work has made a greatly positive difference to how business is done in this State. The dispute between pharmacists and the Health Service Executive is a contentious issue. Given the manner in which the HSE has altered pharmacists' contracts, it is inevitable that the latter would react almost universally in a similar manner. This does not mean, however, that they are a cartel or monopoly. Mr. Prasifka's statement includes no mention of the dispute. I acknowledge that it relates to a 2007 report. However, it strikes me as something of a coincidence that since the beginning of the year, as the dispute has escalated, the Competition Authority's involvement with the pharmaceutical industry has become more active. I agree with Deputy Calleary that there is a perception that the authority is riding shotgun for the HSE. That is good for nobody, including the authority itself, the HSE or, most particularly, the pharmacists.

Why is Ireland the only EU member state in which competition law is applied in such a narrow way that sensible negotiations are effectively blocked? I understand there was a recent ruling in regard to discussions and negotiations with health sectors. Why is the Competition Authority so strict in its interpretation of competition law? Has the authority communicated with the HSE on this dispute? Was there contact from the HSE to discuss the issue? Does the authority agree that its current position may be unhelpful and that good sense and fairness should be brought into play? Will the authority agree to take a step back until this dispute is resolved before dealing with the broader issues? Most importantly, what is the basis of the Competition Authority's intervention in interpreting competition law in a manner that is so aggressive towards pharmacists? I understand there are always two sides to every issue and I am interested to hear the delegates' views.

The ESB is an essential element of our infrastructure. I am concerned that its break-up might go beyond the stage indicated as necessary by Mr. Prasifka and that the next step will be the dismantling of the ESB in its entirety. In that eventuality, we may end up with an unreliable and more fragmented service than we have had to date. It has its problems but it has also delivered over the years. I am concerned that it would become more inefficient in the long term.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Deputy for his comments. I agree our annual statement or report does not refer to the pharmaceutical dispute. We are very constrained in what we can say in terms of ongoing investigations. I simply repeat that we are not acting at the direction of the HSE. All of our decisions are taken independently.

So there has been no correspondence between the Competition Authority and the HSE about this dispute?

Mr. William Prasifka

We have contacts with a whole range of people in the sector, as one would expect. For example, when we produced a study on the groceries sector, we talked to the grocery stores, suppliers, wholesalers and distributors. Any time we carry out an investigation, we look at everyone but we look at them independently. We use our statutory powers on the basis of our conclusions.

I acknowledge that there are contractual issues between the pharmacists and the HSE. We do not have anything to say about those. They are contractual matters for the parties to either discuss or work out. The contracts say whatever they say. The obligations under the contracts are simply what they are. We are not involved in that. On the other hand, we have a job to do.

The Deputy mentioned that we seem to have become involved in this quite recently. My colleague, Declan Purcell, carried out a major study of the pharmaceutical sector in 2004. It is a sector in which we have had a long-standing interest. However, some recent events, the subject of an investigation that has been made public not by us but by others, give us cause for concern. They include collective action to withdraw pharmaceutical services, which had been made public. These are the types of things that have caused us to be active.

The Deputy mentioned that we are out of line with Europe. The Competition Authority is a very active member of the European Competition Network. We have been very much in consultation with our European colleagues on these and other issues. We do not consider our actions to be out of step with the rest of Europe. There may be different nuances between countries but the position of undertakings under the Competition Act is very clear and is consistently held throughout Europe. We do not see our actions as being out of step with the rest of Europe. They are consistent with European competition law.

The Deputy asked why would we not just step back from it now and let the parties negotiate. We have no interest in getting involved in a contractual dispute but we are there to ensure that the competition rules are observed. The Deputy is correct in that it is possible for people to independently arrive at the same decision and to act in the same way. That is one end of the spectrum. The other end is a formal agreement in which everybody signs on the dotted line. They agree what they will do and that if someone breaks the rules, there will be sanction. There is then everything in between. There is a substantial body of jurisprudence that some things in between that are concerted practices which fall short of formal agreements can in some circumstances be very serious offences. So we must make a series of factual evaluations, which we carry out in a completely independent fashion. That is the way it has always been and is certainly the way it will be.

In respect of our position on the ESB, the Deputy mentioned the essential nature of the public infrastructure, particularly the transmission grid. I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is because of its essential and critical nature to public service that we advocate it be separated out so we can ensure it is used for the public interest and be seen to be used for the public interest in the most transparent manner possible. If we are to have competition we must have private investment, and large investment is required. To have this we must give investors certainty that the transmission grid will be used in a transparent manner so as not to favour any one player. It is because of this public interest that we make our recommendation. It is to protect the public interest and not undermine it.

Other issues with regard to the dismantling of the ESB may fall outside our remit at present. However, it is quite clear that if there is to be any hope of advancing competition in this sector, an essential first step must be the separation of the transmission grid. If this is not done, we do not see any hope of anything else happening.

I want to clarify that no communication had taken place between the Competition Authority and the HSE with regard to the pharmaceutical dispute.

Mr. William Prasifka

I do not want to mislead the Deputy or anyone else. In conducting an investigation we spoke to a number of people in the sector. This is the way it must be done. However, we do not take directions from them.

The question Deputy Andrews asked is whether any communication from the HSE to the Competition Authority took place prior to the dispute.

What was the trigger for the Competition Authority to get involved in this dispute? While Mr. Prasifka stated the Competition Authority does not want to be a player, in effect it is a player. It has had a major impact on this dispute. Perhaps the sensible thing to do would be to step back from the dispute for a period. Negotiations are ongoing and I believe the IPU will make a submission.

Mr. William Prasifka

In those circumstances where we see the Competition Acts being violated, it becomes for us a serious enforcement matter. The Competition Authority is not a player. I understand people perceive that it is. Perhaps this is inevitable. I would be extremely concerned if this office ever became deterred from its statutory role in the enforcement of competition laws.

We take no direction from the HSE and we would not allow ourselves to work at the direction of one party in a contractual dispute. We understand the contractual sensitivities and the issues which arise. We are not a party to it. If the Competition Authority makes a decision to use its statutory powers it is entirely on its own and not because it wants to favour one party or another in a contractual dispute. This is the furthest thing from our minds.

So there is no communication. The actions of the Competition Authority effectively disabled one party in a commercial dispute from fighting its case. Its offices were raided and it was deprived of a great deal of information. These are the frustrations expressed to us. By targeting this group in the way it did, the Competition Authority became part of the problem. This is why we need to understand whether last October or November, prior to this raid, there was contact with the HSE which may have implications for this investigation.

Mr. William Prasifka

Again, we are getting into a level of detail I had not anticipated. If one examines our enforcement actions, one sees they were triggered by an extremely public withdrawal of services for methadone patients. We did not require the HSE to give us a tip-off. This was everywhere. Concern was raised that this was a collective action taken by undertakings to withhold services and organise a boycott. That raises very serious competition issues. We are not involved in this dispute but in order to take the action that we did, we were not reliant on the HSE. We were not dependent on it. We have many avenues available for our information and where we use our statutory powers, we use them on the very strong basis that there are serious competition concerns. We never talk about it publicly, but in this case others chose to do so. As soon as some letters were issued by us, we saw them in the newspapers. This is simply a fact of life which we accept. However, it was not done at the behest of the HSE. In this particular case, there were very publicly-announced collective actions which gave us cause for concern that there was collective action. I do not see how we could have been a competition authority, with our statutory remit, and not have taken any action at that time.

It was clear that there was going to be collective action given that, collectively, the contracts were altered. It is also clear that the Competition Authority has had contact with the HSE on this issue at some point and at some level. Mr. Prasifka has indicated that ——

Mr. William Prasifka

In the course of conducting an investigation, we have been contacting a large number of parties, as we would have to do. We have been looking at the pharmaceutical sector since 2004.

At what stage, with regard to this particular dispute, was the authority in contact with the HSE?

Mr. William Prasifka

I am not sure how much more I can say on this matter.

Does the HSE regularly contact the Competition Authority to investigate certain areas?

Mr. William Prasifka

No.

In this case, it appears that it did.

Mr. William Prasifka

No. Wait one moment, please. We are in contact with a wide variety of people who are involved in the sector — suppliers, distributors, individual pharmacists and the pharmaceutical union — in order for us to reach our own view about what is going on. We are in contact with a wide variety of people but we do not act at the direction or behest of the HSE. I can tell members that before we exercised any of our formal powers, no one outside our office would have known that.

We shall move on.

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to pose some questions, many of which have been asked by previous contributors. With regard to investigations generally, would the Competition Authority be proactive in trying to find problematic situations or would it react to reports, feedback or soft information it receives? The authority cannot fight a case on the basis of soft information, but would such information spark off an investigation? All organisations have limited resources and I presume the authority cannot always be out there looking for problems. It must deal with the ones that appear on its doorstep first. That is often the way things happen in our job too. That is where these questions are coming from. Was this issue brought to the attention of the authority? I accept it was brought to the door by the media, to some extent, but the question is important nonetheless.

With regard to the delays in achieving a result or a prosecution, what is the average length of time? It would appear that the process is quite slow due to the procedures the authority must go through. Having to go through a criminal or a civil case appears to be a crazy situation and is bound to cause delays. What happens during a delay in the justice system? If the authority is waiting for a long time for an answer, can those involved in the case continue to break competition rules, in the opinion of the authority? Does the authority get to name and shame parties in all cases before a result is arrived at or does the problem continue while we are waiting for justice to be done?

Does Mr. Prasifka believe the authority should have more power and be able to, for example, impose fines or make judgments itself? Would this be better than having to go through the judicial system, which is clogged up as it stands? What amount of time was involved in investigating the 380 mergers and acquisitions or takeovers in general? I understand the authority has sole responsibility for that area.

Mr. Prasifka made reference to 18 convictions. What general punishments were handed down in the past few years? What would the authority generally look for in terms of punishment?

Will the authority look into the acquisition announced last week by the Kerry Group of some of the Reox holdings, the Breeo brands, and so on? I have read that it is interested in this area. Is the authority concerned that consumers such as me might lose out by that or be adversely affected regarding product choice? In situations where there is advance debate in the media about potential acquisition or takeover, as was discussed concerning the problem with the pharmacies, does the authority begin its investigations prior to the announcement of mergers or acquisitions, or does it wait until the event occurs and then step in? When it happens how long does it take to make a decision or get an answer? I accept that there is a report here on an earlier merger.

I have debated the authority's report on the alcohol advisory group with the Minister and put questions to him. I am eager to hear the delegates' opinions. I accept the ideology of the authority, but when it comes to binge drinking, a commonsense approach might be needed. The authority advocates that nothing be done about below cost or below invoice cost selling of alcohol. We all know this type of sale encourages binge drinking. I accept the delegates' evidence that the amount of alcohol consumed has decreased in the recent years, but we are not really dealing with alcohol consumption but alcohol abuse. For a certain percentage of people binge drinking leads to abuse of alcohol. Binge drinking is encouraged when people walk into a superstore and are faced with boxes of beer priced in such a way as to encourage bulk buying. However the report from the authority deals mainly with the overall trend towards decreased drink consumption. That misses the point and is quite an unfair approach. Perhaps we should ban a certain type of advertising or the happy hour but the argument set out in the report leads people in a wrong direction.

That report also proposes an increase in tax. I am disappointed by that because it would hit 100% of those who consume alcohol rather than those who abuse it, again missing the point. In the overall debate on alcohol I fear that many people, not merely the delegates, will get the wrong side of the stick or come out with the wrong answers. There is no research to prove that increasing tax reduces alcohol consumption. Some of the reports from the World Health Organisation show that it makes no difference. I would like to have the delegates' views on that. Having worked in the trade I have a hunch that if the tax on alcohol is increased, it encourages people to drink more less often — binge drinking which causes problems. The drinking is more concentrated and the real issue of alcohol abuse remains unsolved.

I return to the situation concerning the HSE and the pharmacists, purely as an example of a market situation. The HSE is a big player in the pharmaceuticals market in Ireland and is forcing its business partners, the pharmacists, to accept interim contracts though this was subject to High Court injunction last week. What are the delegates' thoughts on this matter? Is this not an abuse of a dominant market position by a big player in that market? Is this something therefore that might interest the authority? I can re-phrase that question without reference to the HSE, to put the general point of view, if that is wished.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the members for their questions. I will answer Deputy English's questions in the order in which he raised them. Regarding our approach to investigations and whether we are proactive or wait for things to be brought to us, obviously there is a mixture of both. If actions are a matter of public record and notice in the newspapers, or are brought to us or that we find out independently, that is one way in which investigations can continue. As I said previously, like every other enforcement authority in the world, we are dependent upon people coming forward. This is the reason we have an immunity programme which we have developed with the Director of Public Prosecutions. Any member of a cartel or bid-rigging regime or any person active in anti-competitive practices who comes forward may, under certain conditions, be granted immunity by the Director of Public Prosecutions. Such programmes are seen as an integral part of the enforcement of competition law and against white-collar crime generally and are a very important tool for us. We try to be publicly proactive and inform people about these programmes to encourage such people to come forward.

The Deputy mentioned time delays with enforcement and there are significant delays. In the home heating oil case, as my colleague could tell the committee, the first successful prosecution was significantly delayed because it was not possible to find a court in the west in which to bring the case. The home heating oil investigation commenced in 2001 and we still have two cases remaining. The delay is simply part of the process, but it is a sensitive matter. It is routine for a defendant to say that because the trial has been delayed, he or she has been prejudiced. At the same time other defendants try to delay the trial. On the question of what the authority can do about this and if we could, for example, name and shame people, the answer is "absolutely not". We do not discuss any of these cases either before or during any investigation or trial. We cannot do anything at all except go through the legal process, to which we devote significant resources.

Many commentators said the authority would never be successful or get any convictions because of the high burdens of proof and the very difficult procedures. However, we have been successful. Throughout Europe we find a greater interest in the imposition of criminal sanctions for competition offences. Many people say that fines will only have a limited impact. To really get people's attention, personal criminal sanctions are necessary; that is the only effective deterrent. If a business is fined, it could simply treat the fine as a cost of doing business. It could say there was a cartel that made a certain amount of money and we then had to pay a fine which was something less than the amount made. It is possible to have a situation where there are no adequate deterrents.

The question is should the authority have more power and be able to directly impose fines. As the Deputy may be aware, this raises something of a legal minefield in this country because there is a view that only the courts should administer justice and be allowed to impose substantial fines. There is another view that certain administrative bodies could have the ability to impose substantial fines. We note that the Financial Regulator has been given such powers. This is a rather fluid area and the Competition Authority is very interested in this debate.

The authority is very committed to trying to get the best results from the current system. This is our focus. The submission we have made to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment explains that we are trying to keep the basic current system. We recognise the advantages of criminal enforcement, which were less apparent before we were successful, and we are looking to fine-tune the system and get some additional powers. One important innovation or change we seek is the ability to give some guidance to the courts as to the setting of fines. Fines are a very important tool but they must be set at a level that deters conduct. If the level is set too low, it is simply a cost of doing business.

The question of what we can do was asked. The fines are imposed by the court. It is the view of some prosecution authorities that we should not even tell the courts what the fine should be and that this is a matter solely for judicial discretion. We would like guidance included in the legislation so that the courts can be informed of what factors to take into account in setting the fine. Such factors would include the duration of the offence, how profitable it was and what steps the defendants took to hide their activity to avoid detection. These elements are critical to take into account in order to set a fine at a sufficient level to deter anti-competitive conduct. If we do not deter such conduct, we are not doing our jobs. Those are the areas where we seek some reform.

The Deputy mentioned mergers. Since the Competition Authority was given primary responsibility for dealing with mergers, we have cleared in the order of 400. The vast majority of those, upwards of 95%, were cleared in phase one. That requires a decision within 30 days of receipt of a completed notification. The Deputy asked if we carry out an investigation in advance of a merger. I want to make it clear that our statutory role kicks in when a notification of a merger is made to us. However, as a matter of routine, we have pre-merger meetings with the parties involved. The parties planning a merger may seek information on the procedure involved and the information we would require, or they make seek other information. We are pleased to provide them with such briefing information in a pre-merger meeting, but our formal powers only kick in when the merger notification is made.

The Deputy mentioned the issue of the Kerry Group. If I understand his point correctly, this involves merger activity that has not yet taken place. Is that correct?

It was announced last week.

Mr. William Prasifka

It was announced but it has not come before us.

Mr. Prasifka has answered the question I raised.

Mr. William Prasifka

We would be pleased to meet the representatives of that group if they were to seek a meeting prior to the notification being made, but once it is made we would deal with it.

I take it that the group will notify the authority of the merger.

Mr. William Prasifka

If it meets the thresholds under the Act, the merger would have to be notified to us.

I will move on to the exciting topic of alcohol. The Competition Authority has quite strong views on this issue for good reasons. We have been told we have a substantial public health problem, with which we do not disagree. We acknowledge that and believe it should be addressed. For it to be dealt with by allowing a private remedy, namely, allowing the drinks industry to make normal price competition illegal, causes us great concern. There seems to be a view in many quarters that alcohol or certain alcohol products are too cheap and that this encourages abuse in the form of binge drinking. If the problem is that the price is too cheap, the way to increase the price is to impose a tax on the product. What has been suggested by the drinks industry, practically from the day the groceries order was abolished, is that rather than increasing the tax, which it vehemently opposes, the price of the product should be increased by making normal price competition illegal. Both mechanisms will increase the price for consumers. Under one mechanism, the additional margin will go to the Government and under the other one, it will go to the industry. Dealing with a public health problem by allowing the industry to make price competition illegal and, therefore, make its activities more profitable sends out exactly the wrong signal. We would be very concerned about that.

The groceries order, in particular, is a matter of great concern to the Competition Authority. It was not a ban on below cost selling, as it was frequently described, but on selling below net invoice price. It was a mechanism whereby the industry could take steps to protect its margin. That is what it did. Look at what the Competition Authority faces in the courts in prosecuting cartels and read Mr. Justice McKechnie's decision, when he sentenced Mr. Denis Manning. The Ford motor dealers were fixing the margin and then they had one person going around checking on the prices and imposing a fine where prices were too low. The groceries order meant that the industry could set a price and then, unfortunately, the Director of Consumer Affairs with an army of people went around checking the prices and initiating prosecutions where the prices were too low. Effectively, the enforcer of a cartel was a public body. That causes us enormous concern.

Before I became chairman of the Competition Authority I was in a different job. The previous chairman decided to leave and someone asked would I apply for the job. I answered: "No, who would want to be the chairman of a competition authority in a country with a groceries order? How can one go to a court with a straight face and say 'Put these people in jail for cartel activity' when the Director of Consumer Affairs is doing the same thing"? The Minister announced the groceries order was to be abolished; the next day I submitted my application.

To clarify one point, my problem with below invoice selling, which happens mainly in the big super stores, is that it encourages people to buy in bulk. That encourages binge drinking in certain persons. That is my major issue with it. I probably accept most of Mr. Prasifka's argument.

Mr. William Prasifka

I accept the good faith argument Deputy English has put forward. I am not an expert in binge drinking but, as the Deputy can understand, we have a particular concern about the reintroduction of a groceries order type measure in this case.

Deputy English also mentioned that he did not accept the fact that an increase in tax would necessarily lead to a decrease in consumption. If one looks at what the Government did in the case of so-called alcopops where there was a significant increase in duty on spirits, according to information from the CSO there was a direct reduction in consumption. I realise that may not go to the binge drinking point, but there is certain price elasticity here in which an increase in taxes can be effective.

I do not want to portray the Competition Authority as an expert on public health policy. We are not. Clearly, that is for others to debate. However, we have concerns about a reintroduction of a groceries order type mechanism, whether in the alcohol sector or in any sector. We would encourage people in looking at this problem to consider that a public health problem requires a public solution, not an invitation for private rent-seeking profiteering.

Senator Ryan asked for our general thoughts about the HSE. As the Senator will understand, it is not for me to reach conclusions before the committee about individual cases. Clearly, there is no problem with a public health authority acting to organise the public health service. If there were concerns about particular actions and abuses, we would welcome people to come forward and talk to us. We do not have any issue with the establishment of a public health service and the establishment of the HSE to run it.

Mr. Prasifka referred to fines and delays in a case, which could take seven or eight years in the courts. During that time, people could continue to be ripped off by a car dealer, for example, and they would have no way of getting their money back. That is my fear about delayed justice. He also said the authority is trying to find ways to deter bad conduct. Most people agree the best deterrent regarding any crime is immediate justice. Seven or eight years is far from immediate justice. It is a problem across the board but bodies such as the authority should have access to immediate justice. This probably requires a debate but it is a major concern.

Mr. William Prasifka

The Deputy's point is well taken. Effective deterrents revolve around the severity of the sanction, the likelihood it will be imposed and timeliness. We have had success in enforcement but I cannot tell the committee we have a credible enforcement regime. We have a long way to go but we are much closer to that goal than two years ago before any convictions were secured. I can fully understand someone saying the home heating oil case has taken too long and he or she will move to a different system. I understand the utility of those statements. We are trying to achieve as many results as we can from the system we have.

I thank Mr. Prasifka and his team for their contributions. I refer to a number of areas in which I have an interest. The authority advised the property services regulatory authority regarding a code of conduct for estate agents and auctioneers. Will Mr. Prasifka update the committee on this issue? Are there plans to extend the code to cover, for example, property management companies? Many issues have been raised regarding the management of apartment complexes and so on in my constituency.

I refer to solicitors and the legal profession and Mr. Purcell's article. How stands the proposal for an independent regulator? A number of high profile cases are ongoing but I will not comment on them. Sometimes there is a flurry of activity regarding specific areas over the course of a year but there is no follow up on these issues publicly. Perhaps Mr. Prasifka will update the committee on those two issues.

Mr. William Prasifka

I will turn these questions over to my colleague, Mr. Declan Purcell, who works on these issues.

Mr. Declan Purcell

The property services regulatory authority is not fully up and running and we were approached by the interim chief executive to offer comments on a draft code of conduct in that area, which we were quite happy to do. Other than that, we have not had much involvement, if any. I cannot recall the detail. If the Deputy would like us to raise particular issues, we would be more than happy to do so.

I presume the authority will revert when the regulator is in place. The regulation of management companies has resulted in many issues.

Mr. Declan Purcell

The National Consumer Agency and Ann Fitzgerald, in particular, have taken a keen interest in that area. We always try, wearing an advocacy hat, to ascertain whether there are public restrictions on competition between undertakings. We always trying to find whether something in the regulatory field is holding people back from competing. That is the lens through which we normally look. These issues have not been drawn to our attention, particularly where competition is concerned. However, if anyone wishes to do so, as our chairman said, he or she is more than welcome.

We published a report on competition issues in the legal profession in December 2006. We made almost 30 recommendations in that report to various parties including, the Government, the Bar Council, the Law Society of Ireland and others. The key recommendation relates to the establishment of independent oversight of the legal profession. In other words, a legal services commission.

We have yet to receive Government reaction to this recommendation. It must be remembered that under the Competition Act we have no power to enforce any recommendation put forward in the reports. We rely on the power of argument and persuasion in this regard. We remain hopeful that an independent regulator for the legal profession will be established. Self-regulation of this profession has not and is not capable of working given the conflicts of interest involved. Members will appreciate I cannot comment on individual cases. What has happened in recent years proves self-regulation does not work in this profession.

I thank Mr. Prasifka for attending today's meeting which has been interesting so far in terms of the issues covered. I would like to comment on a few general issues and on one specific issue in respect of the professions as referred to by Deputy Brady. Mr. Prasifka referred in his opening statement to the professions and in this regard used words such as "cartels", "price-fixing" and "barriers to entry". I agree with him it is important all these obstacles are overcome. I understand from where he is coming in respect of consumers.

I am concerned about standards within the professions. There are cowboys and rogue traders in every profession. However, I would not like there to be a race to the bottom from which the consumer would ultimately suffer. Perhaps Mr. Prasifka will comment on how a balance can be achieved in this regard in terms of consumer services. The grocery trade was also mentioned. I am concerned we may reach a point where there could be too many large players in the grocery trade. Is this an issue for the Competition Authority? I am a frequent shopper and as such I am conscious of the level of own-brand products available in supermarkets. I accept that as a small nation we are subject to outside influences. Is the Competition Authority concerned the presence of one or two large players in the market will result in consumers having little choice in terms of brands or products within supermarkets?

There is a great deal of concern in Cork in respect of the merger of Scottish and Newcastle's subsidiary, Beamish and Crawford, by Heineken. Is this an issue for the Competition Authority, the EU or the UK? I accept Mr. Prasifka's comment that unemployment will be the main issue locally and that it is not part of the Competition Authority's statutory remit to protect jobs. However, will this be a matter for the authority in terms of the merger reducing to two the number of players in the drinks industry?

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank Deputy Clune for her questions. On the professions, we are concerned about standards. As Mr. Purcell stated, critical to the authority is the issue of independent regulation not only in respect of dealing with complaints as they arise but in terms of setting standards for professional conduct. It is important the rules are set down by independent bodies. It is important to have input from the profession, because it has the technical expertise, but it is also important to have a consumer perspective. Independent regulation can play an important role. We hope the professions will ultimately realise this is in their best interest, because this will build public confidence that matters will be dealt with appropriately. As the Competition Authority, we are concerned about price, but also about quality. Independent regulation has an important role in terms of ensuring both goals can be achieved.

Does the authority see this working in terms of all professions? What about the legal profession?

Mr. William Prasifka

For the vast number of professions we have looked at, including optometrists, engineers, dentists and so on, independent regulation is best international practice. We see a compelling case to enforce that practice across the board for a number of different professions.

We have closely examined the grocery sector and I am sure the Deputy will be interested in our report when it is released. The report examines in detail the issues mentioned by the Deputy, the structure of the industry, the number of players, how the vertical relationships are organised and the wholesale and supply chain relationships. This is an area we have looked at in great detail and have examined it from the consumer perspective in terms of the issues that drive competition and the role of branded and own-label goods. We have seen the growth of more own-label products in Ireland, but the issue is not quite where it is in the UK. We are looking at a series of issues and these are discussed in the report. I would like to defer detailed discussion of the issue with the Deputy.

When is the report due?

Mr. William Prasifka

We expect it to be published early in April. The Deputy may not have been here for my opening remarks, but we have completed a report on the grocery sector. The report has been given to the Minister who must present it to Government before it is published. We anticipate this will be done in April and I will be delighted to come back to the committee to discuss the report in detail.

I also asked about Beamish and Crawford.

Mr. William Prasifka

That transaction was notified to the European Union under the European merger regime, because it is a significant transaction. Under the European merger regime, there is a provision whereby a national competition authority can request a portion of an acquisition to be given back where it believes significant national competition concerns have been raised. We have done that in this case. I understand this is the first time we have ever requested a referral, but only of the Irish part of the transaction. It is up to the Commission to decide and I expect the decision is not too far off.

It is due at the end of this month.

Mr. William Prasifka

It is possible that the Irish portion of the deal, which deals with the Irish assets, could come before the Competition Authority.

I welcome the delegation and thank it for an informative presentation. I do not wish to return to discussion on the health area, but I am concerned there may be other information the delegation feels would be helpful to the committee. This committee deals with the issues of trade and employment and we would like to ensure that the Competition Authority's involvement will help trade and employment.

The authority mentioned the ESB. Bord na Móna also had a monopoly. Bord na Móna and Coillte Teoranta between them own almost all the bogs in Ireland and have the monopoly on peat production.

The Competition Authority's court case with the Irish League of Credit Unions was mentioned in the 2007 report. The members of the delegation do not seem to be happy punters with regard to the decision of the Supreme Court to overturn the decision of the High Court. They seem to be saying that in the future the authority will ensure is it more detailed in its legal submissions. While the courts have made their decisions I am a little surprised that the authority is putting more emphasis on the future and how it will deal in the future with credit unions which are the people's bank. The credit union movement is the bank which the ordinary Joe Soaps of the country built up and which has provided employment and built houses all over the country for the people of Ireland.

Like other speakers I welcome the delegation from the Competition Authority. The interaction has been very informative and interesting. I note with interest the chairman's opening statement on the issues. I look forward to the publication of the recent study on the grocery sector. I note the point made by the chairman regarding below-cost selling that this may not necessarily have been the issue but this is the public perception and equally the public perception was that with the abolition of the groceries order, groceries would be cheaper. It would be interesting to see the results of the authority's study.

The chairman, Mr. Prasifka, referred to the public in his comments with regard to the transmission grid and the ESB. I ask for clarification on a certain issue. A number of communities who deserve to be rewarded because of the input of volunteers in creating a community spirit and helping to improve the community at various festive times throughout the year are now being informed they cannot set up street lighting and Christmas trees because they would impinge on competition and the transmission grid. This is what the local authorities are telling those who are often referred to as the "do-gooders" in society when they come up with projects. I would welcome clarity in that regard.

I note with interest that Mr. Prasifka referred to the professions and to the legal profession. The Chairman may have an interest in this area. I have the height of regard for the legal profession and, by and large, the legal profession at every level has served the country well. As my colleagues have said, just because of the ills and sins of one or two, I hope we will not come along with a sledge-hammer. There are many other good professions.

I refer to an industry which is mushrooming and about which I have a concern, namely, counselling. There are probably some good people working in counselling. However, because of the level of interaction and intimacy involved in what is deemed a profession, it is easy to hit the easy targets. I would appreciate if the authority could indicate what investigation it has carried out into the area of counselling which is quite a wide-ranging remit. There seems to be a counselling group being set up in every community and confidential and intimate advice is being given.

In order to help me formulate my question on the raids and the investigation into the pharmacy sector, what section of the Competition Act was being invoked by the authority? I will go on without the knowledge. I believe it was said that the Competition Authority is interested in competition issues and ensuring there is nobody holding people back from competing. I understand the pharmacy scheme is voluntary. There is no market there and there is no competition issue. Why, therefore, did the Competition Authority get involved in something in which there is no competition? Everybody in this room, including representatives of the Competition Authority, is aware that there seems to be a number of coincidences over which certain people in the marketplace have a concern. Earlier Deputy Chris Andrews alluded to the question of why such an action was taken by the Competition Authority at a time when other things were happening regarding contractual issues. Mr. Prasifka has indicated that obligations under the contracts are matters for the contractual parties and would not be a matter for the authority.

I presume the Competition Authority welcomes that people in the marketplace use their muscle to get 14 to the dozen or 18 to the dozen and if they join forces with another party to improve their buying position to get better deals, that is also in order.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank Senator Callely and Deputy Fitzpatrick for their questions. I will take Deputy Fitzpatrick's questions first. He asked about the ILCU case. The Supreme Court represents the supreme law of the land and, as a statutory body, the Competition Authority obviously accepts what it has determined. The particular factual circumstances were quite narrow. The Supreme Court found that in the market for the savings protection scheme there was no separate product for credit union representation services. It is rather a narrow holding and one which is not directly relevant to our other actions in the sense of being a direct precedent. Obviously we lost a case that was very important to us. We have had to re-evaluate how we prepare cases totally in terms of our legal approach and our economic approach. We are doing that.

However, the particular precedent and holding here do not have significant ramifications for our ongoing work. It does not point us in different directions. It does not suggest that we should stop certain investigations. It is a very important case. We have treated it with the utmost respect. We have learned from it and we will aim to do better in the future. However, just to put it in context, it is not one we see having any impact on ongoing investigations.

Regarding Senator Callely's comments, there were a number of things that were simply not on our radar screen. The issue of street lighting is not one that has come to our attention. However, it will not be the first or the last time that someone has not done something and people have said that the Competition Authority is responsible — although I do not think they are speaking loudly because it has not come across our radar screen.

Regarding counselling, when considering professions it is important to make one distinction. What typically is a profession? From a legal point of view, a profession in many cases can be seen as one in which it is illegal to practise that profession unless the person has qualified or been certified. Obvious examples are doctors, lawyers, etc. Many people do much valuable work that could be highly skilled in which there is no professional qualification. The issue of legally requiring a person to have a professional qualification should not be taken lightly, as it can have an important consumer benefit. If consumers do not have information about whether people are qualified, there is a danger that they may avail of the services of unqualified personnel. On the other hand, if one goes down that route there is equally a danger that barriers to entry will be put in place. That might happen if qualifications are set too high or numerical restrictions are introduced, for example. In its professional work, the Competition Authority has focused — not exclusively — on those areas of professions in which legal restrictions are imposed. There are no restrictions in some professions, such as optometrists, and the market is working quite well. That is a long-winded way of explaining that the counselling profession, in which there is no legal requirement, has not come to the attention of the authority.

I have heard of people who have been charged unusually high counselling fees. I am sure Mr. Prasifka has read reports of such cases. Has the Competition Authority investigated any aspect of that?

Mr. William Prasifka

We do not comment on ongoing investigations. I encourage those who have particular concerns to bring them to the attention of the authority. Deputy Callely mentioned that he finds it difficult to understand the basis, in terms of competition, for the authority's intervention in the pharmacy market. It has already been made clear that the Competition Authority has no problem with the provision of a Government service for which there is no payment at the level of the consumer. There is no competition issue in that regard. The authority has no difficulty with the Government scheme for distributing medicine to medical card holders. That is not the issue. The Deputy is right to say that there is no competition, in effect, at consumer level because the products are simply given away. There is certainly no competition on price. The authority is looking at the upstream market in the context of the relationship between pharmacists and the HSE, which involves a commercial transaction. To use an analogy, the Government builds roads, which the public then uses for free.

Some roads are tolled.

Mr. William Prasifka

The road in front of my house is free, so far at least. All sorts of Government services are provided for free, in the sense that they are not paid for at the point of consumption. While there is nothing particularly wrong with that, sometimes one has to look at the upstream market, where competition issues can arise. That is what the Competition Authority is doing.

I hoped Mr. Prasifka could mention the relevant section of the Act to help me to formulate my questions in this regard. He said that the withdrawal of a number of pharmacists from the methadone programme prompted the Competition Authority to investigate the pharmacy market and to raid certain pharmacies. That is what drew the authority's attention to the need to investigate the market. On what basis was that done? Under what section of the Act was it done? As the scheme is voluntary, competition issues do not arise. I understand that the authority raided pharmacy shops, but did it also raid the offices of the HSE? It is not about the wider scheme — it is about what prompted the authority to undertake this investigation.

Mr. William Prasifka

I misunderstood the Senator's initial question. Section 30 sets out the powers used by the authority to obtain information about breaches of section 4. The fact that a particular service is voluntary at the point of consumption does not mean that a commercial transaction is not taking place within the upstream market. If a cartel was studying the prices at which all roads are built, the authority could examine the matter, even though it would relate to a product that is given away, in effect. We used our powers to ensure that no breaches of section 4 were taking place.

I do not want to delay the meeting. Perhaps the Competition Authority will write to me to supply greater detail about this matter. A number of Members of the Oireachtas who have attended parliamentary party meetings and meetings on the health service are interested in the fact that the Competition Authority summoned and raided a number of pharmacies at a time when there were discussions on the more considerable issue of reimbursement. The authority was saying that contractual issues were basically matters for the parties subject to the contract, that obligations should be honoured in that regard and that the investigation of the pharmacy sector was prompted because the withdrawal of the methadone programme was a public issue. It is now stating that, because of this, it proceeded to consider upstream issues. Do I interpret Mr. Prasifka correctly?

Mr. William Prasifka

To be very clear, there were upstream issues that were part and parcel of the withdrawal of methadone services. This relates to the larger issue of the renegotiation of the contracts between the HSE and pharmacists. We were concerned about collective behaviour by various undertakings. That was a matter of public knowledge. Many people made no effort to hide the potential for collective action. This is the kind of situation that any competition authority in any country in the world would have to treat as a matter of grave concern.

On 19 December 2007, I asked in the Dáil whether it was divine intervention that prompted the Competition Authority to raid the offices of the Irish Pharmaceutical Union. Who prompted it and who asked the authority to become involved? Why would the authority want to interfere in the market when, as Mr. Prasifka stated, the potential for price competition is limited? Those with GMS cards are given their requirements for free while those who do not have GMS cards pay only the first €90 of what they require. The only price fixer, therefore, is the Government, which is negotiating on behalf of the people. I refer to the benefit allowed under section 4(5). I understand section 4 very well. Lest there be any misunderstanding, I must state I am a barrister, as I stated at the beginning of the meeting.

Mr. Prasifka said he had no problem with the Government schemes or services. If so, why was there an investigation? This issue is becoming more baffling. It beggars belief that the Competition Authority stated it had no contact with the HSE on the matter and did not raid its offices although it raided other offices.

I want to raise an important point. Local pharmacies provide free advice on health issues. The staff talk to one about health and advise thereon. They help the elderly and may even bring prescription medicine to an elderly person who has no mode of transport. I am from a very rural area in which not everybody has public transport.

Deputy Morgan and I have drawn attention to the right to negotiate. To declare an interest, I am a member of the Labour Party and a lawyer. I state this so Mr. Prasifka will know where I am coming from in this regard. The media can print my declaration if they wish.

Is the Competition Authority's activity not an attack on the right to collective representation and negotiation? What is the position in this regard? Did Irish Equity, whose members are self-employed, not want a similar provision to the one to which I refer? Where will this end? Will any trade union be safe from the authority's prying eyes? Was the Irish Pharmaceutical Union not negotiating freely on behalf of its membership which paid a fee to the union? There was to be a great benefit to consumers? Is Mr. Prasifka suggesting that people with medical cards did not benefit from this? There is no question that they did.

I am surprised that these matters come within the purview of section 4 of the Competition Act. I recall the debate on this legislation. The courts often refer to the Official Report as an external mechanism. This may facilitate a schematic or teleological approach to the interpretation of legislation. I have grave doubts that anybody ever envisaged that the Competition Act might be used in this way. The delegates have their job to do and so do we. We too are advocates and it is we who pass legislation. I am convinced it was never envisaged that the Act should prevent negotiations with representative bodies whose members supply services on behalf of the Government to citizens of this State. I may well be wrong but that is my view.

An issue has come to my attention in recent days. I understand the Competition Authority has concerns about section 149 of the Consumer Credit Act 1995 which requires financial institutions to apply to the Financial Regulator for permission before increasing charges imposed on customers. This is surely an extremely important provision for consumers. The National Consumer Agency has indicated its desire that it not be amended. Is it the case that the Competition Authority wants to see this provision deleted? If so, does it consider the provision to be restrictive of competition in banking? It seems a positive requirement that the Financial Regulator must give its view on the imposition of any charge to the consumer. If I have misinterpreted the authority's position, I am sure the delegates will correct me. They are the professionals and experts in this area. However, I am sure I read this in recent days.

I did not come from a legal background but I ended up becoming a barrister. Do the delegates agree that, in the past 20 years, the restriction on entry to the Bar seems to have been significantly loosened given that the number of barristers has quadrupled in that period from approximately 600 to more than 2,400? The Bar Council has been open and accommodating in dealing with several issues brought to its attention by the Competition Authority in recent times and has put in place several of the changes proposed.

Can there be a situation where what the Competition Authority considers right for the consumer may not benefit society at large? In other words, is there any danger that by being totally focused on competition and what is best for the consumer, we may damage indigenous businesses? One might conclude that the businesses capable of offering most competition are those from outside the State and we may end up with nothing in this jurisdiction. What is the delegates' view in this regard?

There must be an overview of the broader needs of society. I acknowledge that the authority is working according to the provisions of the Competition Act and that it has done some superb and diligent work. What worries me, however, is the broader perception of these issues. This is not meant as an attack on the delegates. Members of this committee have travelled to different parts of the State in the course of our work. One of the questions today was based on our experience in Thurles, for example. We see areas that could become unemployment blackspots if something is shifted out of there because it is perceived that there is insufficient competition or that a monopoly or a dominant position exists — not even a concerted practice. Is there a danger in that regard? Could that happen if we were to take this to its logical conclusion? I thank Mr. Prasifka for allowing me to ask him these questions.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Chairman for his great interest in our work. In respect of the pharmacists issue, our primary concern is about their concerted action to potential collective practice. The Chairman raised the spectre of the right to negotiate and the role of trade unions and, in that context, the decision note of the Competition Authority relating to Irish Equity. It is very important to keep in mind a few very different distinctions here.

The Irish Equity case dealt with individuals who were deemed on a factual analysis to be undertakings and independent contractors. The decision there was consistent with principles of European law. What is not and has never been at issue are the rights of trade unions to negotiate collectively on behalf of employees. The distinction relates to what are effectively trade associations and whether they can organise themselves and, therefore, take collective action on behalf of undertakings. If one goes down that road, what then happens to the Competition Act?

Look at the cases that we have brought, such as the Irish Ford Dealers Association or even car dealers in general. Would there be a suggestion that they could form a trade association and, therefore, as a union, be exempt from the competition rules? That is not the state of the law as it is now. It is clear under Irish domestic law and European competition law that businesses cannot collectively negotiate prices in the way we expect trade unions to do on behalf of their employees. It is very important to keep that particular distinction in mind. We have never and will never take issue with trade unions representing employees. However, in terms of undertakings, this raises very different types of interests.

In respect of the Competition Authority's position on the Consumer Credit Act, I believe that is a reference to our banking study, which would have been published in 2004. As I understand it, a series of recommendations were made in order to improve competition in the market. That particular report found that there was insufficient competition. One of the recommendations was that we should facilitate switching between banking products to encourage competition. We found that there was insufficient competition and, therefore, made a number of recommendations, many of which have been implemented. One now sees institutions urging people to switch their accounts and mortgages in their advertisements.

We made a number of recommendations to encourage competition. As was explained to me by my colleague, on foot of more vibrant competition, one would expect a relaxation of price controls. One cannot separate those recommendations. As my colleague has just informed me, only after we had seen those reforms pushed through and seen more competition in the market could we see an end to price controls.

In respect of looking at the legal profession, I accept entirely the Chairman's point that there has been increased entry into the barrister profession. I also accept his point, as we have acknowledged, that the Bar Council has moved considerably to accept a number of our reforms. I acknowledge that and its good faith in many of things it has done. However, significant restrictions remain on advertising and the way barristers can organise themselves. Direct access to barristers is also restricted. I acknowledge they have made a great deal of progress. However, we believe they should go a considerable additional distance. Ultimately, the only way we will have reform of the legal profession is by having it regulated by an independent body which is not dominated by the profession itself. This is particularly the case for lawyers, who perform such a vital role in our society. This has remained our position and will always be so.

The question was asked whether a danger exists that we have too much focus on competition and other issues cannot be examined. Certainly, having met with the committee, I see little danger of having too much focus on competition issues. I tried to make the point in my opening statement that in terms of the use of competition law and enforcement, we are at an embryonic stage. We have only begun to enforce competition law.

We have not discussed private enforcement and we have no private enforcement of the competition laws in this country. We do not live in a country in which the Competition Acts are over-enforced. If anything, we are only beginning to look at the potential we have for using competition legislation to reform and promote competition and enhance the position for consumers. When I consider where we are today, I do not see a country or a Competition Authority running rampant with too much influence. Our influence is probably not nearly enough.

I appreciate I am stretching the Chairman's patience but I wish to ask a brief question. In light of ongoing negotiations and the fact that there is a perception that the Competition Authority is riding shotgun for the HSE, is Mr. Prasifka ruling out absolutely any stepping back by the Competition Authority to allow the negotiations to get on in a manner which is respectful to both sides?

With regard to the groceries order, Mr. Prasifka's views on it are clear as he stated he did not apply for the job while it existed. If the groceries order was reintroduced or even an aspect of it——

If it was reintroduced with regard to the drinks industry, would Mr. Prasifka review his position?

Mr. William Prasifka

I review my position on a daily basis, and particularly before I entered this room. I will review it again after I leave the room.

On a serious point, I hope I explained as clearly as I could the grave reservations I have about the reintroduction of the groceries order in any way, shape or form. I understand the serious concerns about alcohol in this country. I welcome people seriously examining it and taking substantial measures. However, I also encourage them to examine this particular measure and what its effect would be, particularly on the trade. Is this the time to send the message to the industry that we are concerned it is not profitable enough? This is my concern.

With regard to the pharmacists, as the Deputy understands, we are independent in our functions and independent of the Government and the Minister. I cannot give an undertaking that we have no intention of enforcing the Competition Act in this area. We have no interest in upsetting any ability by the Government and the pharmacists to reach a resolution here. We note with some interest that the Minister has set up a particular mechanism to deal with this dispute by establishing a three-person panel to take a look at how the system can be reorganised.

There was a suggestion that we only recently discovered this area but the Deputy should understand that in 2006 we initiated a consultation, dealing with the application of the Competition Act to collective negotiations in the medical area. We put forward a number of proposals as a way of getting out of the impasse, such as a messenger model or a pair model. We ran a consultation, which was open to the public. We received a number of submissions from stakeholders which were not, frankly, the most enlightening. We then issued, in January 2007, a guidance note on collective negotiations in the medical area. The world has moved on and we may now have to re-examine the area. We are anxious that a solution be found but we are also committed, if we see collective action and concerted practices, particularly in the public arena, to taking action.

Will the authority take a step back?

Does the Competition Authority accept that competition law is undermining trade union rights in terms of collective negotiation and collective bargaining? Trade unions with members in this State, who work on a self-employed basis, now face the prospect of being subject to competition law and, consequently, liable to prosecution for price fixing if they try to negotiate for minimum rates and conditions. I am interested in Mr. Prasifka's view on this matter. I have heard the authority's attitude described as "wooden" and some have maintained that it is very harsh on this issue. Does the authority accept with regard to individuals — such as members of the actors union, to whom Deputy Penrose referred — who are members of trade unions that it is stretching things to a point of elasticity that is beyond any intention ever envisaged by the law?

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Deputy for his interest. We have examined and re-examined this issue closely. The Competition Act is not in place or intended, nor is it the authority's desire, to undermine trade unions in any way.

That is its effect.

Mr. William Prasifka

No. If I can just finish, please. The issue that was presented in the Irish Equity case was one which dealt with the particular status of those individuals. It was an intensely factual inquiry which examined their PAYE status, how they were working and for whom they were working. It is a decision, published in August of 2004, which was a completely accurate statement of the law as it existed and exists today. It is also, in a very important context, irrelevant. That decision is firmly grounded in European law. The particular arrangement which was brought to our attention was in force in Ireland and Northern Ireland. Therefore, it had a European dimension. The Irish Competition Authority had no power and it would be of no effect for it to sanction something which would run foul of European law. That is simply the case.

We have no desire to undermine employees who are represented by trade unions or, indeed, to have anything to do with that. However, in situations where one has undertakings who are effectively forming trade associations——

They are individuals.

Mr. William Prasifka

So too are solicitors and publicans, for example. Most of the professional sector is organised in that manner. That is the problem we face and we must look at this on a case by case basis. The mere fact that they are individuals does not end the argument. If it did, one would run a truck through the competition.

In its review of the legislation will the authority advocate any change in that regard?

Mr. William Prasifka

We have made our submission to the Department in terms of the review of legislation and I do not believe we made any such suggestion.

I thank the delegates for their interaction. I have an interest in the pharmaceutical sector and I seek clarity on this issue. I wish to be specific and in return I ask for a specific reply.

The authority said that what attracted it to investigate the pharmaceutical supply chain was the public attention given to withdrawal of the methadone programme. As I understand it, the programme is a voluntary scheme. We have been told that the Competition Authority is involved with competition issues to ensure fair competition in the market place. Where is the competition in a voluntary scheme? The authority has no problem with Government schemes as such.

Under what part of Section 4 did the authority take action? I would like to have some indication of how the authority worked. Mr. Prasifka mentioned earlier, concerning other issues, that when the authority takes action such action is extended to all the players. Did the authority raid the offices of the HSE, as it did the pharmacies?

Mr. William Prasifka

I would like to be as clear as I possibly can be in this matter. The Senator will understand, as all members will, that we do not generally talk about investigations and enforcement matters. As I tried to indicate, what came to our attention was the possibility of collective action to withdraw from the methadone scheme. That action was part of a much wider issue. The issue there was not simply the dispensing of methadone but matters concerning the wider context of the negotiations as they existed at the time. It is impossible to separate the methadone scheme from the entire course of dealings between the pharmacists and the HSE on those issues.

As to which part of section 4 we were looking at, it was obviously those sections dealing with potential agreements between undertakings or concerted practices between undertakings. In section 4 (1), there is a substantial amount of case law, particularly at European level which illuminated for us what is actually meant. On the one hand there can be an iron-clad agreement between parties to withdraw services or to fix prices. On the other hand, there can be people who individually decide to do the same thing, and then there is everything in between. We have to undertake a factual analysis but that was the part of Section 4 we used. There are different sections we invoke to give us powers to conduct the searches.

What about the raid on HSE offices?

Mr. William Prasifka

We cannot comment on actions we take pursuant to an investigation.

This has been a good, fruitful morning with an excellent interchange. The Competition Authority members can be sure the committee found their attendance here constructive. I thank the delegates in particular for being so engaging and so direct regarding the areas on which members focused and have particular interests. I thank Mr. Prasifka, Mr. Evans, Mr. Purcell and Mr. Quigley for coming here and discussing these issues fully. Their contribution has been helpful and informative and will aid us to focus upon this area in the future. We may request the delegates' presence again. Perhaps the authority could explain how it takes action, what precipitates that action and the steps that it takes thereafter. For example, could it take a hypothetical sector Y and explain the process through to its conclusion including all the intervening steps? It is important that the committee is aware of how the process works in the context of the review of the Competition Act 2002 which will come before the committee shortly.

We enact mock courts as part of our training and something similar might be worthwhile for the committee in this area. We could see how the process works from inception to conclusion. The committee is aware it is not possible to take a case that is extant and is subject to investigation. Perhaps there is a case that has been concluded and that we might be able to examine to see the steps involved in bringing a case to court and what is invoked in each step of the process. It could be a way of showing how the theory behind an Act is brought into practice, the independence of the authority and the interaction between the Act, the authority, consumers and the public. We might embark upon this project. I thank the delegation from the Competition Authority for being very patient and answering our questions fully. There was a significant interest from the committee in proceedings today.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Chairman and the committee for their courtesy and interest.

I wish everyone present a happy Easter, including members of the media covering the proceedings. I hope the break is enjoyed by all and we take the opportunity to refresh our batteries. Cáisc shona daoibh go léir.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.47 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 April 2008.
Top
Share