JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Wednesday, 14 May 2008

Developments in Dublin City Centre: Discussion with Dublin City Business Association.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady)

We are now in public session to consider presentations by the Dublin City Business Association on current developments in Dublin city centre. I welcome Mr. Tom Coffey, chief executive; Mr. Basil Good, chairperson, who is also owner and chairperson of Isaacs Group involved in restaurants hotels and property development; Mr. Conor Keoghan from the officer board, and also owner and director of Brown Thomas car park; and Mr. Michael Ryder, company secretary and chairperson of Eason booksellers. I thank the witnesses for their attendance today.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. Good to commence the presentation.

Mr. Basil Good

My colleagues and I are pleased to have an opportunity to address the joint committee. I will outline the role of the Dublin City Business Association. The DCBA represents retailers, property owners and transport companies in the business heart of Dublin. Our members employ in excess of 25,000 people and, as such, the organisation represents a significant part of the commercial life of the city.

Dublin city centre has developed significantly in recent years and looks better than ever with the redevelopment of O'Connell Street, establishment of the boardwalk and introduction of the Luas system, bus corridors and 22 car parks. It is a vibrant and dynamic European city with a unique bustling atmosphere and cosmopolitan character. The city centre has 4,000 shops, as well as ten department stores and shopping centres. The retail turnover is in the region of €4.2 billion per annum and the city centre enjoys an annual footfall in excess of 260 million. To put this figure in context, Dublin Airport has an annual footfall capacity of 23 million. Collectively, the members of the Dublin City Business Association contribute 75% of the rates collected by Dublin City Council.

Dublin City Business Association and Dublin City Council have formed a very successful partnership in marketing and developed many strategies, details of which have been circulated to members by our marketing people. Members will be aware, for example, of the successful Make the City Yours advertising campaign on radio and television. We have also produced a well-received Dublin city centre map which is, without question, the most widely used visitor map.

In the past 20 years footfall in Dublin city centre has increased by more than 300%. Our footfall figures for recent years are available to members. The DCBA is the only organisation which produces accurate footfall figures. Other figures which have appeared in the news media recently are inaccurate. Figures for this year, to date, show the footfall is slightly higher than for the same period last year. Mr. Larry Houston of the Atlantic Group in Philadelphia has said Dublin has pedestrian streets "Americans would die for." As all of us will be aware, one does not see the vibrancy of the capital's streets in many other cities around Europe or the world.

The business improvement district scheme, BIDS, is a new initiative started by the DCBA. I am pleased to note Dublin city centre became Ireland's first business improvement district on 1 January this year. I congratulate the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, Deputy Cyprian Brady, and the former Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dick Roche, on introducing the legislation which made possible this development. When businesses were asked to vote on whether to proceed with a business improvement district, 77.26% voted "Yes" and only 22.74% voted "No". The additional services the business improvement district will deliver include street landscaping, litter and graffiti removal and the introduction of street ambassadors. We have examined closely how the business improvement district model has worked abroad with the intention of bringing the best aspects of the approach to Dublin. I believe the Dublin model will be copied by many other cities and towns in Ireland. We look forward to Dublin being cleaner, greener and more competitive as a result of the business improvement district scheme.

The DCBA appointed a new CEO on 3 March. Our office has been established in O'Connell Bridge House and work on the project is ongoing. Members will learn more in the media in the coming weeks.

Our members continue to have great confidence in the city, as demonstrated by recent investment in the city centre, as well as future investment projects which are still on the drawing board. More than €600 million has been invested in the north-east inner city recently. While some of this amount was invested by Dublin City Council, the vast bulk of the investment was made by DCBA members. It is planned to invest more than €3 billion in the Henry Street-O'Connell Street area in the next five years. Members will be aware of the plans for the Carlton site for which a planning application has recently been lodged and the Arnotts site. The proposals for the latter site are still in the planning process. These plans constitute a major vote of confidence in the city's future by our members. Many more developments are afoot; for example, there are plans to develop the former site of The Irish Times on D’Olier Street.

The DCBA has a number of concerns. The Government must focus on the city centre as the engine of growth, particularly given that the Dublin city centre business district economy is responsible for 3% of GDP. The city centre is also of great symbolic importance for the country. If our city centre dies, the repercussions will be felt over a wide area, not only in Dublin. A thriving city is vital and we want the city to develop further. We hope more people will move to live in our cities and a higher standard of apartments will be built. Brown sites should be used for development. Members of the DCBA have travelled to other cities to observe how they have developed with a view to copying best practice. Not long ago a delegation visited Philadelphia to observe how a post-industrial, relatively run down city had developed into a vibrant economic unit in which a large number of people live in the downtown area and cultural life is thriving.

Access to the city centre is the life blood of the capital. From a transport perspective, we welcome the increase in the number of quality bus corridors and light rail services, both of which are proven and effective means of bringing people into the city. We support Transport 21, including metro north and the Luas. We ask, however, that the bodies carrying out the associated works do so in a manner that does not disrupt the life of the city. We request that time, thought and money be given to addressing our concerns. As I indicated, the city centre area produces 3% of the country's GDP. We cannot afford to damage the vibrant life of our city centre. The image we send abroad to attract tourists is very important.

The number of shoppers entering the city by car has been highlighted in the media recently, with speculation that cars will be banned from the city centre. Shoppers travelling to the city by car must not be obstructed from entering the city centre until a comprehensive transport system has been established. Unfortunately, we believe this objective will not be realised for many years. Shoppers travelling to the city by car contribute significantly to economic life. Each year there are 30 million visits to the city centre compared to 11 million by Luas. We have done considerable research on the spend of shoppers and found that shoppers travelling by Luas account for 12% of expenditure, whereas those travelling by car account for 88%. We really want to make the point that shoppers' cars are vitally important. Commuter traffic is different because commuters have to make their way into the city, as that is their place of work. Shoppers come in by choice and if we do not make access easy they will choose to go elsewhere. We cannot afford to lose the shoppers' cars into the city. The Government must ensure that Departments' decisions do not harm the economy of the central business district.

We welcome the new communities. Members are aware that Dublin has become a cosmopolitan city with many ethnic groups. They are part of the commercial life of the city and many of them choose to live within the city. We want to treat them as equal citizens and to look after their needs.

The Dublin City Business Association is calling for a "Yes" vote on the Lisbon treaty. We see the European Union and our links with it as vital to the economic life of the country. A vote for the Lisbon treaty is a vote for business. We support the Government in its call for a "Yes" vote. The DCBA has a passion and a pride in our city. We look forward to trading and living in it for many years to come. We trust the committee will do all within its powers to make sure that Dublin continues to be better and more prosperous as time goes on.

Vice Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Good. As Vice Chairman of the committee I congratulate the association on its efforts. A great deal of work went into the introduction of the business improvement district, BID, scheme in Dublin city. As Mr. Good indicated, it is the first one in the country. It will be used as a model in other areas and cities around the country. I have seen the system in operation, most recently in Washington, where BIDS have been introduced in separate districts of the city and are proving hugely successful. The schemes focus on everything from street furniture to litter bins and include having individuals stand outside metro stations, train stations and bus stations to provide advice and directions. That system seems to work extremely well. Cleaning, security and policing are all included in the legislation covering the operation of BIDs. The work that has already been done in Dublin city centre will be enhanced by the BID scheme.

Mr. Good referred to the significant investment that has been made — and will be made — in Dublin city centre. We have an opportunity to ensure proper planning and procedures are put in place to monitor and manage that development, including transport. I noticed recently that Dublin City Council has sought a variation to the draft plan in respect of Marlborough Street Bridge. The intention is that the bridge will be used for traffic and will not be just a pedestrian bridge, which will facilitate the council's plans for the introduction of the metro and Luas lines across the city. The association has proven to be successful over many years and has demonstrated its commitment to the enhancement and improvement of Dublin city centre.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I endorse the Vice Chairman's remarks about the DCBA. Judging from the material we received and from what was said in the presentation, the DCBA is generally positive and upbeat about the city centre. I endorse its remarks about the importance of the city centre and I will return to them later. The BIDS initiative is really exciting. I know something about it from a previous existence and I am delighted it has progressed so well in Dublin. Will Mr. Good provide a quick overview in terms of the funding of the BID and the accountability of the board? Is the board elected? It seems to be made up of some of the usual suspects. Will the composition of the board change in the future? Will there be a democratic input from those paying the piper? What are the plans in respect of introducing the BID to the wider community? It is important that the wider community is conscious of the role the business community is playing in the running of the BID.

Mr. Good referred briefly to the idea of encouraging people to live in cities and towns. Will he elaborate on that? I am a great believer in the "living over the shop scheme" that has been restricted, and the introduction of communities back into city centres. It is very difficult to do that, given the traffic and the lack of car spaces. Does Mr. Good have any plans in that regard?

I noticed at Christmas that the DCBA introduced wonderful new lights with messages such as "Nollaig shona" agus rudaí mar sin. However, there is no mention of Irish in the public relations material supplied by the DCBA. Is it the case, as I suspect, that the DCBA got a grant, put up the lights and left it at that? Given the importance of the city centre and that it is our showcase for the majority of visitors who come to Ireland, would the DCBA not consider the promotion of the Irish language to businesses and their staff so that they would be in a position to promote it not just to visitors but to Irish people? In that way we could have Christmas all year around. I congratulate the DCBA. The BID process will engage people, re-energise local government and people's commitment to their communities. Well done to the DCBA on being the first ones to run with it.

Mr. Basil Good

The initial seed funding came primarily from members of the association itself and the city council also contributed to it. Since the legislation was passed by the Dáil and the BID is up and running, all BIDs money comes from a levy on the rates that is equivalent to a 5% levy. All of the money contributed to the BIDs comes from the traders who pay rates within the city. We have approximately 4,000 rate payers in the city centre area that we cover. I will not define the boundary, but it is the north and south central business district and it includes areas such as Temple Bar. By and large it is the heart of the city. Funding comes completely from within the BID scheme's own membership. We do not seek any Government funding.

As this was a new concept, the initial board stayed in position and will do so until the end of the first year. There will be an open process. We are quite aware that the process needs to transparent. I will not go into all the detail but the legislation clearly sets out that it is not a case of jobs for the boys. I am chairman of the BID. None of the board members receives any remuneration whatsoever. We are there because we want to see BID succeed. I have seen what BIDs do in many cities in North America — Philadelphia, Washington, Toronto and many others. I want to see the best of that come to Dublin and I believe it can. We may well be voted out. I would be happy to be voted out if somebody else takes on the BID. I think all the board members would say likewise if, in turn, people who are genuinely interested step up to the plate. It is a transparent process that is outlined in the legislation.

Living within the city is one of the things we were really taken with in many of the cities we have seen that have been rejuvenated, especially in the United States but also in Europe. We want Dublin to become home again for middle income as well as upper income people, whereas the inner city has become largely associated with the poorer section of society and new ethnic communities. This does not suggest the existence of a balanced city centre. If there is cleanliness and safety, and if living conditions are good, there is no reason people of all incomes will not come to live in the city, where there are cultural activities all around, a transport system that serves them well, and coffee shops, restaurants and shops within walking distance. Our vision for Dublin is that it will become a living heart and not just a commuter centre for industry.

Mr. Tom Coffey

On Christmas lights, each street has its own bank account and the exercise is voluntary. It is a bit like running for election in that one must talk to everybody. It is like trying to get a vote but, instead of a vote, one needs a cheque. The process is not easy.

Over the years, certain streets have failed to put up Christmas lights because not enough money was available and the lights could not be ordered. There are always problems and it is not a black and white situation. Each street is different. We became concerned three or four years ago about the declining standard of Christmas lights in the city. We cannot force anybody to erect them but we must encourage people to do so. We wanted Dublin, as a European capital, to be visually identifiable as a truly Gaelic city and not just any place. Therefore, we wanted to raise the standard of Christmas lights, encourage retailers to pay more and be more organised. At the same time, we wanted them to start erecting lights with text as Gaeilge. A number of our members are very active in this regard.

In the past two years, we have increased the standard of lighting substantially. The lights are no longer coming from countries where health and safety might be an issue as they are now purchased from Blachere in France, which is the biggest lighting company in Europe. The currency used is the euro and, therefore, there is no extra cost as a result of having to use multiple currencies. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, believed our ideas were good and told us our initiative was one of the most successful in which he has been involved over the years. We look forward to more developments in this regard.

I would like to see more branding of streets in Irish by way of signage. Owing to there having been so much building in the city in recent years, and to the demolition of old buildings, signs are now missing. If one goes to Paris, one will note all the signs on the corners of buildings are blue and white and they allow one to know exactly where one is. In Dublin one does not know. I have been living in Dublin for 40 years and constantly find I cannot find places because there are no street signs. I hope the BIDS will lead to a branding exercise like those in the States and that some of the resulting street signs will be in Irish.

Vice Chairman

I certainly look forward to the Christmas season.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I compliment the Dublin City Business Association, which has put considerable effort into advocating the BIDs. Tom Coffey has been tireless in his promotion of the scheme and has done great work, on which I compliment him. Before it was popular, he had a vision for Dublin, on which he and the DCBA have tried to deliver.

Reference was made to Temple Bar. Is it part of the BIDs?

Mr. Basil Good

No.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Can an area on the border of the existing BID opt in whenever it wants?

Mr. Basil Good

Not within the life of the BID. There would have to be an additional vote.

Deputy Chris Andrews

What is the life of the BID?

Mr. Basil Good

Five years.

Deputy Chris Andrews

What are the implications for the 23% that did not support the BIDS? Must they pay? The ambassadors are to be in place in June. When will businesses start paying?

The Vice Chairman alluded to the need for proper consultation with the RPA and Dublin City Council. When the Luas was being constructed, the RPA did not communicate with the public and businesses in Dublin South-East. It will be hell for businesses and residents in the city unless there is a serious effort to communicate their message. It is a question of listening to and acting upon the concerns of businesses. The Luas episode was very difficult for many of them. What will be the implications of the big dig? It will obviously have an impact because the city will not be an attractive place for quite a while. What is the timescale for recovery after the work is complete? What needs to be done to ensure the city will recover as quickly as possible after the big dig? I thank the delegates for their work and commitment.

Mr. Basil Good

Since my colleague Mr. Michael Ryder has a store on O'Connell Street, Eason, I will ask him to talk about the big dig. I will speak about the BIDS. The BIDS charges are levied as rates and collected by Dublin City Council. The levy is a proportion of one's rate of evaluation and it is compulsory to pay it. The scheme started from 1 January, at which time all stages were approved by the city council, and prior to that by the Dáil.

Deputy Chris Andrews

As of last January, businesses were levied.

Mr. Basil Good

As of this January.

We have been involved with Christmas lights for many years. On every street — Grafton Street is but one example — a certain percentage of premises contribute and others do not. This is a real bugbear for those who do contribute as they end up carrying the can for the free riders. Within a BID, everyone must pay and it works on the basis that a little paid by many people will amount to a reasonable sum.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Given that people have been paying from 1 January, it is very important that street cleaning, landscaping, marketing and hospitality measures be implemented as soon as possible.

Mr. Basil Good

Yes. Given that we are starting from zero and had no staff or organisation as such, we are running as quickly as we can to catch up. We have an office and CEO and have appointed ambassadors who we are about to put on the streets to be responsible for cleaning. By the middle of this year, the members will be aware of the BID and we will be doing a media launch.

Mr. Michael Ryder

What we have learned as retailers from the Luas experience — reference was made to Dublin South-East — was that there was a lack of co-ordinated planning for traffic management before construction to cover the duration of the construction period. There was no marketing budget to promote continued access to and from the city centre for shoppers, be they pedestrians, motorists or public transport users. I regret a previous Administration did not take on our submission on how this was done in another EU market. We must learn because Transport 21 is larger than any other previous project undertaken in the city. While I accept official thinking is coming around to the idea, it is essential Dublin City Council manages traffic management planning for the preparation and construction of the Transport 21 projects in Dublin city centre. No project should commence without having the required marketing budget to promote and maintain accessibility for visitors, shoppers and tourists into and out of Dublin city centre. This is essential. We saw the impact of hoarding being erected along O'Connell Street during previous restoration works. People need to be able to see in the city and should not have their vision channelled by hoardings.

The utility companies which must provide for prior diversions and works during the contract periods must be made responsible to one Department to ensure the timing of the works is integrated. They cannot frustrate the main contractor in carrying out works. With the Luas construction, I saw works stopped in order that the water services section of Dublin City Council could fix a major leak. The DCBA argues for the integration of the utility companies as part of the main contract.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The committee should support the association's views and make it known to Dublin City Council and the RPA.

Vice Chairman

I will pass that message on to the Chairman.

Mr. Michael Ryder

The marketing budget was overlooked in the Luas project. With Dublin City Council, we have committed to promoting the city centre. There is now a perception about the city centre with the Luas in place. Any future works must have a major marketing budget, say €1 million a year, for the duration of each of the contracts to promote accessibility.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I welcome the delegation from the association and thank it for its presentation. The original presentation suggested a retail turnover of €4.2 billion but in the written submission a figure of €2.4 billion is stated. Will the association clarify which is the correct figure?

Will the association comment on the geographical definition of the city centre? The association is up-beat that its footfall survey is accurate. How is it compiled? How will the street ambassadors scheme operate? The association has an interest in shoppers' cars being able to access the city centre. Would there be any downside for the national economy if that did not continue? Would there be a shift to retail units in outlying areas? How significant is car parking revenue for the overall economy of the city centre?

Mr. Tom Coffey

Perception is reality and it depends on what audience one is talking to about the city centre. The central core comprises Dublin 1 and 2. When we compile our tourist map, if we aim it at an audience for the wider city centre, we include the Guinness brewery, the Liberties, Temple Bar and the Docklands. This definition of the city centre is wider. When it comes to traffic maps, we would be talking about a radius from the M50 into the centre.

Our members are not just based n Dublin city centre, as some are in Cork, Galway and Belfast. Regarding turnover, the Dublin city centre depicted on the Google map has a turnover of 3% to 4% of GDP —€2.4 billion is the figure for the central core. For the wider area, taking in Liffey Valley and Swords, the figure is €4.2 billion. The turnover for Dublin as a region is over €7 billion. It depends on the audience to which we are presenting the figures. We would rather have a conservative figure rather than an exaggerated one.

Senator Brendan Ryan

I got the impression the numbers were different. In the written submission one number is given, while in the oral presentation another has been given.

Mr. Tom Coffey

The figure of €2.4 billion refers to the city centre, what we call the core area, Dublin 1 and 2.

Mr. Conor Keoghan

There are 22 car parks in Dublin city for shoppers' cars which accommodate 10,000 parking spaces. Up to 30,000 cars per day come into the city, which makes it approximately 30 million shoppers a year. International research and our own back this up.

A car shopper will spend approximately €70 per visit, while a shopper who comes in on the Luas will only spend €25 per visit. The Luas customer is bringing in €200 million to the city every year, while car shoppers bring in €2.1 billion. On a pure economic spend, those with cars spend vast amounts of money. Their trips would be occasional such as when they come in to buy a new suit or television. They comprise visitors from the suburbs, the rest of the country and even abroad. The car shopper is important to the economy of the city and businesses truly depend on them. International research shows that even in cities with good public transport systems, the car shopper is key. We come back to the same argument, that when people go shopping, for many reasons they will use the car. Car shopping is a vital instrument and economic activity for the city.

In terms of revenue to the State, car parks in the city centre contribute approximately €11 million a year to the Exchequer through VAT receipts. To counter that with suburban shopping centres, where car parking is generally free, means there are no VAT receipts for the Exchequer. If car parking in the city is affected this will have knock-on implications for Exchequer revenue, which will be down €11 million a year. That figure grows as our rates go up. In terms of pure revenue for the Exchequer, there would be an effect if car parking did not work as an economic engine in the city. Then there would be a knock-on effect on the businesses.

Mr. Basil Good

Will Senator Ryan please repeat his question as regards ambassadors?

Senator Brendan Ryan

Just generally, how is it working?

Mr. Basil Good

The first seven ambassadors are now in employment with the BID company, and there will be more in time. At the moment, they are daytime ambassadors. There will, in time, be nighttime ambassadors as well because we see Dublin as both a daytime and a nighttime economy, both aspects of which are vitally important. The ambassadors will be on the streets to serve a number of purposes. They will be there to monitor cleanliness, broken street furniture, to act as tourist guides and to keep links with traders on the streets. They will be there, not as policemen and policewomen, but to support gardaí, in having a direct link, where they see and monitor crime on a daily basis. We see them as a vital part of keeping a record of what is happening in the city centre, so that when things are out of order, they are fixed. We will be sending e-mails daily to Dublin City Council as regards cleanliness, items that need to be repaired and so on. We will also be giving the council timelines. If a street light is broken, for instance, and we have monitored that over three months, we shall be asking what is happening.

Senator Brendan Ryan

Will they be anonymous, or in uniform and very visible?

Mr. Basil Good

They will be highly visible. They will be in a uniform that will be highly identifiable and we want them to be visible.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I am very enthusiastic about the BID. I first saw it working in Georgetown in the United States, which the witnesses may be familiar with. It is fabulous and they market it very well. It is even on the Georgetown bins. People wonder what it is and when they hear it is something that business is paying for they like it even more, since they are not paying for it themselves. I really hope it is going to work very well. If it works out, I would be very enthusiastic about it being replicated in other areas. Cork is working on its BID already, and I would like to see it happening even on a much smaller scale in, say, Blanchardstown and places such as that. That is not a matter for the Dublin City Business Association, however, which is the flagship in ensuring that it works.

I have read the DCBA's position paper on the metro. It endorses Transport 21 while at the same time mentioning the Metro do Porto concept. I suppose metro north is going ahead anyway, but would the DCBA not have preferred to see a Metro do Porto concept with light rail on-street all over the place and not just this one project? Would the association not have opted for an interconnector first as a priority project over metro north, because this could link everything up in a way that the metro does not? I have seen some of the association's documentation as regards Bordeaux and how it has accommodated light rail on-street without the forest of poles, overhead wires, etc. I would like to see us do that in Dublin as well.

I recently attended another committee of the House as regards transport, which heard various strange suggestions such as closing down half the streets in Dublin, etc. I wonder whether this committee might have a role in pushing the business cause in Dublin. Instead of Deputy Willie Penrose just writing to the Minister, perhaps this committee might have a role as regards inviting in the RPA, Dublin City Council and the people who will actually manage the metro project. We could make the point from an enterprise committee viewpoint that we want that project managed in such a way that it does not damage the city centre during that phase of development, rather than just writing letters. We should not allow the Joint Committee on Transport to control the project because it would look at everything from an infrastructural viewpoint and not at the bigger picture.

As regards the docklands, what is the DCBA's view on the suggestion that the bulk of the port's activity could be moved to north County Dublin? Would that potentially damage the DCBA's part of Dublin, or would the association see this as an opportunity to build a new Dublin beside the old one, with a higher incidence of residential accommodation than is possible in large parts of the city?

Some 15 years ago neither Paris nor Barcelona was as nice as each is now. However, both of them had very strong mayors who determined they would turn these cities around and make them the jewel of their respective countries. Dublin has the potential to be the jewel of Ireland. It is the economic power, but not the jewel of Ireland by any means. It was mentioned already how that might be done, in terms of signage, the boardwalk and so on. What does the association see as potential Government-led projects that could enhance the city? We are talking, for example, of a national theatre and a national conference centre. Could other projects such as these enhance the city?

As regards car parking, is there a potential opportunity to use Government parking spaces, particularly in the evening and at weekends? There is an enormous number of Government parking spaces, excluding Leinster Lawn of course, that could potentially be brought into use at weekends and in the evenings. Is there a case for this, or is it just pie in the sky?

Mr. Basil Good

Those are some useful and helpful questions, and we shall quickly try to go through them. I shall return to the metro first, and then hand over to my colleagues as regards one or two of the other areas.

We have looked at many of the models of transport in other cities. For the purposes of today, however, I would not like to confuse the message. We support Transport 21 and the metro. We put forward other possibilities, as regards having the box off O'Connell Street — as we see it has been hugely disruptive. We believe now that we have no choice but to support what is on the table and we will make the best of it.

I very much appreciate the Deputy's point that it would be good for the committee to invite the RPA to appear before it to ensure it manages this project so that it will not be to the detriment of the city. All of us realise that in five and ten years when this is all completed, it will be fantastic. Our concern is that some of our major traders, whether Clerys or other stores in the city centre, will find it extremely difficult to survive this period of construction, and none of us should underestimate that.

We must do everything we can to ensure the RPA and the city council — and we have had wide discussions with them — manage this project in a fashion that means the commercial life of the city does not come to a halt. We are not filled with confidence, given our previous experience as regards both the Luas and the work in O'Connell Street. However, we live in hope. Some of our members operate in the docklands area at the moment and they are concerned that even the work that is happening there is affecting the economic life of that part of the city.

We want the city centre Luas to run on underground rather than overhead wires. We have brought experts to see this system in Bordeaux and we are struggling to get the RPA to look at this seriously. We are not going to give up the fight because it would be a shame to have a series of wires in front of Trinity College and on O'Connell Street. We stood in the middle of Bordeaux and know that another system works. We cannot comprehend how that system is not considered. The operator of both systems is the same. A light rail system is being installed in Dubai with underground wires.

We support the movement of Dublin's deep sea port facilities, as well as the plans mooted to bring vibrancy to the area. It would be far better to have more people living in the docklands. Those driving the trucks and engaging in all this commercial activity in the harbour do not particularly want to be there and do not contribute much to the life of the city. It would be very wise to move them to Bremore or elsewhere in order that the area could be developed as a vibrant living part of the city.

Mr. Tom Coffey

The docklands developments have been a fantastic success and now form part of the city centre. However, there is a psychological problem, as the public does not yet see it as such. It is hard to get people to move around the city from areas of high volume to the businesses in the docklands. However, it will happen over time. More pedestrian and bus routes are needed, as they are quicker and more flexible to use and make the area more user friendly. There is a small ferry operating in the docklands and it only costs €2 to cross the river. Some think it is a mad idea, but it is actually a great one. Those who use the ferry to get to work on one side of the river cross again for lunch on the other side, which means a new economy is beginning to develop.

I am sure committee members are familiar with Professor Jane Jacobs in the United States who writes about cities. Her view is that cities create new activities and new employment opportunities when there is a critical mass of people. In other words, if 100 people are placed in an area, one will not create 30 jobs but if one places 1,000 people there, one will get 300 jobs. The reason is that things are done differently because a demand is created. The solution for Dublin and the rest of the country is to encourage higher residential and pedestrian densities in all our urban areas, be it Galway, Cork, Donegal or Limerick. In this way we could create new jobs that would not be dependent on international economies per se. They would give us more stability. We have twice the number working in Ireland than we had ten years ago, which is creating a new internal economy and sustaining extra jobs in places like coffee shops and so on.

The population of the city centre has gone up by 54% in the last ten years. We need to capture this and turn it into a great resource. We certainly support the idea of a directly-elected mayor of Dublin. However, we do not think it would be anybody other than a politician, as members know how hard it is to get elected. We know how hard it is to go out and vote. As most business people would not know how to do it, we think the mayor would be a politician. We need new vision for Dublin to make it a world class city with the highest possible standards in order that it will be perceived as great, clean and safe.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

I mentioned flagship projects such as the national theatre and national conference centre. Are there any other projects planned such as museums? I only know the docklands area because of the train station. I would have no reason to go there otherwise, but the train service from my constituency runs into it. If we could link the docklands with the interconnector, it would completely transform that part of the city.

Mr. Tom Coffey

We need major spaces for cultural events. One of the biggest problems in the city is that the National Concert Hall and the Gaiety are too small. We can do certain things, but the city has doubled in size. The footfall on the streets has increased by 300% since 1980. We need to up our game in order that we can accommodate the needs of a totally new city with a new population. People are moving into the city centre. Dublin will keep drawing as a linear city from from Belfast to Waterford. It will become a new dynamic and evolve into a city region like New York, Los Angeles or some of the other linear cities. That will create huge demand for new services and products in the west such as agricultural products. All of my relations are from outside Dublin and 60% of their entire output is sold into Dublin. That is the way forward, but we need to develop a much larger scale because within a short time we will end up with 10 million people in Ireland.

Vice Chairman

It is obviously a very exciting time for the city. It is crucial to maintain the momentum where the association is involved in its development. Some of my constituents would argue with the delegates about the contribution Dublin port makes to the area. That is an issue about which we can talk in the future. Deputy Varadkar will be delighted to know that the interconnector is planned to go through an area adjacent to the docklands station.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

It will be ready sometime around 2015. I will open it for the Vice Chairman.

Vice Chairman

It might be a little sooner with the improving economy, but it will be welcomed in our constituency.

I thank Mr. Good, Mr. Coffey, Mr. Keoghan and Mr. Ryder for their attendance. The development of the capital city is a matter of importance to the economy of the island. It is important that business and transport infrastructure is developed, while allowing business to continue uninterrupted. We thank the delegates for their presentation.

Mr. Basil Good

I thank the Vice Chairman.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.30 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 May 2008.