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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2009

Irish Farmers Association.

We are running a bit late, so we will have to speed up. I am aware that other witnesses are under time pressures. We must respect that, so I will not allow free reign from now on. One question per member should address the matter.

I am glad to welcome the representatives of the Irish Farmers Association, including Padraig Walshe, the IFA president. I welcome in particular Mr. Pat Smith, as it is his first time to appear before this committee in his new role as general secretary of the IFA. I congratulate him on his appointment. The IFA always comes with the press well lined up. The format is for a short presentation of five minutes, as the witnesses are aware. I do not think we will be as long with the IFA as with others, because we are aware of its role in representing the basic food producers. Questions should be short and precise, and we expect the IFA's answers to be likewise.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I wish the Chairman the best of luck in his efforts to raise money for cancer research.

I have a lot of weight to lose.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I hope it will not affect his ability to eat good quality Irish food.

I am afraid that is the problem.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I want to thank you, Chairman, and the other members for this opportunity to inform the committee, on behalf of farmers, growers and food processors, about the power of retail multiples. The dominant position of the large retail groups in Ireland and across the EU is widely recognised as forcing down the prices paid to food suppliers to unsustainable levels. Farmers and food processors are highly regulated and this relentless downward pressure on their margins from these retailers is not sustainable if we are to continue to produce high quality, safe food for consumers.

At the Oxford farming conference earlier this month, one speaker observed that in the past ten years the top six British supermarket chains had gained ownership of all the land of England without having to pay a penny for it. I believe there is a lot of truth in that statement.

Food processors and farmers compete relentlessly among themselves for shelf space, while the six major buyers continue to ratchet up their demands on standards and conditions, at the same time as they ratchet down the price paid to those suppliers. That situation is intolerable. Producers and suppliers are so fearful of the power the supermarkets wield over them that they are scared into silence and submission. The major fear is they will be delisted at the whim of a supermarket buyer. That is highlighted by suppliers on a regular basis.

The IFA was forced into mounting a media campaign over the past year regarding honesty in food pricing and we highlighted a number of undeniable truths. The submission contains a number of the advertisements we ran in the national newspapers.

Why were they not sent to the committee earlier?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

They are included. Farmers cannot produce two for the price of one. That is a continual catch call from some of the supermarkets. The second animal costs the same to rear and eats the same volume of feed as the first animal, whether that is a chicken, pig or bullock. The same applies to vegetables such as cauliflowers and cabbages.

Is that pressure applied by all the multiples?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

It is. We ran the advertisements last year and we said we would provide copies to the committee.

Did anybody come to the IFA regarding them? What was the reaction?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

We had a good reaction from our own members. We received little or no communication from the supermarket groups about our campaign. We met a number of them who were not happy about it. They told us farmers do not pay the cost of the promotions. The Chairman said during an earlier presentation that he found some of the comments unbelievable. I find it unbelievable that they can say farmers do not pay for the promotions because supermarkets work out a price for the year with suppliers and they build in the cost of promotions. A number of the international suppliers or larger food companies are asked to contribute to the promotions. Farmers do not contribute money to the cost of the promotion but it is built into the price paid to the farmer supplying product in the round of the year. These discounts damage farmers' livelihoods and the supermarkets maintain or increase their margins continually. The discount comes straight out of the farmer's pocket. The bottom line is two cannot be produced for the price of one. Food should not be used as a loss leader in predatory price campaigns but this is happening continually.

When the groceries order was repealed, we were told the consumer would benefit but the reality is supermarket margins have benefited. The presentation contains a table based on data from the CSO and Bord Bia to highlight the farmer's share of the price the consumer pays for a product. It ranges from 19% to 54%. For example, the share is 32% for milk, 22% for cheddar cheese, 26% for pork and bacon, 54% for beef, 50% for lamb and so on. These percentages have reduced over the years. All of them would have exceeded 50% 30 years ago whereas most of them are under 50% at this stage and they continue to reduce.

How do the Irish figures compare with the rest of the EU?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I do not have the figures off hand but I could try to find out and supply them.

That would be useful.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I will ask Mr. Smith to take note of that and we will try to supply the committee with the figures.

Could the IFA supply the figures for all markets it thinks are relevant?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Yes. In addition, for producers and suppliers who deal directly with retailers, for example, the horticulture sector, the retailer has imposed costs at will, which reduce the margin received by the producer. These include packaging and transport costs, for example, crate rental. They insist that the supplier must use the retailer's crate and that he or she must rent it. Such costs are built into the system. This demonstrates another method whereby retailer power is used to reduce producer margins. It does not directly reduce the price paid to the producer but, in effect, that is what it does.

The Chairman commented on the committee's familiarity with "hello money". Despite what various retailers say, we are adamant it is sought in one form or another. For instance, I refer to the practice in retailing of using long-term agreements, which are rebates the supermarket chains demand at will as end of year payments. This was very much to the fore at the end of last year.

What is involved?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Retailers seek a rebate on the basis of the volume of business they have done with suppliers.

However, the perception is it is "hello money".

Mr. Padraig Walshe

That is not said directly.

That is okay. I will say it.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

We all know what it means. That is very much what suppliers feel it means. Individuals are reluctant to speak out because they are afraid they will lose their customer and, very often, the supermarket is their only customer. It is an indirect way of collecting "hello money" and if the supplier wants the shelf space for the upcoming year, the retailer wants a rebate for the previous year. That practice is called a long-term agreement. Many of these costs are within the control of the Government.

The Oireachtas must demonstrate it is serious about reducing inflated costs. Business costs, which were mentioned by retailers earlier, are also an issue in the context of the competitive base for doing business. The cost of doing business is out of line with our main competitors. It has been aggravated by the sterling issue but a number of costs are within Government control. It must demonstrate it is serious about reducing these inflated business costs, including labour and energy costs, to improve competitiveness within the economy.

I welcome the comments of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources earlier about electricity costs. We have raised this issue over a number of weeks. Electricity prices increased by 17.5% over the past year when oil cost $147 per barrel. It reduced to $37 a barrel and it is approximately $50 a barrel currently. Electricity has become a significant cost for farms and every other business in the State and it must be addressed.

The supermarkets must also address their operational cost base to improve their competitiveness. It is obvious to everybody that major investment in retail supermarket space has been undertaken throughout the country over the past decade. The country has 30% over-capacity in retail space. Committee members have referred to various supermarkets recently built outside towns in their localities. There is a 30% surplus of retail space.

Food products represent the main materials sourced in Ireland by supermarkets and our concern is the food manufacturers and farmers are being targeted to pay for the over ambitious investment decisions made in boardrooms in Dublin and outside the country. Supermarket groups set a target for development in this market and they have striven to achieve it, which has led to over-capacity.

The Oireachtas can play a part in the various proposals we have made in our submission. There should be a code of practice for retailers in the context of the pressure being exerted with regard to prices. We are being forced to produce food at below cost. That position is unsustainable and, in the long term, it will damage food security, not only in Ireland but also in Europe. That issue may have to be addressed at European level.

We are going to become more dependent on imported foods that are not produced to the same standards that apply here. We are expected to meet the highest standards. I often state that we have the highest standards in the world for our own farmers but we have the lowest in the world in respect of imports. There are products being imported into Europe which would not be allowed into Japan, Korea, the US and several other major markets. The standards applied in respect of farmers in Ireland and throughout Europe are much higher than those applied in respect of producers in the US, Japan or anywhere else. That is a fact.

I will not comment further. Members have been provided with details of our proposals. The Government put down a commitment in its programme for Government that it would follow up on beef labelling. This has not happened. The legislative provision made in respect of beef labelling is not being implemented. Fewer than 30% of outlets are informing consumers with regard to the origin of beef, even though there is a legal requirement to do so. No one is policing the situation. Consumers probably know less now about what they are eating than ever before.

I thank Mr. Walshe for his presentation. As a result of what he said, the committee may wish to bring back some of its previous witnesses to question them again.

One of the first proposals put forward by Mr. Walshe is that, in the context of competition policy, farmers should be allowed to act together. Are farmers in other countries allowed to work together in order to negotiate fair prices?

Previous witnesses claimed that international distributors are causing the problems that are being experienced as a result of differentials and premiums imposed. There is no international distributor for the products of Irish farmers, so they are not contributing to the higher prices people are being obliged to pay.

Mr. Walshe was the second witness today to call for a code of practice for retailers. That matter will feature strongly in the committee's report.

With regard to the agreements that give rise to what is known as "hello money", I accept that no one wants to hold up their hand and state that they are involved in imposing such agreements. If the IFA could provide the committee with written evidence, on an anonymous basis, in that regard, it would be of great assistance. The committee is intent on pursuing this matter in order to discover what is taking place. However, the more information we can obtain in respect of practices of this nature — which are wrong and unfair — the better. The committee is trying to investigate the costs being imposed on consumers. However, it will not do so at the expense of fair play or people's jobs.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

It is very difficult to obtain such evidence.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Farmers will not run the risk of being delisted by declaring that they were tapped for extra money or whatever.

We do not need their names.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

For the evidence to stand up, sources would have to be provided. Two years ago a supplier in north County Dublin who was going out of business spoke out because he could not put up with these practices any longer. The man in question could not take the pressure any longer. We managed to obtain an increase of approximately 25% in the price of cabbage as a direct result of his action.

Where is the man in question now?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

He is gone out of the business. Until someone else who is going out of business is willing to talk, it would be extremely difficult to provide evidence. However, the pressure on suppliers to which I refer is continual in nature.

The corollary of that is that the big boys are trampling on their smaller counterparts in order to maintain their margins.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

That is correct. I do not want to single out the presentation made by the previous group — it was the only one for which I was here — but I was concerned with regard to Mr. Keohane's assertion that Tesco is advertising itself as the country's largest discounter. This means that Tesco obviously has a target to compete with the other two retailers which see themselves as discounters. The latter both do it at a much lower margin than the larger supermarket chains.

I also inquired about competition policy.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

The only people the previous director of the Competition Authority — I refer here to Dr. John Fingleton who has left his post and moved to the UK Office of Fair Trading — ever took to court were liquid milk suppliers who tried to stop milk coming into the country from Northern Ireland at a discounted price. Dr. Fingleton asserted in court that it was illegal for farmers to discuss the price of milk. The judge asked him whether he was of the view that it would be illegal for two farmers to meet after church on Sunday to discuss the price of milk and he replied in the affirmative. That attitude is beyond belief.

How would such a stance fit in with the Government policy that advocates producer groups?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

It does not fit in with it. This is the inequity in competition policy that we are highlighting. As far as the then director of the Competition Authority was concerned, it would even be illegal for the IFA to act on behalf of a group and demand a higher price from a co-op. That represents taking competition law to an absolutely ridiculous level.

On the Deputy's point with regard to the standard in other countries, I am not aware that it is a problem. The French have a system whereby the industry, the retailers and the processors fix the price of milk on a regular basis. This also applies in respect of other areas of agriculture in France.

I presume it works quite well for everyone involved.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Yes.

Mr. Pat Smith

The representatives from Tesco claimed that, in Ireland, the company is small fry relative to the major international providers. What is the position of farmers in this equation?

He must be the mouse.

Mr. Pat Smith

Since 1995, average farm incomes have decreased by approximately 65% in real terms. Tesco's has continually increased, while that of farmers has gone down. There is obviously a dominant position which must be addressed.

The committee's focus is on the pricing regime, competition in general and promoting the display and sale of Irish-made products in the Irish retail market. I am somewhat disturbed by references to farmers being delisted or being afraid that this will happen. The IFA is the main organisation representing farmers. Does it carry out surveys of its members — on an anonymous basis — to discover how many of them have been delisted, are concerned about being delisted or who have been threatened with delisting? If the IFA could provide written evidence in this regard, the committee would be able to bring the multiples back in to discuss the matter further. This is an extremely serious issue. It is not acceptable that small farmers might be concerned with regard to making statements to the IFA or the committee about particular retailers or wholesalers on foot of their fears of being delisted.

As Mr. Walshe stated, it is not possible for farmers to produce two for the price of one. Any expectation in that regard would be unfair. The committee could play an important role, alongside farming and other organisations, in the context of investigating this matter. This disturbs me. We no longer have so many full-time farmers and no longer have many of them supplying to these chains. The IFA should do some research into who and where these farmers are and supply us with that information, without naming names. We could then go to these people and find out if what has been said is true, because if it is happening, it is wrong.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

We will endeavour to do that if possible, but it will be difficult because people are reluctant to speak out. We will try to get some information for the committee on it.

There is a big issue also with regard to promotion and display, namely, the area of substantial transformation. Product coming into this country is changed by the addition of a few breadcrumbs, spices or sauces or it is sliced and packed and it is then called a product of Ireland. The labelling is so misleading that the consumer knows less than ever about the origin of the food. People would need a dictionary and a magnifying glass with them when shopping in order to read some labels. Much of the product description is in E-numbers, rather than saying the product was produced in Claremorris, Cork or wherever. It should be possible to put the name of the company and origin on products. People buying meat or vegetables can see the name of the plant that packed or sliced it, but the label tells them nothing about the origin of the product.

We went through that area fairly vigorously this morning, but did not get the chance to discuss it with Tesco. It is an issue on which we have a strong view and we intend to travel to Brussels where we will probably meet Mr. Michael Treacy, if he is still there. He may be able to open a few doors for the committee there so we can pursue the issue.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

The problem was highlighted during the pork crisis when traceability was an issue. The amount of mixing of product that goes on in secondary processing areas is unbelievable. In some cases there is deliberate mixing so traceability cannot be followed through. There may only be 10% Irish product and 90% product from elsewhere, yet they say they are using Irish product.

With reference to the table on page 2 representing the farmers' share of consumer price, it would be useful to see the split with regard to product supplied directly to supermarkets and that supplied indirectly. In some cases farmers do not supply directly to the supermarkets, but to creameries or factories. It would be useful to know the costs in that middle area.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

We have some interesting graphs on that issue and can provide them for the committee. They show that over the years the farmers' margin has been dropping, the processors' margin has been reasonably consistent but the supermarkets' margin has grown substantially.

It is surprising, in terms of meat, that the farmers' share for beef and lamb has been 50% and above, while that for pork and bacon has only been 26%. Why is it so low for pork and bacon?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Beef and lamb are the only two where the percentage has increased over the past few years, mostly in the past 12 months. That is directly attributable to the campaign we ran on Brazilian imports. Since they were removed from the marketplace, the price the farmer has received has increased. It is worth noting that the only stock that has held and increased its value in the past 12 months has been livestock.

Mr. Pat Smith

With regard to white meat, the reason the percentage is lower is because of labelling. Some 50% of the white meat used in this country is imported, both pork and poultry. Much of it comes in, a few breadcrumbs are thrown at it and it is then resold as Irish. That is a key issue and this is the reason the percentage is so low for pork and bacon.

I have often wondered about the value of a litre of full-fat milk versus a litre of skimmed milk or low-fat milk. I would see the full-fat milk as more valuable, yet the supermarket prices are probably the same. Is that the case?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Probably, I do not do the shopping. I do not even buy milk, because we use our own.

Is it sold at different prices from the creameries?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I imagine there is probably a premium on low-fat milk, but the dairy would also have the benefit of the skimmed cream being sold as a separate product.

Mr. Pat Smith

Low-fat milk is sold as a premium product. There is obviously more processing involved. From a marketing perspective a higher price can be demanded.

It seems to me there is significant money being made in that area, an excessive profit.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

There is a big margin across all products in the Irish retail trade.

To sum up, in the context of price issues, it seems Irish farmers cannot take any further reductions from supermarkets. If only 19% of the price of a 2.5 kg bag of potatoes goes to the farmer, some 80% is going somewhere else, yet, without the farmer, the product would not be available. Is that a good summation of the argument?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Very much so. Farmers are often pilloried in the media about the payments they get from Brussels. As the committee knows, the single farm payment has been decoupled from production. Most farmers — sheep, beef, dairy and grain farmers — produce below the cost of production and the money they get from Europe is like a direct subsidy to consumers. If it were not for those payments, that product would not be produced here.

The retail margin, however, has increased substantially over the years and we will send the graphs that prove that to the committee. I called into the farm machinery show on my way to Dublin and a farmer came up to me to discuss his story. He was supplying a particular product to a supermarket chain for the Christmas trade — I will not mention it because it would identify him — and was preparing it for the shelf. All the supermarket had to do was provide the shelf space and collect the money from the consumer. The supermarket put a 100% mark-up on the price it was paying him. This is a reality.

Was it a seasonal product?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Yes.

Enough said. We have touched on most of the issues. It is a pity we did not have this discussion earlier this morning. We should have had Mr. Walshe in at 9 a.m. The issues he has raised are important in the overall context of retail prices because farmers are at the ground level of food production. Something is wrong somewhere. As people know, I have close contact with the farming sector. Most farmers are struggling to survive, yet the products cost a lot on the shelf. Some people are making money somewhere.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

In summary, the level of reward for farmers in sectors of the industry where little or no European support was provided over the years, such as horticulture, pigs, chickens., etc., has gone to a very low level. These farmers have been almost squeezed out of production, but they are the groups that must deal directly with the retail trade. They are suffering. Members can see the prices from the advertisements. The products are being offered at 40% off or two-for-one. This misleads consumers because it leads them to believe they can continue to have high-quality produce, produced to the highest standards. Consumers think that once a product is on an Irish supermarket shelf, it has been produced to the standard Europe insists Irish farmers must meet. Because of poor labelling, the product may have been imported and will definitely not have been produced to the same standard. It is very misleading and continually forcing Irish producers out of production. These issues have to be addressed, the crucial ones being competition, the control which supermarkets exert and labelling.

I thank Mr. Walshe and Mr. Smith.

I ask the delegation to excuse my ignorance, but do farmers deal on a one-to-one basis with the multiples?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Those involved in horticulture do so in many cases. Sometimes the IFA will set up a group such as Dublin-Meath Growers which was set up a number of years ago and from which Tesco takes a lot of produce. It is moving the packing operation of that product to Armagh where a lower minimum wage rate applies. Tesco will initially take product from north County Dublin to Armagh for packing and then bring it back down to Tesco stores in the South. While this will be fine for the first 12 months or so, in a year or two will Tesco even bother taking the Irish product to Armagh but rather bring it directly from the United Kingdom or somewhere else? That is our fear. This poses a major threat to the industry.

Will the delegation supply the committee with a list of the groups mentioned?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

We can.

Whatever is available.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Dublin-Meath Growers is one such group.

What about the nursery men?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

A number of farmers are supplying supermarkets directly.

To confirm what Mr. Walshe stated, they are bringing meat from Dublin to Armagh and bringing it back down again for distribution.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

No, vegetables.

That is even worse because vegetables do not need a lot of packaging.

Who is bearing the cost?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Because of the sterling differential it is being supplied to supermarkets here from Armagh as it is cheaper to pack it there. I am not surprised at this, as I came across such an incidence a few years ago in Scotland where product was being sent from Scotland to Poland for packaging and brought back to a central distribution depot in the south of England for distribution all over the United Kingdom.

In some cases it would not be the supermarket but rather the vegetable processor who was sending product to be packaged at a lower cost.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

It is due to continuing downward pressure. The supermarkets are telling consumers everyday they can have a better quality product for less money but this is not possible.

It is a matter of knowing where to apportion blame appropriately.

Mr. Pat Smith

The reason we are losing our vegetable industry — the potato and other industries are also under pressure — is it is very easy to bring a truckload from the United Kingdom at critical times such as Brussels sprouts at Christmas time. This means a farmer is left with his or her Brussels sprouts in the field and imported produce is used. What does the farmer do?

I raised the issue of packaging with Musgrave but forgot to do so with Tesco. It indicates my view on the matter.

I thank Mr. Walshe and Mr. Smith and wish them good luck in their new role. I thank them for their patience and forbearance, as we delayed them. The committee will send the delegation a copy of its final report whenever we get around to finalising it, as there is a large amount of material to be considered.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I wish the committee luck in its proceedings.

We will be travelling to Brussels.

Mr. Pat Smith

We will help the committee in any way we can.

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