Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT debate -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2009

Tesco (Ireland) Limited.

The next delegation before the committee is from Tesco (Ireland) Limited. I apologise for the overrun. Mr. Tony Keohane, chief executive, was before the committee yesterday and is back again. I note Mr. Seán Dorgan is back in a different guise from the last time he met the committee.

It is as if I am the priest hearing confessions at this stage, but I must say the same thing to each group. I will ask the delegation to provide the usual summary. Mr. Keohane will be aware of the procedure from yesterday. We will then have a question and answer session. We will try to elicit the information and elucidate upon the various points and propositions made. I again thank the delegation for its forbearance, because we over ran the allocated time and we probably did not begin as quickly as we would have liked. Before we begin, I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I thought Mr. Dermot Breen was to appear before the committee.

Mr. Tony Keohane

He is parking the car.

We thought Tesco would bring free parking to the Houses. I invite Mr. Tony Keohane to begin.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I am joined by our chairman, Mr. Seán Dorgan, and my colleague, Mr. Dermot Breen, director of corporate affairs. The public hearing is timely given the challenges, discussed at the meeting yesterday, in the retail sector and more broadly in the country. As a group we continue to employ 14,000 people throughout the country in 117 stores. We serve more than 2 million customers each week. This employment has been achieved mainly because of the choices we offer at the lowest possible prices.

Our cash saver range introduced last year offered 1,500 everyday products at the lowest price. It has been a major success with shoppers and places Tesco as the county's largest discounter. The advantage shoppers find at Tesco is that in addition to offering great prices, we also carry the branded products which people wish to have in their shopping baskets. We fully understand consumers and we understand the committee's concerns and annoyance about the significant difference in price for many products in Northern Ireland compared with Ireland. We share the committee's frustration in this regard. We take no pleasure in seeing our customers travel across the Border to shop for lower prices.

Since we seek to buy Irish products wherever possible, there may be some price gaps because of prevailing costs in this country. The most striking price differences and those which cause the most concern are the comparative prices of similar international grocery brands for products such as bread, sweets, biscuits, toiletries, drinks, pasta and so on. This frustrating phenomenon requires some explanation.

Three key factors determine prices on either side of the Border. One is supplier product costs, which account for up to 80% of retailers' total costs. A second is business operating costs including pay, rents, land, energy, utility costs, taxes and so on. A third factor is the impact of currencies which have been at their most volatile and damaging in the past year.

The recent Forfás report, The Cost of Running Retail Operations in Ireland, confirmed the significant gap in operating costs and taxes and also confirms that we have a significant competitiveness problem in this jurisdiction. However, its study only examined around 20% to 25% of the total cost base. If it also looked at wholesale costs by suppliers to the retail industry a more comprehensive picture would emerge. These costs represent 75% to 80% of retail costs and will thus have a direct impact of up to 80% of the retail price.

The simple fact is that prices charged by suppliers of international products here in Ireland are higher than elsewhere in Europe. It is seen across confectionery, baby products, soups, sauces, cereals, cleaning products and so on. These wholesale prices are significantly higher than in Britain or Northern Ireland, putting retailers here at a significant cost disadvantage. These higher costs are invariably reflected in higher retail prices, along with the higher operating costs, and are the core contributing problem to higher prices south of the Border.

The European Internal Market is segmented by big international brand owners into national markets with different prices and it is clear that they place Ireland at the high price end of that market. Critically it is within the current structure of buying international products that the imbalances in the currency equation have come to light over the past year or so.

A result of the wholesale market structure that has evolved is that most retailers here, like us, buy locally from the local sales offices of these international suppliers. However, we buy mostly in euro, not sterling, and hence do not gain any upside or downside from exchange rate fluctuations. The gains in the past year, as sterling has depreciated, have been guarded by almost all of the international supply companies and have not been made available through for the benefit of the consumer. A very few have come clean in a limited way but most have continued to enjoy the fruits of the currency changes.

We are now doing something to address the unacceptably high wholesale cost issue and getting out of the exchange rate noose that affects us as well as our customers. As a result of what we have uncovered, we are pioneering a transformation of the European grocery supply market in Ireland which will result in us buying products centrally and avoiding the inflated wholesale prices consistently charged in Ireland by the international supply operators here.

This involves a radical change in the structure of the supply chain for international products in Ireland and is an important step in lowering costs and hence prices for consumers here. These changes only affect international products handled by the major international suppliers and have no impact whatsoever on Irish produced products or how they are delivered by Irish suppliers.

If further evidence was required, it was reported recently that another significant Irish-owned player in the retail sector here has started sourcing many of these products directly from a European wholesaler operating in Northern Ireland, is circumventing the high costs we have all faced here and is reportedly saving substantial amounts in product costs. It would not surprise us to discover that many other retailers operating here are also exploring similar means of buying. All of this confirms that the high cost of products for retailers is a significant issue in the consumer price equation.

The changes we are making are not meeting with universal acceptance by the international suppliers but I am glad to say that a number are moving in the right direction. We are, however, committed to the changes as the only way to deliver lower prices for Irish consumers. It would, perhaps, help Ireland's consumers if this committee were to ask the main international grocery suppliers to come here on a company by company basis to explain why they charge higher wholesale prices in Ireland than elsewhere. It would help to round off the work started by Forfás on the cost competitiveness challenge we face in this country.

The committee can be assured that we are fully committed to offering our customers the best possible prices for food and non-food products in the Irish market, but we must take account of the prevailing market costs and circumstances. We are determined to bring costs and prices down further through greater efficiencies in our own operations, introducing innovations and improvements in how we do things.

Just over four years ago, two of my colleagues were asked by this committee what they would like it to do to improve the lot of the consumer in Ireland. Our response then was it could help to bring the costs down and our response today is the same. We are taking steps in that direction and hope the committee can add to those efforts by addressing the higher operating costs and exploring the higher wholesale price regime that operates here. The consumer will be well served on both counts.

The last piece of the committee's invitation for comment is also important to competition and success in the Irish market, namely Irish products. Irish shoppers want us to buy local for economic and environmental reasons. We are a major supporter of the Irish food industry and since 1997 have played a significant role in the growth and expansion of many food producing businesses. We provide advice and technical support for small and medium-sized producers looking to expand and export. We purchase and sell Irish food products in the Irish and export markets.

Indecon Economic Consultants quantified our support for the Irish economy at €2.5 billion in 2007. This was made up of purchases valued at €1.98 billion from Irish suppliers. As I said yesterday, some €655 million of this is accounted for by exports of Irish food products to Tesco businesses worldwide, mainly the UK. In addition, Irish meat is now sold in Tesco stores in Czech Republic and Hungary. The €655 million exported to the Tesco group worldwide makes it the second largest market for Irish food exports worldwide, exceeding the exports to France, Germany or the USA.

We actively promote local producers and local products across our stores to encourage people to shop locally and to give them a reason not to travel to the North. As well as the 14,000 people we employ directly, we account for another 14,000 jobs among Irish suppliers. Like the Tánaiste, we think this is an important reason to shop in the Republic.

We actively promote Irish products through a number of initiatives. These include high profile branding and advertising of Irish fresh produce through hanging boards and other points of sale in stores; having "produced in Ireland" identified on Tesco products made in Ireland and in weekly advertising; by the use of Bord Bia quality assured logos; and showing pictures of local farmers who produced particular products like lamb, beef, pork, carrots and onions. A novel innovation has been to use county colours to showcase the products from the shoppers own county in local stores.

We have approximately 800 Irish suppliers including household names like Barry's Tea, Batchelors, Bewley's, Lir Chocolates, Hilton Meats, Largo Foods, Country Crest, Wilson's Country, Shannon Minerals and so on. Our commitment to and support for Irish products both here and internationally is well established and it is intended to continue that support well in to the future. I hope the committee has found our presentation useful and we will be happy to answer any questions members may have.

I thank Mr. Keohane.

I thank the witnesses for the presentation. We are trying to drill down to the difference between their perception of the cost differential and that of Forfás. We have identified that there seems to be agreement on a differential of approximately 10%. Can the witnesses provide some details, as some presentations mentioned, on the breakdown in costs from Tesco's point of view and why the costs are particularly bad?

All witnesses this morning have given us some financial information to allow us to make a judgment call on their perceptions of costs. Would Mr. Keohane be willing to tell us what margin Tesco Ireland is working off compared with the group margin and the one that Tesco UK operates? They are separate organisations but it would be helpful for us to know that margin. We appreciate the attendance by the witnesses at this meeting. They at least showed respect for the committee unlike the third party.

The food and drink association of IBEC was strong on the point that the dominant retailers, Tesco, SuperValu and Dunnes Stores, affect the health of its industry by pushing for hello money, asking suppliers to fund incentives and charity drives, and in some cases bullying them into lowering their costs by use of long-term agreements. In other words, the retailers make the supplier take the burden of reduced prices in the stores. What does Mr. Keohane think of that? We put this question to SuperValu too.

Tesco is not the first to tell us about the suppliers' international products but it is the biggest beast in the jungle and it is a stretch to expect us to believe that it cannot stand up to these big bad producers. The food and drink association and the IFA suggest that Tesco waves a big bat if people do not do what it tells them. It may not sock them, yet it is not able to take on wholesalers whom it would probably chew up without a thought, as a business operation. I find that hard to believe. I can accept an independent retailer or one off-store having difficulty dealing with a wholesaler. It is a stretch to ask me to believe that Tesco has not introduced central buying or changed the model for importing foods before now. Tesco appeared before this committee four years ago and I cannot believe that this issue regarding supply chains was not highlighted then. Why is it that four years on Tesco is only beginning to tinker with it?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I shall answer those questions in reverse order. We are equally frustrated by the length of time it has taken for the sterling benefit to flow from the international suppliers. Our contracts with these suppliers are in euro, not sterling, so arrangements would need to change in order for the benefit to flow. Deputy Calleary is right to say that the price difference between North and South would have been narrower. Our distribution set up would not have been in place then. It is now and we have opened distribution centres here to enable us to import directly.

The international suppliers are not small. They make us look small. Many are bigger than the Tesco group. It is not the David and Goliath situation that is portrayed. When sterling moves and our contracts are in euro the balance of power moves to the supplier. We are making progress and have good relations with our suppliers. We do not agree on everything and we have not agreed on the transfer of the sterling difference to consumers here. Progress is unbelievably slow. We will not give up on this but will keep going until we make the arrangements that will enable the sterling benefit to flow to consumers here. That is our aim.

We believe we have a good relationship with suppliers local and international. If the Deputy, or any member of the committee, hears of any improper action such as those actions it has mentioned, which I believe are illegal, we want to know about it straightaway. We are not aware of any such actions and have good proper, professional relations with our suppliers. Where we disagree with them we do so in the right way.

I am not aware of any retailer in Ireland disclosing its profitability.

I asked about Tesco's margin.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Margin or profitability.

Musgrave gave it to us.

Musgrave gave us its margin in the previous presentation.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Musgrave is a wholesale group. It has not given the committee its retail margins. It may have quoted a wholesale margin.

Three members of RGDATA opened up their books to us this morning and invited us down to their shops.

In the absence of margin or profit information the public believes that Tesco is achieving a higher margin off its back. We cannot deal with that.

The most up to date comments on Tesco's finance date to 2004 when according to The Sunday Tribune the Irish operating margin of Tesco was 11% higher than that in the United Kingdom and 16.9% higher than its average margin worldwide. That was out of sync because the Irish business was more food-orientated than that elsewhere. We have to make a call on the cost issue. That is why we are here today. It is hard for us to operate without knowing Tesco’s financial model. We do not want to know about the executive bonuses. We are not dealing with the banks today. We want to know only the ball park figure.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We want to be as transparent as we possibly can but we are not aware of any retailer with which we compete disclosing its profitability. It is the standard in Ireland where we compete against family-owned businesses that profitability is not disclosed. We disclose our sales every year and give as much information as we can. Our numbers are included in the Tesco European numbers and are not segmented which is in line with international practices. No other Irish retailer discloses its profitability.

The Tesco group returns in Ireland are lower than those in Northern Ireland or in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Keohane is familiar with the Northern Ireland business today.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I did a bit of checking since the Deputy challenged me yesterday. I have not checked the shop in Balbriggan.

Mr. Keohane shocked us when he did not know because five minutes later someone came in here who was unrelated to Tesco but knew everything about it. That is not important today.

Mr. Tony Keohane

It does not suggest that the person was correct.

It took us only five minutes and a trip across the Border. We were in the mall.

Is Tesco happy to stand over all its relationships and the manner in which it deals with its suppliers?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are in business and different views are taken. Business is tough and the environment is becoming tougher and consumers are our harshest critics. They will make their choices. We are here for the long term. We are not producers and rely on our suppliers to produce for us and we want long-term, good, sustainable relationships. Every year we poll our suppliers in a viewpoint survey to establish the issues uppermost in their minds. We work to try to ease or resolve those over the following year. We have very good relationships with our suppliers. The people who complain most about us are those who do not deal with us.

The points I wanted to raise have already been covered. We have heard today that supply accounts for approximately 80% of retailers' costs. In its submission Tesco said it hoped to overcome that. Will it do that through its distribution centres?

I was amazed that Tesco Ireland did not have major buying power. I understand the reason small shops would have difficulty in accessing products, and I am aware Tesco Ireland is a separate company from Tesco UK, but there must be some way it can circumvent it or use its initiative to get around those wholesale prices. Can Mr. Keohane outline how Tesco is doing that now? He mentioned Tesco is making inroads in that regard but can he outline specifically how it is doing it?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are doing exactly as the Deputy is suggesting. We are linking with our international and our United Kingdom colleagues where the product is not made in Ireland but routed through the UK. In switching our contracts to sterling based contracts we will be using that facility to bring that product and that benefit to the Irish supplier, business and consumer.

Tesco will have a major advantage over its competitors because of that facility and I hope that will be passed on to consumers, which I am sure will be done.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We believe it is our duty to bring the lowest prices possible to the market place.

What about Irish suppliers? Do individual stores take product directly or does it all go to distribution centres?

Mr. Tony Keohane

A total of 90% is through a distribution centre for Irish suppliers. The Irish supply base is separate. That is a different call. We are not talking about changing the range we carry but the way the product is charged to us. Some supply routes will change and some of the systems supporting it will change. The product arriving at our shelves will be the same but at a sterling rather than a euro contract. That is what we are working on. In a sense, we take the sterling risk. The supplier has previously taken the currency risk. We will now take the sterling risk.

The main issue is the difference in the cost of the product one can buy in Tesco Ireland and Tesco in the UK or across the Border. People are travelling across the Border to shop because they believe there is a difference in price of up to 30%. What does Mr. Keohane believe is the difference in prices on average in recent months? Is it 30%, more or less? On the cost base he said the difference is approximately 10% and the rest he put down to sourcing the product. He said the problem is that the international suppliers are not giving Tesco the benefits in terms of sterling. I am shocked that Tesco Ireland cannot avail of the clout of Tesco UK to drive better bargains.

On previous occasions Mr. Keohane maintained that approximately 40% of Tesco's product is Irish. That product does not come through the international wholesalers and there should not be a problem regarding that with the prices of those products. Those prices cannot be sold at inflated prices. How much of a difference to the cost base is Mr. Keohane putting down to the international distributions?

We must get to the nub of the real difference in cost. Mr. Keohane maintains Tesco Ireland's margins are less than they are in its parent company. I presume he is standing over that statement. We have gone through this issue with all the representatives in terms of ensuring the margins are the same. Aldi and Musgrave maintain they are the same across the board and if that is the case, so be it.

The previous group indicated to the committee that it has reduced costs by almost €100 million in the past year through efficiencies, working with suppliers and so on. Has Tesco done the same? Is that done by putting pressure on suppliers to reduce costs or through other initiatives? We asked that question of all the representatives.

The committee accepts there are major problems with the costs of doing business in this country. They are higher than as stated in the report in regard to electricity, waste and so on. We are dealing with that but can Mr. Keohane clarify for the committee the top two or three he believes must be tackled because we will have to investigate that?

Regarding the suppliers, it was said earlier that suppliers believe unsustainable pressure is being put on them by the multiples; no names were mentioned. Are they making that up? They put that on record in an Oireachtas committee and it must be true, and they have said they can furnish us with evidence. Previously we have heard that in other areas suppliers are being asked to do too much, including the costs of advertising and other costs. What is the origin of that rumour if it is not true? The previous group said it was not them and therefore we must go through this process to find out what is going on because if that is the case it is wrong.

I am aware Tesco Ireland works very closely with suppliers in terms of helping them get set up and so on. It would be familiar with suppliers and therefore it might indicate the suppliers' margins that are acceptable to Tesco Ireland and how low it would push them to get its price. We want low prices for consumers but it cannot be at the expense of fewer jobs and so on. Suppliers in Ireland have a smaller market to serve.

I asked the previous group this question. What can the Government do to help suppliers compete against suppliers from other markets because they will be not be able to compete with those markets?

On the wage cost, some of the groups who were before the committee earlier claimed they pay their staff a much higher wage than the minimum wage because they believe in doing that. Are wage costs a major factor for Tesco Ireland? Does it operate on the minimum wage, which I accept is higher than across the Border, or does it aim to go higher than that? One of the multiples here claimed they pay much higher than the minimum wage.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I might ask my colleagues to address some of the questions. On the question of wages, we might be the only retailer to have full relationships with our union partners. We pay above the minimum rate. We pay fully unionised recognised wages.

Our commitment to the Irish supply base is absolute. There is no pulling back from that whatsoever. We recognise there are strains currently. The mindset of the consumer, who is at the heart of all of this, has changed radically in the past nine months. We would have worked actively with suppliers in recent years to achieve the correct balance in terms of lower priced, medium priced and premium products but consumers are now looking for lower prices.

Discussions have taken place with our suppliers to bring about as many savings to the consumer as possible. We are undertaking a root and branch review of our own operation to ensure we do our bit because we all recognise that everyone participating in the community must do what it can to respond to the current crisis. We are no different internally and in terms of imparting that to our suppliers to do similar.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Deputy English spoke about using muscle and that he could not believe Tesco Ireland cannot leverage this——

Mr. Dermot Breen

Tesco Ireland operates as a stand alone business in Ireland. Some of our competitors are larger than us in sales terms. In fact, our two main competitors, Dunne's and Musgrave, are significantly larger than us. They would have a larger turnover than Tesco Ireland. If we want to do it on that basis, theoretically they would have more muscle than us.

Mr. Breen need not worry. The same question will be put to their representatives.

Mr. Dermot Breen

That is fine. The reality is that international suppliers are mega-businesses. One of our main suppliers is more than twice the size of Tesco worldwide. They are very substantial businesses. These are major multinational businesses. What most of them sell are not just generic products but actual brands. If someone wants to be in the business of selling in retail they must have a certain range of brands. They must have the Weetabix, Kellogg's Cornflakes and Colgate toothpaste. That gives those suppliers an enormous amount of leverage over any retailer who purports to play in that game. If they want to play in the generic discount game they can shun all those brands and use their leverage in terms of getting generic product made but if someone is in the brand business, which is what Tesco is in, we are at the mercy of many of those suppliers most of the time, and that gives them an enormous amount of leverage. One can always refuse to have it but if one has not got the key products for the customers when they walk in, they will walk out again and go elsewhere. We have to play that game.

Can Mr. Breen explain the reason Tesco Ireland cannot bring in its product in the same way as Tesco operating in the North does?

Mr. Dermot Breen

That is the key difference.

Will he also deal with the difference in the prices across the Border because we did not fully address that in terms of the 30% margin. We are a long way from adding that up piece by piece.

Mr. Dermot Breen

In 1997 Tesco bought an existing business, which was a stand alone business in Ireland. We have evolved that business in Ireland. We have taken some advantage from the Tesco Group including much of the experience and knowledge, but we pay for that. We have been operating as a stand alone business and we have had our own supply arrangements with the domestic supply base because that is the way the business and the industry here has been structured. The only breakdown in the local structure occurred when the German discounters came in because they did not use a local supply base. We have built up a local supply base in Ireland both for Irish and international product. We have not had the scale nor the supply chain facilities to work outside that supply base and to buy from the wider European or world Tesco platform and take in product through an alternative route.

Is that because Tesco does not have the necessary scale?

Mr. Dermot Breen

It is not so much the scale, it is the supply chain structures, including the warehousing capability to do that.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Now we have that capability and are in the process of making those changes. As differences in prices, in the exchange rate and so on have come to light in the past year, we are now in a position to make those changes and have begun that process. Many of our competitors are also working at alternative ways of getting in product, of circumventing the local supply of the international brand supply base. They are working around that as well because they have had the same experience. We are trying to get independence in this process to bring in cheaper product for customers.

Mr. Seán Dorgan

It might be useful to consider the process from the top end. Europe set out to achieve a single integrated market in the early 1990s under the 1992 programme. That has not happened in consumer goods because the big powerful international brands differentiate market by market. Ireland is a market of 4 million people, Northern Ireland is part of a UK market of 60 million people with equalised prices. The international brands treat the UK as a market of 60 million people, therefore, stores in Strabane benefits from that. They treat the Republic of Ireland separately with their own sales offices. They have effectively required every significant retailer in Ireland to deal with their local offices in Ireland. The challenge for all the retailers is to get the international price, not a differentiated higher Irish price from a local office.

That is what is being done.

Mr. Seán Dorgan

That is what Tesco has been working on.

What percentage of the price difference between the Republic and the North of Ireland contributes to that higher price?

Mr. Seán Dorgan

As Forfás pointed out, up to 80% of the retail price of products in shops are accounted for by the product. Up to 80% of the cost comes from either the producer or the importer. The retailer's costs account for 20% to 25%. We would not argue with the details Forfás has built up of where the costs for retailers lie.

Those percentages are the costs involved.

Mr. Seán Dorgan

We suggest that the committee ask suppliers where their costs lie.

We will do that. I want to clarify that Forfás indicated that doing business in the South is about 25% dearer than it is in the North, which contributes to a 5% price difference. Mr. Dorgan said that the price difference is 10%, and most others involved would agree with him. Therefore, there is a 10% price difference involved. A further 20% has to be accounted for in terms of price difference. Is Mr. Dorgan saying that 20% price difference relates to wholesalers' costs, economies of scale and the sterling-euro exchange rate?

Mr. Seán Dorgan

In broad chunks, the remaining difference is accounted for between taxation and the supplier costs.

That is what I meant.

I will take a brief contribution from Deputy White, as a number of members are offering.

I have two simple questions. I would like to know a little about the Tesco ethos, whether its overall ethos is to adopt a one-stop-shop strategy whereby it hoovers up a variety of retail services? It has its banking sector and its fuel, food, including fresh food, hardware, music, book and floristry divisions. Is it Tesco's intent to be a big hoover operation, collecting all these assortments of retail apparatus at the expense of the small retailer in small towns and villages?

In terms of Tesco's aggressive discounting style, does it have weekly meetings on what products it will aggressively discount, whether it be vegetables, meat or flowers? What dictates that? Is it seasonality or is it competitor-driven? I would like an answer to those two questions.

Mr. Keohane briefly mentioned the wages paid to staff. I would like to know the breakdown of staff who are temporary, permanent, full time or part time, and the number who are on the minimum wage?

Mr. Tony Keohane

As I said on the wages issue, we pay all our staff the union rates, which are above the minium rate. In response to a question asked yesterday, we are sending in information on the breakdown of staff. Whether our staff are full time, part time or whatever hours they work, they are treated under the same terms and conditions, which is equivalent to that of full-time staff. There is no differentiation.

Our ethos is to be consumer-driven. We explained yesterday that we are multi-format. We have small and medium stores, larger stores and big stores. Working with the local authority, those stores are positioned in the right areas. The size of stores and the local market we are in determines the amount of space we give to different products. Whether we promote or discount products is a response to market conditions, consumer needs and so on. There is not a simple answer to that question. Retailing is a complex business, as we all know. We promote to be the best in the marketplace and to entice customers into our shops. In our bigger stores, many smaller businesses and smaller retailers feed off our footfall and do very well. It is quite a mixed picture.

Tesco has opened a very fine outlet in Tullow, County Carlow.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes.

I suggest Mr. Keohane takes a walk down Main Street in Tullow because the effect of the opening of Tesco's lovely shop on the edge of town is that the town is feeling the pinch in terms of the number of small retailers, pound or €2 shops as they are now, cropping up. That is a direct result of Tesco moving in there, which many people love, but the natural corollary of that is that the Main Street in Tullow is suffering because Tesco moved in. We cannot disagree with that because Tesco got planning permission and many people are happy to shop there.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We have a good store there.

Yes. However, it is a fact of life that where Tesco moves in the smaller retailer often has to move out.

Mr. Tony Keohane

I would have to dispute that because I do not believe that would stand up to scrutiny. I cannot argue the detail of the store in Tullow because I do not have it, but I know there were plenty of vacant stores on Main Street in Tullow before we arrived. What we brought to it was much needed competition. Prior to our arrival there was little competition in the grocery market. Our evidence, some of which we gave to——

There were three supermarkets in Tullow before Tesco arrived.

Mr. Tony Keohane

The price competition is better for consumers since Tesco arrived in Tullow.

Some of those supermarkets are on the brink. That is a fact. We rest our case.

Deputy White could speak for longer on that issue. I have two brief questions. Mr. Keohane made a comment about the Minister when she spoke favourably about the number of people Tesco had employed and the number of people it has supported, but she made other comments. I would like to hear Mr. Keohane's comments on the other statements she made, particularly in regard to price control and related issues. She mentioned price control and the differentials between the North and the South. Would Mr. Keohane like to comment on that?

Mr. Tony Keohane

I am not sure I understand the question.

Because of the perception among the general public that there is a large price differential between the North and the South, many people are now shopping in Northern Ireland. The Minister made a comment about regulating the price in the South.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Yes, I understand the point. That is a matter for the Minister. We would not want to comment on that. What we will focus on is what we talked about, namely, working with our international suppliers to move the advantage to the consumer as quickly as we can possibly do it. Anything that anybody in Ireland can do, led by the Government and the Tánaiste, to help us to reduce our operating costs would be welcome.

Are there any other questions that the representatives thought they would have been asked today that they would like to discuss with us before they leave? Are there any issues that have not been covered in this discussion?

How long have we got?

We will not cover that. I call Deputy Clune.

As I shop in supermarkets, I see an increasing number of Tesco's own brands on its shelves. What percentage of products that are its own brand are on its shelves? I know Tesco is not a discount store, as brands have been discussed earlier and I am aware that named brands are important. Does Tesco have a target to meet in respect of its own brands?

Mr. Tony Keohane

As a broad church retailer and supermarket, we carry brands, own brands and what we call discount brands. Everyone is welcome in Tesco, whether one is shopping on a low budget or otherwise. The Tesco brand is an important part of that equation. It makes up broadly about 30% of our products. It increases the options for consumer. Consumers who want good quality without having to pay the brand price are opting for the Tesco brand.

It is increasing all the time.

Mr. Tony Keohane

They are excellent products.

What is Tesco's current share of the grocery market in the Republic of Ireland, and does the company have a target share it is working towards?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We do not have a target share. We do not work on a target share. Our business plan is to grow our business by giving consumers what they want. Our plan is to open a number of stores every year — three or four stores a year — and a number of express stores every year. We do not have a market share target. The market share is a consequence of what we do, not a target in itself.

What is Tesco's current market share?

Mr. Tony Keohane

The market share is about 25.6%, as reported.

Mr. Tony Keohane

By TNS.

Mr. Dermot Breen

It is the TNS data. The Competition Authority did some analysis last year and estimated our market share at between 15% and 20%.

Has Tesco checked other outlets?

Mr. Dermot Breen

We do not know what other people's sales are because there is no information from our competitors at all, even about sales levels. They know our sales but we do not know theirs.

My question is related more to yesterday's topic. Can the representatives let us know how much land Tesco is holding around the country at the moment that has not been developed? We do not want a commercial breakdown obviously but just to give us an idea of what kind of land Tesco is holding around the country at the moment.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Practically nothing.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Practically nothing that we have not brought to the local authority with a view to putting a store on.

What legal mechanisms are available to the Government or anybody else concerning these international wholesalers who, the Tesco representatives claim, are not passing on the costs? What can Governments do? Are options available to them?

Mr. Dermot Breen

We are not aware of any legal routes.

Mr. Tony Keohane

We are trying to explain to the committee that we are now doing something, but it is taking longer than we had originally forecast because of the historical nature of this, as Mr. Dorgan has pointed out. We are happy we are making progress and that the suppliers are coming into line slowly. We are happy that we have the will and the means to complete that.

When the suppliers come into line, is Tesco saying the price difference will only be about 10% between here and across the Border? Is that it?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We said that the operating costs are in the order of 10%, depending on the currency fluctuation. There is a taxation issue as well, on top of that.

I would like to know who is the supplier that is twice the size of Tesco worldwide. I would like the Tesco representatives to tell us that name.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Gladly, Chairman.

Mr. Dermot Breen

We will tell you gladly.

Would you?

Mr. Dermot Breen

It is GSK.

GSK. That is grand.

In all fairness, they would not be the size they are if one of the biggest retailers in the world said, "We are not going to stock your supplies". Tesco is the oil that makes the machine. That is my view.

Does Tesco ask its suppliers to contribute directly or in any way to promotions or advertising?

Mr. Tony Keohane

We have a mix of arrangements with our suppliers. They are happy and want to be part of our promotional activity.

We should get into that business.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Suppliers queue up to get involved in promotions.

Mr. Tony Keohane

As I said — it was not a throw-away comment — the suppliers who complain are not the ones who deal with us.

Let us get to the chase with a final question. If a supplier does not play ball with Tesco and does not contribute to that, what happens?

Mr. Tony Keohane

If a supplier does not play ball with us, the consumer will be the person who will make the decision. What is playing ball if the product is not selling, is not on the shelf or not available?

If it is not on the shelf, Tesco is not playing ball.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Does the Deputy mean that the supplier who is not playing ball is not giving us the product?

No, if Tesco decides not to place the product on the shelves.

If a supplier has a good product which has been selling for Tesco previously, why would Tesco want them to make some contribution?

Mr. Tony Keohane

If the supplier has a good product the consumer wants, they will not have a problem with us.

Is there any cost to the supplier to put product on Tesco's shelves?

Mr. Dermot Breen

That is our cost.

That cost is not borne by the supplier. Aldi's representatives made it clear that if the product is produced and landed at their front door, they will stock it.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Absolutely.

Therefore, there is no additional cost to a supplier to get a product onto Tesco's shelves.

Mr. Dermot Breen

Suppliers do invest in promotions.

Are they obliged to pay for advertising and promotions?

Mr. Tony Keohane

They are not obliged, no.

Mr. Dermot Breen

It is illegal to ask them to contribute to advertising, so we do not do that. It is illegal.

When a supplier lands at Tesco's back door, or whoever brings the product for him, is that the cost to get onto the shelves? There is no other cost involved?

Mr. Tony Keohane

The historical arrangement in this industry here — I am going back for more years than I care to admit — is that suppliers would have done the whole range of work from bringing it to the back door, putting it on the shelf and merchandising it.

Therefore, they are involved in the store.

Mr. Tony Keohane

Please let me finish. Previously, the shops would have been full of merchandisers from companies. That is virtually gone and if there is a little bit left, it is certainly much reduced.

Can Tesco's representatives give us an idea how they operate long-term agreements? Does Tesco have a practice of asking for end-of-year payments from suppliers under those long-term agreements? They can provide the clerk with a note in answer to those questions afterwards.

The witnesses have been here for a considerable period, so I thank them for their patience and forbearance. It was an interesting exchange and they can see that we are trying to get to the bottom of this matter once and for all. We are raising issues that are coming to us as public representatives. In fairness, the witnesses have been forthright and frank with us. The only thing is that we still do not know what the margins are, but so be it. We feel that matter is important in the context of this review. We will be preparing a detailed and comprehensive report and will furnish the witnesses with a copy in recognition of their co-operation with the joint committee. They were prompt in responding to us, both yesterday and today. We got a response from everybody, bar one. We are pleased that the witnesses found the time to attend this committee and deal with the issues that were raised. If they wish to submit anything to us before our final report, they should feel free to do so.

Top
Share