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Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 2023

Start-up and Scaling Environment in Ireland: Discussion

I remind those present in the committee room to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members participating in the meeting remotely must do so from within the Leinster House complex only, as they are well aware. Apologies have been received from Senator Sherlock.

Today, we will look at the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats in the context of the start-up and scaling environment in Ireland. As a world leader in key innovative sectors, Ireland aims to provide a positive environment in which start-ups can flourish and develop into stable enterprises. Challenges exist, however, regarding the capacity of enterprises to take the initial steps necessary to start up and in respect of growing and scaling up from a small enterprise to a larger one. I am pleased, therefore, that we have the opportunity now to discuss and consider these matters further with representatives from the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, and Scale Ireland. From ISIF, I welcome Mr. Nick Ashmore, director, Dr. Paul Saunders, senior investment director, and Dr. Georgina Murphy, investment director. From Scale Ireland, I welcome Ms Martina Fitzgerald, chief executive, and Mr. Brian Caulfield, director.

Before we start, as always, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence consideration of the matter, I invite Mr. Ashmore to make his opening remarks on behalf of ISIF.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

I thank the committee for inviting us to discuss the start-up and scaling environment in Ireland. I am joined by my colleagues in the ISIF team within the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA. Helping Irish businesses to achieve scale is a major area of focus for ISIF. Our most recently published update shows we have committed in excess of €6 billion on commercial terms across 175 separate investments in Ireland, and scaling indigenous businesses is one of the four key investment themes we pursue, alongside climate, housing and enabling infrastructure, and food and agriculture. Our investments in Ireland to date support an estimated 39,000 jobs, of which half are located outside Dublin.

We are big supporters of SMEs and our investment track record demonstrates this. We want them to succeed. We want them to grow their business at home and to target global markets. We want them to create and sustain more jobs. We support them through seed, venture capital, growth and credit funds and directly. Equally, we want them to use the capital we can offer across the entire spectrum of debt, equity and hybrid forms of investment to achieve their goals and to benefit the wider Irish economy.

We take great pride in the successes in which we have played a role. ISIF was a significant investor in Finance Ireland, which supports a wide range of small businesses and farmers with funding, and Global Shares, a significant regional success story, which was supported by the ISIF-backed Motive Partners and recently sold to J.P. Morgan. These transactions are an excellent example of what we call the “double bottom line” mandate that has been set for us by the Oireachtas, which requires us to invest with the aim of increasing economic activity and employment in Ireland, in addition to generating a commercial return. That commercial return is best illustrated by our cumulative investment gain since inception in 2014. We have generated a gain of just over €2.1 billion on our investment portfolio, the equivalent of a 3.4% return per annum.

I would like to give the committee more information on the new impact investment strategy we announced last summer. In addition to setting out the four key investment themes I referred to, this strategy supports a number of major initiatives relevant to what we are discussing today. We have set out an ambition to invest €500 million in city-specific investment programmes for each of Ireland’s five regional cities: Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Kilkenny. This is a cornerstone of ISIF’s new investment strategy that will result in major investment being targeted to each city in the form of new places to work and live and enabling investments resulting in the regeneration of each of these city centres.

A significant element of this programme is targeting investments in emerging and scaling businesses in each of these cities, together with pursuing other opportunities to support sustainable growth. Our strategy also includes a separate commitment, which we first made in 2021, to invest €1 billion in climate-related investments over a five-year period. We are well on the way to achieving this, with approximately €500 million committed as at the end of February 2023. This aspect of our strategy is looking to fund delivery of sustainable infrastructure in support of Ireland’s 2030 climate targets. We are also looking at new technology and business models that can offer sustainable routes to transforming Ireland’s economy and achieving full decarbonisation with the urgency our shared climate challenge requires, so ISIF will in turn invest in start-up and scaling businesses in the climate arena.

ISIF is a responsible investor and an active asset owner. As a sovereign fund, we seek to play a leadership role across environmental, social and governance, ESG, matters throughout the portfolio. We do this because we know it is right and will build resilient companies with potential to create long-term value.

In implementing our new strategy, I want the committee to know the importance of ISIF’s ability to generate what we call “crowding in” or the catalysing of additional investment into the Irish economy from private sector sources, particularly from international co-investors. Critical to this is a strong focus on partnering or investing with best-in-class fund managers and management teams. ISIF’s success as a catalyst is demonstrated by its portfolio of Irish investments generating a co-investment rate of 1.6 times. That is, across our portfolio, for every €1 million we have invested, we have on average seen private sector crowding in of €1.6 million in additional investment. This means the €6 billion committed to Ireland to date by ISIF has catalysed total investment of more than €15 billion in the Irish economy.

From our experience, international investors attach a lot of importance to ISIF’s involvement when they are considering an investment decision. This has given us a key role as a cornerstone investor in many businesses and projects, with our decision to invest after carrying out our own due diligence often being a significant consideration when other parties are undergoing due diligence of their own.

I will bring my opening remarks to a conclusion with a brief analysis outlining ISIF’s perspective on the start-up and scaling environment. As would be expected, we consider this area to be the North Star of our mandate, one that guides our investment approach as we consider how best we can leverage the taxpayer capital at our disposal for everyone’s benefit. In forming our views on the environment facing SMEs and scale-ups, we have the benefit of the deep experience and corporate memory built up from the 175 separate investments we have made in Ireland, many of which have successfully navigated the leap from being a small domestic player to a company with a material and growing international presence.

The Irish market is well positioned towards start-ups and scale-ups with many strengths. It has a mature ecosystem. The Irish innovation funding landscape is at least 30 years old, and it is now reasonably mature, developed and connected to other markets, with a proven track record that attracts the attention of local and international investors. We have an educated, talented workforce with entrepreneurial skills. Ireland has a great reputation for the quality of its workforce across research and development, manufacturing, regulation, product development, software development and engineering, and for being a great jurisdiction in which to build new tech and life science companies. We have strengths in a number of very attractive sectors, including biotech, medtech, enterprise software, cyber, manufacturing, regulatory technology and others. We also produce great entrepreneurs with drive, ambition and tenacity.

The ecosystem benefits from being joined-up. Participants in the ecosystem, public and private, operate in a cohesive manner to support founders to maximise their potential while all the elements we would expect to see in a functioning ecosystem are present in Ireland: accelerators, angel networks, co-working spaces, innovation hubs, diverse funding sources, repeat entrepreneurship, increasing exit values, a sophisticated investor base and the ready availability of successful founders able and willing to act as mentors. These features all contribute to supporting a vibrant and diverse ecosystem, that itself is well connected with other hubs in Europe and beyond.

It has a global reputation and track record. Ireland’s reputation in key markets like the US is very strong, which is attributable to the diaspora and to the calibre of founders Ireland has been producing who have had success in international markets. Ireland’s reputation for stability, persistent industrial policies and membership of international bodies, like the UN and the EU, also creates a supportive environment for companies to attract investment and compete in international markets. While Ireland is a small country in a global context, it has an ability to create companies of scale in many sectors. Entrepreneurs and investors also have confidence that businesses have access to patient and persistent support from Enterprise Ireland, ISIF and others which can help businesses navigate the global ebb and flow of capital in a manner that works for them.

In terms of weaknesses, the Irish market has to contend with some naturally occurring drawbacks and other features. The small size of our domestic market means internationalising is an early priority for companies.

It is difficult for consumer businesses to grow beyond a certain scale in Ireland and they have to seek new markets if they want to keep growing. A small market is more vulnerable to shocks in a way that larger markets might have greater resilience. One example is the reliance on international investors for larger later stage growth equity rounds which can dry up quickly when capital markets tighten. We are seeing this happen currently. The Irish Venture Capital Association, IVCA, reported in February that overseas investment dropped 73% in quarter 4 last year compared with the same period a year earlier.

Early exits also persist. Ireland has developed a track record, particularly over the past 20 years, of creating new scaling businesses. A strong ecosystem has developed to support the creation of these businesses. However, more often than not, those businesses are often acquired by, or subsumed into, foreign multinationals. While recognising that these transactions can lead to further investment on the ground in Ireland and deepen ties with those multinationals, Ireland’s track record of creating national champions that go beyond a certain point needs to improve.

We also have a shallow domestic investor base. SMEs are very reliant on Enterprise Ireland, ISIF, the European Investment Fund, EIF, and a small number of other limited partners, LPs, for fund formation, which is the critical part of the funding landscape. The small pool of investors in Ireland creates a greater reliance on international capital than is the case in other countries. The relatively small size of the population also means Ireland may not have the depth of management talent and experience needed to support an individual company’s journey.

Moving on to opportunities and threats, even allowing for the strengths and weaknesses of the Irish market, we have a very positive view on the potential for start-ups and scale-ups and we intend to continue being a major commercial backer of these types of businesses. This is particularly true for businesses that can exploit the opportunities we see, such as the specialism that exists in key sectors such as agriculture and food, climate innovation, healthcare, technology, life sciences and financial services. In addition, the success that Ireland has had in attracting and leveraging foreign direct investment, FDI, is unique in an international context and offers considerable spillover benefits. Notwithstanding these opportunities, there are of course threats, not least the risk of talent flight to other jurisdictions as international competition for talent becomes ever more intense or of Irish companies being picked off by overseas acquirers before they can get to a stage where they are major global competitors in their own right. However, these are threats that are capable of being addressed.

The current volatility we are seeing in capital markets and energy markets is an excellent reminder that we can never afford to be complacent, but there is good reason for well-managed businesses that have key competitive advantages to be confident they can continue to grow and scale. We will be here to help as many of them as we can.

The environment for start-ups and scale-ups in Ireland is a lot more vibrant than it used to be but it remains fragile in key aspects. ISIF is well integrated into a diverse group of parties that support companies to start and scale in a very cohesive and complementary manner, both public and private, domestic and international. Through its mandate, networks, track record, reputation, and flexibility, ISIF has a unique ability to help Irish companies unlock the opportunity areas described. As a through-the-cycle investor, we will continue to do so on a consistent basis.

I invite Ms Martina Fitzgerald and Mr. Brian Caulfield to make opening remarks on behalf of Scale Ireland. I welcome Ms Fitzgerald back to Leinster House as I understand she has not been here for a number of years.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

We are delighted to appear before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment at such an important time for the indigenous tech start-up and scaling sector. I was previously here in the Press Gallery looking down on proceedings in the Dáil Chamber. I am now looking across at the members and the vantage point is different but it is good to see some familiar faces and some new ones as well.

I am here as CEO of Scale Ireland which is the independent not-for-profit representative organisation for Irish tech start-ups and scaling companies. Scale Ireland was set up in late 2019 to promote and represent the indigenous tech sector. It has an ambitious mission, which is to create the best conditions for start-ups to thrive and to make Ireland a leading location for innovation and entrepreneurship. We want to ensure Ireland has the right conditions for entrepreneurs to start, grow and scale their businesses globally from here in Ireland and to support the creation of high-quality jobs around the country through increased exports.

There are more than 2,200 indigenous tech start-up and scaling companies in Ireland, with almost 1,000 of these situated outside of Dublin. More than 50,000 people are employed nationwide and for every one job in a start-up, five more indirect jobs are created in the wider community. There has been a significant expansion of the sector since 2017. The number of companies and investors has increased threefold in that time. A large number of companies are located in Galway, Cork and Limerick, with clusters also in Waterford, Kerry, Clare, Kildare and Louth, to name but a few.

The OECD noted in 2019 that Ireland has one of the lowest ratios of exporters to total enterprise numbers in the EU, with only 6.3% of SMEs engaged in exporting activity. However, tech start-ups are export focused from the beginning as the level of early-stage investment for research and product development requires global market returns. This means that many companies do not generate any revenue for several years and operate on a negative cash-flow basis. The majority of these companies will require a mixture of angel investors, including family and friends, State agency and venture capital, VC, investment to bring a product to market. They are viewed as both high risk and high potential by investors given the high failure rate.

Scale Ireland recently published its second national State of Start-ups Survey 2023 in late February. The survey was completed by 248 founders and CEOs. The findings are very important to this committee’s work as they set out the key issues facing leaders in this sector. More than half of the founders surveyed, or 51.6%, considered funding to be their biggest challenge in 2022, up five points on last year, which reflects the challenging investment landscape in the second half of 2022. Despite job losses in the wider sector, the recruitment and retention of staff remained the second biggest issue identified by founders. Some 35% of start-ups found it more difficult to recruit staff in 2022. While 40% of start-ups had lost staff in the last year, 22% of start-ups had let staff go.

We believe further changes are needed to the key employee engagement programme, which is the share options scheme, to ensure it meets its objectives of helping SMEs retain and attract staff. While we welcome changes made in the budget last year, the low uptake of the scheme suggests more work is needed. This, however, reflects a broader issue relating to the take-up of State schemes and supports. Some 83% of respondents to our survey are not availing of the key employee engagement programme, KEEP, scheme, despite it being specifically set up to facilitate the sector. Some 73% of those who availed or looked at availing of the employment investment incentive scheme, EIIS, which is geared at incentivising more private investment into start-ups, found the process difficult or not easy. Almost half of respondents found the research and development tax credit scheme complicated with two thirds not availing of the credit. This is similar to the numbers in 2021. This scheme, which provides a refundable credit for research and development activity against corporation taxes, is critically important for our companies and also requires further changes to deliver the benefit of the credit more speedily.

Overall, these schemes not reaching their full potential. This view is broadly supported by the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and the Government’s White Paper on enterprise. We believe it is imperative that Revenue engages with the sector to look at ways to alleviate the administrative burden on these companies trying to avail of these schemes, while obviously maintaining the necessary safeguards for the Exchequer. Otherwise, any changes to these schemes will not have the intended consequence of benefiting these companies. The cost of doing business was also identified by 12% of founders who completed our survey as their biggest issue. This figure was up three points on last year with almost two thirds of founders saying inflation or cost-of-living issues had impacted their businesses.

The issues facing start-up and scaling companies are clear. The chair of Scale Ireland, Mr. Brian Caulfield, will contribute for the remainder of our time.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

I have spent almost 30 years in this sector, as a founder, investor and mentor for start-ups. I co-founded Scale Ireland to ensure the community had an organisation to support, promote and represent it as the issues facing the sector are very different from the general SME sector, as Ms Fitzgerald outlined. The indigenous tech sector is also a highly diverse sector with companies operating in enterprise solutions, fintech, e-commerce, medtech, cleantech and agtech, among others.

Scale Ireland has welcomed a number of significant policy discussions on the sector in recent years. All recognise that tech innovation will be an important driver of our economic growth and resilience. We strongly welcome the targets set for our sector in the Government's White Paper on enterprise. These targets include a 50% increase in the number of large Irish exporting companies by 2030 and a 20% increase in the number of high-potential start-ups by 2024.

It is not surprising, given the challenging investment landscape internationally, that the most significant issue facing startups is securing finance. Scale Ireland is working with its sectoral partners in the Alliance for Innovation to make further proposals to address this deficit.

Scale Ireland supports and acknowledges the considerable investment of public money through Enterprise Ireland and ISIF, as well as State support for regional enterprise hubs and innovation in the third-level sector. We also support the major European initiatives to support startups, including the European Commission's startup nations standard. These initiatives acknowledge the increasing role of tech startups in scaling companies to the future of Europe and they also set out roadmaps on how to achieve this in terms of best practice regarding setting up a business, finance, visas, share options, red tape, diversity, regulation and supporting enterprise in our regions and in our third-level institutions.

Ireland performs reasonably well in international comparison surveys, though there is increased competition in this sector across the EU and globally, which suggests there is no room for complacency. We also welcome the new €90 million Irish Innovation Seed Fund, IISF, programme, supported by Enterprise Ireland, the European Investment Bank, EIB, and ISIF. Enterprise Ireland's new Pre-Seed Start Fund has also been widely welcomed by the sector. We believe it will play an important role supporting early-stage startups. The employment investment incentive scheme is another important source of scaling in capital. However, the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare has detailed the complexity of this scheme. We believe further changes are needed, such as the introduction of capital gains tax, CGT, loss relief and changes to the limits and periods of qualifying investments that would make it more attractive to investors. We face strong competition from the UK here.

There is also a lack of funding in the €3 million to €10 million space for scaling companies. We will make proposals in advance of the budget on this. The report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare also makes a number of interesting proposals around the entrepreneur relief, specifically with regard to making it available to a wider pool of investors, including individual investors. The White Paper contains a commitment to a wider review of CGT and we look forward to participating in that review. Separately, Scale Ireland has also proposed a new tax credit-type scheme to incentivise companies to hire people who have lost their jobs recently. We believe there is an opportunity to help these workers to continue to make a valuable contribution to Ireland's economic success and there is considerable merit in assisting those who have been impacted by the recent redundancy announcements to direct their skills and experiences into the indigenous tech startup sector.

Finally, our recent survey suggested almost 70% of startups do not have a sustainability plan, and we have consistently sought to address this. Sustainability is becoming an increasingly important metric for investors and indeed climate tech is one of the fastest growing sectors. We are currently working on new proposals to address this.

Ms Fitzgerald and I look forward to discussing these important issues with the committee. We again thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to meet with it today.

I will now invite members to discuss the issues with the representatives. I remind members who are participating remotely to use the raise hand function and, importantly, to cancel it when they are finished speaking. The first member is Deputy O'Reilly, who has 14 minutes.

The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for the information they have provided. I have a couple of questions. If I run out of time we will get a chance to discuss them on the second round. If we miss out on anything, we will get a chance to catch up.

I want to ask about the innovation hubs, which I am particularly interested in. I want to get a sense of their contribution to the development of the SME base in the first instance, but specifically in the digital and green sectors. How are they are performing in real terms? How are they doing? Has consideration been given to, or do any of the witnesses have a view on, the potential for cross-Border co-operation between, for example, Sligo and Derry, which would be a very obvious example, or Donegal and Derry? I am asking how they are doing. I think they are great idea, but how are they actually performing and is there scope for further development there?

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

Mr. Caulfield will speak about the hubs and I will speak about the cross-Border issue.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

Regarding the hubs, one of the most important things to understand is you cannot always decide where a hub or cluster will start. It is incredibly important to ensure there is an appropriate process to identify emerging clusters from the data, rather than seeking to create those clusters. It is clear that there are some extremely successful clusters. I am thinking of Galway, for example, where a really impressive medtech cluster is emerging. That also highlights the value foreign direct investment, FDI, brings to the wider ecosystem over time.

That is an interesting point, because I have discussed this issue with SMEs and they say it can be quite hard to get into FDI. The view that was expressed to me is that SMEs see themselves as part of the FDI ecosystem, but FDI does not really notice them. They find it hard to get in. Once they are in, all available information suggests it can work quite well. However, it sometimes feels as though SMEs are small and are circling around a large entity. Once they are in it is great, but it is a matter of getting in. Is Mr. Caulfield experiencing that it works when there is FDI, but it is hard to get in?

Mr. Brian Caulfield

Yes. First, for many smaller companies, they see FDI primarily as competition for talent, as much as anything else.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

However, I think Galway is a great demonstration of the skills development impact that FDI potentially has. For example, there are a number of very prominent people in the startup ecosystem now who cut their teeth in senior roles in FDI companies. We did recently meet with IDA Ireland, and one of the topics for the discussion was how we could strengthen the links between FDI and early-stage startup companies. There is definitely momentum behind that conversation at the moment.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

On the point that Mr. Caulfield just made, all the European reports and initiatives stipulate they want to see closer collaboration between the bigger companies and indigenous ones because they are both selling to each other. They can also gain the expertise and mentoring from those bigger companies.

With regard to cross-Border co-operation, we as an organisation work very closely with InterTradeIreland, for instance. Our International Women's Day event was co-supported by Enterprise Ireland, InterTradeIreland and Deloitte and was to promote greater numbers of female founders and support for women working in the sector. Ormeau Baths in Belfast is part of the Irish Tech Hub Network, ITHN, with Dogpatch Labs, PorterShed, RDI Hub and Republic of Work in Cork. All those regional hubs are working together and Belfast is included in that.

Does Ms Fitzgerald think there is an opportunity to expand this? If she is saying it is working well cross-Border, that is good to hear. However, the opportunity exists for further expansion.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

That is why we promote our events as all-island events, including the latest one, which was on International Women's Day.

It is the way of future, if we take the politics out of it and speak practically.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

Yes, it makes sense.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

It is also worth mentioning that TechIreland maintains an all-island database of innovation in Ireland that covers both North and South.

That is a valuable resource for us.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

Certainly, in terms of the investment landscape, there is much existing collaboration and co-operation but also potential. Industry in Ireland plays a very important role, and it certainly has an active role in supporting the venture ecosystem. We have a number of investments made with UK-based venture capital firms that are active across the British Isles and in the North but also in the South. A good example of that is BGF. We have now an Irish outpost of what was originally called the British Growth Fund, which focuses on that long-term investment into growing companies. It is sort of a €3 million to €10 million space. Its Dublin operation is now growing substantially but it is active in the North as well as its UK operations. The Irish operation can benefit from the larger operation in the UK and the leveraging of expertise and sectoral specialty with a focus on sustainable investments and things like that. It is, therefore, a broader ecosystem. The hazards of Brexit aside, the venture ecosystem is actually much more collaborative across Europe anyway. Those questions and answers are not as important in that respect

I like that expression, "the hazards of Brexit aside". It is one very small sentence, but it is a very big proposition.

I will ask Mr. Ashmore about funding and the role of that State. We know there are funding challenges, and the State obviously has a role to bridge those. Can I hear a little bit more about that? Where the State takes a risk to invest public money, private capital then follows. In his submission, Mr. Ashmore spoke about catalysing that investment. Will he tell us a little bit more about that? At what point is confidence form the private sector established? I know there is not necessarily a point on a map or whatever, but how does that work? Where are the successes? Where has it worked well? Will Mr. Ashmore list where it performed best? That relationship is important in terms of the role of giving confidence before the private sector will come in. Where are the success stories coming out of that?

Mr. Nick Ashmore

That success has been built up over a very long time. The original Enterprise Ireland seed and venture capital scheme happened in the early 1990s. For a long time, the Irish market was very much a domestic venture capital market with the occasional international fund coming in. Really, what Enterprise Ireland did was give confidence to other investors to invest in those domestic venture capital firms. From about 2010 onwards, however, ISIF's predecessor, the National Pensions Reserve Fund, alongside Enterprise Ireland, worked to start bringing international investors into the Irish market. We have continued to pursue that model ever since. We have a mix of strong domestic venture managers whom we back, often alongside Enterprise Ireland. Enterprise Ireland might come in first and then we might come in last in terms of the investors, or sometimes it is the other way around and we get in before Enterprise Ireland does. Between us, we are often able to provide a sense of quality around that manager that also helps them to attract funding from the European Investment Fund but then also from other limited partners, which are investors in venture funds.

In terms of the international context, international managers can often have an easier time raising funds. However, they may not wish to spend, or it may not be the first choice to spend, time in the Irish market. That is where we are able to seek out the best managers whom we can persuade to work with us. They are generally pretty high-quality managers. ISIF is seen as an attractive and long-term partner for those partners. We then do an investment with that fund on the basis that they will invest either at least as much as we have invested in the fund or more into the Irish market, but also, crucially, that they spend time or have a presence in the Irish market and become part of the ecosystem. That is, therefore, a really important element. We can have funds, but if we do not have an ecosystem, we do not have a market.

In Mr. Ashmore's opinion, is there is potential to expand the ecosystem? Is it working well at the minute?

Mr. Nick Ashmore

It has come a long way in the past ten or 12 years for sure. The ecosystem is a bit of an intangible thing. It is everything from the buzz in the market with events and excitement around exits and things happening to people wanting to become entrepreneurs through to State supports, both soft supports and financing supports, to the activities of groups like Scale Ireland contributing and driving the development of that ecosystem. All those things must come together to create the right environment for companies to grow and scale.

I thank Mr. Ashmore. I probably will need the second round of questioning. With regard to the White Paper, however, there is a recognition in it that we have a long tail of low productivity and that there can be a long lead-in time. What can be done to help the sector increase productivity? Is it the case we need more digitisation? Is it different types of investment or better technology? Is there a gap in terms of the digital divide? What will be needed to spark that expansion?

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

With regard to the question about the White Paper, it did set Ireland out as an innovation leader and that is the aim. It also drew on many of the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and pointed to the low level of research and development activity in the SME sector and the low level of research and development spending in Ireland in comparison. We are below the EU average. In that regard, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare made certain recommendations that, basically, some of the supports that are in place, and this is a key theme and issue which the Deputy may have seen from our speech, are just not reaching their full scope or potential. There is huge complexity to navigate and go through the process, and the research and development tax credit is one of those. The commission report actually made several recommendations. To be fair, the White Paper backed up that the sector needs to look at all of these schemes because they are not reaching their end ambition.

Does Ms Fitzgerald think there is a role for the clusters in terms of increasing the research, development and innovation capacity? Is that something they can do? It may be an individual issue. There is an issue in terms of investment in research, development and innovation. Part of that is nervousness on behalf of SMEs and micro businesses. Some of that could be a cultural thing as well; we do not know. In terms of clustering, however, does Ms Fitzgerald get the sense from the clusters that when research, development and innovation come together, they will be less hesitant to make that investment?

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

I will share this question with Mr. Caulfield. One of the key pillars of the White Paper, however, is the promotion of set clusters around the country, which have yet to be identified. Obviously, we would support that. As Mr. Caulfield said, there are already clusters that have emerged organically like the medical technology sector in Galway. Would Mr. Caulfield like to pick up on that theme?

Mr. Brian Caulfield

The clusters potentially have a very important role to play. First, they breed ambition, if you like, and they tend to deliver a very high level of peer learning, which is incredibly important in the sector. The ability of people to learn from others within the sector is very valuable. The clusters certainly have an important role to play in the continuing development of the ecosystem.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

Certainly, it is the emergence of clusters but also the key central hubs around which they are often working. Galway has the PorterShed, which is a fantastic acceleration space and shared working space. A good example of support for innovation is that a leading London intellectual property law firm has based a small team in the PorterShed in Galway. They work for clients all over the world, but they are available pro bono to the companies that are in that space. That kind of support can be dramatic in terms of giving access to companies that would otherwise have to go to London to find that expertise. It may not even be available in Dublin.

The question is about how we engineer that. Some of it, such as the medical technology sector, just happened organically. The question is really whether we can - "force" is probably the wrong word - encourage it.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

To go into the wider productivity challenge, much of that is embedded in the long tail of SMEs. The SMEs around the country that provide 60% of employment are not necessarily in the tech or med tech sector. They are doing everything from food services and wholesale operations to distribution. The scope there for digitisation is enormous. It is naturally happening, however.

Prior to this role, I was working with the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland. We had a very successful loan scheme called the future growth loan scheme, which was a long-term funding programme with all of that used for investing in those types of activities and improvements. As I understand, there is a new scheme on the way. The appetite is there among those companies. One area of opportunity is maybe a stronger connection from the wider indigenous SME base into those clusters to get access to and learn from some of that innovation.

I welcome the witnesses. In 2014, I had the privilege of publishing what I think was Ireland's first entrepreneurship strategy. The ambition was to make entrepreneurship and national ambition a core part of what we sought to be. Everything that has happened since underlines the importance of such an approach.

As I recall, even in the most dismal period, during the five years of the deepest crash, we still had 12,000 start-ups each year. Without them, there would have been 100,000 more jobs lost in that difficult period. The importance of start-ups cannot be underestimated. At that time, two thirds of new jobs in the Irish economy came from start-ups in the first five years of their existence. I suspect that has not changed much since. It is important to emphasise the importance of this.

If they were starting out today, would the Collison brothers still have to leave Ireland to set up Stripe? Would it be possible to see a company of that ambition start in Ireland today? What are the factors that influence the exit choice? Perhaps Mr. Ashmore has examples of companies that got away, that we would have liked to have retained. What ingredients were missing in those cases?

Regarding the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, is there anything for us to learn from the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, SVB? I know it was gaming in the bonds market rather than start-ups that seems to have killed it but it will presumably put a bit of a cloud over the start-up environment in the US. Do we need to think about what that entails?

I am interested to hear what the opinion of the witnesses from Scale Ireland on the impact of Knowledge Transfer Ireland, which was one of the innovations that tried to build a bridge between our research community, all of which, pretty much, is now in universities, and start-ups. Has that lived up to its promise?

For the witnesses from ISIF, we are making massive investment in broadband and the idea is to reach into every community even very rural areas. Should we be looking at specific funds to exploit that asset to spawn start-ups? It would be a big gamble. No other European country is doing it. Should we have a dedicated fund and a strategy for it?

My last question is in relation to those who are not "gazelles". Of its type, that is, a State body dedicated to encouraging business, Enterprise Ireland is probably one of the biggest investors in start-ups in the world. However, what about the non "gazelles", the businesses that are not going to become the Stripes of the future? What is the environment like for them?

Dr. Brian Caulfield

There are a few issues there so I will try to cover them briefly. I think Knowledge Transfer Ireland is a positive initiative. However, we still have a distance to travel in facilitating the commercialisation of research coming from our third level sector. There are definitely improvements that could be made to the process.

Without wishing to be critical, it is probably fair to say that the technology transfer system within the universities tends to operate, in some cases, at a relatively slow pace, which is not necessarily compatible with the needs of industry. I would also suggest that sometimes for technology transfer, the emphasis is more on protection of the intellectual property, IP, rather than ensuring that the IP is exploited, which is what will ultimately generate benefits for the country.

Stripe is a fantastic success story and it demonstrates that there is no lack of capability or ambition in Irish people. It is much more likely that such a company could be built from Ireland today than might have been the case historically. However, we need to remember that as a company like Stripe scales, it must inevitably be present in its customer markets and Ireland is a very small customer market. In addition, in terms of access to capital, it is clearly questionable whether Stripe would have been able to raise the vast amounts of capital it has raised if it had had to depend on the Irish market. Inevitably, as a company raises money from foreign markets, that creates a pull to locate in those markets.

What concerns me most about SVB is that a narrative may emerge that it failed because it invested in tech and that tech is risky. That is simply not the case. SVB failed because of some very bad banking risk management decisions. It would be problematic were such a narrative to emerge. SVB has been a fantastic partner for the ecosystem over the years. It is very important to plug that gap.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

Deputy Bruton made reference to those companies that are not the Stripes of this world. I will give an example of such a company. It might not gain a lot of venture capital funding but it is making an important contribution to society. The company is called Gabadoo. Based in Limerick, it is an early-stage start-up which attended our regional start-up summit in Galway. Through its technology, the company links clinical therapists to parents. What it is doing in its community and across the country is really valuable. It may not ever knock on ISIF's door or get funding through venture capital but it will get funding through other means, perhaps State agencies. It is providing a very important service to the communities and parents it works with. It is a socially impactful enterprise. Sometimes we think only of enterprise solutions but there are many entrepreneurs who are also working in that space and their decision to offer solutions to help people in different ways is also important.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

Stripe is an outlier and an astonishing company. The fact that it has situated its second headquarters globally here in Ireland is a very strong endorsement of the Irish ecosystem and the opportunity and talent that are available here. Stripe is a key partner with us and we have made an investment with the company. We are finding that to be a very value added relationship in terms of other areas that we are working on, whether it is supporting the innovation ecosystem or looking at different types of climate investing.

The emergence of what we call unicorns, companies with valuations north of €1 billion, has been very strong in Ireland over the last two or three years. We are not at the level, given the size of the economy, of the UK, but certainly across Europe we are pretty competitive.

Wayflyer is a good example of a company that is in a similar adjacent space to Stripe and works with Stripe. Wayflyer has grown enormously quickly and been able to tap into talent and access the resources it has needed to grow very quickly. Wayflyer will continue to be a support for other tech-style ops as well because it provides funding to businesses that are selling online. We see these companies emerging but, to Mr. Caulfield's point, we are not in the same ecosystem as, say, Silicon Valley had ten years ago. We are closer to that now but there are fundamental differences.

On the lessons learned from the collapse of SVB, it is an apposite lesson for any sector not to be reliant on one institution. Certainly that is a hard lesson the US tech scene is experiencing right now, and it will place a cloud over venture capital and tech in the US for the next period. However, it has proven to be a very resilient business over time and there are always new innovations coming through. The excitement around artificial intelligence at the moment is very tangible evidence of that, despite all the other dysfunction going on around it, there is a huge wave of new investment coming into that area given the new opportunities that are emerging.

SVB is an important lender in the Irish market, with the vast majority of it coming out of London, partly through the partnership that we have had as ISIF with SVB over the past ten years. The good news is that that business has been sold and passed over to HSBC. We are hopeful and engaging with HSBC to see where it is going to go from here with that business. That lending capacity has not been lost to the Irish market, which is solid news. Also, we have not seen Irish tech companies as reliant on SVB for banking services in terms of current account, deposit accounts, trading and other things. They are much more tapped into the Irish banking infrastructure.

I will pass over to Dr. Saunders to talk about the choice of exits and what drives those.

Dr. Paul Saunders

Mr. Caulfield has touched on a number of fundamental points. On capital allocation, as the funding rounds get bigger and bigger, the eyes of the founder of the company and the early series A and B investors get drawn into other markets, and the pull of capital into markets like the US can be quite a strong influence. One of the things we as a fund are constantly thinking through is whether we can go the extra round in a really successful company to keep it anchored in Ireland, even for a little bit longer than they may ordinarily be present in the market, just to make sure that successful Irish companies, even if they do go to other markets, which inevitably they will have to, often because the market size in Ireland is just not sufficient, still develop roots in Ireland and we, as a sovereign fund, can help them anchor. The capital availability piece is really important.

The other factor can often be development talent. As a company scales, the challenges expand quite rapidly and it needs access to a broad and deep pool of talent. Certainly the US can be quite a strong pull from that perspective, although we do see some reversal of that trend now because the price of labour has just become so high. On the west coast of the US, we see a lot of these companies looking back to Europe to expand and develop their engineering footprint and so on. Capital, the market and the talent are all factors and they are all areas we as a fund and a broader ecosystem constantly think quite hard about how we can improve the appeal and attractiveness of Ireland to keep the companies here for as long as possible.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

We have been shifting the focus of some of our venture capital fund investment activity away from the US and towards Europe, specifically in the life science space. I ask Dr. Murphy to comment on that.

Will the witnesses comment on the other specific initiatives that we, as a committee, or Government Inc., could promote that would improve the chances of all of this happening?

Mr. Nick Ashmore

An emphasis and a position around the value the Government places on seeing Irish businesses go beyond getting to a certain scale and selling out and ambitions around that would really help. Saying we really want to see this happen, that we want to see strong Irish businesses emerging and we are very supportive of that would help psychologically in the market that that support would continue for entrepreneurs and they would not be under such pressure to sell out or sell the business. The location of investors is important as well. A US-dominated group of investors in a business will pull that business towards the US whereas we are now seeing emerging mergers in Europe.

Dr. Georgina Murphy

We are certainly making a very concerted effort to ensure our portfolio of investors, the venture capital investors, from seed through to the venture growth stage, is well balanced from the US and Europe. There is a number of mainland European investors that are increasingly active in the Irish market, in part because of their strategic partnerships with ISIF, and can come in to invest in these companies and serve as a counterbalance to the growth of these businesses.

Historically, we have seen the pace of exits can have a positive impact on the ecosystem in terms of a recycling of capital and talent. We now have a growing pool of repeat entrepreneurs who are very experienced in establishing and scaling deep tech companies but maybe have an ambition now to build a more sustainable business rather than take an early exit. To speak to Mr. Ashmore's point, it is about capitalising on that and ensuring we can invest in a flexible way by both partnering private investors but also, potentially, stepping in and being an active investor in some of these businesses if they choose not to take an early exit and try to scale. Certainly, on the life sciences side, we are seeing the start of that with companies like LetsGetChecked. The company has done a really good job of tapping into the vast US healthcare market as a key market for international growth while keeping a focus on employment in Ireland and leveraging the quality of talent here for manufacturing and product development.

I thank the delegations for coming in. It is great to get a broad outline of where we are probably going and the steps the Government has been taking to try to look at providing investment in the broad economic sector.

I am somebody who has experience. I was involved in two health business services. The first thing I would say is that it is incredibly difficult to build any business, even an SME business, but to take it beyond you need to have so many competitive factors and be able to sustain them to grow and to scale. Among the difficulties which have been highlighted in terms of the start documents are our taxation regime, the supports, and that how we deal with entrepreneurs does not really help. When you develop a business idea and get it to a certain point, there is the valley of death, as it is called, and the risk is the ability to scale, to take on investment partners, to be able to defend your markets, to be able to continue to be innovative and to protect your intellectual property, IP. These are all the problems and what happens is, investors, particularly the early stage people and oftentimes the entrepreneurs, will take the position, as the witnesses know, either to join forces and merge, where they will be diluted, essentially, although they hope they will get something out of it, or they sell. We have this problem in Ireland of sale or scale. I know the Department of Finance, and probably even the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, have not treated entrepreneurs properly in this country over the years in terms of supporting them at the very early stage and providing them with the expertise to allow them survive long enough in the marketplace to gain traction and go.

I am engaging with two companies that have a very good opportunity to go into international markets. The opportunities exist but the difficulties are immense in terms of time, money and expertise. One of these companies needs significant expertise to try to get into the retail markets across Europe, and the question is who can provide it with that. We are trying to find those people in Ireland and that is very difficult. That is just one simple area where we could help people.

I have a particular interest in ISIF and its team because it is potentially taking investments in Waterford allied to the new South East Technological University.

We obviously want to see that happen but there has been talk of it and the position on the funding for two years. It is hard to get Government delivery on these things. These issues need to be broadcast and it needs to be shown how the ecosystem can be developed.

Could I go back to the start? Based on what the reports have stated about the significant proposals being made, could the representatives speak about the release they are advocating for entrepreneurs?

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

I will make separate comments on the various schemes. Fair dues to the Deputy for being an entrepreneur in this and supporting entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is difficult and many entrepreneurs take risks. Everything from their mortgage applications to their creditworthiness is affected if things go wrong. We understand that.

Let me refer to some of the key issues we are considering. First and foremost, we believe this committee could play a role. Numerous reports state there is a problem with the various schemes. The complexity, difficulty and need for external advisers are factors. We have had consultations with representatives of the Government, which we welcomed, but even the external advisers were saying those concerned should not be coming to them. They are coming for a second round of advice and, therefore, perhaps there is a role for this committee. We support the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and also the White Paper's recommendation that the Revenue Commissioners engage positively and examine how to make all the supports intended to help startups and scaling companies work for them, or even put the companies in a position to apply for them. The employment investment incentive scheme is really important at the moment because it incentivises private investment in startups and scaling companies. The guidance document is 107 pages long. If a startup applying to participate in the scheme makes a mistake, the clawback is on it, not the investor. Some of our founders believe it is a choice between growing your market and considering availing of some of the schemes. They do not have time for both.

Just 50-odd companies have availed of the key employee engagement programme, KEEP, a share option scheme, although it is set up to help SMEs to recruit and retain staff. The commission is very strong in saying the scheme is not meeting its full potential and that more work needs to be done on it. It is very supportive of its objectives. We welcome the changes made in the latest budget and the previous ones regarding many such schemes but the problem is their complexity for very small startups and scaling companies.

The third initiative I wish to refer to is the research and development tax credit. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare did a very good job in outlining all the issues with it. At a time our spending is not on par with that of the EU and when the ambition is to become an innovation leader, according to the White Paper, there are concerns about the complexity of the credit. The commission even refers to checklists, guidance, further guidance and examples that the Revenue Commissioners could provide to startups. Maybe there should be a two tier-system or a separate system for small and medium-sized businesses within that. No matter what schemes are being dealt with, it is recognised in the White Paper and by the Commission on Taxation and Welfare that those schemes, however worthy, are not fulfilling their potential or meeting their objectives. Time and again, companies we survey find them very complex. We really hope the committee will have a role in engaging with the Revenue Commissioners and that our sector will liaise with the Revenue Commissioners to consider how to address the matter while still providing robust rules to protect the Exchequer. That would be one of the main issues for us.

Dr. Brian Caulfield

Could I add a couple of points to that? They also speak to Deputy Bruton's point on exits. It is probably fair to say that, in Ireland, the funding companies get initially is very hard to access because we do not have a particularly active angel capital market, for example. Even though we are talking about companies at a very early stage, this has a significant long-term impact because companies can become gun-shy about raising the capital they need to scale themselves if their initial funding rounds have been difficult and highly dilutive. That may well have an impact on the desire of founders to exit early.

Anything we can do to improve the accessibility of early-stage funding will have an impact in the longer term. It is important to understand that companies typically cannot go to the global capital markets for early-stage funding. They are highly reliant on domestic capital. We certainly should not see all exits as negative because, as Dr. Murphy alluded to, entrepreneurs often become repeat entrepreneurs when they exit. They may become an investor in and mentor to other early-stage companies. We should certainly encourage that. However, we should also try to find mechanisms to support entrepreneurs to realise some of their investment in their businesses, or to take some money off the table, and continue to run and develop their businesses in the future. The capital markets, including Euronext Dublin, have a role to play. As things stand, this is underexploited.

On the Deputy's point regarding the availability of skills and the inability to find staff with skills within Ireland, the KEEP share option scheme has an important role in this regard because the taxation of share options has an impact the ability not only to recruit domestically from large companies but also to recruit people with high-quality talent and skills in short supply to come from abroad to live and work in Ireland.

I have a question for Scale Ireland on the recruitment challenges faced by micro-enterprises and SMEs in the tech sector by comparison with companies in the multinational sector. One of the difficulties is that they cannot match the wages or provide the high-octane, fast-paced, charged work environment of the multinationals. Is it a matter of career progression? What are the issues? Is the location a factor? We know there are challenges. What are they?

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

The recruitment and retention of staff has remained the second-biggest issue for our startups year on year, although there have been implications for the wider tech sector, which implications we have seen. Some 35 of our startups are finding it more difficult to recruit and retain staff. They are not just competing against bigger companies here, although the trend in this regard has eased off, unfortunately due to job losses, but they are also competing against staff in other jurisdictions who have more favourable conditions. Those conditions can pertain to a residents share option scheme. It can be a matter of the tax they are liable for. They are competing not just in Ireland against big companies but, to be quite honest and blunt about it, they are also competing against jurisdictions all across the world with different tax treatments. That is why we are trying to consider the KEEP share option scheme as a means of helping the SMEs to recruit and retain staff and also give the workers a share in the companies that could go on to great success. In a way, it is like "workers rights 2023", but there are difficulties with the scheme in that, according to the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, only 50-odd companies have availed of it. At our recent regional startup summit, we found that Aerogen, the biggest Irish medtech company in Ireland, which was set up over a butcher's shop in Galway 25 years ago, employs hundreds and is still growing a new market, is finding it difficult to recruit and retain staff. That is a difficulty, just as it is in the cyber element of our sector.

There are difficulties in various specialties. There are also some companies letting staff off and we do realise this and we have put this on the record. We agree there need to be some changes to the KEEP share option scheme and the extension of it to build on the changes that have already been made. An example is removing the link to salary. If a company cannot compete on salary in the first place why would we link the scheme to the salary of an individual? Some companies cannot compete with what other companies are offering with regard to salary or benefits. With regard to keeping the scheme simple and clear, market valuation is very difficult to work out but it is critical. Some types of companies are excluded, such as financial and insurance technological companies. They are also competing for staff. There are many layers to the issue of the retention and recruitment scheme. We have also come up with a tax credit approach to helping some of those who have lost their jobs in the wider sector.

I want to ask about this. There has been volatility in the tech sector and we have seen this. Volatility is a very nice way of saying that people have being laid off, which is very traumatic. These are very hard-working people with very high skills. Every time there has been an announcement of lay-offs, the Minister and the previous Minister have said there are loads of vacancies in the sector so that people will find their level. I find it hard to agree with the case being made for a tax credit for taking on workers who have been laid off. Companies are not taking a risk on these people because they are already trained and have a work record in the sector. I do not know whether there is an oversupply but there are certainly vacancies and people who have been recently laid off. It is hard to understand why we would need to incentivise people to take on skilled qualified staff in a market where there appears to be a steady pipeline of skilled and qualified staff. I do not mean this disrespectfully to people who are losing their jobs which is very tough. I find it hard to reconcile the two.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

I suppose, to be equally blunt, those jobs may not stay in Ireland. We will face competition from other jurisdictions for those skilled workers. We want them to continue to make a contribution to this economy and make a contribution to our workforce because they are very specialised and skilled workers. We want to keep them in Ireland, particularly in areas where our indigenous tech start-ups are seeking their skill sets.

But that means the jobs will stay. If our indigenous sector is seeking the skills of people who have just been laid off, it naturally flows that those jobs will not go. Is it the jobs or the personnel that Scale Ireland believes will go abroad?

Mr. Brian Caulfield

It is the personnel. Fundamentally Deputy O'Reilly is absolutely right that it is difficult for indigenous companies to compete in terms of overall packages for these staff. A small company cannot provide an in-house gym, canteen, laundry and whatever else. Small companies also struggle even to match salaries. This credit would help to bridge that gap in terms of the overall package and enable us to retain these skills in the country as opposed to people moving to London, Barcelona or wherever it might be.

Similarly with regard to the KEEP share option scheme, as things stand today options in a large US technology company are a very much more attractive proposition and a very much more secure proposition than options in a smaller early-stage Irish start-up. We need to make sure that the risk that people take in terms of reduced income and the risk to their jobs in an early-stage company is rewarded in some way The KEEP share option scheme has the potential to be this.

I thank the witnesses.

I welcome the witnesses and I thank them for their presentations. It is fascinating to listen to what is going on. It is extraordinarily sophisticated, complicated, progressive and quite advanced. There have been great successes. I was looking at the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund's website yesterday. There have been 175 investments to an overall amount of €6 billion. It focuses on climate, housing infrastructure, food and agriculture, and indigenous business. These are the four major elements. We have looked at all of these because they impact on our work here. We have looked at offshore wind, for instance, because of the skill sets involved.

Several weeks ago Chambers Ireland, ISME and the Irish Exporters Association came before the committee. They were very concerned about housing workers and people who want to work in companies. I note that the ISIF is investing in housing. The investments made are all loans and the investment is made for a return. I am interested in quality-of-life issues also. Quality of life has a big bearing on attracting people to live in Ireland. I notice transport is one of the areas the ISIF invests in. Will Mr. Ashmore speak about whether the ISIF has a focus on quality-of-life issues? It is investing in urban regeneration in some areas. When people visit a town, village or city to consider an investment, very often the appearance of the place and how it looks and feels has an impact on whether they want to invest. Will Mr. Ashmore comment on this? It may be slightly off our issue. Many sporting clubs throughout the country are doing great work providing fantastic facilities for young people and not so young people. They are struggling to buy land. I contend that the quality-of-life issue is very important in balancing the attractiveness for people to come here, work here and stay here. Will Mr. Ashmore comment on this? Has the ISIF looked at this? It is probably outside its remit a little.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

It goes to the heart of a number of the questions that have been asked, including Deputy Bruton's question on rural broadband, Deputy Shanahan's question on the regeneration of Waterford and the questions on competition for talent outside of the tax schemes. The importance of regional investment and regional urban regeneration, and the development of funding in tech ecosystems throughout the country, are crucial for all of this. This speaks to many of the challenges we are trying to address with our investment programme. We try to align our strategy to key challenges facing the State, for example, climate or housing. Regional provision of housing is crucial but it is a real challenge in terms of viability at present. With regard to housing investment, our focus is on mass market housing and providing this wherever we can and across all the different types of housing required. We have a shortage in social housing, family homes and rental properties. There are shortages everywhere. We are trying to invest in ways that support the market, bearing in mind that we are a commercial investor.

In terms of urban regeneration, how a place looks and feels is important in attracting talent. Access to broadband is now so much better. I was reading an article yesterday about how small remote working hubs are starting to be centres of economic activity in small towns with people coming together, sharing ideas and starting businesses together.

All that activity is crucial. Equally important for mid-size or growing businesses, is the ability to be able to offer the option to staff of living in areas where there is a lower cost of living and access to a higher quality of life, and the benefits of that quality of life in a rural or regional environment. We have worked hard in Kilkenny on the urban regeneration of the old brewery site. It has been very successful and that building is now up and running, with high quality tenants. It is part of a new city quarter within Kilkenny. We have taken that template and now applied it in Limerick city. We have just kicked off the construction of the Limerick Opera Square project. One Opera Square is part of that overall regeneration of an entire block in Limerick city. It is being undertaken in conjunction with the city council. It will be a highly impactful urban regeneration project. We are in discussions in Waterford concerning two exercises that will result in significant urban regeneration and create space for technology companies to want to work and thrive in.

Can I just jump in because my time is tight. I have gone through the list of many of the companies ISIF has been investing in and it is impressive. Turning to the representatives from Scale Ireland, it was said there is a lack of funding available in the €3 million to €10 million space for scaling companies. Could this point be expanded upon and how this might be resolved?

Mr. Brian Caulfield

I do not want to prejudge what proposals we might make regarding this aspect, but the nature of a smaller market, like Ireland's, is that it is difficult to support large domestic funds that are able to write these larger cheques. Domestic funds, therefore, tend to write cheques of the order of a couple of million euro. It is difficult, however, to go to the international markets unless the company is raising more than €10 million. This is what creates the gaps. ISIF has played an important role here in encouraging international funds with a larger scale of capital available to pay attention to the Irish market, to visit it and to invest time in it. This is the kind of thing we need to continue to encourage.

We were also told Government policy may inadvertently be encouraging the sale of Irish SMEs and that there is an issue with the intergenerational transfer of companies. What is Scale Ireland's experience in this regard?

Mr. Brian Caulfield

I would not really comment on this point, in the sense that most of our member companies tend not to be ones that go through generational transfers. It is the nature of these companies that they will, typically, either become owned by a wider universe of shareholders as they scale up and take on capital or they will perhaps exit somewhere along the line.

I pose that question to Mr. Ashmore as well.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

A wider cohort of Irish SMEs are facing intergenerational change. It is a complex process. It requires four to five years preparation in advance of the transfer taking place. There is a need for the right advisers and financing support. The role of the banks is important and local advisers are crucial. Equally, sometimes there are opportunities during these intergenerational transitions to reinvigorate the growth of these businesses and to move them into new areas. New management teams may have new strategies. We are interested, therefore, in supporting, through our investment funds, those types of transactions. We do have a company, Melior Equity Partners, that is active in managing in that space and it is often able to engineer a transfer of control with a pay out to some of the shareholders. Another manager in this area that we support, MML Capital Partners, has also been very active and gone after the cream of the crop in that cohort of businesses going through generational change. Some investors are interested in this area, therefore, but the number of businesses facing this challenge is far greater than the capacity we have to invest in them.

My final question might be slightly off beam, but I will put it out there anyway because this is coming at us pretty hard and fast. It was pointed out to us that the corporate sustainability reporting and the corporate sustainability due diligence directives are coming at us. One witness told us this would be like Brexit phase 2. It will be a big issue and many companies do not seem to realise this is happening. Are these directives on the radar of ISIF?

Mr. Nick Ashmore

As a sustainable investor, we are conscious of the whole wave of regulation coming in. I ask Dr. Saunders to comment.

Dr. Paul Saunders

Sustainable responsible investment, SRI, has everything to do with our investment decisions now. We look very closely at all the SRI, and environmental, social and governance, ESG, factors. We have now started a process of engaging with not just prospective investments but also with our existing investees to gather the information around their sustainability credentials. For these businesses to be successful in the long term, they must have business models well suited to a net-zero world. We are not just looking at the regulations around this context but at the business fundamentals. We are interrogating teams on their way into an investment and, once we are in an investment, helping them to address the sustainability challenges and build models that are robust in respect of the energy transition and the growing weight of regulations that will be put in place around this. This is particularly with a view to addressing the situation where as companies mature and start to raise further rounds of investment, it will be found that gaining access to capital will become increasingly difficult for those companies not ahead of the curve when it comes to sustainability. This is therefore a core focus for us.

The due diligence directive talks about human rights issues, which is a separate type of thing.

On the recruitment of staff, this is an issue that comes up again and again when we meet the representatives of companies and various agencies. Many people are facing difficulty with this aspect. I keep saying that I am involved in the Open Doors Initiative. The witnesses may not be aware of it. It involves working with people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds, have disabilities, etc. We had a very interesting meeting dealing with people with disabilities trying to gain employment and the barriers involved in doing so. I just alert the witnesses to this type of ongoing work. Perhaps the witnesses might like to comment on it because it is an area where if people get extra help and support it can be of huge benefit. I refer to diversity and inclusion.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

The area of ESG in general and sustainability in particular is a key concern for us. As Dr. Saunders pointed out, it will become increasingly difficult for companies to raise external capital if they do not have an ESG plan which covers not just sustainability but also issues in respect of diversity and inclusion. We have a sustainability working group but it is a concern for us that only a small percentage of companies have such a plan in place now. We must encourage them to do so.

Ms Martina Fitzgerald

To add to that, we are working with Enterprise Ireland in relation to this topic. It has a new sustainability division and we meet regularly with its representatives to see how we can increase the number of start-ups with a sustainability plan. We accept that more work needs to be done in this area.

I thank Deputy Stanton. I call Deputy Shanahan.

I thank our guests. On scale, and I am not sure if this is being done already or if there are plans to do so, I refer to providing a kind of driver's manual of how to set up a company. Many SMEs take the approach where they first set up a small limited company. Down the line then, the way the company is incorporated becomes a barrier to trying to sort out bringing in additional investment. I refer to the employment and investment incentive scheme, EIIS, and whether this aspect is being examined and if there is a dashboard for it. This advice is needed by early-stage companies.

Regarding companies in a position where they have intellectual property, IP, generated, the best way to try to protect it may be patenting. The problem they run into here very early on is that the patent costs start to get legs. It is hard sometimes because if the patents are very robust, investors may decide to get in and seek ownership of them as security for putting in investment funds. How companies should be supported in this context should be examined. My experience is that the patent costs especially are seen as a kind of a dirty cost in terms of a business and nobody wants to pay for them. However, they are part of IP protection.

I am aware of the projects the witnesses from ISIF referred to in Waterford. We are very grateful for where this may lead us. Hopefully, ISIF will stay well engaged and active in this regard. On the planned offshore wind development signalled to be developed off the south coast, and especially that off the coast of County Waterford and east Cork, does the ISIF have plans to intersect with some of the businesses that might have to provide services and infrastructure? Is this aspect being explored? Does it have any plans in respect of trying to provide roadmaps as to how we might use the excess electricity that may be generated? I refer in particular to a hydrogen strategy.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

I think we very actively contribute to exercises like the preparation of roadmaps but it is not for us to lay out a roadmap. We can talk about areas we will invest in. I will let Dr. Saunders, who specialises in this area, speak to it.

Dr. Paul Saunders

We absolutely see offshore wind and all the supporting infrastructure as a key area for Ireland and, therefore, for investment from ISIF. We are looking at the projects themselves and speaking with developers who may be developing the actual offshore wind assets. We are also speaking with the whole system. We acknowledge the port infrastructure needs significant development, so we have a team that is dedicated to real assets and enabling infrastructure. It is speaking with ports around the country to try to figure out what investment makes sense there. This is an area that is very well suited to ISIF capital because we can be strategic and long term. That is the kind of capital that much of this enabling infrastructure needs when we think about ports, etc.

There is a much broader value chain, as well. Vessels, crew transfer vessels and various other support and service functions will be required both during the construction phase and the operation phase of these businesses. All of that is well within the scope of ISIF investment, notwithstanding the fact that we always need to be cognisant that we are not deadweight. We need to target areas where we can be catalytic of the economic activity and we can accelerate the transition without wading into areas where a lot of capital is already available. That influences the way we think about our potential involvement in the phase 1 projects versus some of the later phases of offshore development.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

On the idea of a driver's manual, Scale Ireland is a relatively small organisation that is quite lightly resourced. We do not generally advise the individual companies but rather are focused on representation. However, this is an area where many of the hubs are already very active with programmes to help companies to become investor-ready and make sure they are thinking about the longer term funding journey that a company has to go through. It is also an area where many of the colleges, through their innovation hubs, are active. That is obviously very positive.

On the general area of patenting costs, it is fair to say this is an area where many Irish companies are weak in terms of their IP strategy. Sometimes there is perhaps an overemphasis on patents when that may not even be the correct IP strategy in some cases. There is a case to be made for more support from Government to enable companies to define an appropriate IP strategy for the business they are in at an early stage.

That is a very good point and one the committee should take on board. Mr. Caulfield is absolutely right. The IP strategy and patents provide protection but having a good business model and product can be a good defender in itself because branding can be built around that and people will come to understand its uniqueness and how to possibly defend it.

I am very interested in the potential of the circular and sustainable economy as well as the potential transformation that broadband can bring. My question is whether the structures we have are too siloed to plan for the opportunities that are only gradually coming onto the map. It seems to me we are facing a transformational change that will happen very quickly in terms of completely reassessing the way we do our business. Every supply chain will be impacted by a very dramatic change. Are the start-up opportunities being thought through? For example, in construction, if we are to recover waste from sites, we will need to have passporting and a data market to create that space. We will have to try to source people who may use it. It seems there is potential for high-potential start-ups in managing that.

Food Cloud, a company with which the witnesses are probably familiar, has scaled. Fortunately, because it had a good alliance with one of the international chains of supermarkets, it has been able to scale what it is doing. These are the things that are coming our way. Who is thinking about where the opportunities are here? Are there people in our universities who could be looking at the recycling of these construction materials, their data requirements and how to create and sustain markets? Similarly, one could go right through the supply chain to have that.

It worries me that we are all talking about this transformational change but I am not sure who is seeing the opportunities that everyone talks about and who is developing whatever it will take to underpin them. This will not just be a matter of capital but will be a series of things. Are we too siloed, given that Enterprise Ireland is looking at high-potential start-ups for exporting that are predominately in the tech area, etc., when ISIF is looking at the next stage? My slight worry is that we are missing a beat here.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

Innovation, along with climate, permeates all the areas we invest in. We have a specific team for the food and agri area. Much of the work it is doing is bringing in specialist venture firms that look at food and agriculture, sustainable food systems, what the future of food production will look like, how we decarbonise that sector and how we tap into the opportunity globally. The world will need 50% more food than it produces right now in future years but will need to produce that with a fraction of the current carbon footprint. The opportunity and necessity for innovation in that space are enormous.

The Deputy's point about construction waste is one particular element but there are lots of those. That is one of hundreds of areas. Certainly, in terms of housing, our real assets team is looking at modern methods of construction. It is also conscious of the regulations that will be coming down the line in 2027 and beyond around managing carbon through the life cycle of a building, whether that is construction waste, embedded carbon or the retrofitting of buildings. We are starting to think about adjusting our strategy to get ahead of that because we know projects will take a long time. If we are to have buildings that we have invested in that are marketable beyond that period, they will have to be sustainable. Part of the issue is that we are looking for specialised investors, whether it is in the area of climate innovation, food and agriculture innovation or construction innovation. If we can find investors that will support and specialise in those areas, we will try to bring them into the market and curate them.

On the point about broadband, for me, broadband is just essential underlying infrastructure. A dedicated fund is probably not the right approach, because it is so wide and so beneficial for so many sectors that there will be no common theme that an investor could get their head around to specialise in. It will have an enormous impact on the regional economy but the ecosystems we are developing with the innovation hubs and the activities of the likes of the Western Development Commission which is a very active investor up and down the west coast will see that benefit derived very strongly.

On the issue of the challenges of the next generation of innovation requirements, ultimately, it is very hard for an entity like Enterprise Ireland or for us to continuously have the next specialism. It is the right approach to have a broad-based approach that can be adjusted and flexed to the next generation of innovation that is coming through. We will evolve the managers we work with. We would love to work with more deep-tech managers right now. We are getting much more into the seed space with the IISF, in conjunction with EI and the EIF. Also more broadly, we are looking at other seed funds outside that programme. Again, there are opportunities to back people who are specialising in sustainable start-ups or food start-ups in other areas.

Mr. Brian Caulfield

If I could add to that, I will not speak about broadband because Mr. Ashmore has covered it very well but it is, as it were, a kind of electricity and we need to think of it as something that is readily available and of very high quality everywhere.

In relation to the opportunities presented by sustainability, I am perhaps more optimistic than Deputy Bruton might be.

There is already a lot of activity in the universities in terms of research in a very wide variety of areas. There are also lots of very small start-ups that are looking at very specific niches within the area. We are starting to see the evolution of that category of specialist investors who are focused exclusively on environmental impact or agricultural technology - ag tech. We have the Yield Lab, which is focused on agricultural technology, and Resolve Partners, which focuses on climate change and sustainability.

Connections between large companies and small companies in this space will be very important. Bord na Móna has essentially been running an accelerator in conjunction with Resolve Partners to help companies with sustainability products and accelerate their development. Those kind of linkages will be more important in this space than in others.

Mr. Nick Ashmore

There is a very important role for the universities and Science Foundation Ireland, SFI, research centres in this space. We can see fantastic, ground-breaking and market-leading work happening in these research centres, often very much in conjunction with large-scale industry. We have been working with the MaREI Centre in UCC trying to connect and tap into the research it is doing around the climate space, which is very comprehensive. We think there is a significant opportunity for better connectivity with the financial world and the broader swathe of SMEs and mid-sized businesses that are not necessarily thinking about where they can tap into new ideas, innovations and research that could drive their businesses. We saw a very good example where UCC did some cutting-edge work on the decarbonisation of distilleries. We have an investment in a distillery 60 miles up the road and there was no connectivity there. There was no sense from our investee business that this intellectual property was there to be used and no sense within the university that there was an opportunity 60 miles up the road to deploy that intellectual property and see it work. Bringing those groups together and opening up access to this incredible research is really important.

That concludes our consideration of the matter today. I thank all our witnesses for assisting the committee in its consideration of this matter. The committee will consider the matter further as soon as possible. I propose that the committee go into private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.23 a.m. and adjourned at 11.38 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 March 2023.
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