Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 10 May 2023

Engagement with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment

Members who are participating remotely need to do so from within the Leinster House complex, as they well know. We have not received any apologies.

Today's engagement is with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, regarding an update on quarter 1 matters relating to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Department is responsible for advising and implementing the Government's policies that relate to developing the productive capacity of the economy and fostering an environment which provides for employment creation and sustainability. The Department is also engaged in developing policies that enable fair competition in the marketplace, protect consumers and safeguard workers.

I am pleased that we have the opportunity to consider these matters further with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Simon Coveney. I welcome his officials: Mr. Dermot Mulligan, assistant secretary, workplace relations and economic migrant unit; Ms Caoimhe Gavin, principal officer, enterprise strategy unit; Mr. Colm Forde, principal officer, offshore wind strategy unit; Ms Maedhbh Cronin, principal officer, retail and locally traded enterprise unit; Ms Karen Hynes, principal officer, entrepreneurship and small business unit; Mr. John Hughes, principal officer, inward investment unit; and Ms Tara Keane, principal officer, commerce, consumer and competition unit.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statement has been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite the Minister to make his opening remarks.

Good morning, members. I am grateful for the opportunity to brief the committee today. I look forward to updating members on the work of my Department in the first quarter of this year.

At the outset, it is worth noting that more people are employed in Ireland today than ever before. Central Statistics Office, CSO, data published last week show the unemployment rate for April 2023 was down to 3.9%. Clients of the enterprise agencies of my Department now employ over 550,000 people, which is over 21% of the total workforce. As a country, we are close to full employment.

The economy is well diversified, with hundreds of thousands of people employed in pharmaceuticals, agrifood, medtech, retail, construction, ICT and financial services.

Despite the impact of the war in Ukraine, inflationary pressures and disruptions to the global supply chain have not impacted on our export performance and it continues to be strong. Informed by our new trade and investment strategy we are working to enhance our excellent reputation as a world-class supplier of goods and services, while also successfully securing new business in markets around the world. Trends in the first quarter of this year are positive, with 11 new IDA Ireland jobs announcements, generating 600 new jobs. A significant number of more jobs on top of that were announced last week. Given where we were a couple of years ago, with the pandemic and Brexit, and the current challenges we are facing, our performance is a testament to the hard work and remarkable resilience of Irish enterprise. It is also a result of our enterprise policies and implementation of those by my Department as well as Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and the local enterprise offices, LEOs. There is, however, no room for complacency. The White Paper on enterprise published in December provides a fresh impetus for progress. It sets a vision for enterprise to succeed through competitive advantage founded on sustainability, innovation and productivity as well as delivering rewarding jobs and livelihoods. This approach will ensure we build on our economic strengths as an open economy with strong trade and foreign direct investment, as a vibrant innovation hub and a country with a resilient enterprise base and labour market.

Notwithstanding our strong employment and trade performance, the global economic outlook remains uncertain. In 2023, my Department continues to be at the forefront of the Government’s response to the challenges brought about by the war in Ukraine, which include disrupted supply chains, inflation and high energy costs. We have launched a suite of new initiatives and made improvements to others. In January, the Ukraine credit guarantee scheme, valued at €1.2 billion, got under way. This scheme provides certainty to businesses that their liquidity funding needs can be met through low-cost loans supported by the Government. This is complemented by the extension and expansion of the €200 million Ukraine enterprise crisis scheme to assist viable but vulnerable firms in the manufacturing and internationally traded services sectors. I am acutely aware of the significant impact that energy costs are having on businesses and we have extended and enhanced the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, to increase the levels of relief available to companies.

The White Paper on enterprise recognises the opportunities that arise as we transition to a climate-neutral, sustainable and digitally connected Ireland. Our aim is to be at the forefront of what is a global transition, maximising the potential in emerging technologies and markets and ensuring a strong reputation as a leading green economy. In March, we established new working groups to ensure we meet our ambitious climate action plan targets to decarbonise industrial heat and the commercial built environment. We have also committed to developing a national industrial strategy for offshore wind, which I am happy to talk to the committee about. The Government approved it yesterday. Harnessing this vast resource can help Ireland tackle the climate crisis by reducing emissions and position Ireland as an attractive place for global business in the future. We are continuing our important stakeholder engagement with regular meetings of groups such as the enterprise forum and the retail forum. Stakeholder engagement greatly assists us in developing strategies, policies and programmes. To date, we have held two of nine Building Better Business events. These events are being rolled out across the country to help enterprises navigate the green transition and to boost performance through digital transformation. In January, we launched a pilot framework to extend the mandate of the local enterprise offices. This will allow for the provision of direct grant aid to companies with more than ten employees in the manufacturing and internationally traded services sectors that have export ambitions. In February, we hosted a construction industry outreach event, Collaborate to Innovate, to examine how best to promote innovation in the sector and accelerate the adoption of modern methods of construction in the delivery of housing. We have expanded our supports for targeted, business-focused research, development and innovation. In March, a sixth call of the disruptive technologies innovation fund was launched. This call had a focus on projects that complement our policy objectives on digital transformation, integrating decarbonisation and meeting our net zero commitments.

We continue to advance our legislative priorities. This year we will progress Bills on the control of exports, digital services, the screening of third country transactions and representative actions. The Ministers of State, Deputies Calleary and Richmond, are advancing important legislation to enhance the protection of employees in collective redundancies following insolvency. To ensure that work pays more, on 1 January the national minimum wage increased by 80 cent to €11.30 per hour. This increase can be considered the first year of the proposed four-year path towards reaching the living wage of 60% of the median wage. To ensure our strong performance continues, I am finalising a new departmental statement of strategy, which will run to 2025. Guided by the objectives of the White Paper on enterprise, it will give us a strategic framework not only to protect the progress made, but to build a greener, more sustainable and more prosperous country. My Department has set out an ambitious programme of work for the year ahead. I can assure the committee that I will continue to work hard to make the right policy calls for employment creation, enterprise development, trading relationships, safeguarding workers, consumer protection and ensuring fair competition in the marketplace. I look forward to members' questions.

I will mention a concern I suspect the committee has which would be consistent with the Government's concern about price inflation in food prices in the grocery sector which is running at approximately double general inflation. The Government is not happy about that. We expect to see reductions in prices in the food retail sector in line with reductions in inflation, as it develops this year. The cost of energy and supply chains have reduced and we expect the prices in food retail to reduce accordingly. That is why the Government has asked that the retail forum be convened today - it was brought forward a number of weeks - and it will meet again in six weeks' time. We expect to see progress in the interim period. I am happy to talk to members about that. We have also looked for and received preliminary advice from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC. I am happy to talk through it with members if they would like to do so. This is an area the Government will watch closely. We expect to see competition in the market function as it should to ensure consumer interests are protected with respect to reducing prices and inflation in this sector. I am happy to take any comments and questions members may have.

I thank the Minister and his team for coming in. The last time he was here, which was the first time he was here, a few months ago, he gave a commitment to established a TBESS-like scheme for businesses that use kerosene and oil. The Minister will be aware that I have asked a number of parliamentary questions about this but it does not seem that the scheme is coming any time soon. Will he provide an update on it please?

This is easier said than done.

That is one of the reasons Revenue has not implemented a kerosene support scheme. We will do it. Our team has been working on it for the past few weeks. We are close to finalising a scheme that I hope to bring to the Government in the next few weeks.

Will it be backdated?

That is genuinely all I needed. It seemed it had disappeared from sight a little bit.

I cannot brief the committee on the detail of that until I brief the Government on it.

To give some reassurance, this has been quite tricky to get right. We do not want to have a significant bureaucratic burden on businesses in order to get support. We want it to be as simple as possible. Filling a tank of kerosene is not the same as paying monthly electricity bills that can be easily calculated. We have looked to significantly simplify the approach to have a scheme to support businesses that have seen a significant increase in the cost of their home heating and kerosene. We are pretty close to finalising a scheme. I hope I will be able to get approval from the various Departments I need to get approval from, including the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

That is welcome. It is good to know that it is on its way.

The Deputy will see progress on this in the next fortnight.

Excellent. I thank the Minister. In his opening statement, he mentioned the diverse nature of the Irish economy. A central plank of his White Paper is focused on diluting the concentration risks in the multinational sector by growing our domestic and SME sector. Obviously, growing the indigenous SME sector will help with economic diversification and protect our economy from external shocks. Does the Minister believe that we currently have enough diversification throughout the economy? If so, is it deep enough and sustainable?

The economy is more balanced than it has ever been before, but we still have work to do. There is still significant reliance on about ten large multinationals for a huge amount of our corporate tax revenue in Ireland. They are global players and they make an extraordinary contribution to the Irish economy through employment and corporate tax receipts, but they are such huge players in the Irish economy that there is a vulnerability linked to the reliance on a relatively small number of very large companies. We are working on that. Last year was encouraging. Enterprise Ireland added a net 12,000 jobs involving Irish companies based on growth and exports. Last year, IDA Ireland had 100 new projects in Ireland from companies that have not been here before, as well as another 145 or so projects linked to companies that were already here and were looking to expand to go. This added a net 24,000 jobs to the Irish economy. Indigenous companies, which are growing and supported by Enterprise Ireland and local enterprise offices, are seeing significant growth. About two thirds of the growth in Enterprise Ireland companies is happening outside Dublin. Over 80% of jobs growth linked to local enterprise offices is happening outside Dublin. Over half of the growth of IDA Ireland-supported companies is happening outside Dublin.

We are focused on balanced regional development. There were announcements in the last number of weeks. Last week, 1,000 jobs were announced in Athenry. A few weeks ago, 1,000 jobs were announced for west Limerick by very credible large multinationals. We are focusing on both regional balance and ensuring there is a broad spread of multinationals as well as making sure that Irish companies-----

That was my question. It was about diversification rather than regional balance. I understand regional balance is important but the question is slightly different.

I hear the Deputy's point. I do not think we should downplay the importance of multinationals in Ireland. We are a globalised economy and the multinational sector makes a phenomenal contribution to both our tax take and employment opportunities in Ireland. My priority is and will continue to be building Irish companies, SMEs and family businesses and helping them and supporting them to grow and expand. That is the heartbeat of an economy. It is where 80% of our employment comes from. While, of course, we need to support and remain competitive for international business to locate here, we need to always prioritise building the potential for Irish enterprise, entrepreneurs, start-ups and graduates. That means investing in education and in enterprise-focused policy and supports. There is a big focus on that. If the Deputy has had a chance to read the White Paper on Enterprise, that is effectively our enterprise strategy now. There is a real focus on decarbonising our economy, digitising it, and ensuring that Irish SMEs can aspire to become multinationals themselves, based out of Ireland, as ambitious, growing Irish businesses. We will continue to have a big focus on that. It is the No. 1 priority.

That brings me quite neatly to my next question. I thank the Minister. I want to ask about two matters. The first is the expansion of SMEs and microenterprises and ensuring that they have strong exports. Second, once this is achieved, there is the issue of the failure to scale SMEs into mid-caps and then to global corporations. This year alone, we have heard from organisations that have spoken about a weakness in what they call an early exit, where companies are sold at an early stage. There is a well-referenced value of €75 million. Once companies reach that value, they sell up. How can we help these companies to scale up and not sell up? What does the Minister think needs to be done to address the situation where Irish SMEs sell up to foreign buyers rather than get the help they need to scale up and grow their business? I fully appreciate the ambition. It is in the White Paper. Practically speaking, are there targets? I have read the White Paper several times. When one looks at what is actually happening, that €75 million is like a target or ceiling. Once it is hit, companies sell up rather than scale up. There is scope to assist companies in scaling up rather than selling up.

I welcome that the Deputy is talking my language. It is exactly what we need to do. There is a history in Ireland of companies growing to a certain ceiling and then effectively getting bought out by large global brands. Entrepreneurs make a significant amount of money cashing out and then looking to set up another business. In the enterprise strategy, we want to see many more Irish companies push past that ceiling and get both the financial supports and other supports that they need to become large multinationals themselves. There is a big ambition in the enterprise strategy to do that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a business where people work incredibly hard, get an attractive offer and want to cash in on their hard work, but we want to persuade more companies not to take that tempting offer and instead to build a global brand out of Ireland.

Some sectors have been successful in doing that, particularly the food sector, including companies like Kerrygold, Glanbia and Carbery. They are extraordinary success stories internationally in becoming Irish multinationals. CRH is the same. We want to see more of that. We are starting to see it in the tech space too, where Irish companies are starting to grow and expand. They are resisting the temptation to be taken over and are looking to build global names that can continue to go on past that €40 million, €50 million or €70 million valuation to employ potentially thousands of people in the future, expanding their footprints both at home and abroad. Enterprise Ireland is focused on trying to take companies on that journey and, if necessary, investing in them, and helping them to get past venture capital funding. Companies hit a funding pressure when they reach a certain size, where they require significantly more capital to make the next jump.

That is where we have to have State intervention, if necessary, in the form of Enterprise Ireland supports. We also need a well-run funding market in Ireland for business capital, business angels, and a range of other supports. We also need mentoring to help companies to move past that ceiling.

It is not happening organically. By the way, this is very long-standing Sinn Féin policy in terms of growing these companies. Is it the intention of the State to intervene to ensure these companies can make this leap? As the Minister said, and rightly so, there is pressure there which will require some form of support. The Minister listed what those supports could be, but given the Minister is here to represent the State-----

-----business angels would be grand, but what is the Government prepared to do?

First, as would be expected, we are currently examining the issue. We will publish a strategic plan regarding the use of finance as a catalyst to develop scaling ecosystems towards the end of the second quarter of this year, which is effectively in the next couple of months.

Yes. It is the second quarter now.

Yes, we are in the second quarter but not yet at the end of it.

In fairness, we are well into it.

We are halfway through it.

If we look at Enterprise Ireland's future direction in terms of scaling, we are commencing a pilot programme focused on building supports for very high-potential scaling companies. We are driving several top, high-potential early-stage companies through seed and venture funds and direct, pre-seed and seed investment endeavours. We are focusing on accessing the ability to increase the number of large companies to avail of the funding opportunities with a view to increasing the pipeline by 50% by 2030. We have, therefore, set some pretty ambitious targets. We effectively want to increase the number of high-potential scaling companies by 50% over the next six and a half years.

This is not a small target.

No. The targets should not be small. They should be ambitious.

By the way, this is absolutely doable. If we look at the pace of growth in the Irish economy and if we consider the management skills in multinationals that are Irish-led now, at home and abroad, there is no reason we should not be really ambitious in this area. There are many top managers in non-Irish multinationals today who are growing and building international businesses. We want to see some of those skill sets doing the same for Irish names.

I wish to ask a very brief question on the proposed corporate sustainability due diligence directive, CSDDD. As the Minister knows, on 1 June 2023 the European Parliament will vote to decide the negotiating position in this regard. The general approach agreed in December 2022 has made access to justice and remedies for victims, which should be at the heart of this law, fairly inaccessible and unworkable. Will Ireland use its voice in the European Council to advocate for the removal of serious obstacles to accessing justice, which will undermine the objective and purpose of the directive? This is something we considered at this committee already and it is our intention to have further dialogue on this matter. I ask the Minister to outline Ireland's current position on this proposal.

If the committee has a position on this matter, I would like to hear it. I do not want to give a response off the cuff to what is quite a technical question. I will happily come back to the committee regarding the current state of play concerning the Government's position in this regard. If the committee has a settled position on this topic, it would be useful for us to hear it.

No, I am sorry. We have considered this matter and we have had hearings on it. We have not issued a report and nor have we come to a position on it. I am asking what the Government's position is on this issue.

I do not have information on a detailed position here in front of me-----

Okay. If the Minister could-----

I can certainly send it on to the committee.

Was an attempt made by the committee to get agreement on this issue?

We have not yet-----

No. We are only at the preliminary stage and we have not yet reached an agreement on it.

Okay. We will obviously have a position on this matter, but I would like to check with our team and liaise with the committee.

That is very fair. It would be brilliant if that information could be sent to us. I thank the Minister.

I call Deputy Stanton.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and I am thankful for the presentation. I would like to pick up on what Deputy O'Reilly mentioned about the proposed CSDDD. We had a hearing on this issue. We had representatives from the Irish Coalition for Business and Human Rights, ICBHR, with us at one stage. That organisation has presented us all with an interesting set of questions which the committee could pass on to the Minister to get his observations on them. It might be useful to do so. The ICBHR has some concerns with respect to how this directive is going from its perspective. On the other hand, businesses here are very concerned about the responsibilities this directive will impose on them. They have told us it is like Brexit No. 2, and we know what Brexit No. 1 was like. They are very concerned about this issue. I would like to know what the Department is doing with businesses to prepare them for the arrival of this new directive, which is the other side of the equation in this regard.

First, a directive has already been agreed around the corporate sustainability reporting directive, CSRD. That places a more extensive requirement on larger companies that employ more than 500 people in terms of the timelines around when it has to be implemented. Effectively, however, we are moving towards a situation where financial and sustainability reporting are moving into the same space in respect of obligations on companies. We have a lead-in time to work with companies to ensure this is done. I think it is the right thing to do. This is going to be a requirement for every business across the EU. It is not just an Irish issue. Over time, it will also be a competitiveness issue in respect of businesses being able to show clearly their reporting on the sustainability of their businesses in respect of where and how they source materials and how they treat their workers, etc. I do not think, therefore, that we should see this directive as a threat or a cost or an extra bureaucratic problem for businesses. Instead, I think we need to work with businesses to try to streamline how this is implemented. As I said, we have quite a lead-in time to enable us to do this in respect of applying the directive here and working with companies. We have several years to undertake this process. That directive has already been agreed and the process now is concerned with its ratification and implementation.

In terms of what has been raised around the CSDDD, this is very much linked with the responsibility of businesses more generally in terms of how we pursue that agenda. I have been involved in several international debates on this matter. From my perspective, of course we must watch carefully that we do not ask of businesses things that would make the running of those businesses much more difficult. I see how businesses are run, however, and the consistency with our trade policy in Ireland, which is very much focused on ensuring we are trading in a way that supports human rights and sustainability and takes account of our climate obligations. This will very much be part of running a business in the future.

The challenge for my Department, then, is how we can help businesses to adapt to these new realities, as opposed to ignoring them. We must ensure we put public money and, indeed, policy, supports and mentoring in place to help businesses to do that in a cost-effective way to help them to maintain their cost competitiveness. We must also be a country that develops an international reputation as a place where business is done in a sustainable and fair manner, and in a way that is consistent with international law and human rights. This is very much going to be part of Ireland's future reputation, as well as our competitiveness proposition, which will not only be about our cost base.

Just a few weeks ago, we had witnesses from the Irish Exporters Association before us. They told us that many small- and medium-sized companies are not yet aware of, let alone ready for, the CSRD. I put this information out there because that organisation is concerned that companies are not even aware of this directive, which means they cannot be ready for it.

To move to a different matter-----

Just on that point, I met representatives of the Irish Exporters Association last night for three hours and I took questions on this issue. We had a dinner, a speech and about one and a half hours of questions. I am, therefore, very much alive to the concerns expressed in this regard. I know representatives of the group were here with the committee in recent weeks.

We will work with them and representatives of other business bodies to ensure appropriate communication with business on the obligations and on a fair, long lead-in time to enable us to support businesses in making any changes they need to make.

We had a presentation from businesses concerning the Unified Patent Court. I understand we will need a referendum to ratify the agreement on this. We were told ratification could be worth between €0.5 billion and €1.5 billion to the Irish economy. Could the Minister update us on the Government's plans to hold a referendum on the court? How important is it? Does he agree with business that it is important, including for employees and jobs? Could we have an update on the current position?

It is very important. The new EU unitary patents system will enable uniform patent protection across all participating EU member states by way of a single patent application and will provide a centralised platform for Europe-wide patents litigation before the Unified Patent Court. My Department's officials are advancing preparations for the constitutional referendum on the agreement on the court, which, if voted for, will enable the transfer of jurisdictional power from Irish courts to the new international court. The date for the referendum is obviously a matter for the Government to decide. It has not been decided yet. It is likely that it will be on the day of the European and local elections next year. We could hold it in the autumn as there is a good chance that we will have another referendum in the autumn. It is really a judgment call as to whether we should have several referendums together. On the Unified Patent Court referendum, it is important to have all-party agreement on what we are trying to do. This is a much more important issue than many might think in terms of Ireland's place in the EU Single Market and how we protect patents for innovators and Irish companies that seek to develop products and want protection for them. It is a very important issue for Ireland.

Being outside the system would be very problematic for us. We have a big job to explain to the public what we are trying to do here. I will certainly be appealing to Opposition parties to help us to do this, thus ensuring the issue will not become unnecessarily politicised in an unhelpful way. I will be happy to talk on a future date about how we might proceed together make this important change. As members know, whenever there is a substantial change at EU level that involves treaty change or whatever, we have to have a referendum here. I am very comfortable doing that but just want to ensure that, when we hold the referendum, there will be a decent lead-in time and the people will know what they are voting on. In this way, we can get it passed. The matter is important and industry in Ireland will watch this closely. When we hold the referendum is really a political judgment call. We could be ready for the autumn if we wanted but it is probably more likely that we will hold the referendum with the European elections.

I encourage the Government to hold it sooner rather than later. It is important that we get this done as quickly as possible. The Minister is correct about getting it done properly in respect of the court. We need to have a debate on it and inform people on what this matter is about. For entrepreneurs and small businesses, in particular, it is important to address this.

Quite often, we talk about big business but I want to ask about a matter at the other end of the scale. Casual and occasional trading licence legislation dates from 1995. A public consultation was launched in 2018 and there was to be a review. We were expecting some form of update on the legislation but I have been told this is in abeyance. Could the Minister commit to reinvigorating the process? For very small, one-person operations with casual and occasional trading licences, there are issues that need to be addressed. There was public consultation and work done on this, but it was put on the back burner. Could the Minister comment on that? If he does not have a briefing note on it now, he might look into it, get on to the Department and get it moving.

Is this about country markets?

That is a big issue in the Deputy's constituency. There are some very successful markets in towns like Midleton and elsewhere. I am not up to speed on where we are at but will happily revert to the Deputy on it. If the system is not functioning as it should, we will need to look into it, particularly to support local enterprise activity. Anyone who travels to the Midleton market will know about this. It is the same in my constituency, in places like Douglas, where casual traders come, presumably under licence. If there is a policy or legislative issue that needs to be addressed, I will happily examine it. It is not a matter I have been briefed on.

I understand all the work has been done but it has been put in abeyance through a lack of resources in the Department. That is what I was told in response to a parliamentary question a while ago.

I will revert to the Deputy on it.

It would be wrong of me not to raise the issue of the Ballyadam site in Carrigtwohill, the largest IDA Ireland site in the country, or one of the biggest. It is fully resourced. The Minister, who passes it quite often, is well aware of it. It has been sitting there for ten or 15 years. I am told there have been no site visits in the past four years. I am aware that IDA Ireland is looking for sites such as this around the country. This is its own site but it cannot use it. Perhaps the Minister might comment on why it is sitting there unused.

There has been a lot of IDA Ireland activity in and around that site in terms of some of the announcements that have been made. I will be involved this week regarding a site very close by. This relates to a multinational expanding more in east Cork, which includes the area of Little Island, Carrigtwohill, Midleton-----

I do not have much time.

No, but anybody who thinks IDA Ireland has not delivered in east Cork just needs to take a look at the numbers. It is one of the big success stories nationally. That said, what is referred to by most people locally is the Amgen site. It is a large site and it is very well catered for with utilities. Road infrastructure needs to be built adjacent to the site and more generally in the area. We are seeking to progress this.

I have spoken to representatives of IDA Ireland about the site. We do not have very many sites of this scale nationally, although we have a few. I regard the site as a strategic one whose development we need to focus on. There has been a lot more activity than the Deputy might think on the site – activity involving IDA Ireland and the county council regarding zoning and infrastructure issues – but it is true that we have not got the right fit yet in the sense of a large multinational seeking to locate there. I hope that will change in the coming months. There has been no shortage of demand to come to Ireland recently. I am on this. I realise the Deputy raises the matter of the site with me regularly. I pass it regularly and am reminded of it every time I pass it. This is one of the most strategic IDA Ireland sites in the country. I suspect that, in the months ahead, I will be asking the Government for a lot more money for IDA Ireland to purchase strategic land banks nationally to plan for the future. We have a very strategic land bank already at the site in question and we will do everything we can to try to use it. It has so many positive aspects, from the rail line to its being in a residential location. Also, it is in pretty close proximity to what will be the energy interconnector with France. Therefore, there is much to be said in favour of the site. Some road infrastructure is needed. It would be much easier for me to get it across the line if we had an international project that wanted to locate at the site.

I thank the Minister very much for coming here. I want to ask him about the employment part of his portfolio or brief, particularly with regard to construction skills.

We obviously have a significant need to ramp up housebuilding and with that goes a big demand for construction labour. There are a number of proposals circulating at the moment. Last week the Labour Party brought forward legislation to try to address the issues with construction apprenticeships. My question to the Minister is about putting construction and craft skills on the critical skills employment permit scheme. They are not there at present. We have heard from construction employers about the need to import construction skills from abroad. It seems bizarre and unusual construction is not yet on the critical skills list. Is the Department looking at this and what are the Minister's views on it?

The Department is looking at this. We will be updating the critical skills list between now and midsummer, so it is actually very current. We do give work permits for skills in construction, but we are reviewing it to see if there are limitations in terms of the critical skills list. We give permits for carpenters, tilers and painters.

That is under the general employment permit though, as opposed to the critical skills employment permit.

Yes, so if there is a need to change the critical skills list to try to ease the work permit application process, now is the time for us to think about that. We have had consultation with different industry bodies and so on. It is quite a long list already, but I am sure there are categories that need to be on it that are not. There is an opportunity to address that over the next few weeks.

It is worth saying the work permit process is much slicker now than it has ever been. We give a decision on a work permit in about two weeks, whereas a year ago it was taking three months and sometimes longer. We have put a lot of resources into the work permits issue. There are very few countries that will turn around a work permit in ten working days like we will. At the outset it might take three weeks, but sometimes it is much faster. There is sometimes a second barrier in terms of having to get a visa from the Department of Justice, depending on the country. We have had some preliminary discussions on trying to put together a single application process that would allow a company to apply for a work permit and a visa through the same application system. That makes sense, but it is much more complicated than it sounds and involves two Government Departments, security checks and a whole range of other things linked to visa applications but not work permit applications. That is where I would like to get to, though it will be another year or so before we can conclude that. In the meantime, we have a very efficient work permit application system. We are looking at the legislation in that space to improve it even further and we are also looking at the critical skills list to ensure we are filling the gaps as necessary. So far this year, we are at a rate of work permits equivalent to somewhere between 30,000 and 35,000 in the year. They are flowing.

That is great. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, published its annual report yesterday and we saw that of the 5,820 inspections it conducted last year, 5,700 workplaces were found to be in contravention of employment law. That is 98% of all inspections. We can make two interpretations of that. One is that lawbreaking is widespread across Irish workplaces, though I am not convinced that is entirely the truth. The other is the WRC is hugely underresourced. I am not sure whether the Minister has had a chance to look at the report, what his views are on the resourcing and what his plans are. From where I am standing and having spoken with trade unions, it certainly seems there is a massive issue with resourcing the WRC. That 98% contravention rate seems to point to a problem.

It is important to put context around some of those comments. Inspections are risk-based. Inspections take place when there is a reasonable concern something is not as it should be. That is a big part of explaining why, in the vast majority of cases where there are inspections a problem emerges, as the WRC is inspecting to find the problem. It is not fair to categorise this as 98% of Irish workplaces having a problem.

I did not say that, but of the inspections undertaken there was a 98% contravention rate, which seems an enormous figure. I appreciate it is risk-based. I apologise for interrupting the Minister, but that 98% means almost every workplace inspected was found to have an issue. That is too high, frankly.

I agree it is too high. I am just saying it is important to note the context around why inspections take place. Inspections take place, for the most part, because there is a suspicion there is an issue. That partly explains why the 98% figure is so high. I am not saying that is good enough, but it is not reflective of the workplace more generally.

As to whether the WRC has sufficient resources in its inspectorate, it currently has 65 serving inspectors of a sanctioned complement of 70. That sanctioned complement represents an increase of ten posts since 2021 and my Department will keep staffing levels under ongoing review. The inspectorate operates as a decentralised service with inspection teams and support staff located in Dublin, Cork, Carlow, Sligo and Ennis. My Department works closely with the WRC to monitor and review its resource requirements. This year the WRC is allocated funding of €16.8 million for pay and non-pay by my Department. In blunt terms, if the WRC needs more resources and can justify the request, it will not find me wanting in terms of responding. It is a really important part of our industrial machinery and we work closely with it. The commission is of course independent of the Department with respect to its decision-making, but we are the funding Department. It is a very important resource to maintain industrial peace and if there is a case made we will respond to it positively.

I thank the Minister.

I have questions under a number of headings. I will ask them together and the Minister might reply to them together.

I begin with European works councils. Ireland has a significant number, but the Commission has found our legislation, especially with respect to disputes, does not live up to the EU directive. Will the Government commit to ensuring our legislation meets EU standards and in particular that it allows disputes to be taken by European works councils? The recent Verizon case highlighted many issue with legislation here. One conclusion from the WRC was there should be a code of practice in place on European works councils. Will the Government commit to introducing such a code of conduct? They exist in many other European countries.

I move to directly-employed fishers. They are the only private sector workers who do not have the right to go to the WRC or the Labour Court on the issue of excessive hours or insufficient breaks and rest. In April 2019 an agreement was made with one of the Minister's predecessors by the International Transport Workers Federation, which was representing these workers. That was more than four years ago.

That this would be addressed would require a simple amendment to the Workplace Relations Act to give jurisdiction to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the Labour Court. The reply to a parliamentary question I submitted and which was replied to by one of the Minister's predecessors, stated that this would be dealt with in the legislative programme of spring 2022. There is still no progress so what will the Minister say about that?

I raise the question of the 1,000 Indian nurses who were brought to this country with two-year work permits at the start of this year who are working in private nursing homes. The arrangement stipulated they be paid a basic wage of €27,000 and the vast bulk of them received that and not a penny more. They do difficult, stressful, mentally draining and vital work in our health services yet they cannot unify with their families. They are separated from their kids and their partners because one of the conditions for their child or partner to come to Ireland and stay even to be considered is that there be an annual income of €30,000. That is €3,000 more than what most of these workers are paid. I think it is unjust and I would like the Minister to comment on that and indicate what steps he might intend to take. These workers are also required to do a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI ,level 5 after their two years. That can cost up to €1,700 each. They have qualifications from India that go way beyond QQI level 5. They are nurses. Why is the State forcing them to take that qualification and to pay for it from their own pockets? I would like a comment on that.

Finally, I have a question regarding the redundancy legislation the Minister recently brought to Cabinet. When I hear about redundancy legislation I ask myself whether it passes the Duffy Cahill test. Would it have been of major beneficial significance to say the Clery's workers? I ask myself whether it passes the Debenhams test. The Debenhams workers said that collective agreements with employers should have the legal status of a debt in a liquidation situation, that in a liquidation situation workers should be first in the queue. It seems to me that the legislation falls far short of the Debenhams test, and short of the Duffy Cahill test as well and I would like the Minister to comment on that.

There are a lot of questions and I thank the Deputy. I will answer in reverse. First, on the general scheme of the plan of action on collective redundancies following insolvency Bill, I brought that to Government in the last couple of weeks. We will bring it to committee for prelegislative scrutiny so Deputy Barry can go through it in some detail at that stage. It is important not to sell this legislation as being something it is not. This legislation removes the exemption from notification requirements in respect of collective redundancies caused by an employer's insolvency. This means all collective redundancies will be subject to a 30-day notification period before they take effect, including when the employer is insolvent. It provides for employees to seek redress from the Workplace Relations Commission if their employer makes them redundant before their 30-day notification period finishes. It aligns the 1997 Act with case law from the European Court of Justice by explicitly providing that the employer's obligations must be complied with by a liquidator or similar appointee. If that does not happen, the liquidator or similar appointee could be prosecuted and convicted by a fine. This is really about notification, communication and obligations on liquidators operating on behalf of the company. Of course, the Debenhams and Clery's cases will be raised in the context of this legislation and we can tease through it in that regard. I think this is a significant improvement in terms of collective redundancy law, the obligation on the employer and in terms of the notification periods required by law and so on. However, it will not solve all of the issues and many of the issues raised by Deputy Barry relating to those individual cases. It is important to outline that but we will go through it in a lot more detail in the context of this committee's work at a prelegislative scrutiny stage and when we go through the legislative process that follows.

On the Indian workers, first I will say that non-Irish workers generally make an extraordinary contribution to Irish healthcare and Irish care facilities. We are looking at spouses' permits at the moment so we can take measures to improve the position of spouses and family members in the context of work-permit holders. It would make coming to Ireland much more attractive if people could bring a partner or spouse with them. We are teasing through the issues on that at the moment and will hopefully come back with some new thinking on it.

In terms of fishers, this is something I have some knowledge about having previously been a Minister with responsibility for the marine. In looking at this issue, I met the International Transport Workers' Federation to discuss this issue in some detail. I have obviously been in different Departments since then but I think there is an issue in the fishing sector in terms of guaranteeing protections in the workplace. I have received a note to say the Department is currently looking at the issue and considering the legislative amendment required. I hope to come back and update the committee when that work is done.

Regarding European works councils, I know the WRC may be asked to look at a code of practice in this area. Obviously we have to be consistent with European Commission regulations and requirements.

The note I have says that this issue is under review and once that process concludes I will give a more informed answer of terms of where we will go from here. I am comfortable that we will come back to it.

I wish to cover five areas and ask the Minister respond if he can. The first area relates to the TBESS scheme. The last time the Minister was at this committee we outlined to him the difficulties regarding the scheme and that it seemed to favour larger SMEs which could appoint specialists to make the submissions for them. What learning have we taken from that because we may have to implement something again later this year?

My second question relates to access to finance in the SME space. Pillar bank finance now runs at approximately 8% plus, and linked finance runs at approximately 14% plus per annum. I raised it with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, last night. Is there a possibility of running another Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, bank loan scheme through the pillar banks to allow SMEs to access finance at competitive rates?

The third area I will cover is commercial insurance. The duty of care that was promised to be dealt with by 2 May is still in the Seanad. Is there any chance of that being pushed along?

Getting what pushed along?

The duty of care Bill. We were promised that by 2 May. Also relating to that we have seen in the last week that judicial guidelines are not being properly adhered to. There was an award in the courts last week of €145,000 for the dislocation of an elbow.

This is just off the charts in terms of where the book of quantum lies. What can we do to look at that? The number of people circumventing the PIAB process has risen by 6% this year. Obviously, we want to keep that process as robust as possible but people are finding their way to the courts.

Beyond that, I would point to insurance costs. I know of a company in Waterford that was paying €10,000 per annum. It had two very minor claims, one that did not even go to court, but because of that, it is now paying €30,000 with a €10,000 excess on the policy. This is for a small business. A second company in the leisure industry had a €50,000 annual premium but that has now gone to €250,000 for the next five years because of claims it has had. This is where we are going with insurance. It will kill business as we go along. It is unsustainable what is happening with commercial insurance at the moment.

The fourth area I would like to cover is offshore wind licences, which I have raised in the Dáil a number of times. There was a report in the newspapers on the offshore wind licences which suggested the RESS auctions that are coming up and due to be awarded are going to pitch in at around €150 per megawatt hour, which is three times higher than Scotland. I have to ask how we are going to be competitively priced to export wind energy but also what we are going to be charging our indigenous economy for wind-generated energy in the future and what it is going to do to the competitive position of Irish businesses.

On another issue that I raised in the Dáil, I have been advocating for some time for the development of a grouping like the Western Development Commission for the south-east region, so we can get applied research under one mantle, we can get a strategic alliance across the region and the region can put out its best stall in terms of what it needs, and not have this multiplicity of plans. As far as I can see, this has very much been resisted by Departments and others who do not seem to want to get it done. I cannot understand why, when we had the Border, midlands and west region declared years ago and, although it was not operating at full strength, we were able to put legislation in place for that. The south-east region is the poorest performer of the large regions in the country at present, it has been for a significant period of time and it has the lowest allocation of capital resources. Why would we not have something like a Western Development Commission model for it?

In regard to TBESS, as the Deputy knows, we have effectively changed the thresholds and changed the percentage payout to make it a much more attractive scheme. Companies will now be able to claim 50% of the increase whereas it previously would have been 40%, they qualify on a lower threshold in terms of price increases and the net maximum amount they are able to get per month has also increased to €15,000 from €10,000. Of course, if they have three premises that are on three different billing systems, that threshold could potentially be up to €45,000 a month, for example, if there was a hotel group with three different hotels. TBESS is a much more attractive scheme than it was before. We are seeing a continuing increase in the uptake but I have to say it is still not what I thought it would be in terms of drawdown of money; it is still some 30,000 businesses, or slightly under that figure, that have availed of it so far.

Let us not forget that businesses can claim right back to last September and through until the end of May, and the Government has the capacity to extend it by a further two months if we think it is the right thing to do, and that is without any new legislation as it was built into the legislation that was passed around the Finance Act. We are monitoring TBESS closely. Companies will be able to apply for quite a few months yet, and that is backdated to last September. We may well get a surge of TBESS applications in the second half of the year and we obviously have to make sure we have an Estimate that can cover that.

At the outset of the meeting, I told Deputy O'Reilly that I hope that in the next few weeks we will also be able to bring forward a scheme that works in parallel with TBESS in regard to kerosene and home heating oil for businesses. There are many rural businesses, and some not so rural, such as hotels, restaurants and others, that effectively have a large tank out the back that fuels their heating systems, and those businesses should not be excluded. I have set that principle. Revenue was not able to put in place a scheme for kerosene just because its systems did not allow that easily, so we said we would take a look at it and see if we can do it within the agencies of our Department. It has been a more complicated challenge than I thought it was going to be, but we are pretty close to finalising an approach and I hope to be able to bring that to Government for approval in the next few weeks.

In terms of access to finance, there are some interventions in this space from Government. For example, the growth and sustainability loan scheme, GSLS, is a new long-term loan guarantee scheme jointly developed by my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, underpinned by resources from the European Investment Bank group and delivered by the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland. It addresses a gap in the lending market for appropriate longer-term lending for SMEs and follows on from the success of the future growth loan scheme. The GSLS will make up to €500 million in long-term lending available to SMEs, including farmers, fishers and small mid-caps, at a maximum cost to the Exchequer of €115 million. Loans of between €25,000 and €3 million, with terms of up to ten years, will be made available through the scheme to eligible SMEs through participating finance providers, with loans of up to €500,000 available unsecured.

That is one example of a response to what is the legitimate issue the Deputy is raising. Access to competitively costed finance is an issue for SMEs and we are trying to respond to that. There is also a Ukraine enterprise scheme that is about trying to ensure we can put low-cost loans in place for businesses that need to source capital because their business model has been disrupted by the fallout from the brutalities that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine.

With regard to insurance, the insurance action plan’s duty of care will reform or rebalance rights. It is a complex area and the Minister for Justice is bringing it through as soon as possible. I can try to get a more exact date from the Minister, Deputy Harris, and come back to the Deputy. Guidelines have reduced awards by 40% to 50% in the courts, or that is the data we have. Obviously, the courts are independent. The Department is aware of the issue that the Deputy has raised and we are considering how to approach that. We have to respect the division of powers in the context of the courts.

PIAB reform is being implemented by the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary. There is an acceptance that rates are good but we need more people to use the legislation to do this and, of course, it is not obligatory to go to PIAB. The Department will continue to work with the Departments of Finance and Justice and with PIAB to reduce the cost of claims and the cost of insurance. We have seen insurance costs go down significantly in terms of motor insurance, or certainly stop increasing, but the Deputy is right about other sectors where, particularly in the leisure and adventure sectors, it is incredibly restrictive. Our common law system is quite difficult to tally with allowing a sector to get reasonable insurance cover in this area, so more work is needed there.

I am glad the Deputy asked the question on offshore wind. My information is that some of the media reports in recent days regarding what we are likely to see in terms of pricing in the auction that is about to unfold are not accurate. We will have to wait and see what the pricing is but the figure referred to by the Deputy is not the ballpark we are in. I have asked the same questions the Deputy has asked. The pricing will be far more competitive than has been suggested by some of the commentary on the issue, particularly that last Sunday. I certainly hope that is the case because if we are looking at prices in that range, which are significantly more than in Scotland, for example, that would effectively tie in an uncompetitive pricing model for the foreseeable future linked to offshore wind and that is not where we want to be. We will see a much more competitive price than has been suggested by some. The Deputy will not have to wait too long to get those numbers.

I ask the Minister to briefly address the question on the Western Development Commission.

On the development commission, the south-east region is not doing as badly as is sometimes portrayed. If one considers job numbers there and what is happening in terms of university status and-----

EUROSTAT GDP tells a different story.

The Deputy is well over time. I ask the Minister to wrap up.

There is a time lag between investment and EUROSTAT GDP. Investment and employment in the south east has been a strong story in recent years and that will continue.

Is that a “No”?

It is not a “No”. I am just saying we need to have a purpose for it and I do not think the south east should be painted as a disadvantaged region. It is not disadvantaged.

It is good to see the Minister. I refer to the issue of European works councils. I have consistently raised it whenever a Minister has appeared before the committee. Infringement proceedings 4021 of 2022 from the Commission to Ireland state:

The Commission has identified a number of shortcomings in Irish legislation, which fails to guarantee the right of workers' representatives, the Special Negotiating Body ... or the European Works Council to go to a national court over disputes related to breaches of the rights and obligations under this Directive.

Does the Minister accept that is what is on the European Commission infringement notice? I ask that because when I raised this issue in October, an official seated beside the Minister’s predecessor stated, “To clarify, the Commission has made no such statement.” That is on the record. I am worried about this because seven unions, representing more than 45 million workers throughout Europe, wrote to the Minister’s predecessor to highlight their concerns. The employer group, Brussels European Employee Relations Group, BEERG, came to our committee meeting and wrote to the Minister’s predecessor to highlight its concerns. The Department seems to have a determined position not to deal with this issue but, rather, be in denial about it. If the Minister consults the record of the meeting in October, he will see a denial that the infringement proceedings are taking place.

Three weeks ago, a colleague from SIPTU met the Commissioner, Nicolas Schmit, who expressed his concern that nothing has moved forward on this issue. Having raised this issue consistently through Commencement matters and at the committee, I am entitled to a better response than being told this is in review. The infringement notice is now one year old. We have had 12 months to get some kind of stance from the Department.

Does the Minister accept there is a problem here? Does he accept the infringement notice is happening? I am frustrated because there has been a consensus at our hearings that there is a simple resolution to this issue, namely, to amend the existing legislation to include access to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the Labour Court to help resolve disputes relating to European works councils. We have heard the solution from employer and employee groups yet there appears to be a steadfast refusal by the Department to engage and deal with this issue. When I hear that it is in review, I despair because that is what I was told the last time. When we meet again six months from now, will I hear it again? Does the Department have a problem in dealing with this important workers’ rights issue that needs to be addressed?

We are in active discussion with the European Commission on this issue to try to get agreement on what to do. That process is under way and I wish to give our officials the time and space to do that. That is where we are. We have a difference of view with the Commission and we are talking to it about finding a resolution. Our legal advice does not agree with that of the Commission. By the way, having a disagreement with the Commission is not unusual on certain issues. We will work through the issues with the Commission and get an agreement in place that both sides can support. That is where it is at. It would not be helpful for me to make definitive statements one way or the other in the middle of that process.

My point is that 12 months have elapsed since the proceedings were initiated but the Department still appears to have absolutely nothing to say.

We have plenty to say but we need to say it to the Commission. We need to get an agreement on this issue. The Senator is correct to raise it. It has also been raised by ICTU. We need to respond to that by ensuring we respond to the concerns that have been raised by the Commission, and we will do so.

Having had 12 months to deal with this issue, can the Minister, at least, give me a timeline for when we will get a definitive response on this?

The timeline is when we get agreement with the Commission. I will not provide a timeline in weeks because I do not have that. If I had that figure, I would give it to the Senator. We are in a process and we have to work that through.

That is exactly what I was told six months ago. It indicates a lack of priority from the Department or an ideological objection to granting rights to workers that workers across Europe have, which is extremely disappointing.

I will move on.

Sorry, I am not moving on with that being the closing statement on the issue.

I am entitled to my opinion.

The Senator is entitled to his opinion but I am entitled to respond on the record. There is no ideological issue here in the context of-----

Then why is it taking so long?

-----my approach on this or the Department’s approach on this. We have a difference of legal interpretation with the Commission. We are working through that. That is not unusual between a member state and the Commission. We will bring this to a conclusion as soon as we can.

The view the Commissioner expressed to SIPTU three weeks ago is that it is particularly unusual that no progress has been made on this matter. I understand he intends to follow up on it directly.

In the short time I have left, I wish to raise another issue. I hope the Minister has seen the excellent report produced by the committee on co-operatives and the potential thereof. It speaks directly to the issue of diversity in the economy raised by my colleague, Deputy O’Reilly. One of the key recommendations made by the committee is that the Government give active consideration to re-establishing a co-operative development unit. We made that recommendation because the evidence from Scotland in particular, as well as from other jurisdictions, is that such a unit is needed to drive the support and development of co-operatives. It does not currently form part of the Bill, even though the evidence from Scotland shows that co-operatives have thrived, doubling in number, since the model was implemented there. What is the Minister’s position on this issue? It would be welcome if the Government could not just give active consideration to it, but seriously consider amending the planned legislation to include the establishment of a co-operative development unit to maximise the potential of the sector. As the Minister is aware, the sector in Ireland is very much behind the curve compared with its European peers,.

It has long been acknowledged by stakeholders that the industrial and provident societies legislation governing most Irish co-operatives is outdated and lacks clarity in several areas. As a consequence, the current model is not considered an attractive option for incorporation, in contrast to the modern environment available under company law.

Reform of the legislation is long overdue and the general scheme of the co-operative societies Bill provides a specific legislative basis for co-operative societies. For the first time, societies that register under the legislation will be required to adhere to the co-operative ethos. The legislation consolidates and modernises existing provisions and introduces new provisions on corporate governance, financial reporting and compliance requirements. There will be an opportunity to tease through that legislation as it comes through the Oireachtas. If members have amendments, I ask them to table them early and we will try to consider them fairly. More broadly, my experience of co-operatives has been in the agriculture and agrifood space. They have been central to the success of the agrifood economy. Some of our most successful global companies grew out of co-operatives. I can assure the committee that I am a supporter of a co-operative structure, specifically in certain sectors where they have been successful. We want to get this legislation right. We will have an open mind to sensible amendments and if members submit them early we will try to give them a response on them.

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his time and presentation. I will talk about what I regard as one of the biggest challenges we face, that is, around achieving sustainable growth. We will not have long-term prosperity without it. Ireland's record is pretty dismal. Our emissions are 50% higher than the EU average. Our circularity rate, which measures the extent to which we harvest the materials we use to reuse them, is 2% in Ireland but 13% in the EU. Our waste avoidance and recovery rates in construction, food and many other sectors are one of the worst in Europe. Our renewable energy generation is good in many ways in electricity for a small grid at 40%. Nonetheless, it is 10% in the economy overall, versus 15% in Europe. We have a unique opportunity. I do not know if the Minister will agree with my view that underlying all these trends is the lack of a coherent strategy around circular economy thinking, that is, looking at the materials we use and the fossil fuels we depend on. We are one of the most dependent on imported fossil fuels in Europe. There has not been consistent and strategic thinking across the Government on this. Would the Minister agree that circularity needs to be adopted as a cross-Government strategy, in addition to climate? It emphasises many things the climate debate tends to ignore. For example, if I buy an sports utility vehicle, SUV, that is 35 tonnes of embedded carbon. It may have happened in Japan or Korea but it has the same global impact as if it was manufactured in Ireland. It brings attention to a much wider range of choices we make and how they can be made sustainable. We are missing a beat in this area by not making it much more central to our communication with citizens and to the strategies each sector develops. Food, construction and other sectors are stand-out cases where enormous opportunities are being missed because we have not attended to them. My first question is whether the Minister agrees with me and whether he will start to build some momentum for this because climate is the dominant debate - and so it should be - but circular thinking is key to long-term prosperity.

The progress the Minister commented on in employment is truly staggering. Some 800,000 more people are at work now than in 2011 when I started in that Department. It seems that the Minister's move now is to consolidate that rather than setting a new employment target. There is no new employment target in the enterprise strategy. We recognise that what we must do is to make the jobs and enterprises we have better. In that context, the gap in productivity between the domestic sector, which has grown 0.6% per annum, versus multinationals, which have ten times the growth in productivity, clearly points to problems. I would be interested to understand the decision to give the LEOs an additional role with companies with more than ten employees in manufacturing and internationally traded services. A concern was expressed here that Enterprise Ireland is a centre of real experience that can drive productivity growth. Will the LEOs have that scale? There are approximately 30 of them. I do not remember the number. Will they have the capability? Do we need to think differently about how we will drive productivity growth in these Irish companies that are so important to our long-term future?

We have a continuing problem with price levels which revolves around our remote location. We know it is a problem, certainly with electricity and so on. Is there an emerging strategy to try to identify issues? I know the Minister has a meeting with the retail forum. In banking we have a rising-interest-rates environment. Banks are taking higher margins. Their profits are huge. One bank saw its share value increase by 4% in one day. Do we need to get together the Central Bank, the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to look at how well we are protecting consumers in the environment of significant disruption that is occurring?

There were a lot of questions, as I would expect from Deputy Bruton. I know Deputy Bruton has done quite a lot of work on the circular economy, as has Fine Gael. I will let him know in practical terms what is being done. First, there is a second iteration of a Government strategy being prepared on the circular economy by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. My Department is supporting that work, engaging on it and dealing with many of the areas the Deputy mentioned such as waste avoidance and recovery. The Deputy made a significant contribution on this when he was in the Department as regards putting real structure on Ireland's approach to the climate challenge. In the next few days we will see the first auction for the generation of offshore wind materialise and we are effectively starting to see the start of a new era of energy. It will take time, but certainly in the context of sustainable growth, if I am speaking to the IDA in a few years' time, the pitch for Ireland will be what it is today, plus a much stronger competitive narrative with respect to access to large amounts of clean energy. That will be driven predominantly by wind, both on and offshore, but it will also include solar energy. For the first time ever last week, 10% of Ireland's electricity needs were provided by solar energy. It was the first time it was in double digits and that will continue to grow. We are making progress in this area. With respect to certain sectors of the economy, my Department is pushing hard to try to promote modern methods of construction, which are far more efficient, should be more cost effective and certainly more sustainable as regards energy management. A much higher percentage of homes will be built off-site and constructed more quickly in the future, which will guarantee higher energy ratings and so on. There is more to do in this space. We are coming from behind in respect of some of the measurements although the percentage contribution from wind last year was close to 35% of the grid. We have set a target that 80% of our electricity generation will be renewable by 2030.

I think we can get there. Beyond 2030, we will be producing multiples of what our electricity grid currently demands but, of course, our energy use is not just about current electricity demand. It is also about transport fleets, etc. This week I had a really interesting meeting with Gas Networks Ireland. It spoke about how it is ensuring that its infrastructure is suitable for the transport of hydrogen around our economy, as well as gas and biogas. We are now seeing State companies and the private sector planning for a very different kind of future, which is much more in line with the Deputy’s vision for a circular economy in terms of how we manage waste and recycle it for further use or generate energy from it, how we effectively reposition current infrastructure, like, for example, pipeline infrastructure, to be able to carry the fuels of the future, such as hydrogen, and, of course, how we harvest and generate hydrogen through renewable sources, such as offshore wind. This is a really attractive new economy that we are planning for at the moment. The challenges are with licensing systems and auction rounds, as well as with trying to do it at a pace that can compete with our competitors, who are ahead of us in this space.

However, anybody who suggests that Ireland is not currently planning for an energy revolution does not really understand what is happening in government. While I think everyone in this committee understands what is happening, we perhaps also need to communicate that outside of these rooms.

On the questions about the role of local enterprise offices, LEOs, I think Deputy Bruton is right on this. At the end of last year, we effectively changed the remit of LEOs. As the Deputy will know, before that, they could only deal with a certain category of company, as well as companies that employed fewer than ten people. This was a pretty narrow cohort of businesses. We have now extended that to fewer than 50 people, which in my view dramatically changes the role of local enterprise offices. We have increased the resources for local enterprise offices in response to that increased demand. However, there is more work to do here. If you are a company that goes to a LEO office looking for specific expertise, in all likelihood you will probably get a grant or a voucher to source that expertise from the private sector. That is how the model generally works. We are thinking at the moment about how perhaps we could create centres of expertise in some LEO offices that could become national centres expertise in certain areas and, of course, about how we can tap into expertise within Enterprise Ireland that could potentially be used by LEO offices as well. Yet, there is a bit of work to be done on that. At the moment, we have a good support structure in place for small businesses and Enterprise Ireland is also doing a really good job but that does not mean we cannot improve it. That may be through vouchers and grants to allow companies to get the specialist support they need either from academia or from private sector consultants. Maybe we should be providing that expertise within centres of excellence in certain LEOs to provide that role. That is something that we are going to look at in the months ahead.

In terms of pricing levels, there is a big focus on retail today, and rightly so because consumers are sore at the moment when they look at their grocery bills at the end of each week. We still essentially have price inflation in the food retail sector of close to 13%, but inflation more generally is now down to approximately 6%. I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed by the Government. That is why the retail forum is meeting today. It is important, though, to say a few things more broadly. If you look at EUROSTAT figures, competition in the food retail space in Ireland has been working quite well. In fact, according to EUROSTAT, Ireland has the second lowest inflation rate in terms of food inflation since 2015 within the European Union. Therefore, not all is broken here. Having said that, it is really the last number of months that we have a concern about. We need to make sure that competition in food retail is working as it should and that consumers are getting a fair deal. Everybody understands the dramatic impact of the war in Ukraine has had on inflation, but the reality is that inflation is now reducing quite significantly and it will continue to do so throughout the year. That means effectively that the cost of producing food should be falling and the cost of supply chains should also be falling. We need to see that reflected in consumer prices within retail outlets. The Government will continue to focus on this until we get an outcome that we see as both transparent and fair for consumers.

The Deputy asked broader questions around costs generally, such as banking margins and profits in banking versus the competitiveness of the rates that are on offer. The issue of access to funds for the small business sector was raised earlier by some colleagues, and it is an issue. I will take away the suggestion the Deputy made in terms of whether we could call on multiple arms of the State, such as the Central Bank or Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, to maybe look at how we could be more impactful by making sure that funding in Ireland is as competitive as it needs to be given how globalised our market is, as well as how we are compared with other sites across the European Union all the time.

We will now move to the Fine Gael slot, which will be seven minutes. Senators Ahearn and Lombard can share the slot if they want to. We will move to a second round afterwards.

It is difficult to have the Minister before the committee to address the first quarterly figures without acknowledging the success in terms of the employment and unemployment figures. The figure was almost 2.6 million in 2011. As I said when the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, was before the committee a number of weeks ago, I remember during the election in 2011 - Senator Lombard will also remember this - canvassing for the Minister, Deputy Coveney in Cork. Then, we were talking about creating 100,000 jobs over five years. In the space of 12 years, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has created 800,000 jobs in this country. It is a phenomenal achievement and it needs to be recognised.

There are certain areas in which we can do better. One of those is the area of people with disabilities in the workforce. We have the lowest percentage in Europe of people with disabilities in the workforce. We have just over 30%, whereas most of our European partners are in the low to mid-50s. It is about what we can do and what the Department’s role is in encouraging businesses to take on people with disabilities long term. I have done a bit of work with the national learning network, and there are many connections between it and businesses to encourage people into the workplace. However, it is about continuing that beyond the work of the national learning network. What can we do there?

The Minister announced yesterday that he is developing a national wind strategy for offshore wind. Could he expand on that? I know he is looking at 80% of our electricity being made up of renewable energy by 2030. Could he expand on what was announced yesterday?

On energy and the challenges for businesses, I recently asked the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, about supports for energy grants for businesses. There is a small one at the moment, which is for €900 up to 2 kW. I said at the time that that would not boil the kettle. We have done an awful lot for homeowners and for farmers to support them to change their ways regarding renewable energy. However, we have not really done too much for businesses. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, indicated that a scheme will come forward later this year. My request is for the Minister's Department to emphasise the importance of retrospectively supporting businesses which have already made changes since the cost of living prices and energy prices have increased. My suggestion is to go back to the date of the start of temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, which was in September. A certain number of energy companies have spent an awful lot of money on solar panels and on changing their supply of energy without getting any sort of support from the Government.

If something is brought in later this year, I would like it recognised that when we brought in TBESS, which was a recognition of high energy costs, that we would also retrospectively look back at businesses that changed their ways of energy at that time.

There has been significant debate in the past few weeks, in particular about food inflation on which the Minister made a statement this morning. The primary producers are very concerned about where such a debate is going. There are initial talks of a proposed price cap. I ask the Minister to give his views and that of his Department on a proposed price cap. Does the Minister believe a price cap is appropriate? Does he believe we should bring forward legislation to ensure supermarkets publish their Irish profits on a continuous basis so that we have fair transparency within the food chain? Unfortunately, transparency between the food chain and the primary producer, in particular, who is really being squeezed by major multinationals is a huge issue. I ask the Minister to give his thoughts on the proposed price cap, if it will happen or whether he believes legislation should come forward to ensure the supermarket chains that control such a large proportion of the Irish market should have their Irish profits announced.

In response to Senator Ahearn, the jobs growth numbers have been phenomenal. As Deputy Bruton pointed out earlier, we deliberately have not set a definitive number for job growth for the next two years because Ireland is at full employment right now. We are seeing really strong jobs growth. We have also got to bed down the employment we currently have and support adding value in terms of the current workforce.

On the disability side, this is something on which I have very strong views. We are not as good as we should be. It is not acceptable that only 30% of people with disabilities in Ireland are employed. We set a target, as a country, that 6% of the workforce, roughly, would be people who have a disability and we are currently not reaching 3%. In some parts of the public sector the numbers are much better but in other parts they are not. I am going to do more in this area and we are looking at how we can do that. There are some fantastic examples in Ireland of young adults with a disability who are being trained and are working incredibly hard to get themselves into the workforce. We should support that and the employers who support them. That is across a broad range of disabilities. This is an area where we are not as good as we should be. We need to reflect on, and we are, what we can do more efficiently. I hope to be able to meet some of the stakeholders in this areas to work through with them the best approaches. There are some great projects - I have been involved in some of them - that can be replicated in other parts of the country to help people to make the transition into the workforce, and to focus on their abilities to do that.

I have Government sanction now to put in place an industrial strategy for the country in the context of offshore wind. We are not looking at offshore wind solely through a climate lens, although that is really important in terms of the decarbonisation of our economy and society. We are also focusing on what is an opportunity to provide up to 37 GW of energy generation offshore by 2050, and 7 GW by 2030 - 5 GW directly connected to the grid and another 2 GW, probably, on floating platforms that are linked to hydrogen generation. If one thinks about the magnitude of that between now and 2050 one is probably talking about €120 billion of capital investment on offshore infrastructure. We have to prepare our ports and grid for that, which is happening already but of course we need to accelerate the work. We need to ensure we are looking at strategic landbanks to take advantage of that from a cluster perspective in terms of creating new modes of employment around the country, on the back of that clean energy coming onshore whether that is for data centres or high-energy manufacturing like microchip manufacturing and so on. There is huge demand for clean power which we need to be central to an industrial strategy and a climate action strategy. We need to do both. In case anybody thinks we are only starting this process now and, therefore, nothing will happen for nine or ten months until the strategy is in place, we are working as we go. I am very much working with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, on ensuring that strategies are in place for port developments in places like Shannon-Foynes, Cork, Rosslare and other ports around the country to make sure we are gearing up the infrastructure that is needed for this scale of investment, which is really a new industrial revolution for Ireland. We are planning for that scale of activity but it will not happen by itself. We have made mistakes in the past. We are not as far ahead as we should be in this space. In the past the attainment of permits and foreshore licenses was a lot more time consuming than it should have been. The work is very much under way and my Department will have quite a significant role to play in planning the associated industrial strategy.

On the decarbonisation of companies and the associated grant aid, we must make sure that when we spend public money we change behaviour. On the question of whether a company which has already made the change would be the focus of grant aid when we are trying to get others to make the change, we need to think about that. We need to make sure the public money we spend actually decarbonises the economy and that the focus is on that. TBESS is different. We are effectively financially supporting companies that have seen a dramatic increase in their cost base through no fault of their own because of the war in Ukraine, whereas grant aid for decarbonisation within companies is about changing behaviour. There is a difference but I heard the point that has been made. It would be difficult to make the case to spend tens of millions of euro with companies that have already made that change when there are thousands of companies we need to encourage and incentivise to move into that space as well.

Supporting those companies will not deter the companies that have not changed already from changing.

It will because it means spending money on companies that have already made the change when perhaps we should focus that money on the companies that need to change but cannot afford to do so. I take the point that any policy must be fair.

On the queries by Senator Lombard, I am former Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine so I understand only too well the pressures on primary producers and, at times, the pressure they are put under by the retail sector in Ireland that is driven by a competitive market in the retail sector which has, by and large, functioned well in terms of consumer prices, and the EUROSTAT figures show how Ireland compares with other European countries. At the moment we have a particular issue where food inflation in supermarkets is running at double the rate of inflation. We need to be careful how we respond to that. First, we have got to get prices down to protect consumers. We have also got to make sure those price reductions are not at the expense of primary producers.

We must ensure the cost of the reduction in inflation that needs to happen in the food retail sector is not, in effect, transferred straight to primary producers. The latter are already getting too small a percentage of the final retail price, whether for a litre of milk, a pound of butter or a whole range of other products. Ireland is a big food producer. The primary food production sector, which includes farming, is a huge part of the Irish economy and central to our rural economy. It employs some 160,000 people. We need to protect the sector in the debate that is currently taking place. I assure the committee that we will very much be thinking about the farming and primary producer sector in any of the conversations we have with retail outlets in the coming days.

We now move to the second round of questions. Four members have indicated, starting with Deputy O'Reilly, and they have seven minutes each.

I welcome what the Minister has said about prices. When Government representatives make comparisons with consumer prices in the rest of Europe, it drives people up the wall. They are doing their shopping in their local area, not in France or anywhere else. I welcome what he said about getting prices down in a way that is not at the expense of primary producers. We will all be watching what comes out of the meeting today. The horticulturists in my area are very worried. They have particular concerns about energy prices because of the nature of their business. They also have a genuine fear that if retailers are encouraged, let us say, to reduce their prices, the cost of that will be passed on to them. I really welcome the Minister's recognition that prices need to come down, but not at the expense of primary producers.

I have two questions, the first on research, development and innovation and the second on the corporate sustainability directive. The White Paper on enterprise policy states that innovation is the best way to generate sustainable, long-term productivity growth. I agree 100%. However, when we look at the European and global indicators, they show that in some areas, Ireland is drifting in the wrong direction on the innovation score cards. We have moved in the right direction on the European innovation scoreboard, under which we are classed as a strong innovator. That is good. However, we are not yet an innovation leader like countries such as Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands and Sweden. The European scoreboard indicates our performance is at 118.9% of the EU average, but our lead over the average is becoming smaller. On the global innovation index, we have drifted from 12th to 19th place. Under the Institute for Management Development's world competitiveness indicator, we have dropped from seventh to 13th place.

The White Paper focuses significantly on the need for us to improve and become innovation leaders, which is a good ambition to have. I appreciate that research, development and innovation do not come directly within the remit of the Minister's Department. Last year, the budget under this heading for the Department was €255,076,000, which obviously is not the total Government allocation for research, development and innovation. Will he outline what needs to be done to ensure we break into the top echelon of countries according to the various innovation indices, which is where we are aiming to be? As I said, this issue is not directly under his remit but the need for research, development and innovation is heavily referenced in the White Paper. Presuming the target is to improve our score cards, how is it proposed to achieve that? We are doing well on some, which is brilliant, but we are drifting a little on others. The change is not huge but the concern is that if it is not turned around, it could become a huge drift.

The Deputy is right that people doing their shopping every week do not want to hear comparisons with what is happening to prices in France and Spain. I only raised that issue because we asked the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, to look at this and come back to us with recommendations as to suggestions that have been made on price caps, the State fixing prices and so on. It recommended against taking such actions. It referenced what is being done in other European countries and compared Ireland's food retail sector with the same sector in other European countries since 2015. The commission made the case that, by and large, competition has worked quite well for consumers here in terms of product choice.

I appreciate that, but I did not want to let the point go because it is something that really frustrates people. When people hear about prices elsewhere, what they hear is someone saying, "Well, at least we are doing better than such a place". That is grand but they do not do their shopping there; they do it in their local shop.

I hear the Deputy on that point. However, we are legislators and policymakers and we have to go a little deeper into the argument, while recognising the frustration of consumers.

I have given the Deputy the context, which is that the CCPC has recommended to me that we should not go down the route of price caps and so on. There are other things we can do, which the State could and should potentially look at in the future, if competition in this market is not working for consumers. Let us see how the retail sector responds today. Again, I want to be very clear that primary producers of food should not be the ones squeezed in this. They have seen significant input costs. They have seen some increases in the prices of the products they are selling, particularly in the dairy sector, although that has gone right back down again in recent months, but the profit margins for primary producers generally are not high. We need to protect that sector in the context of the debate we are having and in talking to senior executives and decision-makers in the retail sector.

I ask the Minister to be mindful of the time in responding to me.

Of course. On research, development and innovation, the European innovation scoreboard put Ireland in sixth place overall last year. We were considered a strong innovator, with our position improving from 11th the previous year. We are moving in the right direction. In 2021, gross expenditure on research, development and innovation increased to an estimated €4.686 billion, which is its highest level since the Central Statistics Office, CSO, began conducting surveys. This represents a 75% increase over the 2010 figure, which was just over €2.5 billion. The increase has been largely driven by business expenditure on research, development and innovation. Growing enterprise innovation is a key policy objective of the White Paper on enterprise policy to 2030. To achieve this, the strategy sets a target of 2.5% of GNI* to be spent by the public and private sectors combined on research and development by 2030.

Money talks on this issue. We are seeing the private sector spending a lot more on research, development and innovation. A big part of our trade success internationally has been adding significant value to products. Last year, for the first time, trade in goods and services in and out of Ireland was valued at more than €1 trillion. For a country with a population of just over 5 million, that is an extraordinary figure. It is driven by the multinational sector but also by growing Irish companies. We need to see more turnover and profit being driven back into research, development and innovation. We are seeing that in the private sector and we need to match it in the public sector by way of investment in universities, centres of excellence and so on.

Creating that pipeline is essential.

On the corporate sustainability directive, I mentioned earlier that we have bought into it. There is a big communications job for us to do with companies.

I had one very specific question on the directive.

I am afraid the Deputy is out of time. I am sticking to the seven-minute limit on this round.

The Deputy might send me a note with her question.

I thank the Minister.

My first point relates to grocery prices. There seems to have been a change in tone from the Government but not in the substance of its approach to this issue. As far back as February, the Taoiseach implored and pleaded with the sector for price cuts.

What I described as the “pretty, pretty please” approach has not worked. The Minister told us he is not happy with the situation. The Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, is convening a meeting of the retail forum and, who knows, he might bang the table at the meeting. Retailers have been given six weeks. There is a change in tone but the approach is still to ask. The ball is in the court of the retailers. and the Government is not directly intervening in the situation. If we do not see real, substantial change after the six weeks, will the Government keep asking or will it directly intervene on behalf of hard-pressed householders who are being pinned to the wall on this issue?

My second question goes back to the Indian nurses. The Minister said the issue of family reunification and visas for spouses is under review. Can he give indicate when we might have a definite proposal on that? I raised the issue of the QQI level 5 training that these nurses are being compelled or forced to undergo if they continue to work in the health service after the two years, which they have to pay for from their own pockets. These are qualified nurses. They are qualified way beyond QQI level 5, so why do they have to do the extra training? Why does the State force them to pay for that from their own pockets? The Minister did not comment on that. I ask him to please do so this time.

Finally, on the issue of the fishers, we are talking about excessive hours and not having sufficient rest or breaks. What does that mean in reality? It can mean 20-hour working days in the fishing grounds, particularly in respect of prawn. It means exhaustion in conditions that can be dangerous. There are accidents. There are people who develop serious back problems. Fishers lose digits as a result of the exhaustion. I will be blunt. It is not good enough that the Minister’s predecessor came to an agreement with the International Transport Workers’ Federation on this issue in April 2019 – more than four years ago - and in reply to my parliamentary question, he said it would be on the legislative programme for spring of last year. The Minister has come back to the committee today and told us it is under review. That is not good enough. I would like his feedback on that.

On the grocery prices issue, there has been a change of tone from Government. We want a response from the retail sector to the reality that price inflation is reducing across the economy but price inflation within the food retail sector is not. One is running at double the other. We need to understand, from a retail perspective, why that is. We want consumers protected in terms of retail prices. This is the very basics of running a household. The cost of feeding a family for the week should not be more than it needs to be in respect of the disruptions and pressures that we have seen over the past year or so. That is why the retail forum has been brought forward on the request of Government. We will have another retail forum in six weeks’ time and the Government will continue to work on this issue.

It is not all about the retail forum, by the way. We have also been engaging with the CCPC on this issue. We received advice from its officials on the approach that should or should not be taken. We will watch this issue closely. I know the kind of interventions the Deputy would like to see, which is for the State to effectively set prices. The CCPC strongly recommends against that approach. A number of other countries have looked at that and decided not to go ahead with it.

If I may-----

I just wish to ask a question. I understand what measures the State might take that the Minister does not support. I am asking that if we do not see real progress in six weeks, will the Government ask again or will measures be taken where the State directly intervenes? It does not have to be that measure, though it is the one I would advocate for, but other tools are available. Will the retailers be asked or will it be different if there is no progress within six weeks?

This is an issue that many families are discussing. They want to understand why the State would not intervene to set prices. There are potentially significant negative consequences by making that kind of intervention, which the Government has been warned against by the expert body that has examined this issue. That is why we are not going down that road for now, and that is not a road that we want to go down. Let us allow the forum to take its course today and see if there is a change and prices start moving in the right direction. We will have plenty of other opportunities to discuss options if that approach is not working.

Last week, we were told that the National Training Fund has a surplus of €1.5 billion. IBEC made six recommendations to us: introduce a national training voucher scheme; support dual investment in technology and talent; invest in industry-academia collaboration; incentivise more SMEs to take on apprentices; leverage the fund to implement lifelong learning; and future-proof Ireland’s openness and attractiveness as a destination for talent. I bring the Minister’s attention the fact that this fund, which again is a result of the booming economy, has a €1.5 billion and growing surplus at the moment. Perhaps there are opportunities for the Department to work with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to use that fund. The Minister may not know now, as it is probably not directly his responsibility.

I am quite concerned about the development of ports. A committee delegation visited Belfast. At the moment, Belfast is the only port in the country, we are told-----

To date. We have the national offshore wind delivery task force. There is so much to be done to get the other ports up to speed between planning and everything else. A lot of work went into the one in Belfast. We were told about that. A lot of infrastructure work took place to make the walls stronger to take the weight of the wind turbines, for instance. We need to move on in the development of our ports in Ireland. I do not see an awful lot happening on that. Again, it may not be directly the Minister’s area of responsibility, but it ties in with what he was talking about with the national industrial strategy for offshore wind. We do not have the ports. We do not have the infrastructure on land to facilitate gathering together the turbines and all that goes with that, or constructing the turbines and then towing them out to sea, which is another issue. Towing the turbines out to sea is a challenge because the ships that do that and look after them when they are out there are in huge demand throughout the world. I am not sure whether the Government has plans to ensure that we have that kind of technology and those ships in Ireland. They are very specialised, as the Minister knows.

At the moment, a work permits Bill is going through the House. I am not sure where it is right now or when it will come before us. I brought up a slight suggestion at the time and I will bring it to the Minister’s attention. It relates to intra-company transfers. We know that with critical skills work permits, if somebody comes to Ireland and his or her partner or spouse comes with them, that partner or spouse can work. With the intra-company transfer, that is not the case. A very small change could be made. I am told by some people in business that it is actually stopping fairly high-skilled people with a lot talent from coming to Ireland at the moment because their partner or spouse cannot work if they come here, unless they go through the ordinary route, which may not be easy. With the critical skills permit, they can but with an intra-company transfer, they cannot.

We need to move quickly on the issue of the shortage of mechanics. Some hauliers have said they may have to close because they cannot get mechanics to maintain their truck fleets. They are not eligible to be brought in at the moment. They are on the ineligible list and, therefore, the Minister might look at making a change in this regard fairly quickly.

Will he comment briefly on the issue of the Balance for Better Business initiative? I worked on this when I was at the Department of Justice. How is that going? Perhaps he can send me a note on it at some stage.

The National Training Fund is predominantly the responsibility of other Departments, to be fair. The Minister for Justice and Education are both involved with it. There is a big emphasis on apprenticeships and on the upskilling and training that is needed. We will continue to invest heavily in that space, which is badly needed.

To make offshore wind infrastructure happen in our ports, the Department of Transport is working with key ports, companies and authorities at the moment to try to get business plans in place so we can understand what are realistic aspirations. We need space, depth and adequate quaysides

We potentially have that in Shannon Foynes Port where there is huge space and depth for both wet storage and assembly on land. However, an investment in infrastructure of between €200,000 and €500,000 is required to make that happen. We will get more detail on it when the Shannon Estuary task force reports in early July. We will then have a very clear ask of Government on how we progress it.

It is a bit more complicated in Cork but, in some ways, more urgent. There are a number of locations in Cork harbour. Some of the options are owned by the Port of Cork but there are others in the Cork dockyard that are privately owned. We need to turn options into an actual plan for delivery and decisions around who is paying and what role the will State play. I want to progress this to get more definitive actions in place to realise the potential that exists. Other ports such as Rosslare Europort need to be considered as well. Otherwise, we are going to have the challenge of getting quayside to actually assemble this huge infrastructure, which is not easy to do. Ports on the west coast of the UK are pretty full. Infrastructure of this size cannot be towed for long distances, which poses real problems. We need to build port capacity on this island and, of course, in some of the key ports that I have mentioned. We very focused on doing so and I met the Minister for Transport on this issue last week

Regarding work permits, we are going to make some progress on intra-company transfer in the context of spouses and we are looking at the critical skills list, as I mentioned earlier.

Sitting suspended at 11.54 a.m. and resumed at 11.56 a.m.

The Deputy was very involved in the Balance for Better Business initiative. Ireland is now among the top ten countries in the EU for female board representation, in figures released by the Balance for Better Business group. This is an independent, industry-led, and Government-supported group with a secretariat provided by my Department. It is encouraging to see steady progress when it comes to the number of women at the board level of Irish business. It is less encouraging to see slower progress when it comes to key board and senior leader positions. The transition of two chairperson roles from women to men at the end of 2022 and the lack of new female chairpersons being appointed has led to a significant drop in the number of women at chairperson level. Now, only one of the 36 listed companies has a female chairperson, while representation of women at CEO level has also dropped from 11.1% in September 2022 to 8.3% in March of this year. There are some very good trends but there are also some backward steps. I had a really good meeting with a women in business group ten days ago and we spent approximately three hours teasing through how we can do better in this space. Clearly there is still work to do. There is in politics too, by the way, it is not just business. We need to increase female representation at all decision making levels, whether it is in policy and politics or whether it is business leaders.

I want to return to the issue of food pricing. With the Ukraine crisis last year, input costs for fuel, feed and fertiliser rose massively for primary producers, particularly in our agricultural sector. Most of those costs have not gone down to any degree. Dairy farmers are putting out a lot more slurry this year than they were last year when they were using more nitrogen. That is because of where costs have gone. Milk prices in December were at approximately 60 cent per litre and are now at approximately 40 cent per litre. Some co-ops have preferential agreements with farmers where they loan them money along the way and they are probably only paying 36 or 37 cent per litre. That is where the milk price stands at the moment. The big problem here is in the supermarket sector and what it does. Dairy products and bread have always been used as loss leaders to encourage people in. That continues to be the case today as we can see with the drop in the price of milk. A supermarket price war started two weeks ago with the advertising of the dropping of the price of milk. The supermarket sector is completely distorting distribution and supply at retail level. Let us consider Dungarvan, County Waterford for example. It has a population of only 8000. The town has Lidl, Aldi, Dunnes and two Musgraves outlets.

Tesco is now talking about going in. That is a market town. I am concerned that if another multiple enters it, those lovely, small shops and many trades and businesses will just not survive another entrance of that scale. We need to do more to clamp down on this. Tesco does not report its Irish profits separately. It amalgamates them into its group profits. There was an anecdotal comment years ago that Ireland was described by Tesco as the paradise of retail in Europe because it was enjoying such margins. Dunnes is a private company.

I ask the Deputy to refrain from naming specific companies.

A number are offering loyalty spends, where if people spend €50, they get a €10 voucher. That is discriminatory against people who do not have transport because they cannot take €50 worth of food with them. Single-person households cannot avail of that because they are probably not spending in that area. If they can afford to give a €10 discount on a €50 spend, one can see where their margins are going. We need to have a new policy for the retail framework in this country. As someone mentioned earlier, we should have some legislation to try to incentivise the old co-operative movements to get back into action again because we do not have enough large-scale competition. There is almost predatory pricing activity in the supermarket multiples.

In order to get onto the planograms of any large supermarket chain, producers have to commit to marketing spending every quarter on top of what they pay. They take in their goods and it is a matter of sale or return. Whatever is not sold at the end of the month is given back to them and the supermarket takes a credit on the account for that. Those are just the terms. Producers will be forced into consumer buying behaviour and so on. Every three months, the supermarket will pitch producers against another competitor to try to get the best price. This all drives down the prices that primary producers are able to get. It is also killing small retailers who will generally, per capita, employ more people than the large supermarkets. We need to seriously look at trying to do something in legislation about large retail multiples, how and where they get planning permission in the future, and the density of them allowed in our towns.

Deputy Stanton brought up ports. Last year, Waterford Port handled €1.7 billion in bulk imports into this country. It is hugely important for the importation of large bulk into the State. It will soon look to Government for funding to try to extend a jetty there. I ask the Minister to please keep an eye on that and see if we can give them something. It is not major money but we are trying to increase activity and this is important to our competitive position in future.

As the Deputy would expect, I am quite familiar with the food supply chain issues. I am certainly familiar with fuel, feed and fertiliser costs that farmers have had to endure in the past 12 months and even before that. As those input prices have fallen, we have also seen prices of agricultural products fall. With bonuses and so on, many farmers were getting more than 60 cent per litre for their milk for a period last year. That certainly has fallen now into the low 40s. That is a huge change to their margin. I have long been a strong advocate for strong producer groups, effectively co-operative type structures for primary producers of food, whether that is in beef or in other sectors, so that they can strengthen their negotiations, whether with meat factories or retail outlets, on price, on conditions of trade and so on.

We are setting up a new agrifood regulator that will look at more transparency in the food supply chain, which I think is necessary. We have seen a trend over the last decade or so of the percentage of retail price that primary producers get gradually being eroded. In some ways that is a slightly different debate to the one we are having today on whether consumers are getting a fair shake from food retail outlets with regard to where prices should be. We need to have both discussions in order that we do not damage or put even more pressure on primary producers in an effort to get prices down, when the margins that retailers are taking need to be the real focus. We also have to be transparent and fair on that too, given the scale of investment we have seen in Ireland by the retail sector. Let us work through those issues. I suspect it will be a focus of debate over the next few weeks.

I have visited Waterford Port.

To clarify a remark, I said €1.7 billion of imports. It is imports and exports.

That is fine. It is a big sector.

I know I have mentioned a number of ports in the context of offshore wind because of the natural depth of space that is there. There are obviously others too, including Waterford, Bantry, Arklow, Killybegs, Galway and Rossaveel. There are many strategic ports around the country that we need to focus on. If an appropriate case is being made for Waterford, the Government will look at that.

When the Minister talks about co-operatives, it is important to always keep in mind workers' co-operatives. I believe they are an important factor in the forthcoming legislation on which we hope to put some focus. In respect of the CSDDD, at the final meeting of the Ministers before the general approach was agreed, the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, spoke about the lack of provisions for gender in the Council draft. I felt that was an important intervention. He called on the European Parliament to fix the gap. Can the Minister, Deputy Coveney, put on the record that he will work to ensure that the corporate sustainability due diligence directive, which just drips off the tongue, will have clear gender provisions in the text that is agreed at the trilogues? This is important. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary's intervention and the fact that he highlighted this. I hope the Minister, Deputy Coveney, will take this opportunity to restate our commitment to ensuring that there are clear gender provisions in the text that is agreed.

I will give the official position on that. Ireland has been more ambitious for the proposal in a number of areas, including favouring a value chain-based approach, in recognition of the fact that adverse human rights and environmental impacts can occur throughout the value chain. We are seeking a greater focus on the gender aspects of the proposal, as women can suffer disproportionately from the consequences of adverse impacts, considering that the scope of the proposal should include relevant companies across all sectors of the economy, including regulated financial undertakings. The issues that the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, has raised already have my full support. We will try to progress that with the relevant European institutions.

That is excellent. That is a very welcome response. I thank the Minister for that.

I am glad the Deputy supports us on it.

It is important that we get this right and use whatever influence we have to ensure this directive is as strong as it can possibly be. To hop neatly from one thing to another, the Minister has referred several times to the advice from the CCPC. Can he share it with us if it is not published? If it is published, I apologise, because I have not seen it. I know the Minister only has a few minutes but if he wants to take us through the highlights of the CCPC advice about retailers, that would be welcome.

I do not know if I can publish it because it may be advice specifically for the Department but I will find out if I can. We can share it with the committee. It is essentially the CCPC giving us preliminary views on price controls in the retail grocery sector. We asked for some advice on that. It has effectively looked at what is happening in other countries and how that compares to Ireland. It has talked about price controls in the context of an emergency. In a state of emergency, where shortages of certain goods emerge, Governments may intervene to set prices or ration certain products. The decision to do this can only be taken by Government and such regulations require careful design and consideration.

As a member state, Ireland may regulate prices in the public interest under Article 4, or under section 62 of the Consumer Protection Act 2007, during a state of emergency. According to the European Commission, if a member state decides to regulate prices, such prices must be set by government rather than the retailers, and such regulations must ensure not to offset the price environment, and breach international market rules or competition. That is an outline of the factual position, and then-----

I am sorry to cut across the Minister. In his opinion, does such an emergency exist at the moment, or will we be in the emergency phase if, after the six weeks, which is a lot of grace the Minister is giving to these retailers, prices still have not come down? Would that constitute an emergency then? Whether or not the decision is taken to use that, does the Minister believe the conditions are right? If there is no emergency, those powers do not exist, in effect. However, if he believes there is an emergency, then there are grounds to consider the use of those powers. If the Minister tells me that he does not believe there is an emergency, then they are completely off the table, or does he think the emergency might exist in six weeks if there is no change?

The Deputy asked me to go through the CCPC response. It goes on to look at price controls, and gives its preliminary views on that:

The CCPC recognises that recent price increases have had a significant impact on consumers, and many governments have decided to respond with targeted income supports for those hardest hit [which clearly we have done here]. However, the CCPC has not seen any evidence or analysis to support the suggestion that an emergency or market failure exists in the retail grocery market, and that price controls would provide a consumer benefit.

I am just giving the Deputy the experts' view here, and then, in the context of-----

I do not mean to say the Minister is not an expert, but what is his view?

I do not want to read the whole thing to the Deputy. I will have to enlarge it, because my eyesight is not great.

The clear advice here is that the State intervening in the market by setting a maximum price can have serious and negative impacts, including reputational damage, impact on supply and supply chains, potentially reducing competition, and impacting on jobs. In other words, there are, or may be, significant unintended consequences of intervening in the market which operates on the basis of supply, demand and competition, or at least it should. If we intervene in that, we create unintended consequences, particularly for smaller retailers, some of which were referred to earlier. Larger retailers have more pricing options.

The other thing is that one gets into a very complex area in terms of what products one chooses, and what form of those products one chooses. If one looks at things like bread, for example, there are dozens of different options-----

No, I appreciate that. However, if the advice is in the context of an emergency, my question was specifically regarding whether the Minister thinks those conditions exist right now, and if not, might they exist in six weeks?

At the moment, our advice from the CCPC, which we are talking to actively on this, and to which we will continue to talk in the next few weeks, is that the conditions for a state of emergency are not there. Effectively, what the Government has chosen to do is to have a direct discussion with retailers, and to try to effectively ensure that competition should work as it is meant to with regard to food price inflation following general inflation, and the numbers coming down. If that is not happening, then the Government has to look at other options which are available to us, as other countries have done.

I would like to say that there are a number of examples of countries which have looked at price interventions and have decided not to go there, for what I think are very good reasons. It is the position we also hold. We do not think that is the appropriate intervention for now.

I thank the Minister.

I thank everyone for their contributions. I have tried to be as flexible as I could. This concludes our consideration of the matter today. I would like to thank the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and his officials for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter.

Top
Share