Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2023

The Circular Economy: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members who will participate in the meeting remotely that they must do this from within the Leinster House complex. Apologies have been received from Senator Marie Sherlock.

Today we are going to discuss the circular economy and funding and supports that are available to enterprise to deliver circular economy initiatives. The circular economy is a model of production and consumption that seeks to break the link between economic growth and environmental degradation. It focuses on extending the life cycle of the product in contrast to the linear take-make-waste approach. It is regenerative by nature and aims to separate growth from the consumption of finite resources. I am pleased that we have the opportunity today to consider this and other related matters further with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, with special responsibility for communications and the circular economy, Deputy Ossian Smyth, who is accompanied by Ms Catherine Higgins, assistant principal at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Before we start I must explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practices of the Houses with regard to reference that witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The opening statement of the Minister of State has been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I now invite the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to make his opening remarks.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I thank the committee for inviting me to speak here today. I also thank Ms Catherine Higgins for assisting me. She is one of the civil servants in the Department who has responsibility for the circular economy.

It is just a year now since the enactment of the Circular Economy Act and it is an opportunity to review the progress that has been made in the last year and to discuss the priority areas where we now need to focus our attention.

I think we are all agreed that the linear economic model of take-make-waste is environmentally and economically unsustainable. The transition to a circular economy offers an alternative. In a circular economy, waste and resource use is minimised, and the value of products and materials is maintained for as long as possible. In a circular economy, when a product has reached the end of its life, its parts can then be used again and again to create further useful products.

A circular economy normalises the efficient use, reuse and ultimate recycling of our material resources. Materials can be designed to be less resource intensive, and waste can be recaptured as a resource to manufacture new materials and products. By making the transition to a circular economy we can move away from the model of managing and disposing of waste towards preserving resources. It also has the potential to significantly reduce our dependency on primary resource extraction and complex global supply chains, thereby strengthening State and business resilience in the face of supply shocks.

Circular economy practices and improvements in sustainability can result in real benefits for business and enterprise. Therefore, it is important that our policy and regulatory framework support the business community in making the circular transition, not just in terms of direct funding but also through the provision of funding for research and innovation, delivering on the potential for increased cost savings, improved resource efficiency and new business opportunities.

Meeting our climate targets also requires a transformation in the way we produce and use goods. Therefore, making less or making with fewer resources will play a key role in climate action and reduce our carbon emissions.

In recent years and in response to the triple global emergencies we face in climate, biodiversity and pollution, the EU has ramped up its ambition and delivery of new legislation in the circular economy space. In addition to textiles and eco-design, negotiations are under way on a new packaging regulation, food waste prevention, and critical raw materials. Further legislative proposals have been announced on end-of-life vehicles and more are promised for waste electrical and electronic equipment.

We are making progress at a national level as well as at EU level. In line with the evolution of EU and UN environmental policy, the waste action plan for a circular economy was published in September 2020. The first circular economy strategy and the circular economy programme were published in November 2021, and in July 2022. The Circular Economy Act completed its passage through the Oireachtas in 2022. Over the past two years, we have put in place the necessary policy and regulatory framework required for a successful circular transition. But now that the policy and regulatory framework are in place, I intend to build on that momentum. In November last year, I launched, with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, Ireland's first national food waste prevention roadmap, which is a key step in steering our efforts towards achieving the goal of reducing food waste by 50% by 2030. I also announced the second call for funding under the circular economy innovation grant scheme, bringing total allocations to date under the scheme to €1.25 million. I intend to launch the third round of funding under the scheme before the end of this year.

The new circular economy fund was established under the Act in July, signalling a clear commitment to further integration of circular economy principles in practice. July also saw the introduction of incentivised waste collection in the commercial sector and, from January next year, waste collection service providers will be obliged to provide all households with a separate collection for biowaste, or what is known as a brown bin, by the end of the year.

From 1 September 2023, I introduced a levy of €10 for every tonne, or 1 cent per kilogram, of municipal waste recovered in Ireland or exported abroad for recovery. I also announced a corresponding increase in the existing landfill levy to €85 per tonne. These levies will encourage more recycling and reuse, and greater efforts to segregate waste at source.

While we have made progress, there are further issues that I intend to address. Work is continuing on the next iteration of the circular economy strategy. The next version of the strategy will have a statutory basis and, in line with the requirements under the Act, it will include targets for specified sectors, delivering on the potential to make significant contributions to the circular transition.

I am also very keen to see the issue of disposable vaping products addressed. The recent public consultation survey that sought views on a potential ban on disposable vapes indicated that a clear majority favour such a ban and I am working to find the best way forward to address this environmental threat.

I am also committed to the introduction of a new regulatory system for end of waste and byproducts. End of waste is one of the pivotal issues for our circular economy ambition in Ireland and a key area for industry. The publication of a sectoral roadmap for the construction sector, as part of the work of the construction sector group, is also a priority.

Work is continuing on the preparation of a new green public procurement strategy and action plan, which will replace the current national policy, Green Tenders, that was launched in 2012. The draft plan is currently the subject of a public consultation process and I hope the final version will be approved by the Government by the end of this year.

February 2024 will see the introduction of Ireland's deposit return scheme for plastic bottles and aluminium cans.

That will be the final step in this very exciting project. It has been a major undertaking for the beverage industry, retailers and the deposit-return scheme company, Re-turn. This is the first such system across Britain and Ireland and it is an example of how we can all embrace circularity in our everyday lives.

I am hopeful that 2024 will also see the delivery of two key circular economy projects. The first is a national circular economy platform to provide an authoritative source of information about the circular economy. If we are to embrace the circular economy and effect real behavioural change, we must raise awareness of circular economy practices in society in general. The establishment of a national circular economy platform will achieve that objective. The establishment of a centre of excellence for circular manufacturing and innovation is a priority. Members of this committee have been supportive of this approach. Embedding circularity in business and enterprise is fundamental to a successful circular transition and one of the areas in which we can make the most impact. Support for business and enterprise in making that transition is a priority for my Department and across government.

An Cathaoirleach

We shall now move to members who want to speak. If they wish to contribute remotely, they should use the raise-hand icon and take down the hand when finished. First is Deputy Louise O'Reilly. She has 14 minutes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State and Ms Higgins for their contributions. I have a couple of questions for them. As has been said, the committee is very positively disposed towards this endeavour on the part of the Government. If anything, we would like to see more of it, which is always a good thing.

What role could employee-owned businesses, which I might call workers' co-operatives, play in the circular economy? I am thinking about places like Preston and Ayrshire, where community-wealth-building models have been adopted. Some of the enterprises involved are employee-owned businesses or workers' co-operatives but their focus is on recycling. They are very much operating at local level and are not massive. They work hand in glove with local authorities. Co-operatives do not represent a new form of business but the model lends itself very well to the circular economy because it is local. There is a lot of activity in this space but it is very erratic because of how it is funded. Much of the funding is through community employment schemes and so on, so the businesses cannot plan for the longer term. In considering this, does the Minister of State envisage a role for employee-owned businesses or workers' co-operatives, and also social enterprises? Liberty Recycling and such organisations do really good work, but I am wondering whether they are part of it. Is it all on a much grander scale?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank the Deputy for the question and for telling me the committee supports the circular economy. Sometimes, circular economy actions are seen as either banning or attracting things rather than presenting a positive opportunity for business. I am happy to be here today because it is a new emerging sector. Many of the jobs and much of the investment will be very local, spread around the country. I want to talk about the community schemes the Deputy mentioned. She mentioned Liberty Recycling, for example. The Sunflower Recycling project, off the North Strand, is a similar one that she may have heard of.

We have a circular economy innovation grant scheme. To get businesses and the public to move towards a circular economy, we need to have incentives, information and education. We need positive things to help people to get from A to B. The way the circular economy Act was structured last year was such that there would be levies on various things, such as plastic bags, landfilling and burning waste through incineration, and that the money would go into a circular economy fund. This fund has been set up only recently. The idea is that the money would be ring-fenced, taken out of the Exchequer and spent only on things that support the circular economy, such as a community scheme.

The circular economy innovation grant scheme, which is what has been running up to now, will be revised now that there is more funding behind it. It typically funds smaller, community-based grant schemes. The typical level of funding is €50,000 to €100,000. The scheme has funded a range of projects around the country, typically community based and not for profit. It has funded projects on the Aran Islands and in the inner city. There certainly has been a good geographic spread. The grants have certainly not been focused on money-making activities; rather, they have been focused on community areas.

The Enterprise Ireland scheme is more focused on the bottom line, business expansion and so on, but our circular economy innovation grant scheme is more focused on the community and non-profit sector.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State. He should always keep social enterprises in his thoughts as well as workers' co-operatives. Incredible work is being done on a shoestring. The organisations based on the social enterprise model have a massive role to play. There may be people waiting to be asked when the net could be spread a little wider. Social enterprises should always be kept to the forefront of the mind of the Minister of State, if possible.

How does the model of the circular economy in general fit with the Government's public procurement model? We know how State contracts are issued and the criteria involved. When it comes down to the final analysis, the lowest bid wins. That is policy. I have seen this in operation, as I am sure the Minister of State has. He mentioned that work is under way on a new green procurement strategy and action plan. As part of this, has the Minister of State spoken to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform about seriously reforming public procurement to ensure the circular economy, sustainability, workers' rights, local businesses and the local economy can be prioritised such that the State will harness its massive spending power and use it as a driver rather than always going for the lowest common denominator? I am sure the Minister of State, like me, has heard the phrase "Buy cheap, buy twice". Instead of going for quality and decent local jobs, there is a race to the bottom all the time. I understand the need for value for money – we all get that – but something is being lost if the circular economy is not going to be genuinely central to the Government's public procurement strategy.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Government procurement is a huge part of the market. If the Government decides to start spending its money in a particular way, that can affect the market overall. Second, the Government should be leading by example. If the State is not spending its money in a circular way but trying to tell the rest of society, including private society, individuals, businesses and community groups, that they should follow circular economy principles, it is not convincing for people. The State needs to lead by example.

The Deputy said that public procurement works by always awarding the lowest bidder. I would take issue with that. There are three factors in classic procurement, the first being to get a good price for the State, the second being to get good quality, ensuring the goods are up to spec, and the third being to spend the money transparently so there is no suspicion of corruption and favouritism. Added to these in recent years has been the idea of strategic procurement, meaning that when the State is buying something, it does it in a way that advances its strategies and policies. For example, one must ask whether social procurement helps the local area, reduces unemployment in the area or provides skills training for people working in the area. With green procurement, one must ask whether it is good for the environment. The ability to put those factors into the conditions and criteria for a bid is supported by European law. It is normal practice across Europe, and it is up to me to promote that and ensure procurement takes it into account.

We have a green public procurement strategy that dates back to 2012. I have updated it. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has worked with the Office of Government Procurement to come up with a new green procurement strategy. That is out for public consultation. The aim is to ask the public sector not to rule out renovated, upcycled or repaired equipment when buying. You do not always have to buy new. Up to now, some Departments have had a policy of buying only new equipment. That is obviously contrary to what we are trying to do. What I found when I looked into this was that the private sector was ahead of the State in some areas. I found there were parts of the private sector that were very happy to buy renovated ICT equipment, for example, but this could not be sold to a public body or to some public bodies. Our new strategy, the green public procurement strategy, is out for public consultation.

I am enthusiastic and happy that it is out there. I am looking for comments on it from the public, businesses and community groups on whether they believe it is a practical approach. Public procurement has to support a circular economy and will continue to do so.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

To follow on from that, I read recently in the newspapers that Irish hospitals discard 50 million plastic aprons every year. Nobody disputes that they are necessary and a natural part of the health service. Dr. Mary O'Riordan and her cousin Lisa O'Riordan of HaPPE Earth are trying to engineer a more sustainable solution to this with their aprons. Can the Minister of State point to successes in the public sector? What he says is right, some of the private sector, not all of it by any means, but some elements are leading the way and are ahead of the public service on this. Can the Minister of State point to examples within the public service where that leadership role is being provided? The public service obviously is going to be the biggest consumer of goods in certain spaces, such as the medical space. Are there successes that we could look at as examples of where the State is not just talking about the circular economy but actively pursuing it in regard to procurement and other policies?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

There are. The Deputy mentioned the health sector, for a start, in regard to aprons and so on. There is a tradition or culture in the health sector of treating medical waste very carefully, putting patient safety first and effectively incinerating everything. Until recently there was an incinerator in every Irish hospital with a chimney. Every type of waste went into the incinerator and was burnt. There is a big cultural challenge to get past that. As an example of the success stories in hospitals, the use of mattresses has changed dramatically. There was a period where mattresses had a very short shelf life, were made of foam and were incinerated after a few months. The same was happening in prisons. In every prison or hospital in Ireland there were stacks of mattresses that had a very short shelf life. The hospitals looked at this. They were approached by various circular economy businesses and came up with a more sustainable approach to their mattresses.

The Deputy mentioned the case of aprons. I met one of the O’Riordans, I do not recall whether it was Mary or her cousin-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Very impressive.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

-----who showed me their product. I also visited a facility in Waterford where they were taking old pieces of PPE including facemasks, simply heating them up to a temperature at which no bugs, bacteria or viruses could live on them, and then melting them down into plastic and creating new PPE or sports equipment. I met the head of procurement in the HSE, John Swords, which is the largest procurement body in the State. As such, it has a huge role to play in this. It is turning the ship around on this and there are changes in how the health sector views procurement. It is particularly difficult for the health sector but it is making changes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

It is and that is why I picked the health sector as an example because it is an area with great scope. However, as the Minister of State says, it has difficulties with infection control. You can always be guaranteed that when opening the seal on something that it is going to be medically clean.

An issue was raised by another Deputy a couple of months ago in the Dáil regarding the right to repair and whether there is scope to include a statutory right to repair as part of the warranty on goods for sale. It exists in some countries. My understanding is that it works reasonably well. For some reason it was put forward as an amendment and was rejected by the Government at the time. Without getting into the details of that, what are the Minister of State’s own thoughts on the right to repair? If we were to come at it again from a different angle, would the Government be disposed towards considering it? For me it is fundamental that if something breaks and can be fixed, it should be fixed, and fixed by the manufacturer in some instances. However, there is a way of thinking whereby if even a small piece of an item is broken then it must be discarded. To try to have a phone repaired is futile, and there is no statutory right to have it repaired. Does the Minister of State have a view on whether it would be too onerous to introduce, or could it be partially done? Is there any scope for that right to be included as a statutory right?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

It is important that we increase the amount of products that are repaired and that people have a right to have products repaired. Society has obviously changed from a time when it was completely normal for our parents’ generation to get things fixed. Many of the businesses that were involved in renovating have disappeared. Some young people would not even be aware that shoes can be resoled or reheeled. We are in a sense at phase 2 of the right to repair. At European level the rules were set that all manufacturers had to provide their manuals and spare parts after the products were made. For example, a manufacturer could not produce a car and then refuse to provide the parts afterwards. Manufacturers also have to provide the manuals on how to fix it. That was the first step. Now the EU is legislating on a right to repair, and I am involved in the discussions, that will extend to such things as durability ratings. When a person goes into a shop and tries to pick a washing machine, how does he or she guess which one will last longest, which one will last for five years and which will last for ten or 15 years? They can only do that is if there is independent testing, whereby somebody is testing these machines and coming up with a rating. If that rating is put on the appliance stating that this is a ten-year machine or a 15-year machine, then the consumer can make an informed choice in terms of one costs a bit more but will last longer. Up until now that has just be based on the brand or word of mouth. That will make a change. We already have energy ratings on products so that an item is rated A, B or C depending on how much electricity it uses. The next level of that will be ratings for durability and repairability. That will make a huge change. Those changes are happening quite quickly at EU level and are at an advanced stage. My reluctance to bring in those laws before the legislation appears at EU level is because I would have to have them approved by the EU to ensure they were not an interference in the Single Market. Anything I can do locally that improves the right to repair and that is legal within the EU framework, I am happy to do it.

Two issues put people off repairing. They do not know where to go.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is huge. That is a massive part of it. Members of any residents' association Facebook groups will often see posts with questions on how to get a washing machine fixed. Half the replies will be people saying "Just throw it out, you can get one for €99 in a certain shop". That is common. There is a real appetite for repairing.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy's time is up. The Minister of State can finish up.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

My apologies, my time is up.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

My television broke down. I wanted to know where I could find a television repair shop. That was a normal thing when I was a child. It was actually very hard to find that. A map is needed. There is a map on a website called repairmystuff.ie and that needs more help and support from central government. It is run by one of the local authorities. That is a signpost. I believe that going into a mapping app and being able to see little flags near where you live saying “This is a person who will repair this product”. That is the first step in being able both to provide local employment and to help people to do the right thing. I thank the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach

The next slot is the Fine Gael slot and the group has 14 minutes.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I welcome the Minister of State and commend him on the work he does. Last week we heard from the local enterprise offices, LEOs, and Enterprise Ireland that in their view sustainability is the key to long-term competitiveness. In my view, the circular economy is the key to cracking it. I worry that we are going backwards on all of the big targets being set in this sphere. Our recycling rates have stagnated, our reuse rates are the second-lowest in Europe, our waste volumes are all going in the wrong direction in respect of food, packaging, fast fashion, building and waste. The problem we face now is that we have the high-level strategies with some good examples of individual initiatives but the piece in between, the concrete tools that would change behaviour, are too weak.

I have not had the chance to read the Department's work on green procurement but the EPA reported last year that only 17% of procurement contracts have green criteria. The Department should be saying this will increase to 50% and that people should be accountable. In my experience, when I was trying to do the same as the Minister of State, a procurement office would say that if no one comes to it looking for procurement with green criteria it does not do it. It was falling between two stools. It is very important that the Department influence green procurement, which probably drives close to €20 billion or more. This could be done with the criteria if they really had teeth. This has to be a whole-of-government decision and not a decision in one corner of Government that then shouts across at others hoping they will do something.

We need to bring the circular economy, along with biodiversity, into the climate action plan. It was interesting that when the citizens' assembly reported it recommended to the Oireachtas that these wider environmental challenges which are embraced by the circular economy, including material use and repair, should be embraced in the climate approach. In other words, the Taoiseach should hold people to account and every Department should be accountable, with targets set that have some obligation on respective Ministers to report. It is a must if we are to get this to move along.

I am interested to see what other tools the Department can develop. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage came before another committee to discuss whether we have design to minimise embodied carbon, maximise the recovery of waste and see good intelligent design for recovery. The Department did not see this as its job. It was waiting for someone in Europe to tell it what to do. This struck me as a real problem. We all know that 80% of environmental damage is baked in at design stage. If we do not tackle it at the planning and design stage upstream on the construction sector, and if the architects and procurers are not setting these standards, it will not come out at the other end of the pipe. Many building sites throw everything into the one skip where recovery is not possible. What was also striking last week was that Enterprise Ireland, having said that sustainability was the key, indicated low take-up in its programmes for green energy.

We need to create sectoral compacts. I know the Department will produce targets. Targets are one thing. We have targets for recycling and we are not improving. I do not know whether we have a target for reuse but we are the second worst in Europe. Targets are one thing but it is about trying to force the players in a sector, for instance, everyone from the primary producers to the consumers in the food sector. In France one quarter of supermarket produce has to be packaging free. There are many things that could be done at different points on the supply chain if we could get to the point where there was an agreed compact, whereby all of the players in the food sector or the construction sector started to sign up to a compact that would be overseen. We have seen the success of Business in the Community and its energy and climate commitments. Momentum is building among the leaders but it is not wide enough.

My contribution has been more by way of comments than questions. We need to dig this into the weft and weave of sectors. It is very superficial, with high-level targets and admiration for a few individual initiatives, but we do not have the real momentum for change. This has not yet caught on.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank Deputy Bruton. He is a former Minister with responsibility for this area and he has ongoing interest in this area. Deputy Bruton said he thinks that while targets and strategies are being set we are not actually managing to meet them in practice and that we are not likely to meet our targets. We are meeting our recycling targets at present. We are in compliance. The question is whether we will meet our 2025 or 2030 targets on our current trajectory.

One of the very practical things happening is the deposit return scheme. I imagine it was on Deputy Bruton's radar when he was Minister. It will produce a large volume of very well segregated plastic and aluminium for recycling in Ireland. Incredibly, every year we use 1.9 billion bottles and cans in a one-off way. I expect that 90% of these will come back through this scheme. It is a well understood scheme that happens in other countries. It will have an impact on the bottom line of our recycling targets. It has to impact it.

Something else that will dramatically change the numbers is the fact that I have mandated that since 1 July all businesses must be supplied with green and brown bins. A total of 70% of the waste in the black bin of a commercial enterprise should be in a green bin or a brown bin. Since July they are being provided with green and brown bins by their collectors. It is in their financial interest and bottom-line interest to segregate their waste. I expect we will have much better streams of segregated plastic and food waste as a result of this. These two measures will immediately affect the bottom line in next year's figures.

Deputy Bruton mentioned building and construction. This is the largest area for the circular economy. It is not an area in which we are doing well. We think of Ireland as a country that does not do a lot of mining or extraction but in fact we extract a lot of aggregates and clay. We do a lot of quarrying. Typically on an Irish building site whatever is on site is demolished, the clay is removed, everything is taken off-site in trucks and often taken to an old quarry to backfill. Then the new materials required are extracted afresh and brought up in more trucks to the site. When I go out to builders and speak to them about this on site they say they want to change this. They know it would make sense not to have to do this. They know it would save them money. They know from their experience in other European countries that this is not what happens there. There are hubs in a city where the spoil from one construction project is used in another. The primary barrier to doing this is their ability to obtain a licence from the EPA in a reasonable period of time to allow them to move materials from one site to another. It is not just a matter of deregulating. We cannot just go to the EPA and tell it to let everybody use everything. We know from the mica scandal that it is very important that materials are properly tested, segregated and classed before they are used again on another project.

I will shortly release new regulations for the EPA that specifically refer to this. It will be open for consultation in the coming weeks. The EPA is being reformed under new primary legislation to offer guaranteed determination times, similar to the work being done with An Bord Pleanála. This is our approach to solving the problem of the difficulty of obtaining environmental permits to reuse construction waste on site. It is the biggest opportunity for improvement in the circular economy at a time when we are working on the national development plan and building 30,000 homes a year and a lot of other infrastructure. It is important that we get the circularity of our construction to work.

Deputy Bruton mentioned sectoral targets. As he knows, the new circular economy strategy will contain sectoral targets. This is because they are in the circular economy Act. He also mentioned the importance of eco-design, which is true. A product has to be designed in such a way that it can be reused. It is very difficult to come back to a product afterwards to try to reuse it or recycle it when it has not been designed in that way. CIRCULÉIRE is part of Irish manufacturing research. It is a group of experts who provide a facility for research on circular design. It has come to me with a proposal to expand its offering and create a centre of excellence for eco-design in Ireland. The idea is that a company could go to it with a proposal for how it wants to redesign its product to make it more circular.

It would have the facilities, laboratories and so on to design and test it and would also provide the information and education on that.

The Deputy mentioned having sectoral compacts to sign up to. That is happening already. Repak has the plastic pledge. There is also a food waste pledge. I am not sure how that is branded. These things are happening and the plastic pledge has been around for a number of years.

Deputy Richard Bruton

This would be more. In the Netherlands the state promotes it. It is not optional. It is not like business in the community where they say that the leaders will join in. It is much more saying this is a national effort under the food heading where we will improve the footprint of our producers, improve the way we process, improve packaging, improve retailing, and improve our labelling and information as well as our repair and recovery. It is the whole nine yards as a national initiative.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I would be very happy to look at what the Dutch are doing. The Office of Public Procurement reports to me. I have responsibility for the environment division, which the Deputy formerly had, and the circular economy, but I also have the procurement function under me. I have asked the Office of Government Procurement to form alliances with its Dutch counterparts which it did. I want them to do exchange work with each other on a range of areas, including in the circular economy because I knew the Dutch were quite advanced in that area. I have also worked through the Dutch Embassy on that. There has been considerable communication between them. I will ask them to look at the sectoral compact approach in the Netherlands as the Deputy has suggested. It is worth looking at that.

It is important to capture the enthusiasm of people who want to lead before the regulations come in. I am seeing a pattern all the time whereby I announce I am about to regulate for something and then I see people jumping the gun and doing it themselves in their sector out of their own enthusiasm to do it. That provides a testbed and information. It is a very positive thing. Any time anybody does that, I encourage it.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I welcome the Minister of State. It is great to have him in. I have been trying to get him in for a couple of years and so it is great that we finally got a meeting with him on the agenda. He has done a lot and is leading the way. We have never had a Minister of State with responsibility for the circular economy before us, so it is super that we finally have one now.

Deputy O'Reilly mentioned the hospital stuff. I also want to raise the issue of wheelchairs. Plastic aprons are one thing, but wheelchairs, commodes, Zimmer frames, lifts for stairs and all that stuff are treated as single use. It is absolutely insane. There are mountains of it. I broke my leg last year and I still have a wheelchair, three pairs of crutches, a commode and two Zimmer frames - and I just broke my leg. It is madness. I have friends who work in the sector, including Cystic Fibrosis Ireland and other charities involved with people who have physical disabilities. They have said that if anybody gets cured or passes away, the stuff just piles up. If we think about all the energy it takes to extract the ore, make all those metals and then process them, it seems mad that these items cannot be reused. Of course, I know they need to be clean but we are able to clean things. It is not as if we need to invent a system to sanitise things again. I would love to hear if we can do anything with the HSE on that. It might save it some money given its current overspend.

Last week, representatives from Enterprise Ireland and the local employment offices, LEOs, appeared before the committee. I felt very disappointed with the lack of urgency or any sense of taking anything to do with the circular economy seriously when it comes to upskilling small businesses. I had come from the Business in the Community Ireland event which Deputy Bruton mentioned, and that was inspiring. It seems that the big private sector companies which have the time and the money to pay people to do it right are doing really well. We have a model there; it can be done. However, I do not see the LEOs upskilling the businesses or helping them in the way they need to help them reduce their waste. Even though I believe funding is available for reducing energy and stuff, I would like to see what they are doing about the circular economy. It was not even mentioned last week when they came in. Maybe they need more supports and more experts in that field to get them to do it.

Since so much plastic is recyclable, is there anything we can do? I think the Minister of State is going to do great things. For example, Killarney has a brilliant new initiative where all coffee shops have signed up to the use of reusable cups, which is fantastic. The only thing is that all those cups are made from virgin plastic. I would love to see that any new initiatives that come about as a result of the circular economy are encouraged only to use recycled plastic as opposed to virgin plastic because we know all virgin plastic comes from oil. That seems like an awful waste since we have so much plastic recycling.

What is the status of our recycling of plastic in Ireland? I looked into it a few years ago and we were exporting all our plastic to Scotland to be washed and turned into pellets, and we were then reimporting it to turn it back into products. It would be great if we could do more of our own plastic recycling here. People are becoming sceptical because they believe it is all going to China and there is no point in recycling anyway. We need to help people to have a bit more faith in recycling being part of the solution.

There is a brilliant QQI level 6 white goods field service engineer course running in Meath. It is the first of its kind in Ireland. I would love to see the ETBs getting support to roll that out across the country. It is essentially training repair people. I know a guy who fixes hoovers and a guy who fixes washing machines. I would love to see them in some way lauded as the heroes of the circular economy. Are supports available for them to take on apprenticeships? They have the skills; I do not care what certificates they have. I do not want it to be an issue where they do not have qualifications so we cannot recognise the 30 years of skills they have in fixing things. I would love to see that being valued.

A bugbear of mine is the big festivals. I have done tent collections for Calais and other places. This might not be a huge part of the waste. However, we are normalising single use and waste being totally acceptable in society if we think it is okay for these big festivals to come in and all the 20 somethings and 30 somethings are told they can get away with leaving all their stuff behind because that is what is still happening. I am thinking of Electric Picnic to name but one festival. I know the owner of that site banned vaping which is great. He also banned cash and many other things. I have met the man. He is getting away with charging a lot of money to vendors and punters, and he is getting away with dumping tonnes of waste into landfills in Laois every year. Given the climate emergency and the need to encourage a circular economy, we need to look at what we can do to stop the normalisation of people walking away and leaving all their stuff behind.

An Cathaoirleach

There is no evidence that the company in question has dumped rubbish.

Senator Róisín Garvey

That is what it does. I spoke to the owner.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should not mention any specific company if that is possible.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Okay. I did not name the company; I named the festival.

An Cathaoirleach

A festival obviously-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

I purposely did not name the company.

I have another idea. I love the waste management sites. I am like a Womble. I have got bikes, food mixers and televisions from them. I have even made a bicycle-powered smoothie maker out of stuff I got from landfill sites. However, there is no setup there to encourage people to come onto site to reuse such things as timber and bicycles. The lads who work there are great, but there is nobody employed to enable people to come, take the stuff out and reuse it. That practice is actually discouraged because their job is to take the waste in. I would love to see a take-away day. I know people need to get special permission from the local authority if they want to take anything out and it can be very cumbersome. We have a great women's support group in Clare, the Clare Haven Horizons. After a long time, they got permission to take furniture and clothes from landfill. They upcycle them all and it is a brilliant mission initiative. However, it was quite complicated to allow them to do that. Unless people know one of the lads and they turn a blind eye, people are not allowed to go in and take wood, bicycles and other things. So much stuff is dumped that could be reused.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not going to tell the Senator what to do with her time, but if she wants an answer from the Minister of State, she has only 30 seconds left.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I have a second round as well.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The Senator mentioned single-use Zimmer frames and so on. People are really shocked when they are told by the hospital not to bring these items back and just keep them or throw them away. That is part of the culture in the health sector with everything being focused on infection control. It would be worth inviting a procurement official from the Department of Health to appear before the committee to discuss that.

The Senator mentioned virgin plastic being used for reusable cups and so on. I take her point on that and we will look into it further. She also mentioned festivals.

A festival is a closed loop and a brilliant place to try out something to see what works. Some of the festivals do deposit return schemes on cups to make sure they come back. I noticed that Electric Picnic banned disposal vapes this year and, most importantly, stopped selling them on site. Festivals depend on generators that are run on diesel but they have the opportunity to switch. There are many different things they could do. I see a lot of greenwashing in some festivals but I see some festivals, such as Body & Soul, which are making very substantial differences and really attempting to make the changes.

Local authorities license these festivals. They could attach conditions. I would like to prepare a template set of conditions for a green festival and then ask county councils and county councillors to impose those conditions on new events stating, for example, that festivals must operate a deposit return scheme and should not sell disposable vapes on site. It would just be basic stuff ensuring that we can have much greener festivals. People are shocked by the level of rubbish that they leave behind.

Bring centres tend to be run by local authorities. The conditions set for them are set by county councils. A range of different things happen. Some of them allow charities to come along and take away items that are left there, such as bicycles and so on. That is something that local authorities should legislate for.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank the Minister of State and Ms Higgins for attending. The Minister of State has a very important job as regards reuse and recycling. The biggest environmental challenge we see at present is that of microplastics in the oceans. Even at European level, we do not seem to be making any great strides in trying to address the amount of plastic we are producing.

I will return to an issue raised by the Minister of State. When he spoke about reuse and recycling, he mentioned he visited a company in County Waterford that was manufacturing PPE, and that he was looking at its proposals for how it could take used face masks and recycle them for other medical purposes. I advise the Minister of State that that company has now nearly wound down. It was an indigenous manufacturer that was set up during the Covid pandemic and had almost 30 employees. I gave a lot of time and support to try to get it going. It was doing state-of-the-art work that was fully certified. The problem was we could get no support from HSE procurement to buy this company's products, which were equally priced, simply because we have a dysfunctional procurement process in this country. There are people writing tenders for procurement who have not got a single eye on the importance of trying to create a platform where indigenous companies can compete.

This is something the Minister of State needs to seriously look at. It needs to run right through our local authority procurement as well. The Minister of State should get the procurement list for local authorities, which I did many years ago, and look at the amount of money that goes out of a region in local authority procurements. The simple fact of breaking up tenders would negate the reason for having to put them out to tender in the first instance. However, the people involved will not do it because of the paperwork. These involve significant purchasing. The Minister of State spoke about the power of government purchasing and procurement. The amount of money that is going out of regions and out of the country because of procurement guidelines is ridiculous. State aid and European directives aside, there are ways to format procurement orders in trying to at least to redress the balance there. I ask the Minister of State to engage with the Department of Health to understand why. As other Deputies alluded to, the LEOs and Enterprise Ireland were before the committee last week talking about the need to try to stimulate investment in our local economy. I have given an example of a company that has invested multiple millions but could not get State support to keep it going.

I welcome the national food waste prevention roadmap, but the Department will have to look at the buying practices of the multiples. They are forcing small food manufacturers to give them product on a sale or return basis and nearly force those food manufacturers to merchandise that product on the shelf. Whatever comes back that the multiplies do not use, or goes out of date, is just handed back to the suppliers. That ends up going into municipal waste, as the Minister of State knows.

Municipal waste levies are a great idea but the problem is they are leading to the issue of fly-tipping and dumping in the countryside. There is no point putting a levy on local authorities unless better money is provided for enforcement around fly-tipping and the monitoring of that.

I absolutely welcome the ban on disposable vapes but they are not just an environmental threat. Vaping is a health threat. I hope that at some stage in the future we will talk about banning vaping. Anybody who thinks that ingesting molecular-sized oil into their lungs is a good idea is not paying attention to what is happening in healthcare. All of the signs are now telling us that vaping might become an even greater health hazard than smoking.

I will raise two other issues. The first relates to the green public procurement strategy. I again ask the Minister of State to be careful of the law of unintended consequences, when trying to create green procurement rules, regarding what the Government will actually force businesses to do and may unintentionally bring on in respect of production practices or putting companies out of business, as I said.

The Minister of State talked about the establishment of a centre of excellence for circular manufacturing and innovation. I ask him to look at South East Technological University, SETU, Waterford, where we have two of the leading scientific gateways, the pharmaceutical and molecular biotechnology research centre, PMBRC, and the south eastern applied materials research centre, SEAM, which are world-class as regards innovation and the amount of grant aid they are winning at European level for programmes. That would be a good place to start looking for where that centre of excellence might be place.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

On microplastics in the ocean, there is a problem with plastic pollution worldwide. I attended a UN conference on creating a worldwide convention about what to do about plastic pollution, much of which comes out of things such as washing machines, goes into rivers, ends up in the sea, and then gets eaten by fish, which we eat. Unbelievably, we are eating a credit card's worth of plastic every month. We are drinking plastic in our water supply and eating plastic when we eat food. That requires a worldwide response. There have been very positive responses from most countries.

The Deputy mentioned health procurement and the fact that this company in County Waterford is in difficulty. I am aware of that and have been following it. It is important that the Department of Health follows green procurement rules and the strategy we are laying out. There will be sectoral targets that will cover health, which will be published this year. The green procurement strategy is out for public consultation at present. I encourage the Deputy to look at it, comment on it, and see how it affects the health sector. If he feels it may have unintended consequences for business or is unfair in any way, I encourage him to comment on that. I meet representatives of Irish small and medium enterprises every quarter on procurement. They feed back to me their concerns about anything I am doing and generally help to write the procurement rules.

The Deputy mentioned companies that are supplying food to supermarkets on a sale or return basis, which is creating excess food waste. I meet supermarkets regularly on a range of issues. I will take that up with those large multiples and discuss it with them.

On fly-tipping enforcement, the Local Government Management Association, LGMA, or the County and City Management Association, CCMA, will come back to me with their code of practice for CCTV use on catching people who are fly-tipping. I expect that by the middle of November. By law, they have to tell me what their code of practice is. I will then sign it off and local authorities will be able to use CCTV to get evidence to convict people of fly-tipping.

The Deputy mentioned SETU, its expertise in materials research, and whether it could be involved in a centre of excellence. I have dealt with SETU in a very positive way. Its representatives came to me with a proposal for funding for quantum computing. It got €5 million from Europe and we matched that with another €5 million. SETU is now a centre of excellence for quantum computing and networking in Ireland. I was very impressed by the standard of its academics. Its materials research facility is incredible. I am sure it will be involved in the circular economy.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Minister of State expand on the comment he made regarding fly-tipping and CCTV? What does he expect to happen there?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The Houses passed a law last summer, namely, the Circular Economy Act. That included provision to allow local authorities to use CCTV to catch people littering and to use drones and bodycams to catch people dumping. The reason we did this was that people who had been caught dumping in the past had successfully defended themselves on the basis that their privacy rights had been invaded under the general data protection regulation, GDPR.

We were advised that we needed to pass primary legislation to give local authorities the power to collect evidence to convict people and we have done that. The law states that the County and City Management Association, CCMA, has to come up with a code of practice for how this CCTV will be used in a fair way that does not impinge on privacy but, at the same time, is capable of catching people. Then they will give me this code of practice and I sign it off, and it gets laid before the Dáil. I am keen for them to come back and give it to me. I telephone them all the time and ask them about their progress. They are consulting with the Data Protection Commissioner. They are having a meeting in the middle of November and at their board meeting, I expect that they will sign off on that and send me a document. I hope I can then sign it and the local authorities can then start deploying CCTV to collect evidence of people who are fly-tipping and dumping. It will be targeted on the black spots where it is happening.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. We have a particular problem in my constituency of Limerick. As he will probably be aware, our CCTV was deemed to be not in compliance with data protection and a significant fine was issue on the local authority. Illegal dumping and fly-tipping is off the scale at present because they know they cannot be prosecuted. The sooner that could be implemented, the better.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Can I put a question to the Minister of State?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

On the issue of fly-tipping, it came out previously that if a camera is to be deployed on a site for fly-tipping, locals cannot do it. The local authority has to do it. Will the Minister of State look at that? The local authority cannot get out to rural areas where there is fly-tipping going on. Locals are prepared - indeed, in my own area, we tried to do this - to put in their own cameras and they were told they could not do it; the local authority has to do it. Will the Minister of State try to clarify that?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

My understanding is that someone can use CCTV to cover his or her own land. Now I may be wrong.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I am talking about the roadway.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The question is then when it spills onto the roadway. For example, many people will have a CCTV camera on the front of their business or even a doorbell that has CCTV on it, which covers their area but may flow out onto the street and may also cover part of the public area. This has been tested under European law. It is acceptable, if it is not the primary focus of the camera, that it is picking up things that are just outside of someone's curtilage. I am happy to discuss that with the Deputy in more detail. My understanding is people can put a CCTV system on their own land.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Can a community alert scheme or a community security scheme deploy its own cameras?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I do not believe so, not under law. It has to be the local authority that does it. The local authorities will now be empowered to come up with their own schemes, which are targeted on areas that are causing trouble such as litter black stops and areas where there is a problem. It has to be proportionate and fair. They cannot put a camera on every street corner. However, they will be able to design a scheme, put in cameras and collect evidence on people. I expect it will work.

Deputy David Stanton

This area is particularly extraordinary and exciting. It is hugely important and has massive potential for good. I think I speak for everyone in the committee when I say we support the Minister of State 100% in what he is doing. It is massively important.

On that last issue that my colleague mentioned with respect to CCTV, is there a resource issue regarding data controllers? In dealing with the justice area, I am aware there was an issue as to who was to employ data controllers and what kind of work were they to do in the local authorities. Has that arisen? Are the local authorities to be funded to employ data controllers to look after the CCTV systems that the Minister of State mentioned? Somebody has to monitor, investigate the videos, etc., and that takes a resources. Obviously, that person, being the data controller, is legally also responsible for control of the data to make sure, as the Minister of State said, it does not leak out into the public domain in an unfortunate way and infringe on privacy.

Could he elaborate on the establishment of the centre of excellence for circular manufacturing and innovation? CIRCULÉIRE was to submit its proposal to him last July. Has that been submitted? Where is that at? How does he see this centre working? Would it be in a third level institution, as my colleague has been hinting, or would it be in the Department or somewhere else? How would it work? What is it supposed to do? When will it be up and running? This is hugely important because, in the last sentence in that paragraph, the Minister of State refers to support for business and enterprise in making that transition being important. It is important. Business needs support. As well as that, from my reading of this area, there is a huge amount going on but people do not seem to know about it. We need more awareness-raising in society with respect to what he is doing, what the need is and what people can do.

I understand deposit return scheme will be in place very soon. Am I correct that there are two ways that can be done? One is to hand the plastic bottle over the counter and the other is a machine that people feed the bottle into that chops it up, etc. Those machines, I understand, are quite expensive. I got a quote from one retailer who said they cost €48,000. It was a fairly small retailer. It is a lot of money. I am aware they get a handling fee as part of this scheme, but has any thought been given to assisting retailers in paying for these machines if they want to put them in? I will leave it at that for the moment and let the Minister of State respond.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I will start with the question about data controllers on local authorities. I am regularly in contact with the local authorities on this issue and they have not raised this with me, if it is an issue. I will say it to them the next time I am talking to the staff but they have not said to me that they have got an issue with this.

The Deputy mentioned the centre of excellence for circular economy, manufacturing and design and asked could that be in an academic institution, where is it expected that the work, design and research would be done, and have I received a proposal from CIRCULÉIRE on this. I have received a detailed proposal from CIRCULÉIRE of several hundred pages. I have had a briefing as well on the various things that it is proposing to do to cover matters such as education, networking, design, communications, etc. Nothing has been decided. There could be some facilities within academia. It simply has not been decided yet. As for how long it will take to happen, it will happen in the coming months.

The Deputy mentioned the democratisation of this or letting people get involved in the circular economy. The phrase "circular economy" - it is two abstract words together - is a bit intangible. It is much more understandable what the circular economy is when people think about bringing their clothes to a charity shop and buying some other clothes there, going to an alterations shop, going to a shoe shop or getting a laptop fixed. Those kind of activities are quite relatable and understandable to people. We need to be clear in our communications and not use jargon, and make sure that everybody feels that they can take part.

We are aiming on an open goal here because this is not only something for trendy young people who are progressive. My parents' generation say that this is sensible and something they want to go back to. They remember a time when their milk bottles were delivered on an electric float. There was more reuse, efficiency and recycling in society before we developed global manufacturing, etc., and it makes sense to go back to that. There is general widespread public support for it and we should talk about it in a simple and common sense way.

As a matter of interest, I visited Inagh, which is a village in County Clare where Senator Garvey lives, and I was able to buy milk from a farm co-operative in a reusable bottle from a machine that I paid for from a card. That is an example of the circular economy, which has been designed by farmers, is saving them money and cutting out a middle man. That kind of thing is understandable to people.

The Deputy's last question was about the cost of machines for the deposit and return scheme. There is an option if someone has a small shop. For a start, if the shop is under 250 sq m, the owners do not have to take back bottles and cans at all if they do not want to; they can just put up a sign saying where the nearest place is. If they want to take them back manually, they can. They can have a bin bag under the counter and take them in. Obviously, there is an overhead of labour to that.

The machines pay out. There is a handling fee for each one and the design of that handling fee is supposed to be sufficient to pay for the machines.

A grant scheme, however, is in operation for small shops. This allows them to get some money, I think it is €6,000, to put towards the cost of a machine. I understand the range of prices for these machines goes from approximately €12,000 to €200,000. I saw one of the largest supermarkets buying a very large machine. We know these schemes work because they have done so for decades in other countries. We know, therefore, that we can find a working mechanism and a price point that works for everybody. The machines are meant to pay for themselves. We will prime the pump by giving grants to smaller shops, in particular, to get the scheme going. I do not want this to be something where it is necessary to go to the big supermarkets to be served, and I do not think it is going to be like this.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. We will go to another round of questions. I call Deputy Bruton.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Very quickly, I am interested to know if the targets for the different sectors have been developed yet. It will be interesting. Specifically, are targets being set for the volume of waste generated? It is worrying that those numbers continue to go up. Will the Department be setting targets for reuse? I think the rate of reuse the Europe reports on Ireland now is something like 1.8%. The best performers have rates like 15%. We really have not cracked this issue of getting waste material back into the supply chain, for all the reasons the Minister of State has outlined.

This issue came up before another committee, where people in the consumer fast drinks market, including cups of coffee and so on, were claiming that recovering paper was more climate-friendly than having cups that were going to be washed. That sector was arguing against the levy on the grounds that it would promote many people having cheap plastic cups not be subject to the levy but which would not be used sufficiently or rewashed and the net outcome would be worse than was hoped for. I think that sector had some economist to write a report and the point was made regarding having to reuse such a cup 20 times before there was a return, and the question was asked concerning whether this scheme was robust. I would be interested to hear the comments from the Minister of State on whether these issues have been resolved.

Turning to a point I think the Minister of State did not have a chance to deal with, is dovetailing the circular economy, which embraces biodiversity loss, waste management and design, with the climate challenge not a better way for us to go? I refer to pulling all these things together under one Government strategy overseen from the Taoiseach's office, which could, as they say, bite with the president's teeth when someone is not complying with expectations or the enforcement system is not working up to standard. The strategy would not be left to isolated bodies to try to paddle their own canoes but would be overseen from central Government level.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank the Deputy. His first question was on whether the sectoral targets were done yet. They are not. They are in progress but not complete. We will see them later this year. Will they include targets for reuse? They will, and I know this because it is in the legislation that we must have reuse targets. We are, therefore, going to have them. It will be noticed as well that there are reuse targets in the procurement strategy. It is currently out for consultation and I hope all the members will rush back to their offices and read it now. It is possible to comment on what it is thought those targets should be. An example would be what percentage of ICT spending should be allocated to reused or renovated materials.

Regarding paper cups versus plastic cups, etc., the question that always needs to be analysed is substitution. If we put a penalty on using a particular material, then somebody is going to substitute that with something else. The question then is how that other material compares. It takes a lot of energy to make glass, for example. We must, therefore, ensure we are doing our analysis. This is why we do a regulatory impact assessment. A very detailed one was done on the cups. We must ensure that what we are doing does not have unintended consequences that do more harm than good. To give an example, we are familiar with this aspect with the plastic bag levy. People could sell a bag for life, but what if that only lasted a day? This meant that regulations had to be brought in to specify the thickness of a plastic bag, the minimum price if a plastic bag were being sold that did not attract the levy, etc. Taking that experience into account, the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 included the idea that we would avoid a situation where people were supplying the flimsiest of plastic cups as a replacement for paper cups, which would do more harm. This aspect, therefore, has been taken into account in the legislation.

I understand that people involved in manufacturing a product, and there is going to be a move towards some other product, are going to feel worried by this change and are going to lobby to preserve their own industry. The Deputy knows, however, that other industries, and this is what we are talking about today, are popping up that supply the alternative product, even if that is longer lasting or needs to be washed or whatever. There are opportunities here as well as losses. I have talked to the representatives of any of the companies who feel they will be losing out as a result of circular economy changes. I am always willing to talk to them and hope they can try to find a way to design new products that will take advantage of the changes happening in the market. Any market changes always mean new opportunities as well in a sector.

The Deputy also asked whether the circular economy plans should be integrated with the climate action plan. As he was saying, I think his view is that climate action should be based on the circular economy, and that if we could fold one into the other, then we would have stronger legislative backing for it. I think this is a good suggestion. I will go through the climate action plan, see how it meets with the circular economy strategy and make sure they overlap correctly.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I am thankful for this good opportunity to talk about the circular economy. It is a very interesting subject. The circular economy concept deals with everything. It has a huge remit, including talking about recycling and reusing. It is an extensive remit, so it is good we have a Minister of State to do this properly now, because we have been struggling for years while looking at Germany, and places like that, doing things very well and wondering why we have not been doing it here. It is great to finally see things moving in that direction here.

On the can and bottle return scheme, I have a few queries. Is it 2,500 units and this is commencing in February 2024, or where exactly are we at with this scheme? Have we got a definite timeline? Where can I find information on the grant scheme, up to €6,000, that the Minister of State mentioned for small businesses? A few people have asked me about this scheme. I was thinking of trying to work with the GAA to try to get these machines into the hurling pitches and sports grounds. These are a huge cause of rubbish at games, especially cans and bottles. The GAA tries its best to have bins, but the money-back aspect will be a great attraction and will make money for the GAA, which is always trying to fundraise. It will be the same for other sports as well.

From the Department's research and findings on the circular economy, what is the biggest thing we need to look at? The Minister of State mentioned construction waste. Returning to the subject of local authorities and waste facilities, it sounds like we need to do more, expect more or ask more of the local authorities if we want to be successful with the circular economy. There is the example of Laois County Council letting all the waste from the big festival I am not allowed to mention go to landfill. That local authority is obviously okay with thousands of tonnes of waste. It must be pretty cheap for the person undertaking to be able to do it. I am also wondering about the waste management facilities. I genuinely think we should create more jobs for people whose task it would be to facilitate people coming onto sites to take away stuff. It would have to be done in some organised way, but this is happening in other countries as well. I refer specifically to timber, metal and materials like that.

Have we got a timeline for the green public procurement policy? I think that what the Minister of State is trying to do is phenomenal but this touches everybody. It involves every Department. I would love to see how we are going to get Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and the local enterprise offices to take this initiative on board. I would also love to see how we are going to get the local authorities to take it on board. I know they are getting new climate co-ordinators now. Will the circular economy strategy be coming into this new policy in respect of the climate? The question from Deputy Bruton was interesting concerning where the climate action plan and the circular economy strategy fit into each other. I say this because we need the local authorities to take the circular economy seriously as well. When they are developing their climate action plans, we hope to God they are taking the circular economy into account because waste reduction is a huge part of our carbon footprint too.

I want to leave the Minister of State time to answer, but I also wish to ask about the education and training board, ETB and the course being run in Dunshaughlin. Consideration is being given to rolling it out. If a circular economy fund exists, is this something we could look at to recognise the need to roll this type of course out across the country in all the ETBs?

Bike repair persons and mechanics are in short supply. Perhaps this is something we should work with the ETBs on. I am not sure what the Minister of State's remit is on this. I do not want to put too much on him. Much work needs to be done for the circular economy to be embedded across the various Departments. What is the level of engagement from other Departments that are responsible for ETBs and local authorities? If we are taking the circular economy seriously, it needs to be widespread.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The deposit return scheme for bringing back bottles and cans goes live nationally on 1 February. People will see these machines appearing in their local supermarkets. They may be in the car park or in the store, depending on what store management has decided. Any small business owner with any queries about the scheme can talk to Re-turn, which is the company running the scheme. They will advise about grants and so on.

The Senator mentioned the GAA. I met the sustainability managers of the GAA about the use of plastic bottles. It is typical that a whole pallet full of bottles arrives on training day and everyone is given a fresh plastic bottle. One approach to this issue is to have a deposit return machine in the GAA club, possibly one where instead of giving money back, the money goes as a donation to the local club. However, even better than that is to have a water fountain. Everybody brings their own bottle and they refill it from the water fountain. This is a simpler and cheaper approach, but I think we will do both, particularly at the larger GAA venues, because reverse vending machines are not going to be ready for 1 February. I have been very keen to make sure that we have the narrowest scope for what is happening on 1 February so that we launch on time. For version two, I am happy to go around to clubs or civic community sites to see if we can find a way to provide grant aid for reverse vending machines.

The biggest opportunity area for the circular economy is construction and development. That is where much of our focus has been. It is a business thing; t is possibly not going to be very relatable to the public, but it is a big area. Regarding the question of whether local authorities should do more, I feel that local authorities do not have a lot of power in many areas. However, they do have power regarding their civic amenity sites and to the conditions that they attach to event licensing. I would like local authorities to use that power. Through the LGMA or the CCMA perhaps we can make a template which they can adopt nationally. I will work on that.

The Senator referred to how people come along to a civic amenity site and remove stuff. Circular economy businesses generally have a model where they get paid to take away something that is worthless to someone. They do something with it that adds value and then they sell it and make money. They are making money at both ends of the chain from the time they take in the product to the time they give it away. It could be something as simple as taking away people's grass clippings and getting paid for it, turning it into compost and selling it. That is the basic model for all of these companies. The green public procurement guidelines are out for public consultation over the coming weeks. I expect they will be ready by the end of the year.

Regarding the local enterprise offices and ETBs, there is a range of grants such as the GreenStart and GreenPlus available through local enterprise offices. Perhaps the Senator discussed these with Enterprise Ireland. I am happy to engage with them more on this. Enterprise Ireland has someone working specifically on green procurement and the circular economy.

The skills shortage is a huge problem in the context of a circular economy. I spoke to businesses that are involved in the circular economy sector. For example, I spoke to a shoemaker who told me he had more business than he could take on. He just cannot find the staff. I heard the same thing from a person doing clothes alterations. These types of businesses need people trained. They emphasised that we need to focus more on skills-based training. I met the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, about this recently. He has a green skills strategy and I think a circular economy skills focus would be important. Within my Department, there is a textile advisory group that works with the sector. Skills training needs to be a major area of focus for us.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I want to look at the issue of refills. We need to look at the amount of plastic we consume for detergents and cosmetics. The Department might have a role to play in trying to incentivise the use of refillable bottles. It is happening now, but to a very small degree, in some SuperValu stores. This allows people to bring back used cosmetic bottles and refill them. This keeps the one bottle in circulation for much longer and people are prepared to do that. We all remember years ago our mothers carrying heavy tweed bags which they brought with them when they went shopping. They did not buy bags in the shop. I imagine most people would be quite happy to refill from plastic containers rather than to be dumping loads of conditioner and shampoo bottles every two weeks. I ask the Minister of State to see what kind of pressure can be put on the multiples to look at this as a proper initiative in order to give people the choice to recycle, reuse and refill their own bottles.

The second issue I want to raise is bottle and can retention scheme. My experience of the FMCG sector tells me that what will happen to happen is that the multiples will put pressure on the brands to support the purchase of these machines. When we see a €200,000 redemption machine in a supermarket we can be sure that the multiple will have paid next to nothing for that. It will have been brought in by pressing on the suppliers to provide money for it. This creates a really unfair situation for the small corner shops. If the owner of a small corner shop wants to provide that service he or she will have to pay for such a machine. If the owner does not invest in the machine there is a huge labour component in making bags and having them filled. I ask the Minister of State to talk to the Department of Finance about some type of a tax treatment to allow small corner shops to claim some tax benefit for implementing the scheme. They will have a cost in it that they cannot subsidise. I can assure the House that the multiples will not pay a penny for this and yet they will be advertising and virtue signalling by telling people that they can buy in the store and also get the redemption scheme sorted out.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I think that refills are happening on a very small scale in small businesses. My impression is that it is not happening in a very sustainable way. Some small shops ask people to refill their containers and give customers a discount on the product. We are asking people to change their culture, mindset and habits, which is very difficult to do. A broader application of the concept is needed. For this reason, we need to get the multiples involved. Molloy's Butchers in Ardkeen, Waterford, provides a good example of what I am talking about. I met the butcher there about a week ago and he told me he was offering discounts to the customers if they brought their own container for meat. He is offering a 25% discount. He said that he kept increasing the discount because nobody was taking it up. He has now got to 25% and he still has a very low take-up rate. It is irrational if people can you can buy €20 euros worth of meat for €15 but they do not take the offer. This can only be explained by the fact that people are not used to this kind of idea. The butcher has signs up all over the shop but bringing a container in this kind of situation is not a habit that people have become used to yet. The Deputy heard it here first, he can go in there an avail of the offer.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I know them very well actually, and they are very progressive.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

For me, it illustrates that this approach is not going to work on a large scale. Even with a huge discount, people are not attracted. I think it needs to be something that is really broad. We can all recall the cultural shift when the plastic bags change happened. It discouraged people from utilising single-use bags because they had to pay for them every time. With this, the same thing has to happen, as Deputy Shanahan said, at the level of the multiples. I looked at what is happening in France, where they have proposed that a proportion of the supermarket space be allocated for refills. They have not done it yet but they said by 2030, I think, that 20% or 25% of the supermarket space has to be allocated for that purpose. I met the French minister who is working on the issue. We have research going on into how that is working in French supermarkets. We will see what comes back from that.

I also met with representatives from Tesco. I knew that the company ran a pilot refill project in the UK and I asked them to do the same in Ireland. They did so for a while but then gave up on it. Many of these schemes only work when everybody does it together and they are not seen as something negative for one's business. If a business owner tells a customer that they do not provide a container for the product they have just bought, the business owner's fear is that the customer will go elsewhere to a place that does. If it is done on the scale of town, county or country then it is a different thing, particularly if it is accompanied by a discount.

With a lot of products, a large proportion of the price is the packaging. If one does not have to pay for the packaging, one would expect that would provide an efficiency.

The Deputy referred to the cost of these reverse vending machines for businesses and the fact that a very large company can afford to install a big machine but a small company cannot. I understand that, and it is for this reason that grants are available for small companies. It is also for this reason that very small companies do not have to accept bottles or cans back at all. We will continue to help them in any way we can. If the Deputy has particular examples of companies that are having difficulties, I am happy to meet them or their representative bodies.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

It will be used as a competitive advantage by the multiples once it gets up and running. To say that a small shop can get a grant is not satisfactory. This is not about grant-aiding shops. We should have a system that is cost neutral to them. They should not have to put in money themselves or fund it through a grant scheme. If we are going to do it, then it should just be paid for. Let it be done by means of a levy or otherwise. The Department is going to create an unfair system because the multiples have the purchasing power and they will squeeze the suppliers to get this system paid for. That is the way they work.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I want to make sure that businesses like Molloys remain in business and that the small people, particularly the innovators and those who want to move forward, are helped out as far as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Stanton is next.

Deputy David Stanton

I want to go back, if I may, to the centre of excellence for circular manufacturing and innovation. The Minister of State said it will be up and running in the coming months. Will that be this side of Easter or this side of the summer? This is a business and enterprise committee and I would be of the view that this would be a very important way of supporting businesses and manufacturers out there. I ask the Minister of State to send the committee a detailed note on his thinking in this regard, including what the plans are, what kind of budget the centre will have, what kind of expertise will be involved and what exactly it is going to do. It is something that we should really hone in on as a business and enterprise committee because it is a great idea in terms of helping businesses. I am delighted that the Minister of State has a detailed note from CIRCULÉIRE, but I would like to support him in actually establishing it and getting it up and running. We need to know more about it before we can do that.

I also want to ask about the so-called latte levy that has been mentioned from time to time, namely, the levy on coffee cups. Is that on the way? Is it happening or is it going to happen? If so, I ask the Minister of State to tell us a bit more about it.

As noted by Deputy Shanahan and others, when one goes into a supermarket, it is very hard to buy anything that is not wrapped in plastic. Apples, oranges, bananas, everything seems to be wrapped in plastic. Single-use plastic has taken on a life of its own. What can we do there to actually cut down on the use of such plastic?

A gentleman came to me recently with an old lawnmower that he wanted to get rid of. I am not sure if he is rewilding his garden or not but he has an old lawnmower that has broken down and he asked me where he would go to get rid of it. It is one of those ride-on yokes. He cannot trade it in. It is not part of the WEEE scheme. Would the Minister of State have any advice as to what people can do with old garden machinery like that? This would include things like strimmers, hedge cutters and so on, that are beyond use and cannot be repaired, although as Senator Garvey said, we would like to be able to repair everything. My first job was in an electrical shop and people brought in their irons, toasters, kettles for repair all of the time. That is what I was doing when I was about 15. They left with irons with new elements in them and so on. Everything worked again. That seems to be all gone now. I do not know if one can even put a new element into a kettle anymore. Can one even get an element? We dump the whole lot now rather than just changing the part that is malfunctioning.

I wish the Minister of State well with the work he is doing. It is hugely important. God speed with it and may he have a fair wind.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank the Deputy. His first question was about CIRCULÉIRE, which is up and running already, as the Deputy knows. It has approximately 50 members. Its turnover is €1.5 million per year. We are analysing its proposal and I expect that we will have a decision on it by the end of the year but then it will take some time to ramp up. CIRCULÉIRE wants to increase its operations by an order of magnitude in the first year and then to move beyond that, doubling or tripling over the coming years. It has a ramp up plan but it cannot go from zero to 100 in one year. It will continue to work and by next summer, if its proposals are approved, it will be increasing its numbers and capacity.

The Deputy asked about the latte levy, which to be fair is not a latte levy but a disposable cup levy.

Deputy David Stanton

I know.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The reason for it is that we should make coffee cheaper. A coffee cup costs up to 24 cent, even without any taxes on it, and the consumer pays for that. The Deputy knows that. He is smart enough to know that the cup is not really free.

Deputy David Stanton

Some companies have actually got rid of disposable cups. They use refillable cups and have saved money. One small shop of which I am aware has saved €9,000 in a year.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Yes, absolutely. It is a huge cost. There is also a storage cost for businesses and a waste cost.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Is the Minister of State sure about those cost figures?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I have spoken to cafe owners themselves and some of these cups are quite elaborate. They are printed-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

I spoke to the owner of a newly established outlet who told me that the cost of cups was something like seven cent.

Deputy David Stanton

That would be probably be the cost without the cover.

Senator Róisín Garvey

They must not be biodegradable, compostable or non-bleached cups.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Yes, and remember one needs a lid too. Part of the manufacturing process is to ensure people do not burn their hands so it is not just a single layer and so on. I am sure they are telling me the truth when they are telling me the prices they are paying. There is probably a range of prices but whatever it is, it is not zero and the consumer pays for it when he or she accepts one of those cups.

Deputy David Stanton

What is happening with this levy?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I am getting to that. We have not implemented the levy yet. We had a public consultation on it and the results of that were published. There is clearly big public support for it. In order to collect the levy, I need to some entity to agree to be the collection agent for it. I have been persuaded by the Revenue Commissioners to change the approach I was taking to that but it is going to take a little time to implement. We have been delayed a little bit in introducing this but in the meantime, I notice that people are jumping the gun in a way that I am very happy about. I am sure committee members have heard about Killarney, where 50 businesses got together and decided they were going to do without disposable cups all together and provide people with a reusable, washable alternative. I went down to Killarney to see how that was working because I thought it would be a useful test bed. I wanted to see how that scheme was operating, whether there were any drawbacks and to find out why those businesses that were not taking part had opted out. A total of 50 outlets selling coffee in the town got together and agreed on this. They estimated that between them they were using 1 million cups per year. Those cups and lids were ending up in Killlarney National Park and actually damaging their tourism product. The businesses involved are saving hundreds of thousands of euro per year on cups, and generally this is going very well for them. They have not managed to get the large coffee multiples or the petrol stations to join in. They are the outliers but otherwise the project is working very well. As soon as I can implement the levy, I will do so. In the meantime, however, I am happy to see this happening organically around the country. Other towns are eager to copy the success of Killarney.

The Deputy also asked about what can be done with an old lawnmower. In general, this is metal scrap waste and civic amenity sites should accept it. If anyone has a question about how to scrap a particular product, there is a website called mywaste.ie. One types in the name of the item and it tells one where that item should go. That website is run by one of the regional waste authorities. It is what I use to answer those types of questions. I get asked questions all the time about where to put such-and-such a product.

The Deputy also asked about the use of single-use plastic in supermarkets. As I said, we have been analysing the French approach on this. The French have said that plastic cannot be used on hard vegetables like marrows, cucumbers and so on. They have a plan to move more and more towards softer vegetables, ending up in a couple of year's time with a situation where plastic cannot be put on soft fruits like strawberries and raspberries. We want to see if this is something we can replicate. We also want to see if it has any negative effects in terms of food waste or the use of substitute wrappings that might be harmful. We are looking at that. I am glad to see that a number of the multiples are now offering a special bin at the back of the tills. One can strip the plastic from products and throw it in there. My local supermarket manager has told me that there is far more plastic being used now than was used a couple of decades ago. It really seems excessive. One sees almost all fruit wrapped in plastic. It really is shocking and it has to stop.

An Cathaoirleach

As everyone has contributed now, that concludes our discussion.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Sorry, can I come in again?

An Cathaoirleach

By all means.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I come from a secondary school teaching background. I used to teach maths and physics and then I spent years promoting active travel in secondary schools. I noticed that people who were getting high grades in honours physics in their leaving certificate exams were not able to use a spanner. Is there an education piece around the circular economy that needs to be brought in? The curriculum is being developed at the moment because the Department of Education wants to move the leaving certificate away from academics and book learning to more practical learning. As was said, it is hard to find someone to fix things. People even the lack the ability to change a plug. We have got into consumerism, which is about buying more and more. That is why we are where we are. The more people can do at home on a basic level, the less they will buy things because they do not know how to fix or make them. I wonder if those responsible for the circular economy could engage with the curriculum development section of the Department of Education to look at bringing in some practical measures. It should not be possible to get a H1 in physics without knowing how to use a spanner. I was doing bicycle repair with leaving certificate girls who were the brightest of the brightest and they had no concept of how to use a spanner to adjust the height of their saddles. What is the point in getting a H1 in physics when you do not know how to use a spanner or understand the concept of how it works around the fulcrum? There is a missing piece in education and I wonder what we can do to embed it in some subjects.

It is the same with transition year students all doing a driving skills course. They are practically being told that the next thing they have to do is own a car. That is not a big solution for the circular economy either. Why are they not also getting cycle training, training in how to fix a bicycle and such basic things? If we are developing a curriculum, it might work nicely to tie the circular economy into a few other things and educate the educators about the concept of the circular economy.

Deputy Stanton spoke about small companies. I went around Ennistymon with my friend Marie Georget eight years ago or so and every business that sold coffee agreed it would give a 30 cent reduction to people who brought their own cup. This was eight years ago. It was no problem. They agreed straight away because they were wasting so much money on single use cups, including storage and cost. I would argue with the idea that they are 7 cent. They must be really crappy plastic ones that are not biodegradable or compostable. They cannot be got for that price anywhere. The will is there in small businesses. I would like to see the local enterprise offices, LEOs, working with small businesses to see how they can organise collective bulk purchasing of reusable cups businesses want to brand. Every small business is doing it separately but the more you buy, the cheaper you get it. That is great for the multiples, as Deputy Shanahan stated. I would love to see the LEOs helping small businesses to come together to purchase reusable lunch boxes and coffee cups and so on. Otherwise it will be hard for small businesses to afford it. Two of my sisters work in this realm so I know it is a challenge.

I will go back to single use plastics. I have friends who are organic vegetable growers and supply the multiples. It kills them that they grow everything organically and then have to wrap it in plastic. They are probably using biodegradable or compostable versions - the things we all use to make ourselves feel a little less guilty about the plastic - but it still wastes energy and produces more packaging. What can we do to get the multiples to stop wrapping everything in plastic? I know there is a token banana in Aldi or wherever that has a sticker on it. That is great but people get really pissed off. They are trying to do their best. They bring their cup or bottle, but if consumers who are trying to do their best go to any multiple, they find plastic heaven. What can be done about that on a bigger scale? The bigger companies seem to want to go green. It is pretty off-putting. People ask what the point is when everything in the big supermarkets is wrapped in plastic. Perhaps the supermarkets should be forced to take all the packaging there and then, but that is not practical for everyone either.

What is happening with the recycling of plastic in Ireland? Is it being exported. I do not necessarily have a problem with that, but people say "Ah, sure it is all going to China". I met a friend who is a solicitor and does not recycle anything. He said there is no point because it all goes to China. We have to do something about that to give people faith that it is worth their while recycling.

Will we get recycling bins on the streets or are they not needed with the return scheme? If there are cans and bottles in those bins, do they go to landfill because local authorities do not care? How is that being dealt with? It is amazing that a figure of 1.9 billion bottles and cans a year was mentioned and that it is hoped to get 90% of those back. That would be fantastic, but I wonder about the bins. When people are on the street, will they have to carry around plastic bottles and cans until they find a return point? Maybe they will find one if there are 2,500 of them. I wonder about street bins. Other countries have segregated bins.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

On the question about the curriculum, it is a basic skill for people to be able to assemble flat-pack furniture, for example, and to be able to use a spanner. That is fair enough. I will mention it to the Department of Education the next time I ask how it is getting on with the solar panel project, for example. Bringing in more practical skills, including the basics of how to do things in practice as well as in theory, is important. It is a relief sometimes for students who are stuck in a classroom all day to be able to do something physical. It is another form of learning and it is good for the brain to do things in that way.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I asked about single use plastics.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

On single use plastics in supermarkets and the requirement for organic vegetable producers to wrap things in plastic, at the end of the day the Circular Economy and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 included a requirement to analyse and report on the use of plastics in supermarkets. That work is under way. There is a timeline for it in the Act. When it is ready I will be interested to see the proposals around it. If we can reduce their use, it will save money for suppliers, shops and customers.

The Senator asked whether plastics are exported or to what extent they are managed in Ireland. There is very little reprocessing capacity in Ireland. There is a lot of segregation. When the green bin is taken away, there are lots of machines and conveyor belts that segregate and sort the waste into all the different categories. However, typically it is baled and the raw plastic material is put into packing containers and sold to facilities abroad that can take raw plastic, reprocess it into plastic pellets and then turn it into new products. We have a little of it. For example, Shabra Plastics and Recycling in County Monaghan can do reprocessing, I think Limerick Polymers Production is working on it and I think Beauparc is working on a facility in Portlaoise.

One of the things that will happen as a result of the deposit return scheme, the 1.9 billion bottles and cans being reprocessed, is that it will create a market for a really clean, well-segregated stream of materials. I want to see more higher level activity going on in Ireland, including the reprocessing of the material.

The myth that everything we put in the bin gets sent to a hole in China is strong and it is a good excuse for not segregating waste and not caring. For that reason, I have visited every form of recycling and segregation facility I can to trace where the waste goes and see that plastic film is being reprocessed. There was a story that plastic film was all being burnt in an incinerator. It is not. It is being reprocessed in places like Limerick Polymers Production. Plastic has huge value. It would not make sense to throw it in a hole in China. It is often possible to get €1,000 per tonne for it. The idea that all this material is being segregated and not being recycled is simply untrue. The materials that are being separated - aluminium is worth more than €1,000 per tonne - often have high post segregation value. There would be no reason to dispose of them. The only way to convince people is to show them where it goes or to have recycling companies in communities that are buying and making use of these products so people can see they are being reused.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, and Ms Higgins for assisting the committee on this important matter. The committee will consider the matter further as soon as possible.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.19 a.m. and adjourned at 11.26 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 October 2023.