Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 2023

Skills and Supports Required for Businesses to Meet Decarbonisation Targets: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members participating in the meeting remotely that they must do so from within the Leinster House complex only. We have not received apologies from any members. Today we will discuss the issue of the skills and supports required for businesses to meet their decarbonisation targets. Ireland has committed to a legally binding target of net zero greenhouse gas emissions no later than 2050 and a reduction of 51% by 2030. Irish enterprises will face many challenges in implementing a detailed agenda of transition and change to ensure these targets are met while remaining competitive in a decarbonising world. Leadership and supports will be essential to drive industry changes while at the same time protecting and expanding our industrial competitiveness and prosperity. Today, I am pleased we have the opportunity to consider this and other related matters further with the following officials. From Skillnet Ireland are Mr. Paul Healy, chief executive, Ms Tracey Donnery, director of policy and communications, and joining us online are Mr. Dave Flynn, director of business networks and Mr. Ken Stockil, director of sustainable enterprise. From the Sustainable Energy Authority Ireland, SEAI, are Mr. Declan Meally, director of business, public sector and transport, and Dr. Fergus Sharkey, head of business supports and transport.

Before we start, as I always have to do, I will explain parliamentary privilege to witnesses. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Mr. Healy to make his opening remarks on behalf of Skillnet Ireland.

Mr. Paul Healy

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to be here today and to outline how Skillnet Ireland supports businesses in meeting their decarbonisation targets and building the talent needed for climate action and sustainability challenges. Skillnet Ireland is a national agency responsible for spearheading workforce development for the enterprise sector, with a particular focus on SMEs. Established in 1999 and funded through the National Training Fund, Skillnet Ireland is supported by both Government and industry, responding to policy priorities and skills challenges in a proactive and agile manner. We work with a network of 60 industry partner organisations, including bodies such as chambers of commerce, the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, the Irish Business Employers Confederation, IBEC, Irish Small and Medium Enterprises, ISME, the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, and a host of regional and sectoral industry clusters. Partnering in this way allows industry to take the lead in identifying the skills challenges it faces and in determining the responses and types of training programmes needed by employers. We also partner with other State agencies and across the tertiary education sector to design and develop programmes that meet new or emerging skill needs. In 2022, Skillnet Ireland provided training supports to 24,700 businesses and 92,400 trainees through 74 Skillnet networks and national upskilling schemes. We invested a total of €70.2 million in industry-developed skills programmes, of which €26.5 million came from the private sector, where employers co-finance the costs of training with us by combining company contributions with Government grants. Skillnet Ireland is a powerful example of the public and private sectors taking collective and collaborative action to address the shared issue of skills.

As we know, the climate action plan seeks to halve emissions by 2030 and become carbon neutral by 2050. In delivering these ambitious targets, businesses across every region and sector face the challenge of integrating climate change considerations and long-term sustainability into their business models and culture. Talent, therefore, is at the forefront of the green transition. The collective task for Government, industry and workers is to develop the array of necessary green skills for a low-carbon future.

Skillnet Ireland has a series of targeted initiatives to support decarbonisation, including the Skillnet Climate Ready Academy, Green Tech Skillnet, Sustainable Enterprise Skillnet, Sustainable Finance Skillnet and Sustainable HRM Skillnet, each with specific specialist objectives. In 2022, over 1,790 businesses and 5,800 employees benefited from climate and sustainability upskilling programmes delivered by Skillnet Ireland, covering areas such as energy management, offshore wind, water stewardship, biodiversity management, sustainable finance and environmental, social, and corporate governance, ESG, reporting, sustainable food production, sustainable supply chain management, efficiency in building systems, organic farming and the circular economy. These range from specialist upskilling to technical programmes, to National Framework of Qualifications, NFQ, accredited programmes and management development programmes, all of which are aimed at helping businesses tackle decarbonisation.

I will give a quick flavour of some of the projects, initiatives, and schemes. In 2021, Skillnet Ireland launched the Climate Ready Academy with the Ministers, Deputies Ryan and Harris. This is a national initiative delivered in partnership with industry to equip both SMEs and larger businesses with the skills they need to respond to climate change and to avail of the business opportunities transitioning to a low-carbon economy presents. In 2022, the Climate Ready Academy partnered with the University of Limerick to launch the first stackable micro-credential programmes for climate action in Ireland, leading to a full level 7 award on the NFQ. The four programmes, which were energy leaders, waste and circular economy leaders, biodiversity leaders and sustainability leaders enable participants to develop tailored sustainability charters and action plans for their organisations. In 2022, more than 500 businesses and 1,900 workers took part in climate and sustainability upskilling programmes delivered through the Climate Ready Academy.

Green Tech Skillnet is promoted by Wind Energy Ireland and was established in 2014 to support the workforce development needs of businesses within the renewable energy and green technology sectors. Green Tech Skillnet is building the talent pipeline needed for the offshore wind energy opportunity and ranges from technical programmes in solar and wind installation, to energy storage, planning and accredited programmes for wind turbine technicians. Since that programme was launched in 2021, Green Tech Skillnet has supported over 70 people to become a fully-certified wind turbine technicians.

Sustainable Enterprise Skillnet is an industry-led training network of over 400 of Ireland's largest production and service sites across the manufacturing, biopharma, agrifood, energy, telecommunications and technology sectors. It delivers a range of programmes focused on energy, water and waste management and lean practices. The internationally recognised certified water steward training programme is run in partnership with Uisce Éireann and has trained over 600 employees in 400 firms over the past three years, thereby leading to significant business improvements in water efficiency and decarbonisation and contributing to the business competitiveness of the participating firms.

Skillnet Ireland and Bord Bia partnered to launch the Origin Green Academy, which is delivered by Sustainable Enterprise Skillnet. The Origin Green Academy will support Irish food, drink, and horticulture businesses to develop emissions reductions skills required to achieve ambitious emissions targets in the sector, accelerate their sustainability progress, and meet the expectations of both global consumers and legislative requirements such as the corporate sustainability reporting directive, CSRD.

Another priority supported by Skillnet Ireland is sustainable finance, which will play a key role in delivering on policy objectives under the climate action plan and the EU’s international commitments on climate and sustainability. In collaboration with Sustainable Finance Ireland and other partners, Skillnet Ireland part-funds the international sustainable finance centre of excellence, which aims to equip the financial services sector with the necessary skills to finance a net zero future. The centre is also responsible for delivering upon the sustainable finance road map, which is a commitment under the Ireland for Finance strategy.

We are witnessing a significant shift from businesses to adopting decarbonisation measures. Climate action has become a central competitive issue for firms, for reducing energy costs, in renewing supply chains, but also as a means of attracting and retaining talent. Yet our research that we can tell the committee about is also showing businesses need much greater knowledge and supports in order to integrate climate action within their business strategy and of course their day-to-day operations. By investing further in workforce development, Ireland can ensure that its workforce is equipped with the leading-edge skills required for a low-carbon future and, in doing so, capitalise on the immense economic opportunities that the green transition is presenting.

I would like to introduce my colleagues. With me is Tracey Donnery, who is the executive director of policy and communications with Skillnet Ireland. Joining us online are Dave Flynn, who is executive director of networks and who can give a more granular programme view, and Ken Stockil, director of the Sustainable Enterprise Skillnet and the Climate Ready Academy. Mr. Stockil deals with companies on the ground on a day-to-day basis in respect of the low carbon and decarbonisation agenda and can give a very good insight into what that looks like.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Healy. The two witnesses joining us online should indicate any time they want to come in. I ask Mr. Meally to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Declan Meally

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to attend the meeting to discuss the skills and supports required for businesses to meet their decarbonisation targets. I thank the committee for affording me the opportunity to present my opening statement.

The SEAI is at the heart of delivering Ireland’s energy revolution. Our vision is to be a leading authority driving Ireland’s sustainable energy transformation for the benefit of all of society. Ireland has ambitious energy and climate targets to achieve against the backdrop of post-pandemic supply chain impacts, inflation and the energy crisis. We passionately believe in this transformation, know it must happen and are working tirelessly to achieve it. We are doing this by driving the reduction and replacement of fossil fuel usage. We are a knowledge-led organisation, and we partner with citizens, communities, businesses and Government. We are trusted collaborators, innovators, funders and educators. The SEAI is funded by the Government of Ireland through the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Transport. In 2023, our total budget allocation is €594 million. We also work with and support all Departments and their agencies, including the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

The SEAI is key to informing, supporting, implementing and delivering Government energy policy and national climate action plans. Our programmes have a major impact on the Irish economy through home and community energy upgrades, business supports, research and innovation funding. The SEAI’s role and mandate is growing in response to increased climate change urgency. We are in a growth phase of our evolution, growing our core staff base to 235 employees this year. We are based in Dublin, Dundalk, Cork and Sligo. Our staff possess a very broad range of skill sets including engineering, data analysis and modelling, economics, behavioural science, finance, marketing, legal and administration. This mix reflects the skills required to meet the needs of current and future energy systems. We are grateful for the support of our parent department, the Department of Transport and the Department for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform as we scale up to enable the societal movement to an efficient energy system built on renewable energy sources.

Sustainable energy investment unlocks a multitude of benefits and addresses a broad range of Government priorities. Society benefits from reduced energy costs and emissions and increased national energy security. Homes and buildings are warmer and have improved air quality. Health outcomes improve with reductions in national and private health costs. Business and industry are more competitive, with more people employed in related supply chains. These benefits are far reaching and must be fully considered to properly contextualise the necessary investments. The costs of failing to make the required leap are incalculable. We must recognise our responsibility to each other, and globally. As a wealthy nation and due to our geographical location, Ireland has only started to experience the impacts of the changing climate and we have witnessed catastrophic events in parts of our planet where communities are less able to act. The demands on Ireland’s energy and environment require us to work at pace and to deliver ever greater results. That is what we in SEAI do, not just because it is our mission, but because it will provide a better life for individuals, businesses and communities long into the future.

On carbon dioxide emissions in the business sector, our Energy in Ireland 2022 Report shows Ireland’s business activities, including industry, commercial and public sector, accounted for 39.4% of the total energy demand. The emissions related to fossil fuel usage in the industry, commercial and public sectors is just over 12 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. There are approximately 300,000 industry, business and service organisations in Ireland, but just 250 large industry organisations account for approximately 80% of the industry sector energy-related emissions.

SEAI provides bespoke one to one decarbonisation support for these high emission organisations through our large industry energy network. SEAI also provides general decarbonisation support for all other business and service organisations which I will outline later.

SEAI has worked with small and large businesses for decades, supporting companies to implement energy management systems, investing in energy efficiency and renewable energy and transforming approaches to the design and operation of large energy consuming assets. SEAI’s work in developing energy management systems through the Irish Energy Management Standard 393 has formed the basis for international energy management standards such as ISO 50001 and, through SEAI’s work, Ireland is demonstrating leadership again with Irish Standard 399 the Energy Efficient Design standard. Irish companies are often at the vanguard of the implementation of these impactful standards and best practices providing a major competitive advantage to those companies.

Climate action and decarbonisation has risen up the corporate agenda significantly in recent years. Various businesses require assistance in building knowledge and capacity around energy and decarbonisation matters, identifying and planning solutions for addressing decarbonisation and delivering targeted impactful investments in energy efficiency and renewable energy. In recognition of the wide cohort of businesses, and the different stages they are at in their own decarbonisation journey, in recent years SEAI has enhanced the energy efficiency programmes into decarbonisation programmes. SEAI provides supports to both small and large business, broadly centred around two key themes; advisory and training supports and funding supports.

Advisory and training supports include online and in-person training, energy networks, guides, workshops, events and registers of professionals. Funding supports include audit supports, investment grants for solar PV, renewable heating, commercial building retrofit, and energy efficiency and a list of products that can avail of accelerated capital allowances. From 2021 to the end of September 2023, SEAI has supported over 7,400 business users who have enrolled in the SEAI Energy Academy. Almost 800 small businesses have completed introduction to energy management training. SEAI large industry energy network, LIEN, has held over 50 events, workshops and site visits. SEAI LIEN has established seven special working groups. Thousands of businesses have attended SEAI business briefings, SEAI energy shows, and the SEAI Energy Awards. In addition in 2022, SEAI provided grant support to 2,798 businesses totalling €57.6 million. In 2023, SEAI has provided grant support to 2,501 businesses totalling €31.4 million. A full list of advisory and training supports and funding supports is provided in the appendix of the document sent to the committee.

SEAI works closely with colleagues in Department of Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment, along with enterprise agencies, on supporting the achievement of emission reductions in both the commercial built environment and the industry sectors through the targets and actions in the climate action plan. Key areas of focus for the business sector will be supporting the commercial building retrofit targets, rolling out heat pump retrofits, biomass heating, district heating and supporting key sectors such as hotels, hospitality and offices and supporting the industry emissions targets, via heat pumps retrofits, biomass retrofits, renewable gas, and energy efficiency. SEAI is focused on expanding and enhancing supports to business, with several recent steps in response to climate action plan targets including the introduction of an accessible audit support for SMEs; enhancements to the support scheme for renewable heat from March 2023 to expand eligibility and increase support levels for heat pump and building retrofit projects; significant support for biomass projects within scheme; enhancements to the excellence in energy efficiency design, EXEED, grant scheme from March 2023 to expand maximum support and simplify scheme criteria; enhancements to the non-domestic microgeneration scheme to expand support to 1,000 kWp, from 6 kWp, from July 2023, increasing support levels up to €162,600; development of a new, SME-focused, retrofit grant, subject to final sanction and climate action fund allocation. Modelled on the microgeneration scheme, the scheme supports a range of building retrofit measures with a rapid approval model based on commoditised grant amounts.

In conclusion, SEAI has been central to energy efficiency and renewable energy deployments in the business sector for many decades and through existing, enhanced and new supports, has the tools to support ambitious businesses on their decarbonisation journey through a range of advisory, training and funding supports which are included in the appendix to this note, along with the 2022 achievements of the business, public sector and transport directorate.

An Cathaoirleach

I will now invite members who wish to contribute and ask them to indicate. The first is Deputy O'Reilly who has 14 minutes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I welcome our guests and thank them for their contributions. I will start with the representatives from Skillnet. Where does decarbonisation, climate and sustainability come in its engagement with businesses, specifically SMEs? Are people coming to Skillnet looking for this information or is it chasing them with it? I am struck by the figure in the SEAI submission that 80% was produced by a very small number of large firms. But the biggest challenge is often for small to medium enterprises. Where is it coming on their agenda? Is it top of the list, below that or at bottom of the meeting as something that they know they have to do? How can we gauge that? I want to get a sense of the sentiment from Skillnet.

Mr. Paul Healy

I would begin with the model and manner with which we engage with business. It is very much enterprise- or demand-led. These are clusters or groups of companies that identify the gaps and the issues themselves and then we collaborate with them to meet and design programmes that address those issues.

We are witnessing a growing engagement with companies but it is not standard. We see evidence that shows larger corporations and bigger businesses are more engaged in the decarbonisation agenda and they are certainly more engaged on the talent aspect of it and developing their people compared with the domestic SME sector. It is the typical reasons with which we may all be familiar: smaller firms are time poor; they are distracted with other agendas; and they may face a cost challenge that larger corporations do not. There is always the challenge of navigating the whole support ecosystem between education, grant supports and so on to help a small business in its decarbonisation journey. We see evidence, and we see it through our own numbers, of a growing appetite from companies from the enterprise sector to engage in decarbonisation and sustainability-related training programmes but it is not standard or homogenous. It is different by sector and by company.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Skillnet is obviously keeping an eye on that. It is enterprise led and to a certain extent, it has to wait for people to come to it. Is there a sense that there is a gap there? I am thinking about a bridge between getting the companies to come to Skillnet for this specifically rather than the other work with which they would be more familiar with Skillnet? Or is it happening at a pace with which Skillnet would be happy?

Mr. Paul Healy

It is probably a pace we are happy or fully comfortable with, given the urgency of the issue. We have been working with industry, and they with us, on the broader decarbonisation, sustainability and green-upskilling space going back to 2013 and 2014. Over the nine or ten years since, we have increased significantly our investment, working in collaboration with companies and developing these programmes hand-in-hand with industry to meet these. Equally, we are seeing support from our Department in terms of budget and other supports to allow us to address these particular challenges. To answer the question, there still remains a gap in awareness, in knowledge and skills and in broader supports that we can bring to small firms in the domestic sector in particular to help them with the transition.

Ms Tracey Donnery

In the past year we have had a marketing campaign, Think Climate, Think Talent, directing companies to our networks. That is done nationwide through a lot of regional media as well, alongside our comparable campaigns for digital. We are making an effort to ensure that businesses are aware of these supports. From our research we have found that companies do want it but they are just not always sure where to start. We are trying to encourage them to start with some of the programmes with the climate academy. The marketing campaign is making a difference because we are seeing growth year-on-year.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is good. I would tend to agree that the appetite is there. It is sometimes a case of letting people know that they need not be as worried as they might be and there is a bit of help there.

In that vein, can I ask about the supports that are in place? I refer to the preliminary supports, such as the climate action voucher. Are they working as a funnel to get businesses in, nearly as a hook? Then, when they are in, are the organisations able to expand the training and engagement? Are they keeping the businesses engaged? We all agree that nobody wants this to be a tick-box exercise. There has to be a continuation. It cannot simply be the case that someone will have done that course, got to the end of it, hit return, ticked the box, did the feedback, said the lunch was lovely and then were gone. It has to be a longer-term thing. Does what exists at the moment act as a hook? I am focusing particularly on small to medium-sized enterprises because a different challenge faces larger businesses. In terms of SMEs, are the vouchers working to get people in, to hook them in and then continue on that journey with them?

Mr. Paul Healy

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Stockil, who is online, to address the Deputy's question. He can bring that company lens as he deals with companies on the ground on a day-to-day basis.

Mr Ken Stockil

I agree with what Mr. Healy said in that while there has been a change how businesses perceive this challenge, there is still a huge gap in how they translate that into action. We have therefore tried to distil down a number of very simple first steps for these companies to engage them in programmes, such as the sustainability leaders programme. There, we sit down with each company and look at the sustainable development goals, SDGs, and what is material for their business, because ultimately companies want to build the capability to compete better. We speak to that and give them a framework whereby they can translate this ambition to take action on climate into practical steps that will benefit their business. The Deputy is right; this is the most challenging step in the whole process. It is crucial to ensure that transition and conversation is simple and there are clearly identifiable benefits for the companies at the end of it. That is why the sustainability leaders programme has proven so popular. We are rolling that programme out with the other agencies and are starting to customise it for particular sectors. If we can generate that initial engagement and appreciation of the benefits of taking action on climate and sustainability, the rest will flow from that. The companies then can move forward with their decarbonisation strategy, water shortage strategy and biodiversity strategy. However, that first engagement is crucial and that is why we have spent a lot of time investing in that particular step.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

That is good to know. I thank Mr. Stockil. I have a question on decarbonising the building stock businesses have as part of their physical infrastructure. The public service targets for 2030 are for a 51% reduction, for a 50% improvement in energy efficiency and for 100% of public sector buildings to have a building energy rating, BER, rating of B or higher. The commercial sector targets are for 30%; the witnesses will be familiar with these figures. Can they give us an update on what success has been achieved to date? Where are the blockages and issues? The targets have been set. I am unsure about whether the public targets will be met; I do not think they will be. In terms of both the private sector and the public services, how is that working?

Mr. Declan Meally

In relation to the Deputy's previous question on small businesses, last year energy might have been number eight or nine on their list of priorities, but the energy crisis jumped up to number two or three. It really drove them through it. We saw two issues. First, we had the voucher scheme, which they just applied for, and then the auditor looked after the administration. Therefore, they did not have any administration to do, which helped to point them in the right direction. Also, by working through networks such as Fáilte Ireland and the Irish Hotels Federation, we are getting the messages out there. That is how we are approaching our work with SMEs.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Does Mr. Meally believe that the voucher works as a hook to get businesses interested?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes. The key thing now is to get audits to action and moving them to the next stage. Again, it is key to work in combination with our partners in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and so on.

In relation to the non-domestic building stock, the Deputy is right that it is a challenge. There have been some very good developments in building regulations, which are looking at developing new building stock in the commercial sector. The Minister set up a heat task force at the start of this year. We have a commercial building working group that is looking at a roadmap for that group and developing that. I chaired a working group that looked at the public sector in that regard.

We have had some great successes over the last number of years where we worked with what I call the big five through a pathfinder programme. We worked with the HSE to look at the retrofitting of hospitals and hospital buildings. There were also schools. We worked with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to look at retrofitting universities and the education and training boards, ETBs, to show there are opportunities to do that. We are working with the Minister and the team in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to develop roadmaps for the decarbonisation of the commercial and public sector buildings in order to be able to achieve the targets. Naturally, there are challenges in relation to skills and the supply chain, because we are retrofitting homes, the commercial sector and the public sector. Again, we are working with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science as part of that and looking at the skills and the supply chain in order to be able to see these retrofits happen.

Through our programmes on the decarbonising of buildings, we are seeing great case studies on hotels and we are showing the way for others in the commercial sector in relation to what is possible. This includes changing out their fossil fuels for heat schemes. The Deputy will have seen that in the figures about providing grants. A large proportion of that is in decarbonising the heat in the commercial and public sector buildings. There has been €57 million on the commercial side, and this year there has also been €31 million in relation to the commercial side as well, in terms of offerings.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Specifically in terms of the public service targets for 2030, are we substantially on track to meet those?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes. Each public sector organisation has to show their climate action roadmap and set out their way to get there. We have still a way to go in terms of decarbonising the buildings, but as part of our national roadmap, they are identifying the route by which they could be able to hit the targets. This is not to say that they will not be tough, as with all our targets, such as domestic, transport and other targets. It is a glide path to show what we need to do. It will cost and we need to work out what the costs will be. It is a key issue.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

On the target for a BER of B or higher for 100% of public sector buildings, I am thinking of some of the public sector buildings I know of, some of which will be much more challenging than others. Will that be achievable by 2030?

Mr. Declan Meally

Again, we will have to look at how that will be achieved. We may decide not to use some of those buildings. Other buildings can be connected into district heating and renewable heating and can achieve targets that way. That is what the roadmap is looking at. It is saying that we will retrofit some, we will connect some to district heating, and we may move out of some of them where they are too inefficient. That is what the roadmap will have to look at over the next number of years.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is the SEAI keeping a tot of those buildings that have so far achieved a B rating? I am conscious that it is nearly 2024 and the target is for 100% by 2030. I understand that the targets are the targets and the ambition is the ambition. I just wonder if those targets will actually be hit.

Mr. Declan Meally

That is the ambition of all the Departments and public sector organisations we are working with in order to hit their 51% reduction in emissions. This will also be through building retrofits and through the change of behaviours regarding use, reducing their use and reducing the energy going into buildings. We collect the information on energy use across the public sector. This year, in the public sector working group, we are making sure we have a collection of information on all the buildings and know exactly about all the public sector buildings. We are making sure we have a good stock-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Is Mr. Meally then saying that the stage the public services are now at is collating the rating of the buildings at the moment?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank Mr. Meally.

An Cathaoirleach

We will move on to a Fine Gael slot, which is 14 minutes in total.

Deputy David Stanton

I will go first. I welcome the witnesses to the committee meeting. It is good to meet the team and I thank them for the work they are doing. Because this is the committee on enterprise, trade and employment, we are interested in how the work the representatives are doing has an impact on business and enterprises. This is hugely important, as the witnesses have said.

I will ask Mr. Healy to respond first. He outlined what Skillnet has been doing, which is very impressive. Has he measured the outcome of the work he is doing? Does he have any way of telling us what impact it has had to date? Are there any metrics available?

Mr. Paul Healy

There are two means by which we evaluate the programmes that we deliver in terms of impact. The first is that each programme is subject to its own evaluation and then, on a biannual basis, we subject the full Skillnet Ireland programme to independent evaluation. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Flynn, to comment on this as well. One observation I would add is that the model that we have is driven very much from the requests and demands coming from firms. Through the evaluations that we have done over the years since our establishment, we are seeing a really strong correlation between the programmes that are delivered and what firms actually need and therefore the impact.

I would just add a second observation to that. It is a cost-sharing model. Last year we raised €26 million in the cost-sharing of programmes. The philosophy of cost sharing is very important to us because that ties into the impact. Typically, employers will not pay for something that is not moving the needle for them or where they are not seeing a tangible difference on the ground. We are always sensitive to the value for money of the programmes we invest in and the impact of those programmes, but, in particular, their relevance to industry. I might invite my colleague, Dave Flynn, who oversees our evaluations, to contribute to the response to the Deputy's question.

Mr. Dave Flynn

Sure. I will just expand on Mr. Healy's opening comment. Typically, every two years we subject all our programmes to independent evaluation. This is where an economic consultancy will come in and engage directly with the businesses that we support each year. It will get down under the bonnet, as it were, and look at specific impacts in terms of increases in innovation capacity, increased quality of product, increased staff engagement levels and so on. The most recent evaluation, which was published in January, showed that 50% of companies that participated in the programme indicated that the impact of engaging in Skillnet supported training had made significant inroads into the key business areas of staff engagement and innovation and in the context of the quality of products and services. As with any evaluation, there are aspects to be developed and improved over the years, but the scale of impact is consistent with previous evaluations which speaks to a very tangible impact on the ground.

Deputy David Stanton

The two things we are interested in when it comes to business are decarbonisation targets and the cost savings involved. The witnesses might come back to us with figures in that regard at some stage. They probably do not have them with them today.

The submission indicates that Skillnet Ireland provided training supports to 24,747 businesses and 92,000 trainees in 2022. It also states that 500 businesses and 1,900 workers took part in climate and sustainability upskilling programmes offered by the Climate Ready Academy. Obviously, there is a lot of work to be done yet. Skillnet will not be out of work for a long time on the basis of those figures. It is stated that 70 people have, supported by Skillnet, become certified wind turbine technicians. How did Skillnet support them?

Mr. Paul Healy

In the first instance, we are supporting businesses with the climate change agenda and skills for climate change, but also with the digital agenda. We are also helping develop small business owners. We work with the foreign direct investment, FDI, sector. Like every agency, we have a resource and we have to stretch it.

To give an indication of the companies that we support, 16% are in the dedicated green space that I talked about in terms of decarbonisation and related aspects. We are prioritising that area but we recognise that we need to encourage more firms to engage with us. We need to encourage more industry groups to engage with us and to avail of the calibre and quality of these programmes that have been developed. Could Deputy Stanton please remind me of the second part of his question?

Deputy David Stanton

How did Skillnet support 70 people to become fully certified wind turbine technicians?

Mr. Paul Healy

That was a particularly interesting one. We are at full employment in the economy. Every company, or at least most companies, have a staffing challenge of some kind and it is difficult to try and fill vacancies and so on. That programme was offered through what we call our skills connect courses which help people who are seeking work or who wish to make a career switch. The way the programme works is that it is a fully funded programme. We promote the programme heavily, or Wind Energy Ireland does in this case, to try to find people who wish to make that career switch or who are unemployed. It is a fully funded programme that comes with a company placement and all the scaffolding, if you like, that we need to put around somebody to come out with a qualification like that. It is a creative way of dealing with the skills shortfall and challenge that we are seeing generally in the wind energy space, by looking at the unemployed and career switchers.

Deputy David Stanton

Is there an unpaid placement as part of the training, which can go on for quite a while?

Mr. Paul Healy

I might ask Mr. Flynn to comment on the nature of the placement on that programme.

Mr. Dave Flynn

I am certain that placements for that programme are paid. If we need to clarify this after the meeting, however, we will revert to the committee. Sometimes, some of our skills connect programmes are shorter offerings that may be delivered over a week or two. They are not always paid. For the longer placements, we encourage our skill and business networks to work with their companies to make sure they are paid.

Deputy David Stanton

To encourage people to take part in programmes, they have to be supported financially. I have come across one in particular which involved an unpaid placement. That was a major disincentive for the individual concerned to carry on with the training. I will leave it at that and the witnesses might come back to me on it.

We are also interested in hearing from the SEAI about safety, which is extremely important. I notice that there are two lists, an installer registration form and also a company registration form. The company registration form lists 49 conditions, which is amazing. Both forms are very rigorous. The installer registration form refers to the training the installer has. As the witnesses are aware, there are 12 different institutions that train installers, who must be certified and qualified, in particular if they are dealing with electricity, solar energy, and so forth. That has been done well. If somebody registers with the SEAI and it is all fine and they go through the form they also have to be registered with Safe Electric. What happens if they lose their registered electrical contractor, REC, status for some reason? Is there a check to ensure that everybody who works through an SEAI forum is on Safe Electric's register of electrical contractors?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

I will take this question. I understand Deputy Stanton is talking about the solar PV registers. There are two separate registers. One is for domestic and one is for non-domestic. For each installation, we are in receipt of what is known colloquially as a RECI certificate. This is now a Safe Electric REC certificate and the registered electrical contractor's number is included on it. We do a certain amount of cross-checking of those at an administrative stage during the payment to ensure that the registration is up to date. Also, all installers have to reregister on an annual basis and show that their insurance, registration and so on is up to date.

Deputy David Stanton

Is Dr. Sharkey telling me that the SEAI checks on a regular basis with Safe Electric to ensure that all the people registered with it are currently registered with Safe Electric?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We do cross-checks on a sample basis.

Deputy David Stanton

SEAI only does a sample. Why does it not check all of them?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We do all of them at registration.

Deputy David Stanton

If somebody drops out in the meantime and is deregistered for whatever reason by Safe Electric and the SEAI only checks a sample, is it possible that it could miss out on people who may be deemed not suitable to do this work by Safe Electric?

Mr. Declan Meally

We keep in constant contact with Safe Electric. It informs us if someone had deregistered.

Deputy David Stanton

Is Mr. Meally saying that Safe Electric informs the SEAI if it deregisters somebody from its list?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes. In terms of the communication, I have not personally had any direct involvement with RECI or any case from our non-domestic side of anybody being deregistered but we are in constant discussions with RECI and it is the same with companies installing a PV system or working on electric vehicle charging. It is its responsibility to make sure that registered installers are still on the system.

If an installer is de-registered, we would anticipate that he or she would inform us.

Deputy David Stanton

The SEAI may anticipate that but my understanding is that this is not the case. I am quite worried about somebody who may be unsuitable doing certified electrical installations through Safe Electric. I will leave it at that but it is an issue I wanted to raise with the witnesses.

Mr. Declan Meally

We can talk to the Deputy directly about that afterwards, particularly if he is aware of something.

Deputy David Stanton

Perhaps he can talk to Safe Electric as well, because it is hugely important.

There are companies on the register. I commend the SEAI on the form, which is very comprehensive and detailed, with 49 conditions and so on. The SEAI says that it checks insurance every year to make sure that cover is in place and I think the amount is more than €6 million. I am asking these questions because this whole area is expanding very quickly, thankfully, but there is always a risk when something expands quickly that people who are not qualified or trained will get involved, as happened in other jurisdictions. This is something we must be very careful about, especially in the context of health and safety. Representatives of the Health and Safety Authority were before this committee previously and this is an area about which we are very concerned.

I am concerned that a company might hire somebody who is not on the RECI list or on the SEAI's list to do non-domestic microgeneration installation work. How can the owner of a business be sure that the person doing the work is actually qualified and certified to do it?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

The registered electrical contractor or the registered installer is the person who holds the required competencies and qualifications to sign off on the project. He or she is the one who has to sign the declaration of work, the commissioning certificate and obviously, the set of electrical certificates. They are the three pieces of documentary evidence that the work has been certified by the competent person. Obviously, we are doing a certain amount of checking on that, including physical inspections on sites. There are obviously a quality control procedures and if there are issues found in terms of compliance, electrical safety and so on, that could ultimately lead to de-registration as an installer on our scheme.

Deputy David Stanton

That is good to hear and I thank Dr. Sharkey for that.

I am sure our witnesses are familiar with the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS. It provides a 40% grant on a solar PV investment. The Teagasc website indicates that young qualified farmers can get up to 60% in grant aid and that PV installers need to be on the SEAI register of installers or the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's approved list. What is the correlation between the Department's list and the SEAI's list? Is there any link? Does the SEAI have any involvement-----

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

I am not aware of a separate list. I understood that the Department required the use of SEAI registered installers for that scheme but the Deputy is now informing me that there is a separate list, of which I was not aware.

Deputy David Stanton

According to the TAMS application form, there is a list of contractors. It is almost a mirror image of the SEAI application in that there is a list of contractors and a list of installers. I just wanted to know if the SEAI was aware of this.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We worked very closely with our colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine when they were developing that scheme. We went through why we have minimum qualifications, how we manage it and why we have a separate register for companies. The company register is really to help home owners or businesses to find a company because they are not going to ring individual installers who are named on the register; we want them to contact the companies. It is more of a guiding register whereas the core register is the installer register.

Deputy David Stanton

The bottom line here is that the person who does the work and signs off on it is an installer who is registered with the SEAI. That is hugely important.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Correct, and that is the vital register, the one containing the names of those who hold the minimum qualifications.

Deputy David Stanton

The business owner has access to that list, can double check it and is advised to do so.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Yes, that is correct.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Garvey is next.

Senator Róisín Garvey

On the overall figures, we all know the climate action plan figures and the Paris Agreement figures but it is always good to have targets outside of the 51% by 2030 one. Does Skillnet have any way of measuring the carbon reductions it is expecting or hoping for from its training? The SEAI also needs annual targets and not just targets for 2030 and 2050. Do the witnesses have any breakdown of targets? Have they figured out targets for themselves that they need to be aiming for?

On the SEAI website there is a list of registered guys and girls who can do the work under various grant schemes and for businesses but they are not listed geographically. It is hard for people who are new to the whole thing to know how to pick one out of so many when there is no geographic link. If they could get someone in their own county or could find out from someone who used an installer in their county, that would reduce the costs and also reduce the carbon footprint of the people doing the work as well. We are missing a trick there. Even if an installer covers the whole country, he or she usually has a base somewhere. Having a list of a million different companies that provide all of these services is not particularly useful. It would speed things up and give people more confidence if they could find a provider in their own or in neighbouring counties. That is something that the SEAI should look at.

I met with representatives of SOLAS, the head of apprenticeships, Enterprise Ireland, and Business in the Community as my party's spokesperson for enterprise, trade and employment. I am really concerned about the targets and am not sure how it all works. All of the aforementioned bodies, as well the witnesses, are doing the work of setting targets, upskilling businesses, conducting audits and so on and I feel there is duplication. I am not sure how they are all working together in providing audits, supports, steps, programmes, toolkits and lots of other thing. The bottom line is that most small businesses that I am most concerned about do not have the time for any of that; they just want to know where the money is. The green for micro scheme, for example, involves a two-day audit, which is a good thing because somebody comes into the business and the audit is linked to a specific grant. However, there is the climate action toolkit and so many other things out there. I tried to do a newsletter for all SMEs but it was a nightmare to try to figure it out, even for me who has the time to do it, with a staff member and researcher helping me. How is a small business owner going to get his or her head around the whole thing? There has to be another way. We have to streamline it in some way. All of the bodies involved, including SOLAS, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Enterprise Ireland, the LEOs, SEAI and Skillnet have to get together in a room and figure it out in some way. They are all doing the work but there are too many different things and it is chaotic for business owners. I say this on the basis of working with small business owners all of the time. I would love to see it all streamlined to make it easier for people. At the end of the day, they pretty much know it is about reducing their energy bills but they want to know how they can do that and what supports are available to them. It is not rocket science but they do not have time to go through all of the different facets.

How does Skilllnet engage with the education and training boards, ETBs, the other educational facilities and with SOLAS? How do we make sure that they are all in it together? How can it be ensured that all courses, whether they are short or long, degrees or night classes, are getting us to where we need to be? We know we have potentially thousands of jobs in the green economy and are losing jobs in other areas of the economy as a result of climate change but we really need to makes sure that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet and that all the relevant bodies are working together. Keeping all the courses up to date is absolutely essential if we are going to meet the needs of the built environment and reduce the carbon footprint. I read recently that 50 million tonnes of timber are thrown away in Europe every day and I am sure Ireland has a part to play in that. There are lots of great State agencies and lots of good things are happening, but the more meetings I have with them, the more I feel that they all need to be in the one room together to make sure that together they succeed in meeting what are enormous targets. The energy sector has enormous targets because carbon emissions from energy are massive.

There are other issues I wish to raise but maybe I can get some answers to those questions first.

Mr. Paul Healy

I thank the Senator for her questions. I will take the first one on company targets and impact. The programmes that we deliver through the Climate Ready Academy - and my colleague Mr. Stockil can provide a bit more granularity on this - come with things which are practical implementation outputs. What do I mean by that, in plain English? I mean things like action plans for a company and company charters, so that this is not something that happens in a training programme that is distant from the company. This is all about applied, implemented actions arising out-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

I know they have actions and I understand that. My question was whether Skillnet has targets overall for the number of companies it helps to reduce their emissions. Does Skillnet have targets? I am not interested in the targets of the companies. Every company has a target to reduce its energy bills so we do not have to worry about them in terms of having targets. We have to reach the overall 51% target. What have Skillnet and the SEAI done in setting targets for themselves? The green for micro scheme in County Clare, for example, is being run by the LEO but it is separate and distinct from a workshop that is being run through the SEAI and Enterprise Ireland on auditing and all of that.

We have 4,000 SMEs in County Clare, five of which did the energy audit, which is linked to a grant. The target for the year was 17. I really worry that if we as statespeople and State agencies do not have really clear targets, it is going to be hard to make sure we engage with businesses and for them to take up the mantle. If we do not help them and get them engaged, we will not reach the targets. That is why am asking whether Skillnet has targets for itself. I know businesses have targets. They always want to reduce their bills. I am not worried about them having targets. Has Skillnet broken it down? Has it got annual targets?

Mr. Paul Healy

We do.

Senator Róisín Garvey

What are they?

Mr. Paul Healy

We have an overall target through our performance delivery agreement with the Department, which is 90,000 trainees and 25,000 companies in this given year. I can absolutely-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

Surely, it is the carbon targets it needs most of all because Skillnet is going to engage with businesses forever. It is the carbon emissions it needs to focus on.

Mr. Paul Healy

To the specific question, bearing in mind that we are supporting other areas in which carbon, decarbonisation and climate change is not our sole objective.

Senator Róisín Garvey

It is the number one thing cost-wise and climate-wise.

Mr. Paul Healy

It is. Our target this year is to support 2,000 businesses and 8,000 employees on programmes dedicated to-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

Has Skillnet got carbon targets for this year?

Mr. Paul Healy

We do not-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

It is focusing on the engagement.

Mr. Paul Healy

It is focusing on the outputs and training in companies-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

Grand. Are there plans to have carbon emissions in the future, maybe next year or the year after?

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator's time is well up if she wants a quick answer from the SEAI.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

They are really important questions. We have targets. We could look at it in a million ways but we have to look at how it falls. We boil it down to this. In industry, there is a target to reduce emissions by 2.5 million tonnes, give or take, and in buildings, public and commercial, it is approximately 7.5 million tonnes.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Is that by 2030?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Correct.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Seven years.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

That feeds down then into all of our targets. However, give or take our targets, obviously, we can only achieve what we are given in grant funding. Each grant funding we expend delivers an emission saving but generally, we are talking about this. In the last 30 years, we had targets in and around 100 kilotonnes or 0.1 million tonnes. In some years, such as 2021, we exceeded that. We are a bit behind in 2022. However, we also have other targets, like Skillnet, for how many businesses to engage. We have to look at it as a funnel whereby if we can get X number of businesses training and Y amount of businesses into an audit, that will mean we can get Z number of businesses to invest in energy efficiency and decarbonisation. We do, therefore, have a huge number of targets there.

The Senator talked about the registers and counties. Our registers are counties served, in the main, but there is obviously information about where the companies are based within the registers as well.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I could not find that on the SEAI's website at all. I literally could not find it anywhere.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Most of them would be what counties they serve rather than the county in which they are based. Of course, some companies, particularly the bigger companies, will say they are national. Others will be Cork-based and say they serve Cork.

Senator Róisín Garvey

It was hard to find the counties they served as well. We have it to make it customer-----

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Which particular register? Was it the solar register or-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

A one-stop-shop, for example.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Sharkey very much.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

If the Senator wishes, I can follow up with more information.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I thank Mr. Sharkey.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator's time is up. I will move on. Deputy Shanahan has seven minutes.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I wish the Chairman a good morning and thank the guests. I only have seven minutes so I would like to split my time evenly. I will put three broad questions to each of the representative organisations. First, in terms of the Green Tech Skillnet activity, particularly in terms of wind and solar, I would like to reflect on what my colleague beside me said about questioning 70 wind technician placements paid and approved. That seems a very low number to me. What engagement is Skillnet having with third-level education or with broad industry in terms of trying to widen this out and create courses for that shortage?

Ms Tracey Donnery

Really, that is just one programme for those who are unemployed and seeking to enter the wind energy sector. The Green Tech Skillnet network does actually do a lot of other programmes on wind energy that are not that specific one; they are not technician programmes. Mr. Healy might be able to speak more about those.

Mr. Paul Healy

As a clarification, the industry partner organisation is Wind Energy Ireland, which has a very strong network of companies within its cluster. In many ways, it is giving a lot of leadership as an industry sector to the talent agenda. I will invite my colleague, Mr. Flynn, to comment on the broader range of programmes that are being offered to the offshore and greentech sectors.

Mr. Dave Flynn

To Mr. Healy's and Ms Donnery's point, that was a single example of a programme aimed at people who want to get back into the workplace, but the vast majority of programmes that will be delivered by Green Tech Skillnet are for people who are in employment and who need upskilling in terms of technical skills to do onshore and offshore wind. The programmes will deliver a greater understanding and awareness of regulation policy, changes coming down the tracks and so on. That particular network is working closely with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications around the development of a research report that will actually begin to quantify the types of skills that will be needed for offshore to be able to deliver that at scale over the years ahead. That report is due to be published by the end of this year.

I will go back to a point Senator Garvey touched on around the impacts in terms of existing programmes and courses. That research piece will help to bring forward changes that are needed to research.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank Mr. Flynn. I am sorry; I am going to have to cut him short. Perhaps he might just respond with the totality, if he knows it, of the numbers of placements he is envisaging for the current year. He can come back to me in writing. It is just that I have two other questions and I am tight on time.

Skillnet stated in its report that it has invested €70 million in industry training of which €26.5 million was contributed from the private sector. What public spend contribution comes into that number, if any? In terms of training in the public sector, what kind of contributions is Skillnet seeing money-wise?

Mr. Paul Healy

Our mandate points us to the private sector and the commercial semi-State sector. That is the workforce, if you like, that is in scope. Primarily, we are working with private sector companies. However, and it is important to say this, we are working with employees in the commercial semi-State bodies, particularly on this agenda. Mr. Stockil might comment briefly on this to give the Deputy a texture of the types of engagement we are doing in the public sector through the commercial semi-State bodies.

Mr Ken Stockil

I will comment very briefly. To give the Deputy a sense of a particular example of the kind of engagements we have through the Climate Ready Academy with an organisation like the CIÉ Group, we have been working with it for approximately 18 months now to roll out a comprehensive transformational talent development programme across the organisations involved including workforce development, with every employee being trained up on the fundamentals of sustainability throughout the organisation, to the establishment of a number of leaders in sustainability, decarbonisation, water stewardship and biodiversity across that organisation. It is, therefore, a holistic approach to that particular organisation. That is part of what the Climate Ready Academy seeks to do with those types of organisations.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

I thank Mr. Stockil very much indeed for the answer. This is a very important point going forward. It is very important to target the private sector, but it is very important that we start getting training done in the public sector.

I will go to the SEAI. I thank our guests. In terms of the SEAI's statements and decarbonisation roadmap, it has highlighted the retrofit programmes that are basically serving industry and the private and public sectors as well. We have a definite skill shortage. What programmes is the SEAI looking at in terms of trying to deliver value for money within the retrofitting programme? The retrofitting programme is actually not working for the simple reason that people can go to a private contractor and get a retrofitting quotation, even for a deep retrofit, at about maybe €60,000 or €70,000. When it is done through the retrofitting programme, it is coming out at approximately €120,000. Unfortunately, it seems to be that for people who are applying to the programme, the cost that the State is being charged in terms of grants is way higher than would be charged if the work was being done as a private arrangement with a homeowner. I accept that it is probably not the same for industry in the public sector, but just for the private sector.

Mr. Declan Meally

From the perspective of the grant system and from what we have seen with businesses, we sense-check the prices in terms of any of the industry retrofits. Similarly, any of the retrofits through the public sector are done through public procurement. All of that is procured through a tendering process so that we are getting the most competitive price in relation to the funding that is provided. Similarly, in terms of the works that are out there, we do a sense-check to see whether the costs are in the order of what they should be for businesses and the commercial sector.

My colleagues are not here from the residential side, but we also do constant checks with regard to what is coming in in terms of the cost of the grant. The grants for the domestic side are fixed, so they are fixed rates. Again, that is a proportion of what we pay in relation to domestic costs. There may be people who are saying they will operate outside a grant, but they are not working to the quality or level of rigour in terms of inspections and otherwise and to the quality standard we would be putting them through.

There are a lot of things at play but what we are seeing coming through in the public and commercial sectors are legitimate and appropriate costs. Again, we provide a percentage of the grant to the businesses and the public sector.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Mr. Meally mentioned public procurement. I am not a fan of the robustness of public procurement because I have seen too much of it that is not robust. Many people are left outside the process because of definitions and standards and they are not interested in tendering. That leaves a very small number of people. There is no real competition. Perhaps that is something we could have a chat about in the second round.

I have one other question. We are hearing about modular building systems all over the place. What role does the SEAI have to play in the certification of new modular systems that are being looked at in the building programme?

Mr. Declan Meally

There is no role for the SEAI in that regard.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Is it just the standards authority?

Mr. Declan Meally

The assessment of the building energy rating would be it. The certification of the buildings themselves or their standard is outside our remit. That would be for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and others. If a building was looking for an energy rating, our assessors would go in.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Does the authority have a role as regards modular panel building? Does it examine the panels? Does it have a role in certifying energy standards in that regard?

Mr. Declan Meally

That is done through the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, rather than through us.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

They would need to meet the building regulations in terms of energy performance and result in a certain BER, an area we are in involved in. However, such systems are mostly regulated under the building regulations, building control and so on.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Skillnet's figures show that more than 1,700 businesses are involved in sustainable programmes while the SEAI has given grant support to 2,500 but there are 300,000 businesses in Ireland so the level of participation is less than 1%. Based on the witnesses' experience, does a more effective tool for mobilising businesses to take up the compelling and transformative change they need to undertake need to be considered? Enterprise Ireland officials came before the committee and said that the ability of businesses to make these transformational changes is the key to competitiveness. This might be along the lines the Senator has suggested, that is, integrating the work of the two bodies and taking a sectoral approach. There are various ways in which this could be cut that are different from what we are doing now. That is my first question.

For my second question, I would be interested in knowing what the organisations' audit schemes are throwing up in respect of opportunities or needed changes that are not being addressed. If a survey of the typical audits was done, what scale of a gap would be shown and what would that tell us about the journey we have to take? I presume that, of those who participate in the follow-up, some do part, some do lots and some do very little. What is the scale of the issue and can that shed light on where we need to go?

I believe the SEAI monitors the performance of each body in the public sector. I do not necessarily want them to be named and shamed but are details of the laggards published? Can the authority give us any general information about those that are not responding to the challenges Government has set for them? What are the features of such bodies and what obstacles do they claim to face? What pressure is put on such bodies? If they have not done what is asked of them this year, what happens next? Does the authority sit on them or force through audits? Does it have powers to compel those who will not do what is asked of them? Those are my three questions.

Mr. Paul Healy

I thank the Deputy for his questions. On the broader question of impact, the size of the enterprise base and how we can reach and support so many companies, we saw a lot of growth when the Deputy, as Minister for Education and Skills, gave us great support for our budget. Over a seven-year period, our combined budget grew from €22 million to €70 million. However, we still have a long way to go in engaging with companies, particularly in the domestic sector.

Deputy Richard Bruton

There is only so much the budget can do but is the method through which we are now engaging, which, as Mr. Healy said, is demand-led, totally inadequate for the scale of the challenge? It is only reaching 1%. Do we need to think differently if we are to get to the other 99%?

Mr. Paul Healy

We do. Within our scope and our model, we are engaging with clusters of businesses. That generally involves a company, whether large or small, that has a relationship with an organisational body with a cluster of some kind. However, many firms, particularly locally trading firms, do not have such a relationship. The challenge is reaching those small business owners, getting them to start thinking about engaging and training their staff to be more productive and more competitive and to give career choice and options to their employees and bringing them into the range of supports that are available throughout the whole ecosystem, not just through ourselves, but through other bodies. That is a challenge. How are we addressing that? We are trying to form new clusters and we are bringing in new networks as often as we can. We have regular promotion and social media and national media campaigns to encourage that cohort of companies that are not engaging on this agenda. To go back to something I said earlier, there is a consistency in the barriers we hear about. There are issues with time poverty, cost burdens on smaller firms in particular and the challenge Senator Garvey cogently expressed regarding the complexity in the system and knowing where to start and where to end as the owner of a small firm. That is a challenge we are certainly facing. Within our mandate and our resources, we are trying to grow the number of companies engaging with us and, through that, the number of employees. Ms Donnery might want to add to that.

Ms Tracey Donnery

In addition to the enterprise-led supports, we also established the Climate Ready Academy in 2021. This engages with enterprise and balances enterprise-led support with the provision of structure. We have designed programmes, which are available to companies for free, in partnership with Mr. Stockil, the SEAI and other agencies. We are doing both to prioritise and emphasise the importance of a wide range of climate skills.

Mr. Declan Meally

I will start at the back end regarding the public sector. We do an annual report on the public sector. It is published and covers all 350 organisations. We can see exactly how each is doing and how it has progressed over the past couple of years. The public sector has been doing very well overall. It hit the 2020 energy efficiency targets and, with regard to decarbonisation, we are on the glide path to where we need to be. However, the challenges are getting steeper as we have to get into deeper retrofits. We are starting to get in there. One of the areas we are seeing highlighted as we develop the roadmap is the capacity within the public sector to take on these projects rather than just the supply chain outside. There are opportunities there. We have seen increases in the health sector because of Covid and the greater use of hospitals and health centres. However, in general, organisations across the public sector are doing well. Each individual organisation will now have to publish its own climate action roadmap each year, showing what it is doing.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Where we do not have capacity, do we make use of energy-saving companies that go in and design changes, earning their money from the savings?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes. The energy companies themselves have an obligation to work with the public sector and businesses to find energy efficiencies and savings within those organisations. There are also energy service companies. We have a list of auditors, practitioners, advisors and organisations and, across the public sector, we are developing energy bureaus to develop expertise within those organisations to build internal capacity and help them understand what they need to do. We have seen an exemplar in the HSE with its decarbonisation roadmap. The Department of Education has also published such a roadmap. These are all showing a lead and a route forward towards reaching their targets.

On the business side, to go back to Senator Garvey's questions, we collaborate on the climate toolkit. We fed into that. We are signposting that these are not additional services and that we are all within the umbrella of the climate toolkit through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We are using networks such as the Irish Hotels Federation, IBEC and the Small Firms Association to make sure the message is getting out there. Deputy Bruton is right that more activity could be happening but we are channelling our efforts through every channel available to us and making sure that businesses are aware of supports and that the system is as easy to access as possible because businesses being time poor can be an issue in keeping activity going.

The opportunities we are seeing through the audits is that businesses can see up to 70% savings opportunities in some areas and it is at least pointing them to where they can achieve the savings. In many cases, they could achieve up to 30% savings by just changing behaviours and switching things off, so it is actually low cost and no cost opportunities. These are the measures we are making as case studies and then publishing to others in their sectors so they can see what they can do.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Do we need to move towards a point where conditionality comes in on other aspects of their activity? In other words, if they fail to do some of these low-level steps that some other expectation that the company has is restrained.

Mr. Declan Meally

Financing organisations are now looking for their energy management plans and will not give them loans if they do not have a decarbonisation strategy and can show how they will manage that. It is conditional on them getting funding going forward, even for their businesses so it is coming that way as well, in terms of the requirements for them to show that they are actually taking action.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and answering the questions so far. I will follow up on what Deputy Bruton was talking about in relation to just 1% of businesses really engaging in it. Mr. Meally spoke about how the business sector accounts for slightly less than 40% of the energy demands and 250 companies account for 80% of that 40%.

Mr. Declan Meally

Not quite. Of the industry sector, 250 account for the 80% of the industry-related figure.

Senator Garret Ahearn

What percentage of the total is that?

Mr. Declan Meally

I do not have that figure to hand but I think it is about 15% to 20%. In any case, it is big hitters. I can come back to the Senator on that.

Senator Garret Ahearn

It is a massive area and we have targets to hit for 2030 and 2050. I acknowledge the good work that Skillnet is doing. I see it my own county of Tipperary and in Clonmel in particular, and in the agricultural sector. We have targets to hit and informing and educating companies is really important in the long run. I am sure that Skillnet does not have enough staff to meet every single company to get targets to be hit by 2030. That is pretty much impossible. For those 250 companies, what is being done to make sure they hit they hit the required targets? What percentage of those companies has Skillnet engaged with and what has been the success rate? What has been the feedback from them? What is Mr. Meally's sense from those 250 companies in terms of delivering targets that would be effective nationally?

Mr. Declan Meally

The feedback has been excellent. We have been working with them for over 20 years in terms of their glide path. I am working with Merck Sharp and Dohme, MSD, in the Senator's own area of Clonmel. It is an exemplar in that area. We visited there just over a month ago, and they showed us what they have done to decarbonise the whole site with their solar initiatives. They have also been doing working with us on ISO 50001, the energy management strategy. That is what all of the large industries are doing. More than 200 of those 250 are working with us because it is a huge bang for buck in relation to the opportunities for reaching the targets. They are extremely active and exemplars internationally in terms of what they are doing in Ireland and as I said, the one on the Senator's doorstep is particularly effective. I will allow Dr. Sharkey to talk about the larger industries and the engagement we have with those.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Mr. Meally is referring to our large industry energy network. We also have capital grants aimed at the electrification of heat in industry. In the past two or three years, this has become a significant big hitter. We see a huge cohort of those that are planning or actively making investments or have made investments in heat pumps or direct electrification of heat with electric boilers. We are also seeing biomass being deployed by those large energy users. We have decades of experience where they are at the forefront of energy efficiency, so we are optimising their processes. We support that through the EXEED grant scheme. This enables companies to deep dive into their processes and reconfigure their manufacturing process to design energy out from the get-go. This has been very successful for a number of large energy users. Onsite renewable generation is another area. There had been a cohort that installed wind turbines, like the well known example of the Cork lower harbour group. We are now seeing a big expansion of solar in these large industries. Some of them are installing solar farms adjacent to their site, reducing their overall electricity emissions to almost zero. They are also producing electricity off-site through corporate power purchase agreements, PPA, where a wind farm is built and they are utilising that electricity via the electricity networks on site. There is a huge amount of activity going on. Big strides are being made. As Mr. Meally mentioned, large corporates have a lot of pressure from their shareholders, boards and financing agencies. They do not want to invest in something that is locked into fossil fuel usage and therefore, potentially creates a future risk for the investment. There is a huge amount of activity and we are there supporting them on the planning, funding and delivery aspects.

Senator Garret Ahearn

I am delighted Dr. Sharkey mentioned MSD, because I am going there on Friday to meet them for an update on these issues. The company has been a huge employer for Clonmel for 40 years.

Mr. Declan Meally

It really is an exemplar company.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Yes, I agree. I have family working there so I know I know it quite well, as do most families in Clonmel. We know that about 200 of those 250 engage. Of those 50 that have not, is there a plan in place to improve engagement? Regarding the targets we have to hit for 2030, do we have separate targets for those 250 companies? Even though they are doing extremely well, do we have targets that will allow us to show what the large companies have done and have changed over the last five years, ten years or 20 years and this is where we hope they will get to by 2030? In this race to try to change how things are done, there are different sectors and different companies saying "we will do our share if they do their share". Typically it comes from agriculture, obviously. I would be interested to see what Skillnet has done to engage with agriculture. There is an issue of people in one sector feeling that people in other sectors are not making as much of an effort. If we can show that these big companies have made massive changes over the last number of years it would be very helpful. Are there targets for them separately outside the industrial sector?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Individual companies are not set individual targets by the State. There is a 35% reduction target on industry and carbon budgets associated with that, which have a frontloading effect. In dealing with these companies we see that their ambition is greater than the State's, in the main. They are achieving the minimum of 35% and sometimes up to 60% or 70%. We have looked at these climate action plans and the IDA and Enterprise Ireland are key here. The indigenous companies are under the remit of Enterprise Ireland, and it has a strong focus on that footprint, while the IDA works with the foreign direct investment, FDI, companies. We work closely with them, to help them measure the progress at a more granular, company by company level to see where the issues are.

Mr. Declan Meally

It is through the enterprise agencies that we will be able to get at the other 50. The number at present is about 207 to 210. It is a case of activity and working with each of those organisations. We have visibility and traction with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland to get to those companies.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Of those 50 companies, is it a particular sector or is it just random businesses that have not engaged?

Mr. Declan Meally

Generally it is just random businesses but as I said, we have all the big hitters.

Senator Garret Ahearn

Is it possible to provide the committee with the information on those 250 businesses and what they have done and achieved?

Mr. Declan Meally

We have an large industry energy network, LIEN, report each year that is outlined and shows how they performed each year.

Senator Garret Ahearn

For the 250 businesses?

Mr. Declan Meally

Yes.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I am going to ask a similar question as I did not get a proper answer on it. We have the local enterprise office doing the green for micro programme, which seems very similar to the climate action voucher. One is €2,000 and the other is €2,500 but they do not actually get the money. They just apply for it and it costs €2,500. That is the funding they get from Enterprise Ireland to carry out the audit. The two seem to be exactly the same so I am not sure why there is duplication in that regard.

Regarding the curriculum for upskilling, some of it is out of date. This is more to do with apprenticeships and SOLAS but Skillnet also is looking at training and upskilling for the green economy.

Have the organisations ever all been in one room? I met the head of apprenticeships who told me that some new updated curriculums are coming forward next month in plumbing, which are badly needed, so that is good. I had some input into them because it was still the case that only gas and oil burner fitting was being covered in the curriculum; there was nothing about air to water systems. I am also not sure where that fits in with Skillnet, the education and training boards, ETBs, and the training courses being run by the special centres that have been set up in Thurles and other places. Would it be worthwhile to get the SEAI, the ETBs, the local enterprise offices, LEOs, Enterprise Ireland, EI, and perhaps officials from the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications in a room? I believe the SEAI receives funding from both Departments. Do both organisations receive funding from the Department Environment, Climate and Communications?

Mr. Declan Meally

The SEAI only receives funding from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Does Skillnet receive funding from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications at all?

Mr. Paul Healy

We receive funding from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Skillnet has not received any funding for climate related activities from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. I think enterprise received funding from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications before it was given to Skillnet. There seems to be some overlap. Have the various organisations met to figure out how not to waste resources, including time and energy? If we want to streamline it to get businesses to engage, we will have to do something like this to make it more accessible. Is that on the cards? What will be done?

I also see that there is a lot of good training in certain areas, but it is centralised. Some ETBs are doing great training. I was at the Skillnet for climate launch in the University of Limerick, UL. It was brilliant. I know Skillnet is doing its best, but siloing is happening. With the rate of change we are expecting, the demands that exist and the engagement that is needed, we do not have time for silos. We all need to be in one room ensuring we are all hitting the same targets. We all have the same target at the end of the day, which is to ensure our country and people are protected and the people have the skills to survive in climate emergency situations.

My heart goes out to small and medium enterprises that are trying to deal with fossil fuel prices. If they have time to access it, funding is available to help them move away from it. I would love to hear about that, if it is happening. I would love to hear about the targets around the European energy performance building directive, EPBD. Carbon emissions are huge. Modular building was mentioned. Are we providing skills training for that?

There is a missing piece for the SEAI around business in communities. I have attended many events about what the SEAI can do for communities, but it is not hand holding and I am afraid it will have to start holding hands. Community workers from the SEAI have given workshops around community businesses and the community going green for many years, but they only cover the big stuff. They do not take people by the hand. That is the missing piece. We now see volunteers doing it. My brother set up a voluntary organisation to do the work and filled the gap because there was no help available. As a result, he has encouraged many business to get photovoltaic, PV, energy or look at air to water heat pumps. However, he did that voluntarily. The SEAI says there are great supports but people need their hands to be held. It is simply too confusing. There are too many agencies.

The green for micro programme and the climate action voucher are a perfect example of duplication. We need proper carbon emissions targets. Engagement is great, but action is the key. Targets cannot only be for engagement. Skillnet in particular has carbon emissions targets, but they are based on the climate action plan. They are not broken down to annual targets. I would love to see annual targets for average carbon emissions. The SEAI can engage and upskill all it wants, but if it does not have a carbon emissions target, it will not be met. I would love to see Skillnet thinking about having carbon emissions targets as the central focus of its programme. I would also love to know how Skillnet is engaging with the ETBs. We need to do things more quickly and we do not have time for duplication or to be confusing small businesses. They do not have the time for that kind of engagement.

Mr. Paul Healy

Skillnet often finds it is the organisation that is joining the dots. For example, we collaborate extensively with the tertiary system, that is the university system, in bringing academic teams together with clusters from industry to co-design programmes where there is a gap in existing provision or for things like future skills. For example, the Senator joined us in UL. That example was the first microcredential programme on climate change ever run in Ireland.

Senator Róisín Garvey

That was a third level qualification.

Mr. Paul Healy

Yes, a third level qualification.

Other things have already been referred to. We fed into and supported the climate tool kit. We get into a room with SOLAS through the Department and we talk about this. We are sensitive about not duplicating areas. Here is an example. SOLAS is taking a strong lead on the National Retrofit Plan, so we are careful not to over-duplicate in that area. We have some output in retrofitting but we are not majoring in it. It is understanding-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

For example, civil or mechanical engineers who have worked in their areas for many years who want to become electricians, plumbers or qualify in some other registered trade have to go back to become an apprentice with the 16-year olds who left school without a junior certificate to get the recognition to be a tradesperson. We do not have enough tradespeople. Everyone here will agree and have already said there is a delay and we are not meeting demand. The retrofit programme is brilliant, but it is so good we cannot meet the demand. It is a good problem in some ways but it means we have to upskill people. Prior learning recognition does not seem to be working for people who have degrees and masters in mechanical engineering. They do not need to go back to the beginning. Perhaps that is a gap Skillnet could fill. They already have masters degrees and bachelors of science. Then there is the other end of the scale, people who have been working in the trades for 30 years whose prior learning is also not being recognised. They are two things I would like to see. Many people will now say they should have become tradesmen as there is great money in it and they are needed. Many lads who are academic wish they had done carpentry and other things, but it is not the way people are educated. If people are academic, they are expected to do academic studies and if not, they are expected to become a tradesperson, nurse or secretary. That is the historical bad pattern we have had.

Mr. Paul Healy

There is a huge amount of collaboration, especially between Skillnet and SOLAS on retrofitting and as regards the Skillnet training programmes.

On the climate tool kit, our brief is energy. We focus our audits on energy. We have a threshold set for energy bills that are more than €10,000. Micro-businesses work with the local enterprise offices, LEOs. They deal with the smaller businesses. We know who is dealing with what.

Senator Róisín Garvey

The LEOs are now dealing with businesses with fewer than 50 employees, not only fewer than ten.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

The green for micro programme, which has perhaps changed its name now to the voucher is for micro-businesses, whereas the SEAI focuses a little above that because we have a-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

Is the SEAI aiming for businesses with more than 50 employees because the LEOs are now dealing with businesses with up to 50 employees?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We do it on energy spend, so there may be some overlap, but we are targeting.

Senator Róisín Garvey

It is energy spend. The number of employees is irrelevant, so there is a bit of overlap.

Mr. Declan Meally

From our perspective, the focus for audits is energy but for climate it is water, waste and other items such as the sustainability of the business in a wider sense.

We have a community network. We now have more than 800 sustainable energy communities. We have mentors all around the country to hand-hold and help them out.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I have met them

Mr. Declan Meally

We run training courses for them. I know we cannot depend on volunteers. There must be an opportunity to upskill for that. That is where we saw need for a whole network of regional mentors, county mentors and local mentors. We put in that framework. We have to ensure communities are upskilled and brought along the pathway. A huge amount of time and effort is put into hand-holding. We do not just work with the communities and leave them after an event. We follow up afterwards.

Senator Róisín Garvey

My experience is from Clare local development and volunteers who have reached out to me for planning information they could not get from the SEAI to make events happen locally. Perhaps there is an SEAI mentor, but Clare local development, community workers and volunteers, like me and others, are on the ground making it happen.

Mr. Declan Meally

We can follow up and send the links to the local mentors. I will make sure we have that.

Deputy David Stanton

I will be brief. I will turn to the safety side of things, which I am interested in. The Teagasc website says PV installers need to be on the SEAI register of installers or on the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine approved list if targeted agriculture modernisation schemes, TAMS, grants are to be issued. Does the SEAI have a formal arrangement with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to enable it to access the SEAI list and use it as part of its grant approval process?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We work closely with the Department and the list is publicly available.

Deputy David Stanton

Yes, but the question is whether there is a formal arrangement between the SEAI and the Department? This is serious stuff.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

There is no formal arrangement between the SEAI and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Deputy David Stanton

Does the SEAI have any involvement in the TAMS grant approval process?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

No.

Deputy David Stanton

That is interesting. I wonder why the Department mentions the SEAI list then.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

As I understand, it uses our list for eligibility of installers. It is trying not to replicate a register that has already been done nationally.

Deputy David Stanton

It seems to have its own register also, which-----

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Deputy Stanton mentioned that earlier. I am not aware of this.

Deputy David Stanton

It seems to have two, in the same way as the SEAI - one for companies and one for installers. The one for installers is not accessible on its website. I cannot find it anyway. The SEAI's one is. I wonder whether it uses the SEAI's register and whether there a formal arrangement.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

There is no formal arrangement but we engage with it extensively. Solar PV was always within TAMS but it was made more prominent. We engaged extensively about some of the areas where we were seeing issues and how we had approached the supply chain.

Deputy David Stanton

There is a difference between installing solar PV in domestic settings and houses with timber, tiles and slate, and installing it in industrial and agricultural buildings where there is steel, water, iron and other electricity conductors. Stray electricity can leak. Are there different specifications for domestic versus industrial and agricultural? I am familiar with technical specification S198, which is a minimum specification for the installation of solar PV systems used by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

The main consideration when addressing an industrial building is the mounting system for the solar PV. The mounting system must be compatible with the type of roof and needs to provide the level of anchoring required for wind loading and passive loads. There are Eurocodes. The code of practice we produced for domestic has been superseded by a national standard. There is no national standard in our code of practice for non-domestic buildings. They require calculations in line with Eurocodes to be conducted as part of the design process.

Deputy David Stanton

I have been told that some of these safety codes and specifications are not at the standard they should be and need to be upgraded. Does the SEAI have any plan to upgrade them?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

We work with the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and our colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to target where standards are needed. This is why we have a national standard for domestic buildings. There are no plans with regard to solar PV installation in non-domestic buildings. We engage with the NSAI extensively on IS 10101:2020, which is what was called the wiring rules. We looked at where there were gaps in this. Again this has to be harmonised at European level. We have been bringing in a lot of harmonised standards throughout Europe. There are some gaps in standards and some reliance on our code of practice, which is not a formal standard.

Deputy David Stanton

It is quite concerning, when we are dealing with electricity in particular, that some of the standards may not be where they should be. We are dealing with safety issues.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

I would say it is in the non-electricity sector where there may be a gap. With regard to electrical standards there are comprehensive wiring rules. Registered electoral contractors are very familiar with them. It relates to some standards for roofing works and mechanical fixings.

Deputy David Stanton

I know this is very technical, but I ask Dr. Sharkey to bear with me because it is quite important. I am aware of a number of cases where shoddy workmanship was done by people who may not have been on the register. Solar installation is expanding throughout the country. We really need to be cognisant of this and we need to clamp down on it. The earthing of domestic facilities, for instance, is important. If an electrician goes into a non-domestic building is it incumbent on him or her to check the situation prior to doing any work to make sure everything else is okay? If a solar PV array is being put up on a building and the work done already is not up to spec, if an electrician then adds their work it could compromise what they do.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

The deputy is correct that people need to look at items such as the existing main electrical protection and earthing and raise any issues. Where there are gaps or issues it would be something for Safe Electric to comment on.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Dr. Sharkey.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

My question is for the SEAI. Mr. Meally spoke about the difficulty of building on carbon savings year after year. It is great to go into a building and change the lights, put up curtains and look at the ventilation to get a reduction but what is done next? We all understand it is a difficulty. The nub of my question is the ability of the SEAI to influence public policy. When electricity charges were very markedly increased this year one of the sectors most impacted was refrigeration. Shops suddenly found their bills were horrendous. A potential way out was to invest in new refrigeration equipment but then there is the difficulty of how that will be supported financially. It is a very difficult question. The SEAI is assisting with grant funding for this.

My question is on how much influence the SEAI brings to bear on public policy. When we widen it out into the development of large-scale renewables, which is getting to be a real issue, we have planning issues for onshore wind and we may well have planning issues for offshore wind. An area we could look at that, which would be far easier, is solar development. Deputy Stanton has spoken about the technicalities of domestic solar. Large-scale solar farms will have to be provided in Ireland. We have major issues with them already. In County Waterford, a large 500-acre project is going through an An Bord Pleanála review. Could the witnesses from the SEAI speak about a community rate or community dividend for solar farms? If people in an area have to look at a solar farm then at least if, like wind, they are getting something from it perhaps they can put up with it? Perhaps communities should be brought in and provided with equity in these projects. This would be the most sustainable and equitable way to do it. How is the SEAI influencing public and government policy to try to recognise the difficulties we have? As we try to deliver more and more climate change these issues will come to the fore.

Mr. Declan Meally

We are the sustainable energy authority and we feed the information we get into the Department which decides the policy through the Minister and the Government and the setting of that policy. We provide data from our programmes and information, and feedback on the grants, to see how things are working and make sure it is fed back into the policy.

We have to scale up renewables. We have been very successful with our renewable electricity. We are at 40%, on average, for renewable electricity. Pretty much all of this is onshore. It has come about in the past year or two that there has been a community benefit fund in the renewable auctions. We fed into this and we are part of the oversight of community benefits. When a wind farm or a solar farm generates electricity a portion of it is to be fed back to the local community. This is part and part of the policy. Communities are engaged at a very early stage in terms of understanding what is happening. Communities can also develop their own farms. We provide assistance for this in the context of community renewable plans. Through the community benefit fund, there is an opportunity to benefit for people within a particular radius of the installations. Significant funds are given back to communities over several years. This could be used for social and amenity purposes, and for environmental opportunities, such as upgrading homes, schools or businesses and matched with grant funding. All of this is part of the ongoing policy debate and part of the opportunities for communities as projects are developed. We feed into this on a regular basis. We will be part of the oversight of this community benefit fund once the funds start flowing.

More recently, we have provided what is not quite a one-stop shop but, rather, an information portal for planning projects.

It helps identify the steps and stages renewable projects have to go through. We provide that through the website and have opened up the portal so that people in communities and areas can see the projects that are happening and understand the opportunities and where they need to go if developing their own projects. We are constantly feeding into that and into the policy piece. I hope that answers the Deputy's questions.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Not to disagree with Mr. Meally but the community development fund is not at all adequate. I will give an example. A large offshore wind farm project of the south coast of Ireland, specifically off the coast of my own county, is being considered at the moment. The investment threshold for that project is probably over €1 billion. The community dividend is payable over 15 years and is somewhere between €14 million and €18 million. The licence period of the farm is 25 years, which means there will be no payment for the other eight. There will be no community dividend income for that period. I understand from speaking to people that they do not set the tariff on community dividend. Rather, it is set by Government. This comes back to my original question. How can the SEAI be seen to influence Government policy and raise these issues? To be fair, €18 million over 15 years is not a substantial amount of money for an affected community of 15,000 to 20,000 people.

Mr. Declan Meally

As the Deputy has said, the level of funding is set by Government. That will be reviewed but it is set for the auctions and what is there. I take the Deputy's point. We will look into the opportunities there. There will be constant review with Government of the community development fund and how it evolves and develops over time. I take that point on board.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

That would be helpful.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will go back to the issue of building momentum. Companies are moving towards being what might be called platinum companies and making great claims about their net-zero status, their trends towards such status or the progress they will make by given dates. That is great to see. Does the SEAI have a role in certifying such claims? On the corollary of that, would the authority consider establishing bronze, silver, gold and platinum categories, creating the concept that there are beacon companies that are forging ahead and that, if a company is only in the bronze category, it should really get the finger out? This might lead to colleagues in the sector regarding a company as not being up to speed, which might impact on tendering for business. Is that a way in which we could build momentum? Is it beyond the capacity of an organisation like the SEAI to consider? Having heard from Enterprise Ireland and the local enterprise offices when they came before the committee, it seems everyone is sitting there with their offering and saying they do everything they can with everyone who comes to them but that, unfortunately, many companies do not. That is the story. There is a wall here that we have to break through. Perhaps that sort of system would be progressive.

The witnesses may not be in a position to comment but it also strikes me that one organisation being funded by the Department of Education, another by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and another by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment means that stuff may fall between stools or not be a priority for a Department. For example, Skillnet might be vulnerable to a change in priority towards higher education or some other area. Since all the organisations interface with enterprise, would there be merit in creating a carbon neutrality and circular economy compact within the State agencies and, in time, trying to develop it with the sectors? Perhaps there already is such a compact. Something like that needs to be thought about more seriously. There is a danger that we could sleepwalk into a situation with everyone saying there are great things out there but that, unfortunately, people are too busy, do not have the time and so on. As has been said, you can save 30% for nothing so it is a bit of a no-brainer for people to engage. This committee wants to move the agenda on a little bit rather than just hearing what the barriers are. As the best exam questions always end, discuss.

Mr. Paul Healy

I will go first, if that is okay. On the Deputy's question on gold and platinum standard companies and what the benchmark or threshold is, there is very interesting work going on in the sustainable enterprise skillnet. There are 400 companies within this network that have a large carbon footprint. It would be good to hear Mr. Stockil's insight into the calibre of engagement with those companies and the related outputs. He is working with these large service sector companies across the biopharmaceutical and telecommunications sectors and others. Mr. Stockil might particularly address the Deputy's question as to standards and, if one was to put one's hand on what "really good" looks like in a company, what that would like in terms of a charter or action plan. Will he please comment on that?

Mr Ken Stockil

On the Deputy's point, I will first give some background on the water stewardship programme the sustainable enterprise skillnet has developed and delivered over recent years in collaboration with Uisce Éireann. The genesis of this programme lies in one of the compact-type initiatives the Deputy has referred to, Water Stewardship Ireland. It was originally funded by the Environmental Protection Agency to establish a network of large water users across Ireland to look at the issue of water. It is a valuable resource. It is sometimes underestimated in our national psyche but, internationally, it is seen as a very important part of this dialogue. People say that, if climate change is a shark, water is its teeth. Many of these organisations, more than 300, came together to form a collaborative platform to look at that challenge. Since then, with the support of Skillnet Ireland and Uisce Éireann, a systemised programme to upskill and develop action plans for the individual organisations was brought to fruition. That was launched three years ago. The committee has details of the levels of engagement with that programme but, to round out the point, a number of those organisations, having started with this catalyst programme to understand the challenges and come up with specific actions plans that can be audited and verified, subsequently went to get certified platinum under international standards such as the Alliance for Water Stewardship global standard. They have achieved positions in the top six or seven globally with regard to that challenge. That has given us an insight into what is required here.

On the broader sustainability challenge, we have to be cognisant that the corporate sustainability reporting directive, CSRD, is now emerging as a significant driver for many large business and that, over the coming years, that will trickle down to the small to medium-sized businesses that support those larger organisations or which are in their supply chains. We are seeing that framework being very helpful in that dialogue with companies in that it breaks down the environmental and social pillars into accessible blocks and allows companies to develop tangible action plans. Our sustainability leaders programme under the climate ready academy is specifically anchored in that narrative. It aligns with the UN global compact and the undertakings companies are asked to sign up to under that compact but distils it down to the local context. It looks at initiatives like Origin Green and the ecosystem of supports in Ireland and translates that global compact into a national compact so that companies can sign up to a sustainability leaders programme, which is now delivered in collaboration with Enterprise Ireland and the IDA to their client bases. That is exactly the type of collective action required here. It has to be about big-ticket initiatives and collaborative and collective action because the challenge is immense. Decarbonisation is a significant portion of that but there are other significant complexities and portions of that dialogue that need to happen with companies over the coming years.

That is what we have attempted to do on that front for both water and broader sustainability.

Senator Róisín Garvey

I will turn it around. I am wondering how we can help, what else needs to be done and what more supports the representatives need. They have huge challenges. In some ways, everybody in every business wants to go green for lots of different reasons. It is the witnesses' job to make it happen and to make sure the skills are there. I know there are targets for engagement but the carbon emissions targets have to be front and centre of everything everybody is doing right now if we are to be serious about future-proofing. As was famously said, if it is not climate proof it is not future-proof. Businesses want to play their part, as does every individual.

When the Skillnet people are working further, would it be good to have climate carbon targets so when they are engaging with businesses their engagement is not just around getting the skills? If it was linked to carbon targets, it might encourage businesses to upskill because that is what it is all about now. It is about carbon reduction.

The SEAI has a monumental task. It has been at this a long time but its role has blown up, especially with all the funding there now, which is luckily being given through the Government, and grants to do all these things. It is the same with Skillnet. One of the things I see with deep retrofits - I do not know whether this is true for businesses but I do not think it is - is that the aim has to be a B2 energy rating. Even if it is F, it has to go from F to B2. Lots of people ask me whether they could get to D or C first, and whether the SEAI could give them funding for that. A couple of things, such as roof insulation, are at a high percentage but many of them are at a lower percentage of 30% to 50%. It is a big jump for a lot of people. We are asking them to do a lot in a small amount of time. In some ways, they want to do it maybe more than the State agencies that have been set up to do it. Asking people to go from an F to a B2 seems a lot. It is only because the SEAI is here that I am asking this. It has been raised with me as well.

As somebody who was a single mum and did not have a lot of money for a long time, I always wanted to have a lovely A1 or B2 energy-rated house but it was just not an option. We do social housing and all that, although I did not have a social house, but jumping up to a B2 as a first aim, starting from a very low base, makes it more difficult. Would the SEAI bring more people on board if it were phased? It does not want them to stay at D or C or whatever it is, but could it be phased so that people would get money to bring them to a D first and there would then be a grant to get up to a B or C? We need to bring everybody with us. For every business and individual, what we have to do is huge. We do not want wars to dictate the price of businesses being able to stay open or closed. We need to be independent. We need them to go green energy wise for purely economic as well as climate reasons. If we can link carbon emissions to everything we do, that would be very important.

It is great that both organisations said they were engaging with SOLAS. That is very good. I am glad to hear there is not as much duplication as I feared. However, I am surprised it has taken us more than three years for, finally, a couple of the SOLAS programmes to be updated. If everybody had input, I am surprised it took three years, with all the great people involved in inputting with SOLAS. It is to be hoped that is happening for all the different skills needed and not just a few that are apparently happening this December.

I am getting some updates on the plumbing programme and possibly the carpentry programme. Somebody has to work on prior learning recognition and the shortcuts for people who already have degrees and masters. I do not know if the organisations are involved in any of that, but it will help them. If skilled workers are needed to do the work for the SEAI, the educational programmes are needed for people who want to have the skills.

Mr. Declan Meally

I will address what the Senator said about the B2 energy rating. That is the level that is set, for example, for the one-stop shop, but there is also the individual measure homeowner grant. People can go step by step, or measure by measure, in deciding on what they can afford over time. That is still available under the home energy grants.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Will the SEAI let people know that? Many people have said to me that they cannot afford to do that deep retrofit and sorry, but they are out.

Mr. Declan Meally

We have the fully funded scheme, which is the warmer homes scheme, and the one-stop shop but there are also home energy grants, where people can go step by step.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Should we promote that on national television and places like that? This is so people do not think they have to borrow €100,000 to go for a deep retrofit and there is no other choice.

Mr. Declan Meally

We show on the website that there are three strands to make sure there are opportunities. There is consideration even at European level. The Senator talked about the performance of buildings but a building passport is being looked at so that progress can be followed. That is the way it is evolving and developing. It is a big step to get to B2 but through the one-stop shops going in once to a home rather than doing several different steps-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

I understand all that.

Mr. Declan Meally

-----is much more economical. However, there are two options in that regard.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

On the business side, for non-domestic buildings there are no thresholds that need to be met for funding. One measure can be done, such as solar PV, which is very popular-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

You can just change your fridge, or lightbulbs or whatever.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

You can change your refrigeration or you can do multiple measures, such as a heat pump and a so-called deep retrofit.

Senator Róisín Garvey

If people are leasing a building, the building owner does not care about the bills for the business. Lots of small businesses are doing that now. Is any work being done on engaging landlords to show them that it is worth their while financially to increase the value of the building?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

It is something the Department is now looking at very closely.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Okay. That is a work in progress.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

That is the so-called split incentive, which is what we call it technically. There are solutions to that. There are regulatory solutions, including green leases and so on, that can be promoted.

Senator Róisín Garvey

When are they due to come out? I do not think people know about green leases and so on either.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

At present, it is supports for retrofits in the main. Some big commercial landlords are really getting this because they have a significant stranded asset risk if they cannot attract blue-chip tenants who will require A-rated buildings.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Yes. What about smaller businesses and smaller landlords?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Smaller businesses will either have to engage their landlords or, in many cases, will do single measures that have paybacks within the term of the lease. Typically that is lighting, solar, heating controls-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

I know that. I am saying that many small businesses are leasing buildings from landlords and those landlords are saying they do not care and to "tough up". Are we doing anything about that?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

The Department is looking at regulations where that will-----

Senator Róisín Garvey

You think they are.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

Yes.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Has Dr. Sharkey any timeline on that?

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

I do not.

Senator Róisín Garvey

Okay. Will Dr. Sharkey come back to me on that? I would love to know more about that and whether the Department is actually doing it. I will ask the Department.

Dr. Fergus Sharkey

I can come back on what the policy options are and what is being done internationally if the Senator wishes.

Senator Róisín Garvey

That would be great. Thank you.

Mr. Paul Healy

To come back to the Senator's point, it is about targets and impacts and measuring those impacts. Mr. Stockil talked about this. The big scheme we stood up is the climate-ready academy. The programmes and awards made through that are based on certification that things happened in the company, including these charters and action plans being implemented. It is called the sustainability pass for those very reasons and that there is an evidence base supporting the person who has graduated and can collaborate.

However, we take the Senator's wider point. There may be something for us to consider in our wider upskilling offering in climate being linked to targets. We will certainly take that online.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our consideration of this matter. I thank the representatives for assisting the committee in this important matter. I propose we go into private session to consider other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee went into private session at 11.38 a.m. and adjourned at 11.57 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 November 2023.