Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023

Sustainable Development Goals: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Senator Garret Ahearn and Deputy Matt Shanahan.

This meeting will discuss the sustainable development goals, SDGs, which are the blueprint for a better and more sustainable future for all of us. The aim is to address the global challenges we face, including those related to poverty, inequality, climate change, environmental degradation, peace and justice. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment currently leads on several SDG targets. I am pleased we have the opportunity to consider these and related matters further with officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I welcome from the Department, Dr. Dermot Coates, chief economist, economic and tax policy unit, and Mr. Joseph Cummins, principal, climate action and energy policy unit. Joining us online are Mr. Osama Noujoum, assistant principal, data and evaluation unit, and Ms Federica De Blasio, administrative officer, data and evaluation unit.

Before we start, I will explain parliamentary privilege to the witnesses. There are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.

Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Dr. Coates to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I wish the Cathaoirleach and members a good morning. I am chief economist with the Department and am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Joseph Cummins, Ms Federica De Blasio and Mr. Osama Noujoum. We are pleased to be here to speak to the members of the committee with regard to the Department's progress in developing and implementing the sustainable development goals that fall under the aegis of this Department. The Department is actively engaged in a whole-of-government approach towards achieving the SDGs. The Department contributed to drafting the recent national implementation plan for sustainable development goals from 2022 to 2024. It did so through its membership of the SDG senior officials group and the relevant interdepartmental working group and through bilateral contacts with the Department of the Environment, Climate Action and Communications. Specifically, this Department holds a lead role for several of the targets, including under goal 8 which relates to decent work and economic growth; goal 9, industry, innovation and infrastructure; goal 10, reducing inequality; goal 12, responsible consumption and production and finally goal 17, partnership for the goals. The Department is undertaking extensive work to mainstream these targets into its overall approach and our statement of strategy was developed in the context of its role in contributing to the SDGs, in particular goal 4 of that strategy, which covers deepening and extending Ireland's global business and trade environment in a fair and sustainable manner and commits us to developing Ireland's global business and trade in a fair and sustainable manner that is supportive of high labour standards and to growing the all-island economy. In addition, the recent White Paper on enterprise was adopted last year and this sets out Ireland's policy for the medium to long term with a view to realising a vision of a resilient, inclusive and sustainable enterprise growth model for Ireland into the future. The paper notes and references the importance of embedding the SDGs into enterprise policy going forward, supporting firms to apply their creativity and innovation to solving sustainable development challenges. This included highlighting the importance of resource circularity, business corporate sustainability, best practice and enabling enterprises based in Ireland to compete on quality, reliability, value added and customer service. The paper also underscores the importance of skills and workforce development policies that aim to activate groups currently underrepresented or underemployed in the labour market, including on pay, flexible working and reducing barriers to workforce participation.

In the aftermath of Covid-19, we have seen a significant and rapid recovery in Ireland's labour market. Against this backdrop and reflecting on some of the lessons learned during the pandemic era, the Department has led on a range of initiatives that will improve working conditions in Ireland over time. These include the Sick Leave Act 2022 which will ensure for the first time that all qualifying employees will have entitlement to employer-paid sick leave. This Act commenced at the start of this year. In addition, we have the Payment of Wages (Amendment) (Tips and Gratuities) Act 2022, which came into effect on 1 December giving employees legal rights to protection of workplace tips; the Redundancy Payments (Amendment) Act 2022 was commenced in April last year and ensures that employees made redundant during Covid-19 would receive the same total payment as if they had not been laid off during a pandemic. To bring Ireland closer in line with the European average, a new public holiday was introduced from January 2022 and going forward that will fall on the first Monday of February.

I will mention a couple of further issues. The report of the high level review group on collective bargaining established under the auspices of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, was published in 2022 and its recommendations are currently being considered. The Low Pay Commission's recommendations to move to a living wage were announced in November 2022. The national living wage will be set at 60% of our median wages and will be introduced over a four-year period. It will be in place by 2026. The right to request remote working Bill has been integrated into the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2023. This has been approved by the Dáil and its commencement is forthcoming. Regulations to transpose transparent and particular working conditions into Irish law are being finalised. In addition, the national remote work strategy was launched in January 2021 to maximise the benefits that remote working can bring. As a result of Government policy in supporting enterprise and full employment, we have seen strong growth in employment over recent years. By the end of 2021, employment figures were above pre-pandemic levels, which exceeded the target set out in the economic recovery plan in July 2021. The number of people in employment as at September is just over 2.6 million and the seasonally-adjusted monthly unemployment rate is now just under 5%. The rate for those aged 24 years and younger is now about 12.5%, which is broadly in line with the targets set out under the pathways to work strategy in 2021. The Department actively collaborates with other Departments in achieving the SDGs through its active participation in the various working groups and in the senior officials group, SOG. Representatives of the Department have attended the various national stakeholder fora that are regularly held. The Department also contributed to the drafting of the 2023 voluntary national review, which was presented to the UN high level political forum in July.

In addition, the Department has taken steps to promote awareness of the SDGs internally, in order that we can mainstream and embed that in the work of the Department. For example, the Department participated in the SDG week 2023. This was done through a lunch and learn webinar for all employees. Regular updates are circulated through internal staff social media accounts.

Finally I thank committee members for listening to these opening remarks and we look forward to addressing any questions they may have.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the witnesses. As I am due to speak in the Chamber, if I leave the meeting it is not through any lack of interest on my part, it is due to a requirement to be elsewhere. My question relates to progress on target 8.2, which is to “Achieve higher levels of economic productivity through diversification, technological upgrading and innovation, including through a focus on high value added and labour-intensive sectors”. This is one of the most important targets, particularly in the context of our somewhat volatile corporation tax receipts. Will Dr. Coates explain how expanded exporting among our domestic SMEs fits into target 8.2? The White Paper shows a focus on strengthening the Irish-owned export sector, particularly from the existing large cohort of non-exporting SMEs. The White Paper indicates that we should focus on expanding exporting among this cohort as it will help with the target, because it helps with economic diversification. Will Dr. Coates provide an update in that regard?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I thank the Deputy. The White Paper set out a target for increasing the number of SMEs that will export. This has been cross-referenced by the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council in previous reports, whereby accessing labour trading markets outside Ireland helps to diversify and strengthen a business and make it more sustainable going forward. It also helps to embed a business in supply chains more globally, which can help with transfer of such things as learning and management skills. That is reflected in productivity statistics for businesses as well. It is important to bear in mind that the SME sector is not a singular monolithic bloc. Some firms trade locally, that is their focus. The objective of the Department is to identify those firms that could benefit from accessing international markets. That is the support given by local enterprise offices, LEOs, and Enterprise Ireland. It is important that we recognise that the global trading environment has changed and we now see global value chains. This is where we need to continue to develop our thinking. The White Paper referenced this. The Department has done quite a lot of work on this in conjunction with the European Commission and OECD colleagues in order that we understand the prism through which businesses work in a modern, global trading environment, not simply to focus on our standard conception of what foreign trade might mean.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

There is a large cohort of non-exporting SMEs and as Dr. Coates rightly points out, many of them are not exporting because they do not want to, they serve a local market. In terms of the development work being done to identify those that are not currently exporting but that are not part of that not-exporting and will-not-be-exporting cohort, are there targets? Targets are set in the White Paper but are specific targets set for identification of these businesses and how they can be supported to become exporters?

Dr. Dermot Coates

Typically, Enterprise Ireland, EI, colleagues take the lead role in that space in identifying the firms that have export potential and providing them with advice in terms of upskilling, identifying markets and helping to break into markets. EI has a great deal of experience in identifying different markets in different countries and where firms could be a good fit, and helping to build that bridge for them.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I am talking about the role of the Department. EI is doing what it does and doing it well but is the Department keeping an eye on this? Is this being tracked by the Department? Does the Department get updates annually, weekly or monthly? How is that working? It is a key component of the White Paper.

Dr. Dermot Coates

There are a number of strands. The Department has an EI liaison unit, which regularly monitors and interacts with EI management and tracks progress there. The Department conducts an annual business survey of economic impact, which surveys all EI firms to identify expansion in their international trade. That is granular, firm-by-firm-level data to enable us to identify where progress is being made. Also, in the White Paper, there is a detailed implementation plan mapping against all of the targets, where there will be annual reporting to track the target in the White Paper in terms of overall uplift.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Target 8.8 is to "protect labour rights and promote safe and secure working environments for all workers, including migrant workers, in particular women migrants, and those in precarious employment." Will Dr. Coates provide an update on the level the WRC inspectorate will stand at from January 2024? I know additional funding for inspectors was provided in the budget but how will it leave the numbers when retirements are taken into consideration?

On that issue of protecting workers, does the Department have a view of recent reports that a worker was dismissed for criticising the actions of the Israeli state in Palestine? Does it think the Unfair Dismissals Act might need to be strengthened? In my opinion, having some experience in this area, this was a clear-cut case of unfair dismissal. Clearly that is a matter for others to adjudicate on. There is a concern that has been expressed to me by trade unionists and other campaign groups about workers being censured for expressing views online and outside of their workplace - views which are not Islamophobic, anti-Semitic or offensive in any way. They are finding themselves, in the case of one worker at least, dismissed, and in some cases censured or pressured. Is there a need to strengthen the Unfair Dismissals Act to encompass that? I have brought this to the attention of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I feel passionately about it because people should be free to express views that are not Islamophobic, anti-Semitic or offensive, but are merely political views. These are views shared, I imagine, by the vast majority of people; maybe that is a value judgment I am placing on it. Is there a need in the current climate to look at the Act and ensure it can encompass protections for those workers?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I am not entirely au fait with the details of the case the Deputy is referring to, other than some of the media reporting. There are protections in place and intended to be in place for workers in such scenarios, particularly concerning what are intended or presented as non-offensive remarks. The mechanisms of the State through the WRC are open to the individual in that case. I am not sure what more I could say on that.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

It is more about the generality, not specifically one case, although one case was reported in the media. We know there are cases separate from that case and possibly separate from what is happening in Gaza right now. In general terms, does Dr. Coates think the Unfair Dismissals Act is sufficiently robust to provide protection for workers who wish to express a view? We have spoken about how the international trading and export world is changing rapidly. The world of communications is also changing rapidly. It has gone from expressing a view in a social setting to putting something on social media, which has elevated things. Is the Act robust enough to deal with these cases or would it benefit from a review, refresh and update?

Dr. Dermot Coates

It is the intent and goal behind the Act and various State mechanisms to protect employees in those cases. I entirely accept the point that the changing role of social media has been transformative in this space. That underlying goal and intent of the legislation should remain in place in order that protection is extended. If in this case or in general there are questions over whether it continues to function against that backdrop, the Department and Minister will take that on board and review.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

On the number of inspectors, how will we stand in January 2024, when we take into account retirements and new hires? I know there was money in the budget but how will that leave us in terms of numbers of inspectors?

Dr. Dermot Coates

Across all State agencies and not just in our Department, additional funding and resourcing has been provided over successive years to try to upgrade, expand and meet the functions that have fallen to various agencies. That is difficult against the backdrop the Deputy referred to of an increasing level or retirements and a tight labour market, which causes recruitment difficulties for both public and private sector firms. I do not have the exact numbers for January to hand. I apologise but we will share them with the clerk afterwards, once I get-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Excellent. Specifically, I want to know how many there will be on 1 January. One of the few things certain in public sector jobs is that, on the day a person starts, they know the day they will finish. There is nothing more certain than a retirement day. Can we get a picture of what retirements will look like for 2024? That is not to name any individual; it is a function of their age, not their name or grade. I am anxious to get a picture of what that will look like. The clerk will circulate it to the committee.

Target 17.10 refers to the promotion of a "universal, rules-based, open, non-discriminatory and equitable multilateral trading system under the WTO including through the concluding of negotiations [under the] Doha Development Agenda". I ask specifically about the impact of the US Inflation Reduction Act. What does it mean for the future of EU state aid rules? Protectionist elements in the form of local content requirements have been labelled a "frontal attack on the WTO" and its international trade order. How does this fit into target 17.10, which alludes to the promotion of "a universal, rules-based, open, non-discriminatory... multilateral trading system"? What should be our response and that of the EU more broadly? I am not saying I would use those words but it has been described as a full-frontal attack. People in the States may have a different view of it.

Dr. Dermot Coates

It is important to take this in the broader context, which the Competitiveness Council will refer to in September, of the changing geopolitical backdrop. We have become accustomed to a stable, rules-based trading environment where everybody knew the rules, but there is a risk that ground is shifting under our feet. We see that not only in the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, but also to an extent in the mandate around open strategic autonomy in the EU. That change would suggest a move to a more interventionist role for the state in supporting firms. We see that in IPKeys and other initiatives. For a small, open trading economy like Ireland, the level playing field scenario is most important for us to continue to compete openly on international markets for consumers and through our supply chains. The Department, the council and others continue to monitor and advocate on behalf of maintaining that level playing field.

It is worth bearing in mind we are working our way through both the green and digital transitions. It will to some extent require a more assertive role for the State, not just here but across the world, to push that forward. That is temporary; it is a transition and not a permanent reset. It is important to keep our eye on what we want to maintain and on the value of free trade in a rules-based, common, well-understood system. I am not sure that entirely answers the question.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

It does. It is a tricky area. There have to be rules but we have to respect each state’s right to control what happens within its own borders as well.

I want to speak briefly on the sectoral employment order, SEO.

The construction SEO was issued in 2021 and enacted in 2022 but we also know the challenge was withdrawn by the security industry once the minimum wage increase was announced. It is not going to go to court for the sake of 20 cent. It is greed. Nothing else motivates employers to go down to the courts. I wonder about the view of the Department. Why are these SEOs not being robustly assembled, enough to withstand these challenges? As sure as night follows day, every announcement will necessitate a trip to the courts. It is deeply frustrating for those workers who are waiting on the SEOs. It is generally a small number of employers. Obviously, the majority are going to be at the table to negotiate. It is just a small number of employers who are being allowed to hold this up for a large number of workers.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I am not sure I follow. When the Deputy says "robustly assembled", she is referring to them being put together in such a way as to-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I refer to the actual orders themselves. It seems as if every SEO necessitates a trip to the courts. Is the Department looking at any way to prevent that or to minimise that happening?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I cannot honestly say I am aware of anything under way to try to prevent that but, as the Deputy mentioned, where these SEOs are negotiated, and negotiated in good faith, I am not sure we can counterbalance someone else's right to go to the court to seek an opinion if that is what they see. It is the case that most employers are happy to follow that particular process-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

They are but that is the problem. It is only a small number of employers who are delaying it for everybody else.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I understand.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I refer to the cynical way the challenge to the security SEO was dropped, almost in the same moment as the recommendations came out from the Low Pay Commission. You could clearly see the difference of 20 cent. It is not going to go to court for the sake of 20 cent. It should be on the Department's radar to strength the SEOs to limit that challenge. We cannot take away a person's right to take a challenge but, equally, we are talking about a small number of employers holding a large number of workers to ransom. It is deeply unfair. I know I am over my time.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I take the Deputy's point on that and it is certainly a message we will take back to our colleagues and flag it.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming before the committee and for their presentation. I wore the sustainable development goals badge this morning. Many people ask me what it is when they see it. I do not know whether the witnesses agree with me but I think it is important to have awareness of the goals and what they are and that this would be spread across industry, society, business and so forth. To what extent do the witnesses think people are aware of the goals and what they are? I refer to employers, employees, people with whom we work, and people who are involved here in the presentation in actually promoting and developing the goals. Has any work been done on that? Do people know about these goals?

Dr. Dermot Coates

The lead Department is the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications but in our own case, the Department certainly tries to use the various channels available to it to promote awareness of sustainable development goals. Our own statement of strategy was referenced in the White Paper but it would also be flagged on the agenda for things such as the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, or through the State agencies and how they deal with firms to try to mainstream awareness of what these are and what our role here is. On a more specific point, we even try to raise awareness among our own officials because as people do their day-to-day work they are aware we have commitments here to move towards decent work, etc. The Department has made quite a lot of efforts in that space, and I referred to that in the opening statement, just to boost awareness. People have to be cognisant of what these goals are. Certainly, over the course of my career since I returned to the Civil Service in the last five years or so, I must admit I heard SDGs and wondered what they were exactly. A lot of work has been put in across a number of Departments just on that general level of awareness-raising and educating staff.

Deputy David Stanton

I thank Dr. Coates for that. I agree with him that it is hugely important that people are aware of this. I looked at the Department website and this does not seem to be mentioned on the opening page at all, in any shape or form. There is nothing I can see. Maybe it is hidden and if I dig deep down into something it is probably there. I put it to Dr. Coates that it is really important to highlight the goals-----

Dr. Dermot Coates

Yes.

Deputy David Stanton

-----across the whole Department and the agencies that are under the aegis of the Department as well and in the employer and employee organisations with which we deal through the Department. If people do not know about them, how can they be expected to meet them? That is the first question.

Colleagues will have different areas on which to zero in. I want to zero in on two areas. First, on target 8.5 which aims to achieve full and productive employment and decent work for all men and women, including for young people and persons with disabilities. I want to talk about the persons with disabilities bit because I am particularly interested in this. Will Dr. Coates expand on this and tell us what has been done by the Department to achieve target 8.5, in particular in respect of people with disabilities? I am cognisant of the reasonable accommodation fund, the disability awareness support and the wage subsidy schemes, and the job interpreter and the workplace equipment adaptation grants and so on. Will he talk us through that a bit?

For instance, one thing came to my attention recently and it was quite curious. If somebody has a severe disability but they are able to work, they need personal assistant, PA, support in order to work. I am not sure whether the Department is actually involved in this but I put it to Dr. Coates that without PA support in the workplace, some people with disabilities, who are quite capable, will not be able to perform and function to the best of their abilities.

A further question linked to that is in the workplace and is about changing places and toilet facilities. This is something of which the witnesses may not be aware but which is very important for people with severe disabilities. Those are two issues that spring to mind straight away that are essential for somebody with severe disabilities who needs to be able to work, pay taxes, and take their place in society. Are they part of what we are talking about here in target 8.5? Will Dr. Coates expand a bit more on what the Department is doing for people in disabilities in particular?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I thank the Deputy. As it falls for this Department, the objective in target 8.5 being promoting decent work and achieving full and productive employment, it has long been recognised that there is a gap in our performance versus other countries when it comes to employment for people with disabilities. Specifically, activation and employment support policy rests with the Department of Social Protection but our Department participates in that work through the labour market advisory committee and that particular issue was made a key deliverable under the Pathways to Work strategy, which was published in 2021, to boost the employment rate. For our own Department, quite a lot of focus has been placed in recent months on understanding the dynamics of why that gap exists. We have done quite a bit of work with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, and we will be forthcoming with this probably in the new year.

Thinking of the cohort of people to whom we should refer as jobseekers with a disability as they are jobseekers, we need to understand what the barriers are for these jobseekers. Using the detailed labour force survey data, we can segment to the extent to be able to say that some people have a certain suite of conditions that they are not going to be able to work but for the people who could and want to work, we can see what needs to be done in that space specifically. When we think about the employment rate for people with a disability, sometimes you hear of a figure of approximately 30% or so, but that is not calculating the employment rate in the way we would for the generality of the population. The key issue for the generality of the population is that about two thirds of people are active in the labour market whether they are employed or unemployed and that ratio is inverted for people with a disability. Approximately two thirds of those persons, unfortunately, are classified as economically inactive and not categorised as employed or unemployed.

Therefore, it is how we focus on the inactive cohort, because to some extent my suspicion would be, and my experience in the past as well, is that people perceive there would not be work out there for them even if they went looking for the work. It is not that they are even in the labour market; it is how to bring them into the labour market first, and then provide all the supports. It is worth stating that if we look at the supports Ireland provides through Intreo, the public employment service, the supports stand up quite well compared with other advanced European economies in providing a wage subsidy and personal readers.

We provide infrastructural grants for employers who need to make structural changes to facilitate people. There is that range of supports there but I suggest take-up is not as high as it should be. It remains a key area of focus for this Department and the Department of Social Protection.

I will make one more point in addition. When we are talking about having a labour market that is running at full capacity, it is always incumbent on us to look at the totality of people who are available to work and provide them with the supports. We should not be overlooking them and looking for people abroad or whatever the case may be but should remain cognisant that there are cohorts of people who may well feel poorly served by the labour market, in good times and bad.

Deputy David Stanton

The committee has done some work on this issue. We have met people with disabilities. I have met people with disabilities myself who tell me they are disabled because the supports are not there or employers are not aware of the supports. Supports such as changing places and toilets are not available and PA support is not available for a lot of people. I met a young lady recently who has just graduated from college. She worked very hard to get through it. She is finding it very hard. She has no problem getting a job but the supports required for her to work are not available to her that easily, especially PA support. I would ask the witnesses to go back to the Department and to work on this area with the other Departments. It is hugely important. It is life changing if someone can get a job, especially people with severe disabilities.

Could Dr. Coates expand on goal 17 and the two targets there, 17.10 and 17.12? What are those targets and what is happening with respect to the Department's lead role in developing those targets?

Dr. Dermot Coates

Specifically for 17.10 and 17.12, the key role in this particular case has been flagged through the trade and investment strategy, titled Value for Ireland, Values for the World. It specifically identifies the commitment to more sustainable and responsible trade policy based on promoting human rights, safeguarding the environment, protecting social and labour rights and enhancing gender equality. The Department is also involved in a number of relevant files such as the EU generalised scheme of preferences, the Cotonou partnership agreement and the implementation of the EU agreement on anti-dumping measures and on fisheries subsidies. The Department has also run a number of trade conferences. The most recent was in July of this year on the promotion of free trade agreements by underscoring the benefits these give in terms of promoting and meeting our environmental and social goals. During trade missions, it is important to bear in mind that Ministers and officials, where appropriate, raise issues relating to environmental and social concerns and promote the use of free trade agreements to meet our responsibilities there.

Deputy David Stanton

On goal 9, relating to industry, innovation and infrastructure, one of the things about innovation is to do with patenting. I am not sure if the witnesses have any update for us on the unified patent court and what is happening with that. Having that in place would support innovation and entrepreneurs and so on. If Dr. Coates does not have that today, he might come back to us with it.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I can certainly tell the Deputy that quite a bit of work has been undertaken by the economics team in my general area on analysis. This is to identify what this might mean for us in practice. It is clear, when you look at the economic literature around innovation and highly productive economies, that they tend to be correlated with high levels of patent registration and that concept of economic complexity, which the Deputy would be aware of. On the more general point of the referendum and the progression of that legislation, I do not have an update at the moment but that is certainly something we can supply through the clerk after this meeting.

Deputy Richard Bruton

At a very high level, how often does that interdepartmental senior officials group, SOG, on SDGs meet? Is it really active or is it a relatively sleepy hollow?

Dr. Dermot Coates

From memory, the interdepartmental working group meets quite regularly and that reports up to the SOG. The interdepartmental working group is due to meet again next week. I believe the SOG meets two or three times a year but I will have to confirm the agenda for this year. I do not actually know.

Deputy Richard Bruton

It is coming up with regard to biodiversity and the citizens' assembly report on that is before the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action at the moment. The key issue coming out of that is the need for a higher-level tsar of some description to drive some of these elements that need to be interlocked across government. Those elements are obviously enshrined in the sustainable development goals. There is a sense that biodiversity has fallen off the radar, enforcement levels are low and we have allowed continuing degradation of all indicators of water quality and so on. What sort of powers does that group actually have to bang heads together and tell sectors that are not seen as meeting the requirements to sort things out?

Dr. Dermot Coates

As in any other area of public policy, the SOG functions as a meeting of very senior officials to monitor progress and report back to the Government on where we are-----

Deputy Richard Bruton

But a lot of the progress is going backwards.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I accept that in some areas, particularly around natural resources, there has been insufficient progress. One of the main motivators in these types of scenarios is that kind of peer-to-peer reporting, comparing Ireland with other countries and what they are doing. Things like the national voluntary reporting framework and the report that was published this year are very useful in that case. They highlight where we have fallen behind and help refocus attention.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I will come back when I have a chance.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the witnesses for coming here today. I want to ask first about goal 8.5, which relates to achieving full and productive employment and decent work for all women and men, including for young people and persons with disabilities, and equal pay for work of equal value. Do the Department and the Minister really need a report from the Low Pay Commission and research from the ESRI to tell them that legal adults aged 18 and 19 should be treated like any other adult in the workplace and paid like every other adult in the workplace for their work? That is not the case in Irish law at the moment. They are discriminated against based purely on their age.

Dr. Dermot Coates

Is that with reference to the national minimum wage?

Senator Marie Sherlock

Yes.

Dr. Dermot Coates

My understanding is that is currently under review by colleagues on the labour market side. They have taken advice on that. I do not have an additional update as to the status of that work but we can certainly-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

Dr. Coates is here talking about the sustainable development goals-----

Dr. Dermot Coates

I take the point entirely.

Senator Marie Sherlock

-----and the concept of equal pay for equal work. Can the Department really stand over the ongoing situation, notwithstanding that there are reviews ongoing and talk about changes? Today, an 18 or 19-year-old is discriminated against in work purely based on age if they are in a minimum wage environment.

Dr. Dermot Coates

The transition to the living wage will translate to a lift of the rates for someone who is 18 or 19 in line with the national minimum wage. I am not aware of any forthcoming decision on changing the position for 18 and 19-year-olds. The most I can say is that it is currently under review and we are aware of the various arguments back and forth. I entirely take the Senator's point about people being adults and being treated differently to other adults.

Senator Marie Sherlock

It is a blatant breach of the aspiration and the values set down within the sustainable development goals.

I want to pick up on the question Deputy Bruton asked about the interdepartmental working group. I would like to hear a bit more about who is on the group and what exactly the outputs of the group are. I also have a concern about the approach of the Department towards those who have a disability and bringing them into the workplace.

We can talk about the supports in Intreo or some of the subsidies that are available but is the Department really working with the other Departments to develop the costed disability allowance or to look at the potential labour supply and how we bring people who would like a job but are not actively looking for one because of the circumstances in their life? It could be because they are caring, have a disability or for another reason. To what extent is the Department trying to work with other Departments to try to activate people in the potential labour supply who would like to work but cannot do so because of the structural circumstances in their lives?

Dr. Dermot Coates

Going back to the Covid era, I was involved in establishing the labour market advisory council. Similar to the structure of the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council, it brings together senior officials-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

I sat on the first one.

Dr. Dermot Coates

-----to advise on the implementation of what is now known as pathways to work. I know people might say we just put in place some kind of structure or council but those are really important for driving progress against the goals and monitoring the goals. The council has published a mid-term review. That pathways to work strategy deals with matters such as the cost of disability, increasing the employment rate for people with disability, dealing with those not in education, employment or training, or NEETs, and those kinds of cohorts. That has been an important development and it is headed up by very high-powered people who are well capable of pointing out where we are missing our targets.

With monitoring, it is not simply Departments talking to each other but making sure we go beyond that and are talking to the public. Two stakeholder events are run each year, which are open for people to come and attend. We present at those on progress on the sustainable development goals, blockages and what has been achieved. I understand the next one will be held this Friday at the Aviva Stadium.

On the work of the interdepartmental working group, my colleagues Mr. Noujoum and Ms De Blasio, attend representing the Department. They might wish to contribute and give a flavour of the work of the group and some of its recent discussions, if that was of interest.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I am sure it would. I do not know if Dr. Coates said during Covid or back in 2014 because it was in 2014 that I sat on that body, not during Covid. The key point is that while there have been reports and there has been a lot of talk, we have not seen any substantial change in the numbers of persons with a disability in the workplace. It remains a fact, as I understand it, that Ireland has the highest number of jobless disabled persons among EU member states. The same applies to lone parents in that we have the highest number of jobless lone parents in the EU. I am hearing that there is a lot of talk but is there real action to ensure we bring those who want to work but cannot do so into the workplace? I need to address that point to the Department in respect of the work its doing.

Target 12.6 features a long list of legislative actions. It refers to the Work Life Balance and Miscellaneous Provisions Act, which incorporated the Right to Request Remote Work Bill, and states the enactment is expected early in 2023. It is now late 2023. The Bill was enacted in April this year. The Department has a vested interest, or perhaps not, in seeing this Act in force. It is still not in force, having not been commenced. What is the Department doing to ensure the right to request remote work and the right to flexible work is actually available to workers? At this time, the legislation has yet to be commenced.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I will have to come back on the exact status of the commencement order. I do not have a date for that.

Senator Marie Sherlock

What is written here is factually incorrect.

Dr. Dermot Coates

There is a misprint there.

Senator Marie Sherlock

My last question is on transparent and predictable working conditions.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator's time is up.

Senator Marie Sherlock

On the fact that the regulations have not yet been transposed, can Dr. Coates elaborate on that very quickly? I understood that all the regulations were transposed in December 2021 or in 2022. The Department states here that they are being finalised. I ask for an update on that.

Dr. Dermot Coates

My understanding is that some of those regulations are still outstanding and that work is ongoing but I can come back with a written response to the clerk setting out if there is anything outstanding and what the status is.

Senator Marie Sherlock

That would be much appreciated. I thank the Chair.

Senator Paul Gavan

I thank the witnesses for coming in and taking the time to provide a comprehensive opening statement. I will take up the target 8.8, protecting labour rights and promoting safe and secure working environments for all workers including migrant workers, particularly women migrants and those in precarious employment. My colleague, Deputy O’Reilly, asked whether the Department had any concerns about the Unfair Dismissals Act. I want to follow up on that. I have a particular issue with the Unfair Dismissals Act arising from ten years' practice as a trade union official. The Act, as currently constituted, means that where people are found to be unfairly dismissed, they will only get compensation in line with their loss. In other words, if they are unfairly dismissed from a job and they take up another job two months later, the maximum compensation they can get is two months' pay. In practice, that is often an easy outlet for bad employers to dismiss workers because they will not have to pay much in compensation.

I have dealt with numerous instances where people decided to join a trade union to stand up for their fellow workers and the unfair dismissal route was blatantly used by employers because they knew that the person would find work relatively quickly and, therefore, there would be no real damage done as it would cost a couple of grand in a pay-out. That is a fundamental flaw with the unfair dismissals legislation. There is not enough of a deterrent to employers to be careful around this. What does Dr. Coates make of that point? Is it not high time the Act was reviewed given that it does not give enough effective protection to vulnerable workers, particularly those who want to organise in trade unions?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I take the point that the type of practice described goes against the spirit of those protections for workers if the legislation is being used in such a way as to prohibit or constrain workers who wish to organise through unions, etc. I am not aware of any upcoming changes to the legislation to outlaw that specific practice or sharpen the penalties. We can speak to colleagues on the relevant legislative side to see when the Act was last reviewed or if there is anything scheduled for the next year. I can also feed back to them the Senator’s sense that there is a lacuna, which bad employers can take advantage of. From my experience, most employers are decent and try to do their best but if there are specific cases where employers are abusing the legislative provisions, I would not condone it.

Senator Paul Gavan

Dr. Coates is right; most employers are good. The difficulty, however, is that the unfair dismissals legislation is not there for the good employers but to protect workers from the bad employers. I can see Dr. Coates can see the logic of what I am saying-----

Dr. Dermot Coates

I do.

Senator Paul Gavan

-----which is that this is an easy route out for a small but significant element of bad employers. I welcome what Dr. Coates said because this is an Act that does need to be reviewed. I urge him to bring that message back, particularly in terms of the changing workforce we have. I am thinking in particular of some of the meat factories, which are a very important sector in our economy. Any time workers in these factories have tried to organise they have been dismissed. Meat factories are very cool about that. They say it is no problem and they will do a case for unfair dismissal, which is not an issue. This involves workers who desperately need to work. They have to keep their family supported and they will get another job quickly, unless they are injured. It is, therefore, an easy get-out clause. That particular sector consistently resists trade union organisation or recognition. That is a fundamental problem. These are some of the most important workers we have - they saw us through the Covid crisis – in one of the most important sectors we have and they have no real protection most of the time. That Unfair Dismissals Act definitely does not protect them. That is an example of a particular sector that I ask Dr. Coates to take back. I thank him for taking on board my points.

Dr. Dermot Coates

It is a reasonable observation that, against the backdrop of a labour market that is outperforming and certainly performing more strongly than we might have thought in the midst of Covid-19, for employers who behave in the way the Senator describes, it may seem like an immediate-term fix but they risk doing their own businesses medium- to long-term damage. A firm developing a reputation for treating its employees in that particular way will ultimately, against the backdrop of a labour market that is so tight, find that this makes recruitment more difficult in the future.

Senator Paul Gavan

Dr. Coates would say that and I get that point. This is a sector I have worked with extensively. The way the employers get around that is to focus almost exclusively on vulnerable migrant workers who have come to the country and do not speak our language. They have expertise in that particular sector but they are incredibly vulnerable. Those are the workers I had to deal with when they lost their jobs simply because they said to one of their colleagues, "Let's join SIPTU or let's join a trade union." That is the reality and Dr. Coates would probably readily acknowledge that. We depend tremendously on these fantastic migrant workers who come in. They work incredibly hard and are incredibly vulnerable and the Unfair Dismissals Act does not do them the service they deserve at this point in time. I ask Dr. Coates to take that on board.

As I am down to my last minute, I will ask one final question, if I may. Dr. Coates mentioned in his opening statement the high-level review group on collective bargaining established under the auspices of the Government's Labour Employer Economic Forum. It is more than a year since the report was published. What is the status of the work to incorporate into legislation the recommendations made by the high-level group on collective bargaining and industrial relations?

Dr. Dermot Coates

My understanding is that those proposals, those recommendations, are still under active consideration but I will come back to the clerk to the committee with a written response on whether there is an envisaged timeline or endpoint for that. I do not have more of an update on that.

Senator Paul Gavan

I understand. That is perfectly fine. Dr. Coates will not be able to answer all the questions we have and I get that. I would very much welcome if Dr. Coates would come back on that. I am pretty sure it was the Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, when he was in the role of Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment who said previously the Government was something to doing this within its lifetime. Realistically, we probably only have a year left of this Government. If Dr. Coates could give the committee a response and an indicative timeline, that would be very welcome.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I will do my best.

Senator Paul Gavan

I thank Dr. Coates.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I acknowledge the achievements of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It has been no mean achievement to manage Covid-19, Brexit and the Ukraine crisis, come through with 2.6 million people at work and, at the same time, move to introduce a living wage, sick pay and remote working rights, protect tips, have a new public holiday and move towards recognising collective bargaining. We also had the ruling on delivery riders. There is significant progress in improving the security of people at work and the number of people with decent conditions. That should be acknowledged because the Department's traditional primary role was around job creation and now we are asking a lot more of it. That is where I want to turn my questions to.

We have had the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, Skillnet Ireland, local enterprise offices, LEOs, and Enterprise Ireland before the committee. A resounding theme has been that sustainability is the key to competitiveness. However, only 1% of employers are engaged with SEAI programmes, 1% with Skillnet Ireland and a tiny percentage are engaged with Enterprise Ireland and the programmes that are designed to leverage transformation to make sustainability a permanent feature. Are alarm bells going off in the Department that we need to make a major shift in this area? That is certainly the sense I have. The Department has developed a decent suite of policies and at a high level we know the direction we need to travel. That is the reality, however. The reasons put forward for not introducing sustainability measures are often not based in reality. We heard cost is often put forward as a reason whereas many of these measures are cost-free and improve the profitability of businesses. In that context, does Dr. Coates see the need to make significant shifts? For example, should we have a sectoral strategy for delivering circularity and sustainability in the food sector? It is a big sector that is associated with a lot of the negative side of environmental damage in terms of biodiversity loss. Massive change could occur in the area of food waste and in the whole supply chain right down to packaging at supermarket level.

There is a golden opportunity for the Department to say it will make a real shift here. Is any thinking of that nature going on? I worry when I see the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications producing a strategy that is so far remote from the enterprise sectors where the action is happening. What is happening in the Department to say this transformational change is real and we cannot just confine ourselves to the industrial emissions, which I know the Department tracks? Enterprise's impact is much wider than just those narrow industrial emissions. I would like to hear Dr. Coates's view on that shift.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I take the Deputy's point. In terms of trying to shift the enterprise base or business in general to factor this into their thinking and as to how they measure and then action the change, that is a very steep challenge. We have been tasked by our management board to undertake detailed work looking at Irish enterprises in the context of employment, gross added value, GVA, and emissions and not to focus just on one strand of this. It is to disaggregate to where we could say where are the sectors that are really underperforming here and not just talking about industry or agriculture but being able to drill down into the data and see where the key imbalance is. I expect the results of that will be published in the next couple of weeks. We will certainly send them to all committee members afterwards. It would be a useful contribution to the debate.

What we are showing is that on the enterprise side, large firms, whether IDA Ireland or Enterprise Ireland colleagues, have climate action plans, monitor their emissions and are changing the mix of their energy. At the other end of the spectrum, micro-firms or firms we might consider to have been born in the decarbonisation era where this is part of their thinking tend to do quite well. There is a block of SMEs in the middle where the evidence would suggest they are disproportionately less likely to have a climate action plan and measure their emissions and that this is not the focus of the business. When we think about the nature of those businesses we are talking about people who are trying to run a small firm where they are the director, HR manager, accountant and salesperson. What is the extent to which they have the bandwidth or capacity to take this on board and really understand what it will mean for their businesses?

When we look at the economics and the concept of green complexity, we certainly see that there is a first-mover advantage for firms because those firms that adopted technologies and new business practices that enabled them to decarbonise and also make the digital transition will, in turn, reduce their own overheads. In that sense, being a laggard creates a risk that a firm will fall behind. We increasingly see, when we look at supply chains and value chains, that this is expected by consumers and peers so that pressure exists.

On foot of that study, I anticipate we will move with this to having a more intensive focus on those sectors and firms which do not take up the supports. As the Deputy rightly stated, the supports are there but there is a take-up issue. The State stands ready to assist those firms but there is a take-up issue. It is about how we move to really focus on those that could best benefit. Mr. Cummins may wish to address food security and circularity.

Mr. Joseph Cummins

We work quite closely with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on the circular economy plan and the bioeconomy plan. The food sector is clearly a focus of both those plans and Enterprise Ireland works directly with our large foods sector in terms of engaging on that, in particular, the bioeconomy plan. On the circular economy side, we engage through the manufacturing centre on CIRCULÉIRE, which has industry-focused engagements.

I refer to a set of activities that engage industry in a detailed assessment of supply chains, production processes and waste production and introduce circularity into business models. As a way of getting engagement, it has been extremely effective. This is because, essentially, it meets businesses where they are, looks at their operations on site and talks not in general terms about circularity but looks at specific products, biowastes, that can be reused in an enterprise. That is the right model. We need to build on it now to ensure there is better engagement right through the supply chain.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Yesterday, the assistant director of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, with responsibility for monitoring much of the degradation of nature, said this is the first generation of officials to appreciate the damage being done and the last generation capable of doing anything about it. This was a striking comment to make. My worry is that doing these reviews and reports and encouraging companies to participate in high-level strategies does not square up to the urgency of what is involved here. To some degree, we need to bounce sectors into rethinking. Mr. Cummins put his finger on the issue here. There is a first-mover advantage. If the Irish food sector gets ahead of this curve and becomes the go-to exemplar of how to manage food waste, address the use of various pollutants that might cause damage, minimise packaging, get consumers to be more alert to the way they consume, etc., it will be a win-win outcome.

I cannot see the action needed here coming from a fringe Department, be that in the context of the NPWS or having the issue of the circular economy wedged in as one element in a climate challenge that preoccupies that Department. We must, therefore, create something from within the enterprise sector to be the actor that bounces change. The easiest thing to do would be to follow the Dutch example, which has opted for sectoral compacts around circularity. This approach includes energy use, the extraction of raw materials, processing, primary production methods and packaging and retailing. This type of undertaking creates a sense that we are all in this endeavour together, so that the big beasts, be they the dairy or the beef processors, are involved, as are their suppliers.

Is Mr. Cummins' Department thinking of this? I put this question to representatives from Enterprise Ireland and they were not adverse. Obviously, though, they are not policymakers, no more than the witnesses are. There is a need for the Department, as the witnesses are its first generation of officials to realise where we are going and what we need to do, to create something in this regard by looking at other countries to discover what has been best practice there and then come up with a tool that could make the difference here for Ireland Inc. I am not expecting the witnesses to answer this query but this observation is one the Department's management board advising Ministers ought to consider. If it is agreed that sustainability is the key to long-term competitiveness for the country, we must put it up there in lights as to how we are going to deliver it.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I know I referred to doing a study and looking at firms. I entirely accept that the perception is sometimes that officials do study and that is the end output. It might be instructive to just understand the motivation at work when we undertook this study. We can see that across all sectors of industry and the economy in its entirety we have already eaten into a large proportion of the carbon emissions budget we set ourselves for 2020 to 2025. It is only 2023, but by the end of last year, we had already eaten into quite a bit of that allocation. The more this happens, the more efforts we will need to make in future. This is just unavoidable.

Additionally, we can see that the State provides a broad sweep of initiatives. As I mentioned earlier, though, there is a cohort in the middle that does not take these up. The point of undertaking the study, then, was to communicate that we need to do more in this regard. This was an exercise in refocusing on our risk basis, driven by the data, to say we know sectors A or B are making progress and are on the right track, but that we need to refocus our efforts on those sectors where we can see this message may not have been getting through to the extent we wanted it to.

The Deputy mentioned the management board. Regarding this particular piece of work, I will be discussing it with our own management colleagues next Tuesday. I assure him that they treat this with the utmost importance. It is something we need to drive. I can even say that within the structure of the Department, a previous assistant secretary had made the point recently to me that when he had joined the areas of climate and energy were part but not much of the focus. The staffing and resourcing that have gone into this context in the past couple of years, though, have ensured this topic has become a primary focus. I can say this without fear of any contradiction. This is where our focus is.

Mr. Joseph Cummins

To comment on the question of the bounce, what we are trying to do now is to get our supports and information system to a level that will enable companies to be clear about what they are being asked to do. Some of the feedback in the past referred to there having been talk about the green transition but that people did not know what it meant for their businesses. We are now, therefore, trying to put in place the basics to ensure everyone will have the right information and will be working to the same goal. Some of the endeavours we are undertaking in this regard include the climate toolkit for business and the GreenStart and the GreenPlus supports that allow companies to develop plans suitable to their own businesses.

In terms of the bounce, this is the next step. The corporate sustainability reporting directive essentially puts a reporting requirement on all large businesses. They will then have to assess the supply chains of products and report against them under the new regulations.

Frankly, we think this will put the squeeze on large portions of the economy. Plenty of small businesses that may not have had to report in this way before will now be asked by the companies they are selling to in their supply chains to provide information on carbon, sourcing, circularity, packaging, waste, etc. We think, therefore, that this squeeze is coming, and we are trying to ramp up the availability and awareness of these supports to ensure companies are not left behind. We want to have a transition where all SMEs have access to the right information and expertise to put in place plans that will allow them to demonstrate their sustainability and make the required investments over a period of a decade or so to ensure they will be able to meet their requirements.

I echo the point made by Dr. Coates. This has become a central message from our Department and also one from the sectors we serve. It is certainly a competitive discussion now. The food sector is particularly exposed, but across many sectors the sustainability and carbon footprint of products and services being sold is now a competitive advantage in the supply chains in which they operate. We will be under pressure to enhance our own competitiveness as an economy by making the right investments now to enable our industrial base, and the SMEs that cluster around it, to transition enough to maintain a competitive position in those value chains.

We are looking at the suite of offers we provide as a Department and how we integrate climate and decarbonisation into those offers. It should not be a situation where we talk about management capability or digitalisation or training in the absence of talking about decarbonisation. This will have to be a part of each of these conversations and we will need to build into those supports a requirement, ultimately, that companies must have a climate action plan in place and an understanding of how to address their sustainability. I say this because, frankly, we should not be giving companies management capability training or research and development supports if they have not thought about this transition. This is the next stage in terms of making this aspect more central in how we deal with every company interacting with our local enterprise offices, Enterprise Ireland, Industrial Development Authority Ireland, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and other agencies of the State.

Deputy Richard Bruton

If we had a top-level vision plus some elements of carrot, this would, ultimately, match what Mr. Cummins spoke about in respect of the drive from the marketplace putting the squeeze on. There is a need for the Department to achieve momentum in this regard.

Mr. Joseph Cummins

We are working at the moment on a decarbonisation roadmap under the auspices of the heat and built environment task force.

That should set out what supports are available at the moment, the enabling measures we need such as on our electricity grid and then, the sticks and the regulations that will bite towards the end of the decade to help industry to understand where they are in that transition and the incentives for moving now rather than later.

Deputy David Stanton

There are one or two other issues in the opening statement. Dr. Coates mentioned the Department is actively involved in a number of files such as the EU's generalised scheme of preferences, GSP, which is to expire this year. What are the plans to continue with that? Cambodia has been excluded from that particular group of preferences but Myanmar is still actively in there, which causes me huge concern. There are also questions about Bangladesh. I do not expect Dr. Coates to have the answers today that but as it was mentioned in the opening statement, it is important to draw attention to those issues.

He also mentioned the Cotonou partnership agreement. That is now 20 years old. Can we have an update on how that is going and what is going on there? It is linked directly to the goals we spoke about earlier. Those are the two issues I wishes to pinpoint draw attention to from the opening statement.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I apologise but I did not catch the second point?

Deputy David Stanton

That is the Cotonou partnership agreement.

Dr. Dermot Coates

Can I provide a written update after the meeting?

Deputy David Stanton

That is fine. There was also mention of an Organisation of African, Caribbean and Pacific States, OACPS, national authorising officer in each country. Will Dr. Coates let us know who that is in Ireland?

Deputy Richard Bruton

In the context of the SDGs, where does artificial intelligence, AI, and the explosion and widespread concerns about its impact in manipulating both in the commercial world and, indeed, the political world, fit in? Is there a goal that accommodates that? Is there a strategy in development? There is promised EU legislation on artificial intelligence but has that been encompassed by the SDGs?

Dr. Dermot Coates

I will have to come back to the Deputy on that but, speaking from memory, my understanding is at the time that these were initially framed and even following on from what were the millennium development goals, there is a long continuum here, it strikes me that the focus was not on AI. This comes back to Deputy O'Reilly's point earlier about fast-moving social media transformation. The technology is moving at such a pace that even three to five years ago, I am not entirely sure that when these goals or other policies or strategies were being framed, we were taking into account even in the medium term what some of these technological advancements were going to mean. In the goals we talk about political stability, decent work and open trade but we know now that some of these transformations such as AI are going to have real impacts on some of these sectors in terms of jobs, stability and communications. It is certainly something that the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council dedicated quite a bit of space to in its most recent annual report, flagging the apparent opening of that gap between public policy and the recognition of what these changes mean. I have no technical expertise and cannot even work the remote control at home but my understanding is we talk now about AI based on traditional computing models. Very soon we will get to a point where AI will run on quantum computing. That is a great leap. It is incumbent on us to put in place that type of policy and the frameworks and all of the regulations that go around that to do what can be done to keep pace. I may well have missed something in terms of a given sustainable development goal or sub-team that refers to these type of changes and if that is the case, we will certainly revert to the clerk to the committee afterwards. That is simply my general sense of how quickly things are moving.

Deputy Richard Bruton

Dr. Coates should put it on the agenda for the working group and see what cross-departmental officials say about it.

Dr. Dermot Coates

I really do not know how to work the remote control at home. It is gone beyond me at this point.

An Cathaoirleach

We thank the department officials, those present in the room and those online for assisting the committee with consideration of this important matter. That concludes our deliberation of this matter and the committee's public business. I propose the committee goes into private session to consider all other business. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.55 a.m. and adjourned at 11.12 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 November 2023.