Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action debate -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

COP28: Discussion

Good morning everyone. The purpose of today's meeting is to have a discussion in advance of COP28 which is taking place in Dubai. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Simon Murtagh, senior policy and research co-ordinator with Oxfam Ireland. Joining us online are Ms Fati N’Zi-Hassane, the Oxfam in Africa director, and Ms Ayan Harare, who is Oxfam in Africa's climate policy lead. From Trócaire, we are joined by Mr. Michael O'Brien, who is policy adviser, and from Christian Aid, we are joined by Mr. Conor O'Neill, head of policy and advocacy. We are also joined by Ms Karol Balfe, chief executive officer of Action Aid Ireland, and by Mr. Jerry MacEvilly, head of policy with Friends of the Earth.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege. I remind our guests of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses who are attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus should note that there are limitations to parliamentary privilege and as such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members of the committee are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House complex. Accordingly, I ask those Members who are joining us via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of Leinster House before making their contribution to the meeting.

I now invite Ms N’Zi-Hassane to make an opening statement on behalf of Oxfam.

Ms Fati N'Zi-Hassane

Thank you very much. Chairperson and members, I come before you today with a simple message: your inaction and apathy is killing us. The apathy of the rich world is killing us. Please let that sink in for a moment.

The number of African lives that were lost to hunger over the last two years is simply uncountable. Some say that lives are being lost at the alarming rate of one every 48 seconds. We know that roughly 27 million people are at crisis point in just four countries in east Africa. The region was still reeling from one of the most severe droughts in 40 years when heavy rains and floods hit Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia and South Sudan, killing at least 130 people. In Somalia alone, 1.5 million people are affected by the floods, more than 456,000 people have been displaced and 53 were killed. This should not be a surprise.

Back in 2022, Oxfam was already raising the alarm for communities in South Sudan, where 8.3 million people are about to experience severe food insecurity following floods. We shared the stories of the many families who have been unable to feed themselves after their livestock died and livelihoods were destroyed. We know more than anyone how these numbers are already overwhelming yet we cannot account for all the victims of these disasters.

In Africa, we found ourselves helplessly confronting and navigating through cycles of increasingly frequent and intense climatic shocks, transitioning from one to another. What we know for certain is that these droughts and floods would not have been so intense and frequent in a world without climate change. No one could dare say that five failed rainy seasons followed by devastating floods and several years' worth of heavy rains are not the product of a climate crisis. Yes, there are other causes of the hunger crisis, such as conflict and inequalities, but these factors existed before the five failed rainy seasons. This is what the reality of life in east Africa looks like today. This is what global warming looks like as we speak for my people here in Africa. What will it look like when we reach the 2°C or 3.2°C mark? Where are we heading? We need urgent action now from everyone.

The regions most affected by climate change and the communities most impacted by climate disasters are also the smallest contributors to global warming. Climate mitigation cannot and will not be understood and properly addressed without climate justice measures.

Some members may think of COP28 as a conference far away without too much relevance to their daily lives. The most informed sceptics in the room may even see it as the last chance for the fossil fuel industry to clean up its act in some unlikely technological way. Let me emphasise that we do not have the luxury of thinking in abstract terms. To us, this conference is vital for both our present and future.

Oxfam will make the following recommendations to COP28. We must limit global warming to 1.5°C and to do so, we must phase out fossil fuels fairly and at a much faster rate. We must reach the $100 billion climate finance goal, taking into account the shortfalls of unmet commitments of recent years. We must establish a loss and damage fund that does not repeat the mistakes of the past and instead gives agency to affected communities.

At Oxfam in Africa, we bring additional expectations to COP28. We must recognise the bottom-up approach, emphasising the importance of empowering local leaders in climate negotiations. We call for empowering local communities and local knowledge to co-create solutions. We urge just levels of support and prioritisation of locally-led adaptation solutions to address the impacts of climate change and we emphasise the need for actionable measures and a collaborative, inclusive approach to ensure a sustainable future for all.

Oxfam in Africa asks Ireland, which has been an ally and long-term supporter in the fight against all forms of oppression, to do this at COP28. It should be a champion of a loss and damage fund and support us to make the fund fair, gender-responsive and grounded in human rights to reach people and ecosystems quickly.

Members have heard the phrase “Nothing about us without us”. We must make this a reality with the loss and damage fund. Ireland must help us enshrine locally-led delivery in the DNA of the loss and damage fund from the beginning. Through the global stocktake, it should make sure our food systems are balanced, resilient and fair both in production and consumption. This is vital in Africa, just as members know it is in Ireland.

Ireland should also be imaginative. The richest 1% are amassing two thirds of all global wealth and creating at least a quarter of all carbon emissions. Ireland's environment Minister, Mr. Ryan, has said:

This is wrong. This cannot go on. This has to change.

Will the committee help us tax the super-rich to stop them and, in doing so, take the necessary steps to gain a vital new source of climate finance? We know that Ireland was always one of the best partners in development aid. It does not provide loans but life-saving grants, and there are no ties to its aid. We urge Ireland to stand by these principles again, this time with regard to climate finance and the loss and damage fund.

All of these questions are highly political but Ireland is a powerful voice that the European Union, the United States and the world cannot ignore. Just last year, this committee played a vital role in establishing the loss and damage fund by pushing the Irish Government to advocate for it as lead EU negotiator at COP27. I ask it to please stand with us again at COP28 and to help us to make the loss and damage fund locally led, gender-responsive and grounded in human rights. I ask it to join us in co-creating the fairness of tomorrow. I thank the committee.

I thank Ms N’Zi-Hassane for her opening statement. I call Mr. O'Brien of Trócaire to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Michael O'Brien

I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation to meet with the committee today to discuss COP28. The impacts of climate change on people in the global south have been very clearly addressed by Ms N’Zi-Hassane in her opening statement. I will further address some of the themes she has raised and will focus especially on loss and damage funding as a key outcome that Trócaire has prioritised for this particular COP.

As we all know, 2023 has been a year in which record temperatures have been repeatedly broken, with climate change impacts in the form of unprecedented wildfires, floods and droughts experienced worldwide. Insufficient mitigation and adaptation action to date, as confirmed in the first global stocktake of the Paris Agreement, means the risks associated with breaching that agreement’s 1.5°C threshold are increasingly imminent. As Ms N’Zi-Hassane has referenced, the impacts are more frequent and intense climate and weather events, which means that people around the world are experiencing rising loss and damage costs. With small island developing states and developing countries that have contributed least to the climate crisis facing its worst consequences, the climate crisis is deepening global inequalities. This injustice is manifest in the disproportionate impacts on people living in poverty and others in vulnerable situations and demands that climate action is rooted in human rights and climate justice principles.

The necessity of decisive accelerated action this decade is uniquely underlined for governments at this COP. For the first time since the Paris Agreement, governments are tasked with responding to a global stocktake, a report card on their collective climate action. The political response to the stocktake is a litmus test of governments' commitment to limiting global warming to that target of 1.5°C. These include the need for countries to set more ambitious and detailed 2030 and 2035 nationally determined contribution targets before COP30.

While the ambitious measures required now are costly, the costs will grow all the more burdensome the longer we wait. For communities Trócaire works with in the global south, the costs of insufficient action to date are increasingly devastating. One example is the impact of Cyclone Freddy earlier this year in southern Africa and specifically in Malawi, where we work. Global failure to adequately mitigate and support effective adaptation to climate change means increasing numbers of people are experiencing related loss and damage. After many years work to have loss and damage, which refers to climate change impacts that go beyond what people can adapt to, recognised as an essential third pillar of climate finance, a breakthrough was achieved at last year’s COP, with the parties agreeing to establish a new loss and damage fund.

A year on, significantly affected sectors, such as agriculture, which accounted for more than a quarter of all loss and damages between 2008 and 2018, and communities that have experienced and are experiencing economic costs, including loss of livelihoods, homes and land, and non-economic costs, including loss of life, culture and biodiversity, await the operationalisation of this fund. Ireland, as a country which played a leading role at COP27 forging agreement to establish the fund, followed by our participation throughout 2023 in the transitional committee meetings which have resulted in a list of implementation recommendations being brought forward to COP 28, has an important role to play in the successful operationalisation of the fund. New research by Christian Aid Ireland and Trócaire estimates Ireland’s fair share of loss and damage finance, to help developing countries pay for the cost of the climate crisis, to be at least €1.5 billion annually by 2030. My colleague from Christian Aid Ireland, Mr. O'Neill, will elaborate on how this figure was arrived at.

We urge Ireland to advocate for a clear commitment by richer countries to pay their fair share of finance into the fund on an ongoing basis. This funding, as Ms N'Zi-Hassane stated, should be additional, adequate, accessible and grant- and needs-based in line with core principles of equity, gender justice and human rights. While the COP27 decision to establish the fund was an historic first step, it has not yet been capitalised on. Wealthy and high-emitting nations such as Ireland can demonstrate leadership by being ready to make an initial substantial pledge to the fund at COP28. Members of Civil society are the people most affected and they need to be involved in the fund’s decision-making processes. Along with stakeholder engagement, civil society must have a seat on the board of the fund. Ireland should work to ensure the fund follows the principle of subsidiarity, wherever possible, and that it prioritises direct access, representation and participation in decision-making by impacted communities, including rural women, smallholder farmers and other marginalised groups. To this end, the fund should include a small grants window for direct access for local communities.

Trócaire welcomes this opportunity to draw the committee’s attention to these issues and the need for an ambitious response to the global stocktake report. Ireland must continue its leadership role with the loss and damage fund. Specifically, Ireland should be ready to make an initial substantial pledge to the fund at COP28, ensuring the pledge represents new, additional and grant-based finance. Ireland should further support the development of a fund that will provide predictable and adequate funding that is based on climate justice principles. Ireland should work to ensure the fund follows the principle of subsidiarity so that participation in decision-making by impacted communities, including those I have referenced and other marginalised groups, is to the fore. I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for their interest in these matters.

Mr. Conor O'Neill

I thank members for the invitation to speak. As an international aid and development organisation, we also witness the devastating impact that climate change is having around the world and the profound inequality underpinning it. I recognise and endorse the comments of my colleagues in Oxfam and Trócaire in this regard. In the interests of time I will focus more specifically on the question of loss and damage and some of the detail of what we would like to see in the COP28 and in this Parliament in the coming years.

As Mr. O'Brien mentioned, earlier this month Christian Aid Ireland and Trócaire published new research entitled, The Cost of Inaction, which has been shared with members, in which we estimate that Ireland’s fair share of loss and damage finance will be at least €1.5 billion per year by 2030. I want to look more closely at how we arrived at that figure as it illustrates some of the core political questions that still remain live ahead of COP28. The first key principle is that we have to work from the basis of need. A significant problem with previous climate finance targets is that they have generally been top-down and wholly political figures, as opposed to being based on any scientific assessment of need. We should not repeat this mistake with the new loss and damage fund. Our paper draws on a number of different studies which utilise climate and economic modelling. Here we focus on two of the most thorough, one from Climate Analytics and one from Markandya and González-Eguino.

The latter is the most recent and complete estimate of how much financing will be needed for loss and damage using an integrated assessment model to calculate how much would be needed for mitigation and adaptation financing under different warming scenarios, and then what residual or unavoidable costs remain.

A health warning is that large uncertainties remain in these models, not least because a failure to adequately deliver emissions reduction and climate adaptation now could significantly increase the costs of loss and damage in the future. If we overshoot the 1.5°C target, that could trigger climate tipping points, underscoring the importance and urgency of front-loading action. In that sense, the figures presented here are conservative estimates, and they tend to range around a global need of between €350 million an €450 million per year by 2030. It is for this reason that civil society, collectively, has proposed an initial floor for the new loss and damage fund at around this level. However, while earlier negotiating drafts included specific targets, they were later removed and the current working text that has been sent to COP28 does not provide any real detail on how much money ought to be raised or by when. We would like to see Ireland push for greater focus here, as well as provide support for a UN-led loss and damage finance gap report to provide a reliable and regular assessment of global need.

Returning to the table, a second important aspect is seeking to divide these global targets up into national level fair shares, which is the subject of a growing body of academic research. Here, we focus again on two estimates in particular. First, from the Overseas Development Institute, ODI, and then the climate equity reference framework, CERF, which has been developed by EcoEquity and the Stockholm Environment Institute. What these assessments do to calculate national fair shares is break down key factors, including contribution to global greenhouse gas emissions, current financial capacity, projections of future loss and damage costs, population size and differential pathways to staying within the global 1.5°C warming target. The CERF in particular, as an equity-based framework, also attempts to take into account inequality within countries, essentially exempting those below a certain income or development threshold from calculation of a national level fair share.

The methodologies are discussed in more detail and referenced in the paper, but while they differ somewhat, they arrive at very similar figures, 0.48% and 0.54%, respectively. In the whole, what this tells us is that of the global effort needed, we can estimate that Ireland’s fair share contribution is approximately 0.5% of that figure. We can apply these fair share estimates to best projections of need to give us ranges for 2030, with €1.5 billion as the floor and €2.5 billion as the upper bound.

The first and most important thing to note here is that we recognise that these figures, both at a global level and for Ireland specifically, are very significant. The scale is ultimately a reflection of the seriousness of the situation we are in. Much like the efforts needed to bend the global emissions curve down and stay within 1.5°C are huge, it stands to reason that the financial resources needed to deliver equitable, justice-orientated climate action would also be significant.

When we consider the scale, we think it is also extremely important to put it into a wider international context. For example, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, recently stated that subsidies for fossil fuels surged to over $7 trillion in 2022 alone. Our colleagues in Action Aid and Oxfam have estimated that a small number of energy companies recently made over $200 billion in excess profits, above already astronomical normal levels, in just two years. A deep and starkly unequal concentration of resources is a defining feature of the modern global economy, with Nobel Prize winning economist Thomas Piketty and co-authors noting in the World Inequality Report 2022 that the richest 10% of the global population now owns 76% of all wealth, while the richest 1% has captured almost 20 times the wealth of the bottom half of the world, or 4 billion people, since 1995.

To us, that is the crucial backdrop and reference point for this whole debate. It is a reminder that we cannot separate climate justice from economic justice. The resources needed for transformative, comprehensive action are significant but they are there. What is required is bold, ambitious and, crucially, co-ordinated international action to raise them.

This need for new thinking is reflected to an extent in the historic COP27 decision text to set up the loss and damage fund, which reiterates the importance of existing sources of finance, such as national contributions, but also recognises that they are highly unlikely to be sufficient. It specifically calls on governments to “identify and expand sources of funding”, including so-called “innovative sources”. There is a growing realisation that business as usual will not be sufficient and this has been an important element of the negotiations over the past 12 months.

For this reason, in section 12 of our report and in other research published by some of our colleagues in front of the committee today, we have set out a number of proposals, not just from ourselves, as development organisations, but from a broad range of CSOs, economists, human rights experts, international institutions and some government bodies, particularly from the global south, to marshal the resources needed. This includes, but is not limited to, more progressive, co-ordinated taxation of excessive corporate profits, extreme wealth and fossil fuel production; progress on debt relief; and new levies on aviation and shipping.

The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has emphasised some of these proposals in his own engagements at EU and UN level, which we recognise, and we very much agree with his insistence that the polluter must pay. What we are calling for now is much more detailed engagement with those proposals and work to ensure we deliver a properly capitulated loss and damage fund that is fit for purpose.

Ms Karol Balfe

Action Aid Ireland is a member of the Stop Climate Chaos coalition, like many of the other organisations before the committee today. We are very pleased to have this opportunity to engage with the committee just as COP is about to commence in Dubai.

The impact of the climate crisis has been well covered by many of my colleagues but I want to touch upon the gendered impact of the climate crisis. According to UN Women, women and children are 14 times more likely to die from a climate disaster than men, 80% of those displaced in climate disasters are women, and the greater the inequality, the greater the disparity between men’s and women's chances of survival. Therefore, it is a highly gendered issue that is causing terror and grief, as well as compounding poverty and inequality.

I will pick up on some of the points around financing and the crucial issue that most of the world's money is flowing to the causes of the climate crisis rather than the solutions. The committee will be well aware that fossil fuels are by far the largest contributor to climate change and they account for 75% of global greenhouse gas emissions. What we know in Ireland, although it is less known globally, is the role of industrialised agriculture and its contribution to the climate crisis. This industrialised agriculture, which is controlled and marketed by giant agribusiness corporations, is responsible for the bulk of emissions in that sector and is the second-largest contributor to global greenhouse gas emissions.

Financing provided for fossil fuels and industrial agriculture in the global south is likely to dwarf the finance provided by international banks for renewable energy and agro-ecology, which is a sustainable form of farming that many people living in poverty rely on to survive. Research conducted by Action Aid globally shows that only 7% of the financing provided by major international banks has gone to renewable energy in the seven years since the Paris Agreement. To put it simply, the climate emergency has a cash flow problem, and the figures are staggering.

In the seven years since the Paris Agreement was signed, ActionAid research with the company Profundo found funding to the fossil fuel industry in the global south reached an estimated $3.2 trillion and bank financing provided to harmful, large-scale agribusiness amounted to $370 billion over the same period. Since the Paris Agreement, banks have provided 20 times more financing to fossil fuels and agricultural activities in the global south than global north governments have provided as climate financing to those countries on the very front line of the climate crisis.

Unfortunately, Ireland has a very uncomfortable role in this. Profundo analysed financial institutions headquartered and registered in Ireland, looking at both agribusiness and fossil fuel industries. As the committee is well aware, more than 1,200 multinational companies have established themselves in Ireland, including 20 of the top 25 financial services. Those investment managers registered $6.2 billion in bonds and shares attributable to fossil fuels and agribusiness in the global south. This is not an accident. This is the design of the Irish economy, where those companies are headquartered and it is no surprise we see this scale of funding. The top six investments are all oil and gas companies, including Shell, Exxon and Chevron, and are funded from some of the top US financial institutions like BlackRock, State Street and Marsh McLennan. This comes in the context of Ireland’s tax regime, which has been widely criticised by various organisations represented here, but also by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which said Irish tax policies are undermining the ability of other countries to raise revenue to address poverty experienced by children in those countries and it is now clear given these figures that this tax regime is also having a very harmful impact on the climate crisis in the global south.

It is somewhat of a surprise that Ireland has the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act, which would, on the face of it, make one think these types of investment should not happen. We reviewed the Act in the research. I state clearly this was landmark legislation in 2018, with Ireland being one of the first countries to bring in such legislation and, therefore, a global pioneer. However, as the scale of the climate crisis has increased, so too must our actions. In our review of the Act, we found a number of shortcomings. It only looks at undertakings, that is, new explorations. It excludes indirect investments, meaning hedge funds and derivatives are excluded from the Act. It does not deal with harmful agribusiness at all. It also has no review clause built into it. There are, therefore, a number of areas where this could be strengthened. The research we funded found some investment by the strategic investment fund in both fossil fuels and agribusiness, but given the limited scope of the Act both are probably perfectly legal, thereby highlighting the issues with it. It is really important to note the $6.2 billion is not in any way dealt with in the Act, so that major figure being channelled through Ireland is not being included. This is simply unacceptable in a time of unprecedented climate breakdown. Ireland’s strong overseas development work, our commitments in climate financing - though short of what they should be - and our work on loss and damage absolutely need to be coherent across all government policy and this is an issue the Government must address.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I thank the Chair and committee members for the opportunity to present on behalf of Friends of the Earth. We support the recommendations by the other Stop Climate Chaos coalition members. My longer written statement contains additional information on the recommendations to both this committee and Government that I will discuss.

The committee is well aware that climate breakdown is already with us, impacting Ireland and especially vulnerable communities in developing countries.

The UN Emissions Gap Report recently concluded that we are headed for a disastrous temperature rise of almost 3°C based on current state pledges. The only way to ensure a liveable planet is to substantially and equitably reduce the extraction and consumption of fossil fuels in Ireland and globally. The IPCC, the UN and the IEA are all clear that further fossil fuel production and infrastructure expansion are incompatible with the 1.5°C limit. The point is that technological innovation and a renewables revolution are not enough; hard limits on fossil fuels are essential.

Yet fossil fuels remain the elephant in the room in terms of climate negotiations. It is important for this committee to consider public perception here. A multilateral process barely capable of even mentioning fossil fuels thus far, while seemingly dominated by fossil fuel interests, threatens the very credibility of the COP. The COP negotiations will remain essential. However, the public may increasingly ask why they should support climate action at home when the fossil fuel elephant in the room is seemingly deprioritised at the negotiating table.

In terms of the COP itself, the EU negotiating position includes strong calls for the energy sector to be "predominantly free of fossil fuels well [ahead] of 2050", have "a decarbonised power system in the 2030s", and "a tripling...of renewable energy" and "doubling...of energy efficiency by 2030". However, it also includes the demand for the "global phase-out of unabated fossil fuels", though subject to some important qualifications. The EU Parliament's subsequent resolution on the EU's COP engagement, while not a negotiating mandate, points to a willingness at political level for an enhancement of the EU's position. The parliament does not limit its support to a phasing out of unabated fossil fuels; rather it calls for "a tangible phase-out from all fossil fuels as soon as possible", as well as a "halting [of] new investments".

It is worth briefly addressing the risk of a call for a phase-out of only "unabated fossil fuels", understood as referring to technologies like carbon capture and storage, CCS. We note certain emissions removal activities have been raised as being necessary for Paris Agreement commitments to remain within reach. However, the creation of such an unabated category must not be accepted at COP28. CCS projects remain speculative, unproven, not commercially viable, associated with environment or health risks and-or have failed outright. The greatest concern is that this unabated formulation may result in a loophole or a perverse incentive for states and companies to continue to expand the use of fossil fuels while these technologies have limited impact, thereby locking in further polluting emissions. This is not a theoretical problem. Precisely this scenario is playing out in the UK, where the Conservative Party Government approved yet more fossil fuel exploration, together with new support for CCS. This has been met with widespread criticism as essentially being tone-deaf to the climate crisis.

At COP28, governments will produce a response to the first global stocktake of climate pledges. We know the result of this stocktake will indicate that states' pledges, or nationally determined contributions, NDCs, have fallen short of Paris Agreement commitments. It has already been proposed that this response include demands noted in the EU's position on tripling renewables and doubling energy efficiency. We understand there may be support from the US and China for a global renewable target, although their support for any agreement on fossil fuel phase-out is much less certain. In October, however, Ireland and 15 other states, as part of the high ambition coalition, also released a statement on the global stocktake, which includes calls for a phase-out of fossil fuel production and use, urgent reductions in methane, the ending of fossil fuel finance and subsidies, as well as the renewables and energy efficiency goals mentioned earlier.

Our main recommendation to the committee is that the Government and the EU must work to ensure the text is not only limited to renewables and energy efficiency, but is complemented by clear fossil fuel phase-out language, in line with the positions of the European Parliament and High Ambition Coalition. We understand the Government will prioritise a call for innovative forms of finance, potentially including taxation of fossil fuel industry profits to assist with access to clean energy in developing countries. This is significant, commendable and necessary. However, without fossil fuel phase-out commitments, the benefits of the development of renewables will continue to be dwarfed by the impacts of fossil fuel production and expansion.

There are other diplomatic avenues the Government should exploit to deliver lasting change. Last year, we provided information to this committee on the development of a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty. We outlined that Ireland's support for such a treaty is strategic given the country's rejection of exploration licences, membership of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, alignment with small islands states at the UN and the Department of Foreign Affairs' proud tradition of supporting other non-proliferation treaties related to nuclear weapons and disarmament. The global stocktake will only reinforce arguments that a new binding framework is needed. This proposed treaty also aligns with the fossil fuel recommendations in the EU Council and European Parliament positions.

To be clear, this is not about deprioritising the Paris Agreement; it is about complementing it and acknowledging that we do not have time. Fossil fuel projects simply cannot be accepted.

To conclude, eight years after the signing of the Paris Agreement, the fact that questions remain about states' capacity to make an explicit statement on fossil fuel phase out speaks not only to the malign influence of the fossil fuel industry but, equally, to a lack of political leadership and weaknesses in the COP process.

This is not some call now to disregard multilateral efforts; rather, it signals that long in advance of COP the negotiating position of states and the EU needs to be subject to much greater scrutiny and oversight and explicit in the need for fossil fuel phase out. For Ireland, this starts with this committee.

We ask the committee to write to the Ministers for the Environment, Climate and Communications and Foreign Affairs to: support the European Parliament and the High Ambition Coalition positions and advocate for a response to the global stock take which includes commitments to a tangible and equitable phase out from all fossil fuels as soon as possible, as well as a halting of investments in fossil fuel extraction; call for climate pledges - NDCs - to also integrate plans and targets for ceasing expansion and use of fossil fuels, as well as phasing out existing infrastructure; and convene like-minded states and use the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, BOGA, to build diplomatic support for a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty and develop a UN resolution on this issue.

Finally, we also now call on committee members to endorse the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty in the run up to COP.

I thank Mr. MacEvilly for his opening statement. We had five incredibly thorough and well-articulated opening statements there. It is hard to know where to begin as there is so much in each of them. We probably do not have enough time today to go through the detail in all of them as much as we would like. I thank the witnesses for putting so much effort into the opening statements and for being clear in their asks as well. That is helpful for us.

I invite members to indicate to ask questions of the witnesses and note that, because we have five before us, as necessary, I will be strict with time. We will go with five minutes for questions and answers and I will allow latitude if I think it is important and will help the conversation.

I will ask quick questions first of Mr. O'Neill and Ms Balfe. Taking at face value the fair share - the €1.5 billion to €2.5 billion - that Ireland should pay to mitigate, in addition to our over overseas development aid, ODA, budget, as its contribution to the impact of climate change overseas as there is probably very thorough and legitimate research that has led to those numbers, I am wondering is there any analysis of the impact that kind of spending might have on our own country and can we channel that amount into this worthy cause? I am wondering has anybody looked at that. Has there been any response to that call? Is there research that would show how that could be done in such a way that we can do it politically here? It is important for us to understand that.

Ms Balfe outlined key deficits in the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act 2018 and Action Aid Ireland is asking Government to address those. It is a similar question. What are the constraints to amending the Act? Is it purely political? Are there perhaps other legal and constitutional challenges relating to the Act? If Ms Balfe can answer that, it would be quite helpful for us.

On Mr. McEvilly's request that we would write to the Ministers, bearing in mind that COP28 is beginning, we can certainly discuss that request in our private session later this afternoon.

Mr. Conor O'Neill

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the questions. Something that Christian Aid and Trócaire wanted to make clear in our opening statements with regard to the research is that we recognise the magnitude. This is part of the reason we tried to focus and emphasise the tax side so much in the research, in the presentations today and at the launch in Leinster House two weeks ago with Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh. The financing question is the crucial flipside of what is required to deliver on climate action. We very much accept that if this is left up to the normal push and pull of parliamentary budgeting it is very unlikely we will get there because the resources needed are so significant. The flipside of this, however, is the call in the COP decision to explore what in COP parlance is termed innovative sources of financing. For example, yesterday I listen to former President Mary Robinson speak ahead of COP at UCC. She said that last year the fossil fuel industry made $4 trillion in profit. This is not revenue but profit. This is the loss and damage fund ten times over, plus change, at a global level.

The message is that business as usual will not be enough. We have to be good neighbours internationally with regard to how we try to capture these resources. As Ms Balfe mentioned in her statement, the question posed for Ireland is that there are two different directions we could go on this. With regard to the taxation of corporate profits and wealth, the current international arena is characterised by intense competition. There is often a beggar thy neighbour type of approach whereby countries, especially in the European Union, intensely compete against each other. We see effective rates fall to give companies the best deal because countries want them to base there. Even within the European Union as an economic bloc, we have not been able to flex collective muscle to turn this race to the bottom around and raise these types of resources.

Ireland cannot have it both ways. If we are to stay on the path we have been on, and see ourselves to a large extent as winners of the intense tax competition, the burden will fall on the fact we are running a massive budget surplus. On the other hand, if we are willing to engage in conversations - rhetorically, the Government has pushed in this direction - on taxation of wealth and corporate profits and levies on aviation and shipping, and we do this at a co-ordinated international level, it will mean that in the next five, six or seven years there will be less pressure on the core national budget. We would like to see the committee make this link. The climate action we speak about requires resources. It will be very difficult, if not impossible, to do this purely on the basis we have done so far. International co-operation will be essential if we are to do it properly.

Ms Karol Balfe

I hope there is no political or legal reason that we cannot amend the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act. We published this research in September and we will work on it with Deputy Pringle's office. He was instrumental in the Bill coming before the House in 2018 with Trócaire and the Global Legal Action Network. This set of recommendations on the Act is based on a very recent review. It is important to note it is relatively new legislation which dates to 2018. It is not an incredibly old Act when we look at other legislation. It is clear what we can do to review it; the question is what our level of ambition will be. The Fossil Fuel Divestment Act refers to the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund only. It refers to undertakings only. It excludes indirect investments. There is an immediate set of actions that we could take to strengthen the Act, specifically to allow the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund to have a greater impact and make it more effective.

Even back in 2018, the warning bells were very much ringing with regard to the climate crisis but where we are in 2023 is unprecedented in terms of its scale.

Ireland has the opportunity to be a real leader. The bigger question around ambition is how much further we could go beyond the strategic investment fund, and how we will look at the billions that are not even touched by the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act. Those figures are staggering. Some €6.1 billion is being channelled through Ireland. That is what it boils down to. We will certainly engage with the committee and through Deputy Pringle's office, along with any other parties that are interested in taking this forward. We hope it is not in the realms of imagination that the commitments we made in the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act could easily be strengthened to address some of these shortcomings. It is hoped there will not be major political or legal barriers to this.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. As the Chair said, they were in depth. There is an awful lot to cover.

I will focus on the investment fund. The research and review are incredibly timely because the principles underpinning the incorporation of the divestment Act into the infrastructure fund appear to be exactly what is underpinning the new infrastructure and climate and nature fund announced in the budget, where €14 billion is to be set aside. It was described at the time as a step change when it comes to climate action, but the exact same principles appear to apply in the heads of Bill.

In a similar vein, it is stated in the general scheme that "the Future Ireland Fund and the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund are not directly invested in a fossil fuel undertaking", and where there is an indirect investment it cannot be in excess of 15% of the assets, but these are exactly the same terms as those in the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act. The general scheme further states that the agency may invest the assets of these funds in a fossil fuel undertaking as long as these do not go against the objectives of the national transition and the State's climate change objectives, which reads to me that the State could invest billions in a coalmine internationally because it would not impact any of our national obligations.

Are the representatives worried that the terms, conditions and principles of this climate and nature fund will be based on, and have the same deficits, as appear to be in the fossil fuel divestment fund? What changes would they like to see? We are obviously at a very early stage with just the heads of Bill being published. Now is the opportunity to make sure that this large climate fund gets it right.

Ms Karol Balfe

I do not know whether Mr. MacEvilly wants to come in on any point around that. It is concerning, however, because the evidence and reality are clear. We have to have a full phase-out of fossil fuels and allowing for any undertakings is problematic in that way. Our research, which did not look at the heads of that proposal but more at the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act, indicates that indirect investment is troubling. It was excluded at the time but it essentially means the fund is saying that while we will not invest directly, doing so through hedge funds is completely fine. It undermines the spirit of what the Bill is trying to do. As we look at reviewing the divestment Act, we will hopefully make sure that those principles apply across the board. The other thing excluded from the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act at the time was agribusiness and making sure there was as wide a scope as possible that covers all climate-harmful activities.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I will come in briefly. I thank the Deputy for the question. The point she made makes complete sense in respect of alignment between the heads of Bill and a potential new amendment to the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act. On the one hand, we would not necessarily want to see delays in the development of that new fund. However, we are very happy to look at that heads of Bill. What the Deputy is getting at, to essentially re-articulate or maybe look at what she said in a different way, is alignment between the heads of Bill and the climate Act. It is also about factoring in her point regarding whether we are also appropriately addressing capturing the potential for emissions abroad.

While also factoring in the Deputy's point on whether we also are appropriately addressing capturing the potential for emissions abroad, they are important and valid questions and we would be happy to input on the heads of that Bill.

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. As the Chairman said, there is an enormous volume of material here and it is difficult to put it into a framework where it is easy for us to drive it forward. As I understand it, Ireland is trying to align itself to the European Green Deal, and I know from being also a member of the enterprise committee that that is quite a challenge, with the new supply chain responsibilities, the new taxonomy on investment, the new targets that are being set, the phase-out of internal combustion engines and so on. Against that background where Ireland is struggling to meet some of its targets and is probably falling behind in areas such as even waste management, what does Mr. MacEvilly mean by putting hard limits on fossil fuel investment? In Ireland and elsewhere in Europe, internal combustion engines are still being sold. Europe has set a date for a phase-out and there was a great deal of debate about whether it should be 2030 or 2035, but Friends of the Earth seems to be going well beyond that. How, in practical terms, can we get people on board for such a change from the European Green Deal or go well beyond it? The impression I get is that the rest of the world is not anywhere close to where the European Green Deal is.

There was a reference to industrialised agriculture having to be added to fossil fuel in having hard limits and so on. Again, in an Irish context, what does that mean? We have a mixed agriculture with different sizes. I do not think many people would describe it as industrialised agriculture but it is responsible for 35% or more of our CO2 emissions. If that is to be included, with investment curbs and so on, what does that mean in an Irish context? I need to understand the scale of this. Everyone is on board for enhancing the targets and we know that the national contributions are not adequate. Ireland has stepped up its contributions considerably and is struggling to deliver that.

Ms Balfe singled out investment in a Chinese utility company as an example. I am sure China is trying to do a transition and I get the impression it is, even though it is slower than the rest. It is setting 2060 as the net zero year, as opposed to 2050. In this transition, is Ms Balfe saying we should cut off at the knees any of these companies that are engaged in electricity because they have some coal in their portfolio, which is a no-no? Is that what she is saying by singling out an individual company that, presumably, has some green and some non-green activities it is trying to transition through?

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I might start and then hand over. I fully take the Deputy's point that we cannot be flippant when it comes to the implementation of the fossil fuel phase-out, and it has real implications and links for EU policy.

To explain from a practical perspective, we need a framework for limiting and reducing fossil fuel production in line with or similar to the entire governance framework that we now have in place for carbon budgeting and emissions. To give a practical example of that, the Government's new energy security package includes significant commitments to reduce average and peak gas demand. It also highlights carbon budget scenarios which show the limited role of gas in the energy system post 2030. From an Irish perspective, which I appreciate is not the same as the EU's NDC, we need those clear targets and framework planning on fossil fuel production and investment, allied to or complementing the carbon budget governance framework. What that precisely looks like at EU level is linked to future elections at EU level. To link it back to COP28, there are robust statements and recommendations in the EU position, particularly in the European Parliament position, and the position of the high ambition coalition.

Friends of the Earth is primarily asking for us to go beyond the rhetorical, as Mr. O'Neill said, and to spend real political capital in the negotiating room on ensuring that the robust language on fossil fuel phase-out is in place because, without going through everything I stated previously, on one hand, it could easily be watered down, and on the other hand, only having a commitment in the area of renewables and energy efficiency simply is not enough. Lastly, as the committee would know well, where there are clear commitments at COP28 level, they will, of course, inform the EU policymaking framework too.

If anyone else wants to speak on these questions, since the first question is quite general, please indicate.

Ms Karol Balfe

On the industrialised agriculture, the report looks specifically at investment in the global south, not at Irish agriculture. It looks specifically at investments by the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund in the global south. Industrialised agriculture is defined in a number of ways. It is usually large-scale, mechanised agriculture that is controlled by a number of agribusinesses. It usually involves land use changes, whether monocrops, deforestation, or land grabs. It usually has a devastating impact on communities in the global south. There is high use of nitrogen fertilisers and large-scale emissions from methane or livestock.

In this report, we are not talking about the small-scale Irish farming. It looks specifically at investments in the global south, specifically those related to the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. We looked at the company for a similar reason. It was not a case of singling out a Chinese company. The research company looked at all investments over a particular period that had been made in fossil fuels. One was from this Chinese fossil fuel company that the strategic investment fund had invested €12 million in. It is significant because it comes under the remit of the strategic investment fund that the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act covers. While the assumption would be that all fossil fuels are excluded from the strategic investment fund, the transition is complex when we move away from oil, coal and gas. The nature of the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act and the fact that the strategic investment fund has made that commitment to divest is what makes it significant. Over the period, these were the funds that emerged. It was not a case of us going for one company. It was just the investment that emerged during the research.

Mr. Michael O'Brien

I will respond more broadly about the interconnections between climate and agriculture and food systems. As we know, agriculture and food systems account for up to 40% of global greenhouse gas emissions. Historically, they have not been a central part of the COP negotiations.

It is encouraging to see how, at this COP, they are being given a higher profile.

Sustainable food systems transformation has been recognised as an imperative not only in terms of meeting the Paris Agreement objectives but also in respect of the sustainable development goals. There is general consensus on the need to support just transitions through solutions that are known to support social equity and environmental justice. There are distinct opportunities for Ireland at this particular COP, given the higher profile that the Presidency and indeed the COP agenda has given to this interconnection. These specifically relate to the global stocktake, where Ireland is already a member of the food systems transformation coalition that was established in 2021 as part of the food systems summit on transformation through agroecology. Ireland can indeed be a progressive voice in promoting recognition at this COP for the adoption of agroecology as a pathway towards maintaining healthy, productive food systems under climate change not only in the global stocktake outcome and the political outcome, but also in a process that was established at the last COP called the Sharm El-Sheikh joint work on implementation of climate and agriculture and food security, and finally, in the emirates' initiative for a declaration on resilient food systems, sustainable agriculture and climate action. Each of these forums, in each of these threads at this COP, there is an opportunity for Ireland to show leadership in relation to the coalition it has joined, which it sees as part of the transformation of food systems.

I thank the witnesses for their extensive contributions. They are very useful for us and very well set out in terms of the specific asks. I have a question on an issue that a number of people have raised. There is a sense that there are clear asks at this COP. There are question marks over the COP, and the media coverage it has got in recent days has focused on oil deals and everything else that has done been there. There is a specific ask in relation to loss and damage and the hope that we will make some progress on that. There is also a wider piece that a number of the witnesses have touched on, namely, on financial and taxation systems. I know that there have been discussions on it. We have the Bridgetown Initiative, and I am aware that Emmanuel Macron has anchored some climate finance talks. There is also the Inflation Reduction Act that has been passed in the US. Here, Professor Aidan Regan and others have been highlighting the issue. Can I get the witnesses' sense of the importance of progress in that regard, and what that might look like, and the barriers to that progress? What are the vehicles for delivering it? What are the multilateral forums that exist, or are there new ones that might deliver on progress in that regard?

Mr. Conor O'Neill

I wish we had more time in this committee because to us, tax is where the action is. Almost everything that we talk about, whether it is the kind of core development work of poverty reduction or investing in equitable climate action, the question always arises - as it ought to - as to how we pay for it. Part of the reason we are trying to be propositional on that, and not overly prescriptive because there are a number of options here, is to try to shift the burden away from just a solely national budgetary process to think about how capital moves around the world, and particularly through the European Union.

In terms of the barriers and what could be useful there, one of the most encouraging things to take from a really dark period from the height of the Covid pandemic, and from the response to the massive inflation in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, is that political shocks like that can help to drive economic policy ideas, which for a very long time have been seen as fringe or marginal, right back to the centre of international thinking. Some of those are laid out, but as an example, the idea of a tax on excess corporate profits has been talked about in the tax justice movement for a very long time.

There was resistance even to the idea of an idea that corporate tax could be broken up into what is so-called normal and what is excess. If you fast forward then, the data from KPMG show that, since the beginning of last year, a tax on the excess profits of certain corporate actors has been either passed into law or advanced in basically every single EU country, making more than 30 in total. Many of them started like we did in Ireland, which we really welcomed, on something that is narrow and focused solely on energy companies but in the last number of months have actually expanded to talk about other sectors, particularly financial institutions. That is the kind of change that needs to happen on the climate. There does not seem to be that same urgency to treat this as an emergency. When the Covid-19 pandemic happened, every single available resource was marshalled. The cost of our response to Covid-19 was massive but we appreciated, in the emergency, that the cost of inaction and of not doing it - not only in the monetary sense but in people's lives - would have been much greater. If one of the things that comes out of this committee is a re-engagement with the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, and an acknowledgement that we will not deal with this properly without talking about those big issues, particularly corporate tax, it would be a big success. We would be very happy to come back and discuss the link between climate and economic justice in more detail with members.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

To answer Deputy O'Rourke about the overall financial architecture, I will start with Barbados and, as was said, the Bridgetown Initiative, then the Macron summit in the summer. At the moment, there is a task force on international taxation which is being initiated by France and Kenya. There are a number of countries which have been asked to join, and are likely to join, and Ireland is listed among them. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, is very much using the language of that task force, which is good to hear, with "innovative sources of finance" being the key phrase. We would urge that these are the fairest and most progressive sources of finance. The cornerstone of this are international taxes on wealth which would reach the trillions. That is where this is moving. When it comes to COP28, there will be a high-level ministerial statement towards the end. Therefore, we will be looking for strong language on all the areas mentioned by our Africa director first of all, on community-led delivery, that is, when it comes to loss and damage the finance reaches communities on the ground, but also on this key fairness principle within the innovative sources of finance. It looks like Ireland is getting close to that. We do not have an announcement but certainly listening to the Minister last week, he talked about those sources of finance and emphasised them very strongly.

Another point, outside of the COP process, is on the investment piece. In the European package Deputy Bruton spoke about, there is a directive which the committee members will all have heard of now. This is the corporate sustainability due diligence directive, CSDD. That is coming to the end now. The trilogue process is ending. MEPs on all sides - across parties and Independents - have been tremendous on this. We are now at the point, working also with our Government through the Council, of trying to keep financial institutions to their climate obligations, to see that this key principle is at least maintained, and that there is a sensitivity in the final directive towards indigenous people on the ground and that it is very gender-responsive as well. Those are the key principles. Certainly that CSDD, which is a terrible acronym, is another key piece of legislation on which we are all working and it very much affects financial investments. We are fighting to keep that in, quite frankly.

Ms Karol Balfe

I will respond to Deputy O'Rourke as well. The other structural issues, from an economic perspective, are debt and austerity. The global south is absolutely crippled with debt so the most climate-vulnerable countries are at risk of debt or are in severe debt and 93% of those countries which are climate vulnerable experience that debt.

Debt cancellation would allow those countries to respond to the climate emergency and look to development and the transition to agroecology and renewable energy. The other aspect relates to the role of the international financial institutions, which continue to be very northern-focused and northern-driven and to work in the interests of northern powers. Despite the rhetoric changing - we have heard criticism of structural adjustment and there has been rhetoric change from the IMF, recognising the impact of austerity - the practice has not changed. The same countries Ireland is supporting through its overseas development aid are being instructed by the IMF to cut funding on public services and the public sector wage bill. All this compounds the climate crisis for those countries and their ability to deal with it.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. There is a significant amount in it, as others have said. Ireland, through the Minister, Deputy Ryan, but also the Department of Foreign Affairs, was core to getting loss and damage established last year. As Ireland now has that reputation, it is important that we play that pivotal role. On the issue in respect of debt, one would not want loss and damage funds to be put in place only for them to be eaten away by paying back debt. It would not make sense. Mr. O'Neill referred to the importance of making these global deals. When it comes to corporate tax, it is not so much about the tax and the individual country but, rather, it is about competition for business. We do not like to say that in such bare terms but that is exactly what it is. We cannot do it alone. That must be clear. That €1.5 billion to €2.5 billion is a scary amount of money when one considers it is equivalent to approximately half the annual housing budget in this country. What three things would the witnesses love to see coming out of the loss and damage? I refer to the importance of getting the other aspects, such as debt management, in place at the same time. What are we expecting other countries to do? What would be the fair share of the US or China, using those calculations? I am interested in the comparison in that regard. Ultimately, this is a negotiation. it has to make sense for countries and we have to all do it together.

Mr. Conor O'Neill

I cannot believe how many questions there have been about tax. It is like Christmas. On the loss and damage fund specifically, we try to come at this in a spirit of constructive criticism. We are trying to focus on what is still be improved. It is important, however, to recognise the role Ireland played. Ms N'Zi-Hassane referred at the beginning of the session to the role played by the committee. I appeared before the committee last year. It is fair to say the issue of loss and damage was not as deeply circulated across many parliaments throughout the world. A clear demand came from this Parliament to the Irish Government. It was not an accident that when it came down to the lead negotiation for the whole EU bloc, it was Ireland, at ministerial level, as well as senior civil servants, that played an important role in getting that agreement over the line. Civil society was constructive in recognising that was an historic moment. In essence, it was the first time the global north in particular said it was going to do this and set up a fund. We now have this kind of empty bucket. The past 12 months have involved detailed technical negotiations on how we can fill that bucket and do so fairly. Something coming out of that process should be rubber-stamped in the next two weeks but I will keep my fingers crossed as one can never be sure.

On the fund in particular, yesterday I spoke to one of the lead negotiators from the Department of Foreign Affairs, who emphasised it is extremely fraught. We could see that from following the technical negotiations . The previous climate finance targets were better in certain respects in terms of their specificity than the text that has been sent to COP. It is an achievement in terms of the political centre internationally, where the committee is, and how difficult it was to get agreement on even basic matters.

Certain advances have been made. There is a floor, for example. It is a kind of a prioritisation in the fund for least developed countries and states, which is important. There is a representation held on the governing body that should direct these funds for those same countries. They were two things that Ireland prioritised and brought to the table.

At the same time, if you look at the text, what is being sent to COP is a voluntary fund with no clear obligation to pay into, no specific amount of money that ought to be raised and no deadline for when that should be done. If the Irish Government put a plan like that in front of this committee or Parliament then people would, understandably, say that it is not convincing or good enough. That is not supposed to be a criticism of Ireland because that might be where the floor is at the moment but a lot of our partners are, understandably, very worried about a fund that is designed like that and whether it is going to be able to provide the finance needed at scale. That is where the national action comes in.

I will finish with the following because I am conscious of time. The COP process is really useful because it gives a yearly focusing of minds, of Governments, Parliaments, journalists and civil society on climate but the policies do not change in Dubai, Egypt or Brazil. They change in the Parliament here and other Parliaments around the world when you get home. It is easy to be frustrated at the COP process and the multilateral processes like that but what COP gives you is the floor. What COP gives you, is this is the position that pretty much every single country in the world can agree on by consensus. From Ireland to Iceland, to India, everyone signs on to this. What matters then is what happens on the Monday morning on the day we get back, and finding out how far above the floor can we go. That is what we are trying to do with this report being propositional. If what we get is a fund that sounds good but lacks detail, then we have to fill in the detail and our contribution, in Ireland, can be to do that with some specificity here.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

I will pick up on three things Ireland can do, which we have been asked. I am glad there is a transcript because these issues are technical in nature. The first ask is to make a pledge to the loss of damage fund and to its actual finance, not just for its administration or operation. We want EU members and Ireland to do vocally.

Second, and more technically, is a dedicated loss and damage section in the global stocktake or GST. I have mentioned the high-level ministerial dialogue and that is on what we are calling the new collective quantified goal or NCQG. The third ask is that in that high-level ministerial dialogue, there should be strong language on loss and damage..

It is quite right to say that this an opportunity. Oxfam has called it a rare opportunity because we have now got a whole new section of finance which could be, and should be, much more effective and does not repeat the mistakes of the past. Last year, we did not send anyone to COP from this part of the world. This year, we will send Lyndsay Walsh, who is an Irish person who works for Oxfam International. In my view, she is one of the leading global experts on loss and damage. She wrote our submission on the issue. When we have talked about it, and when our director in Africa talked about it being locally led, that is not to repeat the mistakes of the past. We must ensure that the funding is accessible to local communities for their local environments and their livelihoods from the start and that those principles are enshrined, even through the World Bank. While we might have been against the World Bank being the host of it at the start, for once their conditions look quite positive. We must now nail that down and make sure that this is there from the start. There will be a board meeting at least in the first month of next year, so time is running out.

I will share Ms Walsh's submission to the loss and damage committee with this committee afterwards because it is quite practical. The submission asks people to make sure this finance is given in the form of grants and not loans, which is the biggest mistake that has been made in the past. Any finance must also be accessible. Right throughout our systems, we help local communities to make applications for climate finance because it is not reaching them. We have statistics that show the climate finance has only reached 2% or 1.5% of local communities on the ground. There are things like just helping communities to understand the process of making applications and that kind of literacy area around applications.

These opaque processes and big multilateral funds have taken all the value out of climate finance in the past. Therefore, when we are talking about locally-led delivery of loss and damage then that is what we are talking about. It must be accessible and add value and it is not just a principle but a practical thing.

Mr. Michael O'Brien

My colleagues have covered at least three things that we would like to see for the loss and damage fund. I very much echo what they have prioritised.

I wish to emphasise that the existing mechanisms within the UNFCCC, like the green climate fund, have proven problematic mechanisms in terms of access for those who are most impacted by climate change. We want to see a general improvement in and reform of existing mechanisms in order that they really do meet the needs on the ground and that necessary finance does flow to the communities that are most impacted. For us, we want a mechanism within the new loss and damage fund that ensures speedy delivery of finance to communities that are being impacted more frequently by extreme climate events and that ensures the fund itself is governed in a way that ensures inclusivity and representation of the most impacted communities.

I thank our guests for coming in and for their work.

I will start with the Friends of the Earth and Mr. MacEvilly. The word "unabated" is very problematic because to me it means change without change and pretending that we can continue, and that we do not need to stop using fossil fuels and we do not need to leave them in the ground. This all relies on carbon capture and storage technology. What is the current status of that technology? Has it been proven to work at the scale necessary to abate greenhouse gas emissions from the use of fossil fuels?

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

My understanding is that it is either not commercially or technically viable or has not been proven at any scale. I thank the Deputy for his question.

It is important to remember that carbon capture and storage are not new. The technology has been discussed and there have been actual supports from other states for the best part of 20 years. I do not want to give the impression that support for new technologies is somehow inappropriate. That would obviously be ridiculous. The point is that a reliance on these technologies, while at the same time we have ongoing investments and expansion of fossil fuels, would be entirely contradictory and would undermine the entire process.

On the cap, the real risks around the use of abatement language is that we are concerned about it being a get of jail card or loophole that is being built into the text from the very get-go. The EU position is not ignorant to these concerns. It notes that abatement should be limited to "hard-to-abate sectors", so only used for certain processes. There are other relevant caveats as well. Our position is that there is no room for this from the get-go, and that such text or this type of formulation constitutes too many risks. Ultimately, it does seem likely, from what we have heard about the negotiating positions of other blocs, that there may be a strong commitment around renewables. and perhaps a call for the tripling of renewable capacity and the doubling of energy efficiency. We would be very concerned coming away from that if it was limited to that text without any reference to the fossil fuel side of things.

On a separate issue, my colleagues have provided really detailed information on recommendations for the loss and damage fund.

It would be appropriate if the committee could direct these issues at the Minister for Foreign Affairs or relevant Ministers, be it the Minister for Finance or the Minister for public expenditure. It is superb that we have engagement by this committee but it comes down to responsibilities. My understanding is that the Minister for Foreign Affairs will also be present at COP28 so it would be appropriate to direct these issues at his offices as well.

I accept that there are qualifications on the EU negotiating position but the fact that the EU, as one of the more ambitious global north blocks, is putting such a thing as its common position is a problem. Is Ireland bound to only argue for that EU common position or can it go further and say at COP28 that, for example, we need to completely phase out fossil fuels?

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

That is a good question. Formally, the EU negotiating position is what it is. There are limitations to how much further individual member states could go beyond the EU negotiators, who take responsibility. Part of this comes down to the procedural negotiation process of the UN itself, which I will not even attempt to go into. It is important to note that Ireland is a member of the High Ambition Coalition, which in no sense raised the issue of abated fossil fuels. Ireland's negotiators play an important role. It is not simply the case that we cannot engage on these issues while it is ultimately the EU negotiator who would take the lead. When it comes to the response to the global stocktake, and other relevant work streams on mitigation and just transition, there are opportunities for Ireland to make this case.

I want to ask a question of Ms Balfe. The figure she had in her opening statement was striking. She stated that investment managers registered in Ireland held "$6.2 billion in bonds and shares attributable to fossil fuels and agribusiness in the global south". Then she went on to make the point, in a strong, clear and accurate way, that it is completely by design that Ireland acts as a channel for global institutional investors to profit from their fossil fuel investments in the global south. She highlights a severe policy incoherence where Ireland, relatively speaking in the global north, speaks in progressive language on these issues but then acts as a conduit for billions of dollars to go to destroy our planet, for which the poorest people in the world pay the price. One aspect of that is the strong call to update the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act so that at least no public money is ending up in fossil fuels, which it currently is, as she highlights. Has Action Aid Ireland raised that with the Government or the Department? What kind of response has it got? Is the door open to amending that or is Action Aid Ireland getting pushback?

Ms Karol Balfe

On the Fossil Fuel Divestment Act, we have shared our entire findings and research with the relevant Ministers. The response was unclear as to what the Government will do. One of the things we are committed to doing is to bring forward this discussion and update the Act . We are working with Deputy Pringle's office to put that forward for further discussion in the Oireachtas. I hope there would not be much resistance to this because it is clear how and why the legislation could be strengthened.

The question of Ireland’s economic model is a more challenging one to address politically. This is something the Government has to look at and this is where a whole-of-government approach is fundamentally important. Engagement with the Department of Finance and the wider government is needed. This is an important issue of policy. We can make all of the pledges we want on climate finance and loss and damage but that is no good if we are undermining that through our economic model. The level of money flowing through Ireland is shocking. I hope the Government can look at this. Government will not change its overall economic model but it could specifically look at the impact on the global south of fossil fuels and agribusiness that are being channelled through Ireland. I hope this will merit discussion in light of the climate crisis we face.

It is not to say that the economic model should not be adjusted because highly reputable bodies have criticised Ireland's tax model for its devastating impact in undermining the ability of developing countries to fund public services and to address poverty and development. Now this research reveals the added dimension of climate change within that. It is not going to be politically easy but the level of crisis and the level of leadership that is required from Ireland to address the climate crisis is absolutely imperative.

I thank all the witnesses for their comprehensive statements and questions. I was interested around the tax on excess corporate profits and those international tools that are being used. I would like to pick the witnesses' brains not only on the idea of Ireland being a good neighbour but around wealth taxes, and the importance of collecting the data on wealth taxes. I know that my own party certainly repeatedly has tried to have wealth taxes costed by the Department but it has refused to do it. The Department has stated it does not actually collect the data. It was the same with the private jet tax. We were told that the Department does not monitor the data on the number of private jets coming in and we are reliant on NGOs to do that. How important is it at a national level that we collect data about those very high-wealth individuals and their impact on our emissions? There have been calls for the CSO, to do it and for it and the EPA to work together to come up with a comprehensive toolkit. I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

Given what we are seeing in the news with the current COP, where it is being hosted and the influence of fossil fuel companies on negotiations and policy measures, we recently amended our lobbying legislation in Ireland. Sinn Féin brought forward amendments trying to tackle the issue of fossil fuel lobbying. I would be interested to hear how important it would be at a national level to be a leader on curbing fossil fuel lobbying. I have seen it myself at an EU level, where we had ExxonMobil - and we know its influence on muddying the waters around climate change and whether or not it is real - refusing to come before committees and undermining the work of academics on what it had been doing for decades in climate denial but yet, still having free access to powerful individuals at an EU level. I would be interested to hear how important it is that we start to tackle fossil fuel lobbying.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

First, I will deal with the issue of wealth and emissions, which is really at the heart of the Oxfam report, Climate Inequality: A Planet for the 99%, and then move towards tax. The Senator might come back with those specific questions.

Oxfam internationally, and we as Oxfam Ireland, are quite open to the forms of taxation of wealth that would help in this area. What we have called for is a national conversation about this in Ireland, first of all, so that it does not become too politicised. It can be done either in a citizens' assembly forum or something very like that, in order that we can look at the forms of taxing wealth, how it can be inclusive and build alliances with other countries, certainly with regard how it is being done with in the European Union. Certainly, we all know that is high on the agenda. Of some of the forms of tax that have been mentioned today, a windfall tax is now essentially what is being looked at. It is a tax on excess profits, which is a situation that, year on year, continues to repeat itself, where there is excessive corporate tax. We have seen that since the Covid-19 pandemic.

Income tax is the classic way of reducing inequality and raising revenue. We talk about taxing wealth and specific wealth taxes but income tax, historically and empirically, is where we were able to manage societies much more successfully, I would argue. Therefore, in the climate emergency, that should also be the case. Then there are other forms of wealth tax that the committee is well aware of. Another one, which might be of interest, is specific consumption tax. That is also in that report, where those private jets, superyachts or excessive and conspicuous forms of consumption would be taxed.

In all of that analysis, and to go back to Thomas Piketty, who was mentioned, the classic way to do it is to empower Revenue. It is admired throughout our organisation for the local property tax, LPT, because it was an effective tax, and although we argued it could be more progressive, Revenue was empowered and it did a very good job with the model of collection and so on. Piketty would say that this is a job where we would empower Revenue to do a very good job, and it would act as a kind of reporting law for the whole of society so we would know how much wealth there is, we would have a real empirical base and we could start to work from there.

On the actual emissions that come from certain types of consumption, our report was done with the Stockholm Environment Institute, which was mentioned earlier. If that was being done in Ireland on, for example, specific aviation emissions, that would be a job for the EPA, which is the kind of organisation that would do that.

To come back to the point, we are kind of agnostic on how to do this. We build consensus and we have that national conversation, and we do not allow for political nit-picking and loopholes. That has been the problem with wealth taxes in the past in that they have become politicised. Piketty said there should be no exceptions and that loopholes are not allowed; instead, a bar is created and it is made very progressive above a certain level. We have advocated that it be above €5 million, which is the highest bar, so no wealth below that €5 million would be taxed and only wealth above that. However, we could still raise huge revenue above that threshold. Those are the key principles.

Mr. Conor O'Neill

Before dealing with the question on fossil fuels, I strongly endorse Mr. Murtagh's comments on wealth taxation. A number of us have been raising the question of economic justice and tax justice in Ireland for a number of years. That question of a national forum on more progressive and effective taxation of wealth would be a really big step to getting all of this in detail. It is not just coming from civil society. In terms of the data, there is a brilliant organisation, the EU Tax Observatory, which is EU-funded and is led by Gabriel Zucman, who is widely regarded as one of the leading experts in this field and has advanced the conversation in a big way. Specifically on wealth taxes, the EU Tax Observatory estimated that a co-ordinated wealth tax, just at EU level, could raise €200 billion every year. Again, that is the loss and damage contribution, with change.

The key word from our perspective in Christian Aid Ireland is “co-ordinated”. The kind of international tax negotiations that happen at the OECD and that happened at the UN two weeks ago is where the rubber meets the road, yet we still see states, including Ireland, retreat to this position of narrow self-interest. I understand why that is, and that it is extremely difficult to move away from that model, but if we try to do this just on a national basis, it is much less likely to be effective, particularly with wealth because capital is mobile, and especially so within the European Union. If the EU can matter, we have to co-ordinate in that respect.

We did a piece of work over the past number of years where we looked at the use of a specific tax structure, which we have called the single malt, by one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the country and in the world. It operates between Ireland and Malta, using the interplay and the design of the two tax codes in those two jurisdictions. The result of that structure is that the company pays an effective tax rate on billions of euro of pandemic super-profits not of 15%, that headline, lightning rod rate, not of 12.5%, but 4%. People often cast this as being a battle between Ireland and Malta for who gets the biggest slice of the pie, but a lot of that money is actually heading to a bank account of a massive pharmaceutical company, and that could be in the Cayman Islands or elsewhere. Deputy Murphy used the term “conduit”, which is a very good description of how it functions here.

If that model of aggressive competition and undermining other EU states is maintained, we are not going to get there, so the proposals that Mr. Murtagh mentioned in the Oxfam research are ones that we really endorse. The key thing is co-operation to make them effective.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I will come in briefly. I thank the Senator for the question. I have a few different points. On the issue of data, obviously the CSO and the EPA do great work in this area. I do not see why it would not be appropriate to task one of them. What would be interesting, given section 15 of the climate Act and the need for public bodies to align with and support the national transition objective, is whether more of an explicit obligation could be raised with these bodies, be they airport authorities or other public bodies, that it should really be a requirement for them to collect this data. That is just a thought.

The Senator asked a really excellent question on the broader issue of lobbying. I have information from colleagues in Friends of the Earth International that at COP27, more than 630 fossil fuel lobbyists registered to attend and the UAE had more fossil fuel lobbyists in its delegation than any other country. Members probably saw in yesterday’s news that there is an investigation which found the UAE was planning on using the COP to try to progress deals on the fossil fuel side with other states. This goes back to a previous question we really have to appreciate, namely, when the public hears information like that, how are they supposed to take the COP seriously? Some people might argue the extent to which it matters given it fundamentally comes back to national law and national interests, but the whole driving force behind national law is what happens at the COPs. As I said, if individuals are increasingly being tasked to take climate action we firmly believe is important from a climate justice perspective and from a quality of life perspective then they will be asked this, yet there is that contradiction at UN level, so it is not a free lunch. The other way in which it is not a free lunch is many indigenous groups, human rights defenders and other groups really struggle to get access to the COP. That is another comparison worth making and a real issue that should be addressed.

On fossil fuel lobbying in Ireland and what can be done on that side, I am interested in the Senator’s experience. I am not 100% sure of this, but perhaps the analysis and debate around access of lobbyists may be more progressed or more research may have been done on the EU side. I would be interested in how that could be brought back to the Irish context.

I will finish with three points. The first is that it is not simply the fossil fuel companies themselves that do this lobbying. In many cases in the Irish context it is very well known PR companies, consultancies and communication companies that undertake it. That is important to bear in mind with respect to how we might bring greater transparency in the Irish context. Also, it is not simply focused on the interest of fossil fuel companies themselves. What I mean by that is often, the lobbying that takes place is undertaken by industries or large energy users that are very dependent on fossil fuel use. Last of all, as a related side point, we should take into account that we equally need proper regulation of advertising when we look at the role of fossil fuel companies. We fundamentally believe the self-regulating model in place at the moment is not fit for purpose and we are interested in returning to the possible need for legislation on that front too.

I thank Mr. MacEvilly for that and thank Senator Boylan. Have the witnesses done any work on the advertising issue? It is something we discussed here about a year ago. It seems to be a fundamental challenge. Every psychological trick in the book is being used to persuade people to consume more and buy things they often do not need. Advertising tries to persuade them they need things like the large SUV or whatever. There is such a dearth of research in this area on how we might tackle it legislatively. The French have done some good work, as have the Dutch, but it would be really good to see research relevant to this country and our Constitution, because I think property rights come into this as it has to with intellectual property.

We need to move this forward somehow but we are really at a low base when it comes to taking it on.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I fully agree with the Chair. We do not have a proposal ready to go, but we would be very happy to come back to this and examine what legislation is possible next year. The other issue really worth considering is that there have been cases semi-regularly raised with the advertising authority where certain companies have put forward certain messages and we have been quite surprised that these cases have been rejected. That deserves much greater analysis and we hope it can provoke or provide a grounds for the types of authority we should have or could need. As the Cathaoirleach said, there are models in other member states we hope Ireland can progress.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

I agree with the Chair absolutely. It is obvious. Fossil fuel advertising is the tobacco advertising of the present. We are going to look back on this and ask why we did not ban this much more quickly. Last year, there was a European Citizens' Initiative, which is a petition-based initiative, that did not go forward. That might be a model to look at. In our report their are sources cited on how to tax specific consumption items, which is a bit different from those high-emitting luxury goods. If that was something this committee could do, we would certainly support it.

There is general agreement on the committee that it is something that needs to be tackled but there is a lack of good analysis and research out there.

Ms Karol Balfe

When looking at fossil fuel lobbyists or PR lobbyists, it is really important not to forget who is funding the industries and the level of funding. There is $3.2 trillion from the major international banks funding fossil fuels, so when we look at advertising, we also need to look at the root sources of where the money is coming from.

That is a very good point.

We have time if members want to ask further questions. I want to home in on aviation and maritime emissions a little. We hope to get good news in the next week or two from the COP and international agreement in that area. Ireland has indicated it wants to make progress there. The politics of this are really important because from an economic justice or equity point of view, private jets and superyachts need to be targeted. However, from an absolute emissions point of view, doing only that would be purely symbolic and would not achieve the cuts in emissions needed. Notwithstanding the lack of data, which has been alluded to, there is enough data to show that in absolute numbers not many private jets or superyachts come to Ireland compared to regular scheduled flights and shipping movements. To make a difference, if we are to tax emissions in that area, it is not just about the super-wealthy people, but about aviation and maritime transport generally. There is a political risk we focus on the super-wealthy and do not look at the sector more broadly. If we do not do the latter then it is just going to be pure tokenism. Is that fair?

Mr. Simon Murtagh

No, I do not think it is tokenism. We are talking about a huge chunk of emissions in the top 10% and top 1%.

Not the superyachts and the private jets.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

The top 10% for that matter-----

Of aviation emissions? I do not think they are anything like that. My problem is what if we focus on this and target these guys and then we do not achieve anything. We need to look at the sectors generally but it is politically very difficult to look at the sectors in a broad way and it is politically very easy to say let us target the private jets and superyachts, which we absolutely must do.

Some 6,000 jets a year come to this country alone.

Yes, which is tiny compared with the aviation movements-----

But it is still a significant number and it is-----

We should do it but if we focus on that, we will not achieve what we need to achieve, namely, radical cuts in greenhouse gas emissions.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

I will make a few practical points. On the shipping issue, it is important to get this right so that it is proportional because many developing countries depend on shipping for their trade in goods. If we were to have a broad rate of carbon tax applied to shipping, the problem could be that it would fall disproportionately on lower income countries. It should be done in a proportional way.

On the emissions of the richest 10% of people in the world, broadly speaking, what we now have in our report is an image of a champagne glass, where, as can be imagined, the stem is very narrow at the start, gets a bit broader in the middle, but not by much, and an extremely large amount of emissions comes from the richest 10% of people at the top. Within that, there is then an outsized contribution from the richest 1%. It is not really feasible to say we can tackle greenhouse gas emissions without looking at the richest 10% and the richest 1%. That is clear in our figures.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

In a sense, we would be avoiding the problem if we did not do this, so it is not populism in that sense. The work we mentioned by Piketty and Chancel in France goes back to this point. I mentioned this at the last committee meeting as well. Broadly, we are talking about a chunk of 40% or 50% in that 10%. It would be impossible to ignore that as an issue-----

Anyone who is flying is in the 10%.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

-----while also progressively taxing emissions throughout the wider areas of commerce mentioned.

Okay. I thank Mr. Murtagh.

Mr. Conor O'Neill

On flying, sometimes we can speak at cross-purposes here. Mr. Murtagh is right in what he said about the champagne flute shape. Some figures and studies cited in the report might be of interest. One thing that stands out is research from the New Economics Foundation, NEF, in the UK. It has said that in the UK, 15% of people take 70% of all flights and nearly half the population do not fly at all in a given year. The recognition of where we, as a country, including the people in this Chamber, sit in the global distribution of income is sometimes not exactly accurate. The NEF has proposed a levy on frequent flying. This would start at a rate of zero pounds for the first flight, £25 for the second flight, £60 for the third flight, etc., as a way to disincentivise flying and raise some revenue. These measures are important, but they must also be complemented by the type of work Mr. Murtagh and Senator Boylan are talking about. This is because while all the research we have done on tax shows the numbers matter, what is really important is the perception of fairness.

The Cathaoirleach mentioned trying to get popular buy-in to these types of initiatives. The sense of fairness is so important. If something like this can be done on flying, where we might say a normal person would take two, three or four flights annually and this type of tax is levied on those flights, it would be important and effective. It will be less effective, however, if there is a perception, accurate or not, and it is accurate, that a tiny number of people are able to fly as much as they want or that the taxes levied are so insignificant compared with the wealth of people in that tiny bracket. It will not be popularly supported. From the perspective of emissions reductions and revenue raising, the side of the fence the Deputy spoke about really matters, but what Oxfam has focused on also matters in the context of revenue raising, emissions reduction and fairness and public buy-in.

It is the fairness aspect I am alluding to. We would be ignoring fairness if we were to look just at the superwealthy. We must target them but the other 10% of people are incredibly wealthy and privileged by comparison with the rest. It is not fair to the rest if we are not looking at that 10% of people referred to who are taking 70% of flights. Politically, if we are just talking about private jets, we are not being fair.

We need to talk about flying in general, and if we do not, we are not going to achieve significant emissions reductions.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

When I last appeared before the committee, I mentioned the concept of guilt because eco-anxiety, as it is also called, is a big emotional question when we work with people. It is important to recognise, however, as I said the last time, that the emissions of ordinary people, whether working class or, for the most part, middle class, have not risen in consumption terms, and that is outlined in the report compiled by the Stockholm Institute. I have the figures for Ireland in particular, which I would be happy to share. Throughout the income groups below the 10%, emissions have dropped or plateaued in recent years, but that is not the case for the top 10% or the top 1% in particular.

That is an important point to make to constituents and, in my view, it is not being populist. It may be popular to tax the rich, and it is popular when we look at opinion polls, but I do not count that as populist-----

I never used the word "populist".

Mr. Simon Murtagh

I am just clarifying. Another point to make on the question of consumption and production emissions is that our report is only about consumption, and in a way the focus on luxury goods, huge holiday homes and private jets is a bit of a distraction in the sense that the richest people in society hold their wealth in financial assets, as we know, and those financial assets are not counted in the inequality statistics in this report, so the figure would really be much higher. We know that 1% of people in this country control more than 25% of all the wealth, that is, more than one quarter of the €1 trillion of our overall wealth-----

I fundamentally agree with those points, but I am referring purely to the aviation issue, in particular, and to maritime, to a certain extent.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

In that sense, it should be balanced. There was another Oxfam report this year, Carbon Billionaires, that looked at financial investments and showed that, when it comes to billionaires, they are twice as likely to invest in fossil fuels. That is the biggest problem we are talking about here, and we discussed it at length earlier. How can we stop those hugely damaging and polluting investments, which are destroying the world as we know it?

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

There is perhaps a risk of talking at cross-purposes. A climate justice approach is necessary and there probably is a risk of blame. We also have to, unfortunately, appreciate that for the majority of the public, really hard restrictions on flights would come as a real shock. There is, as always, education to be done on the role of aviation in emissions but that is just a basic point to start with. I agree we need to ultimately look at this from an equity perspective. We have to start with those who are most responsible but we also have to appreciate that a range of measures are available, such as looking at what flights are truly necessary. The committee is probably well aware of the steps other countries have taken to ban short-term or internal flights and the need to strongly subsidise train infrastructure at the same level, if not more, as aviation.

In an international context, an awful lot of this on the aviation and maritime side will have to be taken up at EU level, but nationally, it would be worth looking at the degree of fossil fuel subsidies in the aviation sector in Ireland. I think I am right that the largest subsidy is for aviation fuel, which is something worth considering. Moreover, as we all know, to go back to the financial justice questions we were discussing earlier, many of the largest aircraft leasing companies are based in Ireland, and that is also relevant and perhaps worth looking at.

Lastly, Transport and Environment, the EU Brussels-based think-tank, has done excellent work in the following area. There is a risk, as we have seen in other sectors, of prioritising the likes of biofuels, which are, of course, going to be needed. In the near term, however, as the Chairman said, we need stronger obligations than the eventual, slow, gradual, increasing use of biofuels.

On the aviation emissions, against the argument to levy aviation tax and a tax on maritime fuel as well is that we are an island. The context is very different here to that of member states across Europe and that all has to be part of the discussion. Did other members wish to speak?

This is slightly relevant but, because we have the time, I will ask the panel if it has any views on it. Data centres in Ireland is a big conversation and I will not go back there. I refer to AI and the amount of energy that is required for AI computer services. Should we be regulating what they are doing? In Ireland, should we have greater oversight of what the data centres are doing here? It is tangentially related to emissions. There is a too binary debate about whether data centres are good or bad, but we do not seem to have any oversight at a national level as to what the data centres are doing here. We do not even know who owns the data centres. One has to go to the individual web companies to find out how many data centres they say they have here. Is there a need for Ireland to show leadership on that oversight of what data centres are here, where they are doing, what is essential and what is non-essential work? Given that AI is increasing and that will probably be based here as well because we have got all the data centres, there is oversight of that computer technology as well, what is valuable to society, and what is only either pushing consumption through real-time bidding or all of that other stuff. It is a very loose question. I am sorry. I am only exploiting the fact that we have a bit of time.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

I thank the Senator for the question. I would love an extensive meeting all on the role of large energy users like data centres.

The short answer to the Senator's question is, "Yes". There is need for much greater regulation and transparency. Where this issue comes up initially is in this notion, which has to be pushed back on very strongly, that all data is necessary, and particularly this argument, which drives me and colleagues crazy, that you use your phone or you have a computer and, therefore, you cannot comment on, critique and point out the need for further regulation on data centres, which is a completely ridiculous argument. The Senator's point is fundamentally right that we have to much better interrogate what are data centres used for and what type of data is necessary. Of course, the concern here is that much of the data is simply around tracking or, to bring it back to the consumption, around selling us things.

Or Amazon Web Services making it more efficient to take fossil fuels out of the ground and move around the world as well.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

Absolutely. On the energy side of things specifically, which probably merits a discussion in itself, there is a requirement, and not necessarily commitments but discussion in Government circles, around the need for data centres to essentially match their output to levels of renewable generation and also around demand flexibility. Some of that is appropriate and possible, but we have to be absolutely clear - UCC's MaREI has excellent research in this area - the level of demand that is projected from data centres is simply not tenable and not consistent with our carbon budgets. It is extremely unclear to me, even with matching of renewable generation, whether it could still be in accordance with those climate commitments.

To conclude, the other issue is what generation for these data centres is new and additional. One could put in this requirement - this has been put forward in the Amazon proposed development - for a corporate power purchase agreement and, essentially, where such CPPAs are put in place, ask is there a renewable generation that is being taken up and would that otherwise by used to decarbonise the Irish energy system more nationally.

That issue needs much greater analysis.

There is a real issue around speculative data centre connections. Of those that are being put forward, we are still unclear about which ones are realistic, which have put forward planning permission, and why clear climate plans are not put forward as part of those developments. I had an additional point that I have now forgotten.

I will bring it back to COP28. Is there something there in respect of data centres and the international picture? I do not know. Is the challenge of data centres, from a climate point of view, being discussed at international level? We are talking about it nationally. It is a very important conversation but, surely, other countries are hosting a lot of data centres. Is that discussion happening at all? The other side of it is some countries are more attractive for data centre developers, as Ireland is for a few reasons, including our climate and where we are with respect to international data cables. We are in the EU but on the edge of it. With respect to COP28, is there serious international discussion about data and how it should be managed and regulated?

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

In terms of the COP negotiations, the short answer is probably not. We have to remember, however, and this perhaps often gets lost in the media commentary, the reason we are interested in the data centre issue is the demand and pressure it is putting on our energy system and climate targets. Other sectors right across the world are also raising this demand issue and are essentially risking a lock-in to carbon emissions. It is not as if we are looking for an exclusive focus on data centres.

On the issue of real-time bidding, which is an international issue, we are talking about the emissions of a small- to medium-sized country purely on those real-time bidding advertisements that are tracking or engaged in surveillance of personal data. A ridiculously tiny percentage of the adverts that bid to show an individual an advert actually get to show that person an ad. It is a huge carbon footprint as well as the issue of energy demand in Ireland. The model is an international problem.

It is not on the agenda of COP28, as far as we know.

Data centres are such a significant component of overall energy demand. We are looking at 30% whereas it is an average of 2% across other European countries. We get a disproportionately much higher concentration here. Whether it is because of the weather or the regulatory system, we place no-----

The KPMG report referenced tax breaks.

That is probably more reflective of why we have them. There is not even a discussion about not only what kind of data they are collecting but how they are collecting it. My understanding is, depending even on the type of computer language or hardware used in the data centre, the energy requirement could be reduced by 30%, 40% or 50%. Essentially, no restrictions are being placed on them other than not having them in Dublin, which is only a grid issue rather than an overall energy user or emissions issue.

Mr. Jerry MacEvilly

Absolutely. In this case, we have to remember that Ireland is an outlier. We strongly push back on this idea that Ireland is ideally suited when, to begin with, it puts such extreme pressure on our electricity system. In addition, and this is the other issue I wanted to touch on, there are real risks of data centres essentially locking in fossil fuel use, whether that is through use of on-site generation or additional requirements for long-term gas generation. To bring it back to the international perspective, it is quite interesting that many of these companies have quite strong, progressive, global decarbonisation commitments. What is quite telling and quite frustrating is that, in our view, they are not in reality properly applied in Ireland.

For example, where are the commitments to large-scale use of solar power and energy efficiency measures on their sites? That is something we should consider.

Mr. Simon Murtagh

On the question of data centres and energy, last week, Christian Aid and Oxfam met a delegation from the Cerrejón mine in Colombia. Members from all sides in the House were also present. Those communities have been struggling for more than ten years. They have been absolutely devastated by the biggest open-cast mine in Latin America. It produces unbelievable pollution. I have read the child mortality statistics associated with that issue. The ESB plant at Moneypoint is importing coal from Cerrejón. As I understand it, this is a form of back-up fuel because demand is so high. It was the Stop Blood Coal movement that alerted us all to that issue in the first place. That cannot be left out in the analysis.

The argument is that, if the data centres were not in Ireland, Moneypoint might not be running at all and would not be getting coal from these places. It is fair to call what is happening in these places human rights crimes. I thank Mr. Murtagh for that. There are no other questions from members so we will-----

Mr. Conor O'Neill

If we are going to close the session, may I briefly thank the committee again for its engagement on this? It is not a given that there would be engagement with this level of detail hours before COP is due to kick off. We genuinely believe that it mattered when the committee weighed in strongly last year and asked the Government to push the issue of loss and damage funding and to act on it. It was no accident that Ireland then played a key role in the negotiations. If it were useful, in either a formal committee session or in a meeting with members individually or as a group, we would be really happy to come back after the COP negotiations close to discuss what was or was not agreed on loss and damage funding and fossil fuels and to try to make our case as to what the measures agreed internationally mean for Ireland. I believe everyone would make themselves available if time were to be given at some point.

I thank Mr. O'Neill for that. It is a very worthwhile suggestion. We would probably struggle to fit it in before Christmas as there are only a few weeks left but let us keep it in mind for early in the new year. It would be very useful to have a debrief on COP28, setting us up for the following year.

This meeting has been very informative. There are a few very immediate asks of the Government and the delegation who are travelling, particularly the two Ministers, Deputy Ryan and the Tánaiste. In our private session this afternoon, we will discuss those asks and relaying them immediately to the Ministers. I hope they will take those issues to the very front of negotiations and make progress.

I sincerely thank all those who have come to the committee room this afternoon and those who have joined remotely. We have had guests speaking to us from Africa and we really appreciate the contributions of those who have joined us remotely. It has certainly been a very interesting and engaging session. These matters are very urgent and, as a committee, we are on the same page and understand that we have to act and do what we can. I thank the witnesses for acknowledging the work of the committee last year. We would like to be as effective every year. With that, I will adjourn the meeting until our private session at 3.30 p.m. today.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.29 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 December 2023.
Top
Share