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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 15

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

Today's agenda deals with the scrutiny of two EU documents, namely COM (2003) 18 and COM (2003) 32 on the control of high activity sealed radioactive sources and the principles and safety on nuclear installations and radioactive wastes, respectively.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Renee Dempsey and Mr. David Hanlon from the Department, as well as Mr. Chris Hone from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. We will hear first from Ms Dempsey before taking questions from members. I wish to draw the officials' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Renee Dempsey

We are very happy to attend the meeting and look forward to an interesting discussion. I am speaking about the proposed EU Council directive on the control of high activity sealed radioactive sources. That is the current title but we believe that the title may be expanded somewhat to read: Council directive on control of high activity sealed radioactive sources and orphan sources. If the members of the committee wish to query that, we would be delighted to explain the reasons. In our view, that is a proper, wider name.

This proposal for a Council directive is aimed at strengthening the control by the competent national authority of those sealed radioactive sources holding the greatest risk. It also sets out the responsibilities of holders of such sources. A sealed radioactive source is a source whose structure is such as to prevent, under normal conditions of use, any dispersion of the radioactive substances into the environment.

Sealed radioactive sources are used throughout the world for a wide variety of applications, notably in medicine, industry and research. The risks posed by such sources vary widely depending on their activity, the contained radio nuclides, the purpose for which used, the construction, etc.

Sealed sources can be categorised as those which are currently in use, those which are no longer in use and in storage, and those which are called orphan sources. Sealed sources which are either in use in Ireland or disused are regulated by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland having regard to the requirements of EU Council Directive 96/29 EURATOM of 13 May 1996 which lays down basic safety standards for the protection of the health of workers and the general public against dangers arising from ionising radiation. In Ireland, these requirements are enshrined in Irish law under the Radiological Protection Act, 1991 (Ionising Radiation) Order 2000 (SI 125 of 2000).

Orphan sources are those which were never subject to regulatory control or which were subject to regulatory control but have been abandoned, lost, misplaced or stolen and, as such, are no longer subject to control. The risks associated with inadequate control of sealed sources are many. For example, disused sources stored in the user's premises may become lost, stolen or misplaced, thus falling into the "orphan" category; sealed sources may leak and thus increase the radiological content, and orphan sources can cause serious injury, including death to workers and members of the public who may not be aware of their existence or of the radiation hazard.

There have been a number of accidents worldwide, some of which have been fatal, arising from inadequately controlled radiation sources. While there have been no fatal accidents in EU states, the European Commission acknowledges the possibility of accidents occurring because of the mismanagement of sealed sources. An area of particular concern to the Commission is the increasing incidence of the findings of radioactivity in scrap metal in the European Union. Such an incident occurred in Ireland in 1994 when what could now be described as an orphan source was melted down by Irish Steel at its premises in Cork. These concerns, and the imminent expansion of the EU through the accession of new states, many of which have large numbers of disused and orphaned sources, have prompted the Commission to bring forward these proposals.

The proposals state that prior authorisation is required from the member state's authority for any practice involving a high activity sealed source. This is under Article 3. Before issuing such an authorisation, the member state's authority must ensure that arrangements, plus financial provision, have been made for the safe management of the sources when they become disused. Again, this is under Article 3. The authorisation granted must, inter alia, set out the holder’s responsibilities, staff competencies and training, work procedures to be followed, the requirements for emergency procedures, and adequate management of the disused sources, including agreements on the transfer of the disused sources to a supplier or to a recognised installation. Again, this is under Article 3.

The holder would be required to keep records of the sources in his possession, their location and transfer which must be available for inspection by the national competent authority. This is under Article 5. The holder must also regularly check the integrity of the source, check that it is in situ at place of use or storage, and notify the competent authority immediately of the loss, theft and damage of the source. Again, this is under Article 5.

Manufacturers are required to identify each source by a unique number. This is under Article 7. Member states must encourage a situation whereby management and workers at installations where orphan sources are most likely to be found, such as in metal scrap yards or customs points, are advised, inter alia, on the visual detection of sources and their containers and are informed of action to be taken if a source is detected. This is under Article 8.

Member states must also ensure the establishment of a system of guarantee for damage to human health caused by high activity sources, as well as for the costs of intervention. This would also address a situation where the holder of the source cannot be identified or is found to be insolvent. This is covered by Article 11.

The implications of this for Ireland are that, at present, under existing Irish law, the custody, use, storage, transfer or disposal of all radiation sources other than very small exempted sources, such as in individual smoke detectors, is prohibited except under a licence from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. These licences have particular conditions attached relating to the safe use of sealed sources and their proper management when they become disused. In Ireland, there are some 600 disused sources which are stored on the premises of the licence holder in accordance with conditions laid down in the licence granted by the RPII.

Licences are now granted by the RPII if the applicant can provide a written guarantee from the supplier of the source that it will accept back the source when it is no longer required. In cases where the supplier is no longer trading, the holder of the source must continue to hold a licence for the custody of the source.

The proposed directive, however, incorporates some additional requirements which are not included in the RPII's licensing requirements. These are the requirement to provide financially for the management of disused sources and the requirement on holders of disused sources which cannot be returned to the supplier to send them to a recognised installation for long-term storage or disposal. In practice this would require Ireland to establish a dedicated storage facility for such sources. Other requirements are to establish controls, including radiation detection systems, at establishments where orphan sources are most likely to appear, such as metal scrap yards or major air and seaports, and to establish a system of guarantees for damage to human health as well as for the cost of intervention.

On the matter of disposal of disused sealed sources, an option increasingly being suggested by expert bodies such as the International Atomic Energy Agency, is that the sources be placed in boreholes in the ground which are then backfilled with concrete. The boreholes would be typically 15 centimetres in diameter and 100 to 300 metres deep. The attraction of this option is that there is no requirement for ongoing security surveillance. As well as this, unlike spent nuclear fuel which remains radioactive for hundreds of thousands of years, most sealed sources will decay to background levels in a few hundred years, that is, over a timescale in which source containment integrity and geological stability can be assured with a high degree of confidence.

That concludes my presentation on the proposed directive.

I welcome the presentation and support the proposals. Is there a concern that some of these sealed containers, if stolen, could be used in a dirty bomb? People have raised the question of the possibility of a terrorist bomb which would create a radioactive dust cloud. Is that a concern?

If we know there are 600 disused sealed sources in Ireland, have we an indication of the number of orphan sources? Do we know how many have gone missing over time and which are not included in the list of 600?

Ms Dempsey

Perhaps I could pass that to Mr. Chris Hone, who is a representative of the RPII, the licensing authority, and would have the details.

Mr. Chris Hone

The answer to the first question is "yes", there is a concern that some of the disused sources might be potentially of interest to terrorists. Some of them are so radioactive that terrorists would get a fatal dose of radiation, but that might not concern the suicide types unduly. It is a concern and is one of the reasons we have since September 11 increased our level of surveillance of security arrangements in hospitals and factories which hold such sources. It is one of the concerns the directive addresses.

On the second question about orphan sources, I am glad to say there is only a very small number here and mostly in the form of objects picked up by a screening system Irish Steel installed following the accident in 1994. It installed portal monitors which detect radioactivity in incoming scrap, and a small number - fewer than a dozen - of not very radioactive items have been picked up and are held in secure storage in Haulbowline. At most one or two other sources have been found and of which other licensees have agreed to take custody. We are pleased to say our own system of licensing and surveillance has detected many orphan sources. At present we can say with a high degree of confidence that there is not a large number of sources, if any at all, that we do not know about. The concern is that if sources that are currently disused should escape from regulatory control they would become orphan sources.

Is there similar monitoring in Hammond Lane, a significant scrap metal yard in Dublin of which I am aware?

Mr. Hone says that since Irish Steel introduced that screening system it has found a dozen instances——

Mr. Hone

I could give Deputy Ryan the exact figure but it is not more than that. This would be in a huge number of consignments of scrap. What items are we talking about? For example, there was a practice some years ago of manufacturing lightning conductors which incorporate a radioactive source. They were shown to offer no advantage over the standard Faraday rod type lightning conductor and we do not licence them. One or two of these items were picked up by the Irish Steel scrap detection system. The other sources picked up were not, strictly speaking, sealed sources. In most cases they were radioactive crud which deposits on pipe work used in the oil industry.

As far as I am aware Hammond Lane has not installed a screening system. In the future it would be obliged to do so.

I join in welcoming the representatives of the Department and the RPII to the meeting.

May we hear some examples of the type of material in the 600 disused sealed sources which are currently stored? I am surprised at Mr. Hone's response to Deputy Ryan's question on this. I was under the impression that much of this was fairly low level material. I am surprised to hear there is a degree of radioactivity among the 600 sealed sources that would be of such strength that only a terrorist on a suicide mission would endanger himself by going near it. I would like to hear more about disused sources.

May we have some examples of what is anticipated in the orphan sources?

I note in the documentation given to members that one of the requirements placed on Ireland by the EU directive now being discussed will be the establishment of a dedicated storage facility for the sources. By this I presume is meant some kind of a dump or waste storage facility, which the documentation goes on to describe. Has thought been given to where such a facility might be located or how a location for such a facility might be identified? Wherever such a facility is to be located I am not sure those who will, inevitably, object to it will be comforted by the fact that the material will revert to background status after only a few hundred years as distinct from several thousand years in the more celebrated cases about which we often talk.

We are discussing an EU directive which we all support. The regulatory regime being put in place is prompted by the prospect of new EU member states and we support the obligations being put on member states. However, we must look at what is being proposed with our eyes open. It is clear that what is being proposed is the establishment of a radioactive dump of some kind in Ireland. Given the fuss we have created about radioactive dumps being established in other jurisdictions I cannot imagine in whose back yard this will be put. I would like to hear more about the thought given in the Department and in the RPII to where this facility is to be located and how it is to be established.

Mr. Hone

Only a very small number of the 600 sources would be classified as high activity within the definition in the proposed directive.

What type of material would that be and what would be the percentage?

Mr. Hone

There are three companies in Ireland which use a large number of very high activity sources. Those companies use them for sterilising medical products. There is one in Dublin, one in Westport and one in Donegal. Between the three they have, approximately, 900 high activity sources in the form of pencils and each of those sources is classified on its own as a high activity source. In other locations there are 93 other sources which would be classified as high activity in accordance with the directive. These numbers change from day to day because sources are imported and exported into and out of the country, particularly by industrial radiography companies which use them for non-destructive testing of wells, aircraft structures and so on.

Does that answer Deputy Gilmore's first question? Could Deputy Gilmore remind me of his concern about orphan sources?

Deputy Gilmore asked for some examples.

Will Mr. Hone also give some examples of the first question?

Mr. Hone

Approximately 900 sources are used in industrial irradiators which are used to irradiate medical products. They are kept under a very high degree of surveillance according to very strict licence conditions and are inspected by us regularly. The next category down would be the sources used for industrial radiography and also for irradiating blood products. The blood bank in Dublin has one and other laboratories also have them. They are used, again, for medical purposes. The next category is control gauge sources, which are the most frequently encountered. They are used for measuring flow rates and levels in industrial processes such as cement making. Guinness's brewery and other industrial enterprises use them.

Mr. Hone has put me off my pint.

Next time I get a warm pint I will know what caused it.

Mr. Hone

There are also medical sources used in radiotherapy by cancer hospitals. Those are the typical uses.

Orphan sources are being detected in incoming consignments of scrap. If a company, which uses a radioactive source in the form of a control gauge as part of an industrial process, shuts up shop and its premises are bought by another company which does not need the control gauge, there is a risk that the new company will, inadvertently, inherit it. We minimise that risk by obliging companies that have disused sources on their premises to continue to hold a licence for them so they remain subject to licensed conditions and are continuously subject to inspection. In general, we would like to see all these disused sources brought to a centralised store or disposal facility. It is easier to control if one only has to keep one premises under surveillance.

On the subject of a dedicated storage facility, we expect widespread opposition in that regard. We have been, in conjunction with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, looking at possible sites such as ones owned by the Department of Defence and one commercial company has expressed interest in converting its current high security storage building into a waste store.

I, too, welcome the delegation to the meeting. Some of the questions I intended asking have already been dealt with. I am sure the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland operates to international standards. Mr. Hone mentioned there are some 600 disused sealed sources at various locations around the country. Are the environmental sections and emergency agencies within various local authorities aware of their location? It is important they are updated on any activity nationwide.

There are many old disused landfill sites around the country. There has been greater scrutiny in recent times when closing down landfill sites. Some of them, perhaps those ten, 20 or more years old, were merely covered with clay, were never monitored and we are not aware of the type of material disposed there. I have heard that asbestos from roofs and old water pipes was often dumped at such sites. It is important, taking into account current information on this, that we revisit some of those old landfill sites, many of which contain a timebomb waiting to explode. The public is gravely concerned about the manner in which old landfill sites were closed.

Mr. Hone

As to who knows the location of sealed sources, either in use or disused, some of them are held by county councils who use them as moisture gauges in the road manufacturing process so that they would be ipso facto in the public domain. Companies who own these are not obliged to tell public bodies of their radioactive sources with one important exception. It is a licence condition that the holder of any radioactive source, be it sealed or unsealed, is obliged to tell the local fire authority that he or she holds radioactive sources on their premises and is obliged to provide the chief fire officer with a description of the source, the nature of its use, and hazards that might arise if the source were involved in a fire or other incident. Everyone who uses licensable radioactive material is beholden to that obligation.

On landfill sites, disposal of sealed sources in landfills is prohibited under our licensing scheme. One or two sources have inadvertently ended up in landfill. They have been disposed of by accident and companies have been prosecuted in that regard. We are satisfied no hazard exists because the source has been buried under a great deal of earth thereby ensuring no external radiation is detectable. The sources involved are of such a nature that they would not leak over its lifetime. Obviously, it is not desirable this should happen and we have taken seriously the few instances where it has happened and prosecuted those involved.

Mr. Hone mentioned that discussions on central storage were taking place with a commercial source. A national report compiled some 20 years ago dealt with the issue of toxic waste incineration. Is the commercial source involved in waste management?

Mr. Hone

I do not think so. It is more an issue of security than one of waste management. The idea is that the sources could be retrieved from the store at a future date if a better or longer term option became available.

Have any units been disposed of outside the country?

Mr. Hone

Yes. There are two strands involved. We do not provide a licence for a source coming into the country unless it can be re-exported when no longer in use. For example, St. Luke's Hospital, under that type of return ticket system, disposed of a number of radium sources as part of a deal when supplied with newer safer materials. One has to accept that some of the material may have ended up in Sellafield.

On storage and waste management facilities, we are almost unique in the European Union in not having such a facility.

Will the RPII identify the locations? What timescale is involved and what will be the process? Will the RPII identify the locations being looked at?

Mr. Hone

We will identify the locations we are considering. If it is determined by us and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that one of the locations is potentially suitable then it will go to the planning process and the matter will be up for public discussion.

Ms Dempsey

Mr. Hone has already flagged that this will be, when we come to that point, a very difficult and sensitive issue to manage. The options for exporting our waste have many ramifications not least the thought of us supporting Sellafield would be seen as anathema in Irish minds. It is intractable enough to find a site that will meet the criteria we have in mind, such as remoteness from immediate urban densities and so on while at the same time being highly accessible for security purposes and for surveillance and management.

The size of the site will not be particularly large. We are not talking about a massive industrial building; we are looking for a small unit which would require very high design specifications. Another matter exercising us is that we would have a facility, assuming we can jump the very difficult hurdles, that would also provide for improvements in technology and safety as they developed thereby heightening standards. We want to ensure we are not forever languishing at a low level of standards. If standards improve we would want to ensure any facility that might exist would match those improvements and would be invested in an ongoing manner. The process, when a site, or couple of sites are identified, will go through the normal democratic process. The Minister will be advised of the options available. Planning approvals and all the usual public consultations will have to take place.

On the point of the timescale involved, it is our ambition for safety and security reasons, to process this extremely quickly. We have to recognise, respect and be prepared fully to engage in the timescale that may be needed to debate, discuss and get a proper conclusion on the matter. Groups such as the International Atomic Energy Agency regularly ask us about these matters. Our answer must be that we are a democracy and must follow a democratic process and that once we have come to the point where something has been identified then we have to engage in all of the necessary steps. These steps take whatever time they take. In these matters it is impossible to dictate or to make any assumptions.

How long will it be before getting to the first step of bringing the bad news to the Minister?

Ms Dempsey

I have not recently put any kind of time limit on it. Our earlier ambition was to complete the analyses by the end of the current year. Regularly, the RPII in its annual report exhorts us to process and complete this matter. For reasons of resource among others, it will not be possible to conclude it by the end of this year but our ambition is to put some proposals to the Minister within the first quarter of next year. However, there are steps to be followed and analyses must be made. Even once a site is identified, geology and other matters have to be identified very carefully because no waste disposal facility can be treated lightly or casually. There are additional and extra precautionary steps that we would want to take in identifying a site before proposing it.

Ms Dempsey can rest assured that Deputy Gilmore will give his full support in that task.

The Commission appears to be concerned about the findings in the report of the increasing incidence of radioactivity in scrap metal. May we have some elaboration on the details of that?

Mr. Hone

The main risk is associated with gauge sources. These are sources that are incorporated into a gauge which is then bolted to the side of pipe work. What happens is that inadvertently the piece of pipe work is scrapped with the gauge still attached. The other type of incident which has occurred, fortunately not in Europe but it has happened abroad, - in Brazil, Guyana, Thailand and a number of other countries - is where a disused medical source has been scrapped by people who are unaware of the hazards associated with the source. In some cases people have received fatal doses. That is the main route whereby radioactive scrap appears. This proposal will provide for scrap to be monitored.

One of our concerns is probably not with a legitimate source in Ireland giving rise to an incident but with a consignment of contaminated scrap being imported into the country. The risk of this happening is now much lower in so far as Irish ISPAT has closed - that is the plus side to that sorry story. However, there is a possibility that one of the big scrap merchants, such as Hammond Lane which sometimes imports scrap, could inadvertently bring in a consignment of scrap which contained a radioactive source.

Is it not monitored at point of entry?

Mr. Hone

It is not. It is one of the requirements of the directive that monitoring systems will have to be put in place at points of entry; at ports, airports and land border crossings.

We will move on to the second document if members are happy with that.

Ms Dempsey

Thank you Chairman. The proposals from the European Commission in document COM (2003) 32 Final comprise two elements. This is what we call, generically, the nuclear safety package and there are two strands to it.

It is a proposed Council directive setting out the basic obligations and general principles on the safety of nuclear installations and a proposed Council directive on the management of spent nuclear fuel and radioactive waste. The committee will detect a certain tie-in on the waste issue when I go through this later.

Collectively, the two proposals represent what is commonly known as the Commission's proposal for a nuclear safety package. The proposed directive in regard to the safety of nuclear installations sets out the basic obligations and general principles on their safety and is aimed at developing a Community approach to nuclear safety so as to ensure a higher level of harmonisation in the setting of standards for them.

Following on the Chernobyl incident in 1986, the European Union began to concern itself with the safety of nuclear installations in the central and eastern European countries and the republics of the former Soviet Union. The work carried out in the Community framework in order to bring nuclear installations in the candidate countries up to a high level of safety allowed a European perspective to emerge in this context. This perspective, developed for the candidate countries, provided part of the impetus for the development of a Community wide approach to safety standards in nuclear installations.

The proposed directive involves the development of European safety standards which would take account of the work of the International Atomic Energy Agency in the field of nuclear safety. These standards would be drawn up by the Commission after obtaining the opinion of a group of technical experts drawn from member states. The proposed directive requires the involvement of a safety authority in member states to supervise and regulate safety in nuclear installations.

Operators of nuclear installations will be required to operate in accordance with the common safety standards applicable to them and with regulations laid down by their national safety authority. Member states will be required to ensure that adequate financial resources are available to support the safety of nuclear installations and that financial resources are also available to cover decommissioning costs.

The proposed directive provides for the establishment of a Community system whereby the Commission will verify the expertise of the national safety authority and the manner in which it carries out its tasks. Member states will be obliged to propose experts to be called upon by the Commission to assist it in independently verifying the member states safety authority. They will also be obliged to transmit reports on the measures taken to meet their obligations and on the state of safety of installationsunder their supervision. These reports will be examined by member states and the Commission in the framework of a peer review mechanism.

Ireland's position on this directive is that from our perspective, while the directive has a pro-nuclear undercurrent in that it is being proposed on the basis of keeping the nuclear option open, it is also to be welcomed in that it should lead to a levelling up in safety standards especially in the light of the forthcoming enlargement of the European Union. Ireland will actively participate in the examination and development of the proposals in the Council working group and Council in order to ensure that the most stringent safety regime is implemented.

The second element of the nuclear safety package is the proposed directive on the management of spent nuclear fuel and radioactive waste. The aim of this proposal is to find acceptable solutions to the management of radioactive waste, and to do this in a way that protects human health and the environment now and in the future.

The use of nuclear energy to generate electricity results in the production of spent nuclear fuel and radioactive waste. Other activities giving rise to such waste are: nuclear electricity generation, including back end nuclear fuel-cycle activities and decommissioning of nuclear facilities; the operation of research reactors; the use of radiation and radioactive materials in medicine, agriculture, industry and research; and the processing of material containing naturally occurring radioactivity.

The Commission's proposals point out that in total, about 40,000 m3 of radioactive waste are produced per year in the European Union as a whole, the majority originating from activities associated with nuclear energy generation. The disposal of the less hazardous waste is, according to the Commission, only practised in five European Union states with active nuclear power programmes, France, UK, Finland, Sweden and Spain. Other states with nuclear energy store their waste in a national depot which requires close supervision. These states generally store waste in the form of spent fuel at the reactor sites.

In the case of the more hazardous waste, all accumulations are being stored in surface or near-surface facilities, pending the availability of a more permanent solution. No country in the world has yet implemented disposal of these wastes and the degree of progress towards this permanent solution varies considerably from country to country. In the meantime, of course, build up of the waste continues. On the more hazardous waste, the Commission is of the opinion that disposal by isolation, deep in stable geological formations, is the most suitable management option.

The Commission is concerned about the delay in a number of member states in the identification and authorising of suitable disposal sites, in particular for deep geological disposal. It feels that this delay could be interpreted as a passing on to future generations the responsibility for disposing of radioactive wastes. It may also increase the risk of accidents or terrorist attacks.

In those candidate countries operating Russian-designed nuclear power plants and research reactors, spent fuel management has become a crucial issue in the past decade because shipments back to Russia for reprocessing or storage are no longer possible. As a matter of urgency, these countries had to construct temporary storage facilities for their spent fuel. Little, if any, progress has been made regarding implementation of programmes for longer-term management and ultimate disposal of this spent fuel.

Basically the Commission's proposal is for a directive to require member states to ensure that the production of radioactive waste is kept to the minimum practicable. The proposals require member states to establish a clearly defined programme for radioactive waste management. The programme is to cover all radioactive waste under its jurisdiction and includes spent fuel not subject to reprocessing contracts. The proposals require that where there is no alternative to disposal of the waste, member states' waste management programmes must include decisions to authorise by 2008 the development of disposal sites. This date could be extended in cases involving geological disposal and, of course, the proposal is the Commission's proposal: the date will undoubtedly be a point of debate and some negotiation in the working party.

While the high-level waste and long-lived waste is to be disposed of in a geological repository, authorisation for operation of the facility must be granted no later than 2018. For low-level and short-lived waste where it is not being disposed of with the high-level waste, the member state must authorise the operation of the disposal facility by no later than 2013. Again, the date will be a matter for negotiation. Surface or near surface storage of spent fuel that is not to be reprocessed is not regarded under the proposals as a suitable or a sustainable alternative to disposal. The member state's programme may include transfer of the waste to another member state or third country where the facilities meet standards required of the state of origin of the waste. Member states are required to report to the Commission every three years on the status of the management of radioactive waste and spent fuel, and progress towards compliance with this directive.

Ireland's position on this matter is that there are a number of disused radioactive sources stored in different locations in the country. Under this proposal Ireland will be obliged to develop a programme for the management of these sources and future waste arisings. Unless these sources and waste arisings can be exported this will include the development of an appropriate disposal site. On the more hazardous waste, Ireland is not convinced that geological disposal without the intention of retrieval, as suggested in the proposed directive, is the best solution. Obviously we accept that surface or near-surface storage of spent nuclear fuel is not desirable.

I do not know whether Ms Dempsey departed from her script or we are just missing a page.

Ms Dempsey

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

Apart from the issue we discussed earlier our involvement with the issue of nuclear waste up to now has related to the reprocessing of materials in Sellafield, storage of waste, etc. I wonder where this will leave us in that regard. At the end of Ms Dempsey's presentation she indicated that Ireland would have some reservations about this. If the directive is adopted are we signing up to the acceptance of the generation of electricity through nuclear power?

Ms Dempsey indicated there is clearly a problem with the candidate countries that have old Russian designed plants and who used send the material back to Russia for reprocessing, which is no longer an option. Is Ms Dempsey saying that post the accession of those countries and when this is in place there will be an obligation within the European Union to take care of its own waste which means that the waste from all of those old plants will have to be dealt with somewhere within the European Union? As we know the only two reprocessing facilities in the European Union are at Sellafield and Cap de la Hague. When this is adopted will there be a regime within the European Union, which will effectively tee up continued delivery of raw material to Sellafield for reprocessing and storage into the future? I appreciate that facilities in the candidate countries represent a big problem.

Where will this leave the national effort on Sellafield? If this directive is adopted, we will have a safety and monitoring regime, which is underpinned by European law to which we can have recourse. However the old argument calling for the closure of Sellafield will be dead in the water.

Ms Dempsey

The Deputy's first question as to whether there was an implicit acceptance of a future for nuclear energy is very astute. Under the treaties, particularly the EURATOM treaties, by which we are bound there is provision that nuclear safety should be and can be promoted. Ireland has never taken a position and our opposition has always been to the continuation of nuclear power as a source not only for the very many difficulties around it but also around the environmental, health and other issues, around disposal and decommissioning, and the fact that matters such as waste disposal are largely unresolved. However, we have had to respect the fact that people had already taken those decisions and the industry exists and that some countries, for example Finland, continue to have a commitment to nuclear energy.

Our objective in negotiations would always be that, recognising and respecting the differences that we have, we maintain our personal opposition and seek to enshrine and pursue the highest possible standards in the management around all the sensitive issues concerning the establishment of waste facilities, management, transport, etc. That is Government policy and it is almost national policy across all parties. I do not detect major differences in the national mind around the hazards associated with nuclear energy. The difficulty is if we do not engage. This is a proposal that is live and on the table so we have to engage in negotiating it.

Our mandate, instruction and requirement from the Minister will be to push for and seek at all possible points the highest possible standards, the earliest possible delivery on the standards, etc. The proposal will be decided by QMV so it may be that at the end of the day we may end up having to disagree with the proposal, but that still remains open. The debate has not really commenced. The matter has really only been effectively introduced in the past couple of months and if I understand it correctly from Mr. David Hanlon who attends the atomic questions group, the in-depth analysis of an article by article debate has not yet occurred on either of the two proposals. The short answer is that it is not in our view an endorsement of nuclear. It is recognition of the fact of nuclear and to tackle and squeeze it such that, if one likes, by other means it becomes ultimately even economically an unviable industry and then the legacy will be predominantly the issue we will be handling.

The Deputy's second question was whether we were teeing up a new and lucrative market for reprocessing plants, which we oppose. Mr. Hone would have a more expert view than I would on how that breaks down. I will pass on to him and will sweep up if there is anything in addition to that. Of course we are open to other questions.

Mr. Hone

This is an interesting point. There are people who are opposed to nuclear power full stop. There are people who are not opposed to nuclear power but are opposed to nuclear fuel reprocessing. It is not necessary with the modern type of reactor or even with the Russian type of reactor to reprocess spent fuel. It can be stored. The only kind of fuel which has to be reprocessed for technical safety reasons is the magnox fuels used in the magnox reactors and the only country using such reactors is the UK. Accordingly, when those reactors come to the end of their working life, there will be no need for magnox fuel reprocessing as from a couple of years after the shut-down of the last magnox reactor.

My personal view, which is also held by many people inside and outside the nuclear industry, including opponents and proponents of the industry, is that reprocessing is neither technically or economically the best option. By signing up to this directive, we are not necessarily signing up to the continuation of reprocessing at Cap de la Hague and Sellafield. I wish to make that distinction clear. Reprocessed spent fuel can be stored, but how it is to be stored or disposed of is still an open question. In my view, reprocessing creates more problems than it solves, because one separates out the plutonium which becomes of potential interest to terrorists and one creates a great deal of high-level liquid waste which then has to be conditioned by a process of nitrification before it can be disposed of. My point is that, while signing up to this directive, we could still continue to oppose reprocessing.

The point that concerns me in this paper is that the proposed directive has a pro-nuclear undercurrent which we appear to be welcoming to some extent on the basis that it will bring about better safety standards. I would advise some degree of caution in that regard. We are speaking in terms of finding acceptable solutions to the management of radioactive waste. Have such solutions been found anywhere in the world? I do not believe so. One is still on very dubious ground on this issue. I do not believe a permanent solution will be found. Instead, storage will be an ongoing requirement, thereby passing on serious problems to future generations. I am also concerned about temporary storage in EU accession countries where matters may have been rushed following the break-up of the former Soviet Union.

Another concern arises on storage of disused radioactive material at various locations around the country. Already, there are concerns in certain areas about toxic contamination from disused ESB power stations. Such situations should be monitored to ensure there is no threat to the environment.

Who wishes to respond on that issue?

Ms Dempsey

Mr. Hone and I will do a duet on this one, if that is in order. On the reference to undercurrents, one of the features of this package is that it is an initiative by the Commission, which has largely had a high comfort zone on nuclear issues. The Commission does not have, within itself, the issues of concern which Ireland has, for example. Predominantly, we have not been quite a lone voice as we were joined by Austria and Denmark in many of our concerns in pushing the Commission to engage more proactively.

Many of the standards being proposed in the present document are an absorption of the existing IAEA standards which are already obligatory on the states which have nuclear facilities. Our welcome for this is on the basis that it brings within the European family an endorsement and support for higher standards within the European Union than are necessarily applicable in the IAEA, leaving the gate open for that outcome. There is no reason to believe that those standards are less than they ought to be, based on technical advice.

We view the fact that the Commission has taken an initiative as a positive step towards addressing the concerns of non-nuclear countries, whereas the previous situation was that EURATOM treaties provided for the promotion of nuclear facilities. In our view, we have to take comfort from the fact that issues we have raised constantly and regularly are now being addressed in some measure. It is not a lot - we would consider it a baby step rather than a giant step - but it is a step. Our view is that, consistent with Government policy, we should welcome the step while continuing to hammer at the issue, seeking the highest possible standards. Once there is a system in Europe, as we know from experience with other directives, the matter can be revisited and further standards can be applied. As we are regularly mandated to do, we can lead the charge, as it were, to tighten and raise standards, in so far as we can, on all aspects of the nuclear industry in its widest sense, with our highest concerns focusing on reprocessing and waste issues.

On the specific matter of waste disposal, the directives provide for member states to provide their own system or to use the facility of another member state or a third party. However, the obligation, as I understand it, will be very profoundly upon them to ensure that the standards are equally high - they cannot engage in what one might almost describe as dumping by moving to a cheaper third country. They will not escape the higher standards within Europe by going to a country outside of Europe. The directive is driving in quite an appropriate direction. The debate will be difficult because the protagonists of nuclear energy do not like this at all. There are those who regard this as completely unnecessary, involving duplication of existing standards. Even some of those whom we would describe as our normal allies have certain views. For example, Greenpeace has issued a paper stating that this is not enough. As bureaucrats working to a parliamentary system, we seek to grab what we can, hold it and then improve on it, rather than dismissing it out of hand by virtue of its shortcomings. Our approach is to take what is on offer and look for more. That is, as it were, the driver on which we operate in terms of policy implementation in this particularly difficult and sensitive public issue for Ireland. Mr. Hone may wish to comment further on some technical aspects.

Mr. Hone

Senator Bannon is quite right in saying that no country has come up with a solution to the long-term management of high level waste. Perhaps the Americans are closest to it with Yucca Mountain standards. Of course, they have the advantage of lots of space in which to put their waste, unlike European countries in general. I also endorse Ms Dempsey's comments: nuclear power is a fact of life in many countries, both in western Europe and particularly in the applicant states, many of which obtain a very high percentage of their electricity from nuclear sources. In Lithuania, I believe the figure is of the order of 80%. Even in western Europe, the figure in Switzerland is approximately 50%.

The reality is that nuclear power is with us, whether we like it or not and perhaps there is a feeling that this directive should make it safer. There is no prospect of applicant states or western European countries shutting down their power stations immediately as their commitment in that regard is too great, much as we in Ireland might like them to do so. As Ms Dempsey said, if we have to live with it, let us ensure that the highest standards will obtain.

I served on a working party which was looking at the issue of nuclear safety in applicant states. In a number of cases, our recommendation was that certain power stations will have to be closed down, including the Chernobyl type reactors in Lithuania and some of the earlier reactors in Bulgaria. However, the view of the Commission's enlargement group was that we could not impose higher standards in eastern Europe than are being imposed in western Europe.

Some member states are challenging the legal basis of the directive. Will that dilute it in any way? I accept the points made with regard to holding what we get and subsequently improving on it. Will the effectiveness of the directive be diluted by subsequent amendments which may arise?

Does Deputy Gilmore wish to intervene again?

I wish to return to the question of what this committee intends to do in this regard.

The Deputy has no further questions for the witnesses?

Ms Dempsey

There are member states which consider the legal base to be badly chosen. The Commission maintains, and the Commissions legal services are quite adamant that the legal base is clear. A judgment of the end of 2002 in the European Court of Justice, the name of which completely escapes me for which I apologise, seems to endorse and underpin the broad thrust of the view of the Commission legal services. While our legal advice is that the 2002 judgment tilts towards the Commission having the legal right, it may be a matter that comes before the ECJ if member states which feel the legal basis is inappropriate or ill advised push it. That question is beyond the immediate solution we present. That is indeed a correct recollection of theissue.

On the dilution of the proposed directive, there are those who would scrap it immediately. They are those to whom one would normally refer as the very powerful, though among them are the nuclear states. In a sense they are compromised as the driver for their negotiating position will clearly be seen as self interest or potential self interest rather than the broad standardisation of safety and waste management in installations. We will have to put up a good fight. There will be efforts to dilute and roll out dates. As with UN debate, it is the nature of European debate that somewhere along the line there will be compromise. Our approach will be to come in as strongly as we can as early as possible to seek to influence the debate as one of a strong core of like-minded countries. We could not exercise the sort of power in question solely. We engage regularly to seek support bilaterally with like-minded countries such as Austria, Denmark and, occasionally, Luxembourg. There are other member states which will be motivated by issues which are not specific to us, but which still see that the need for and the promotion of this kind of programme inside the EU is positive. It is all there to play for.

As per the norm, the Commission will produce materials and proposals for directives which are changed, adjusted, tweaked and, in certain circumstances, diluted by the consensus drive towards finding a solution with which all member states are comfortable. The package is also subject to qualified majority voting for which reason I could not possibly read the voting pattern at present. Our ambition is to ensure the voting pattern will be such that it does not dismiss the directive. There must be sufficient voting to ensure the implementation of some form of the directive which we see as an important if minor step towards increased engagement by Europe with matters with which we are very concerned as members of the Community.

Perhaps the Chairman or the Clerk to the committee can be of help with the following. The process of examining European directives at this early stage is a new experience for all of us. It has not been done in advance like this before. I would like to hear from the Chairman or the Clerk as to what options are open to the committee on the proposed directive. We simply note most of the issues which come before us and we do not see them again until they emerge at the other end of the tube. We have done our job on them. This is one we should revisit. The mixed feelings that I have on this issue are reflected in what Ms Dempsey has said. I have complete confidence in the way in which she has outlined the manner in which it is proposed to handle the proposal. Nevertheless, there is an open question as to whether at the end of the process Ireland will support this directive. Therefore, this committee should not simply note the proposed directive; it should return to it in some way.

The procedure we normally adopt is that officials attend to explain exactly what is included in the directive after which there is a question and answer session. The officials are allowed to leave and the committee decides in private how to deal with the matter. I accept what Deputy Gilmore said. There are a number of options which we can discuss later in the meeting.

It is public business; it is not private.

It is public business, but the way we operate is to ask officials to attend to explain matters to us. The duty of the officials attending today is to inform us as to what exactly is contained in the directive and the effect it will have on our country or the EU. We then decide as a committee as to how we should proceed with the document.

That should be done as part of the public session of our meeting.

If the Deputy wishes to do it in public session, I have no difficulty. It is up to the committee members to decide the manner in which we deal with the matter.

All I am saying is that the committee should take a view on this particular matter.

Before the Deputy proceeds along those lines, are members happy with the answers which have been provided to their questions? Does any member have further questions to pose to the officials?

I am fearful of the advancement of the nuclear option in this proposed directive. Ireland's position is vague. A number of disused radioactive sources are stored at different locations and in this context the officials have referred to the rights and powers the proposed directive will give us. We are told to develop a programme of management. There should be a proper management system in place at the storage facilities which we have at present.

Ms Dempsey

Is the Senator referring to waste facilities in other member states?

No, sorry. I am referring to waste stored here. There are a number of disused radioactive sources stored at different locations in Ireland. The officials have told us what the proposed directive will do for Ireland. We should have developed a programme of management before now. The officials referred to developing a programme of management, and will they elaborate on what additional management will be put in place by the proposal?

Mr. Hone

To refer to our earlier discussion of the high activity sealed source, a licence must be taken out whether for sources in use or disused. There are special conditions attached to licences for disused sources in terms of surveillance and source security, including locks on doors and other basic measures. The next stage in the management of such material has to be the establishment of a centralised facility for holding these sources. There is a management regime in place, but it does not meet this proposed directive or the high activity sealed source directive of which we spoke earlier.

That concludes the question and answer section of the meeting. I thank the officials for the comprehensive way in which they dealt with the questions and for their presentations. I am sure we will be in touch with them at a later date.

In deciding how to proceed, we will deal first with document presented to us initially - COM (2003) 18. How do members feel we should proceed?

What are the options open to us? What decisions are we entitled to make?

Usually, we would inform the Sub-Committee on EU Scrutiny that no further scrutiny will be carried out or that further scrutiny is necessary. We could also decide that we should be kept informed about the negotiations that take place and that, if necessary, we should have further discussions on the directive.

I have a proposal on the first directive. The representatives indicated to us that they will, at some point, be advising the Minister on the options for the national storage facility. I ask that when that advice has been given to the Minister, the committee should be informed of those options, at which time it will reconsider the matter.

Are all members happy with that?

I was referring to the second directive more so than the first one.

We will deal with the first directive first.

I have no difficulty with Deputy Gilmore's proposal.

Are we all happy with Deputy Gilmore's proposal? Agreed.

On the second one, we have scrutinised the document. It is important to realise it is only a draft proposal at this stage of and that there will be negotiations. I suggest that the Department officials keep us informed of any changes that occur or any difficulties that arise during the course of those negotiations.

My point is not specific to what we are talking about. It concerns the issue of dealing with EU scrutiny of documents. The matter has come before the health committee on a number or occasions. The last meeting of the health committee had approximately five documents for scrutiny and it took the view that it was a huge responsibility for it - the same applies to this committee - to sign off on any EU scrutiny without advice. We are suggesting that the Chairmen of each committee should meet the EU group dealing with scrutiny - I believe it comes under foreign affairs - and suggest that members just cannot take on that responsibility without professional advice on the specific scrutiny issue. We should examine this matter.

I echo what Deputy Moloney said. These are complicated issues and there is a need for professional help. I also support what Deputy Cregan has said. I ask that we be kept informed of progress in the negotiations, and specifically that we be given an opportunity to consider the matter before a decision is made on the final position Ireland will take in respect of this proposed directive. I ask that the committee be given an opportunity to offer its opinion on what final position the country should take in light of that further information. It was said that an issue existed in terms of whether we would exercise our right to oppose it under the QMV system. The committee might have a view on this when it hears, at a later stage, what progress has been made in the discussions.

It is a very good process and a vast improvement on what occurred previously. Based on my experience on this committee and more so on others, I note that certain of the directives coming through involve notification and information. There are certain key ones in respect of which it would be very useful to obtain further advice and where the Government's position is a key concern.

I was not able to discuss the last questions because I had to leave to take a phone call, but the second directive, in terms of the development of the nuclear industry, must be prioritised. There is no point in this nation taking cases in The Hague and in the international courts and pursuing nuclear safety without availing of the opportunity we have to use our influence in Brussels or to support our officials in Brussels to make the case against the development of the nuclear industry, which the Commission is actually pushing. There are certain key proposals that come before us - this is one of them - on which we should be as involved as possible. The Deputy was right to suggest that we should take time to consider them and obtain as much information as we can. We should use our position to send a submission to the Commission from the parliamentary group stating that we are unhappy and we should back up our officials fully.

We will take it that the line we will adopt regarding the first directive is that the Department should keep the committee informed of developments, particularly on the possible sites for storage, and that we should meet the officials again when a decision is made.

On the second directive, we will adopt a holding approach. We will park the document for the moment but we want to be kept informed by the Department of any progress. Before any decision is made, the committee should be afforded an opportunity to consider the matter.

It is important that we are supportive of the manner in which the Department officials are dealing with the issues. We should be positive about it. At the same time, mention was made of a possible dilution of proposals and amendments and we should be kept informed of any changes that may occur during the course of negotiations.

It would strengthen the hand of officials if they were to deal with circumstances in which they were asked to report back to the parliamentary committee.

I apologise for my having had to leave for a short time. My understanding is that the second directive is the one which is of crucial interest in the sense that there will be a debate in Europe over the approach to take. The first directive, while it is of interest at local level in terms of siting, and while it is of interest to those who are affected by it, will not really lead to contention within the Council or Commission regarding how it is framed. Our main interest as a parliamentary committee must be in supporting or in adding to the debate on the second directive, which is a key international directive in terms of safety in the nuclear industry.

The Deputys constituency is one of the sites.

If we are to——

I agree with what the Deputy is saying.

If we are to take scrutiny seriously, we must prioritise to a certain extent. I argue that the second directive, in terms of the development of the nuclear industry, is the most important I have seen yet. If we are serious about nuclear safety and playing our part, our Government needs to take a very strong stand on the directive in Europe.

I accept what the Deputy is saying. We will inform the Department and also the EU scrutiny committee of the stance we are taking.

Will this be forwarded to other committees? The Department affiliated to this committee is the lead Department in respect of these directives, particularly the second document. Will other Departments be involved, such as the Department of Health and Children and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

The Departments of Health and Children and Enterprise, Trade and Employment are the two in question.

It will be going to both relevant Oireachtas committees?

They will be informed about it but it is up to each committee to decide what action, if any, it wishes to take.

If they have opinions, this committee should be made aware of them.

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