This meeting will clash with questions to the Minister for Foreign Affairs at 2.30 p.m. and, naturally, I will have to absent myself then.
EU Constitution: Ministerial Presentation
I thank the Deputy. Since that is the case, if the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, does not mind, I will allow Deputy Allen to speak on the first item on the agenda. He has 20 minutes in which to do so. We will wait until people have arrived, however.
I have received apologies from Senator Lydon, Jim Higgins, MEP and Avril Doyle, MEP. The first item on the agenda comes is a survey that was taken last week on Irish people's awareness of the upcoming EU constitutional treaty. Some of the figures that came from that survey were worrying. It showed that the electorate was the least aware in Europe of the elements of the EU constitution. Some other countries had a far higher awareness of its detail. For that reason, I put this on the agenda and that is why the Minister has come here today. I thank him for coming at such short notice.
I heard Deputy Quinn in the House today refer to European issues and he commented on this, as did Deputy Allen. It was interesting that people brought it up during the statements on the European Council. In particular, Deputy Gormley stated that there was not enough awareness. He tried to get hold of the most recent edition of the EU constitution, but he had difficulty in finding a copy. It is pertinent to what we will be talking about today. A number of organisations will be given the task of informing the public on what is in the EU constitution before we vote on its ratification. These bodies include the Institute of European Affairs, the Referendum Commission, the European Commission, the European Parliament, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the European Movement, of which Deputy Quinn is chairman.
Considering what will happen this year, it seems that this committee will have a role to play. We will act as a clearing house for those organisations whose job it is to provide the information on the EU constitutional treaty for the Irish electorate. We also have a role as politicians in getting the message out to the public. This has to be done through political debate such as committee hearings here. There is a range of things we could do within the committee to heighten the awareness of what is in the EU constitution.
The next few months will be very interesting in view of the upcoming French referendum in April or May. Spain will hold its referendum on 20 February. Hungary and Lithuania have held referendums. It is still indeterminate as to how this matter will be dealt with in France, even though the Socialist Party has decided to support it. There is a solid majority in Holland in favour of the referendum, but it is still not clear how it will go there. The issue of Turkey crops up again and again. I agree with what Deputy Quinn said today. There seems to be an underlying racist tendency involved. One Dutch politician claimed that if we voted against this, it would prevent Turkey's input into legislation. That is not much of a reason to vote against it. As a committee, it is incumbent on us to deal with the organisations involved in the EU constitution.
I would like to make one or two points before I leave. I am sorry that I have to leave, but I have questions to deal with in the Chamber. I was taken aback when I heard that 45% of people never heard of the constitution, even though we held the EU Presidency when it was agreed. We are in 22nd place out of 25 countries in the league of awareness of the constitution. In football terms, that puts us in the relegation zone. We asked the Minister when the referendum would be held here, but he did not know.
There has been no consultation with those Opposition parties that are in favour of the constitution on how we could inform the public on this issue. Other countries are putting their plans in place. We have to hold a referendum, but we are not in a good position. Where there is lack of information and ignorance, the fear is that people can be exploited. It is about time we got our act together. We must ensure that the mistakes prior to the first Nice referendum are not repeated. Over the next few weeks, I hope that the Government will make decisions, speak to those Opposition parties in favour of the constitution and start educating people. The lack of awareness is a major problem to which we have to face up and it should start now.
When the delegates assembled in Philadelphia, the Scots-Irish in the backwoods of Pennsylvania and other parts of the world were not immediately informed on what was happening downtown, yet they came to learn how to use the American constitution, just like Irish citizens in this republic after the referendum was passed by a minority of the total population. It was not long before Irish citizens, given a new tool of democratic effectiveness, learned how to use it. Immediate awareness is an issue about which I would be concerned, as is the Deputy. In time, people will come to learn how to use what we are talking about if it is ratified by democratic vote.
I thank the Chairman for allowing me to upset the normal rule of things and to speak in advance of the Minister. I ask the Minister to consider two things. I support the call of my colleague, Proinsias De Rossa MEP, that a copy of the complete constitution be sent to every household. That includes the protocols and I will elaborate on why they should be part of it. A copy should also be sent to every school and made available to every library. The network and the infrastructure was assessed before, but a full comprehensive document is required. There will be references in the debate to some of the protocols that are attached to the constitution, asserting that those protocols contain elements within it which oblige people to do something or not to do something. If they are not part of the document, the conspiracy theory allegations will prevail.
However, I still recommend it be done.
Whatever about the date of the referendum, which I accept is a decision for the Government of the day, in light of the parliamentary timetable and the unusual coming together of the St. Patrick's Day holiday and Holy Week the Minister should seriously consider holding the debate on the referendum legislation before St. Patrick's Day, without specifying the date. Before the documentation is sent to all households and before 17 March, the Houses, the Members of which are well informed, should have this debate. Provision is not made for this in the legislative programme circulated. I would be open to the suggestion, if it would facilitate parliamentary passage, that the Bill should commence in the Seanad because there is a backlog of legislation and we are always told the Senators are more reflective and less partisan on such matters. However, we need to decide this.
I suggest that we get the documentation in place in order that it is sent to people's houses between Easter and June and we can state the Oireachtas has decided there will be a referendum on this matter and endorsed the provisions of the Government, but that the date of the referendum has yet to be decided.
It is always good to attend the committee and hear what my colleagues have to say. I thank you, Chairman, for putting this item on the agenda and for providing the opportunity to attend.
All of us involved in explaining the European constitution to the people and working for its ratification were concerned by the findings of the Eurobarometer poll to which you, Chairman, and Deputies Allen and Quinn referred, and to which colleagues referred in today's Dáil debate on the European Council report of December. It revealed disappointing levels of awareness and understanding across the Union. From an Irish perspective, the figures were poor in spite of a number of factors which one might have expected would work in the other direction, and which have been alluded to by the committee. One would have expected the good ongoing work of the National Forum on Europe and organisations like the Institute of European Affairs — to which I pay tribute for their significant contribution in providing information about Europe on a consistent and professional basis — and the extent of media coverage of the negotiations on the constitution during our Presidency to have ingrained the importance of the constitution and informed our citizens much better than the poll suggests. However, the only practical response is to acknowledge the difficulty and the need to do much more.
We know from the two Nice referenda that the most important factor in stimulating public awareness and interest is active political debate, as covered by television, radio and the newspapers. The Government is determined to play a leadership role in the political campaign and we know that, as previously, other pro-European Union political parties in the House will also take an active part. The role of the social partners and other civil society organisations was particularly important in the second Nice referendum. I welcome the recent unanimous decision of IBEC to support the constitution and look forward to working with it and others to ensure its ratification in this country.
As the committee is aware, no date has yet been set for the referendum, and I agree with Deputy Quinn that this is a matter for Government. The Government is keeping all relevant factors under careful review and will come to a decision on this issue at the appropriate moment. We are determined adequate time and space will be provided for public debate and an energetic and participative campaign.
Proprietary work on the wording of an amendment to Bunreacht na hÉireann to allow for Ireland's ratification of the European constitution is proceeding well. I hope it will be possible, as on previous occasions, to reach a broad positive consensus within the Oireachtas. On that point and Deputy Quinn's point, we are anxious to move this matter forward as quickly as possible. However, we are constrained by the Constitution in that we must initiate in the Dáil the debate on any referendum on the Constitution before it goes to the Seanad.
The reality is that most people will focus on the European constitution only when it becomes a live issue. However, it is also important to ensure that factual information is made widely available. Last autumn, the Government published an initial guide to the European constitution and a short leaflet. These were widely distributed to libraries, educational institutions, public offices and various other areas. Their availability was also advertised in all national newspapers and we received a good and pleasing response seeking these documents. The documents and the text of the constitution have been on the Department's website since last October and are available and accessible to everybody. The National Forum on Europe has also published a good summary of the constitution and a DVD for schools. It has a full programme of meetings scheduled for the period ahead in Dublin and provincial locations throughout the country.
Work is under way on the preparation of a comprehensive White Paper on the European constitution which will explain its provisions in detail. However, while such a document is significant by definition, it is not aimed at a wide audience. The Government will therefore prepare summary information material for nationwide distribution as it did before the second Nice referendum. We have yet to decide when these materials will be published but we are committed to ensuring they are produced as quickly as possible and distributed across the country.
I emphasise the work being undertaken by the European Commission and Parliament, which have been very positive in their efforts. Their information material and especially the website they have jointly developed are of a very high standard. In addition, the Commission office here will make available a satisfactory supply of copies of the constitution for distribution to interested members of the public. I understand a first batch of the printed version will arrive in the next few days.
In response to Deputy Gormley, responsibility by practice, precedent and tradition for the printing of European constitutional documents has always rested with the European Parliament and Council through their publications office. They are handling the printing and as soon as copies are printed, as I am sure Deputy Gormley is aware, they will be available for everybody. A limited number will be available in the next few days and a large number as the month progresses. We must consider the practicality of ensuring that documentation is sent to every household. It is a huge document and we must consider the appropriateness of sending all of the documentation or an abridged version to every household.
Of particular significance is the work of the Referendum Commission which under law has the twofold duty of developing public understanding of the issues and encouraging voter turnout, which is important. During the Nice referendum, the commission spent a little over €4 million, much of which was expended on television, radio and cinema advertising and on the production and circulation of two short information leaflets. In its report the Referendum Commission acknowledged that on the last occasion it had been established with sufficient time to do its work properly, although I accept that previously it had difficulties with the timespan available to it. We are anxious to accommodate it with the maximum time possible.
The Referendum Commission can legally be established only after the referendum Bill has been published. I acknowledge Deputy Quinn's point and will raise the issue with the Taoiseach and my Cabinet colleagues to make sure the legislation is published as quickly as possible. The Government is acutely mindful of the need to ensure the commission has the time and resources it requires.
We have for some time been working hard on the wording of the legislation. Since I took up my new position, at the highest levels of Government and across the two Departments with which I am involved, I and my Government colleagues have been working on this matter on a weekly basis. The wording is important and it is critical we get it legally correct. As soon as the wording becomes available, we will have discussions with the leaders of the Opposition parties and, through the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and myself, we hope to reach common ground on that. It will then be printed and published and we will have the debate thereafter.
The Minister referred to the Referendum Commission. Members are aware it will have a significant budget. Deputy Quinn made a valid point with regard to the timing. The commission complained following previous referenda that it did not have enough time to deal with the issues. Therefore, the sooner the text is printed the better. The National Forum on Europe will have a full programme of hearings as times goes on.
Following an approach to the Institute of European Affairs, Mr. Alan Dukes has agreed to come to next week's meeting which will be chaired by Deputy Andrews. This represents the beginning of discussions with the bodies and groups dealing with the referendum on the EU constitution. Professor Richard Sinnott from UCD, who has extensive involvement in this area, has also agreed to come before the committee. He is particularly interested in the public awareness aspect in terms of how best to get the message out regarding the content of the constitution. His views will be relevant over the coming months.
Everyone understands where we are coming from on this issue. I appreciate the Minister of State's remarks and the committee will get back to him over the next few weeks. Every member understands that the Department is in the initial stages of formulating its information campaign. Once the committee has heard from relevant bodies and individuals, we may ask the Minister of State to come before the committee once again to give us a more definitive framework in terms of the Government's intentions over the next six months in regard to such issues as what information should be mailed to every household. I appreciate the Minister must be somewhat vague at this time as not all the decisions have been made. The purpose of today's meeting is to begin that process from our standpoint.
I apologise if I am forced to leave the meeting early to deal with a priority question I have tabled to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. When the Treaty of Nice was under discussion, the full text, which was complex and referred to a number of other treaties, was not circulated. In this case, however, there is a comparatively simpler document. I agree with Deputy Quinn it should be circulated to every voter to ensure there is a proper and informed debate.
Because it is a complex issue, when politicians or other interested bodies are discussing it in the media the public should have a reference document that can be consulted to check the veracity of any such public utterances. Although it is the responsibility of the European Parliament and Council to publish this document, the Government or the Houses of the Oireachtas should try to ensure that not only a summary but the full text of the treaty is distributed to every household. Specific funding should be made available for this undertaking if it is not within the remit of the funding for the Referendum Commission.
Are fora available for NGOs and other groups which are campaigning on the constitution to circulate their material? It should be not only the Government that has the means to circulate a White Paper or other information on the issue.
I appreciate what Deputy Ó Snodaigh has said and am delighted members are anxious there should be no inhibitions, difficulties or impediments in the way of the Government in ensuring that the necessary resources are provided to distribute the constitution text to every household. A final decision has yet to be made on what information will be communicated to every household.
Public funds can be spent only on the communication of factual information and no funds are available to other organisations from the Exchequer. This applies to the conduct of any referendum campaign. The Government's job is to ensure that official documentation, which is formulated on the basis of decisions by the Oireachtas, is circulated to the public. That is as far as we can go in terms of the utilisation of resources in this area.
We are anxious to ensure full participation in the debate and that there is strong, vigorous and positive discussion, taking into account the historic traditions of our involvement in the EU since we joined in 1973 and bearing in mind the opportunities being created for a greater union into the future. The public must fully understand that we need to regularise and singularise the existing structures, treaties and systems that have served the EU so well. The EU is now a much larger entity and we must ensure there is a more official and structural operation that makes it simpler for citizens to access information while also retaining significant power for the domestic Parliaments of all member states.
We can have that debate.
We can do so. However, the important issue is to get the message across.
Is the Referendum Commission called when the Bill is published or when it is passed? There is a difference here because one could publish a Bill in the morning. For example, the Referendum Commission has not been called in instances where Opposition parties have published referendum amendments in the past.
Once a Bill is published and lodged with Dáil Éireann, the Minister is legally in a position to make an order establishing the commission.
Is it true that the earlier the Government publishes the Bill, the earlier the commission can begin its work in encouraging and facilitating debate among the public?
Yes.
Members of the commission have made the point in the past that a difficulty for them in undertaking their work is that Bills have not been published on time.
I agree.
The commission was positive in this regard in its last report.
Yes, the report observed that this was the first time the commission was given sufficient time to undertake its work.
I welcome the opportunity to have this debate. Most of the relevant issues have been discussed. Following the result of the first referendum on the Treaty of Nice, we cannot afford to make the same mistakes in this referendum. I note what the Minister has said about taking a leadership role and I have no doubt we will involve the social partners, education institutions and public offices.
It is important that the message sent to every household is kept simple. If we use any gobbledegook, the information will not be read. This is an important aspect of the information campaign for any referendum and especially so in this case. The public must understand the issue on which it is voting. It has happened in the past that too many "wordy" words have been used in the information literature.
The Minister of Sate observed that the Bill will only come to the Seanad after it has been debated in the Dáil. However, I have always maintained that the Seanad could be used as a forum for creating public awareness on issues such as this. I will ask in the Seanad that a debate be initiated by highlighting the imminence of this process and that statements be made. Seanad Éireann should be used as a forum to create a link between us and the public. I will raise this point again with the Minister of Sate.
I welcome the fact that a summary information leaflet will be compiled and sent to interested members of the public initially. The quicker this is done, the sooner we can start the ball rolling. It may be early days but we should start immediately so that by the time the referendum campaign begins, everybody is well acquainted with the issues.
Does the Minister of State have anything to say on "wordy" words?
I do. I agree with Senator Ormonde this is an important element of the difficulty in generating discussion on EU issues. Many people seem to believe that the issues are too complicated and tend to shy away from such discussion to a degree. The old maxim of keeping it simple is relevant in this regard. We must provide information that is clearly focused and easily understood, which functions as a tool to allow people to inform themselves, their families and their communities so that everybody can participate in a decision that is critical to the future of our country and of the EU.
Senator Ormonde made a good point to which the Minister of State has given his reply. History will teach us a number of lessons when it comes to these referendums. In many cases, our approach has been a failure in terms of trying to get across even a basic message to the public with regard to Europe and these referendums. Our point is well made. There is little point in sending out a book of this size. As others said, we are talking about a lengthy document. Perhaps we could come up with some alternative method with regard to educating the public before we next meet. People like Richard Sinnott will come before the committee and I am sure they will give us ideas on how to do that.
The message from the poll published last week was that Irish people are in the dark, generally speaking, about what is contained in the constitutional treaty. Are there methods to inform them other than sending out a booklet to every household? We have to be ready to engage different methods to get the message across.
I have listened to the requests made today. Everybody has a desire that all our citizens are informed as quickly and in as great detail as possible but our difficulty is to balance the requirement of getting the entire document to every household, which is a major technical but worthy task operation, against the requirement to inform the people and ensure that when they get the document they will read it. That is the challenge and we have to make the decision on that. There is no doubt about what Professor Sinnott and all the people involved in that area have said over the years, particularly since the last referendum. The one clear way to inform the people is through communication by way of television, radio and public debate. That is where people get the most information, participate to the greatest extent and are armed to make a decision based on what they hear from those who take part in a debate on these issues. That is the clear message — television, radio and public debate.
I welcome the Minister of State and thank him for coming before the committee at short notice. Deputy Allen and Senator Quinn expressed their concerns but the response from the Minister of State dealt with some of the anxieties felt by all of us. This process has already begun and we, as a committee, have an important role to play in it. Speaking at a function last Friday night in Cork, the Taoiseach briefly referred to the forthcoming referendum on the European constitution. He alerted the people that much information would be available on the European constitution. That is not just a matter for the Chairman or members of this committee, it is for everybody. The more simplistic we make the presentation, the better for everybody.
We all received material from the National Forum on Europe yesterday regarding the EU referendum in which there is a summary of the European constitution. That process is starting now and the points made by the Minister here are important because the dialogue must continue. It will be up to us to do that, not just in this forum because the issue is wider than that. I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee today because it is helpful to us, and we will move forward from here.
I thank Deputy Wallace for his comments. The Taoiseach is committed to this process. We all have a duty to use every opportunity when discussing issues in a public forum, whether in public meetings or whatever, or outside this House, to alert people to the importance of the constitution and the fact that Europe has been very good for our country. We should ask them to study the constitution and be aware of its importance. That will allow them make a balanced, positive decision on the referendum.
I support what Senator Ormonde said about the simplicity aspect. Deputy Wallace referred to the document issued by the National Forum for Europe, Summary of a Constitution for Europe. I am not aware if other members do this but when I read the letters to the editor section of a newspaper, unless I have plenty of time, I tend to ignore the long letters. I read the short, snappy ones. I would be reluctant, therefore, to encourage loading every home with the full constitution because I do not believe it will be read. This document is much easier to read, and perhaps we should produce something even more simple.
To take the example of the sin bin in rugby, when somebody misbehaved playing rugby in the past the referee was reluctant to send off the player because that was the end of the match for that person, but with the introduction of the sin bin, the referee is happy to send off the player because it will be for only ten minutes. The easier it is to have something understood, the simpler it is. Something similar happened with the alcohol Bill. In the past, the only power the judge had in the event that somebody misbehaved was to take away the pub owner's licence, thereby closing the pub. Now a judge can close a pub for a few hours or days, and that sanction is much more readily used. The comparison may not be understood, but selling Europe to our citizens — we have talked about bringing it closer to our citizens — is much more easily done in simple words.
I was talking to the Minister for Foreign Affairs about the marvellous new road to Dundalk and he told me there is huge appreciation for the road, although I believe the thanks might go to the Government party rather than to Europe. We should ensure we draw attention to the benefits of Europe. The road improvements throughout the country were brought about by Europe. The low cost air travel would not have come about except for a united Europe. The benefit of price comparisons, particularly recently with petrol, would not have come about without a euro currency. If we remind people of the benefits they get from Europe we are much more likely to get them to admit they appreciate them and will support the referendum. In that respect, the simpler we can make the case for the constitution, the better.
I do not know how we should handle the Referendum Commission, which must strike a balance between the pros and cons of the argument. As the Minister of State said, it is up to us, as citizens, to use every opportunity to highlight the benefits of Europe to our citizens. That way we are much more likely to get support for the referendum and not have a repeat of what happened in the first Nice referendum where, due to complacency, it was lost and we had to work much harder to ensure the second referendum was passed.
I am impressed by what Senator Quinn said because he has been a master of communication to a wide consumer base. The complexity of retail business has been brought down to a fine art. We must examine the complexity of the European constitution, and keeping the message simple is very important. I will take on board what members said today. The advice of this committee is very important and we value it. I hope that, together, we can reach a conclusion on the final package and that we can have maximum participation from all our citizens as quickly as possible.
I record that I got lost on a few occasions in Superquinn in Blackrock.
That is the point, they want you to get lost.
One is drawn down to the dairy section at the far end, even though that is the only item one wants. It is very clever.
On the one hand the McKenna judgment requires the Government to spend evenly on the "Yes" and the "No" arguments, yet people are critical of the confusion these complex treaties cause. We are all talking about simplicity but the McKenna judgment feeds into confusion because we are used to an adversarial style of politics where the Government party argues one aspect and the Opposition parties argue another. That system was suspended on only one occasion by Alan Dukes, with his famous Tallaght strategy. Irish people do not understand the "on the one hand-on the other hand" type argument put forward by the Referendum Commission. They think it is mumbo-jumbo.
We managed to pass a large number of European treaties, including the Amsterdam and Maastricht treaties and the Single European Act, without the need for any of that. Arguably, we are a little over-cautious since the first Nice referendum. The mistake was that we did not take the first Nice referendum seriously enough. The electorate has become much more sophisticated. I agree with Senator Quinn in that I do not see any point in that. I wonder if anyone will read it, much less understand it. With complex legal instruments such as this one, people rely to a large extent on others to form their opinion, and that is where we step in.
Senator Ormonde's point on the role of the Seanad is interesting. The Finnish Parliament does not have a second house. It has a grand committee which is solely responsible for European affairs and it reviews and scrutinises European legislation. There is an argument for enhancing the role of the Seanad in terms of this debate and elevating its role to bring simplicity to this matter.
Deputy Andrews has made a number of valuable points. The McKenna judgment is now the law of the land. Arising from that, it can be said that the putting of the two sides of an argument before the people can create confusion. The consensus of the committee on this issue is obvious. The documentation we publish on this matter should be simple, clear, concise, focused and attractive for people to peruse, study and become informed to help them make up their minds on what they be believe is best in terms of the common good for the future of the country. We take on board what has been said here. We are mindful that we must do so against the legal constraints in place. We will do our utmost to make the documentation as simple as possible and to ensure it is available to everybody.
For the information of members who came in late, we propose to invite in those organisations dealing with the EU constitution to ask them exactly what they propose to do in terms of informing the public about it. We will ask the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Minister to come in again at a later date, as well as people like Richard Sinnott who has agreed to come here on 2 March to give us some suggestions as to how to raise public awareness about the EU constitution.
The message today is to ensure we bring simplicity to this matter. That is what we are all talking about. We are all politicians in our right. None of us is surprised or shocked that people would be in the dark as to what is in the EU constitution. None of us expects the entire electorate to be fully knowledgeable or aware of the detail of the protocols involved in this by the time the process is finished. One can only do one's best, but we have had some failures in the past.
I disagree with Deputy Andrews that there may be an over-reaction to this matter in comparison with what has happened in the past. I heard him and others speak on the floor of the Dáil earlier about a neo-liberal agenda, militarisation, the subjugation of Irish law in the context of the constitution on which we may vote. I have heard some misinformation.
The Referendum Commission has to present this argument.
It is not the only body dealing with it. I understand the Deputy's point. I heard what was said on this matter on the floor of the Dáil today and I have a concern in that we, and the Department, should be involved in this matter at this point. What I heard today concerns me in that we need to begin this process immediately. I thank the Minister of State for his contribution.
I thank the Chairman and colleagues.
We will suspend briefly.
Sitting suspended at 2.54 p.m. and resumed at 2.56 p.m.