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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 2005

Visit of Republic of Cyprus Delegation.

The second item on our agenda is an exchange of views on matters of mutual interest with the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Tassos Papadopoulos. I thank the President for attending. A number of members met him previously in Cyprus and it is good to see him again. The other members of the delegation are Ambassador Tzionis, director of the political office of the President; Ambassador Zenon, director of EU affairs and European countries at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; Ambassador Kakouris, ambassador of the Republic of Cyprus, a person we know well; Konstantina Paneti, press attaché to the President; Dr. Flourentzos, director of the Department of Antiquities; and Mr. Sava, secretary of the Cypriot embassy. They are all welcome.

We try to keep meetings such as this as informal as possible. In general, delegates are asked whether they would like to make a presentation to the committee, following which I invite questions from members. I am aware that some members have already met the delegation at this morning's meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. However, there are plenty of others who have not had the opportunity to put questions to it.

President Tassos Papadopoulos

I thank the Chairman for taking the time to meet me. I am grateful to members for taking time from the parliamentary session to attend this meeting. I met some of them this morning. I spent most of my time at the earlier meeting making my opening statement which I will not repeat.

On 1 May 2004 Cyprus became a full member of the European Union. My experience has been that on all issues of importance, our views are more or less in line with those of Ireland, even in cases where there was no prearranged meeting to discuss positions. There is correspondence in our views of the work and objectives of the Union. I invite questions from members.

I will not repeat what I said in private this morning. However, I express my admiration for the President's decision in regard to the opening of accession talks with Turkey. There would have been a great temptation to use the occasion to put the squeeze on his Turkish counterparts. Without finality in regard to the recognition of Cyprus, however, the accession talks are built on political quicksand. I hope this key issue for Cyprus will be resolved sooner rather than later.

I also asked the President in private this morning about the issue of the reflagging of ships in the context of the problems we were experiencing with a particular shipping company, a matter in which I do not wish him to become involved. There is talk, however, that the ferry company will reflag some of its ships under the Cypriot flag. I understood from the President's comments this morning that he would do everything possible not to complicate the situation for the Irish authorities. The reality is, however, that a company would not go to Cyprus if there was not some laxity in the regulations there. My question arises from the President's response. Will there be talks with the Irish Government with a view to bringing about uniformity of conditions in labour laws throughout the European Union? Will Cyprus support such moves? The company would not go to Cyprus unless different conditions pertained there.

President Papadopoulos

On the first point, I will repeat our position. The Deputy is right; our decision not to raise objections to the fixing of a date for the commencement of negotiations on Turkey's accession was not very popular with the people. However, the government and I sought an arrangement in regard to Turkey that was oriented so as not to prejudge whether full accession or a special relationship should apply. It is better for the whole area of the eastern Mediterranean, Turkey, the United Nations and us but subject to an important reservation that Turkey will undertake to conform to all its obligations to the European Union, including those with regard to the Republic of Cyprus.

Turkey's accession will not only be difficult from the point of view of principles and values which the European Union demands from each applicant state but also from each member of the European Union. The obligations on Turkey are spelled out in some detail in a negotiating claim for Turkey which was agreed by all 25 member states and by Turkey. Therefore, we expect implementation of these obligations and to have the statement of 21 September from the Council that there will be a review of the progress of Turkey in complying with its obligations either in the first six months or later in 2006. We also expect the member states to insist that there are no discounts in respect of Turkey not complying with its obligations.

On the issue of reflagging, we do not want Cyprus to be in a position where it will be presented as complicating the important issue that is being discussed in Ireland. As the joint committee is aware, any business, including shipping, has the freedom to establish itself where it wishes — that is one of the fundamental principles of the Treaty of Rome. There is no way any country can prevent a company from another member state from establishing itself or, in this case, reflagging its vessel under the Cyprus flag, so long as the conditions of our Government for registering ships under our flag are fully met. We would see that they are being fully met in this case.

Cyprus has an internal law where foreign workers working in Cyprus or on a flag ship must comply with the regulations set down in law concerning safety and remuneration. We have bilateral agreements with 21 other countries on the level of remuneration. In a case where there is no bilateral agreement we apply the international labour office convention in respect of fair wages. We will make sure if there is an application for reflagging — I have just inquired and I have been informed that interest was shown but no application has as yet been filed — that all the requirements are fully implemented. I do not think that will happen now.

The Cyprus flag is no less strict than any other flag. In the past we have been criticised for our flag. We were on the black list last year but after we adopted a great number of measures at great expense we have been taken off of that list, so our flag is not a flag of convenience. There is a discussion on the matter in the European Union on Monday next at the meeting of the transport Ministers. I am aware Ireland is going to raise the issue of exploitation of uniform standards of employment but being realistic in a democracy I do not believe Ireland will find much support in the European Union for such a measure. We will see what the proposal is and we will make our decision.

I was present at this morning's meeting but I wish to thank the President again for coming to the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I have noted from the briefing that trade between Ireland and Cyprus is healthy in many sectors, including tourism. Is there anything Ireland can do to assist the political process in Cyprus? For our part, it is clear we would like a united Cyprus and the delegation stated that eloquently this morning. I would support such a move and I have supported publicly the proposed Turkish membership of the European Union. It was significant, as the President said, that Cyprus did not apply any pressure on that issue when those negotiations were at a critical stage, nor did Greece. I would be disappointed if reciprocal friendship was not forthcoming from the other side. That is an issue that could be explored because as stated, an important precursor to a real solution on Cyprus are full and harmonious relations not just between Greece and Turkey but between Turkey and the entirety of the island of Cyprus. Those relations should be open and healthy, as they have not been on our own island for a long time but, hopefully, they are becoming that way. In that context is there anything practical Ireland can do either bilaterally with Cyprus or as a member of the European Union?

Allow me to add something to that, Mr. President. Of the two factors the Deputy has mentioned, what is the President's opinion on the appointment of a possible UN special envoy?

President Papadopoulos

I will answer the last point first. We have always had a special envoy with the Secretary General. That was replaced by a negotiating team during the last period of the plans suggested by the United Nations. This did not come to fruition and, so far as I know, the negotiating team has been dissolved and all of them have been reassigned to other tasks. I spoke about it with the Secretary General on at least two occasions, the last being in September. He is considering whether to appoint a special envoy or to assign this task to one of his closest associates because he wants to keep an eye on developments. We view this matter generally and would like to see a special envoy being appointed to further developments and to help the recommencement of negotiations.

Ireland has helped us very much in the past. It was during the Irish Presidency that Cyprus joined the European Union. Despite last minute difficulties raised by separate countries, the resolute position of the Irish Presidency and, in particular, of the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, overcame any such prejudices. Ireland is continually helping the Cyprus issue and so on and the issue is often raised in various circles of the European Union. We have always found that Ireland supports our views because Ireland supports a united Cyprus.

I do not believe there is anybody in this room or anywhere who is more eager than me to see our country reunited, not just on paper because it is our people who have suffered from this imposed partition which was imposed by the invasion and occupation by Turkey in 1974. Some 37% of our territory is occupied by the Turkish army ever since, which prohibits any movement of the Greek Cypriots or settlement of Greek Cypriots in their homes or properties. One third of the population have been made refugees in their own countries without any right to own, dispose of or use property and houses. I repeat what I said this morning. Some 88% of land in the occupied area has belonged to Greek-Cypriots for centuries but the residents are now refugees. We will do all we can to see the country reunited. We rejected the United Nations proposal because it did not provide for reunification. On the contrary, it would perpetuate the divisive elements which were reproduced in the Annan plan.

On trade and tourism, an increasing number of tourists come from Ireland, while our trade is at very good levels. In the past we almost exclusively bought potato seed from Ireland, which for more than 20 years proved to be the best suited for Cyprus. From a climatic point of view, soil and rain conditions made our potatoes grown from Irish potato seed better than any others being sold, for example, in England. They were being sold for a penny or two more than any others. Since joining the European Union, the Cypriot Government is no longer allowed to import potato seed, which is left to the merchants. Because potato seed from Ireland is of the best quality and thereby more expensive, last year merchants started importing 36 varieties. I do not know whether this is a blessing or a curse. As a result, this year's crop has been completely ruined. We used completely unsuitable potato seed, some with diseases and others of unsuitable quality such as yellow potato which is consumed only in Germany. As Germany produces more than it needs and exports the balance, how could we sell potatoes to it? As we speak, potato growers in Cyprus are blocking one of the main road arteries with their tractors, combine harvesters and cars seeking to have the Cypriot Government compensate them for their loss through being unable to trade their potatoes. I hope they at least learn the lesson that more expensive Irish potato seed is better than the cheaper seed, which is useless. I believe trade in potato seed will resume next year.

I thank the President. The case of Cyprus has been well presented by its ambassador. Cyprus was one of the few accession countries to emphasise that it was not coming to the European Union with a begging bowl. Clearly, the Republic of Cyprus is not in need of EU help or support. However, this does not apply to the northern part of the island. How did the Greek community in Cyprus react? Will they resent the fact that people on the northern part of the island will get help and they will not, or are they relaxed about the prospect?

Because of its geographic position close to the Middle East, Cyprus must be an attractive place for asylum seekers. Since it joined the European Union, has the situation changed? We may have something to learn from Cyprus in this regard.

President Papadopoulos

The short answer to the Senator's first question is no. Greek-Cypriots would not resent Turkish-Cypriots receiving financial aid. As proof of this, under the Annan plan, €259 million was to be given to Cyprus in the event of a solution being reached. As no solution was reached on 26 April 2004, we suggested the €259 million should still be given to the Turkish Cypriots. We agreed from the beginning. Other countries wanted to extract more out of it and stated the financial aid needed to be coupled with what they called a regulation in respect of free trade. I will explain later what is meant by free trade. We have always agreed to the release of the €259 million. At one stage it was suggested the Commission should put the matter to a vote in order that those who wanted to have it coupled with something else would be required to use their veto. Of course, the Commission did not present it as it was influenced indirectly not to expose it. This week the matter has arisen again and our reply is the same. Although we have a veto, we would not exercise it but support the release of the €259 million to the Turkish Cypriots.

There is a significant gap in per capita income between the two sides, which is due to occupation, not us. It is also due to political reasons. Turkish Cypriots, wanting to present a picture of having a separate state, introduced the Turkish lira as the official currency in their area, even though the Cyprus pound is freely and most frequently used in dealings among Turkish Cypriots. They introduced the Turkish lira purely for political reasons. In introducing a foreign currency to an economy all of its weaknesses are also introduced in terms of bank interest rates for loans. The Turkish lira is not the strongest currency in the world. For that gap we take no blame. In the meantime we provide Turkish Cypriots with the pensions they had earned before the troubles in 1963, free medical aid in our hospitals, free medicines and various other allowances. We do so consciously, as we want to build goodwill between the two communities and the more we breach the financial gap the easier we will make it to find a solution through reunification of the society, community and economy. It is not possible to have true reunification without reunification of territory, the society, economy and institutions.

Asylum seekers have become a major problem for us. Asylum seekers or illegal immigrants, as I call them, come from Turkey to the occupied area of Cyprus and as communication is free, they cross to our side. They are now so well prepared that they appear at the first police station or to an official with typed applications for asylum citing the names of their lawyers. When asked where they come from, as there are some agreements in place for reintroduction in Syria, Lebanon and Israel, they reply that they do not speak English and have no papers.

Cyprus now has 9,000 asylum seekers compared to just 65 in 2001. The mistake Cyprus has made is that when such people ask for asylum, it provides them with housing, pays them a monthly allowance of approximately €500, or more if they have children, and allows them to work until their applications have been examined. If an application for asylum is rejected in the first instance, it can be appealed. All refusals are appealed. The process can take between one year and two years. In the meantime, a great deal of money is allocated to people who are illegal immigrants, rather than asylum seekers.

Cyprus has established more tribunals to examine the application of asylum seekers. It has trained officials from other countries to trace whether asylum seekers are from Afghanistan, Congo or any other country in Africa. If asylum seekers do not have any papers, it is not possible to send them back to their own countries. Cyprus is thinking of changing its laws in this regard, as it is allowed to do, to discourage illegal immigrants from arriving there. It is considering not allowing asylum seekers to work for the first six months after they arrive in Cyprus.

I have told the European Union repeatedly that Cyprus is protecting the boundary of the European Union, because its boundary is the Union's most eastern and most southerly one. Many asylum seekers use Cyprus as a means of arriving in the EU, on their way to countries like Italy, Greece or Germany. I do not believe a small country like Cyprus should be left alone to combat this problem. It does not have a serious navy and it has no means of checking those who cross the dividing line on the island of Cyprus. The European Union should consider this problem as one that affects the entire Union, rather than just an individual member state. If it does not do so, more people will be tempted to put pressure on Cyprus as a means of making their transits to Italy easier. I am sure that is not what Italy wants.

I must leave because there is a vote in the Seanad.

Some of the members of the joint committee are leaving because there is a vote in our Upper House. They are not leaving because of anything that President Papadopoulos was saying. They will be back.

I would like to extend a warm welcome to the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Papadopoulos, to this meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I had the pleasure last week of attending a meeting with the Cypriot ambassador, Mr. Kakouris, at which we discussed in detail the situation in Cyprus, the impediments to progress and the obligations of the EU and the UN to deal with the problem there. Division can be painful, as can unification, but the need to make progress needs to be accepted. I hope a solution to the Cyprus problem can be found sooner rather than later. It is in all our interests that the problem is resolved. The world has become a very small place for us all. We depend on each other to an increasing extent. We need to make progress at this time. I wish President Papadopoulos well with his visit to Ireland. If we can give him any support, we will be glad to do so.

Regrettably, I did not meet President Papadopoulos earlier. I formally welcome him to this meeting. It is great to have the President of the Republic of Cyprus at a meeting of the joint committee. The Cypriot ambassador, Mr. Kakouris, has laid a strong foundation for the meeting. He is seen by some people as the 167th Deputy because he has spent so much time at this forum. He has outlined the difficulties faced by Cyprus, which is important.

It is important for the joint committee to play whatever role it can to ensure that the major problem in Cyprus, which is comparable to that faced in Ireland, is resolved. Nobody in this committee finds it acceptable that another EU member state is unrecognised by a third party — Turkey, in this instance. The President has the support of the committee in that regard. Is President Papadopoulos pleased that the lead role in resolving the Cypriot problem is being taken by the UN? Has a timescale been put in place to try to sort it out?

President Papadopoulos

I am pleased that many members of the committees I have attended have praised the Cypriot ambassador. Ireland and Cyprus are fortunate to have two very good ambassadors. I refer to the Irish ambassador to Cyprus, Mr. Swift, and the Cypriot ambassador to Ireland, Mr. Kakouris. Nobody has mentioned that Mr. Kakouris is married to a lady with Irish origins. Perhaps that is why he is so well liked here.

If the President will excuse me, I have to leave this meeting to go next door for a moment. Perhaps he would like to take questions from another member.

President Papadopoulos

I hope the Deputy does not lose the vote.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the President of the Republic of Cyprus, Mr. Papadopoulos, and his staff. I would like to ask about the economic policies being pursued in Cyprus in preparation for economic and monetary union, for which Cyprus has set a target date of 2008. What form of progress is being made in that regard? Are the Cypriot authorities confident that they will reach the objectives which have been set out if they are to join the economic and monetary union by the target date?

President Papadopoulos

I hope the Deputy will excuse me if I provide a little background information in response to his questions. When the current Cypriot Government took office, Cyprus had a budget deficit of 6.8% of GDP. It had increased by three percentage points. The previous Government had submitted two conversion programmes to the European Union, but it did not observe them. It was a question of credibility. The current Government expects that it will succeed in reducing the deficit to 2.9% of GDP this year, after just two years in power, without having imposed any additional taxes but having put in place a very strict austerity programme, which is not popular in Cyprus. It expects that the deficit will be 1.9% next year and that there will be a budget surplus the following year, unless petrol prices start to increase rapidly once more.

This reversal in the economic fortunes of Cyprus has been achieved without any increases in taxation as a consequence of the maturity of employers and trade unions. I reached an agreement with all the unions in Cyprus. There is a very strong trade union movement in Cyprus — 76% of working people are members of organised unions. There were no wage increases in 2004 or 2005, although there will be an increase of 2%, which is below productivity, in 2006.

The current Government is dutifully preparing for the new conversion programme that it has submitted to the EU. Cyprus became a member of the exchange rate mechanism on 1 May last. An EU member state needs to have a track record of all indicators being right — its deficit needs to be what it says it will be, for example — for at least two years before it can join the eurozone. The earliest date on which Cyprus can join the eurozone is 1 May 2007.

I have learned, to my surprise, that introducing the euro is not an easy task. A Government cannot simply decide to introduce the currency from 1 January of a certain year. When I asked for the plans which my collaborators had produced, I was given two thick volumes of things which Cyprus had to do before it could prepare to join the eurozone. Cyprus sought the assistance of Ireland in its preparations because it was aware that its circumstances were closer to those of Ireland than those of any other member state. Under a programme that has been put in place, Cypriot public servants go to Ireland on a regular basis and Irish experts come to Cyprus to train its officials. All such arrangements are made by the Cypriot authorities. Cyprus hopes to join the eurozone in 2008. It may join the eurozone earlier than that, but the Cypriot Government would rather be certain before it decides on a date. That is the plan.

I was asked about Cypriot economic policies. We have a strong economy with low unemployment which has ranged between 2% and 4% over the last 30 years. We have low inflation and a good social insurance scheme. When I hear of the problems of pension schemes in other countries, I am glad actuarial reports indicate that ours will be sound until 2018. We can continue to increase welfare payments to the people.

We have a significant economic services sector which includes tourism, management, financial services and banking and we are trying to expand into private clinics and hospitals to attract people from outside. We plan for an annual rate of growth of 4% and an analogous increase in the social benefits we give to the people. Were it not for the adverse budget deficit we inherited, we would have been able to give more grants to our people. In appreciation for the co-operation of employers in keeping down their prices and the trade unionists in keeping down their wage claims, our Government decided last September to give sizeable, one-off grants, mostly to pensioners, those with incapacity and those who, for one reason or another, are not entitled to more than the minimum pension. This action was appreciated by the people.

Before Deputy Sexton left, she asked about the UN taking the lead. Our policy is that the Cyprus problem is one which comes under the aegis of the United Nations. It has been ongoing for many years and become a headache in many circles internationally. The UN has several very important decisions and resolutions concerning Cyprus, one of which, for example, is that no country should encourage the secessionist attitude of the Turkish-Cypriot administration. While we do not want to lose this support, we became, on 1 May last year, a member state of the European Union which already contained two of the protagonists in this issue, Greece and the United Kingdom. The fourth protagonist, Turkey, is eagerly pursuing its course towards membership of the European Union.

The EU cannot be left out and must play a more energetic role in Cyprus. Practically, we need it. I took part in negotiations on the previous plan, so many of the provisions of which are incompatible with EU law, even procedurally. Every week one or other of my Ministers is at the Commission and some of the subjects they address are clear-cut while others are not. One may find out that one has competition issues in the communications sector and needs to address monopolies. According to the Annan plan, if there is a doubt as to whose responsibility it is to go, the presidential council must decide who is going to leave. The proviso is that the decision must include one Greek Cypriot and one Turkish Cypriot vote. If the council does not decide, a court will.

The EU Council has the bad habit of taking meetings quickly and it does not wait for court decisions. If anyone from the EU was involved in a decision like the one I outlined, he or she would point out that the process did not work. We are asking the Secretary General to take the lead again and to appoint a special representative or take some other initiative while the EU lends its expert knowledge to negotiations.

Can the President talk to us briefly about the party political system in Cyprus?

President Papadopoulus

We have a presidential system with strict separation of Parliament, Government and the courts of justice. Ministers are not allowed to be members of Parliament. In fact, two of the Ministers I appointed had to resign their parliamentary seats and be replaced by successors. As we have no prime minister, the President is head of the Executive with wide powers. We have proportional representation, universal suffrage and the age from which one can vote has been lowered by constitutional amendment from 21 to 18 years.

The term of office of the President and Parliament is five years, but elections do not coincide. While parliamentary elections will take place next May, presidential elections will not take place until three years later. We have proportional representation with no limits as to entry, we simply divide the number of voters by the seats. Whoever reaches the required number of votes gets in.

We have a strong leftist, communist party, though they do not call themselves communists, which is the largest party. We have a right-wing party which is a couple of points below its rival and those two parties always compete for first place, not that it makes much difference to the number of seats they have in Parliament. My party is a socialist, democratic party which has about 15% of the vote.

Where is it in the political spectrum? Is it in the middle?

President Papadopoulus

It is a party of the centre. Personally, I am centre-left.

That sounds familiar.

I join my colleagues in extending a warm cead míle fáilte to the President. He is very welcome here. I am sure the warm relations between our countries will be improved by his visit. I had the privilege of visiting the President with colleagues when we were in Nicosia. The most enduring memory of my visit was the sight of Famagusta across the border, a once-thriving port which had become a ghost-town. I met people from the town who had lost their businesses. There have been promotions which have led to some Irish people buying property on the northern part of the island of Cyprus. I wonder what President Papadopoulus has to say to buyers and promoters of property given what he has told us about the proportion of the land which is owned by Greek Cypriots.

Cyprus has a very indefatigable advocate of its cause in Ambassador Kakouris who always keeps us up to date on what is happening in his country.

President Papadopoulos

I advise Irish people that if they buy immovable property in Northern Cyprus, 88% of this is Greek Cypriot property and they are leaving themselves exposed to prosecution. This could take the form of a criminal prosecution for trespassing or a civil action for taking over property. The true owner will take a case and there are many precedents for this in the Cypriot courts. This will be the first destination and later the owner may take the case to the European Court of Human Rights. Four or five decisive cases have been taken in the latter because the right to property is an important human right. Political decisions regarding the property do not override this right. Even if I sign an agreement with the Turkish Cypriot leadership stating that the property of Greek Cypriots in the north is lost, an individual owner can take a case and he or she will win. Several people have done so.

At present there is a British couple, the Orams, who built a house on Greek Cypriot land. The owner took a case to the European Court of Human Rights and it declared him to be the continuing lawful owner of the land. On this basis he brought a case in Cyprus against the Orams to seize the land. The European warrant, allowing the implementation of a decision in one member state of a court decision from another member state, permitted this man to travel to England, seeking to take over the Orams property in London as payment. He won the case in the lower court but an appeal has been lodged. Our advisers say he has a good chance of winning the appeal so the Orams stand to lose their house in London as well as vacating the house in Cyprus.

I advise Irish people not to buy such property because it is immoral and they will be implicated in court proceedings and will lose their money.

Has the President any evidence of the extent this practice is happening in general and in terms of Irish people?

President Papadopoulos

There are very few Irish because the Minister for Foreign Affairs made a statement in the Parliament advising Irish citizens of the dangers of buying land in Cyprus. For the last 18 months we have tried to convince the British, the main buyers, that they should issue similar advice to their citizens. They issued some wishy-washy statement advising citizens to seek legal advice before buying land. Now, some 100 British nationals find themselves involved in court proceedings. Recently, Britain issued a statement advising that buying land belonging to Greek Cypriots may lead to court proceedings.

That is an important point. I have been handed a reply from the Minister for Foreign Affairs to a parliamentary question of 10 November 2005 stating:

Any Irish citizen considering the purchase of property in the area in which the Government of the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise effective control should consider very carefully all the complex legal issues involved. It is important also to take full account of the political background. Any future comprehensive settlement in Cyprus will certainly include provisions on property rights which, depending on the particular circumstances, could have very serious practical or financial implications for people who have purchased property in the northern part of the island.

Our stance on this is clear. I thank the president and I wish to recognise His Excellency Mr. Swift, who treated us with such courtesy when we visited Cyprus last year. I also thank His Excellency Mr. Kakouris for his help. I wish the president well in the future.

President Papadopoulos

I hope the committee visits Cyprus again, especially when we have sun and warmth in winter. The temperature in Cyprus today is 22°C.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.55 p.m. and adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 1 December 2005.

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