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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 25 Mar 2010

Proposed EU 2020 Strategy: Discussion with Social Justice Ireland.

We have apologies from Deputy Pat Breen and Senator Phil Prendergast. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That is standard practice.

This is a discussion on the proposed EU 2020 strategy. I welcome Fr. Seán Healy, with whom we have had many discussions over the years, and Sr. Brigid Reynolds, with whom we have also had some considerable discussion over the years. The EU consultation paper EU 2020 sets out a new strategy to make the EU a smarter and greener social market. The new plan proposes how the EU can successfully exit the economic crisis and move to a more sustainable, greener and smarter economy. The strategy aims to strengthen Europe's industrial base, facilitate a thriving agricultural sector and create a modern service sector which will result in high levels of employment and advance social progress.

The joint committee considered the working document in detail, including a public hearing with the Minister of State responsible for European Affairs, Deputy Dick Roche. In light of the debate, the joint committee agreed to forward a contribution to the European Commission expressing the committee's views on the document. It was quite an interesting debate, which took account of the position heretofore, the current position and what is likely to emerge. Members made a considerable submission after a long debate.

The witnesses are welcome and I call on Fr. Seán Healy to introduce the topic. The usual procedure is that there will be a presentation of ten or 15 minutes, which will be followed by questions and answers from either side.

Fr. Seán Healy

I thank the committee for having us to discuss this very important issue. Social Justice Ireland is calling on the Government to ensure that the European Council adopts a target of reducing poverty by 25% in the EU 2020 strategy and adopts social cohesion and social inclusion as explicit objectives of the European strategy for 2020. The Council is set to meet today and tomorrow but the finalisation of the 2020 strategy is not due until the meeting of the Council in June, as we understand it. It will be discussed and it is possible parts of it will be agreed at the meeting today and tomorrow.

We have written to the Taoiseach urging him to ensure this spring European Council meeting agrees to six items. These are as follows: to set social cohesion and social inclusion as explicit objectives of the Europe 2020 agenda; to commit to reduce poverty by 25% by 2020 as an interim target towards eradication of poverty and use the relative poverty measure — 60% median income — as indicator; to guarantee the sustainability of social protection systems and universal access to services of general interest; to strengthen the social open method of co-ordination to make it effectively deliver on social cohesion and inclusion objectives; to focus the employment strategy on decent jobs according to an active inclusion approach; and to ensure the 20/20/20 climate and energy targets will be met. Including these commitments in the final Europe 2020 strategy is essential for a number of reasons, including the fact that the EU must be seen to deal with the real hardship being suffered by large numbers of its people and the need to ensure the legitimacy of the European project among EU citizens, because these issues are critical in ensuring acceptance of the European project. Have members received our document?

We have indeed.

Fr. Seán Healy

That is perfect. I will continue by giving some background. The European Commission's original consultation document on the 2020 strategy was, from our perspective, deeply flawed. Social Justice Ireland made a detailed submission to the European Commission, the Irish Government and this committee which outlined our critique and also made 15 practical proposals for adjustments that would make a difference as the strategy was being developed. The European Commission's first overview of the responses received to its consultation document was strongly attacked by social and environmental organisations across the Union because it was misleading. The second summary provided by the Commission has been much more accurate, comprehensive and fair.

In preparation for the Council meeting starting this evening, the European Commission has produced a second draft of the Europe 2020 strategy, to which the Chairman referred earlier. Among other things, this draft proposes five key targets for the EU to be achieved by 2020, all of which we agree with and strongly endorse. These targets are at risk and need to be supported to ensure they move from the draft document into the final agreed document. These targets are for 75% of people between 20 and 64 to be employed, 3% of the EU's GDP to be invested in research and development, and the 20/20/20 climate and energy targets to be met. I am sure members already know these but just in case, I will repeat them. They are to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by at least 20% compared with 1990 levels, increase the share of renewable energy in our final energy consumption by 20%, and achieve a 20% increase in energy efficiency. To continue the list of the five targets to be achieved by 2020, the proportion of early school leavers should be under 10% and at least 40% of the younger generation should have a third level qualification; and 20 million fewer people should be at risk of poverty than is the case today.

This is the first time a concrete target for poverty reduction has been included in a draft strategy document of the European Union. According to information available to Social Justice Ireland, a number of countries have problems with this — either the idea of having a poverty target or the specific relative poverty target mentioned in the strategy. That is one of the reasons it is important for Ireland to be clear about where it stands on this and that it supports the setting of a target. The setting of a target means that things will happen as a result.

Our basic recommendations are as follows. Social Justice Ireland strongly urges the Irish Government to ensure the poverty targets are contained in the final strategy adopted. We also urge the Government to ensure the risk of poverty measure is used in setting these targets as this would go some way towards addressing the inequality that has been growing in the EU.

We continue to work with our colleagues in the Caritas Europa network in all 27 EU member countries to ensure these targets are adopted and to ensure the European Council agrees that social cohesion and inclusion be adopted as explicit objectives of the Europe 2020 strategy. We also urge that it commit to reducing poverty by 25% by 2020 as an interim target in the eradication of poverty; to use the relative poverty measure as an indicator; to guarantee the sustainability of social protection systems and universal access to services of general interest; to strengthen the social open method of co-ordination so that it can effectively deliver on social cohesion and inclusion objectives; to focus the employment strategy on decent jobs according to an active inclusion approach; and to ensure the 20/20/20 climate and energy targets are met, as I mentioned earlier.

In the longer term it is important that the EU sets itself a target of zero poverty, which could and should be attained. Caritas Europa, of which we are the Irish representative, is running a campaign which is seeking 1 million signatures throughout the EU to a petition to be submitted to the European Parliament later this year. The campaign, which is called the zero poverty campaign, seeks to have the EU adopt an ultimate target of zero poverty. We in Social Justice Ireland are leading this campaign as a fitting way of marking the European Year for Combating Poverty and Social Exclusion. Caritas Europa has a lead organisation in each of the 27 member states and we meet regularly to deal with such issues.

I thank Fr. Healy. Does Sr. Brigid wish to address the committee?

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

Not at the moment.

I thank the Chairman for arranging for Social Justice Ireland to appear before the committee, and I welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds. We looked at the document when it was given to us but the issue of social exclusion bypassed us, so it is important the organisation has made a submission in this regard. There is much merit in the points it raises. Our emphasis was on employment, which is certainly an important aspect of eradicating poverty. I commend Fr. Healy on his submission and urge the Government to consider the points raised.

I, too, welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds and compliment them on the good work they have been doing over the years. What they have presented to us today is a straightforward, specific and coherent set of objectives.

We have gone backwards to a certain extent in recent times. For example, the Combat Poverty Agency has been abolished, although this is not the best time in view of its being the European Year for Combating Poverty and Social Exclusion. Things will be more difficult in the absence of a specific agency for dealing with those issues. Has the agency done any work on achieving the re-establishment of the Combat Poverty Agency, or do the representatives have any suggestions in this respect?

The targets for 2020 in terms of social exclusion and cohesion are reasonable. In terms of the five key targets mentioned by Fr. Healy, Ireland would expect to be ahead in these areas. The spending of a percentage of GDP on research and development is current policy in the EU, as are some of the other targets. We are ahead of the target for 40% of young people to have a third level qualification. I imagine Fr. Healy is talking about minimum targets, but there must be enormous variation among countries, especially among the new member states. In a sense, however, the targets set for Ireland are less than what we have already achieved in some areas and less than what we are seeking to achieve in others. For example, we are seeking to achieve considerably more than the 20/20/20 target for climate change because we are pushing ahead with the smart economy and sustainable development. Thus, there is a certain contradiction there.

I am mystified as to why Germany should be opposed to the setting of poverty targets, as mentioned in the documentation, although I can imagine such reservations in the Czech Republic or similar countries. Sweden and Denmark are also mentioned as being opposed to the setting of targets. Fr. Healy might comment on that.

While I like the idea of moving ahead and obtaining 1 million signatures in the zero poverty campaign, zero poverty seems to be an unrealistic target at this point. Fr. Healy did not state what period of time is being sought. Is this about zero poverty? That is a desirable objective to seek to achieve but to what length of time do those million signatures relate? Will the new provisions in the citizens' initiative be used? That would allow the delegates to initiate a process in which there might be a realistic target, something they want the Commission to take on board, put on its table and agree to for perhaps the next year or so.

It is good to have Fr. Healy at the committee today and I welcome Sr. Brigid Reynolds. Fr. Healy and I have debated this issue before. I have two problems with it. Perhaps I am acting as a devil's advocate but I have a difficulty with the definition of poverty. From what I understand — perhaps Fr. Healy will explain it to me — 60% of median income is mentioned. Does that mean that when the average means we each have a big, 1m wide, colour television screen anybody who does not have a 60 centimetre-wide television screen is in poverty? If we all have cars of a certain size, does that mean one is in poverty if one does not have a car which is at least 60% of that size? If we all have central heating and get a month's——

The person considered to be in poverty usually has the biggest television screen.

Exactly. If we all get six weeks' holiday on the Continent, is one in poverty if one does not have four weeks? I am not being facetious but I have difficulty with the word "poverty" being based on the average. Perhaps, as the Lord says, we will have the poor with us always. However, I have some difficulty in measuring it in that way. When Fr. Healy and I debated this, perhaps ten years ago, from the level of poverty he spoke about then I would have thought that somebody who had a bicycle was poor compared to somebody who had a car. However, ten years before if one did not have a bicycle the situation would have been the other way round. I do not explain myself too well but my difficulty is that we will always have poverty if we take the measure to mean 60% of the average.

The second point is much more important, namely, taking European interests over world interests. There is no European comparison to be made with the number of people who are starving and dying, who go to bed hungry every night throughout the world. Not many people in Europe are in that situation. Nonetheless, when the world trade talks happen, we in Europe act in the interests of Europe against those of the Third World. If it is the case that the Third World will need much more food than is being produced at present — current figures intimate that the world population will go from 6 billion to 9 billion by 2050 — then European interests and the best interests of its citizens are not necessarily in the best interests of the citizens of the rest of the world.

My third point concerns the 2020 climate-energy targets. How will we create enough energy and enough food? We must probably move to genetically modified foods and use nuclear power. In many cases these are not acceptable to those who argue for the cases for which Fr. Healy argues. Does he have views on this? Does he believe that if we are to be able to combat world poverty then we must accept other factors such as nuclear power and genetically modified foods? How does he feel about such issues?

I welcome Fr. Healy's presentation. It is always thought provoking and interesting to listen to him. I also welcome Sr. Brigid Reynolds.

Fr. Healy's paper is very informative and useful to us and deserves consideration by the Government in advancing the agenda at European level. He rightly identified the necessity to have a co-ordinated approach to dealing with poverty, social cohesion and exclusion within society. Although we can make best efforts to develop policies around our budgetary process, this only scratches at the surface. Within the European Union we can share so much of the knowledge base and seek to achieve more through co-operation and that knowledge base.

I share some of Senator Quinn's analysis, which he outlined very well in terms of defining poverty. The term "poverty" is often relative and, if used in the wrong way, can misrepresent where real poverty lies. We all have our own understanding of poverty based on our knowledge pool, but it is very difficult to define it adequately. I am not sure I necessarily agree with the definition of 60% of median income. A definition may be based on the number one picks. However, a person with a relatively large income can be poor if his or her desires and demands are greater and, therefore, the definition must be based on certain levels of income that allow people to live their lives in a dignified way.

Defining poverty is an entirely different area but I am much more interested in the approach taken to deal with lack of educational attainment, dropping out of education, the societal issues that generate those responses and the approach the Government has taken. As Fr. Healy will know, through what one might term the boom years an effort was made to put a greater amount of money into what were considered to be socially deprived areas. Different Government programmes were put in place, such as the RAPID programme, the effort to deal with education of Traveller children and the empowering of communities through community development projects, and all of that. I would be interested to hear Fr. Healy's viewpoint on the effectiveness of that investment.

Many groups do their own analysis and audit but this may not be the best way to measure the success of that financial input because a proactive approach in policy development is required to deal with poverty. Every society has its own methodology of dealing with this. The approach we developed, as with so many other things we developed in the good years, was that we had money and started to throw it at the problem. This may not always have been the most effective way of spending that money. Ultimately, the experience in other countries shows that people themselves should be empowered but it takes a proactive approach and investment to achieve that.

I ask Fr. Healy to comment on what we have achieved and whether it has been value for money. I say that not to ask whether we should have spent less, but rather to ask whether we are getting the right level of inclusion and are working towards bringing a section of society to be able to fend for itself. We should have achieved that for the amount of money that was invested.

I welcome Fr. Healy and Sr. Brigid Reynolds and thank them for their presentation. Something struck me as I read and listened to the contribution. I attended an event yesterday at which Down Syndrome Ireland made a presentation to make politicians aware of its vote and how important it is. The point was made that much of the literature, manifestos and such that we use at elections goes over the heads of people and they do not understand them. Language is very important. One might consider what was written in the presentation today about social justice. The delegates have written to the Taoiseach urging him to ensure that the European Council spring meeting agrees to "guarantee the sustainability of social protection systems and universal access to services of general interest, strengthen the social open method of co-ordination". Do the delegates believe that the people for whom they work could understand that type of language? What does it mean? Perhaps they might comment on that point.

When it comes to EU strategy, we deal at European level. However, from the point of view of Government, what if the Taoiseach were to ring Fr. Healy today and ask him which two measures he would like the Government to implement that would impact significantly? Deputy Dooley just reminded me that Fr. Healy had that opportunity before but that was a different era. It happened in Cork. That presented various challenges for us.

The Deputy is not so bad himself.

If there were two measures that we could introduce as a Government that would significantly impact——

Some people guessed that was me.

The Deputy was socially excluded at the time.

I refuse to be led into this debate and I call on members to return to the subject matter under focus.

The inclusion policy worked in that instance.

I have tried to inquire about the Deputy's past many times.

If there were two measures that a Government could introduce that would create a significant reduction in poverty in Ireland, what would they be?

There have been several interesting comments from members that reflect their knowledge of the subject through working as public representatives elected by and directly accountable to the people at various levels.

The definition of poverty stems from one or two things. I refer to social exclusion and deprivation, which come from a lack of access to education, social back-up services, health services and a variety of other services. This is evident not only in this country, but throughout Europe. There is also the question of the lack of affordable or safe housing such that a person living in such a place can come to the conclusion that staying there is sustainable from the point of view of meeting mortgage repayments and so on. This is relevant for many people throughout the country and Europe at present. We are all aware of people and families throughout the country who may have children with special needs or special educational requirements and this can contribute heavily to impoverishing these people in their local community.

As Senator Feargal Quinn noted, Jesus said the poor will always be with us. This is and will remain true but the degree to which society must and is able to address these issues is relevant and important. I agree this should be done at European level and the aspirations are good in this regard. However, as Deputy Seán Power pointed out, the language may not necessarily resonate with the people. The point raised by Senator Quinn is whether one can have precise norms and percentages that apply arising from statistics.

I refer to another matter which is pertinent at this time. Following the 1929 Wall Street financial crash there was abject poverty throughout the United States. As we are all aware, John Steinbeck wrote about this at the time. Hoards of people roamed the countryside coming from the mid-west and everywhere, seeking jobs and displacing other people. There was great envy, jealously and strife at local level throughout the United States at that time. However, in comparison to Europe the leadership in the United State through Roosevelt was central and positive and kept bringing the people in a particular direction. Many people compare then and now and it is good to remember that change did not happen overnight. It took a long time and a great deal of convincing. A great deal of leadership was required and numerous interventions took place, including the new deal and the Hoover plans and so on.

The contrast with what happened in Europe was appalling. At that time in Europe there was a division in society and society turned on itself. Elements of society blamed other elements for reaching the depths. There was economic fall-out on a vast scale. Unfortunately, as we are all aware now, Europe did not handle it very well and it was a disaster. Many people believe this only happened in one part of Europe but this division in society arose throughout Europe. My point, reflected by the comments of the members, is that new issues are arising. There may well be norms but other issues arise which must be addressed as a matter of great urgency and it might not be possible in the short term to meet our objectives in every sense. However, we must recognise the magnitude of the task before us and do what we can to address it. I call Fr. Healy and Sr. Reynolds for their respective responses.

Fr. Seán Healy

I will provide commentary and responses and Sr. Reynolds will then take over. Before anyone leaves, I refer to one of the core issues. It is very important that people understand how poverty is measured. It is not measured in any way that was discussed here today. We must be clear when we are discussing poverty. There is an agreement among the 27 countries in the European Union about how poverty is to be measured and it has been signed off by all Governments. Research is conducted under the guidance of EUROSTAT and in Ireland it is done by the Central Statistics Office. It is not based on calculating averages under any circumstances, a point I wish to reiterate. If this were the case it would be absolutely true that one could never eliminate poverty. However, this is not the way in which it is measured.

Sometimes, I hear people say that because they live in Dún Laoghaire or Dalkey and because Bono lives up the road, people in these areas could be in poverty even though they earn €100,000 per year. That is not true. Permit me to explain. The calculation of poverty is measured by an estimate of the actual value of the income of each individual person in society. This involves a breakdown of income in all households. Net income is what is under discussion, that is, the money in people's pockets after tax is paid and welfare received. This is the disposable income available to people.

This amount is calculated in a household as follows: the first adult is allocated the value of 1 unit. A second or any other adult is measured as 0.66 and a child is allocated as 0.33. Two adults and one child would amount to two individual adults under these calculations, which are somewhat technical but this is how it is done. The result is what is known as equivalised income. Let us imagine it visually. One lines up all people in society from the lowest to the highest income earners. The average is not calculated, but one selects the person in the middle. That is what the median means. One selects the person in the middle and calculates the poverty line as 60% of that person's equivalised income. Therefore, if there are several millionaires who become billionaires, it has absolutely no effect on the median. The same person remains in the middle and the wealthy are still at the top of the income spread or distribution. It is very important that this calculation should be based on 60% of the median, which is what they have all signed off on and on which all the research is based. We advocate this method in Europe.

I will revert to the case of Ireland presently but Ireland has been making progress on reducing poverty in recent years. Considerable progress has been made, a fact we have acknowledged and recognised. However, there is still some way to go and we should not set low targets. The eradication of poverty is not about everyone having a 1m wide television screen, a souped-up car or six weeks holidays during the year. This is not how poverty is measured. Ireland uses an additional measure called consistent poverty. This includes several other measures of what society considers essential, such as having good waterproof shoes or a coat or being able to buy clothes or have proper food. There are ways of measuring these things. However, the basic line is the income line and this is the way it is done in Europe and it is the simplest way to do it.

I pointed out that it is possible to reduce poverty in this context. Let us consider the European reality. There are 80 million people in poverty below a certain income level throughout the European Union. A reduction of 25% of that figure is referred to in the draft document. That is what is in the draft Europe 2020 strategy. We are saying we should not let them take it out. It is very important that it is defended.

I take Deputy Costello's point very strongly because Ireland has been doing better than that. The next phase of the Europe 2020 strategy is supposed to be rolled out to individual targets within countries. Consequently, it would be critically important that if there is to be a reduction of 25% in poverty across Europe there should be a reduction of 25% in poverty in Ireland. In fairness, the overall numbers at risk of poverty in Ireland have fallen from over 20% to 13.8%. The overall number should fall by a quarter of that between now and 2020. It is not a difficult target; it can be done. If we could reduce the figure to less than 10% by 2020, it would be good. It should be done.

We have not been nearly as good at dealing with child poverty, the rate of which is far higher at 17% or 18% and affects many people. When one calculates the numbers, one finds if there had been no progress on poverty we would be at a different level today. In reality, initiatives taken by the Government have resulted in reducing poverty by 225,000 people. There are 225,000 fewer people in poverty today in Ireland than would have been the case if the percentages had not been reduced. That is an acknowledgement of serious progress. It is also a recognition that we have some serious distance to go, which is the other side of the argument and needs to be taken on board.

On the comments regarding the European reality compared to the Third World, Sr. Brigid Reynolds and I have both worked in Africa for more than a decade so we are well aware of the kinds of difficulties. It is critically important that progress be made on both fronts. The fact that there is a level of poverty in the Third World is no justification for saying we should not be tackling poverty in Europe. Of course we should tackle poverty in Europe and reduce it, but we should also be taking positions within the WTO talks and various other talks and agreements in place which would make a substantial difference to poorer people in the Third World.

The European Union should have a special relationship with Africa because all the colonial powers in Africa, with one small exception, came from the European Union. Ireland is well placed within this context because it was not a colonial country and is seen as a country which strongly supported emerging countries in Africa. I would like to see, within the context of the questions raised by Senator Quinn, Ireland putting some serious effort into supporting African poverty issues and addressing them within the international talks and so on. Ireland plays a substantial role and I acknowledge that its Third World aid is at a very good level, although it has been falling. In the last two budgets we argued it should not have been allowed to fall further. I strongly argue it should not be allowed to fall further. The target percentage of GDP set should be met.

In Africa, Ireland and the European Union there are four core values which should guide policy and should be worked for. One is human dignity. The second is sustainability, which includes economic, social and environmental sustainability. Equality is a critically important issue and includes human rights. The fourth is the common good. They are the four guiding values which we strongly argue should be at the core of the European Union's approach to development and its approach to development in Third World countries. It should also be at the core of what Ireland does.

In that context, another question was raised by Senator Quinn on the Third World and poorer countries, namely trying to achieve 20-20-20 goals. Nuclear power and genetically modified food were mentioned. It is much more important that the terms of trade be fairer. I have serious reservations about the kinds of colonisation of seeds in Africa which have been carried out by multinationals. They take seeds, patent them and then produce the next generation. The people who have lived in the area for thousands of years and have generated crops do not get any benefit from the patenting of seeds. I would like to see that issue dealt with.

On the issue of nuclear power, I remain to be convinced it is necessary. We have a serious energy issue and Ireland, in particular, has a serious energy issue which needs to be dealt with. It could be a discussion for another day.

I have to leave. I thank the witnesses for covering those areas. I apologise for not being able to stay.

Fr. Seán Healy

Deputy Costello asked a question, but I will address another issue first. Deputy Power mentioned reducing poverty in Ireland. I will deal with the language issue first because it is very important. If we were communicating with people whom we work with on a day-to-day basis, poor people, excluded people or those from Down Syndrome Ireland we would not use such language. If one looks at our website, one can see there is some documentation on our position on this. Communication is critically important. In the modern world, dealing with these issues at different levels requires that people be multilingual. When we send a letter to the Taoiseach, we know he will understand what the special open method of co-ordination is because we have discussed it with him. When we talk about 20/20/20 or whatever, he understands what those things are. When we talk about social inclusion and protection, and access to services generally, he knows what they are. That is why we can write to him using that language.

However, when we are dealing with people on the ground we use a different language which is appropriate to the group to whom we are speaking. Therefore, we explain the terms or use different terms to ensure people who are hearing what we are saying understand what we talking about and what the particular terms mean. It is a very important point. The presentation from Down Syndrome Ireland yesterday made the same point. We totally accept that and work strongly to try to ensure what we produce is understood.

On the two initiatives which were mentioned, people require three core things to be able to live life with some dignity. They need enough income, appropriate services to be available, such as health, education, social housing, elder care, child care and so on, and active inclusion in society. The five priorities I put on the table in Inchydoney have all been delivered.

Could Fr. Healy say that louder?

That is self praise. I am not sure about that.

Fr. Seán Healy

Some things have been done but there is an awful lot more to do.

I remember that from the slogan as well.

Fr. Seán Healy

There are things that have been done but there is more to do. When we look back over the last 12 years, we did not achieve all that we could have achieved. We are where we are, however, and we deal with what we are dealing with from here.

The first initiative would be to try to deal with the income issue. There are two parts to that. When we look at those at risk of poverty, more than half of them are outside the labour force altogether, they are not unemployed and they are not employed, they depend on welfare payments, such as pensions or disability allowances. To get people out of poverty, we must protect welfare rates. We can talk about our budget analysis, which was not positive, if the committee would like to.

The second issue relates to the next biggest group, the working poor. These people have a job but their household is in poverty. It is interesting that over 30% of all households at risk of poverty are headed by a person with a job. How do we target that group? The easiest way to do it is to give those households the full value of the tax credits to which they are entitled. We have had arguments with different Departments and the Revenue Commissioners about the costs of this but before the summer we will publish the most detailed study that has ever been done of this issue. It shows that it is not that costly to ensure people in jobs can benefit from the full value of the main tax credits to which they are entitled. Those are the two most important factors to address the issue of poverty on the income side.

On the services side, education is critically important. While it is true we have high levels of tertiary qualification, we also have high levels of school leaving.

There are other issues related to services that should be addressed. Deputy Costello asked about the Combat Poverty Agency and Deputy Dooley asked about targeted programmes. A great lesson we learned over the last 20 years is that where there are serious pockets of problems, such as poverty or drugs, an area-based, local, targeted approach is extremely effective in dealing with those. At the moment we are forgetting that. Many of those programmes are being dismembered.

I have serious problems about the way the drugs taskforce funding has been handled — a reduction whenever the problem is increasing. I also have problems with the targeting. The community development programmes are being restructured in such a way that forces them to dissolve themselves and join new cohesion companies at a county level, which are quite problematic in many cases. The locally-based initiatives are in danger of being seriously damaged because the boards are being dissolved and the volunteers are being let go. The connection of programmes to local areas is likely to decline, because they are only guaranteed for a year, and there is a serious failure of recognition of something that was doing well. We had clearly seen and understood that targeting had worked well in local areas and I am concerned about recent developments undermining that in the long run.

Within that context, we have not taken action on the Combat Poverty Agency specifically but we have highlighted the reduction in the support for many different agencies, not just Government appointed agencies but local programmes that involved people in a variety of ways trying to address the problems they have in their local areas.

The European Parliament has still not decided how the million signatures will be collected for citizens' initiatives. Instead of waiting for it, however, because it was the European Year Against Poverty and Social Exclusion, Caritas Europa decided to go ahead and collect the 1 million signatures. We will bring the signatures into the European Parliament later this year. We are on target to achieve the number and we will get it. We spell out on our website what we mean by the zero poverty target, we do not expect that there will be no poverty in five years, we set out headings such as jobs, education, services and income poverty and set targets for five year periods. We will try to get the income issues at least to zero.

The issues around affordable housing seriously concern us. The numbers on waiting lists are rising. It is appalling that we built so many houses in Ireland over the last 15 years but there is still a social housing problem.

The comments on the 1929 crash are true. I would add one point, it was not rescued until there was serious investment. The first few years of the response in the United States were as bad as in Europe and created bigger problems in 1930 and 1931. It was only subsequently, when there was investment, that things improved. There is a lesson for us today that we do not put off the investment.

We talked about the vision of Ireland and its guiding principles. It is important that what we do in the short to medium-term moves us in the right direction, not in a direction that we must reverse back from in five or ten years when the economy might pick up. Whatever we do on employment, investment, education, health and welfare, they should all move us towards the target we will set for ourselves.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

Deputy Costello expressed surprise that Germany is among the countries objecting to these targets. I understand the issue that arises for the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, is that the regions rather than the central government in German have competence for education and, therefore, she does not want to sign up to anything with which they will not be happy. I think that is a cop-out, however. One of the headline targets is raising the employment rate from 69% to 75% but, at the same time, Germany does not want to target education. I do not know how these concerns can be squared because without an educated labour force it will not be possible to create high technology employment. We will not reach the targets without investing energy and resources in education.

At present, the dropout rate across Europe is 15% and the intention is to reduce that figure to 10%, which is a very modest reduction. We do not measure dropout rates in Ireland, although we know that at least 18% of students do not complete second level. The fact that we have not measured the rate creates issues in terms of estimating resource needs. There has been a marked reluctance to measure literacy levels in Ireland, although an initiative in this regard is expected in 2012 or 2013. We are extremely concerned that Ireland is not examining this side of the education system.

What is the median income in Europe and Ireland? Income measurements can throw up completely different pictures because one can earn a certain income and be poor in Ireland but well off in Poland.

Fr. Seán Healy

That is a very important point. Income is calculated individually for each country but this is not done on a Europe-wide basis. The figure of 60% of median income is arrived at separately in, for example, Poland and Ireland. We know the percentage of the population in each country that is below the poverty line, which in Ireland is approximately €11,000 for a single household or €27,000 for a household of two adults and two children.

Do the figures provided by Fr. Healy represent 60% of the median income figure or the median income figure?

Fr. Seán Healy

They represent 60% of median income. That is the actual poverty line. It would be lower in certain eastern European countries but we also know that 80 million people across Europe earn less than 60% of median income in their own countries. The current draft of the Europe 2020 strategy seeks to reduce that figure by 20 million by 2020. We are simply arguing that we should hold on to the 25% target. In so far as objections have been raised, it is interesting that they have come from western European countries rather than poorer states.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

Significant objections have also been raised in regard to when and how the target will be measured.

The witnesses are surprised that the poorer countries are supportive and the western countries are not. However, the high percentage of people who are below the poverty line in the former would clearly result in a higher prioritisation of the issue.

Fr. Seán Healy

That is not really the case because the poverty rates in a lot of eastern European countries are not extraordinarily high. Their overall income levels are low and, therefore, 60% of median income is not significantly different. The average across Europe is close to 15%.

Ireland would compare favourably.

Fr. Seán Healy

Ireland is below that at 7.8% but we argue that we can still make progress. The latest draft of the strategy sets out the Commission's belief that each country needs to show how it will progress towards the targets. Consequently, we think it is important that the poverty target should be applied to all countries rather than it being a case of Ireland not having to do anything because it is below the average. We should be reducing the rate by 25% in the same way as other countries by setting three, five and ten year targets which we monitor as we proceed.

Sr. Brigid Reynolds

We should not leave it until 2019, for example.

That is an important point because all targets should be reviewed annually. One's credulity is stretched when one finds in the ninth year of a ten year plan that a target will not be met. I thank the witnesses for their interesting contributions. It is important in the current climate that we have this discussion and the joint committee will refer the substantial matters raised to our European colleagues.

If the witnesses venture again to southern beaches, they should be careful. I have often wondered whether the results of a certain coming together of minds were positive from either party's point of view.

Fr. Seán Healy

I went because I was invited and I would be very happy to attend any party's conferences or meetings to present our views. I would present an honest analysis of the targets I believe could be credibly achieved over a certain period of time by whatever group I was addressing.

That is an invitation to other parties.

Fr. Seán Healy

I thank the joint committee for inviting us. We were very pleased to have the opportunity to appear before it.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.05 p.m. and adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 2.45 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 March 2010.
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