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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN SCRUTINY debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jan 2008

Airport Charges: Discussion with Knock and Dublin Airport Authorities.

Next on the agenda is scrutiny of COM (2006) 820, a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and the Council on airport charges. On behalf of the members of the joint committee, I welcome Mr. Robert Grealis, chief executive officer of Ireland West Airport, and Ms Annette Kearney, marketing and route development manager. Also in attendance are representatives from Dublin Airport Authority: Mr. Oliver Cussen, deputy chief executive officer; Mr. Vincent Wall, director of communications; Mr. Tom Haughey, director of industry affairs; and Ms Mary Coveney, manager, forecasts and tariffs. They will also represent Cork and Shannon airport authorities to discuss this proposal.

Members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will hear a ten-minute presentation from each delegation, followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee. I call Mr. Grealis, chief executive officer of Ireland West Airport, to make his presentation.

Mr. Robert Grealis

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for giving us the opportunity to present our views on the EU proposal.

The late Monsignor Horan established the airport in 1986. It is owned in trust for the benefit of the people of the region and is a key facilitator of economic development in the west and north west. The trust pays no dividends to shareholders, any profits made are reinvested in the airport. We forecast serving approximately 700,000 passengers in 2008, 97% of whom will represent international traffic and approximately 11% business. We support approximately 1,000 jobs in the region and 900,000 bed nights for the tourism industry.

The approximate population catchment of the region is 1.1 million but the real catchment within that which we serve, within reasonable driving distance, is approximately 900,000. The airport is the gateway to the west and north west to which it provides direct air access. It has been growing for 21 years. In the first full year of operation, 1987, the airport served approximately 55,000 passengers now it serves that number in one month. Between 2007 and 2008 we introduced six new routes, which has doubled our scheduled route network and we continue to develop new charter services. A highlight of 2007 was the introduction of services to New York and Boston which is the first time that scheduled services outside Dublin and Shannon have been offered to the general public and the tourism industry in North America. We have developed from a standing start five years ago a charter season comprising approximately 90,000 passengers to over 20 destinations.

The Council's original proposal for the directive on airport charges puts Ireland West Airport at Knock outside its remit which sets the threshold for airports at 1 million passengers. The committee will appreciate, therefore, that we offer an independent view of the proposal. We have considered the proposal from several points of view, first, that of the Irish market and airport structure. There are nine airports within the jurisdiction among which our colleagues in Dublin Airport Authority control approximately 95% of passenger traffic and the non-State airports control 5% of which Ireland West has the largest market share at 2.2%, Kerry has approximately 1.3% and Galway just under 1%.

The proposal aims to standardise a system for regulation of charges across the European Union. A standard system, however, is not appropriate to such a diverse market place. It also suggests that it will improve economic competitiveness by ensuring that airport charges do not contribute to a non-competitive market. The market is already competitive and by and large is self-regulating on charges. Airlines, not airports, dictate the market. This is particularly so in respect of the economies of regional airports. The proposal also suggests EU concerns that charging systems will be used to maximise profits on the sale of State airports, stating that public authorities have an interest in facilitating charge increases at airports in the preparatory stages of privatisation to generate optimal revenues for the sale of these airports. Another mechanism could perhaps be found to monitor and regulate that circumstance rather than a blanket system of airport charges across Europe. We support the element of the proposal that aims to ensure consistency with civil aviation policy quality standards and equity.

Ireland is an island state on the periphery of Europe for the development of which air access has long been mooted as critical. This is even more critical for a peripheral region on the island. Approximately 78% of our international visitors come by air, making it obvious that air access is critical to our continued industrial, economic and tourism development. There has been massive economic development on the east coast, coupled with airline and airport expansion plans in Dublin and Belfast, creating a substantial industrial corridor along that coast. Ireland West Airport and the people of the west and north-west region are concerned about balanced regional development. We hope to see measures in future to offset this, whether through positive discrimination towards other regions or otherwise.

As a small international airport we must compete with hundreds of other airports in Europe, particularly as the Union expands. The major low cost airlines flying to destinations outside the Union, including far eastern Europe and north Africa, have intensified the competition which has led to market pressure to reduce aviation charges. We have reduced our charges in the past five years.

In addition to competing with several hundred airports in Europe for the same slot time for an aircraft, we compete with other Irish airports. The market here is dominated by one airport group and two substantial airlines. As a developing airport we must continually invest in our infrastructure and services and meeting the security and safety regulations, rightly being put in place at EU and Government level, is associated with substantial costs, which this EU proposal does not take into account.

We are concerned about the proposal because it does not adequately consider the need to develop airport capacity or to invest in security and safety systems. Any directive must take into account the long-term and permanent investment nature of airport capacity. An airline is able to switch its investment from one route to another as happened in the case of Shannon-Heathrow which moved to Belfast-Heathrow but an airport does not have that ability. Any proposal to regulate regional direct air access will be contrary to the principle of market forces and may result in loss of service to small regional airports.

Economic theory suggests that a large airport, due to its economies of scale and passenger numbers, would have the ability to be more competitive on market charges and airport charges in particular than a small regional one. Large airports based near capital or key cities in Europe are more attractive to airlines than regional ones. As a result, airlines dictate that regional airports must offer competitive charges. The EU proposal therefore is contrary to the reality of the market place. Why is it considering regulating charges for airports but not airlines?

The directive's scope is arbitrary and ineffective because it does not recognise these market conditions or the existing regulatory environments which differ between countries. There is a national regulator here which regulates our largest airport, Dublin Airport. The directive does not recognise the increased costs for small airports of adhering to such requirements. One size does not fit all. The original proposal applies a threshold of 1 million passengers per annum but discussions at the European Parliament suggest that this might move to 5 million which does not necessarily dictate market dominance. Any proposal on airport charges must seek to implement a system that recognises market dominance and ensure that this does not exist. In this situation, an arbitrary figure of 10% of market share would put approximately 50 airports in Europe into that category, with one in Ireland, and two, respectively, in the UK, Italy, Germany, etc. Again, it is very prescriptive as a proposal. It is too simplistic to believe that all airports set their charges in the same manner and do not look at what their competitors are doing. The reality is that we operate in an open market economy and therefore compete with each other. Cost models standardise the system of costing for airport charges, but again these change from airport to airport and country to country. In particular, such a directive does not recognise the social need of an airport infrastructure, particularly in a peripheral region.

On the scope of the proposal, the disclosure requirements could potentially breach confidentiality as regards commercial arrangements with airlines and airports and this would be a concern also. Finally, from an Ireland West Airport Knock perspective, we recommend the committee considers that the proposal should avoid a one-size-fits-all approach. It needs to recognise the long-term nature of the infrastructural investment needed at airports. It also needs to focus its principles on effective monopolies which possess excessive market power, and not just have a blanket system of imposing charges on airports above a certain level. We suggest that airports with under 5 million passengers or 10% plus of national market share are not in a position to exercise excessive market power.

I thank Mr. Grealis and call on Mr. Oliver Cussen, deputy chief executive officer of the Dublin Airport Authority.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I regret we were unable to attend before Christmas due to diary commitments. However, we are very happy to be here today to assist the committee and contribute to the debate on this important issue.

The aviation industry is recognised as a key enabler of economic growth throughout the world and contributes something like 8% of European GDP. The scale and speed of the development of airport infrastructure currently taking place in Asia, India and the Middle East, illustrates the need to ensure adequate capacity in Europe to protect our competitiveness relative to such growth areas. I am sure members of the committee are relatively familiar with this context. In an Irish context, as an island, airports play a pivotal role in national and regional development. We must ensure the provision of adequate infrastructure and the elimination of unnecessary costs and processes, as referred to by Mr. Grealis. Hence, publication of new draft European legislation relating to aviation last year was important to all industry and clearly it is something in which this committee has taken a keen interest.

The proposed airport charges directive is one of three papers published together as part of an airport package. Last week, the European Parliament adopted a legislative report accepting the amendments to the initial Commission text recommended by the Transport Committee. The draft text will now proceed towards its second reading, probably in April or May. The Dublin Airport Authority has been actively involved in the review process on behalf of the three Irish airports under its aegis, Dublin, Cork and Shannon, and has discharged a representative role also in the context of European airports. In this process we have worked closely with the Department of Transport and the key committees in the European Parliament. In this regard, I particularly want to acknowledge the assistance and effort of the Irish Members of the European Parliament, Mr. Eoin Ryan, MEP, on the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee, and on the Transport and Tourism Committee, Mr. Seán Ó Neachtain, MEP and Mr. Jim Higgins, MEP. Their work on the draft text has helped ensure the incorporation of revisions which were important from the perspective of the Irish airports, particularly Cork and Shannon, and indeed Knock. In this process we have worked very constructively with the Department of Transport. We have adopted a key role in discussions between the representative body of Europe's airports, ACI Europe, and European Commission officials and Members of the European Parliament in order to ensure the best possible outcome to this process.

The underlying rationale of the directive is that there is a need for economic regulation of airports to ensure non-discrimination and efficiency. The Dublin Airport Authority is fully in favour of good regulatory practice. We support non-discriminatory and transparent charges at airports. We believe in meaningful and effective consultation. We agree it is necessary to have timely investment in appropriate infrastructure, which protects the ability of our economy to grow and flourish. Our principal concern with this directive and regulation generally relates to the question of balance, an issue also touched on by Mr. Grealis. We believe it is necessary to achieve an appropriate balance between protecting the interests of the consumer and overburdening in particular smaller airports with red tape and administrative inefficiency. It adds costs for airports and airlines and ultimately for passengers.

The sections we took issue with in the draft text were those which added cost and complexity without any value for the customer, in our opinion. The DAA in this regard identifies the ultimate customer as the passenger. Regulation should ensure general economic welfare is safeguarded, where normal market dynamics do not apply. We want to provide adequate facilities for customers, both the passenger and the airline, and ensure the facilities we build will be appropriate and adequate for a reasonable period of time ahead. Because one cannot build half a terminal, it makes sense to build one to accommodate growth for a number of years. In considering such issues, airlines generally and in the nature of their commercial mandate, take a shorter term perspective to airports. However, airlines have the flexibility to shift aircraft from one airport to another overnight or indeed alter their activity or go out of business. If all decisions about what facilities are needed at an airport are predicated simply on what today's airlines say they want, there is a danger that in the future we will face an infrastructure deficit because of the inability to make adequate investment now for a reasonable period ahead. This is the context of much of the debate and hyperbole surrounding the second terminal, T2, at Dublin Airport. Our passengers tell us they want an improvement in service standards and we want to deliver. This requires significant urgent investment.

The interests of passengers and airlines are not always identical, although the airlines often say otherwise and are not willing to pay, very often, for the facilities their clients may favour. DAA wishes to build facilities of a reasonable standard to meet the expectations of a travelling public. We believe we should ensure that as the airport grows there are such things in time as people movers to allow travellers to move over extended distances, there are adequate basic facilities and the building is heated or cooled and that there is adequate circulation space. We do not believe that installing these is in any sense gold-plating, but simply meeting the reasonable expectations of the travelling public. As already mentioned, the original Commission text has been modified in some important respects, which we welcome from the viewpoint of Cork and Shannon in particular. I shall touch on those briefly before concluding.

The original draft said that all airports over 1 million passengers should be regulated. This would mean Cork and Shannon would be regulated and potentially Knock, in due course - Mr. Grealis has indicated the problems with this in terms of competing in the marketplace. This threshold has now been increased to a more reasonable figure of 5 million passengers per annum. Transparency was another issue which we were concerned with, and the initial requirement to provide very detailed cost reports to airlines. The DAA fully supports giving appropriate information on airport costs, and does this already. However, aside from confidentiality concerns, which are important, as mentioned by Mr. Grealis, the original provisions would have added an enormous burden in manpower and technology, particularly to small airports, the costs of which would have been passed on to users.

We are pleased that after review, the Parliament has reduced the requirements to the type of provisions which currently apply in more mature and developed regulatory environments. Our views in this regard were similar to those of the Department of Transport and the aviation regulator in Ireland and the UK.

Finally, turning to consultation, the DAA was concerned about the administrative burden, not just on airports, but as noted by Aer Arann at the committee's last meeting on this issue, on airlines also that would have to participate at each of the regulated airports they service if the original consultation proposals were followed through. We are pleased that this has also been moderated and there is a recognition that one size does not fit all. We retain concerns about some sections in the revised text. Pre-financing is an important issue, particularly for small airports which occasionally need to invest large sums a considerable time before the benefits are visible.

In addition, in regard to independent appeal provisions, we have previously put on record our view that there is a need for greater regulatory accountability than currently applies for Dublin Airport. We will work actively on the draft directive text with our colleagues at other airports and with ACI Europe to ensure that the interests of all stakeholders in this process are protected. We look forward to working further with the members of the European Parliament, the Department of Transport and other parties in this regard.

We referred earlier to the airport package. Another regulated part is the action plan for airport capacity and safety in Europe. We retain some concerns that the underlying approach in the two papers is not consistent. The directive focuses on measures to keep costs down in order to sweat assets. In contrast, the action plan is directed to ensuring there is adequate capacity to meet future demand so that airports can grow in line with the Lisbon Agenda. However, the draft directive does not explicitly make provision for adequate investment in infrastructure for the future while the action plan does not specify that expansion costs need to be recouped by commercial operators. We believe that in such legislation the future development of appropriate infrastructure at airports must be safeguarded in the interests of the economic communities which they serve - regional, national and Europe-wide - and for the protection of the Irish economy.

The DAA is progressing its investment plans at Dublin in a cost-effective and efficient manner. Pier D and Area 14 are the first steps. We believe that following a period of under-investment, and resultant difficultly for passengers as well as congestion at the airport, we are now set on an investment programme of approximately €1.2 billion between now and 2009 to transform Dublin Airport.

I thank Mr. Cussen for that detailed presentation. I congratulate Mr. Grealis on the great job being done at Ireland West Airport and the enhanced services being provided. From a business perspective, Mr. Grealis referred to the 95%-5% split in passenger traffic between DAA-controlled airports and non-State airports. Given that restriction and with the major dominance being on the east coast, does Mr. Grealis see the advantage of using hub airports, which are used by many airlines? Do the airline operators have too much power vis-à-vis the airport companies? Are the airports subservient to the airlines?

Mr. Robert Grealis

The reality is that the market is dominated by the airlines rather than the airports and this is very much the case at the smaller airports, as noted by the representative of the Dublin Airport Authority. The larger airport groups that serve the major capital cities and hubs, such as Dublin or BAA airports in the UK, are in a better position to negotiate terms and conditions with airlines and to attract routes because those destinations are attractive in themselves. It is far more difficult to attract airlines to serve peripheral regions on a commercial basis.

We have seen evidence of this in recent times with the loss of the Shannon-Heathrow service, where Aer Lingus decided that it was not as commercially profitable as other opportunities that presented themselves. We view this as a concern as it was a commercially viable route but it was not commercially viable enough. As a regional airport, this is an issue we strive against all the time. While we can prove a market demand and that a route would be viable for an airline, other more profitable alternatives are available to those airlines within Europe.

It is a particular concern with regard to hub interconnectivity. Thankfully, Shannon has, with the CityJet service to be launched next month, reconnected itself to an interconnecting hub. However, the west and north west is still without interconnection. To date, while we believe it is commercially viable, airlines do not believe it is commercially viable enough. This begs the question whether an international PSO service should be considered to service regions where such connectivity is required but does not exist or cannot currently exist on a commercially viable basis.

As an island nation, given the level of supports provided due to the peripherality of parts of the country, does Mr. Grealis foresee any role for the DAA working in a sense of partnership with regard to a regional hub? There is a massive imbalance of passengers coming to one airport and huge capacity at another. Is there a possibility of developing teamwork between the two? As Mr. Grealis noted in his statement, the customer - the people who pay for the tickets as distinct from the airline - is king. Is there a level of co-operation that would enhance Knock airport in the future?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

The principle is that the airlines and airports throughout the country should seek to develop the social and economic infrastructure to the greatest extent possible. The DAA as currently constituted embraces Dublin, Shannon and Cork airports. It has a mandate to operate as an entirely commercial enterprise, which is the way it is set up on a legislative basis. Its revenues must exceed its expenditure by a sufficient amount to invest in infrastructure - that is the only way it gets money. This makes co-operation restricted in regard to, say, Knock airport.

Over time, however, we have invested heavily in Shannon and Cork airports to facilitate them to develop traffic. A new terminal opened in Shannon in 2001 and a full landside facility opened in Cork in 2005, so there has been significant development. We have also provided support for route development at Shannon and there has been a significant change in the whole passenger structure, with Ryanair being the resultant providers of the service there. In that sense, we were very anxious to develop those two airports to provide a regional service.

I believe that in the past there has been informal co-operation with Knock airport, which we have provided with various services. However, on a practical level, the commercial mandate of the company, the way it is structured and the restrictions on various forms of State aid and so forth make it difficult to have a more active role in that regard.

I welcome the delegations from Knock airport and the Dublin Airport Authority. I believe this directive is anti-competitive and my view has been strengthened having listened to the witnesses. Market forces should dictate.

None of the witnesses referred to the freight cargo threshold of 25,000 tonnes. This could affect Knock airport if it goes over 25,000 tonnes and is still under 1 million passengers. We are all more familiar with passenger traffic but how do the witnesses envisage the directive operating with regard to cargo?

I fully agree with the point on confidentiality. If all the airports in this country had the same throughput of, say, 2 million or 3 million passengers, or over 5 million passengers, one wonders how this would operate. Everybody's books would be open so how would competition operate? Would all parties have to operate on the same basis?

This measure is anti-competitive and there is a confidentiality aspect. Market forces should be allowed to dictate.

Mr. Robert Grealis

From our perspective, the cargo element of the directive would not be of concern because cargo traffic at Ireland West Airport is minimal at this stage and it would be some years before we would be close to the 25,000 tonnes per annum threshold.

What tonnage of cargo comes through Dublin Airport?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I can let the committee have the information but I do not have it immediately to hand. I am told it is approximately 140,000 tonnes per annum. Like Mr. Grealis, we would not foresee a major adverse impact on cargo. We are committed to trying to develop cargo as we recognise its importance. A substantial proportion of cargo at Dublin Airport is belly-hold cargo, which means it is carried in passenger aircraft rather than dedicated aircraft, although the latter too represents a significant element of cargo activity at Dublin Airport. We have met representatives of the Irish Exporters Association and other representative bodies to see how we can better meet their needs. One aspect of the medium-term planning for Dublin Airport will be to develop cargo facilities further. Shannon and Cork airports already operate cargo facilities. It is a key element of our plans given the nature of modern industry, necessitating the transport of electronics and other small items. The speed of transfer offered by air transport is becoming more crucial in the high value added sector.

On anti-competitiveness, Mr. Grealis made the point that it is important that airports under a certain size, whatever definition may be decided upon in that regard, have the freedom to operate in the marketplace, attract airlines and secure the best deal they can. That should facilitate competitiveness. In airports such as Dublin Airport, the logic of regulation is that they are large, dominant providers. The position across Europe is that it is appropriate, to ensure fair and transparent process, that airports of such size should be subject to independent regulation in terms of the level of charges imposed.

Does the Dublin Airport Authority have difficulties with particular aspects of the directive?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

We do not have a difficulty with the directive as it relates specifically to Dublin Airport. We recognise that the trend in Europe and internationally is to impose regulation on airports of the size of Dublin Airport. Some 23 million passengers used the airport last year and its relatively dominant position in the market, as Mr. Grealis observed, means it is the major provider of air transport in the State. We have no difficulty so long as the process is transparent.

However, there are changes we would like to make to the regulatory process, which we have articulated publicly, particularly in terms of overall accountability. Regulation should not be significantly burdensome and should not involve reams of paperwork and so on. We hope to see that aspect simplified. However, we have no problem with the principle of an independent mechanism for determining charges.

I welcome the delegates. I too have concerns about this directive. I am not opposed to regulation per se because it is appropriate and welcome in some contexts. However, I am not sure whether it is possible to regulate to the degree in which this directive seeks to do. I am not convinced it is achievable.

I am also seriously concerned that this directive will raise costs for all sides. The representatives of the airlines expressed similar concerns to those expressed by the delegates today, but from their own perspective, when they appeared before the committee. How can we avoid these charges being passed on to passengers? We put the same question to the representatives of the airlines but the answer was not clear.

I have concerns too in regard to data disclosure, especially in respect of the type and volume of data involved. How will this facilitate competition? There will be significant implications in terms of cost and time. I am worried we may be going down a road that is never-ending.

I have a question for the delegates from Ireland West Airport. Will this directive be of any assistance in allowing the airport to compete in the market? I am not convinced it will. An issue that fascinates me is that the directive allows for modulation of charges between airports. What is the delegates' interpretation of this and how do they see it working? Is it merely a loose phrase to indicate that some airports can, in certain circumstances, operate differently from other airports?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

The cost of regulation is an important issue. I do not have a figure for the cost to date to us of regulation but it is substantial. The regulatory process works by having the regulator transfer the costs to the regulated entities. In the context of this particular directive, what we have sought to do at a representative level is to simplify the arrangements as much as possible, although one might contend that they are somewhat complex and cumbersome. We sought to simplify the process significantly so there would be a lesser burden of costs on airports, particularly small airports.

One suggestion we made was that consultation should not take place every year but only when some major infrastructural initiative is to commence. The cost of the preparation for such consultation is pressing for airlines. The removal of the regulatory burden from the smaller airports means that, for now, Knock, Shannon and Cork airports are not subject to this regulatory process. The Dublin Airport Authority will continue to strive for the greatest possible simplification while retaining the fundamental principle that there should eventually be an independent authority to oversee the level of charges.

Will the Senator remind me of his other questions?

I asked about data disclosure and the modulation of charges.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I share the Senator's concerns on data disclosure. It is something we would like to see modified. I recognise that the particular arrangements with airlines are commercially sensitive. What we have tried to do in the past is to deal with costs on a generic basis without revealing the specifics of contractual arrangements with any customer. One must be careful not to trespass into that area because confidentiality is an important consideration. It becomes a greater issue the greater the demand for consultation and the greater the regulation. We hope simplification of the process will reduce that risk to some extent.

I ask my colleague, Mr. Tom Haughey, to address the modulation of charges.

Mr. Tom Haughey

Senator Kelly asked a general question on the rationale for modulation. The initiative to regulate smaller airports came from the airlines, which wanted to know everything that goes on at airports. It is a great tribute to the European Parliament and the Council members involved that what was not a good proposal from the Commission has been heavily modified. As my colleague said, we greatly appreciate the assistance we received from the Irish MEPs in this regard. While a cut-off point of 5 million is not ideal, it takes all the regional airports in the State out of the mix for some time.

The modulation refers to the fact that there is a suspicion, which is partly what drives the entire initiative, that people are paying variations on the charges without any objective criterion. It has been our practice for several years to publish not only our airport charges but also our incentive schemes on the airport websites. We are transparent in that respect and the information is available for anybody to view. However, the view is that this is not the general practice in Europe. Modulations are being allowed in areas such as environmental issues where, for example, there are noisy aircraft or aircraft that are heavily polluting in one form or other. We can modulate charges to penalise such services or to reward others.

Senator Kelly also asked who will pay. Our regulator allows the cost of regulation to be levied as a pass-through cost on airport charges at Dublin Airport. The cost of regulation will always end up with the end customer, that is, the passenger. This would have imposed a heavy cost on Cork and Shannon airports. Moreover, the proposal has a three-year implementation period and as a Mayo man, I sincerely hope Knock airport will approach the figure of 1 million passengers by then. If so, this also would have been a cost for Knock.

Mr. Grealis should refer to Senator Kelly's question.

Mr. Robert Grealis

The disclosure requirements are substantial, particularly for a small airport that might lack the IT systems required to break down such costs. Ultimately, as the representatives from the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, have outlined, one has two choices. One either passes on such costs to the passenger or one absorbs them. On a similar basis to the DAA but coming from a different angle, we are owned by a trust and our only purpose in being profitable is to re-invest in the business. Consequently, we set our charges on the basis of the need to re-invest and if additional charges arise, we either must forgo future investment or pass them on to the passenger. Either way, the passenger will pay with either a reduced service level or a charge that will be passed on via the airline.

As to whether the directive will help smaller airports to compete, I believe the answer is "No". Airlines, rather than airports dictate the market price and if anything, the directive would give airlines more weight in respect of market competition and thus may be anti-competitive to smaller regional airports. As the Dublin Airport Authority is regulated already, the directive's principles already apply in Ireland. The DAA made an accurate point on modulation to the effect that there are suspicions that certain airports do not treat fairly different airlines that operate on the same basis. We are very keen to ensure that modulation will be allowed and applied in respect of areas such as the environment and emissions and this will be a policy of Ireland West Airport in future.

I welcome the witnesses and have found their comments helpful. This joint committee has a specific role in understanding directives from the perspective of subsidiarity, which essentially sets the agenda on effective management vis-à-vis legislation and directives. In other words, it pertains to whether the Commission should involve itself in a matter that might be better or more appropriately dealt with within national parliaments. Do the witnesses believe that dealing with this issue on a Europe-wide basis is relevant? Do they believe there is adequate scope to deal with the issue through Ireland’s regulations or regulator? Do they discern a benefit to taking a Europe-wide approach? The witnesses should respond within the context of my belief that the purpose of airlines is to generate profits, while the purpose of airports is to serve the needs of the community of the region or city in which they are based. I am somewhat concerned that this proposal has been driven by certain airlines to assist them to deal with the competitiveness issues they face. As it puts the cart before the horse, I seek the views of both delegations in this regard.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I will ask Ms Mary Coveney to deal with this issue, in which she is intimately involved.

Ms Mary Coveney

The Deputy raised some interesting points and it is a highly interesting argument. The Dublin Airport Authority and Mr. Grealis both have noted that in its initial form, the directive would have placed an enormous burden on airports and small airlines at a regional level. As for how the proposal's rationale was related to subsidiarity, the Commission stated that the absence of a consistent method to regulate airports from one state to another created a need for an overview at a higher level to ensure a level playing field. However, it is a question of balance. While one might wish to prevent discrimination or the creation of anomalies, if so doing adds enormously to the cost burden of many airports, which operate in a marginal business within a highly competitive market, it would pose a real challenge.

Much of the work undertaken in this regard by the Dublin Airport Authority on behalf of its three airports has focused specifically on the needs of Cork and Shannon airports. As it happens, because the existing regulatory framework in Ireland already regulates Dublin Airport, it would be less affected than Shannon or Cork. Nonetheless, we devoted much time and resources to this issue because we believed it would be highly significant. While the subsidiarity argument was used in the creation of the directive, at a minimum the Commission went too far in the initial draft. Although it has been improved substantially, we retain some concerns regarding certain areas and much further work is required to improve them.

Is Ms Coveney satisfied this meets the subsidiarity test?

Ms Mary Coveney

It provided the initial rationale. The Deputy's point that it was driven strongly by the agendas of some airlines is correct. In particular, some larger carriers were highly active in trying to ensure minute regulation of all activities, which would not have been in the best interests of the regions or airports concerned. While one can argue whether such a level of intervention is required, at a minimum, we would say not as originally formulated.

Mr. Tom Haughey

Deputy Dooley's question was framed in the context of subsidiarity at European level. This was not an appropriate initiative from the European Commission. Had the proposal not been amended in such a significant manner, in Ireland it probably would have introduced regulation for Knock airport although the Irish regulator had decided it was not necessary to regulate Cork or Shannon airports because they were too small to have market power. In the United Kingdom the regulator made exactly the same point when it decided to stop regulating Manchester Airport, which has more than 20 million passengers, because it thought the airport had no market power. Nevertheless, the Commission proposed a mandatory regulation for airports with only 1 million passengers. It definitely exceeded its appropriate remit in this regard.

I refer to national legislation, which sets out key criteria for airport authorities to protect large airlines against smaller airlines that the authorities might consider to be giving a better service. However, there are strict guidelines, which the regulator manages, in the absence of effective competition. I fail to understand how the Commission's proposal to add another layer of bureaucracy and regulation will benefit anyone. It is not as though it will become involved in the competition between two airports. Apparently, it is attempting to deal with the potential lack of transparency between two customers to the same airport. I would have thought this could be dealt with more effectively at national level because effective competition and fair play for all operators are matters of concern for citizens of each state who use airports. Therefore, the principles of subsidiarity dictate that one should deal with this issue at the lowest level. Is it that some European states lack effective regulation? Is that part of the problem?

The DAA obviously opens up its books and shows them to the regulator who decides how much profit the DAA as the dominant player in the country, can make annually.

Mr. Cussen says he is in favour of that. Is it because this would give the DAA protection from airlines looking for special deals in that the DAA could say that since this is what the regulator has said, this is what it must charge? If the DAA's charges, including its landing charges, are too expensive, Knock Airport or the regional airports will benefit from it. Is there a certain amount of protection for the DAA because of the regulator, which leads to the airlines being unable to barter? Does it suit the DAA?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

I know what the Senator is saying but what I said was that where there is a very dominant player, namely, Dublin, I did not have a problem with the principle that there should be some form of independent oversight of a dominant provider in terms of the level of charges. I think Deputy Dooley also made this point.

We have a number of problems with the regulatory process in Dublin. We have stated where we would like to see changes because they relate to the fundamental proposition put forward by the Senator. I know this is an argument he has probably heard ad nauseam from us at different times but, nevertheless, it is valid. At just over €6 for passenger charges, our level of charges is among the lowest in Europe.

That is fine provided the full implications of that are understood. The only way the DAA can provide the infrastructure at Dublin Airport to remedy the deficit is through what it gets from charges and commercial revenues. The commercial revenues from shops and other areas are determined strictly as a balance. In other words, a balance is made up by what one has got from the airport charges which is decided by the regulator. Effectively, the regulator determines the whole lot in a till. He sets a return on capital for us. If that is inadequate, which we believe it is at the moment, it restricts the ability to build the infrastructure we want.

We are unhappy with the regulatory process from the perspective that we would have sought and, on a number of occasions, have called for an increase in passenger charges of €2 per passenger on average over the next ten years. The number of passengers is quite large. If we got just €2 per passenger over the next ten years, we could fund approximately €2 billion of investment but we have not got that. That makes us unhappy with the outcome of the regulatory process and the way it has worked.

We want changes to ensure that it works more effectively to allow us to build the infrastructure for the country. As Mr. Grealis said, the money earned by Dublin Airport is not going to any shareholder. The Government has not taken dividends from the company for a period because it is reinvesting it in the airport and its infrastructure.

In summary, we are unhappy with the way the current regulatory system works to finance infrastructure at Dublin Airport. However, we recognise the principle that a dominant provider should be regulated.

I have an observation on the commercial activity of the airport. Mr. Cussen spoke in respect of the T2. I have no doubt that there is massive commercial development within that, involving thousands of square feet of retail. Does the DAA take a benchmark percentage of the turnover or is it a rental agreement first cut? What is the general rule of practice to determine the maximum return for the DAA?

When one looks at the airport, it is very much like a massive shopping mall. Everywhere one goes, people are spending. The longer people stay in airports, the more money they spend. Does Mr. Cussen agree that this is heavily subsidised with, for example, the charges on airlines? What percentage would he equate?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

That is exactly what it does. The single till works on the basis that one takes commercial revenue, which is the shops and all the other activities, puts it together with the airport charges and basically divides them by the number of passengers. That gives one the charge per passenger.

What we must project outwards over a period is how much commercial revenue we expect and how many passengers we expect. In a sense, the passenger charge is determined as a residual of that sum. In respect of how regulation works, we would prefer if the balance was different. I believe it is 70:30 at the moment in the sense that commercial revenue is approximately 70% in that order, while aeronautical revenue is 30%. It would be much more sensible if it was 50:50. The current situation is an imbalance in the process.

Is there any independent regulation in respect of the levy and what different outlets charge because, in some cases, there can be massive variations from one airport to another in respect of operators where they charge customers? I have no doubt that the DAA, which is an independent body, can assess if value for money is being achieved there. In some cases, customers do not recognise value for money. However, if people are spending money in airports, be it on parking charges or any ancillary services offered, huge margins of profit can be taken in certain cases. These may not directly go into the DAA's proceeds but they can impact on the experience of a traveller coming to Dublin Airport.

Mr. Oliver Cussen

Yes.

Has the DAA a mechanism which ensures that people coming to the airport are getting value for money but still gives a return to the tenancies assigned by it?

Mr. Oliver Cussen

The way it works is that there are concessionaires at the airport which would be certain kinds of shops. They basically pay a percentage of their turnover as the rent to the airport authority. Other than that, they are free to charge their own charges. That would also apply to catering and provisions like that. They are subject to regulation outside in terms of the consumer and consumer protection bodies but there is no independent regulation of the actual prices by the airport. What we require is a turnover rent from them. That is how this works.

We try to benchmark the charges for other services we provide, for example, car parking, to downtown prices in other airports.

Do members have any other questions?

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to attend this meeting and welcome the delegation.

We are under time pressure today. I thank Mr. Grealis, Mr. Cussen and their colleagues for their presentations and for answering our questions today. The discussion has been very informative and will certainly help the committee in respect of producing an overall report. Obviously, this will have an impact and we are very thankful for a very frank discussion.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.50 p.m. until noon on Tuesday, 12 February 2008.
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