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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 19 Jan 2012

Western Balkans: Discussion with Lord Paddy Ashdown

I ask members to ensure that their mobile telephones are turned off, as there have been problems in the past with broadcasting and sound quality. I have received apologies from Deputies Joe Costello and Joe O'Reilly and from Senator David Norris.

Today we are holding a joint meeting of the foreign affairs and the European affairs committees and myself and Deputy Breen will chair it between us. On behalf of the European affairs committee, I welcome our colleagues from the foreign affairs committee to today's meeting. I am sure it will be a very good meeting. This is something we have done occasionally in the past in response to issues in which we have a joint interest, and I am delighted we are doing it again this morning.

The only issue on our agenda is issues facing the western Balkans region. Ireland and the committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas have a very good track record on this area, particularly as regards the stance our Government took in the early 1990s when people who needed to leave that region were looking for new homes and a place in which they could be safe. Our country was able to provide that. More recently, our committees took a strong stance on the development of the relationship between Serbia and the European Union and with regard to what we believed had to be done beforehand, which we believe made a contribution to the advancement of peace and stability in that region.

As a result, we are thrilled to welcome Lord Paddy Ashdown to our meeting this morning. He will need little introduction as we are all familiar with his record as a Member of Parliament, MP, for the Liberal Democrats and then as its leader between 1988 and 1999. He was made Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in 2000 and a peer. He has told me it is a title he is looking to disavow and not use here in public, but I might get in trouble if I do not at least acknowledge it. More importantly for this meeting, afterwards Lord Ashdown was the High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina and the European Union's special representative in those countries from May 2002 to January 2007. When he was leader of the Liberal Democrats he had a strong and public interest in what was taking place in that region, so he was able to continue that role.

I conclude by noting that while Lord Ashdown was born in New Delhi, he grew up in Northern Ireland. In page 9 of his autobiography he describes himself as being Irish. As a result he is particularly welcome to this meeting. He goes on to say, however, that being Irish he is therefore dedicated to the proposition that a good story should not be spoiled by too much concern for the truth.

He is one of ours.

We can welcome the first part of the statement and look away from the second part. However, he has spoken and written on many occasions about being Irish and growing up in Northern Ireland and what that part of his heritage meant for his career as a public representative and the work he did elsewhere. I will now hand over to Deputy Pat Breen.

I thank you for facilitating this meeting this morning and making good use of the time of both committees, which is extremely important. The Western Balkans issue links both committees. You omitted one attribute of Lord Ashdown, the fact that he is a fluent speaker of Mandarin Chinese. I do not know when he gets the time to do all of this but outside the Balkans there is a big role for him in the future in terms of relations with the Chinese as well.

As Lord Ashdown knows, Ireland is a strong supporter of EU enlargement in general. We favour the greater integration of Europe and it offers the best path for the Western Balkans. There has been significant progress in recent times, and I welcome the recent breakthrough achieved by Bosnia and Herzegovina on 28 December 2011, when the leaders of the six main political parties agreed on the formation of a state government and last week elected the Prime Minister, Mr. Bevanda.

With regard to Serbia and Kosovo, Ireland has supported Serbia's EU candidate status, but we are concerned about the recent violence in northern Kosovo. It is to be hoped that it will not block progress in improving relations between Belgrade and Pristina and Serbia's path in improving relations with neighbouring states.

The members of both committees are keen to hear Lord Ashdown's views and our time is limited. I have read a great deal about Lord Ashdown, although I did not read the book in full. The region is one of great complexity and in the 1990s he was one of the leading advocates for the international community to take decisive action on what was happening in the Balkans. This was happening in the middle of Europe in the early 1990s. The European Union was created for peace, but words such as "ethnic cleansing" really only came to life for us at that time. Many people born in that area have lived through times of many violations of human rights. I commend Lord Ashdown on the initiative he took at that time. It was very important for the future of the Balkans.

I am obliged to give a warning about privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and rulings of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(1) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person(s) or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I welcome Lord Ashdown and invite him to begin.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I thank the Chairmen and the committee for the privilege of having been invited here today. It is a great pleasure to be here. I particularly pay tribute to Ms Edwina Love, who has taken such trouble to ensure the arrangements for bringing me here were smooth and well worked out. It allowed me to bring a young colleague, Mr. Alasdair Ward-Booth, who is following me for the day. I had not met him before today. He is sitting behind me.

I also pay tribute to the role Ireland has played. It was a tremendous supporter for me when I was in Sarajevo as the High Representative and I am very grateful for the continued support the Irish Government always gave me for the difficult things we were trying to do. Ireland is not one of Europe's largest countries but it has punched well above its weight, for example, when it came to insisting that Ratko Mladic be arrested before we moved forward on Serbia. Ireland's role in working within the European Union on Balkans issues is one of which members should be proud. If this country's drive in this area springs from the work of this committee, individual members have a right to feel proud of the work they have done in that respect and for which I am personally very grateful.

The Chairman stated that a story should not be overly influenced by the factual nature of all the bits that are contained in it. I will be quite gloomy, a little blunt and rather straightforward in relating a story. I am from the North. My mum was a good Protestant girl from Rathfriland on the Hill. What was not known about me, at least until 1998 when, as leader of the Liberal Democrats, I came here to see the Taoiseach – I cannot remember on what business but it had something to do with Northern Ireland – people here learned that I am the great, great grandson of Daniel O'Connell. This is a fact of which I am proud and it is known in my family. A press conference was held for me and I was sent out to see the great man's grave on the outskirts of Dublin. My accent is a result of being sent over the water to school in England. When I went to England first I had a broad Belfast accent and my first name comes from those days. As I was saying, I was driving out to the graveyard in the company of an Irish Government driver. I sat in the back of the car and it was lashing with rain as we travelled through the streets of Dublin to visit the great man's grave. In the manner of drivers the world over he spoke to me over his left shoulder. Members will forgive me as there is nothing worse than a foreigner coming to a place like Ireland and pretending he can imitate the accent. However, the words of the driver must be spoken in a Dublin accent. He said: "I gather you are the great, great grandson of Daniel O'Connell." When I said I was he asked if I knew what used to be said about O'Connell. While I knew perfectly well that he was known as the "Liberator", I wanted the driver to say it so I replied "No". He pointed out that it used to be said that one could not throw a stone over an orphanage wall but one would hit one of O'Connell's children. Clearly, when O'Connell was described as the father of the nation it was meant in more than the metaphorical sense. That was the best political put-down I have ever suffered. At any rate, it is a great pleasure to be here.

To become a little more serious we all know the tragedies of the Bosnian war. They are etched on our minds on the modern history of Europe. Two tragedies of the Bosnian peace have followed, one of which relates to Bosnia while the second relates to Brussels. If I may, I will speak of them in some detail in the ten minutes available to me to make an opening statement.

One could argue very cogently that in the first 12 years of the Bosnian peace, which commenced in 1995, Bosnia-Herzegovina was the poster boy for how to carry out a successful intervention. When I took over as High Representative in 2002, seven years after the terrible Bosnian war had concluded, 1 million refugees had returned home. For the first time in history, refugees were not simply left washed up where the war had left them but were allowed to return home and they did so. As a young soldier in Belfast, I watched as Catholics were burned out of Ardoyne. They did not return, whereas in Bosnia 1 million refugees returned, even to that Golgotha, Srebrenica. In the 11 years after the end of the war there was complete freedom of movement everywhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Freedom of movement does not exist in Cyprus 30 or 40 years after the island was divided. Moreover, since the end of the Bosnian war, fair elections have been held without violence. They may have been overseen by the OSCE but they were run by the Bosnian authorities. Only now is the Basque country in Spain experiencing such a complete absence of violence during elections. In the first 11 years or so after the war we began to create in Bosnia-Herzegovina the light level structures of a state. I remember returning from Bosnia in 2006 and commenting that we have not succeeded anywhere else in the world in post-conflict resolution and the building of a stable peace. When I state that this period ended in 2006-07 it sounds as though I mean it ended when I left Bosnia but I do not believe there is any particular coincidence between the dates. It just happened that for 11 solid years until 2006, thanks to the European Union and international community and, above all, the courage of Bosnian politicians and their people, Bosnia followed a consistent dynamic, which was about cohesion and moving slowly towards unity and creating a stable peace. It is a terrible tragedy that since 2007, that dynamic has been allowed to be reversed.

I will be blunt about Brussels. While we often place the blame on Bosnian politicians and they carry some blame for what has occurred because responsibility for their country lies with them, do not believe Brussels escapes blame. Over the years that have followed since 2007, Brussels has presided over the unstitching of every single one of the steps forward we made in one form or another. The hard work done by the Bosnian people and my predecessors as High Representative over 11 years when they created institutions of state has been allowed to be unstitched or is at least beginning to be unstitched. In 2007, it was suddenly felt that the job was done, we no longer needed to be involved in Bosnia and we could assume a role of benign oversight without being closely engaged. I stated at the time that Bosnia was held together by two magnetic forces, as it were, one of which was the Dayton peace agreement and use of the High Representatives and Bonn powers. By the way, when I left my post in 2006, I stated that the High Representative's office should close because I believed we could move forward. The second magnetic force was the draw or pull of the Brussels institutions, both the European Union and NATO. The pressures that would draw Bosnia forward along a path that was already established would carry the country the rest of the distance over a period. However, the moment this draw waned or was removed, Bosnia returned to the opposite dynamic, namely, one of fissiparousness and break-up rather than unity.

All of the steps we took over that period have been allowed to be weakened in one form or another. The independent taxation authority and introduction of value added taxation, arguably the greatest achievement in those years, is being allowed to be weakened, particularly as Republika Srpska draws up parallel institutions to run its own taxation authorities. It has created an institution which simply requires it to unplug from the state institution and re-plug into the Republika Srpska institution. The creation of a single army under the control of the presidency is being weakened day by day. Above all, the creation of a single state judiciary with a single state prosecutorial service is being threatened almost daily as these advances begin to be unstitched. On almost every front, the dynamic of unity has been allowed to reverse into a very dangerous dynamic of disunity. The consequence of this reversal is that separatists are now having far too great an influence on the internal climate in Bosnia and the European Union has done far too little to prevent this trend. I will address what the European Union should do in a moment.

The process of reversal was initially centred on Banja Luka and the personality of Milorad Dodic, the Prime Minister of Republika Srpska. However, in Bosnia, action and reaction are equal and opposite. As Milorad Dodic and the separatists in Republika Srpska have been able to basically get away with unstitching all the work we did to create the light level state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so the Croats in Herzegovina have naturally started to do the same thing. It is now the case that the Bosniaks, that is, the Bosnian Muslims, in parties such as the Party of Democratic Action, SDA, have given up on the State and are putting most of their effort into the politics of the federation. Bosnia, instead of moving towards statehood, is now on all three fronts beginning to move towards its decentralised structure. While the entities have to sit side by side, the weakening of the state, which the European Union has done nothing to prevent, is an extremely dangerous development for Bosnia-Herzegovina. This waste and reversal of 11 solid years of work by the international community is a tragedy for Bosnia. The truth is that Europe now has more instruments of leverage and influence in Bosnia and Herzegovina than it has anywhere else in the world. It has its own High Representative, a member of the European Union Community, European Union special representatives and police missions and a huge amount of aid goes in. If Europe cannot stop, within its own borders, the deleterious movement of Bosnia and Herzegovina towards a dangerous situation, how on earth can we claim to have an influence beyond the borders of Europe? If the institutions of our foreign affairs, the external service, is unable to influence Bosnia in a direction beneficial to itself and to the European Union, how on earth can it claim to do so elsewhere in the world?

I am being very blunt now but it reminds me of 1992. Members will remember what happened in 1992. Mr. Poos said this was the hour of Europe. It was not; it was the hour when Europe stood aside and became a bystander to genocide and the United States had to move in. This is a tragedy for Bosnia but I also think I am bound to say, it is a tragedy for Europe.

The failure to use the levers we have is now leading to a very dangerous situation. What is that dangerous situation? Will Bosnia return to violence? My answer to that question is "No" but for the first time, I cannot now exclude that possibility. If members had asked me that question two years ago, I would have said I could not see Bosnia returning to conflict. I now cannot wholly exclude that possibility. It is not likely in my view. My view is that if Bosnia was to begin to track towards reopening conflict, we would see that happening a long way before the event and we would be able to take action of one sort or another to prevent it from happening, although I am bound to say that Europe has not proved very good at taking action of that sort ahead of events.

I cannot tell members what might happen in such a febrile situation - if, for instance, as I said to Bosnian colleagues, a grenade was thrown into a mosque in Doboj on a Friday night. Coming from Northern Ireland, I know what a febrile political situation can result in by accident, so I cannot say that is possible but I cannot say now that it is impossible.

The far more likely case is that while the rest of the western Balkans regions move forward towards Europe, Bosnia tracks back to being a black hole of dysfunctionality, criminality and corruption, which is what is happening. I do not think that is helpful. We will pay the price for the contagion of such a centre of dysfunctionality and corruption. It is through the Balkan pipelines that much of the drugs and many of the trafficked women arrive in our inner cities. We are not immune from the consequences of this. The situation in Europe will be dangerous if we cannot find the means now to reverse this.

What should we do? There are levers available to us and we should use them. Frankly, I think Brussels and the external action service should be much more muscular and energetic about using them. I am told there is no appetite for this among the chancelleries of Europe. I do not think it is the job of Brussels to sit there and wait for the chancelleries of Europe to find the appetite to intervene in Bosnia in an effective way. I think it is up to the institutions in Brussels to formulate the plan and then try to get backing for that. When I was in Bosnia, if I wanted to move forward on combining the army under state control, I formulated the plan, I got Brussels to agree with me and then I went around the governments of Europe building political support. One must be active about this process and not passive. There are levers we can use. We can use the lever of aid.

The biggest lever the European Union has completely failed to use, because it regards Bosnia and Herzegovina as just another accession country like Poland and Hungary instead of one that has come out of a conflict, is to make the creation of a functional state one of the conditions for moving forward on the stabilisation and association process. At present the constitutional reform required in Bosnia to create the light level state and to move it beyond the position of Dayton, so that it can become a functional state, is something which is excluded as one of the requirements for the European stabilisation and association process. When I was there, I said to Brussels that if it would allow me to make the creation of a functional state in Bosnia one of the ESA conditions, I can do it. It said that it did not fall within the ESA and that it was following the same policies it followed with Poland and Hungary. It seems to me self-evident that to join the European Union, one must adhere to some basic standards of functionality.

If a Bosnian interior Minister wants to sit with the Minister for home affairs in Britain or Ireland, he must be able to make agreements on which he can deliver in Bosnia. That is a requirement of functionality. I think the European Union should be much more muscular about making constitutional change to create a functional, albeit light level state, one of the conditions for progress for Bosnia on the European stabilisation and association process.

Second, we should be very much more brutal about isolating the separatists. I do not see any reason Europe's High Representative, Catherine Ashton, should go to Republika Srpska to speak to Mr. Dodik whose avowed intention is to undermine and create the break up of Bosnia and Herzegovina European state. The Republika Srpska has its own representation office in Brussels. If it wants to have one, that is fine but why should we speak to anybody but the representatives of the Bosnian state? We should be much tougher about that. The moment Europe speaks to one of the prime ministers of one of the entities rather than to the state, it says to the Bosnian people that we believe the entities are proto states, which is the point they want to make. We should talk to and work with people who wish to strengthen and create a light level state in Bosnia consistent with European policies and not with those who are not.

The third point I want to make, and arguably the greatest, is that we should use our leverage in the region. The truth about the Balkans region is that the most important thing is not what happens but the linkage between things that happen. We wanted to prevent Croatia from being as it was in the mid-1990s highly destructive in its attitude to Herzegovina, the southern part of Bosnia. By giving Zagreb the impetus, the encouragement to move towards Europe, we made it a price that it did not interfere with its next door neighbour.

The key to Banja Luka lies in Belgrade. Belgrade must be prepared to say to Mr. Dodik that he must adhere to European policies and that it will not tolerate him, official or unofficially, encouraging the break up of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The truth is that Belgrade wants Banja Luka as part of Serbia about as much as Dublin wants Belfast and for many of the same reasons. It wants to move towards the European Union and I see absolutely no reason the European Union should not make it a requirement of Serbia's accession process that it supports European Union policy in the preservation of the integrity of a neighbouring state recognised by Europe and with whom it must have proper relationships. We should also insist that Mr. Tadic should deal with Sarajevo rather than Banja Luka. That is a minimal requirement and if we were to do that, I think we might be able to turn this thing around.

I will finish now because I have gone on for a certain length of time and I do not want to in any way close off questions. I will finish by saying that we have allowed Bosnia to become an abscess. It is not an abscess outside the boundaries of Europe. It is not Belarus, Ukraine or a distant place. It is inside the boundaries of Europe. It is an abscess I fear that is already beginning to affect the future, the personalities and the inter-ethnic tensions within Bosnia and Herzegovina but the contagion of that abscess could easily spread wider. I do not presume that includes conflict but I cannot exclude the possibility. It was Bismarck who said the Balkans are not worth the bones of a Pomeranian grenadier. It was proved twice to us in the last century the unwisdom of that statement. We ought to take steps to make sure we do not have to learn it again in the early years of this one.

Co-Chairman (Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I thank Lord Ashdown for his contribution. I now open the meeting to members. Lord Ashdown is flying back this afternoon so we are constrained by time, but I will group speakers to ensure everybody has the opportunity to contribute.

I extend a warm welcome to Lord Ashdown. We take delight in his presence and the large turnout, the best in a long time, shows the level of interest in his contribution. My colleague, Deputy Timmy Dooley, and I are colleagues in the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, ALDE, group in the European Parliament. The Fianna Fáil Party is linked to ALDE, so Lord Ashdown's colleague, Mr. Charles Kennedy, is a colleague of Senator Jim Walsh and our Chief Whip, Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, and others in the Council of Europe.

Lord Ashdown's contribution is comprehensive and is a wake-up call to all. I was an election supervisor in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1989 and I could see the ethnic cleansing inDerventa in the Republic of Srpska It was in a bad state at that time and I do not know what has happened since. They are very suspicious and are very proud of their region. I am not surprised there is growing dissent in the region. I hope that Lord Ashdown's statement gets coverage throughout Europe. I hope MEPs will be aware of his remarks as it is important that the region of Bosnia-Herzegovina is maintained and developed as a democratic state. Lord Ashdown made a major contribution to it in his work in recent years. It is vital that the European Union ensures that state becomes a reality before the accession of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Before states join the European Union, we must ensure they comply with democracy.

With such a political pedigree Lord Ashdown would have a great chance of getting a Dáil seat in counties Kerry or Clare.

I join my colleague, Senator Leyden, in saying what a great privilege it is to have Lord Ashdown appear before the joint committees. We respect the work he has done in the Balkans and his statement today is an enormous contribution to our understanding of the urgency and complexities of the situation.

Many of us have followed Lord Ashdown's interesting career down through the years and take this opportunity to wish him well in the future. Lord Ashdown referred to the failure of the institutions of the European Union and I wonder if it would be helpful that these joint committees of the Oireachtas call on the Irish Members of the European Parliament to ensure the Parliament gives priority to focusing on the stabilisation process in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We have the privilege of chairing the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE. Could we, in that role, do anything to address the very serious problems that Lord Ashdown identified?

We are looking forward with enthusiasm to the Irish Presidency of the European Union in 2013. We will have a series of priorities for that Presidency. Would it help the situation if Ireland were to indicate at this early stage that a priority of our Presidency would be to focus on normalisation and stabilisation in the regional generally?

I, too, welcome Lord Ashdown. There is no doubting his enthusiasm, dedication, commitment and action during the course of his period in high office. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank him for attending today. There is no doubting his heritage, as he wolfed down two slices of soda cake during breakfast, like any good Irishman. Lord Ashdown is an impressive person and we are delighted with his presence.

His report was startling and I would like him to explore and report on the institutional powers that remain in the European Union to coerce a peaceful outcome in the event of a further flashpoint in the region. Have the European institutions the legal capacity to intervene in the form of direct action in the event of a repeat of the episodes of 1991 and 1992? That was some years ago, but that is the corollary in that it activates another type of concern across the European Union in that the inaction of the institutions in terms of involvement in direct action and intervention and their inability to demonstrate a capacity to intervene peacefully and establish a firm, direct action response in the event of an atrocity of the scale of what happened previously create concerns about the capacity or willingness of young people to pick up arms and take action.

I would be grateful for Lord Ashdown's views on Britain's role in Europe in light of recent events and if Ireland and Britain have common cause, in light of our close alliance, both geographically and economically, in the context of future amendment of the European treaties?

It is a privilege to listen to Lord Ashdown's first-hand knowledge and vast experience of what has been going on in Bosnia-Herzegovina for many years. I was a teacher before I became a politician and we had refugees from Bosnia in the school. It was interesting that they returned home, as this was always their intention. They were waiting for the opportunity to return home. I am a strong supporter of Irish neutrality but I think there comes a point when one is looking at ethnic cleansing and genocide where we must look at neutrality from a humanitarian perspective. I think the situation was allowed to continue for too long before there was intervention.

I acknowledge the work of the Irish Bosnian Group, some of whom are present today. The area has been forgotten. That group's work has been very good in trying to keep the matter on the agenda.. Its members are in touch with me. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade which received a delegation from the Israeli Parliament yesterday. There was a sadness when listening to the intransigence of the speakers and one asks oneself if there is hope. However, this morning, having listened to Lord Ashdown, there is hope of moving towards peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

I do not think anybody accepts that the Serbian authorities did not know where Mladic was all those years. It was a political and diplomatic move. While not wanting to do down Serbia, I think the authorities there played a very clever game and were rewarded for what they did. Some members of this committee are also on the Council of Europe and we will get a report on Bosnia-Herzegovina next week. I would like practical suggestions as to what we as a group can do collectively to restore the integrity of the state of Bosnia.

I, too, congratulate Lord Ashdown on his presentation and his clear understanding of the situation from his work in the region. Committee members have visited that area on a number of occasions and have a flavour of the issues he has raised. It would appear to everybody that European institutions have been distracted, that the impetus to move to European cohesion has been suspended and that this is more serious in that region than anywhere else. Lord Ashdown has correctly identified the western Balkans, in particular, as having played a less than positive role in history, not as a result of something the people did themselves, but as a result of the failure of others, outside and in the immediate area, to recognise in time the consequences of what was happening. This has repeatedly been brought to the attention of Oireachtas committees, which have made recommendations about what might be done to continue to encourage those involved to take a positive path.

I wish to make a point that applies not only in the context of this conversation, but in the entire European context. In the past, we all had a vision for Europe. We have been constantly reminded in the last ten years that Europe is at a crossroads. It has been at a crossroads for long enough. The lights have changed and it is time to move on. All EU member states, including Ireland and the UK, have to take full responsibility for ensuring the stabilisation of this region remains a priority.

What is the optimum position to adopt? We have to be sufficiently encouraging to convince Serbia to come within the circle. At the same time, we have to ensure Serbia maintains the standards required to remain within the circle. We have to walk a tightrope. I would like Lord Ashdown to give us some information on what might be our best position as we proceed on that sensitive issue.

I welcome Lord Ashdown. His contribution has been terribly sobering. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade has been having a detailed discussion about the applications of Serbia and Croatia for membership of the European Union. We have gone along with the notion that they are both worthy of incorporation into greater Europe. My colleague, Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, has suggested that some of Serbia's motives and gestures are fraudulent. I would not go down that line. I tend to think that genuine efforts of conciliation and reconciliation have been made with regard to Srebrenica. Various Heads of State have visited areas that were problematic or controversial in the past. Lord Ashdown's reference to a hand grenade going off in a mosque in Doboj has reminded me starkly of the horrors of the terrible explosions in the square in Banja Luka.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I mentioned it as an example of something that could happen.

Ireland took in programme refugees who were injured in the terrible shelling in Banja Luka. It would be interesting to invite Lady Ashton to outline to the committee her perspective on the issue. It would allow us to balance our position with Lord Ashdown's position. It is difficult enough for us. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, under the chairmanship of Deputy Pat Breen, has taken a particular position on Serbia and Croatia. We have not been exposed to Lord Ashdown's perspective on Bosnia-Herzegovina to date. In order to strike a balance, it would be nice to think we would be able to get Lady Ashton to address the committee in the relatively near future and give us a global overview of the matter.

Co-Chairman (Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I will call Senators Walsh, Healy Eames and Clune and Deputy Mac Lochhlainn in the next group of speakers. If anybody else signals, we will get them in.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I thank members for their kind comments. It is a privilege to be here. I am grateful to Senator Leyden for leading his colleagues in welcoming me. Others followed through. We can take that as read. It is fully reciprocated. It is a pleasure to be here.

I hope I did not give the committee the impression that what has happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina is irreversible, because that is not the case. There was a famous occasion at the end of the Austro-Hungarian Empire when it was said that the difference between Vienna and Berlin was that in Berlin they said things were serious but not catastrophic, whereas in Vienna they said things were catastrophic but not serious. This is serious but not yet catastrophic.

I think it would be a good idea for Lady Ashton to attend a meeting of this committee. She is a dear friend of mine. I have campaigned with her on several occasions. I do not find it comfortable to be criticising the work that is being done by the European Union. This is too important for me not to be very blunt about the dangers of the things that are happening. We can discuss what we should do in a practical form. Some members have asked me to answer that question. I will try to do so.

It seems to me that the reversal of this dynamic is at the heart of this. I remind the committee that for 11 years, the dynamic was towards cohesion in Bosnia, the resolution of problems and the creation of a light level state. Nobody is talking about a centralised state in this context. We should be talking about that. When Bosnia achieves the sustainable statehood that is achievable, it will not look like Britain. It will look like Belgium. That is not a particularly bad example. The Belgian answer in the world involves a highly decentralised state. In many cases, a degree of dysfunctionality is accepted in order to create the balance of powers necessary to hold together a multi-ethnic society. It is not unlike what one sees in Belfast. It is a much appropriate model for the future. We are not talking about a decentralised state. We are not talking about the removal of the entities. We are talking about a light level state which, at the state level, is able to fulfil its functions as a member of the European Union community.

It is the direction in which Bosnia is going, more than the precise milestone we happen to have reached in that direction, that is worrying me at the moment. I repeat that it was going in a constructive direction for 11 years, but it is now going in a destructive direction. It is about the separation of the state. I do not think Mr. Dodik, who is the prime minister of Republika Srpska, has a date circled in the calendar for when he wants separatism. That is not what he is doing. He is following the policy that was pursued by Milo Dukanovic in Montenegro. He is ensuring that everything he does makes the state dysfunctional and unworkable, in the hope that we will lose our patience, just as we did in Montenegro, and let the dissolution of Bosnia happen. That is a clever - the Bosnian word is mudro - policy for him to follow. He is not pushing this. He is making the thing completely unworkable. Too many people in Europe, even at chancery level, are saying we should give up trying to hold Bosnia together because it is unworkable. It is absolute nonsense. It seems to me that the reversal of that dynamic is so important.

I would like to address some of the other questions. I do not want to take up too much time. Other questions will need to be answered. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl asked whether it would be useful for the European Parliament to pay more attention to this. Yes, it would. I hope the Parliament will pay more attention to it. My worry, which has been reflected in some of the comments of members, is that we are sleep-walking our way back to a pre-1992 situation, in a sense. I will come to the violence issue in a moment.

I was asked what Ireland can do when it holds the Presidency of the European Union. The British Government, as part of the coalition agreement there, made Bosnia a key element of its foreign policy. I think William Hague is a good Foreign Secretary who has followed through on that commitment with as much energy as he can. He does not have much support as he tries to follow the kinds of policies I have been talking about. Ireland should try to make it a foreign policy aim of the European Union that substantial progress should be made in moving the western Balkans towards Europe. Above all, it should create circumstances which could help that to happen in Bosnia in due course. That would be really important. I hope Ireland will consider doing that.

Deputy Keaveney used the word "coerce". Perhaps I made too strong a statement. I am not sure we are at the point of coercion. At this point in the process, it should be a question of leveraging and encouragement that is muscular when it needs to be. My experience of the Balkans is that coercion does not always lead one to where one wants to go. I accept there are sticks that have to be used. I would prefer the carrots to be used in a more muscular fashion. There is a need for more conditionality about the application of huge amounts of European money. When they used to ask me if I was saying they would not get aid from NATO if they did not create a single army, I used to say "Yes, that is right". If they suggested that was blackmail, I would remind them that my taxpayers were not willing to spend their money on them if they were going to stay as they were. I told them that if certain things could be achieved, we would be generous in helping them to create that. It is better to take that kind of line.

I do not believe we will be talking about arms in the near future. I do not believe an armed intervention is a likely outcome. My own view is that when these things occur, one can see the trend far enough ahead. It was wise of the European Union to maintain a EUFOR presence, albeit a minimal one, because it serves as the ultimate backstop. Over-the-horizon reinforcement is available and that is sufficient for the moment. If the situation gets worse, we will have to take other steps but that scenario is not imminent. If we were to get too dramatic about that, we could create contrary effects in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would use the means of leverage and encouragement but always be prepared to use the mailed fist if violence returns. It should, however, be invisible and held behind our backs. Using it would be a tragedy and I do not predict it will occur.

I have been asked to speak about Britain's role in Europe. To do so would require another half hour. Suffice to say that as a passionate European, I was disappointed by the decision of Prime Minister Cameron to exercise the veto in the manner in which he did. It was in no one's interests, including those of Britain, to use the veto. The Prime Minister did not have to use it and Britain is trying to find its way back from the position he took. It is no good for Britain or Europe if Britain is isolated in the European Union. The relationships we can have with Ireland and other countries within the European Union is a key part of assembling a future in which my country can prosper. I am extremely disappointed with the position that has been taken, although I believe it is one from which we can find a way back. However, doing so will require much wisdom and a certain amount of humility.

To respond to Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, Ireland has a tremendous and proud reputation of neutrality. Irrespective of whether one agrees with its position, it is a matter for Ireland. There is no doubt that, given from where Ireland has come, everybody understands its position in this matter. At the same time, Ireland has a very proud reputation for the work it has done in peacekeeping for the United Nations. Neutrality and peacekeeping sit perfectly happily together. My view on this, which is relevant to that, is as follows. Ireland's engagement, through whatever means, in ensuring we have a sustainable and peaceful state in Bosnia is perfectly proper and extremely advantageous. One of the revelations of modern times and the interdependent world in which we live is that the idea that one will depend on collective defence alone is redundant. If one considers the interdependent world in which we live, one must realise that increasingly and especially with regard to weapons of mass destruction we share a destiny with our enemy. We now have the concept of common rather than collective security, which was the thing that enabled me, as a British diplomat, to participate in the disarmament talks in 1970, as a result of which we significantly reduced the amount of nuclear weapons held by both sides. We did so because it was in our common interests.

I believe the factor that allowed peace in Northern Ireland was that both sides realised they share a common destiny and that this was no longer a zero sum game. They recognised that if they played such a game, they would only destroy themselves. It is the revelation of the common destiny of the people of Northern Ireland that created the significant step towards peace. It is the failure of Israel and its neighbours to realise that they share a common destiny that is an impediment to peace in Israel. Unhappily, we have not yet reached a position in Bosnia where all three sides recognise they share a common destiny within the Bosnian state. In nearly all cases, post-conflict stabilisation cannot take place until the generation which ran the war has moved away and a new generation has come through. Absent a clear defeat and clear victory, the generation who ran the war will always use the peace to pursue the aims of the war. One saw this clearly in Northern Ireland and one sees it still in Bosnia. The sadness of Bosnia is that the generation that runs the country today is made up of exactly the same people who ran the war. That is one of the problems and the real worry is that I do not see the younger generation seeking to take power or take over in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Anything we can do to bring on the younger generation of politicians will speed the process towards reaching a long-term solution. Perhaps this is something in which Ireland can engage.

Deputy Durkan was correct to use the word "distracted". I am worried that we are sleep-walking into this and I am glad the Deputy used the term "wake-up call". I also share his view on the Serbs, one of the great nations of the Balkans. The Serbs are very gifted, highly intelligent and immensely brave in many ways and have, if I may say so, shown great acts of courage. Deputy Byrne expressed a similar view. The decision of Serbian Prime Minister, Boris Tadic, to turn up at an event marking the tenth anniversary of Srebrenica was a very brave act. Incidentally, one of the bravest politicians I know in Bosnia and a man of the future is Dragan Cavic, a former Prime Minister of Republika Srpska who probably sacrificed his political career by turning up at Srebrenica where he told Serbs that they had done it and needed to understand that. It took a German Chancellor 25 years to visit Auschwitz after the war. Dragan Cavic turned up in Srebrenica in the middle of a Muslim ceremony and told Serbs that they had done it. That was an act of great personal courage. The members present should not play the game - they are much too intelligent for that - of putting all the Serbs in one basket. We need to recognise that black deeds were done on all sides in Bosnia-Herzegovina and targeting the Serbs is not helpful.

I hope the joint committee will invite Lady Ashton to come before it at some stage. She and her officials have a different view to express and it is important that members hear a balance of views.

To return to the central question, on which I will conclude because others wish to ask questions, of what we should do, the practical things we need to do to reverse the current dynamic are, first, to be more muscular about our conditionality. We should provide assistance to Bosnia-Herzegovina to the extent that it moves in a direction which would help it become a member of the European Union because membership of Europe is the only future it can have. Second, we should include functionality. We should state that as part of the European stabilisation and association conditions, the functionality of the Bosnian state is one of the criteria which will be measured. This gives the entities of Bosnia-Herzegovina the incentive to move towards creating more functional, state level institutions rather than putting all their eggs in the entity baskets, as they are doing at present. Third, I would not close the office of the High Representative until the proper conditions have been met, which is not yet the case. The office and the Bonn powers should be removed offshore. We do not want them ever used again. In so far as Bosnia moves forward, it should do so with the European Union and at the hands of its politicians rather than at the hands of a foreigner using the Bonn powers to drive the process. I would, however, keep the Bonn powers in reserve to stop Bosnia moving back. One needs to have that legal ability as Deputy Keaveney noted. One needs to maintain the legal ability under UN Security Council resolution to intervene in extremis. It is, as it were, a “break glass in emergency” policy and it is important to have it as a backstop to stop the country slipping backwards. Finally, one must use the leverages of the neighbouring states of the Balkans. While I do not believe there is a problem with Herzegovina, there are separatists among the Serbs who are calling for a third entity. We need to put pressure on Zagreb, which has played a very constructive role so far, to ensure this separatism does not develop.

I return to the point that the key to Banja Luka lies in Belgrade. Part of Serbia's conditions for moving forward towards Europe should be that it follow and vocally, actively and energetically support European policy in a neighbouring state and in no way, either above or below the surface, give comfort to separatists in Republika Srpska. Having this as a condition of Serbia advancing towards EU membership would help enormously in the process.

I thank the Chairman and join in welcoming Lord Ashdown who I note comes from Rathfriland. Many years ago, my home town of New Ross twinned with Newcastle, the neighbouring town of Rathfriland.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

People in Rathfriland are certainly not in love with Newcastle.

We will keep that quiet. Lord Ashdown provided a comprehensive overview. He is an expert and, as was acknowledged, has played a constructive role. It is disconcerting to hear of the EU's lack of enlightenment when tackling this issue. I agree with the remarks on the integrity of states and I am glad that Lord Ashdown welcomed my colleague, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl's comments. When we assume the Presidency of the EU next year, it may present us with an opportunity. If any country should be highly conscious of the integrity of the state, it is ours.

Lord Ashdown referred to using our influence in the region. Where is the best pressure point on which to bring our influence to bear? Is it in Serbia's accession talks or elsewhere? Lord Ashdown referred to Montenegro as possibly being a catalyst for events in Srpska. Would the example of Kosovo also be an incentive, given that the international community rushed quickly to recognise its separation from Serbia?

It is great to have Lord Ashdown present. I thank him for sharing his considerable insights with us.

He likened Bosnia to an abscess, given is potential for contagion. Europe has so much potential for financial contagion, we do not need anything that would also threaten peace. He wrote about this matter with the late Richard Holbrooke as long ago as 2008. While he has proposed useful solutions, he also mentioned the importance of linkages. As a former EU High Representative, what linkages does he have with the current High Representative? I am conscious of that person's power, in that he has more power in Bosnia than any other officer in the country and can fire any president. When one relinquishes a role, is there a building on prior learning and prior work?

A great deal of Saudi money is being invested in Bosnia in terms of, for example, building mosques in Sarajevo and urban and commercial development. Could this have a radicalising effect on young Muslims in Bosnia?

Recently, I attended an event in Brussels at which the Serbian leader spoke about the country's sadness, given that no babies were being born there.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

Where?

Serbia. Our country has many problems, but if a country has no birth rate, it has no future.

In terms of Serbia's candidacy to join the EU, how is the former's relationship with Kosovo progressing? Will Serbia have done enough to achieve candidate status by March?

I apologise to Lord Ashdown, as Senator Reilly and I were late. Unfortunately, our party's press conference on the fiscal compact clashed with the start of this meeting. Senator Reilly will join us for lunch and contribute then.

I have followed many of Lord Ashdown's interviews. His good friend Valéry Giscard d'Estaing keeps the committee well briefed on the growing concerns about emerging issues in the Balkans.

During Christmas, politics pretty much shuts down and one has a chance to catch up on some books and documentaries one should have read or watched. For example, I reminded myself of the Second World War era and the growth of Hitler, sectarianism, right-wing nationalism and so on. I am concerned that the current economic crisis in Europe could feed into right-wing nationalism in the Balkans and eastern Europe in general. Austerity is impacting across the Union. The concerns over Serbia are obvious - civil rights, human rights and the attempt to destabilise Bosnia. At European level, how do we bolster the more progressive elements in the Balkans while not strengthening the right-wing elements, that is, giving them an opportunity to claim that someone is doing business with outsiders and undermining the national interest? Lady Ashton has a considerable role to play in this matter, but Ireland holds the chair of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE. In an attempt to stabilise the region, can we play a constructive role by reaching out to those who are feeling vulnerable and paranoid about their national interests?

I welcome Lord Ashdown. I will only make a comment, as he has covered this issue in his contribution. He mentioned 1992, when it was pointed out that there was no one to ring if one wanted to contact Europe. Since then, we have set up structures, installed a High Representative and created other offices. Without being critical, we need to do more. Are the offices we set up doing what they should be doing?

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I will try to answer.

Co-Chairman (Deputy Paschal Donohoe

We will allow two more colleagues to contribute, if Lord Ashdown does not mind.

It has been a pleasure to listen to Lord Ashdown. From my time in London, I know he has always been a friend to the Irish in England. I commend him in that regard. Like many Irish people before me, I worked on various building sites during the summer. As Lord Ashdown knows, many immigrants from the Balkan nations are now doing the work that we used to do.

Lord Ashdown addressed some of the points I wished to raise in his last reply. When I was taught European history in school, we were always told that the Balkans were the tinder keg of Europe. Unfortunately, that has played out twice in the past century. Lord Ashdown stated that armed intervention in Bosnia was not an imminent outcome, but why should we wait for it to become imminent? Given what occurred in 1991 and 1992, we know that the radicalisation and mobilisation of a small majority of nationalists can set everything on the trail to disaster.

Like Senator Healy Eames, I wonder about the powers of the High Representative. If he has so much power, why is there such a reluctance to take on separatists like Mr. Dodik. Why do we leave them where they are to stir the pot?

Lord Ashdown alluded to the leverage the EU could employ to make itself more muscular, as he put it. Is setting conditions on the money and how it is spent all we can do currently or is there another type of leverage? Perhaps Lord Ashdown will elaborate on this matter. I thank him for his attendance. It has been a pleasure.

I thank Lord Ashdown for his contribution. As someone who served in the foreign affairs committee of the European Parliament, I became aware at an early stage of how slowly many of these issues moved. Sometimes one expected progress to be made only to find oneself taking one step forward and two steps back. One must live with it.

Lord Ashdown touched on the current generation of people in charge and the need for the younger generation to be involved. During our Presidency of the EU in 2013, what can each member state do to engage in dialogue with the younger generation? I am not just talking about political engagement. Sometimes the mistake we make is that we think we can get all our solutions through political engagement, but I am talking about engagement of the business community, the farming community, the trade unions and all the different groups. What can member states do to try and encourage that engagement as a way forward? When dealing with the people currently in charge, one sometimes finds that much of the work does not really achieve anything. Perhaps we need to skip a generation to get any progress.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I will try and address some of the questions as quickly as I can. Senator Walsh referred to the point made by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl about the integrity of the state -----

I apologise, but we have to go to another meeting.

Lord Paddy Ashdown

I understand. That is the key issue. Deputy Ó Fearghaíl is right about the importance of maintaining the integrity of the state, albeit a light level state, but we should not get the idea in our heads that we are creating Dublin in Sarajevo or Westminster in Sarajevo. On the question of Kosovo, one of the big strategic errors made by the European Union was to imagine that the issue of Kosovo was the biggest issue. It is not the biggest issue. The answer to the question of Kosovo is time. I often compare Kosovo to Schleswig-Holstein. As members probably know, Schleswig-Holstein was the issue or the Kosovo of the 19th century. At the end, when Gladstone was dying, he was asked by somebody what the answer was to the Schleswig-Holstein problem. He replied that only three people knew the answer to the Schleswig-Holstein problem - one of whom was mad, one dead and that he was the third and had forgotten. The point is that time will solve the problem of Kosovo.

For a long period - it happened under Javier Solana I am afraid - when this reverse dynamic became established, the European Union basically said that it would do anything not to have trouble in Bosnia in order to be able to solve the problem of Kosovo. That was the wrong policy. If there is a place where the Balkans will blow up again, it is not Kosovo. The issue of Kosovo is difficult and tough, but in time the problem of Kosovo will vanish, just as the problem of Schleswig-Holstein did. The real problem is Bosnia. It is the powder keg and must be made the priority. Solving the problem of Kosovo will be tough and difficulty and I do not doubt there is the possibility of violence - we saw some recently - but in the long term, the problem of Kosovo will be resolved as people begin to grow as part of the European Union and it will become just a small state that everybody is used to. The issue is time.

In response to Senator Healy Eames, the high representative nominally has the bond powers. The new European Union External Action Service representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina , Peter Sorensen, is extremely good, but he does not have the bond powers. I am not in favour of those bond powers being used again. It is thought that I used them a lot, but the big things we did in Bosnia were done by the Parliaments of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Yes, I dismissed officials, because they refused to co-operate under international law with the Hague tribunal on ex-Yugoslavia to bring war criminals to justice. However, I am not in favour of using those powers now and Mr. Sorensen does not have them anyway. He is an extremely good European official, he knows Bosnia well and has all the right ideas. What I would like to see would be Brussels backing him and his judgment on the ground rather than running him on a 1,000 mile screwdriver from the Berlaymont in Brussels. Cathy Ashton would say that Brussels is backing him, but I am not sure he is receiving the kind of backing he needs.

In the past, the authority of the European Union special representatives was undermined by Brussels from time to time, which increasingly diminished the effect they could have in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, we are not going back to muscular use of bond powers. We could not, should not and must not. However, that does not mean to say that we cannot use the leverage of the European Union, the money that comes in under European stabilisation association, the leverage that we can exercise with Serbia, the leverage on functionality much more effectively than we are doing and in a much more muscular fashion. However, let us not go back to the exercise of what were basically colonial powers, vested under international treaty in the High Representative. I used to say that my title as the High Representative could have come straight out of Gilbert and Sullivan and that I had theoretical powers that ought to make a Liberal blush.

Let me tell members what a frightening thing it is to be somebody with almost absolute power in a foreign country one does not know very well. It scared me to death, because I knew perfectly well that if I took a decision that was not then supported by the Bosnian people, my powers would have vanished the following morning. Just as the law in this country rests on public consent, if I did not have public consent for my powers, I and the powers would have been gone. The fact one has these powers theoretically does not mean they exist in reality. They rest on the consent of the Bosnian people. I was very careful about that. By the way, that consent is not necessarily the consent of the representatives of the ethnic communities or their politicians. In the end, everything I did had to be accepted by the Bosnian people. I am glad to say it was, but it required some rather tight judgments and there were many moments when I was very frightened.

There is Saudi money going in and there has been right from the start. The Wahabis have wasted fantastic amounts of money seeking to radicalise the Bosnian Muslims. The miracle of the Bosnian Muslims is that despite the fact that they have fought a war of ethnic obliteration without help from anybody - we stood aside and watched without helping them - they are the most moderate Muslims in Europe. They are not Europe's new Muslim community, but Europe's ancient Muslim community. They go back 400 or 500 years. Alija Izetbegovic said that he was a Muslim and a European and that he did not see any contradiction between the two. The tragedy is that this could have acted as a real bridge between Christendom and Islam.

Despite all we have done, do I see more burkas on the streets of Sarajevo? Yes, I do. Do I see Saudi Arabian mosques? Yes, I do, but they look like nuclear power stations planted around Sarajevo, whereas Sarajevo's little mosques in the mahallas fit in like an English or Irish parish church within their community. I used to drive around Bosnia in the last days of autumn when there were beautiful clear blue skies. I would drive through the Bosniac Muslim agricultural community area and I knew that from every one I would see a little rising spiral of smoke which if I traced it would come from a still making Slivovitz for the winter. The smoke may have been rising to a god who is, apparently, opposed to alcohol, but these guys were not going into a Bosnian winter without at least ten litres of Slivovitz stocked under the stairs. I bet that if one walked down the Ferhadija in Sarajevo today, one would see as many short skirts as one would around the streets of Dublin.

We should not let ourselves be confused about Bosnia. We are being fed propaganda by some Serbs and Croats that it is a hotbed for extremism. I agree there have been one or two, but it is remarkable there have not been more. Most of the Bosnian population are extremely tolerant, modern, European Muslims who have been Muslims for 500 years. They are not the new Muslim community that is arriving and sometimes we treat them very badly.

I need to move on quickly to my two final points. Senator Heffernan suggested the Balkans have always been a tinder keg. Not so. I remember returning in 1994 or 1995 from Sarajevo and going to see the then British Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, and saying to him that we should intervene - I rated Douglas Hurd highly, but not on the Balkans. He said "No", that the Balkans had always been a centre of warfare and that the people there had always killed each other. He suggested we should put a firebreak around them and let the thing burn itself out. I asked how he could be so historically ignorant and pointed out that the people who had always killed each other in incalculable amounts of blood, terror and misery were us Europeans and that we had done it for 1,000 years. I asked, if we could find our way out of our history through the European Union, how he could deny that opportunity to them.

The Balkans have only got one future in peace and that is through the European Union. I do not believe we should be historically determined about this. We must give these people the opportunity to enjoy what Europe gives, which is the overarching structure within which nationalism can be sublimates. That is the only future for them. This is their home and I believe that Bosnia and Herzegovina will - God, Allah or whatever it is willing - one day be a member of the European Union and be regarded as one of its little jewels. It is indescribably beautiful with a wonderful ethnic make-up.

We have to help them to do this, but it does mean being tough about it sometimes.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn shares my concerns. This is not a question for Bosnia or the Balkans but one for us as Europeans. I hate what I see. I am an old man; perhaps I am a misanthrope and getting more and more miserable in my old age, but I look around and see the effects of economic hardship - perhaps even, God help us, economic collapse in some places - and begin to see the rise of extremists. I am not talking only about extremists on the right: now that the Labour Party is where it is, there is no one representing the growing socialist left. I am not a socialist, but they make up a large portion of the British population and perhaps the Irish population too - one sees them outside St. Paul's Cathedral - who are now simply unrepresented. In France we will see a worrying rise of the right under Marine Le Pen, but we will also see considerable concern about the rise of the left. We are beginning to move to a much more broken and divided society, of which, yes, protectionism and nationalism will, I fear, be part. It will require immense wisdom and statesmanship among our leaders and politicians such as those present to rise above this because the temptations will be huge. The opening of The Second Coming by the great W.B. Yeats goes:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer; [...]

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

He goes on to talk about the blood-dimmed tide and beast slouching towards Bethlehem. I do not predict this, but I fear it. The Balkans are a place where one sees in stark reality what the consequences of this would be and where it would take us.

Co-Chairman (Deputy Paschal Donohoe

On behalf of all our members, I again thank Lord Ashdown and all colleagues for their contributions.

Co-Chairman (Deputy Pat Breen

The title of Lord Ashdown's book, A Fortunate Life, is apt. He has achieved more in his political life than others who have held the highest offices in Europe, for which I commend him. It has also been a great life in which he has achieved so much. The decision by the two committees to hold a joint session was a good one because everybody wanted to contribute to the debate. As Lord Ashdown can see for himself, everybody was interested and well informed. I thank him for updating us on the current situation. His knowledge is second to none because of his long experience.

The Vice Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs referred to our visit to Sarajevo two years ago. It was the one visit abroad that really stuck in my mind - the scars and the sadness are still apparent 20 years on. I recently met Baroness Ashton in Warsaw and she has accepted an invitation to come here, although no date has yet been set. I am sure the issue will be on the agenda when she comes and we may again have a joint session of both committees.

I again thank Lord Ashdown for updating us. He is a welcome visitor here, especially with a name like Paddy.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.55 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26 January 2012.
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