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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 26 Jan 2012

General Affairs Council: Discussion with Minister of State (Resumed)

I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. I would like her opinion on a number of issues. This week the IMF released a report on the global outlook for the economy for the coming period. It stated that the main danger for the eurozone was that austerity would prevent growth, and it cut the economic growth forecast for the eurozone from 1.1% to 0.5%. It stated that, ideally, corrections should occur at a pace that supports adequate growth in output and employment and that decreasing debt is a marathon, not a sprint. That appears to fly in the face of the drafts we have seen so far of the fiscal treaty. Does the Minister of State agree with those warnings about the dangers of stifling growth by cutting too fast too deep, especially in terms of the emphasis that will be put on job creation and growth? Is she prepared to adjust her approach to negotiations to reflect that statement? Does she agree that the draft fiscal pacts with the deficit target of 0.5% are unachievable without removing any potential for growth and job creation?

Does the Minister of State share the view of some economic commentators that Angela Merkel's comments yesterday at the World Economic Forum in Davos were very disappointing because of her hardline approach? Martin Wolf from the Financial Times stated that she had learned nothing and forgotten nothing, that her economic perspective would kill the euro and that this would have a tragic inevitability about it. I would like to hear the Minister of State’s opinions on that.

Regarding the emphasis put on growth and job creation, the European Union recently authorised a change in the rules regarding co-financing of Structural Fund spending for countries such as Ireland, currently in receipt of EU-IMF funding to allow a higher percentage of funding from the EU side on Structural Funds projects. How does the Government intend to make use of that initiative to stimulate growth and job creation? The draft statement of the members of the European Council also focuses on growth friendly consolidation and jobs friendly growth. They refer to boosting the financing of small and medium businesses, SMEs, and that one of the urgent measures will be to enhance the European Investment Bank support to SMEs.

During questions to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in the Chamber yesterday, Deputy Peadar Tóibín indicated he had contacted the European Investment Bank and found that only 11 countries so far have drawn down funds from the European progress microfinance facility, and Ireland is not one of them. As Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, what can the Minister of State do to encourage Departments to begin working with that progress microfinance facility to ensure the money that is available is being drawn down to help SMEs that are being starved of credit?

I will take two more questions before asking the Minister of State to respond. I call Senator Paschal Mooney.

I congratulate the Chairman on his election and wish him well, as someone who served with him in the Seanad. I am representing the Fianna Fáil Party in the absence of Deputy Dooley, who had a family bereavement, and Senator Leyden, who is on Council of Europe business. I welcome the Minister of State. As one who served in foreign affairs and was involved as a Council of Europe member on European affairs I am glad to be back home, albeit temporarily.

I appreciate that the Council is focusing on two main areas, namely, job creation and the euro crisis. I welcome the remarks by the Minister of State on the jobs initiative put together by five like-minded countries because part of my question relates to the overall approach to the euro crisis in that there is a view here that Ireland is being led rather than leading and that, traditionally, and particularly in the past ten to 15 years, as a small country we took the lead in liaising and lobbying with like-minded smaller countries. In the early part of this century we were seen on the European convention and leading up to the Lisbon treaty as being a lead country but that appears to have fallen by the wayside somewhat. The widespread impression here is that France and Germany are effectively dictating, and those remarks were echoed by the newly elected President of the European Parliament who stated he would take back power from the French-German axis and that Parliament and democracy should take a leading role. I am curious to know the efforts Ireland has been making in attracting like-minded countries to the view that we should have our debt burden reduced. What is the level of sympathy among like-minded countries in that regard because, ultimately, it will have to be a unanimous decision?

In the context of the meeting - I appreciate this is about job creation - the Minister of State referred to energy. There is a growing controversy here relating to the extraction of huge reservoirs of gas, particularly in my part of the country. It is known as the Bundoran shale or the Lough Allen basin. Hydraulic fracturing will become a major issue. A number of local authorities already have taken motions to ban the practice here. I have discovered there is no European-wide policy on that. There are large gaps in this area in terms of how energy can be extracted and lest people think that is not important in the current climate, it is already estimated that the potential reserves of gas in the Lough Allen basin, if extracted commercially, could contribute to 60% of Ireland's energy needs. It is that significant an issue. At what point would the Minister of State raise the issue at a Europe-wide level? The Council would appear to be the appropriate place to raise it in the context of energy and energy development because it is-----

That is an issue for energy Ministers and not for the General Affairs Council.

It is a serious issue and one that will become even more serious.

My final question relates to the focus on job creation. What has happened to the Lisbon agreement? I am not referring to the Lisbon treaty but the Lisbon agreement which set out over ten years ago-----

(Interruptions).

-----certain aspirations which essentially were to achieve what the Minister of State has outlined in her contribution that she will discuss next week again. We are now ten years on. It is about reducing bureaucracy and making Europe more efficient leading to more job creation. I am curious to know if there has been any revisiting of that. The Minister of State made reference to the fact that she put forward proposals but what steps are being taken to ensure there will be greater efficiency across Europe that will reduce bureaucracy? One aspect of that is the passing of the Patent Bill in recent days which will reduce significantly the costs for registering patents from this country. That will be Europe-wide. I would be grateful if the Minister of State would elaborate on how we will get this country moving again.

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and look forward to working with him.

One of the issues we perused with the Tánaiste in the previous meeting was the second last paragraph of the preamble to the proposed treaty that will emerge next Monday, which states that unless a state signs up to the treaty it cannot avail of the European Stability Mechanism funding after 1 March 2013. I stated then and repeat that in the middle of that paragraph, in capital letters, are the words "pointing out" and that the granting of assistance and the framework of new programmes will be conditional, as if we needed that to be highlighted in capital letters. It is in the preamble and it is a big change from the previous drafts. It is a dramatic statement.

In terms of what we want to probe with the Minister of State, the European Stability Mechanism is a separate treaty and is applicable, as we found out eventually from the Tánaiste, under EU law. On the first occasion, he said it was not, but he returned and said it was on having received advice from his advisers.

With regard to the European Council meeting on Monday, is the Minister of State aware of whether the European Stability Mechanism treaty will be renegotiated to permit the new criterion? How does she intend to make the treaty that will probably be confirmed next Monday applicable to the European Stability Mechanism? Do the two converge? If so, why? How can a criterion be enforced under EU law? Could the Minister of State explain how the very strong paragraph will apply legally? It smacks of bullying of those states that are now struggling, such as Ireland, to keep the core states' banks afloat. We have suffered sustained austerity budgets to pay back money on foot of the recklessness of core state financial institutions. To what extent is the paragraph convergent with existing EU law and how could it be convergent with the European Stability Mechanism treaty?

At the ECOFIN meeting during the week, were further changes agreed to the fiscal or austerity pact? What progress has been made on Greek debts? The Irish are watching with great interest the write-down of private sector debts, amounting to 70% in some cases. What is the progress in this area by comparison with our Minister's negotiations on the promissory notes?

I join colleagues in congratulating Deputy Hannigan on his election as Chairman of the committee. He has a mighty task ahead and I look forward to working with him and, not least, to seeing him every month at the pre-General Affairs Council meetings and other discussions.

Senator Reilly referred to the IMF report and the danger austerity presents to the eurozone. We are very aware of this. While the Government and I strongly hold the view that it is essential that governments around the eurozone and the Union as a whole strive to balance budgets as quickly as is humanly possible to meet the agreed targets set out at EU level, we have learned our lesson domestically. We failed to consolidate public finances in the 1980s and paid the price for quite some time. Until we had a Government that was prepared to take the steps necessary to consolidate the public finances, the recession deepened and unemployment worsened. People suffered as a consequence.

The challenge we face in Ireland and across the eurozone is to achieve a balance between the so-called austerity consolidation and the need to stimulate growth and have innovative means of job creation. The objective of consolidating public finances, as set out in the fiscal treaty, does not fly in the face of our stated agenda on job creation. The two can go hand in hand.

I mentioned in my introductory remarks the ongoing discussions on the multi-annual financial framework. This involves an enormous EU budget for the period 2014 to 2020. The negotiation will be difficult but it is very important to us that we ensure sectors in our economy that are already doing well, such as the agriculture and food sectors, continue to thrive. There is already provision for stimulus within the Union, one element of which is the multi-annual financial framework. The other element, which I mentioned, is the Single Market agenda. The Single Market Act is essentially a 12-point plan, most of which we embrace wholeheartedly. Ireland, along with some other member states, is pursuing the fast-tracking of many of the measures therein. These include progressing the digital single market, financing venture capital for small businesses and start-up companies, and facilitating access to markets, particularly in the services sector.

All of these factors are very important, present massive opportunities for growth within the eurozone and, arguably, will provide much greater stimulus than would be provided if the Government were simply to pump money into the system. Most analysts would agree that Governments do not and cannot create jobs but that they can create the conditions for growth. This is our outlook and why we are so supportive of President Van Rompuy's initiative at the forthcoming informal Council to progress that agenda. That is why we have taken a lead. This leads me to Senator Mooney's point on why Ireland has taken a lead along with Finland, Sweden, the United Kingdom and other member states in pushing the agenda, which is crucial for growth and job creation.

With regard to increased access to Structural Funds, an easing up of the co-financing requirements has been agreed. It is of particular benefit to countries that already benefit greatly from Structural Funds and Cohesion Funds. We do not. Our greatest source of funding is through the Common Agricultural Policy. As I stated, we are very anxious that this continue under the new multi-annual financial framework. We do not benefit from Structural Funds in the same way as some of the southern and eastern European countries. We once did, as members are well aware, but our economy has become more sophisticated and has grown. Ireland is now one of the wealthier nations within the Union and, therefore, we do not qualify for significant Structural Funds, and have not done for quite some time.

There are other initiatives to bear in mind. We had a Cabinet sub-committee meeting last week at which we discussed the opportunities in regard to project bonds. A number of Departments are charged with exploring options in regard to how we can avail of and maximise opportunities for Ireland through certain schemes.

With regard to the microfinance facility, various Departments, especially the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, have been charged with seeking ways in which we can assist companies, particularly SMEs, in adopting the best possible measures to ensure we can avail of European Investment Bank funding opportunities That work is ongoing. It may not be aired enough because every debate we have in the Dáil now is centred on the more prominent developments at EU level, such as the intergovernmental treaty and the associated issues. It would be worthwhile having a debate, perhaps in the Dáil in plenary session, on some of these issues and the opportunities for Ireland. We are very open to hearing suggestions from Opposition parties. I would never contend that the Government parties are the only ones with solutions and creative, innovative ideas. We must be willing to listen to all sides. While some points the Opposition makes are very good, it should not underestimate the amount of work that is taking place through interdepartmental co-ordination to maximise opportunities and ensure we benefit from that.

Let me address Senator Mooney's extraordinary view that Ireland was somehow a leader in Europe over the past 15 years and that it somehow dropped the ball in recent months. On the basis of my having meetings all the time at ministerial level and countless bilateral meetings with partners from all over the European Union and beyond, I note that is not the view that is held. The view is that the previous Government clearly dropped the ball in terms of engagement with the European institutions and member states. On first taking up this position I went from institution to institution and from member state to member state holding meetings. It was clear to me that Ireland essentially had disengaged for a considerable number of years before that. The Government has been working hard to rebuild such engagement and to cultivate stronger and better relations with all the European institutions. Ms Phil Prendergast, MEP, is present and could tell members about the week I spent meeting key players in the European Parliament at a plenary session in Strasbourg last November. I have had countless meetings with all the Irish MEPs. This is just one example but almost all Cabinet Ministers have had meetings in the European Parliament by now. In addition, they have had multiple meetings with the European Commission, as well as meetings with the Council secretariat and bilateral meetings with like-minded member states, depending on the sector. Naturally, our allies on the question of agriculture are very different from our allies on the question of taxation. The Government is picking its arguments, has identified clearly strategic priorities and is building alliances around those priorities. This is happening continually and is not a process limited to the Taoiseach or to the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, as this is taking place right across the Government.

A new committee has been established on foot of a Government decision just before Christmas. It decided to create a new interdepartmental committee on co-ordination that I will chair. Its remit will be much broader than the range of the pre-existing committee chaired by my predecessor, which only considered the implementation of European Union regulations and directives that already had been agreed. This committee will be much more strategic, will have a much wider remit and will have a formal role in assessing and monitoring the performance of all Ministers in all Departments in respect of their European Union engagement. While I am doing this anyway, the process will be formalised and the committee's first meeting will take place within the next ten days. Consequently, the suggestion that the present Administration somehow has dropped the ball when, quite clearly, the reverse is the case is a contention I reject.

I have listened to the Minister of State and that was not my contention. I simply pointed out that in the early part of this century, for example during the convention leading up to the Lisbon treaty, the policy was for Ireland to take a lead on issues with like-minded countries. I was not trying to score a political point but was merely asking what the Minister of State was doing in that context. I am grateful to her for having outlined what she has done.

That is no problem Senator and-----

Senator Mooney should be aware there will be time at the end for others to come back again.

-----I already have made this point many times before this joint committee.

I could not allow that charge to go unchallenged.

Moreover, I am happy to do so again. As the Senator is aware, I also have done this in the Seanad, where I have participated in a number of debates in which there were some really good exchanges on these topics.

The Senator makes a legitimate and valid point on the perception that France and Germany somehow are leading the European Union in a way that is not desirable and an issue undoubtedly exists in this regard. Ireland always has adopted the approach that from the perspective of a small member state such as this State, the community method of decision making is a far better method This is the reason Ireland supported the Lisbon treaty, in the sense that it strengthened the role of the Parliament and we envisaged that it would strengthen the role of the European Commission. However, it is clear that the European Commission has been sidelined to some extent, particularly since the onset of the financial crisis. I believe this is partly because a highly complex institutional framework now exists. One has eurozone member states meeting at one level and the European Council meeting at another and a tension certainly exists with regard to how the 17 relate to the 27. This issue has flared up repeatedly at ministerial meetings over the past 12 months. A solution must be found in this regard although this will not be achieved easily. However, the role of the Commission must be strengthened and this is in Ireland's interest as a small member state. I agree with the Senator that the small member states must be more assertive. This is the reason that Ireland, as a proactive small member state, is taking this role so seriously and is the reason it has been forging alliances. We will need to re-examine the institutional framework at some point in the future. Now is not the time, in the middle of an economic crisis, to suggest one can begin to revisit how the institutions function and how they relate to one another but this must happen at some point in the future.

As for the question of France and Germany, it simply is that they are the two largest economies in the eurozone. When the eurozone was hit by the current financial crisis it was in a sense paralysed and everyone looked around for leadership. It is inevitable, as it always is, that some leadership will be provided by France and Germany. While leadership from the biggest economies is necessary, it is a question of how such leadership is exercised. There have been some differences of opinion as to solutions to and ways of dealing with the current crisis. However, we are coming ever closer to common ground. Much progress has been made in recent months on working together more closely in co-operation and the intergovernmental agreement is a highly important component of that. I have made the point, before the joint committee and in the Dáil Chamber, that I do not suggest that the intergovernmental agreement will solve the eurozone crisis overnight. While it clearly will not, it is an important part of the jigsaw and will be important in assisting everyone to move forward. The member states come from very different perspectives, ranging from the triple A-rated creditor countries to the programme countries. There must be a meeting of minds and that is beginning to happen.

On Senator Mooney's question on energy and that policy agenda, the Lisbon treaty elevated the status of the European Union in terms of policy making in this field. Consequently, greater scope now exists. It is a highly sensitive subject for all sorts of reasons, political and pertaining to national interests, as different member states have resisted the development of a coherent energy policy at European Union level. For a small island country such as Ireland, such a policy makes eminent sense. However, for some of the larger countries, some of which have strategic interests in different regions in the world, it may not make as much sense, at least on the face of it. Consequently, there also is some work to be done in this regard. Perhaps the joint committee could have a discussion at some point with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, regarding his priorities in pursuing this agenda. Obviously, it is not something that comes up in great detail at the General Affairs Council but it must be developed and improved at European Union level and the Lisbon treaty certainly provides the mechanism or the means to do this.

As for the question about the Lisbon Agenda, that strategy has expired.

It did not seem to be successful.

It did not work. I have said previously that the Lisbon strategy was a complete failure. Perhaps European member states thought their economies were doing reasonably well. As things were ticking over, no one really perceived the need to effect reforms quickly and in a meaningful fashion. Obviously, that impetus now has changed and the Lisbon strategy has been replaced by the Europe 2020 agenda. The Government certainly is taking that agenda extremely seriously, as are all eurozone members. Overall, all member states of the European Union are taking it much more seriously and one can see the Europe 2020 agenda being aligned to government programmes. The Irish Government is doing this with its programme for Government and national reform programmes now are taking precedence. Moreover, the overall European semester process, which is a new concept, is an important element thereof. The Government will watch closely to see how the Danes deal with this process during their Presidency. Obviously, as it takes place annually in the first half of each year, it also will be a major issue, challenge and priority for the Irish Government during Ireland's Presidency next year.

I reiterate that progress has been made. We are very keen on self-flagellation within the European Union and as everything is perceived negatively, we do not necessarily always see the positives. If there is a silver lining in the current crisis, it is that we have pulled up our socks in this regard. We now talk seriously about the Single Market agenda and about job and growth creation and there is a huge potential in this for us. I am optimistic about this in a way that I was not about the Lisbon strategy, because the impetus was not there.

As for the question from Deputy Mac Lochlainn on the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, treaty, it is important to note that Ireland did not seek the link between the new treaty and the ESM. The issue is that we want to avoid market uncertainty arising from any concern about funding for states like Ireland and other programme countries in future. There are diverging positions on this. Other members states strongly argue that stability and solidarity are linked, and that this has to be recognised. If we are to demonstrate solidarity through the fiscal compact, it should be linked to future funding through the ESM. All I can say at the moment is that this is ongoing.

As I mentioned earlier, tomorrow we will have the General Affairs Council but we will also have a Sherpa meeting in advance of the summit on Monday where the Government will be represented. There will be quite heated exchanges on this topic but the link is likely to stay in the text at this point. The art of compromise is about ensuring that we try to bring everybody along. As I mentioned already, the perspective of creditor countries is very different to that of programme countries or, indeed, some of the members that are in difficulty and on whom the spotlight is shining.

It is in our interests to ensure that there is agreement next Monday. This may be one of the elements that we will compromise on. The question ultimately is whether we see this fiscal compact as being part of a bigger picture - a bigger negotiation, for example, on the question of promissory notes. Other possibilities have been mentioned in the context of the terms of our bailout programme and this is an important part of it. A number of member states feel strongly about this and want assurances that bailout programmes will not be an incentive for member states to take their foot off the pedal in the consolidation and reform process. I do not believe there is any criticism of Ireland in that context. It is widely acknowledged that we have made huge progress but there are question marks hanging over other member states.

The bottom line is that we must all arrive at a point where we can feel satisfied that we can achieve a consensus that is broadly acceptable to everybody. It is important for us to achieve agreement quickly so that we can move forward and address other issues, such as liquidity in the eurozone and the role of the ECB. Those issues are still there, although we have seen decisive action from the ECB at the start of this year. I am encouraged by that. It has been hugely important in building investor confidence in the eurozone. We need that to continue, so it is a question of achieving compromise. It may not be the answer the committee wants to hear, but that is where things currently stand as far as we are concerned.

The issue of promissory notes and-or other means by which we can ease the burden on the State will take quite some time. Negotiations are under way and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has kept the public and the Dáil well informed on them. By their nature they are complex and difficult negotiations because the approach from other member states is often to say, "You have your terms and conditions. Make it work. Please don't come back and ask for anything else". That is understandable and we must recognise where they are coming from. However, there is also a strong recognition that Ireland is performing extremely well and that we have taken difficult decisions. Irish people have suffered pain and that has to be acknowledged in some way by improving the terms of our programme. It will happen but it will take time and there will be protracted discussions.

As regards the question on ECOFIN, there is nothing particularly new coming from that quarter. The Minister for Finance had a good opportunity to meet with the ECB and his EU counterparts, as well as progressing the negotiations at a political level while the discussions are ongoing at official level. No doubt the Taoiseach will have an opportunity to hold similar discussions with his counterparts on Monday and, as we speak, in Davos. That work is ongoing.

Before I take the next contribution, can the Minister of State clarify how long she can remain at the committee?

Two more members of the committee wish to ask questions.

Deputy Bernard Durkan

I want to congratulate you, Chairman, on your election. We will do everything we can to make his tenure a success for the committee and nationally also. I also wish to congratulate the Vice Chairman for having carried on the work. We have already congratulated the former Chairman. I wish to raise a number of issues, although I realise the Minister of State's time is constrained. We should congratulate the Danish Presidency on its list of priorities, which is constructive, useful and beneficial to the entire European project.

The Minister of State said we seem to flog ourselves to death on every possible occasion in this country. We seem to have reached a competition now as to who can be most negative in appraising our economic prospects, the future of the euro and the EU in general. This is totally destructive, not of the European institutions but of our own image and what we stand for. As an economic entity we have shown that we can achieve objectives if we stick with them.

One of the things that has to be learned is that we have to base our strategy on something. It is now called austerity but what is the alternative - flamboyance? When one gambles away all one's money at the casino, does one borrow from a bank and move on to the next casino to spend it the same way? No. Institutions both here and elsewhere in the EU, including political ones, need to recognise that we must start on a sound basis. What is happening now is a good idea and we are going in the right direction. It may be slow progress but that often brings the best results, as has been shown in the past.

We noted that the jobs initiative could not come about until the foundations were put in place. The Lisbon strategy failed because there was no review programme. It was like a government programme that ran for ten years with no ongoing revision and no checking to see whether the indicators were going in the right direction. Hence, we will have the compact and semester that are now being put in place. They are both positive and necessary. If one does not review a programme, one has no way of identifying whether or not one is going in the right direction. We were going in the wrong direction for many years, yet nobody said "Stop".

My last point concerns EU enlargement which, in these economically difficult times, is generally put on the back burner, although that is not necessarily a good thing. The Presidency is right in identifying the ongoing situation in the Balkans and the need to encourage the Serbians to come into the acquis communautaire to the extent that it will be possible for them to become part of the EU. We should not tell them they are banned for X number of years and put them on the long finger, like Turkey for instance. That will not do anything for European political stability, which is hugely important.

I appreciate the Deputy's brevity.

I wish to congratulate you too, Chairman. I apologise for missing that moment.

It was exciting.

Deputy Bernard Durkan

They all shared in it.

I look forward to working with you.

The Senator can look back at the replays.

That is right. Likewise, it is great to have the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, here again. I have two brief questions on next Monday's important meeting. Can the Minister of State comment on the Polish position regarding the treaty? I understand the Polish Prime Minister has stated that he will not sign the fiscal compact due to an issue involving attendance at eurozone summits. Does the Minister of State think that will become a major problem and what is Ireland's negotiating position with regard to non-members of the eurozone attending eurozone summits?

My second question relates to the Minister of State's comment on jobs and growth across Europe. It has been my experience that public confidence in Europe's ability to produce jobs and growth is low precisely because Lisbon did not deliver what people expected. How will the new treaty stimulate jobs and growth and how sure can we be that the new intergovernmental treaty will solve the Eurozone crisis?

I agree with Deputy Durkan on enlargement. At a time like this the natural instinct of member states is retrenchment and calling a halt to free movement. We have seen difficulties with the Schengen Agreement over the past several years in certain member states and there has been a degree of resistance to enlargement. This is a short-sighted response.

To take one example, it is essential for the sake of self-interested security considerations that we stabilise the Balkans. It is a hugely important neighbouring region and Serbia is crucial to it. Clearly we cannot lower our standards in what we demand, whether from existing member states or potential members, but we have to be constructive in ensuring that the tensions between Kosovo and Serbia are ameliorated. This morning I met Kosovo's deputy foreign Minister and we had a useful exchange on these matters. I want that to continue and the EU has a vital role to play in this. It has already played a distinguished role in the Balkans. From the point of view of trading opportunities and wealth creation, Kosovo's economy is growing by 5% annually. It does not have an economic or a banking crisis. It is wonderful that Croatia will join the EU on 1 July 2013, although I regret that it will not accede during the Irish Presidency. I look forward to meeting my Croatian counterparts when they attend Council meetings. This is a positive story in which Ireland has traditionally been strong. We must maintain our strong positivity towards enlargement because it has benefited us and it will continue to do so.

On the attendance of non-members of the eurozone at eurozone meetings, this is an issue which flared up repeatedly at summits. It is now coming into sharp focus in the context of Poland's stated position and the concerns expressed by other member states. The Taoiseach has been consistent in advocating an open door policy towards non-members, many of which want to join the currency union in the next two or three years. It is essential that we have an open discussion. Certain issues probably will have to be discussed among the 17 eurozone members and that will have to be acknowledged by all 27 member states but, by and large, most of the discussions can take place in the context of an open door policy. Poland is sensitive on this issue because while it did a very good job in the Presidency over the past six months, it was awkward at times because it is not yet part of the eurozone even though it had an obligation to keep abreast of everything that happened. We are sensitive to that and we will work to find a solution over the course of the weekend.

On the treaty and its role in stimulating growth, anybody who thinks one treaty can solve the unemployment crisis in Europe is sorely mistaken. The crucial issue for the Government in respect of the intergovernmental treaty is that it will be another step on the road to stabilising the eurozone. I have just returned from New York, where I spoke yesterday at a conference organised by Bloomberg and met a number of investors, economists and analysts, including individuals who were involved in the private sector involvement, PSI, negotiations with Greece. Everybody I met spoke about the uncertainty in the eurozone. However, they were becoming more optimistic and they regard this treaty as important. If we are to step back from our internal disputes within the eurozone to take account of the perspective of outsiders who we want to invest in infrastructure or bank bonds, we must offer stability to those who can provide the cash flow. The treaty is an important link in that chain but it will not solve the crisis by itself. All European leaders need to show grit. Determination and absolute resolve will be required by governments at EU, regional and national levels. The further development of the Single Market will be more concrete in the short to medium term.

That message needs to get out a little bit more. It is a question of stabilising the structures so that everyone can engage with them.

As a vote has been called, I ask the Minister of State to conclude.

I remind members about Ireland's continued success in attracting investment. People believe the situation has stabilised here. Our banks have been recapitalised and while we may not like the measures that have been taken in terms of fiscal consolidation, they mean we are an attractive location in which to invest. We need to see stability across the European Union.

I thank the Minister of State for her presentation and her detailed answers to members' questions. I wish her the best and hope to meet her again in the near future.

Sitting suspended at 12.40 p.m. The joint committee resumed in private session at 1 p.m. and adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 February 2012.
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