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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2012

European Commission Annual Work Programme 2012: Discussion with EU Commissioner

I am pleased to welcome Mr. Maros Sefcovic, the Vice President of the European Commission, responsible for inter-institutional relations and administration. Mr. Sefcovic has graciously accepted our invitation to address us today on the work programme of the European Commission.

With the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty, national parliaments have a greater say in European affairs. The treaty recognises the role as contributing actively to the good functioning of the Union. The Commissioner is on record as saying that he will ensure that the active and constructive role of national parliaments in European policy making is further strengthened. He is personally committed to developing and deepening further the Commission's relations with national parliaments and to establish a true political partnership with them.

The Houses of the Oireachtas have responsibility for the scrutiny of EU draft proposals for the proper transposition of EU legislation into Irish law, and for holding the Government accountable for the decisions taken by Ministers at Council meetings. The Joint Committee on European Union Affairs focuses its activities on matters concerning the strategic direction of the EU and on optimising its influence on framing that agenda. This includes oversight of the political parties for the EU, as set out in the Commission's state of the Union address and work programme.

The current Dáil and Seanad have decentralised the work from the EU into various sectoral committees. The mainstreaming of the work was rolled out in October 2011. While this process is still bedding down, better resourcing of the committee system and improved levels of engagement by the Government is helping to strengthen the capacity of the Oireachtas to fulfil its proper role in the deliberation of EU affairs.

On that note, I would like to hand over to Commissioner Šefcovic.

Thank you Chairman for your kind invitation to your Parliament. I had the chance to speak with you some time ago when you visited Brussels. You know I have a very soft spot for Ireland because I will never forget the warm welcome my country received when were admitted to the European Union. We had a big party in Cork. We had a very impressive flag ceremony in Dublin. I realised there are many common features between Slovaks and Irish people, because we like to have a good beer and good fun. This was also confirmed to me as my daughter has an Irish boyfriend, so I get regular updates on what is going on here.

Be careful on that.

I was very glad to have the opportunity to visit this Parliament because I know that Ireland is going through very tough times and I wanted to come here to explain the Commission's work programme, how we see progress being made in the next few months and how we appreciate the bold steps the Government and the country is taking to get Ireland out of the crisis. If we look at what has been happening in Europe and around the world over the last few years, we see that we are going through an unprecedented crisis. Taking any statistics available, we can easily agree that this is the worst crisis since the Second World War. The only comparison we can find is the Great Depression of the 1930s. It is natural that citizens in Europe expect their leaders to overcome the problem and point to clear directions for the future.

In the Commission, we have emphasised the fact that we cannot continue with business as usual and that we need to focus on growth. Over the last two or three years, we have been making many efforts in the area of consolidation, but it is now clear that we need to focus on growth. Therefore, we started a process which we called "European Renewal", and which is based on stability and responsibility, but also on growth. Even though our day-to-day agenda has been dominated by immediate urgencies, it is clear that we must not lose of the need for the longer term reform. We need to restore the public finances. It is clear that we need to get them in order, but we cannot neglect our plans for the future. We must put out the fire, but at the same time we must lay the foundation for our new house.

We therefore decided to put growth at the heart of our work programme for 2012. We cannot use a magic wand to get the economy moving again, but we need to focus all of our efforts and our research to get our economies out of the crisis and to get them to grow again. We need to prepare our system in a way that would prevent the repetition of the crisis for many years.

Aside from the macrofinance problem and the banking sector crisis, one problem we had was that the euro was losing competitiveness steadily but surely for many years. A key to getting the European economy back among the top world economies is to examine what we can do better and how we can consolidate our efforts in a way so that research, innovation and science can receive higher prominence in the European Union.

My good friend and the members' fellow citizen, Commissioner Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, is doing a great job and she never misses an opportunity to remind us at our college table that we have to simplify and make things easier for scientists and researchers so that they can spend more time in their labs and less on accounting. We all understand that and we have presented a major programme for simplification but we will need the help of the committee. It will need to be improved in the Council and in the European Parliament, but, most importantly, it will need to be implemented on a national level. Often, directives are approved but, even for the best of them, because of a lack of transposition or inappropriate or imprecise implementation we do not get the results we expected. I am sure if it deals with research and development there will be no problem in Ireland, because it is doing excellently in using EU funding in the area of research. For example, the Marie Curie programme alone has brought more than €60 million to Ireland since 2002. This is a remarkable achievement given the fact that this funding is based on fierce competition. Ireland's researchers and scientists have done excellently in that Europe-wide competition. In addition, Irish SMEs are among the most successful in obtaining EU research funding.

In total, Irish SMEs are receiving a financial contribution of €43.4 million from the EU, which represents over one fifth of the entire EU contribution to SMEs. We know that the EU is big and Ireland does not represent 20% of it but when it comes to research and the success of SMEs it represents one fifth of the EU, which is a remarkable fact. To give just one more example, €8 million of EU funding was made available to the Tyndall National Institute at University College Cork in April 2010. This money has created 20 new research jobs and will fund 20 cutting-edge projects which I believe will contribute further to the innovative nature of Irish science and its prominent position in the European research family.

When the Commission examines what it can use as a major booster to restart the European economy - it is clear we do not have any more money for fiscal stimulus - we see that we definitely need to use the Single Market in a much better way. There are 500 million potential customers and there are still too many barriers preventing our businesses and SMEs from reaching them more efficiently. Ireland can appreciate our efforts because it is one of the major beneficiaries of the Single Market and its economy is very much export-oriented, with its major partners in the European Union. Therefore, what we did was to present a so-called Single Market Act, although actually there are 12 proposals for directives which should make the Single Market much more open by helping us to get rid of the remaining barriers and bring the Single Market to the 21st century. We believe the measures we are proposing for creation of the digital Single Market, including new cross-border rules for licensing, could greatly help the many businesses that have their international headquarters in Ireland.

Another important item, which I am sure will be very much discussed in Ireland, is our aim to complete the ambitious overhaul of financial regulation and supervision. This is an effort that was led by the Commission in recent years. We believe this will provide a stable and transparent environment for healthy, growth-stimulating investment, ensuring that financial institutions actually serve the real economy rather than undermining its stability.

In the past the driver for growth in Ireland was broad-based exports. Even though reforms are very painful and difficult, this is one of the areas in which Ireland is showing its strong resilience and business base. Its export growth of 6% under difficult circumstances is a very impressive performance. We are trying to explore the possibilities of opening up opportunities for trade beyond the borders of the EU. This year, we will explore a possible free trade agreement with Japan as well as an investment agreement with China. Both the President of the European Commission, Mr. Barroso, and the President of the European Council, Mr. Van Rompuy, have had high-level meetings and summits in China, and this was one of the items on the agenda. Europe, which is the biggest economy in the world, must explore further possibilities of gaining fair access to other markets. It is important that in the future we make sure the development and economic renewal on which we are all working will be sustainable and that it will be a renewal for all.

I now come to a topic that is extremely painful for the whole EU but more so for some countries than for others, namely, unemployment, and especially youth unemployment. We have got into an unfortunate situation in which we even had to invent a new acronym, NEETs, to refer to young people who are not in employment, education or training. There are more than 7.5 million young people in this situation, and it is an enormous waste of potential because this, I truly believe, is the best educated young generation we have ever had in the EU, yet we cannot accommodate their urge to work and get them good jobs. Therefore, we decided that we need to mobilise the resources we have in the European Union in the fields of finance, exchange of experience and best practice. We approached the eight member states for which this problem is most painful and decided to set up joint action teams to look for national and European synergies to tackle this issue. As members know well, Ireland is among these member states, as is my country, and we are encouraged that the Government reacted to the letter of our President on such short notice and that it has already presented its jobs plan.

The team of the commission will arrive shortly - Ms Nolan is telling me it will be next week, on 21 February - and I hope we can bring additional expertise to consider some possibilities for using EU money. I know that Ireland has always done very well in using EU money, but we can always look for efficiency gains through best practice approaches and the use of expertise, as has been done with success in other countries. I hope that together with the Irish Government and the social partners we can find ways to get this young, talented generation back to work.

We also hope to make use of our youth programmes, such as those on which Ms Nolan was working before she came to work in Dublin. For example, in Youth on the Move, we are trying to create a new system. Young people would get a card and a standardised system would explain their previous experience, qualifications and education. The card should be widely accepted all over Europe. It will also help young people to look for jobs, not just in their home countries but all over the European Union.

On the European social fund, to date €6 billion has been spent to co-finance Irish Government spending on training, education and equality programmes which have been designed to equip Irish workers with the skills needed in a modern jobs market. As I explained, we also used the European globalisation adjustment fund which helped Irish companies, including SR Technics and the Dell facility in Limerick, to retrain hundreds of workers who were made redundant following restructuring. It is also clear proof of how we can match national and European efforts to deliver the necessary systems, particularly in difficult times for European citizens.

Another very important topic this year will be the discussion on the multi-annual financial perspective. It will involve another seven years of budgets which the European Union should work with from 2014-20. As the committee is aware, last summer we presented our proposal. The discussion is now taking place. We in the Commission see the conclusion of negotiations this year as a top priority in order that we can use next year for the preparation of the programmes for completion of all the simplification measures we are suggesting. We want to be able to start on 1 January 2014 with a new budget, new rules and, it is to be hoped, better results in spending the next multi-annual financial programme for the European Union.

The role of the committee in this discussion will be crucial because we have to agree to it. All institutions and member states will also participate in the discussion on the multi-annual financial framework which will take place on 22 March in Brussels. Discussions will take place between all institutions and parliaments, including the European Parliament. It would be very good if the committee could present its priorities. I also ask for its support for getting the task done by the end of the year because it would help all of us to better prepare for 2014.

Before the meeting we discussed the importance of the new package on economic governance. We went through a lot over the last two years and one of the lessons we learned was that we have to do everything at our disposal not to get into the same situation. We saw how much slippage there was in terms of imprecise regulations or a lack of regulation in the European rules which were not adopted to deal with the new, but probably unnoticed, growing interdependence among the economies in the European Union.

Enormous efforts were made to improve economic governance. One of the important pieces in the new economic governance puzzle was the treaty on the fiscal compact which was agreed at the informal European summit on 30 January by 25 member states including Ireland. The treaty is very important because it deals with additional leverage and instruments to strengthen fiscal discipline, how to introduce stricter surveillance and more automaticity in the excessive deficit procedure.

There was also agreement to further strengthen economic co-ordination in the euro area, for example by the ex ante discussion of plans for major economic policy reforms. The Commission position from the beginning was very clear. Our preference was to go through the normal amending procedure of the Lisbon treaty but because we could not get unanimous support for this procedure we had to go for the intergovernmental treaty approach. We needed a result and agreed with the overall philosophy.

What was very important for the Commission was that, despite the fact that this an intergovernmental treaty, we managed to secure what was very important for the Commission, namely European spirit, communitarian methods, the role of the institution, respect for the primacy of European law and clear agreement that the treaty will become part of European law and treaties within five years. Even though we had to proceed in this way because of political and time pressures, the treaty will become part of European law very soon.

The last informal summit was also very important for Ireland. For the first time in the past two or three years it was not just dealing with emergencies. It was clear that we now need to talk more about how to begin to grow our economies and how to create new jobs. It was a welcome change for the Commission. We have made very clear on many different occasions that we cannot build a Europe on only austerity and fiscal consolidation. We need to restore confidence, growth and hope in national and European leaders so that we can manage this crisis and get Europe out of this very difficult situation.

The past two years since the Lisbon treaty came into force have made it clear that Europe cannot operate without national parliaments. I am impressed by how national parliaments started to use the new prerogatives. We have political dialogue and national parliaments are commenting and sending us opinions on the work of European life and how active it has become. In 2009 we got 250 opinions and received 620 in 2011.

If we use the new subsidiarity check mechanism, from the 1,000 opinions we received since the entering into force of the Lisbon treaty in 87 cases we received so-called reasoned opinions. This means national parliaments believe metrics belong to national rather than European level. We received one from Ireland on the common consolidated corporate tax base. It is a very sensitive issue and we have tried to do our best in our reply. I hope we managed to at least partially clarify the questions sent to the Commission.

When I visit national parliaments, my last plea is usually to ask them for good co-operation in the preparatory phase of legislation. National parliaments are becoming more and more involved in public consultation and discussions on white and green books. They can have enormous input into how the Commission will formalise the legislative proposal. National parliaments should also be interested in the legislative process because Ministers come to the Council and present national positions on the proposals of the Commission.

The third phase is implementation. It is very often up to national parliaments to take their governments into a democratic accountability exercise and look at how European law is transposed and determine if it is being transposed in a correct and precise manner. This is important to ensure a cohesive approach to the application of European rules throughout the Union.

I thank the Chairman for the kind invitation to speak to the committee. I appreciate the fact that one of its first trips after the election was to Brussels. It was not even scared during the power-cut in the Berlaymont when we had to move from our meeting venue on my floor to the rather noisy canteen. Neverthesless, we managed very well. I also thank the committee for the co-operation we have established between this parliament and the European Commission. This mutual co-operation will help us to restore the confidence of Irish and European citizens in national governments and European institutions. This is one of the keys to unlocking the box of this very difficult couple of years and restoring optimism and growth in the European Union.

I was glad to hear the Commissioner's comments on youth unemployment. In Ireland, as he is aware, we have a significant problem, with one in every three young people out of work. In Spain, the position is even worse, in that 51% of young Spaniards are unemployed.

The Commissioner mentioned a study tour and that the participants were coming here next week. Will he tell us a little more about this and about the timescales for when it will report, when its recommendations will be implemented, the measures that might help to solve the youth unemployment problem, the amount of money he expects will be available and whether it will come from the European Social Fund or some other fund?

The Commissioner mentioned the workers at Dell and SR Technics. From being involved in that issue, I know there was a problem in drawing down money from the EU globalisation fund because of the tight deadlines for submitting funding applications. Is that something the Commission could look at to make the arrangements more flexible? When a company sheds its workforce, it often does so very suddenly and it takes time to submit applications. Can the process be made more flexible?

We will take questions from two members at a time. Before the Commissioner answers my questions, I will ask Deputy Bernard Durkan to make his contribution.

I welcome the Commissioner to Ireland. He is doing an excellent job in meeting the members of national parliaments through the various media available for that purpose. This is hugely important and we have all espoused the concept during the years. Members of national parliaments do not have sufficient opportunities to meet each other or find out about each other's feelings on various issues. The Commissioner acts a conduit in that regard, which is of particular importance.

National parliaments now have more influence than they used to have. That has both a positive and a negative impact. National parliaments can obstruct progress, as well as helping in some situations. To what extent can the Commission encourage them along a course that will be to the benefit of the whole European Community as opposed to being obstructive for the benefit of a particular country?

Mr. Sefcovic mentioned a couple of issues that are dear to our hearts. I was a member of the Opposition when the financial collapse took place. The Joint Committee on European Affairs, of which I was Chairman, was invited to Brussels to be told the harsh news. We emphasised the necessity for each member state to recognise the importance of its own input and responsibility and that it was not the responsibility of any single nation to shoulder the burden for what had happened worldwide and throughout Europe. We pointed out emphatically that the degree to which the burden should be shouldered by the Irish, Spanish, Italian or French taxpayers would have to have regard to the ability of the respective economies to carry the burden. We said that by raising the bar too high and increasing the load too much there was a great possibility the spirit of the people would be broken and that we would fail as a result.

Some things that have happened since have proved that we gave wise counsel at the time. We were not acting for our own benefit or from a nationalistic point of view, rather we were looking at matters from a European point of view and that remains the case. We all hope the fiscal compact we have entered into will be recognised and observed in the spirit and the letter by each of the signatories. We must remember that not all countries that were signatories to the Growth and Stability Pact observed it in the spirit and the letter. As a signatory of the fiscal compact, Ireland can operate within a certain narrow band of debt-to-GDP ratio. We all know this because we have responsibilities. The band is narrow and we can move to a certain extent within it but not beyond, nor should other countries move beyond it. The degree to which the compact succeeds will be reliant on the extent to which each member state, within and without the eurozone, accepts its responsibilities. I have submitted a series of parliamentary questions to the Minister on the issue for reply next week. It is of critical importance to the people and the Irish and European economies that we stand by what we agreed to and not walk away from it, as that would have a hugely negative impact on our future prospects.

It is time for a renewal of the European vision which motivated people for 60 years. It needs to be redefined, rediscovered and lived up to by each member state of the European Union. If we, as Europeans, can do this, we will have done a great job. However, that aspect has been missing. Throughout the European Union people have tended to resort to looking after their own affairs, to the exclusion of the common affairs that affect the Community at large.

In the past couple of years there have been many references to the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB, which was seen as an objective that had to be achieved if the European Union was to survive. However, that is far from the truth, as it has nothing to do with the survival of the Union. In the United States of America, for example, there are considerable variations in the taxation system between one state and another, depending on its peripheral location or level of wealth. I will not take up the time of the committee by going into the matter in detail, but it is important that we recognise this fact. I recently had a visit from a Member of Parliament in another European country who was of the opinion that we did not pay tax in this country. It was a ground shuddering realisation that someone would think in that vein. We pay our taxes. As we all know, half our salaries go in tax. Whether we like it or not, that is the way it is. We live up to our responsibilities, in a very serious manner and with conviction. We have done so since joining the then EEC.

What many people throughout the European Union do not understand is that we paid an extremely high price initially for our membership. In the 1970s and 1980s, thousands of jobs in the manufacturing sector in Ireland were lost to competitor countries. Now the European Union is losing manufacturing jobs to its competitors in south-east Asia. Unfortunately, this has often been lauded as a good economic prospect. That is not so because it is incumbent on all the member states of the European Union, both inside and outside the eurozone, to recognise the need for balanced economies. Such economies must encompass the IT sector - to which the Commissioner correctly referred - the innovation sector and the science and technology sector. In addition, we must recognise the need to harness technology in order to ensure that we can retain a fairly high degree of competitiveness in the manufacturing sector. If this is not done - without exception - throughout the EU, then the Union's economy will crumble at some later date as a result of competition from elsewhere.

Much has been made of Ireland's preoccupation with the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy. Ireland is a food-producing nation and it exports 85% of what it produces. It is, therefore, highly dependent on agriculture and the fishing industry. It goes without saying that we have an interest in the European food production sector. If the latter is disadvantaged for any reason whatsoever, then Ireland's food production sector is also disadvantaged. The disadvantage in this regard relates not only to Ireland but also to the European Union as a whole. There are approximately 500 million people in the EU and all of them must eat. We should never lose sight of the fact that such a large consumer market exists within the Union. We must ensure, not for selfish nationalistic reasons but rather for true European and idealistic reasons, that the sector to which I refer is protected.

I hope all member states will observe the rules relating to fiscal discipline in the future. We should be careful not to undermine what has been agreed among European Union member states by subsequent agreements which might be reached in the context of the World Trade Organisation, WTO.

It is clear that youth unemployment is an extremely serious problem and that it represents an enormous waste of potential. We know that, to a certain extent, this problem exists in all EU member states. However, there are eight member states in which the figures relating to youth unemployment are particularly high and where action is very much needed. In that context, we came up with an initiative and suggested to the eight states in question, including Ireland, that they should work much more closely together on how to tackle the unemployment issue. We suggested the creation of action teams. Such teams will be composed of representatives of or experts appointed by governments, social partners and Commission experts and will consider how to use European and national synergies in order to seek solutions to the very sensitive issue of youth unemployment.

We made a request with regard to meeting these new action teams as soon as possible. In Ireland's case, such a meeting will take place next week on 20 and 21 February. We believe we will find a common understanding and identify the type of action plans we will be able to draw up to deal with youth unemployment. We would like these plans to have already been discussed when the next European Council meeting takes place later in the spring. This meeting is traditionally devoted to discussing and dealing with economic matters. We must consider how we can tackle the problem that exists together.

A question arises with regard to whether some of the measures in this regard could be financed through the European Social Fund. In Ireland, most of the money drawn down from this fund has already been allocated. In such circumstances and in conjunction with the Irish Government, we must consider how other programmes are being absorbed, if there are any reserves relating to other programmes and how we can use them better or recalibrate or refocus them in order that they might be used to tackle youth unemployment. From the Commission side, we wish to bring to bear the expertise we have gathered across the entire European Union. One of the ideas we had is very much based on a very good Austrian model, the youth job guarantee programme. Under this, we would encourage member states to set up the measures which would guarantee each young person in the context of getting a job, obtaining a new qualification or pursuing a further education possibility for four months after they complete the education cycle. This programme works in Austria, which has an unemployment rate of 4% at present, the lowest in the EU. There has been a similar experience in other countries so this is the concept we are introducing. We are ready to work with national governments and social partners in the interests of bringing these ideas together. Again, co-operation and a joint effort would be required. I hope we will achieve a positive result.

Reference was made to the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund in the context of companies in Ireland. We managed to simplify the procedure relating to this fund recently, mainly in respect of terms and conditions and also eligibility. However, it will still be some time before we can actually tap in to the finances relating to this fund. That is because the fund does not exist in a physical sense. When there is agreement that the application is eligible, we will mobilise the money. The latter must come from the member states and that always takes a little time. With the new rules that have been put in place, the process should be much easier and faster. If such an unfortunate situation should arise again, I hope we will be able to mobilise the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund much more quickly than in the past.

I thank Deputy Durkan for his contribution and I will try to respond to some of the ideas he put forward. In the coming years it will be very important to have much more intense interaction between national parliaments and institutions at European level, be it the Commission, the Parliament or the Council. It is clear that in respect of many areas which, five or six years ago, it was considered that absolute national sovereignty existed, we simply cannot find national solutions. We discovered only two years ago how interwoven are our affairs and how interdependent we had become, particularly in the context of what an economy which comprises 2% of the overall EU economy can do to the latter and how we can affect the global matrix. I usually joke that if one needed some proof that we are a global power, then one has it because one can see that we can create global problems.

Much more action between national governments and European institutions is going to be required. President Van Rompuy pointed out in a recent speech that we will see a great deal of Europeanisation of national policies because many of the issues to which the Deputy referred, such as economic governance, will be very much managed on both levels. I am sure there will be a debate in Parliament about the new proposals and how Members would like to co-ordinate the budget cycles in the European Union. I reassure the committee that the Commission has no plans to take over national sovereignty and the right to approve and decide upon budgets. It is very clear that it is the absolute sovereign prerogative of the national parliaments of the member states. What we are suggesting is the fact that once the draft is presented, parliaments will get analyses of how the budget proposals are seen by the Commission, as has rightly been pointed out, from the point of view of the obligations which have been collectively adopted on deficit levels, consolidation plans and whether the budget is sustainable according to the EU 2020 strategy. For the first time, the draft budget would be discussed with the finance Ministers of other countries. The finance Minister of one country can comment on the draft budget proposal of his colleagues who will be sitting across the table. National parliamentarians will get feedback. They will get a guarantee of analyses from the Commission that the positions which will be adopted by the Council will be objective and thorough analyses of what is in the budget. In addition, the budgets will have to respect all the international standards. The transparency of the budgetary process will increase. The decision on what kind of budget will be adopted will be for national parliaments. Thanks to all the inputs parliaments will get from the European level, the decisions of parliamentarians will be much more informed than was the case previously. That will be applicable to all member states. We believe that it will have a positive influence on the health of the public finances in member states.

The committee is correct on how the Stability and Growth Pact was broken. Yesterday I participated in a debate in the European Parliament with the Italian Prime Minister, Mario Monti, who said there are not good guys and bad guys in this crisis. We are all responsible for how it happened. Let us look at what happened with the Stability and Growth Pact in 2003 for the first time. The first two countries to break it were Germany and France during the Italian Presidency. Italy let it go because we all believed that it would be corrected soon or that it would not represent such a big problem. We know that despite all the economic analyses and doubts when the euro was launched, one very important thing we needed for the success of the euro and eurozone was fiscal discipline. To achieve that we had one instrument - the Stability and Growth Pact - which was not respected, in particular in this case by the biggest economies in the EU. Therefore, we now see enormous efforts to create a completely new set of rules to make enforcement almost automatic so that we can avoid political influence when it comes to adopting difficult decisions and in certain cases have the possibility to refer the matter to the European Court of Justice.

We will see much more discipline in the future than is the case at present. We already had the first proof when difficult situations arose in five member states who received what some called "love letters from Olli", which meant that Olli Rehn was warning them in December that if they did not meet the agreed targets, a fine would issue. Of the five member states, three adopted corrective measures immediately. It was particularly difficult for Belgium because it has been forming a government for some time and it had been discussing the budget for several months. When faced with the prospect of a cut of €1 billion or paying a fine of €750 million, it decided to go for the cut to avoid paying the fine and simply to respect the commitment, which we believe was a very good decision. I know how difficult it was for the Belgian authorities and the Belgian Government and what difficult discussions they had. By this measure we wanted to show clearly that we cannot afford another slippage or not using to the fullest extent the new instruments we got. We must be much more prudent, careful and demanding because otherwise the situation could arise where we would be in the same difficult circumstances in a couple of years. One country, Hungary, did not meet the criteria and because it is not a eurozone country, we had to seek additional measures. Discussions are now ongoing on what measures we can use. We will most probably consider freezing sectoral funds but we still hope that Hungary will correct the budget projections and that we can get it to respect the criteria which have been established.

I also agree on the need for the renewal of the EU vision because it is obvious that we very much got used to what the EU brought to the European Union: peace, free travel, free study for students, the Single Market, and automatic acceptance of a high level of human rights and freedoms which we enjoy in the EU but which is not a given if one crosses the border out of the European Union. Everyone admires that the EU has high standards of human rights and freedoms but we just take them for granted. However, that was not the case 50 or 60 years ago. Twenty two years ago I was not sure that I would ever visit Austria. Now when I proudly drive at 50 km/h across the border between Slovakia and Austria, I still feel thrilled and proud that it is happening and that the European Union could bring something so remarkable into existence. I understand that the new generation of the political elite and the new young generation have already grown up with things which are still miraculous for some of us and that we need to bring new ideas, renew the European ideals and bring something new. We are overwhelmed with tackling the current crisis but we must consider in the future how we can jointly prepare to make Europe better in the face of all the positive and negative effects of globalisation. We must be clear and honest with ourselves that there is no country in the EU which can do it on its own. We can only do it together. We must find how we can preserve the prominent place we have on the global stage, how to make it even stronger and more prominent and how we can project what is seen everywhere else in the world as a very positive power of the European Union.

I welcome Commissioner Šefcovic and thank him for his presentation. I commend the Commission on its comprehensive work programme for the coming year which contains many interesting legislative proposals. I wish to pick up on the themes of stability and responsibility, growth and solidarity and giving the EU an effective voice. The Chairman mentioned youth unemployment, which is and always has been a serious issue in individual member states and across the Union. Is Mr. Šefcovic concerned that if that is not rectified soon, it could lead to a resentment of the concept of the EU and its institutions in certain countries and could signal a shift to anti-EU political parties among young people? Has the change in structures under President Van Rompuy and Commissioner Ashton worked in terms of their being internationally accepted or recognised as the voices of Europe?

Regarding stability and responsibility, different countries have different reasons for their current circumstances. One could argue the construction booms in Ireland and Spain, for example, were based on cheap money and low interest rates designed to keep Germany and France out of recession. One must bear in mind the banking crisis that took place.

Consider the civil unrest owing to austerity measures in Greece. Previous Greek Governments would have provided misleading information on the country's economic well-being. Is the Commissioner happy that new entrants to the eurozone or Union – we have the fiscal compact and the Growth and Stability Pact – will be vetted properly before being accepted to prevent unrest of the kind evident in Greece?

I thank the Chairman and welcome the Commissioner. I apologise for missing the Commissioner's contribution. I am a member of another committee that was meeting at the same time as this one and I had to discharge my responsibility at it before coming here.

I had an opportunity to see the Commissioner speak in Copenhagen two weeks ago at the COSAC meeting. I recognised at first hand his passion for his role. It is good to see him here and I thank him for his contribution.

I have three questions on which I would appreciate the Commissioner's views. With regard to the first, I am very supportive of the concept of a fiscal compact. I understand how it is part of the solution to our current difficulty but I was really shocked this morning and last night to read the comments exchanged yesterday between the Greek President and the German Finance Minister. I refer to the tone of the statements and the atmosphere they are creating in the effort to resolve the difficulty. We cannot have this discussion in a vacuum. Solidarity is a two-way street; it requires people to live up to commitments they make but also requires onlookers to be aware of the pressure citizens and society are under. I was very disappointed to hear the comments that are now being exchanged in public between crucial players on resolving the crisis affecting the Greek economy and society. While the Commissioner is restrained in what he can say, what is his reaction to the comments and the effect they will have on how people perceive Europe?

Let me proceed to my second question. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to the Commission and Commissioner in stating the role of the Commission and its place in the Union have diminished over recent years. Large countries have come to the fore. I understand why they are doing so but it is a real worry to European citizens such as me and countries such as Ireland because we depend on the Commission to chart a way forward between the views of various countries, be they small or big. Is there acceptance that the role of the Commission has changed? If so, what will the Commission do to reassert its role in the European architecture to ensure the interests of everybody are recognised and to chart our way through the difficulties?

I will end on a small point in respect of which I put my head in my hands and despair. I refer to the location of the European Patent Office. Has this matter been resolved? The office's role is acknowledged in terms of the digital economy and e-commerce and it has a considerable role in unshackling the ability of consumers to spend money efficiently everywhere. Developing a common patent is a big part of the process. All the various parliaments do their bit to pass legislation and the Commission does its bit to bridge a very complicated area, yet nobody can agree on the location of the office. This is shocking. I note the Commissioner is nodding to show we have made some progress in this regard but the problem is reflective of the really significant challenge of having nationally elected parliaments make decisions and recognise that not every country will get everything at once. It is a matter of stepping up to the plate and making a decision.

I want to end on a note of caution. I made clear that I am a supporter of the fiscal compact and I am very supportive of the role of the Commission but a warning bell is ringing in my head, about an issue on which the Commissioner touched. He stated we need to strip of political influence the decisions made in implementing mechanisms for countries that are breaching the protocols of the Stability and Growth Pact. This is a worrying path for us to have to go down because either politicians live up to their responsibilities and do what they are meant to do or they do not. Political decisions are all about getting people elected to do a job. We will have to square the circle of how to re-democratise the institutions in the face of the crisis. If, in a year's time, the price to be paid for the institutions getting us out of our mess is a greater gap between those institutions and the citizens of Europe, the system will not work. We must face up to this challenge soon.

I thank Deputy Donohoe.

I call the Commissioner. I am conscious that we promised the Minister of State that we would conclude in five minutes.

I am sure that if I explain to the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, that I was at a meeting of this committee, she will not be angry with me if I am a little late. I thank the members for their questions. They are experts in EU affairs.

On Deputy Kyne's question on EU citizens' resentment, let us be honest that we very much feel their frustration. I am sure the Members of this Parliament feel it also. We are going through a very difficult political phase. Over the past two years, a Prime Minister was lost every two months in the European Union. The people are frustrated and are unhappy that the crisis is taking such a toll on growth, jobs and living standards. The phenomena we once took for granted and in respect of which we made plans do not exist anymore. The people would like to see change and know how the leaders can get us out of the crisis. We are living in a democracy so it is their right to feel frustrated.

It is important in these difficult discussions that we meet European standards, be honest with citizens and explain the positive aspects of European co-operation and the European Union. The negative aspects are very much described and amplified by the eurosceptic parties, which very often build their positions on simple slogans or exaggerations. Part of the problem we have now arises because, for a long time, we let this so-called blame game continue. What was positive usually was the achievement of the national level, while what was negative was decided on by those guys in Brussels. While I do not need to do so here, because members know this perfectly well, if I meet young people in universities or people who are not so familiar with European affairs, I always try to remind them that all European decisions are adopted by us. There always is a preparatory phase in which everyone can participate and the people and parliaments usually do so. Thereafter, there is the expert phase in which an expert from each member state presents the case. Moreover, the ambassadors must agree, Ministers must agree and the European Parliament must agree. In addition, national leaders also must agree to a measure, after which it must be transposed by national parliaments. Consequently, a European Union decision is not something that is imposed upon the countries by some faceless bureaucrat - or eurocrat as we in the Commission very often are described - but actually is a collective effort. This sometimes does not percolate down to the level of understanding and we must speak up and explain this is our common endeavour. In most cases, we do it right, although of course we make mistakes. When we do so, let us acknowledge them but let us not try to place the blame for where it went wrong on one level as opposed to the others, because this is a common effort. Moreover, it will become increasingly common in the future because of how intertwined and interdependent we are. The positive common agenda can get us out of the crisis and can improve the image of the European Union and the national institutions. As I stated, this reaction is natural but if one is working in this field, it still is sad when such frustration reinforces negative perceptions of the governments and the European Union's institutions.

I will turn to the international position of the European Union and the positions of Mr. Van Rompuy and Baroness Ashton. Mr. Van Rompuy did an enormously great job during this crisis. Only now have we realised how important it is to have a fully fledged President of the European Council who works 24 hours a day for the Council. Members can imagine that it would not be easy, under such difficult circumstances, were one obliged to divide one's responsibilities between being the President of the European Council and being the prime minister or president of one's country. Furthermore, the frequency of the summits it was necessary to hold to adopt a decision gave clear proof of the need to have a President of the European Council who can actually manage such extremely convex and difficult affairs. We in the Commission also are very pleased about the very good co-operation between Herman Van Rompuy and José Manuel Barroso in respect of our prerogative competencies at each Monday morning meeting at which they discuss that agenda. We also are pleased with the co-ordination when it comes to, for example, the G20 or G8 meetings, when it is quite clear the President of the Commission speaks about all the Commission's fields of competencies, while the President of the European Council speaks mostly on Common Foreign and Security Policy and Common Security and Defence Policy issues and this works quite well.

Baroness Catherine Ashton has an extremely difficult role because she started with a position that previously had been covered by three or four people. To be more precise, I refer to former Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner, Mr. Javier Solana and the foreign minister of the member state that held the rotating Presidency. In addition, she covers the role formerly held by the minister for defence of the member state that held the rotating Presidency, because she also chairs that formation. Everything was done on the run. I was part of the so-called quadrilogue, on which I represented the Commission, when we were setting up the External Action Service and it was not easy to create a completely new European diplomatic corps from three sources and to get it to work. Its beginnings were not easy but it already is in an operational phase and is working. As one should not hide the fact that problems still exist, I do not believe there has been a complete cultural change among the Ministers for Finance. It would help were they to realise that now that the Lisbon treaty is in place, we have a clear ratified treaty on how the external representation of the European Union should be ensured and that we really should move behind it and should respect the treaty and provide all necessary support to Baroness Ashton.

Moreover, this would be of tremendous payback to the Foreign Ministers in their national capacities. However, this will take some time because sometimes we have a sterile debate in which one particular member state questions whether almost every declaration we make together pertains to an exclusive or a shared competence. We managed to do this years ago and I can recall that as a political director in my own country when it still was an acceding state, one of the major stress points was when a joint declaration of the European Union was made. As an acceding state, we wanted to be associated with it and consequently had to put into operation our computer system and had to change the whole system in order that we could be part of this very fast-working machine. However, after the enactment of the Lisbon treaty, we have problems in agreeing on what is a shared and what is an exclusive competence to enable us actually to be present as the European Union in the United Nations and all the other international organisations. I cite this single example to describe to members how complex is the world in which Baroness Ashton operates. However, with some time and an understanding that together we are much more influential than when acting as individual member states, we will overcome this issue.

I also agree with Deputy Kyne regarding the bubbles. We have experienced them and they have been extremely painful. Moreover, in Ireland, I do not need to describe how dangerous they have been. Although it would be very difficult to make a clear-cut conclusion that the bubbles have been fuelled by European Union money, one can come to one clear conclusion, which is that we must have a mechanism to prevent us from creating such bubbles. We have adopted the new system and I believe it will work although perhaps some adjustment may be needed in the future. We adopted our first economic imbalance report just this week, in which the position of 14 member states was clearly highlighted in that further analysis would be needed to ascertain whether measures were needed to tackle the imbalances behind the potential creation of bubbles. I hope this will help us to adopt the right responses much more rapidly.

I believe members must go and vote.

Yes; this is a Finance Bill and were the Government to lose it, there would be a general election.

As I want members to adopt good financial decisions, I suggest to Deputy Donohoe that we can conclude our conversation over the telephone or at our next meeting at COSAC because, while I would love to answer his questions, I know members must leave.

Perhaps the Commissioner will be at the COSAC meeting at Copenhagen.

Yes, I will be there.

Some members will be in attendance and look forward to meeting him there. Hopefully, the Commissioner will be in a position to return here to attend COSAC meetings next year, when Ireland will hold the Presidency for the first six months.

I certainly will be here.

We look forward to seeing him again and thank him for his attendance.

I thank the joint committee.

Sitting suspended at 1.20 p.m. and resumed in private session at 1.35 p.m.
The joint committee adjourned at 2 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 February 2012.
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