JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 2012

Exchange of Views: Discussion with German Federal Foreign Office

Chairman

The first item is an exchange of views with Mr. Michael Link, Minister of State at the German Federal Foreign Office. On behalf of the committee I am delighted to welcome you to the meeting. Mr. Link is accompanied by Dr. Eckhard Lübkemeier, ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany to Ireland. He is also welcome. He is also accompanied by Mr. Frank Rückert, the director for north-western Europe at the German Federal Foreign Office, Mr. Frank Schuster, head of the office of the Minister of State and Mr. Peter Zingraf, deputy head of mission and economic counsellor at the German embassy.

Mr. Link has recently been appointed to the post at the German Federal Foreign Office and is making an official visit to Ireland for political talks with his counterparts in the Department of the Taoiseach and in the Department of Finance. As our time is limited to one hour, I have agreed that our discussions will initially focus on three areas, the debt crisis in Europe with a special focus on developments in Ireland; the new fiscal compact treaty and the ESM and EFSF; the EU-IMF programme - Irish progress achieved during the reform - the situation in Greece, Spain and Italy.

I invite the Minister to make his remarks and I will allow questions from members afterwards.

Mr. Michael Link

I thank the Chairman. I will address the members as dear colleagues because although I am a Minister I am also a Member of Parliament and this is my core duty. I am a Member of Parliament for the constituency of Heilbronn in south-west Germany, Baden-Würrtemberg. It is well known for car manufacturing. In my capacity as de facto deputy foreign minister for European affairs, it is very important for me to make contact not only with the governments of the EU partner countries but also with the national parliaments. As a result of the Lisbon treaty we all know that national parliaments are ever more important. This is true for the Bundestag and the Bundesrat - our two chambers - and also for every member parliament. Therefore, my job today is to explain what the German Government is doing or not doing, to explain what we should discuss together in the next months with respect to the agenda of the Irish Parliament and Government and with respect to the agenda of the European Union in general. I also want to have a better understanding of the preparations in Ireland for the Irish Presidency of the EU.

Without wishing to pre-empt any questions from members of the committee, in the case of Ireland it is very clear that one must always make a distinction between what is happening between the different countries of the eurozone, what is happening in Greece, Portugal, Spain and Ireland. In the eyes of the Bundestag and the German people, Ireland is always regarded as a positive example. Ireland is on track and this applies in particular to the Irish people because it is the people who must in the end bear what is decided in the parliament. The Irish population has shown a great readiness for reform and the Irish Parliament has shown the courage for reform. This makes it very easy for Germany to compliment and congratulate Ireland on that success. Of course we know that this is the result of tough work and of ongoing implementation of reforms.

Germany is grateful to Ireland for its response, especially when this is compared with the response in other member states of the eurozone. Therefore, Germany has every interest in being as helpful as possible to enable Ireland to stay on track. We want to be helpful in bringing forward not just fiscal stability but also in promoting growth and jobs. As a result, there are instruments on the table which must be decided upon at the next European Council meeting. It is a fact that most member states in the eurozone area and beyond are now also ready to find a common understanding of fiscal sustainability, of budget discipline. That is a very important point.

The other side of this coin is to decide on how to put the available funds to better use in the promotion of growth and jobs. Therefore, for Germany, the promotion and development of the Single Market is extremely important. We want to keep the member states competitive and competitiveness includes that member states are able to use the competitive advantages of the Single Market so we need a strong Single Market. We also need a strong Commission to press for equal implementation of decisions made by the EU while also not interfering in the business of the member states. This is also relevant to some discussions happening in Ireland in the past year in particular.

In general, it should be remembered that Europe is much more than fiscal stability, jobs and growth because it also means a common set of values and of rules. It also means that we have the same degree of rule of law and an independent judiciary in every member state. As regards Europe's position in the world, common foreign and security policy and common security and defence policy are a very high priority for Germany. We know that many member states need to discuss these policies and we are very interested to hear and to have a better understanding of the Irish position on matters such as the fiscal compact and Article 1.36 and jobs and growth and also the Irish position on the other areas because we should not forget that Europe is much more than a common market.

I thank the committee and I will be very pleased to answer any questions and to have a discussion with members.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly

I welcome the Minister and his colleagues to the meeting. I appreciate the positive affirmative remarks of the Minister with regard to our country. This country is on course and we are meeting our targets under the EU-IMF programme satisfactorily. The question arises as to why we cannot apply a Keynesian solution to Europe in a simple, straightforward way because of the demographic profile in Europe and other considerations such as the high dependency levels in the population, etc. Accepting that, there has to be a very strong case for a stimulus for job creation because as jobs are created, those individuals are removed from welfare and a tax income is generated. There is also a significant personal implication for the individuals and their families. We believe we are embarking as best we can. Under the programme we have negotiated to use a section of moneys from the sale of State assets for a jobs stimulus. In my view, there is a need for the facilitation of a very active job creation stimulus across Europe. What is Mr. Link's response to that?

I will be succinct rather than make speeches but will Mr. Link respond to our wish to deal with the promissory notes - in other words, the commitment to Anglo Irish Bank's debts which are, effectively, debts outside the control of the populations of Germany and the Republic of Ireland? Will he respond to the need, from an Irish perspective, to do something about the promissory notes, that is, to make a new arrangement, whether a long-term arrangement or the elimination of some of the debts? They are a major block to the development of the economy. If we continue with the programme in the absence of an effective job stimulus programme and in the absence of assistance in regard to the debts associated with the collapse of Anglo Irish Bank, ultimately, there will not be sufficient growth for the country to develop. I would be interested in Mr. Link's response to that. Perhaps this relates to the previous questions but how does Mr. Link see the ESM working in the future to establish control, create stimulus and get economies going?

Ireland is proud of what it has achieved and of what it is doing, and Mr. Link recognised that. To what degree can we get a similar approach in other European countries? The anecdotal evidence is that the Irish approach is almost unique in that respect and that there is a need for it to spread more.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

I welcome Mr. Link and those accompanying him, some of whom we have met before. It is good to know Germany believes Ireland is on track. The Irish Government has given much leadership but it has not been without considerable pain to the population. We want Germany to get the message that cuts to primary education are not acceptable in terms of building a strong country and of being a driver of growth into the future, which education is.

My question relates to what the German Finance Minister, Mr. Schåuble, was heard saying off the record to the Portuguese Finance Minister but which was caught on camera. We keep hearing from Brussels and, indeed, Berlin, that the Greek deal was a specific case and its results would not effect the bailout conditions for Ireland or other countries like Portugal. However, Mr. Schåuble was heard saying to the Portuguese Finance Minister at a recent meeting that an adjustment to Portugal's programme would be acceptable to Germany after the Greek bailout was concluded. We are at this point now.

A contradictory message is coming from Berlin given the weight a statement like that from the German Finance Minister can have. Does Mr. Link agree that if the Greek bailout can result in an adjustment to Portugal's programme, then surely Ireland's bailout conditions are now open to adjustment as well?

My second question relates to the new Greek bailout deal. Interestingly, the markets are still reacting with uncertainty to the announcement as it seems they still believe Greece may not be able to meet the requirements of the new deal. Does Mr. Link believe this reaction by the markets was expected? Is the troika trying to ensure there is a more orderly default for Greece? What is his reaction to that? The first question is the most important.

Chairman

I would like to ask a question before I ask Mr. Link to respond. He will be aware that Ireland is looking at the draft fiscal compact and that it is now with our Attorney General who will make a decision as to whether we require a referendum. My question is around the status of the fiscal compact.

Mr. Link may be familiar with the speech made by François Hollande, one of the candidates for the French Presidency. He made a speech at Le Bourget recently in which he said that his first move if elected President would be to meet with the Chancellor of Germany and tell her that we must change the orientation in Europe to growth. He also said he would act in favour of the creation of euro bonds. If there is a change of government in France and a change of strategy, how will Germany react to a potential change to the fiscal compact?

Mr. Michael Link

I thank the Chairman. I would like to begin in reverse order, if possible, because there are many indicatory points in the last question in regard to the first two. The French electoral campaign is intense. We all know electoral campaigns generate much noise. Nobody knows who will win the election and nobody knows exactly what will happen if Mr. Hollande wins. Therefore, I would draw a very clear line between what is being said now in the special situation of an electoral campaign and what will actually happen. We must answer that question then and not now. However, if we began to renegotiate what has been agreed by 25 member states in this case, then the whole project of the European Union would be in trouble. That is just as a general principle.

In the case of the topical remarks of François Hollande, we have to say that if he is right, then, of course, we will run into trouble but we are doing much to stimulate growth in the EU. Much more is on the table for the next European Council meeting. In response to the question by Deputy Joe O'Reilly, it is still too early to say whether it will results in a concrete programme of stimulating growth, especially for Ireland. However, we hear very clearly that this is the wish, especially of the Irish people. Much more support will be given to stimulate growth. We should think together to see how we can do so concretely. The preparations are under way. The Taoiseach will meet Chancellor Merkel tomorrow in order to prepare what will happen at the European Council meeting.

It is very clear that we need more concrete action to stimulate growth. On the one hand, we need to extinguish the fire of increased state debt in many euro zone member countries, while on the other, we need very concrete proposals to stimulate growth and jobs. Germany actively and very concretely supports the Danish Presidency which has exactly that as a priority.

On the question of who suffers in the current situation, Senator Healy Eames said it is not without pain. We fully recognise that what is going on in Ireland requires sacrifice from the population and readiness for even more sacrifices in the future. In Germany, especially in the past 20 years to 30 years and in particular after reunification, we often had to do things which were quite unpopular among the public. It is sometimes difficult to find public support for programmes like the ESM and the EFSF but nevertheless we do it because we stick to European solidarity and we are ready to intensify it. That brings me to the question on how concretely the ESM is working. There are negotiations over the ESM to make it fully operational at an earlier point and to make it available earlier if necessary. I refer to the discussions on the firewall. Germany is ready to show European solidarity on this aspect. We are trying to make our commitment to the ESM as complete as possible and we will do so by ratifying it very quickly and doing so against the public majority opinion in Germany. If we want a functioning EU, we should also have the instruments to help those in trouble for a limited time until they are back on their feet. Ireland is the positive example and we should think about how we can get Ireland fully back on its feet. It is better that it is independent from the EFSF sooner rather than later.

One question referred to promissory notes of the IBRC, which is easier for me to understand as the former Anglo Irish Bank. This matter has been tabled in the Eurogroup and deliberations are under way. We will see what happens in the next Eurogroup meeting. Discussions are under way and it is something on which Ireland must send the right signals. As friends in the EU, we should be open and every signal that gives the impression Ireland is not on track should be avoided. With respect to markets, this point must be made in such a way that it is very clear that it is not about going off track. It is about trying to be even more on track. It is delicate and therefore we should wait for the next Eurogroup meeting.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames

Is the commitment made to Portugal by the Minister also available to Ireland?

Mr. Michael Link

I did not forget that but I had not finished. This was not a public statement. He made a statement unofficially and I do not know what he said. Frankly speaking, he cannot decide everything alone - this must be decided by the Eurogroup. Regarding the next bailout, the question was whether there is readiness for an adjustment to Portugal after the Greek bailout and whether this would mean readiness for an adjustment to Ireland's agreement. There are a lot of ‘ifs'. We need to know if there is agreement on the next rescue package for Greece. As of today, it looks like we will have another package for Greece. The Bundestag is ready to vote on it next Monday but the preparations are still under way. It is not yet certain that every condition for prior action is met. With regard to Portugal, we are completely at the beginning of any possible discussion because we still have the commitment of the Portuguese Government to stick to its commitments and fulfil what has been pledged. If new developments arise during the year we will discuss them then, not now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I welcome the Minister and his colleagues to this meeting and I congratulate him on his statement. He mentioned the need for interaction between various euro member states, which is true. Some of us complain that the lack of interaction between the European Union and between euro member states in particular has been a cause of concern over the past four or five years. In particular, members of the previous Dáil went to meet our colleagues in Brussels some months before the election and pointed out then what has been pointed out in the aftermath. This included the point that the degree to which the Irish economy would be able to carry the burden of the imposition of debt and borrowings would be a major issue for the retention of some stability in our society and ultimately our ability to repay debts. Adlai Stevenson is famous for saying "no gain without pain" and we realise there must be pain. There is pain and we can deal with it but we also need recognition of the extent of sacrifices being made. I am not addressing Germany directly on this point but there has been a tendency of various member states addressing the worldwide community as if only one member state was involved. That is not the case but it is always helpful for those having difficulty to know there is recognition of the position elsewhere. In this country, we do not seek anything for nothing. We had a hard upbringing and we recognise that the rest of Europe had a hard upbringing as well. I compliment Germany on the sacrifices made over the past 20 years. It took great courage and commitment to do so and to address issues within its economy.

We accept the compact and will do everything to make sure it is passed. What worries me is whether each and every member state within the number that have signed up will adhere to the spirit and the letter of the agreement. There was something similar in the Growth and Stability Pact and there was not universal acceptance. There should have been a trigger mechanism to alert everyone else. This is included in the new proposals. The old excuse was that because interest rates were centrally controlled by the ECB and because they were low, there was nothing various economies could do to curb inflation but that is not true. There is no difficulty in curbing inflation now even though interest rates have reduced further. What we were led to believe was incorrect. Some of us challenged this on numerous occasions but expert opinion prevailed even though it was incorrect.

We need a common understanding and we need to have regard for each other's difficulty. Mr. Link mentioned noise around election time. We could have made noise around election time as well but we did not. We allowed silence to prevail in certain areas but we will not go into that again. We need to have respect for each other's position and understand each other. We are not all part of a minor entity - we all have something to contribute to the totality of Europe. Adenauer, Monet and the founding fathers had a vision for Europe. We also have that vision and we do not come to the table on the basis of getting something for nothing. We have something to deliver and we will do so but we would like it recognised across Europe.

Deputy Mick Wallace

I welcome the Mr. Link. Does Mr. Link agree the latest Greek programme will bring a deeper recession, more unemployment and social unrest? The troika's figures are based on a minus growth of 4.3% in Greece in 2012, breaking even in 2013 and 2% growth from there on. The dogs in the street know this will not happen. Does Mr. Link really believe Greece will meet the new agreement? The delegates stated the Irish people have shown themselves ready for reform. The Irish Government may have done so but our domestic economy is in the throes of depression and austerity is killing us. The problem is getting worse and the cuts made in numerous budgets have sapped the economy. Circumstances are very difficult for the ordinary people. The truth is that, although our export figures are good, mostly due to foreign investment despite the fact that this does not create as many jobs as we would like, 90% of the people working in the country are working in the domestic economy. Our biggest export at present is young people. We are exporting just under 40,000 young people per annum. Austerity might be a good fiscal plan for the whole of Europe from Germany's perspective but it is not pretty good for Ireland. Do the delegates believe Germany may recognise it will kill the rest of Europe with forced austerity? Do they believe there is a chance there may be a change of philosophy along the way?

Senator Terry Leyden

I extend our warmest welcome, céad míle fáilte, to Mr. Michael Link, the ambassador and their colleagues. We are delighted to have them present today. This is a great opportunity to meet them. Under the Lisbon treaty, parliaments rightly have and should have a greater role to play. Mr. Link said that, as a parliamentarian, he is very conscious of this. I thank him for this.

Reference was made to the Irish Presidency next year. Our Presidency is very important but it will not be as glorious as the Presidency of 1990, after the Berlin Wall came down. The reunification of the great country of Deutschland was negotiated in Dublin. These are great memories for Germany and Ireland. It was a very proud moment in our history.

As a former Minister of State responsible for trade and negotiating the Single European Act, I acknowledge I received great co-operation from Mr. Link's colleagues, who are probably not now in government. Trade between Ireland and Germany is very strong. It is very important that this relationship continue.

I thank the delegates for their responses to my colleagues. The delegation is quite perceptive about election promises. We heard an election promise a year ago to the effect that it would be Labour's way rather than Frankfurt's way. The Fine Gael Party-----

Chairman

Time is limited.

Senator Terry Leyden

-----said it would burn the bondholders. I want the delegates to be conscious of the noises at election time, as Deputy Durkan referred to them. It was an interesting perception.

Chairman

We must move on.

Senator Terry Leyden

We will move on.

The main issue has been mentioned already. I refer to the secured and unsecured bondholders of two private banks, Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide. They are crippling the people. Germany had major debts from 1945 onwards which were settled only quite recently. They imposed a major burden on the German people but they solved the problem, just as we will solve ours in due course. However, we need to renegotiate the agreement from 2008. That is our interpretation.

The German Minister has a good idea as to where we stand in Ireland. We appreciate and respect the wonderful solidarity and support from Chancellor Merkel and we acknowledge the support we have always received from the German people. There is no question about that. German tourist numbers in Ireland are very strong and trade between our two countries is significant. It is vital that these trends and the euro continue. I commend the German Chancellor and Minister for Finance who are taking on the task of addressing the Greek debt, which comprises a responsibility and problem for all member states.

It is the Irish Government that must renegotiate the deal, not this committee. We support the work of our Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, in this regard. However, as Deputy Wallace stated, there needs to be a return to having some development and progress in Ireland. Doom and gloom will not get us out of this recession. We must have confidence. There needs to be an end to the uncertainty. If this is achieved, people will know where they stand and will be able to look to the future with hope and confidence. That is the key point.

Mr. Michael Link

I will be brief. For economic, political and legal reasons, the Federal Government of Germany is very critical of the mutualisation of debt associated with Eurobonds. Perhaps it would take too long to explain that position. Our Government and Parliament must stick to the German constitution, just as the Irish must stick to theirs. Therefore, in everything we do, we always try to bear in mind the legal restrictions and constitutional provisions of member states, including Germany, Ireland and Holland. These must be the centre of attention for all of us. Therefore, I ask the Irish to watch closely what our constitutional court will decide on this issue on 28 February and, in a second ruling, in mid-March. As of today, our constitutional court has very clearly ruled out the possibility of Eurobonds. It and we believe – I pretty much concur – that with the existing European treaties, it is impossible to have mutualisation of public debt. I refer in particular to Article 126 and those following it.

With regard to what Deputy Durkan stated, Ireland's hands are not empty. We are fully convinced that Ireland is ready to and will pay every debt. We trust it will do so. When I said we believe the European Union is a union of equals, I did not mean that some countries make decisions for others. This is not our understanding of the European Union.

Many eyes are on Franco-German co-operation, with a soupçon of doubt that it wants to bully others into a certain position. That is absolutely not the intention of Franco-German co-operation; it is to structure the debate, bearing in mind our history. France is the country with which Germany had the most wars. In Franco-German co-operation, there is a much deeper sense. We try always to proceed in an inclusive way. If sometimes there is a need for readjustments, one can be sure the German Federal Foreign Office presses very much for them.

The Franco-German friendship must be an inclusive one, not an exclusive one; that is very important. If this continues, it will be to the benefit of other member states. It was important for me to come to Ireland early. I took office four weeks ago. My first trip was to Denmark, which holds the Presidency. I went also to Paris, since France is the most important neighbour. I then went to London. In these times, when London opts out in many areas, it is especially important to go there and not give those who would in any way like to leave the Union the impression that we would give them an easy way out. It is quite the opposite; we need the United Kingdom on board. All those who are in favour of competition, jobs, growth and open borders, especially in regard to open trade, will know it is important to have the United Kingdom on board. Strengthening the Single Market is also important and, therefore, it was important for me to go to the United Kingdom. Then the next trip was to Ireland. Senator Leyden mentioned the Irish Presidency. The Irish Presidency is a unique opportunity to prove again how close Germany and Ireland are. We are very close on many issues, not just on those I mentioned, such as questions of trade and our understanding of the European institutions. This closeness is not seen very often. Both Ireland and Germany are very much in favour of a strong Commission, but one which does not lose itself in detailed legislation. We are interested in a Commission that is strong with regard to implementing the acquis communautaire. That is very important. I wish other great partners in the European Union would be as close to our position as Ireland is. We need Ireland and Ireland can trust Germany to listen carefully to the political debates in Dublin and in Ireland in general.

With respect to Deputy Wallace, we disagree on the point that Germany seeks austerity and that in doing that it will kill the rest of Europe. However, if this is the perception, it is clear we must communicate better. If that was our aim, that would mean we had learned nothing from history as Germans. We can only develop and have a positive future in Germany if the rest of Europe develops as well. No other country in the European Union has more borders with other EU countries than Germany. We have the most central position, not only geographically but also due to the size of our population. We are very export dependent, so how could we survive if there was not enough purchasing power in other parts of Europe to co-operate with us? Apart from that, we should never forget that Europe is also a project for peace. Therefore, we are not thinking about austerity, but about sticking to the rules we apply to ourselves.

Deputy Durkan mentioned the Stability and Growth Pact, which Europe has discussed already. We agreed on it, but then did not respect it. The German Government did not respect it either. Nevertheless, we say today that it is important to stick to the rules, not to austerity as an end in itself, but as one element necessary to keep the common currency together.

Chairman

Thank you. Three members wish to contribute, but Mr. Link must leave by 3.30 p.m. Therefore, I ask the members to keep their questions to a minute or a minute and a half to enable the Minister of State to respond.

Senator Kathryn Reilly

I welcome Mr. Link. Many of those who have commented thus far have put the cause of the crisis down to over-borrowing, whether by private individuals or certain governments. Indeed, last month at the World Economic Forum in Davos, our Taoiseach said that the people simply went mad borrowing. As that seemed to be the case, few people have questioned from where the over-lending came. With regard to the bail out, Joschka Fischer, former German Foreign Minister, said "In the backrooms in Dublin it was our [state-owned] Landesbanks earning all the money to the delight of our state governments of all political persuasions". What is the Minister of State's opinion of the role of German banks and credit institutions in creating the conditions on the ground that led to this over-borrowing? Was there a failure by the German state therein to regulate the lending rules of German banks, which led in part to where we are now in Europe? How will such failures be prevented in the future?

I will finish with a short question. Last year, the Irish people were incensed that the Bundestag was discussing Irish budgetary proposals before they had come before the Irish Parliament or people. What is the Minister of State's opinion on that?

Senator Colm Burke

I am going to begin on a different issue. It is important to realise the many positives in Ireland. For example, between 1990 and 2008, the number of people working in Ireland increased from 1.2 million to over 2.1 million. Over a very short time period, there was a huge growth in employment and the situation will be positive again.

With regard to employment across Europe, there is a lack of joined-up thinking in Europe with regard to getting to markets where there is greatest growth, such as those in China, India and Brazil. Each country in Europe does its own thing and tries to get its share of those markets. Europe is the least successful with regard to capturing those markets and there is no common approach towards working together in order to get a bigger slice of that growing market. What is envisaged over the next two to three years in that regard? If we want to grow employment, we must grow our share of those markets. I give a simple example of how a country can react in these circumstances. I had the privilege of serving in the European Parliament for a period and was on the internal market committee when there was a concern about sub-standard Chinese toys coming into Europe. The European Commissioner went to China in June 2008 and within two to three weeks, the Chines closed down 700 toy factories which were producing sub-standard toys, because they wanted to preserve their share of the European market. We do not have the same kind of mechanism in Europe for responding to changes in the world market. What can we do to ensure all European countries get the benefit of a bigger slice of that growing market.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome Mr. Link and the delegation. Our Government recommends that we get our finances in order and that we close the gap between our spending and our income and say that is only because of our EU partners that we will be able to solve our financial problems. Is the Minister of State concerned by how the current crisis is affecting the sentiment of the German people towards the European Union, particularly as Germany is the largest contributor, not alone to the European Union but also to the rescue package? Is there recognition within Germany by the people that Ireland is not Greece? Do they recognise our strong export base, our good record of foreign direct investment into the country, our strong tax base and our ability to collect taxes?

Chairman

The Minister of State can take as long as he needs, but I am aware he must leave shortly.

Mr. Michael Link

I thank the members who put this third round of questions. I would like to stay longer if that was possible, but this is just my first visit, not the last. I have plans and have suggested that I could come back to Ireland in the autumn and if the committee is interested, I will be available to come again then. It is particularly important to visit often or regularly while Ireland holds the EU Presidency.

On the question of whether Germany should have intervened when German banks were lending money to Irish people, it is difficult to say. It is not the job of the German Government to tell German banks or the Irish people what to do. That is not our job. Nevertheless, what has happened is, in a way, an indication that market control was ineffective and insufficient. Otherwise, why do we need a fiscal compact or a euro plus package or the debt brakes in national legislation? We need them to remind everybody, even after elections, that they cannot reinvent the world and that there are fiscal rules and disciplines for which we must have legal respect. We must stick to some common rules in the area of our common currency or otherwise the whole thing will implode.

Deputy Kyne asked how the current crisis affects the mood of the German public. That has a lot to do with the way the issues are reported. Often the reaction of the tabloid newspapers is to try to make a scandal out of what is happening in Greece. Indeed, it was a scandal. In the first instance, it was a scandal of how we in the European Union behaved when it came to sticking to the rules and not turning a blind eye to bad developments. The scandal was that Greece was cheating us when it delivered wrong numbers on the statistical issues and data. It takes two to tango, however. Too often the Commission, the European Parliament and the Council have turned a blind eye to actual developments. We are sometimes at risk of turning a blind eye to what is going on in other areas. I refer to troublesome issues like the media law in Hungary and the new Hungarian constitution. We think it is important to explain to German voters and the German public that the EU is also their thing and that if Germany were to go into splendid isolation, it would damage itself and the whole European project. No other country in the European Union has more neighbours than Germany. Therefore, it is even more important that Germany always tries to play an integrating role rather than a polarising one. That is one of the key lessons from our painful history.

I could not agree more with what Senator Colm Burke said about closed markets. It is very important for the EU to put all of its negotiating power - its leverage through the World Trade Organisation, etc. - behind trying to make it possible to participate in these emerging markets. The belief in open trade is not based only on allowing others to come to us. We are against a protectionist approach. The Minister and the Federal Government are in favour of opening the European market to agricultural goods and textiles from countries like Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. We have to open up in many areas, but others also have to open up. I could not agree more with what was said about India and China. It is very important for the 27 member states of the EU to use their collective leverage to negotiate the power to participate in these emerging markets.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Link. On behalf of the committee, I thank him and his team for attending today's meeting and participating in such a frank exchange of views. The message we would like him to take away from this meeting is that we remain committed Europeans. We remain committed to getting Ireland back on track. We are picking up the pieces. We also want Mr. Link to appreciate that we did not get into this situation on our own. We would like Mr. Link to take with him the message that we need solidarity from our European partners, from European parliaments and from European citizens. We look forward to taking him up on his offer to return to this forum. We hope to see him in front of the committee again in the near future.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23 February 2012.