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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 15 Mar 2012

Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union: Discussion

I remind members, guests and witnesses that it is important to ensure their mobile phones are switched off. They should not be put on silent because even on silent they interfere with the recording equipment and as a result people's contributions may not be recorded.

The first item on our agenda today is the intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union. As part of our ongoing discussions on the treaty, we have invited a cross-section of guests from Irish society to the committee. Many academics have made presentations to date and we have had ambassadors in to discuss their views on how the fiscal compact will impact on people. Today, we have a cross-section of guests from Irish civil society. Addressing the committee today, we will have Professor Gerry Boyle from Teagasc, Mr. James Doorley, a director of the National Youth Council of Ireland, Ms Marie Sherlock from SIPTU, and Dr. Seán Healy from Social Justice Ireland. I welcome all of them here today.

I remind members of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are only entitled to qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only evidence connected to the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Professor Gerry Boyle to make his presentation.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation to attend. I want to focus on the fiscal compact treaty in the context of the significant investment opportunities in Irish agriculture and food over the next period. I wish to tackle three areas in particular. First, I wish to emphasise the importance of the agrifood sector for the national economy and to look at some recent trends. I also want to explain briefly the relevance of the fiscal compact treaty to the prospects of the sector. The main point I wish to make relates to the sector's requirements for investment over the medium term and how these might be affected by the macroeconomic context.

I remind members of the committee that during the Celtic tiger years the agrifood sector was the Cinderella industry. However, more recently it has a become a beacon of opportunity in terms of exports, output and job creation. If we add the food and drinks sector to primary agriculture, it is currently worth approximately 7% of GDP. It is also worth approximately 7% of employment. We had a bumper year last year for exports, which amounted to 10%. Probably of more importance is the fact that exports from agriculture generate far more economic activity than any other sector because of the low import content. A good summary of this was demonstrated in a study done a couple of years ago which showed that every €100 million of growth in exports contributes nearly €50 million to GNP, versus approximately €20 million for the modern sectors.

The consensus, not only in Ireland but globally, would be that the agrifood sector looks to have very favourable medium term prospects. In most commodity areas, we are facing and have already experienced a deficit and have experienced a structural deficit in food production, particularly in the grain sector. The population projections are well known, as are projections for income growth in key emerging economies. This is associated with substantial shifts in diet. In the emerging economies there is a major shift from grain or cereal based diets to higher protein diets. In the more developed economy markets, a shift in food consumption has also been under way for some time.

On the other side of the equation and looking globally, we see a disturbing development of low productivity and limited land availability for the production of food.

There are interesting graphics showing the performance of the agricultural sector with the rest of the economy. On the left hand side of the screen, members will see that the lower graph displays the performance measured in gross domestic product at constant prices for all sectors. We can contrast that with the upward trend in agriculture as a whole. In some respects the graphic on the right hand side is more interesting. The top two lines on that graph show the output of the modern sectors, pharmaceuticals and ICT. Just lagging those sectors in terms of economic output is the dairy sector. We are living through a remarkable transformation in industrial production which sees the dairy sector on a par with the modern sectors.

I would like to outline some channels through which the fiscal compact treaty might influence the performance and prospects for the agrifood sector. Most commentators are in agreement that the fiscal treaty can only be viewed as a component part of restoring macroeconomic stability in the eurozone. For a sector like agrifood, exchange rate stability has always been of major consequence and critical to the performance of agrifood exports. I mentioned 2011 as a record year for food exports. They were close to €9 billion, representing an increase of 12%, roughly €1 billion, on the previous year. The dispersal of those exports among our main markets is interesting. Some 41% of our exports still depend on the UK market, 34% on continental Europe and 25% on other markets. The export environment, particularly the exchange rate context, is very important.

The general concern about macroeconomic stability is related. It is particularly important in ensuring what I might call a benign environment for investment and growth in the sector. In this respect, the agrifood sector is no different from other tradeable sectors in the economy but its export dependence, particularly its dependence on the UK market, marks it out for particular consideration.

Members of the committee will be aware of Food Harvest 2020, the strategic document introduced by the previous Government and endorsed by the present Government. The targets in Food Harvest 2020 are ambitious. They are set with respect to a base that is the average of the 2007-09 period. The committee is, no doubt, aware that the most ambitious targets are set for the dairy sector. In particular, a 50% increase in the volume of dairy output is suggested for 2020. Of course, that will be hugely influenced by the abolition of the dairy quota in 2015. What is important in terms of the investment requirements is that achieving this output will require significant investment in the milk processing sector. There is a huge challenge for that sector to process the additional raw material into marketable products and commodities on a global basis.

Ambitious targets have also been set for the other sectors. It is worth noting that, as far as the livestock sectors are concerned, the targets are somewhat less demanding than in milk, in that they are value targets and can be lifted by positive performance and price. The targets set are 20% for the cattle and sheep sectors and 50% for the pig sector. Depending on the price and quantity composition of value, the consequences for downstream processing, in particular for the investment needs, will differ as between the different sectors.

I will give the committee a sketch of the kind of investment that may be required at both farm and food stages, so that members appreciate the significant developments that are likely to take place over the next few years. I might start with the farm level itself. The target of 50% is very ambitious. At present, we supply about 5 million litres to processing. If the 50% target is realised, that will rise to 7.5 million litres by 2020. This will require significant investment on farms. New cows will have to be brought into the system as well as new housing, milking parlours, storage facilities and so on. New waste management facilities will be required and, for many farmers, the acquisition of new farmland. From our assessment, we are confident that the 50% target is achievable. Some might say it is conservative. We are also confident that much of the additional supply can be produced with existing facilities on farm, so that the short-run investment demand for those farms may not be significant. Nonetheless, additional investment will be needed for new entrants into the system. Again, we are confident that those new entrants will be coming through. For example, in the last four years, Teagasc agricultural colleges have seen an 80% increase in student numbers, which is unprecedented in any sector of the economy in such a short period of time. Many of these students will wish to establish new businesses. Let me give members a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the potential investment involved. Some 1,000 new entrants could easily require an investment in excess of €200 million. That is a conservative projection.

When we come to the implications for processing we really see the investment that will be required over the next few years and which will have to take place in advance of 2015. Investment will be required in processing. Facilities in that area are very close to capacity and investment in new plants will be essential. Trying to quantify the scale of investment is difficult because it depends on many factors. For instance, it is not clear what type of dairy commodities will be needed to be produced with the additional raw material. A question surrounds the scale of the new plants. There is much discussion on this issue at present and on the appropriate scale economies for the seasonal system of milk production we have in Ireland. There are other barriers, particularly to the development of new sites. The biggest one will be the environmental barrier. Questions arise as to whether or not it will be possible to construct new plants adjacent to existing ones. Will plants have to go to greenfield sites? There is an important economic and social issue as to where these plants will be geographically located.

A number of estimates are available and they vary substantially. The needs depend to some degree on the level of plant automation and this will, in turn, impact on the labour requirements. I have already spoken about location whether greenfield or brownfield plants. For instance, additional costs of supplying utilities to greenfield plants will be significant. Some estimates suggest that the costs involved in additional plant and expansion of plant would be in the order of €350 million to perhaps €400 million and this excludes working capital and utility costs that may arise and costs around environmental impact and so forth. Teagasc estimates suggest that five to six additional cheese or home-made powder plants may be required to be constructed to process the extra 50% in milk supplies.

The situation with regard to meat processing does not seem to require as much investment, in our view. The target is probably less ambitious in that it is a value target set in Food Harvest 2020. Excess capacity seems to be the norm across the meat processing sector rather constrained capacity. One exception is in the case of the pig sector where the 50% output value growth will require significant production volume expansion and that may need additional capacity.

To conclude, I reiterate the point that we are heading into a period which is quite exceptional in terms of the prospects for the agrifood sector. This is not just an Irish phenomenon but rather it is a phenomenon which is recognised globally at this point. Food Harvest 2020 is the blueprint for growth in the sector but it is important to underline that to achieve the very ambitious targets will require significant levels of investment on farms and in food processing. I would advance the view - I acknowledge that this is a matter of judgment and opinion - that enshrining fiscal rules in legislation ought to buttress macro-economic stability in the eurozone and thus positively affect the investment climate for the agrifood sector. However, I acknowledge that the investment climate will also be affected by other factors, not least the inherent and now evident design flaws in the eurozone architecture, which will, presumably, be addressed in time. The scarcity of credit in the context of the banking crisis is an issue for agriculture as it is for many other sectors. The volatility in agricultural products and input prices is quite extraordinary at the moment, even if the level of price is equally buoyant. Environmental constraints in the medium term will be significant and other factors which will influence the investment climate will be the need for greater flexibility in the land market.

I thank Professor Boyle. I invite Mr. James Doorley, the director of the National Youth Council of Ireland, to make his presentation.

Mr. James Doorley

On behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland I welcome this opportunity to speak to the committee concerning the intergovernmental treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance.

The National Youth Council of Ireland is a representative body of approximately 50 national voluntary youth organisations who work with children and young people in every community, village, town and city in Ireland. Our vision is one where young people are empowered to develop the skills and confidence to fully participate as active citizens in an inclusive society.

The NYCI has always had a very strong European and international perspective, working with similar national youth organisations and across Europe. The organisation is affiliated to the European Youth Forum in Brussels and was a special observer member of the National Forum on Europe which was in place a number of years ago. We welcome the opportunity to exchange views with the committee concerning the treaty which will be put to the people in the coming months. I will not deal in detail with the technicalities of the fiscal rules laid out in the treaty as the committee has the benefit of expert views on the matter.

I wish to put forward some comments and questions about the implications of the treaty in the broader perspective and particularly with regard to the impact on young people and those who work with them. Will the treaty require the Government to impose more and deeper cuts than are economically or socially just and wise? In our view, there is a need for greater EU action on social issues and a social vision is needed rather than just a focus on economic and fiscal matters. We may need to sign up to the treaty in the short term but what are the long-term implications for our society and economy? What are the implications of enshrining this treaty into the Constitution, especially in the medium to long term, if the treaty is no longer required in the European Union or if it is not implemented?

A key concern which many commentators have raised is that the fiscal treaty requires us to have further cuts for a decade or even longer. I accept the targets in the treaty are very much predicated on growth in the long to medium term and this will mean a radical change. However, if the economy does not grow sufficiently, we are concerned that the treaty will bind the country to rigid rules requiring more deeper cuts than is economically or socially wise or just. In the view of the NYCI, this will lead to more unemployment and poverty. I know the members of the committee are familiar with the concerns of their constituents and they will know that the recession has impacted very heavily on young people. The live register figures show that more than 75,000 young people are signing on and that one in three young men between the ages of 18 and 25 is unemployed. We have seen the growth of long term unemployment among young people which has risen from about 12,000 at the start of last year to just over 16,500 at the end of 2011. One of the more startling figures appeared in a report which showed that the numbers of young people between the ages of 18 and 25 who are in work, has declined from 250,000 at the start of 2008 to half that figure, about 127,000, at the end of 2010. We are now dealing with the phenomenon of emigration and we know that the vast majority of the people who have to leave this country are young people.

This treaty will be discussed against that background. When the recession hit in 2008, many of us, including the NYCI, probably naively did not expect it to last this long. Many were hoping it would have been over by now. We note that many people are still quite hopeful and many people believe that there will be light at the end of the tunnel, perhaps next year or in 2014. This is particularly the view of young people who are currently in secondary or third level education and who will be leaving education in the next number of years. The NYCI concern is that if this treaty is implemented, there is the danger that we could be looking at long-term cuts and austerity measures and this would be a crushing blow to those many thousands of young people. One of the positive aspects of the mid-1990s, was that as the economy recovered, the Government at that time invested significant funds in re-integrating long-term unemployed people who had no hope of a job and young people. Money and resources were put into training and support which allowed those people to find work. One of our concerns is that this treaty would possibly restrict the Government from investing even when the economy is on the upswing. In our view, these are the reasons the full implications of this treaty need to be explained to the Irish people.

We are also of the view that the European Union needs to come up with a social vision and plan rather than just being an economic and fiscal union. Unfortunately, the EU is perceived as focusing exclusively on economic matters. While the treaty will ensure that fiscal and economic matters will be enshrined in Irish constitutional law, commitments to date in the social field are merely subject to what amounts to gentlemen's agreements which in most cases, are more honoured in the breach than in the observance. This is not intended as a criticism of the European Union and its institutions but rather it is more a criticism of the member states who sign up to commitments but do not follow through on them.

The Lisbon agenda was launched with great fanfare in 2000. This agenda contained commitments on employment, education, poverty and the creation of more and better jobs in the European Union. Most of the commitments in the Lisbon agenda were never implemented, which is unfortunate. We had the follow up in terms of the Europe 2020 strategy but there are not many people in the country who are aware of that strategy. We believe the economic and the social are two sides of the one coin and in the long-term it is misguided for the European Union to focus exclusively on the economic; they cannot be taken separately.

We support the recent initiatives by the Government such as the Action Plan for Jobs 2012 and the Pathways to Work initiatives because they will help get people back to work but more needs to be done. We know there is no magic wand and that it will take time for those initiatives to bear fruit. We welcome the fact that in the last quarter of 2011 we had jobs growth for the first time since 2007. We are of the strong view, however, that given the high levels of youth unemployment we need a youth employment action plan backed up by resources to make it work.

Against that background we also welcome that last December the European Commission President, Mr. Barosso, called on member states to address youth unemployment and opened up the prospects of up to €30 billion in unallocated European funds. Last month, the European Commission dispatched an action team to Dublin, which one of my colleagues met. The prospects for Ireland in terms of unallocated funds are good and bad. We will spend most of our allocated Structural Funds and therefore there is not a pot of money we can access but the Commission has said clearly that youth unemployment is one of the greatest social ills in Europe and there is now an opportunity for the Irish Government to engage with it to try to find some mechanism to find funding to address that issue. It might be an issue for this committee to engage with both the Commission and the relevant Departments to explore that possibility.

We also understand the argument that unless Ireland signs up to the fiscal compact we will not be able to access funds from the European Stability Mechanism, from which we may require additional funds. However, making the case for the treaty solely on these ground is short-sighted. One of the reasons we are in this mess is because of short-sightedness and taking decisions to get us past the next year's problem. For example, there was no debate in Ireland about joining the euro. The Government at the time made the decision, and most of us accepted that it seemed to be the right thing to do but, unfortunately, we now know that the flow of cheap credit and the loss of control over setting our own interest rates fuelled the bubble after the euro was adopted.

In 2010, the National Economic and Social Council produced a very good report entitled The Euro: An Irish Perspective, which examined Ireland's position on the euro. It is clear from that report that we should have put in place policy and political procedures to offset the impact of the introduction of the euro. Our view is that if we had a proper debate at the time we may still have joined the euro but we may have put in place some mechanisms or structures or passed some laws to ensure that the negatives or the downside would have been would been addressed. That is the reason it is also important that we do not talk about this fiscal treaty in the context of access to funds in a year or two years time but about its long-term impact. We believe it would be useful to ask a body like the National Economic and Social Council or other independent bodies to examine the long-term impact of the fiscal compact treaty.

The final concern relates to the serious issue of inserting this treaty into our Constitution. I will not try to second guess eminent legal advice on that but we are concerned that if this referendum is put to the people and the people accept it, it has the potential to tie the hands of any future Irish Government when it comes to spending and fiscal policy. Linked to that is the perception that this treaty is to meet the political needs of the current German Government. We would ask what will happen in five or ten years time when that issue is passed but we discover that these technical rules are unworkable and flawed in the real world. Other governments with parliamentary majorities will be able to repeal this treaty. However, the Irish people take the Irish Constitution very seriously and if we decide to insert these provisions into the Constitution, they may need some persuasion to remove them subsequently if we decide that they look well on paper and make sense in terms of an economic textbook but in the real world of politics and life they do not work. That is a concern. We do not have a view either way but we believe it is a consideration particularly for young people in the current economic environment.

I want to make a final plea regarding the day on which the referendum will be held. While ultimately it is a matter for the Government we would welcome if the committee would support our call for the referendum to be held on a Friday. This issue arises every time an election or referendum is held as many young people are not in a position to vote. It may not be such an issue if the referendum is held in June but if it is held in May many people will be sitting exams. Many people tell us that their vote is in Kildare, Tipperary, Kerry or Cavan and they are in college in Dublin or Cork and even if they were to try to get home, they may not get home in time. Therefore, if the referendum was held on a Friday with a 10 p.m. closing time for the poll that would facilitate many young people to vote, especially in Kildare.

I thank the Chairman, Senators, Deputies and MEPs for the opportunity to speak to them on the fiscal treaty and I am happy to take any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. James Doorley. I invite Ms Marie Sherlock from SIPTU to make her presentation.

Ms Marie Sherlock

I thank the Chairman and committee for the invitation to speak to them today. They asked us to discuss the implications of the fiscal compact treaty on the economic stability of Ireland. If we take a step back from it, most Irish voters in the upcoming referendum will face very much a Hobson's choice in choosing whether to accept or reject the treaty. Either way Ireland is likely to face into a long number of years of fiscal consolidation in order to reduce our debt to a sustainable level. The degree to which austerity will be imposed over the medium term will be determined less by the fiscal rules that will be on our Statue Book and probably more by how we will be financed over the short to medium term once the current bailout programme finishes in 2013. Ultimately, it seems that any decision to support or reject the treaty will hinge on the view taken of Ireland's funding prospects over the next three years and whether we can go it alone and return to the international capital markets or whether we need the reassurance of a backstop of access to the ESM to reassure investors we have some fall-back solution.

I am speaking in an individual capacity here today. SIPTU has yet to make a decision as to how it will encourage its members to vote. It is no secret that the union does not agree with the content of the treaty and its economic strategy. There is a view shared by many across the union movement that the treaty will exacerbate rather than improve the economic slowdown we are currently witnessing across the EU. SIPTU and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have yet to make a decision as to how they will encourage their members to vote.

We need to see an improvement in the rules that are there. During the past 12 months we have seen a significant stepping-up in the debate surrounding the desirability of fiscal rules. The Government has come out with its set of proposals for three new rules to be put into Irish legislation, namely, the public finances correction rule, the prudent budget and the sustainable expenditure rule. Last December the EU Council of Finance Ministers signed off on the so-called six-pack, which are measures designed to reinforce and strengthen the Stability and Growth Pact, and now we have the fiscal compact treaty.

The EU experience to date, both with the deficit and debt rule, has been very much a disaster, not least because of the enforcement issues but also because of huge failure to account for the different structural and sectoral compositions across various EU economies. In that context, I am very much of the view that the six-pack, although there are significant concerns about it, was a welcome innovation and an important development in terms of strengthening the Stability and Growth Pact to include the one-twentieth debt reduction rule and the early warning system in terms of looking at the macroeconomic imbalances.

Clearly, the fiscal compact treaty raises the bar significantly and very serious questions must be asked as to the economic rationale behind trying to bring about convergence towards zero deficit fiscal positions across EU member states. When I hear certain proponents talk about the need for the ratification of the fiscal treaty and that it will inspire confidence domestically and in international capital markets, often certain people omit to mention that we now have the six-pack measures in place. If they are allowed to operate, there is a view, which I share, that they could have a positive effect in better co-ordinating economic governance. The fiscal compact takes that to a new level, however.

For too long we have been critical of the EU leaders' snail's pace in terms of reform. We have had EU summit after EU summit at which there were many promises of action but very little impact. The sheer speed with which the fiscal compact was mooted and then signed off by the EU leaders within a six weeks to two months period, from December to February, was striking. That in itself tells a story about the political agenda at work at EU level. I am not commenting on the Irish position on this but at the EU level in terms of the French and the German political agenda.

The structural deficit is a poor choice of target. As Mr. Doorley stated, the committee has had people before it in recent weeks and I will not rehearse those arguments, but it is not a well-defined simple target to measure and is far from transparent. The interesting aspect is that it is far from consistent and if we consider the European Commission's index on the strength of fiscal rules, the structural deficit target fails that measure in terms of the margin of error associated with it. The stronger the rule, the less the margin of error will be associated with the rule.

There is some consistency in terms of the number of provisions we have seen in recent years in the structural deficit but major issues arise in terms of the differences in the way it has been calculated by the IMF, the ESRI, the Department of Finance and the EU. The structural deficit rule is not adequate. It would never have stopped the accumulation of the huge sectoral imbalances and the unsustainability of the property boom we saw here, and it would not have anticipated the collapse in the construction and property related tax revenues. It is interesting that Ireland breached the structural deficit rule only three times in the nine years between 2000 and 2008. That is significant in terms of the predictive capacity of that rule. There is very little flexibility associated with the rule in that, as other people stated, it leads to a long-term level of growth if we are to comply with the 0.5% structural deficit target. That is below what is sustainable, particularly for the Irish economy and for a number of other economies.

A major question arises as to the enforceability of the rule which I will elaborate on later with regard to some of the political developments we have seen this week at EU level.

In terms of the way it will be implemented and the economic impact in Ireland, in the short term acceptance of the fiscal compact treaty will be of little consequence to the public finances because we are already within the fiscal adjustment programme. The key aspect will be the publication of the Government's fiscal responsibility Bill which we expect to see in June. There has been a deferral of that. We expected it at the end of the first quarter this year but it has been pushed out to June. Only then will it become apparent which fiscal adjustment path future Governments will be bound by post-2015.

The other big development we will be looking to see is the clarification with regard to the timing. If we know whether the one-twentieth rule, the debt reduction rule, is to be applied, the Government has about three years, between 2015 and 2018, to get to a position where it is reducing by one-twentieth every year. If we examine the Department of Finance rules as currently structured and the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council's assessment of those rules, we are looking at the generation of primary surpluses of the order of 4% from about 2017 onwards. There are huge timing differences in that regard and that will determine the degree of fiscal austerity or consolidation that will happen post-2015.

Already, some progress has been made on the structural deficit, which was approximately 8.6% last year, but by 2015, and if the Irish Government manages to achieve the targets set out, the structural deficit will still be 3.7%. There is a long road to travel, therefore, to try to get to the 0.5% target.

In terms of the level of primary surpluses that have to be generated, we know that by 2014 the gap between current spending, excluding interest, and tax revenues will be effectively closed and that the vast majority of our general Government deficit will be attributable to the debt servicing payments, the interest Ireland must pay on its debt, and the paying down of its debt. The big question is how high those primary surpluses will need to be over future years, depending on the rule that is applied. Looking at the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council's calculations, even if it applies the rule the Department of Finance is talking about, it will exceed the one-twentieth rule but it still will not get anywhere near the 0.5% structural target over the next number of years post-2015, which in some ways calls into account whether Ireland is facing a near impossible task given the scale of the debt we are currently facing in terms of trying to write down that debt and achieving that 0.5% target over the medium term.

All of that points to enforceability not only for Ireland, but at a wider EU level. The experience of Spain in recent days provides some mildly tentative evidence that there might be some political flexibility. However, if we consider the experience of Belgium in the first few weeks of the new year, there was a significant disagreement between the European Commission and the Belgium Government on the growth forecast there and the success or otherwise of their budget in terms of raising a certain share of tax revenues. Belgium was asked to find at least €1 billion in savings over a very short period of time. While we might have some confidence that there might be some political flexibility, I do not believe we can depend on anything in that regard.

For Ireland, I have said that in the short term we will not see any immediate effect but, ultimately, over the longer term Ireland will be hit not once but twice by the balance budget rule. The more immediate negative spill-over effect will be in terms of reduced intra-EU import demand. This year, 20 out of the 27 EU member states are in breach of the excessive deficit procedure. If we apply the structural deficit rule that rises to 25 countries out of the 27. Germany, the Netherlands and Austria are included in that range of countries and they account for approximately 27% of EU GDP. A synchronised fiscal contraction across the European Union, therefore, can only have the effect of depressing domestic demand in those countries and export demand here, with significant implications for living standards and for Irish exporters.

To put that in context in terms of the Irish dependence on intra-EU trade, Professor Boyle spoke in terms of the food and agricultural exports but if we take all goods exports, Ireland depends on intra-EU trade for about 58% of its goods exports. Ireland's dependence on the EU is probably lower compared to other EU countries but, nonetheless, to have three out of every five euros of our goods exports going to the EU is significant. Irish services exporters will fare even worse because about 61.3% of Irish services exports go to the EU. That is telling in terms of the impact of a synchronised fiscal contraction and its potential impact for Ireland.

Ultimately, the crucial factor, and there is a growing view in terms of determining a "Yes" or "No" vote, will be whether Ireland will need a second bailout and whether we will need to access the European Stability Mechanism. Current programme funding for Ireland will dry up in 2013 to 2014 presenting the first major real test for Ireland. At this point, the immediate priorities for the Irish Government are to comply with the targets if and where possible and to minimise the price Ireland must pay for future funding. This is the lens through which I am viewing the vote on the fiscal compact treaty.

On the question of whether we will need a second bailout, Irish bond yields enjoyed a small positive rally at the start of this year but they remain at or around 7%. This is cold comfort to the Irish Government in terms of going to the international capital markets to borrow at current rates, remembering that we entered the bailout with bond yields at or around 6%. It is important to remember this. While there were some successes earlier in the year with the NTMA exchanging €3.5 billion in bonds, reports seemed to suggest that the vast majority of this was taken up by Irish banks. Irish banks were able to benefit from the first round of the long-term re-financing operations that the ECB launched this December. There were two rounds of the LTRO, as it is called. Whether there will be future rounds is open to question in terms of the liquidity that will be available to the Irish banks allowing for engagement in future bond swaps and purchases.

As stated, Ireland's return to the bond markets will ultimately depend on its growth and its capacity to stabilise its debt over time. We have already seen that the European Union is likely to slip back into recession in 2012. The economies in Italy and Spain are likely to contract and those of France, Germany and the United Kingdom are likely to remain just above water. A 1% decline in global output has almost a unitary impact - a 0.9% impact - on Irish GDP. For every 1% fall at a global level, there is a 1% reduction in Irish GDP. This is very significant and reflects just how open Ireland's small economy is.

While it is too early to forecast whether Ireland will need as second bailout, we are told a "No" vote will preclude access according to the terms of the treaty. The signal of any lack of a backstop could present difficulties for Ireland on re-entering the capital markets if we take what is on offer at the moment, 7%, in respect of bond yields. I am not so sure that Ireland has alternatives and that the European Union will later soften its stance to allow Ireland a second bailout even if it has accepted the treaty. The brinkmanship that was practised in early February with regard to Greece was very telling in that regard. The rules associated with the fiscal compact are deeply unpalatable and the manner in which they will be implemented over the medium term is very much open to question. Ultimately, the more immediate concern is associated with our access to a source of funding.

I said during the presentation that somebody was playing Pac-Man in the Gallery. If one needs to send a text message, one should at least put one's telephone on silent so it will not interrupt the flow of information from our guests. I call Dr. Seán Healy from Social Justice Ireland.

Dr. Seán Healy

We welcome the opportunity to address the committee on this issue. The fiscal compact is very relevant to Social Justice Ireland's core objective of building a just society in which human rights are respected, human dignity is protected, human development is promoted and the environment is respected and protected. The compact is likely to have major implications for those who are worst off in society. Therefore, it has implications for the development of a just society in Ireland.

The members asked us to spell out our views on the treaty and its implications for Ireland. We have done so. We circulated a briefing document to the members some days ago and I trust everybody has it. I do not intend to read it all out, members will be glad to know. I will refer to its key points, however. I take it that the briefing document will be on the record or available as part thereof. This is important because I will be skipping through parts of it.

In my presentation, I want to focus on a few key questions that we believe are critical. Within the context of asking why the fiscal compact has been developed in the first place, three points arise. It is meant to ensure that there will be no repetition of the crisis that hit us in 2008 and which still continues. Second, it is supposed to play a key role in this strategy to save the euro. Both of these objectives are supposed to be achieved by putting in place a much more stringent approach to budgetary policy across eurozone countries.

I want to address each of the three points but I will begin with the third. Should there be budget oversight and monitoring? Budget oversight and monitoring are phenomena that Social Justice Ireland would warmly welcome. We have for some time called for greater monitoring of budget policy. Members of the committee will be well aware of this. We have on many occasions raised questions about various Governments reducing the information made available on budget day and in the following days to people analysing the budget. There has been a consistent reduction in the provision of key information. This makes it very difficult to analyse and critique budgets, which is not positive. I would be very happy to see this trend reversed.

We have pointed out on a number of occasions that there are very serious questions to be asked about forecasts published by the Government on budget day. We have analysed these, pointed them out and raised questions only to get absolutely nowhere in terms of receiving any kind of coherent response to explain why the numbers do not add up or why the forecasts are as they are. There is, therefore, a need for enhanced national and international monitoring. Nationally, this should be done by giving a greater role to the Oireachtas, including its committees, in debating and considering budget proposals. Ideally, that should be done in the weeks before the budget, not when it has been published.

The international objective could be achieved via a sophisticated European monitoring mechanism that externally assesses the stability and sustainability of budgetary and fiscal policies. This would have to be based on objective evidence, not on political ideologies that are fashionable at any given moment. It would have to be open to challenge and adjustment, again based on evidence. Such oversight and monitoring would be very positive if it were properly structured. However, there are conditions. It would be absolutely useless and counter-productive if it were to serve political ideologies that are fashionable at any given moment. The process should be evidence-based and challengeable on the basis of further evidence. There ought to be arenas in which the dialogue can take place.

Let me address the two purposes for which the fiscal compact was put in place. Will the compact prevent a repetition of the 2008 crisis? We claim it will not. Let me explain why. Much of the analysis underpinning the fiscal compact is actually flawed because it understands the crisis to have been caused by governments overspending and running up huge debts. The compact is supposed to stop this from happening. Actually, this is not what happened; Ireland did not run up huge debts and was actually lowering its debts. The real cause of the crisis was much deeper. In order to increase profitability, the financial world began, a decade or more prior to the crash, to invest surplus funds in financial products and property.

I see some members shaking their heads violently. All I ask is that my position be considered. I will be quite happy to engage with any reaction subsequently. I am making a quite short presentation and I will be quite happy to spend a long time outlining the details on which my comments are based.

The financial world created financial products that went on sale among financial institutions. They sold financial products to one another as a mechanism to increase their turnover and profitability. As we found out over time, these were based on extraordinarily false footings. Many of the products had little or no base and what they were being sold on did not stand up. In 2007, that world began to unravel. Eventually, that whole world encompassing Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Bear Stearns, AIG and so on fell apart. In the eurozone, the crisis was exacerbated by the fact that the euro itself is an incomplete currency union. This point already has been mentioned in earlier presentations and I will not deal with it here. However, we wound up with a crisis that was generated from those kinds of backgrounds at a much higher and much broader level than in Ireland alone.

When the crisis finally arrived, countries such as Ireland were pressurised by some international institutions to socialise their debt, that is, to agree their governments would take responsibility for paying off all the debts accumulated by private banks. Poor and vulnerable people, as well as ordinary taxpayers, would therefore be obliged to take on board debts that originally had been incurred by the gambling of banks and financial institutions in Germany, France and many other places across the European Union, as well as far beyond. Consequently, for Social Justice Ireland, there is something profoundly unjust, unfair and immoral about an approach whereby Ireland's poor and vulnerable people will take the hit and will pay back the gambling debts for money that was gambled and lost. This is a treaty that is built and developed on a false analysis. It is analysis that is not accurate and is deeply flawed and, as a result, it will not work.

Members should ask themselves a question. Would the fiscal compact have prevented Ireland from doing what it did in the decade before 2008? The answer is "No". The Government was doing excellently on reducing its debts, balancing its budget and-----

That is not a fact.

Please let Dr. Healy finish.

Members should allow the man to make his presentation. If I do not agree with a presentation, I do not shake my head at the person delivering it.

Exactly. Let us allow Dr. Healy finish, after which we all can ask questions.

The Deputy will get his chance.

Dr. Seán Healy

Allow me to ask the question again. Would the crisis of 2008 have been prevented in Ireland, had the fiscal compact been in place? First, would Ireland have met all three of the conditions? For many of the years in question, Ireland had a budget in surplus. During all those years, Ireland was reducing its debt and on the structural question, as Ms Marie Sherlock already has pointed out, Ireland was below the required limit in most years. Consequently, the answer is "No", the fiscal compact would not have prevented the Government from doing that. Moreover, it would not have prevented banks from doing what they did either. Therefore, it seems quite clear to me and the evidence is absolutely incontrovertible, this compact would not have prevented the crisis of 2008. While one could continue arguing, in my briefing to members, I have provided much more detail on outlining what actually happened in Ireland and what mistakes were made. Huge mistakes were made in the decade up to 2008. I do not deny this at all and have listed them out in the briefing document, if members wish to examine them, as I do not propose to go through them here. The consequences of those mistakes also are spelt out in the aforementioned briefing document. It is not that I deny that huge mistakes were made. I simply ask a question as to whether this compact would have prevented those mistakes from happening and the answer is "No", it would not.

Many changes are needed to resolve the causes of the crisis into which we ran, two of which are important. For example, I refer to addressing the problems created by different countries being at different points in the economic cycle at any given time. Mr. James Doorley has outlined some comments on this issue previously, with which Social Justice Ireland agrees, because Ireland was thriving when Germany and France were doing very poorly and were very sluggish. Interest rates were kept down in the interests of the latter but this led to the provision of extremely cheap capital here and was in fact pouring petrol on a fire. Had Ireland control over its own currency at the time, it would have been ratcheting up the interest rate to reduce borrowing levels. The first issue, therefore, pertains to addressing the problems created by different countries being at different points in the economic cycle at any one time. However, this cause of the crisis of 2008 is not being addressed in the fiscal compact.

The second issue is whether the fiscal compact addresses the moral hazard that protects banks. As for what I mean, moral hazard is a situation in which an individual or institution is insulated from risk, while others pay the negative consequences of that risk. People can put down money but no matter what happens, they are sure to get their money back. That is the position regarding moral hazard in which the banks find themselves. They can put down money and if they lose the money, they still have a guarantee they will get it back. It is a bit like if one goes down to Paddy Power and puts down a rake of bets on various races at the Cheltenham meeting later today. One loses them all and therefore goes back down to Paddy Power to ask for one's money back, plus the odds and the interest. Members should see how far they would get if they tried that. The issue here is that banks are in a serious position of moral hazard but that issue has not been addressed by the fiscal compact. We could still wind up in precisely the same position if we had a repetition of what happened in 2008.

I will move on to the other reason the compact was put in place. The basic assertion is that it would play a key role in saving the euro and one should ask whether that would be true. One must acknowledge the euro is a flawed and incomplete currency union. It remains vulnerable to destabilising financial flows, regional credit bubbles and sovereign defaults. Given the unwillingness to re-engineer the eurozone as a proper monetary union, these problems still continue and persist. The reasons for the weaknesses that could spark a renewed crisis some time in the future have not been addressed in the fiscal compact and the pretence is maintained that Europe's problems derive entirely from budget excesses. Greece is the only example where this actually is true and therefore, a fiscal compact that will deal with this particular issue will deal with Greece but not with the other 26 countries.

What will be the impact of the fiscal compact on Ireland's budget process? There are four key issues in this regard and they pertain to the various rules. First, on the budget balance, the point to note is that the Irish Government had chosen to close the budget gap long before the bailout agreement with the troika was signed. Ireland needed budgetary correction, had acted accordingly and continues to act accordingly. Even if Ireland had avoided a bailout, it still would have been obliged to make dramatic budget adjustments to deal with the problems that arose in 2008 and this could not have been avoided. The scale of debt taken on board by the Government, however, following on the budget guarantee is adding dramatically to the austerity Ireland is experiencing at present.

As for the second point on reducing the national debt to 60% of GDP, the target as set out in the fiscal compact has been in place since 1992. This is not a new target as it comprises part of the Stability and Growth Pact. Most countries in the European Union have debt levels above the limit set in the fiscal compact. In fact, the countries that first broke it were Germany in 1996, followed by France subsequently. In Ireland, it would be of great help to most people were the Government to present its debt figures and its annual budget expenditure figures in a manner that showed clearly and honestly how much of the national debt and how much of the Government's annual expenditure is accounted for by the costs flowing from the rescue of banks and financial institutions. This is a critical issue and the joint committee should urge strongly the Government to adopt this measure. The Government should produce its numbers in the budget and its annual accounts and so on, as it does at present. However, it should then split out the impact of the actual borrowing to cover banks and the rescue thereof. This would enable Irish people to see what it is we are recovering from because we got our entire budgetary strategy wrong and built it all on a housing bubble up to 2008. However, they also would be able to see the other part, namely, the component that comes from resolving or bailing out the banks.

On the third issue of keeping the structural deficit below 0.5% of GDP, the most charitable thing I can say about this proposal is there is a great deal of argument about how to calculate such a number. Very few economists agree on how this should be done and almost none asserts that this particular provision makes real sense. It is extremely difficult to calculate and the data are not available for quite a long time. As Ms Marie Sherlock already has pointed out, they are constantly revised years later. The most obvious example is that the numbers on taxation are constantly revised and the final figures are not provided for several years by the Revenue Commissioners. There are serious issues involved. Not alone that, if I might cite evidence in favour of my position, I have provided several references from documents published in the past eight months by the Department of Finance in my briefing. Members may pay attention to them in that context. The Department claims that it warrants caution in the interpretation of the figures for the structural deficit. The stability programme update, published in 2011 by the Government soon after it came into office, concludes the result on the structural deficit cannot be viewed as plausible. There are serious questions, even at the heart of the Government's own core public service, about the viability of that particular target and, regardless of imposing it, whether it actually makes sense when one cannot measure it. It seems strange that a target of this nature is included in a fiscal compact together with actionable consequences when it appears the target cannot be measured. There is also an issue about the timely availability of statistics in the fiscal compact. It is not acceptable that a budget should have to be developed on the basis of targets produced on incomplete data.

The fiscal compact will have serious implications for Ireland's economic policy in the years ahead, implications that fly in the face of decades of good practice and good outcomes across the developed world. If the fiscal compact is implemented, it will be impossible for a member state to follow the approach advocated by John Maynard Keynes, an approach that has served Europe, the United States and other OECD countries well for almost 80 years. Is this wise?

There is ample evidence to suggest Keynes got it right in 1937 - the date should be noted - when he argued, "The boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity in the Treasury." He believed governments should operate counter-cyclical policies, running deficits to boost flagging economies while cutting spending to cool overheating ones. Many countries have benefited from this approach since the 1930s.

We are in the middle of the worst economic crisis since 1929. How the United States dealt with that crisis is a good example. It introduced austerity measures in 1929 resulting in the economy getting worse and unemployment growing. In 1933 Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected President and followed the Keynes approach by pumping significant amounts of money into various state initiatives such as the Tennessee Valley Authority. As a result, the economy recovered and employment increased. In January 1937, when he took office the second time, he decided to listen to those who argued the budget must be balanced and cut back. Austerity was introduced again after 1937 but when one examines the figures one sees the economy falling apart, the numbers of employed falling and serious chaos until the United States entered the Second World War. Overnight, expenditure was not an issue, there was significant expenditure and there were no serious economic problems subsequently.

I hope a war is not a proposal.

Dr. Seán Healy

There are alternatives to war. The Government should start spending money on essentials which I have spelled out already. Ireland is facing a level of austerity that runs against the lessons of history.

The general principle of enhanced oversight is a good one and we need more of it, domestically and internationally. The execution of that principle is a problem, however, in the fiscal compact because it proposes an impossible to measure and too-restrictive approach which has the ability to undermine the role of government to respond to economic shocks. The fiscal compact is unlikely to achieve either of the two outcomes for which it was created, namely, ensuring no repetition of the crisis that hit us in 2008 and playing a key role in the strategy to save the euro.

On the other hand, two of the targets - reducing government debt and balancing the budget - are desirable outcomes. Its third objective on the structural deficit is based on a concept the understanding of which is seriously contested. Member states which do not sign the fiscal compact will not have access to the European Stability Mechanism, ESM. Without major adjustment to Ireland's debt through action to reduce the impact of the Anglo Irish promissory notes, for example, Ireland may well need access to substantial funding after 2013. The fiscal compact would lock the European Union into one specific approach to economic development, an approach that cannot guarantee a positive outcome.

The best recommendation is to redesign the fiscal compact. However, the situation seems to be beyond that at this stage which is a major problem.

Mr. Doorley stated he deals with other youth organisations across Europe. Has the National Youth Council of Ireland had discussions on youth unemployment with other youth organisations, particularly in places like Spain which are also suffering significantly because of this problem? If so, have they discussed how they might make joint representations to the European Union action teams on youth unemployment?

Dr. Healy said our economic crisis was created by the housing bubble. Does he believe the macroeconomic indicators - the green and red lights - contained in the fiscal compact would have set off alarm bells regarding house price inflation here, resulting in the Commission intervening and, subsequently, preventing our crisis?

I thank the delegations for their presentations. Professor Boyle's presentation was excellent and well-presented and I found it fascinating and of extraordinary relevance to what we are doing. I was interested when he said that of every €100 million in exports from the agricultural and food sector, €50 million accounts for gross national product, GNP, in contrast to €20 million in the case of pharmaceuticals and information communications technology. That is a fascinating figure which has not really entered the public consciousness. Will he elaborate a little more on this?

Professor Boyle said we need more macroeconomic stability, a condition which the agricultural sector needs in order to prosper. I agree with him also that significant investment will be needed to ensure the targets of the Food Harvest 2020 strategy are achieved. Will he suggest from where this investment may come? To what degree does he see direct State investment through grant aid and stimuli of various sorts being a requirement? Is this achievable within the fiscal compact treaty? I was interested in his comment on credit flow and I seek elaboration. Credit flow is a major issue for farmers and others. Professor Boyle made an almost throwaway remark about flexibility in the land market, on which I seek elaboration.

Mr. Doorley spoke about youth emigration. I would have thought that we would achieve youth employment through the set of conditions outlined by the first speaker regarding getting the 2020 objectives and by getting investment into the economy in other sectors.

At the outset Ms Sherlock said the ESM provided a backstop position regarding the risk of a second bailout. She never quite said whether she thought a second bailout would be required. Is it not also a backstop to potential borrowing? If we go to borrow in the open markets as members of the ESM, it will improve our borrowing potential because they will know we have a backstop or a fallback position. Does Ms Sherlock believe that a jobs stimulus programme and investment in infrastructure such as water programmes etc. to create jobs are incompatible with the terms of the compact treaty? I do not believe so and I doubt she would. However, I would like that clarified because people observing this might like to know that.

When Dr. Healy refers to good budgetary practices in the past, surely our budgetary and tax collection methods were predicated on a complete bubble in the property market and an artificial boom which were hardly good practice. Is it not the case that Keynesianism cannot work in contemporary Europe because of the nature of our demographic? As we have a growing older dependent population who will need many of the social services and considerable support, Europe does not have the potential to apply a Keynesian solution in the future. Is that not the contemporary analysis accepted by most people?

I also welcome our four speakers. I agree with Professor Boyle that the European Union has been extremely positive for Ireland in terms of markets, inflation, the euro, interest rates etc. Is he worried about or does he understand the rationale of many rural people or farmers voting against Europe irrespective of the issue? Is it a concern that they might be cutting off their nose despite their face? They may vote on the basis of septic tanks, bogs etc. which are related to Europe but not related to this treaty. Will Teagasc take a stand or is it allowed to take a stand on this? As it is in receipt of State funds I presume it cannot. Is there any role whereby individual members can comment freely to express an opinion either for or against?

Mr. Doorley mentioned more and deeper cuts, long-term implications etc. and Ms Sherlock mentioned austerity. Is there not an acceptance that while no one wants austerity or is positive about it, without the plan there is no future for young people or anybody else? There was mention of the bailout and the EU-IMF deal. However, there were no real comments on the gap between the finances coming in and what is going out. We know why we need to bridge the gap, but is there an acceptance by the National Youth Council of Ireland or anybody else that that gap exists and that without trying to rectify that by whatever means, there is no future for the country?

The causes Dr. Seán Healy outlines on page 4 are interesting and I agree with many of them. Does he not agree that putting rules in place will mean future governments will need to be more cognisant of and cautious about overspending and expanding our public services, as we have done in the past on the basis of a bubble, without being clear that based on the growth projections we will be able to sustain the levels we have employed five or ten years later?

I welcome the witnesses. In her presentation Ms Sherlock said the lens through which she will judge the treaty will be the ESM and access to funding. While it is an economic treaty, it will impinge negatively on civil society. No article in the treaty can be thought of as bringing any benefit to social justice, the environment, women's rights, children's rights, young people or any progressive sector of society. While it is an economic treaty, some contributors to this committee, including Professor Karl Whelan, have said even the economics of it are pretty terrible. On what criteria will the various organisations present judge this treaty and come up with a position as to how people should vote.

Mr. Doorley spoke about youth unemployment which is a particular problem for Ireland and Spain. With high levels of emigration from Ireland the figures have been masked. Can young people who are emigrating take any hope from this treaty especially when one considers what Ireland will be like in the coming decade? Can young people in Spain take any hope from it and should they welcome it? Do the witnesses believe the treaty will effectively tie the hands of future governments in the formulation of policy for years to come? Given that the current generation of young people is experiencing such great levels of unemployment and emigration, will we see more of the same policies? Will the treaty exacerbate that given that there will be further austerity and cutbacks into the future?

In talking about youth unemployment, the action team and where the opportunities to tackle youth unemployment lie, Mr. Doorley mentioned that Ireland obviously will not have access to those structural funds and other member states will because we have spent ours. How do we move beyond the engagement and rhetoric on dealing with youth unemployment when this compact could, and probably will, have the effect of making youth unemployment worse for years to come? How does Dr. Healy believe the treaty will affect those in or at risk of poverty here and across Europe?

I welcome Dr. Healy, Ms Sherlock, Mr. Doorley and Professor Boyle, all of whom have put forward different aspects of the fiscal treaty. I hope their very worthwhile contributions will get widespread coverage. I formally propose to the stenographers and staff here that Dr. Healy's full submission be put on the record of the House because it is important that it be read in conjunction with his abridged version of events. The Chairman might be able to agree to that. Perhaps we could confirm that would be the case through the secretariat. Is it the case that we can have the full documentation that Dr. Healy has submitted included because it has to be read as a whole? It is a very well thought out document on how we came to be in this position. Of course I also recall Dr. Healy's contribution in Inchydoney, when we became very socialist after his wonderful contribution in that beautiful setting in County Cork.

The Senator is hardly going to make Dr. Healy responsible for Fianna Fáil bringing us down the worst road in our history.

Absolutely not. We actually put aside €25 billion in the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

Is the Senator suggesting that Dr. Healy made them spend it?

No. In its 2007 general election manifesto, Fine Gael proposed to spend it.

That was misunderstood.

So be it. A decision will be made on when to hold the referendum. People are concerned that we are paying back debts accumulated by irresponsible banking, and irresponsible borrowing and developing at that time, even though they may have all had good intentions. Dr. Healy assessed it very well in the overall scheme of things. As the saying is, we are in the situation where we are. On page 10 Dr. Healy outlined what happened during the Second World War. The document states, "There are alternatives to austerity: Government could start spending money. It could spend on essential economic and social infrastructure such as schools, bridges, public transport, telecommunications". This is a very good point. We should identify where we can have a return for spending.

Approximately 65,000 qualified and trained builders are leaving our shores even though enormous demand could exist here if the problem could be tackled. I refer specifically to the ghost estate phenomenon. These have been left unattended and will fall if not worked on. We also have a very large demand for housing. Perhaps the houses are in the wrong locations and we must accept this is a problem, but in certain areas the housing list is quite large and properties could be available if they were upgraded. This matter was mentioned in the contribution by Social Justice Ireland and perhaps it can be elaborated on.

SIPTU, of which I am a member, has significant responsibility as if it decides to recommend a "No" vote to its membership the treaty will be in great difficulty. It has a responsibility to make the right decision.

I am told copies of the presentation were circulated to all members and would have been received with notification of the meeting.

I appreciate that.

We will ensure all of these documents are put on the website so they will be available to be viewed by anybody including members of the public.

I would do it slightly differently. I have received all of the documentation and what I propose is that it is included as part of Dr. Healy's contribution. It can be done by our stenographers. It is like a report which can be taken as read as part of the evidence submitted by Dr. Healy.

Taken as read.

If the members have no problem with this we will ask for it to be the case.

I thank the Chairman.

I welcome the witnesses. I apologise for missing some of the presentations due to Seanad business. I apologise in particular to Professor Boyle who contributed an important presentation on the importance of the treaty to the agri-food sector. Mr. Doorley is representing the National Youth Council of Ireland. Ms Sherlock is a member of SIPTU but is here in a personal capacity.

Ms Marie Sherlock

I work for SIPTU but I had to be clear about the fact that SIPTU has yet to make formal its position so I am speaking in an individual capacity. I am speaking as SIPTU's economist.

I have a small concern about this given that other people have not been afforded the same opportunity to speak in an individual capacity.

To be fair, many speakers have come before the committee in an individual capacity. For months we have said to all members that if they have names of individuals whom they would like to see come before the committee we will invite them.

Ms Sherlock is being admirable in her presentation.

My question is with regard to young people and is for Mr. Doorley and Ms Sherlock. I have been an educator and I have a teenager and a primary school child. I am disappointed with the tone being conveyed, which is close to scaremongering. I ask Mr. Doorley how will the treaty prevent Ireland from investing in jobs. How can this be? The Government's stated policy is pro-jobs and this is agreed and supported by the troika. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation was the only Department which did not have to take cuts in the budget.

Investor confidence in this country is critical and every witness spoke about how important it is for us to have access to ESM funds. If this country does not have investor confidence it will hurt our youth. We are a small island on the west coast of Europe. We are not self-sufficient. We rely on our allies and friends in Europe, the United States and the BRIC countries with which we are trying to develop relationships. Alliances are critical. I will put this question to everyone who thinks a "No" vote is wise: Do they agree there is little point-----

Is that the Senator's telephone?

I do not believe so. Do they agree there is little point in us advocating a "No" vote given that only 12 out of 17 countries must ratify the treaty? Do they think it would be good for Ireland to be left behind and not have access to ESM funds for any reason? Dr. Healy referred to an economic shock which might come down the line in future. Anyone can answer these questions but they are addressed in particular to Ms Sherlock and Mr. Doorley.

I have great admiration for much of Dr. Healy's work but I disagree with him here.

Four minutes remain and I ask the Senator to conclude.

To be fair it is my turn to ask a question. Dr. Healy mentioned he did not think the pact being in place would have prevented the crisis of 2008. The pact does not claim to be the total answer and this is very important. What about the debt brake measure in the treaty? Surely if we had had such a measure it would have made a massive difference to us. The Government policy which fuelled our deficit and provided the banks with tax breaks for property which encourage lending would not have happened if we had had that regulation

Do you hear that Senator Leyden?

The one good thing about the compact is that it will enforce regulation in the absence of a responsible government, and we had an irresponsible government. I am in favour of stability and that is what the treaty advocates. With stability the economy can thrive and investor confidence will return. I would like to hear the witnesses' responses to this. Let us be reasonable and stop scaremongering. If 12 out of 17 countries ratify this they will carry on without us.

I find it incredible that we invite witnesses to come before the committee to give fact-based presentations on how they see the treaty and they are accused of scaremongering by a committee member. I disagreed with some elements of Professor Boyle's presentation but I will not accuse him of scaremongering. He gave a fact-based presentation on how he sees it. It is unfortunate to use such terminology.

Professor Boyle's presentation was very good on the potential of the agri-food sector. It was good for us to get a sense of that. I am a rural Deputy and I see the potential of Irish food to play a role in the growth of the economy. I agreed with what Professor Boyle said on this and it was worthwhile to hear it. However, this treaty is not a European Union treaty, it is an intergovernmental treaty. If the Irish people, as is their right, reject this treaty they will still be members of the eurozone and the European Union. If they wish, 12 countries may ratify this agreement and proceed. Our future in the eurozone is not at stake. It is about whether we accept this is a sensible way to proceed in terms of how we grow our economy out of the crisis.

With regard to growth and jobs, Professor Boyle outlined that 44% of our exports go to the UK and 34% go to continental Europe. Therefore the European Union as a whole plays a very important role in our core market. Would it not be equally as important to state we need growth in this market and a real strategy to restore growth? Surely that would be as important as any other issue.

In all the presentations, there has not been much enthusiasm from economists, academics and representatives of civil society for the treaty. Nobody has argued that it is the solution to the economic crisis.

It is part of the solution.

It seems the strongest argument, which is heavily emphasised by Ministers, is that if we do not vote "Yes" to the treaty, we will not be able to access the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, funding when it is put in place. What the Ministers have not stated is that the mechanism will come into place with the amendment of Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, TFEU. In the very near future the Irish Government will introduce legislation facilitating this change. If the Irish Government is concerned that the only issue encouraging people to vote for the fiscal compact is that we would not be able to access the ESM, why does it not use this veto? The Government does not have to put through that legislation in the next couple of weeks and it has a choice. It can stop this gun being pointed at the head of the Irish people.

What is the opinion of the witnesses in this regard? My party has clear legal advice on it and the Government will not contest it. The ESM will be put in place through amendment of an existing article of the TFEU. It is not part of the Lisbon treaty or other existing treaties, which do not permit bailouts per se. In order to bring in this element, the legislation - in the form of a European Communities (amendment) Bill - must be introduced. The Taoiseach has confirmed that will happen in this session. The Government would have a veto on the issue but would it be prudent to exercise it? The only argument made to accept this treaty by most people coming in here is that we would not be able to access the ESM. Why would the Government put through that legislation and allow our people to be pinned down?

There is also the issue of Keynesianism. There are different perspectives in economics but eminent Nobel Prize-winning economists such as Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz do not agree that there is capacity to implement Keynesian economic policies in Europe at this time. It is critical for us to reverse the cycle in Europe, start to give hope and stimulate the economy. One vehicle is the European Investment Bank, and SIPTU has pointed out we could use our resources, such as the National Pensions Reserve Fund or other pensions, to drive our economy across Europe.

Every representative here has a political perspective which is pre-determined. Unfortunately, although the presentations are based in fact, the witnesses will not swing opinions. I thought Dr. Healy's presentation was superb and I would challenge any economist to disagree with the facts he presented today on the cause of this crisis internationally and in Europe, and how this is a solution to a crisis we have not had. Our crisis did not come from a failure to balance budgets but came from a fundamental failure of the European monetary union structures and the lack of regulation in the banking sector.

I listened to Senator Healy Eames's comments about this treaty putting regulation in place. It does not and there is not a word about regulation in the treaty. I do not understand the point that it would aid in regulation.

The point is that regulation did not happen.

There is nothing about regulation of the banking and financial sectors in this treaty.

The point has been made.

The environment is being created to be mindful of the need for regulation.

That is the conclusion of questions and I thank all the contributors for keeping the questions concise. There is a limited amount of time left and I will ask each of our guests to limit their responses to five minutes. It may be that they cannot pick up all the questions but perhaps they can address the questions which they find most relevant.

Professor Gerry Boyle

Deputy O'Reilly raised a number of questions, with the first being the basis to the statement I made that €100 million of agriculture exports generates a much higher impact on GNP than modern sectors. This was published approximately three or four years ago in a report commissioned by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. This arises from the low import content of agricultural exports and it is not profit repatriation. I take the point that the Deputy makes that the fact is not widely appreciated and probably has not got the recognition it merits.

Deputy O'Reilly also asked about the probable location of investment in the agrifood industry as it expands. I should be very careful not to select particular parts of the country that may be likely to experience expansion. In all the major milk growing sectors or regions we would expect significant expansion but there may be greater concentration. That will depend on economics.

State aid is not possible and the advancement in investments must come from the profit base and borrowing. Nevertheless, measures may be possible under the Common Agricultural Policy. Deputy O'Reilly rightly addressed the issue of credit access and the agri-food sector is no different in that regard. As other speakers have said, I accept that the fiscal compact treaty in itself will not address this issue. Our experience is that not all but some banks are adopting a very sensible evidence-based approach when assessing prospects, and we are strongly supporting that. There is a need for banking expertise to be upscaled considerably with regard to the knowledge of the agrifood sector in order to provide a solid evidence base for decisions about loans.

I agree with Deputy O'Reilly on the flexibility issue with regard to the landmarket. We will have to see if the fiscal measures introduced by the Minister in the recent budget will have a positive impact on land transfer, and I believe they will. Equally, there is a major mindset issue to be addressed because of the strong attachment to land. Educated younger farmers in particular are adopting a very different attitude to the older generation.

Deputy Kyne asked the very difficult question of whether farmers will conflate other issues affecting rural welfare with the fiscal treaty. I live in a very small rural community and understand perfectly the concern he raises about the matter. However, I believe from anecdotal evidence this time around that people are making a clear distinction between this treaty and other issues, and I am confident they will be able to make such a distinction.

I represent Teagasc this morning and I am the only public servant here, which limits any ability on my behalf to take a position. As far as the agrifood sector is concerned, we will endeavour to confine our remarks to our expertise. I should acknowledge that for many years I worked as an economist and I am interested in this debate because I published a book in 2000 on controlling public spending in times of plenty. I was interested to hear Ms Sherlock talk about the fiscal responsibility Act because I advocated such an Act in that book. It was based on the New Zealand model.

These are issues of judgment rather than issues of fact. I believe, from my reading of and reflection on these matters over a long time, that we can have all the rules we wish in regard to budgetary matters but unless the political process is engaged, they will not be useful. The technical rules are very possible but the engagement of the political process is the critical issue. I am also of the view, and it is borne out by research carried out some time ago, that rules govern behaviour. I have no doubt that the existence of the fiscal compact would influence the way national budgets are constructed. My difficulty would be, and again I must preface my remarks by saying the evidence basis is not there, is that it is difficult to look back and say something did not work. One must try to imagine what would happen in the future if a Minister for Finance is constructing a budget with the fiscal compact in existence.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn raised two important points in regard to what happens if we vote "No". My position is that it is a balance of risks. Having endorsed the point made previously by many speakers that this is only part of a solution, although an important building block, I believe there are risks on both sides. My personal view is that the risks are greater if we reject than if we accept. Again, however, it is a matter of opinion.

The difficulty is that we are being asked to sign a treaty into constitutional law, which is our primary law, without seeing the rest of the solution.

Professor Gerry Boyle

I cannot disagree with that.

Finally, with regard to internal EU demand, many speakers referred to the importance of internal demand being buoyant. That is as important for the agrifood sector as for any other. However, the key point in all of this is that if one is trading and investing in markets, the last thing one wants is instability. We all hope that whatever is determined will lead to greater stability than the reverse.

Before calling the next speaker, I want to say that we are working to a very tight timetable and will have to leave this room. I ask speakers to limit their responses to five minutes. In that way we can hear the views of the three remaining speakers. I do not wish to have a situation where I will have to cut off the final speaker.

Mr. James Doorley

I will try to respond to all the questions. There was a question about our engagement at European level on youth unemployment. We are members of the European Youth Forum and my colleagues are engaged all the time with similar youth organisations across Europe. The European Youth Forum is engaging with the European Commission. One of the challenges is that the European Commission has limited responsibility for employment. It has responsibility for certain aspects of employment law relating to equality but in terms of any major initiatives on employment, there is the principle of subsidiarity and the Commission is there to encourage and support member states in addressing the issue. We are very much engaged in it and trying to learn lessons. We are of the view that young people must take responsibility. The state is not in a position to address all the issues that affect young people. Obviously, however, the Commission and member state governments can do a great deal.

On the question from Deputy O'Reilly, I agree with him that if there is a sound and stable macroeconomic environment, it will of course lead to jobs. Nobody wants a scenario like that in Greece, where there has been a year or two of social and economic instability. This has led to extremely high levels of youth unemployment. The challenge for us as an organisation working with young people throughout the country is how long we must wait. I accept it is not possible for any government to say it will be next year or the year after, but the question is how long the pain must continue if one is unemployed or has been forced to emigrate. That is the imponderable.

We certainly accept Deputy O'Reilly's point, which was also made by Deputy Kyne, that there is a €15 billion or €16 billion gap between our income and our spending. However, that is very difficult to explain to a young person. We were talking to a group of young people a few weeks ago who told us their career guidance teachers are advising them to focus on jobs that are available in other parts of the world, in other words, what is required in Australia, America and the rest of Europe. Emigration had to be considered. That is a very realistic approach, but it is a little depressing as well.

In response to Senator Reilly, our key point is the lack of vision from the European institutions on the social issues around unemployment. In fairness, the Commission said the issue must be dealt with but it is not putting a great deal of money where its mouth is. We would like to see more development at European level and see the leaders come together and state they accept youth unemployment is a serious issue and that they will find funds in the Structural Funds - perhaps not in this round but in the next round - to give a really big bang approach to tackling the issue.

In response to Senator Healy Eames, the National Youth Council of Ireland does not have a position on the treaty and it might not take a position. As a representative body for more than 50 organisations, it is challenging for us to take positions. My position today was not to come and scaremonger, but to raise issues. I probably asked more questions on the fiscal treaty than I gave comments on it because our challenge is that young people who have a vote will vote on it, and our ultimate objective is to ensure they have all the facts and make an informed choice. The reason we came here today was to ask the questions.

With regard to the statement that the Government would not be able to invest in jobs, I did not say that. That must have been how it was heard. My only concern is that the scale of the problem is so great that we need to do more. If the global economy recovers in a year or two and suddenly there is an opportunity to get many unemployed people back into work, our concern is that the resources would not be there to help them. We are very realistic. We know there is no magic bullet. I am involved in the JobBridge initiative and I am very supportive of it because it gives young people the opportunity to gain work experience. However, it is limited to €20 million and we would like it to be a great deal more. That was the point I was making. I do not wish anybody to think we were scaremongering. We were raising questions.

On the final question Deputy Mac Lochlainn asked about the ESM, as a country we certainly need to be making decisions, and not just about getting over the next crisis tomorrow or next month or next year. It is important that the Government point out the implications regarding the ESM of voting "No" but we also need a longer term perspective. I talked about our adoption of the euro, which I very much supported on a personal basis, but I do not believe we went through all the ramifications at the time, and that had implications.

Ms Marie Sherlock

Deputy O'Reilly asked for my view on the ESM. I believe the immediate priority for the Government is to minimise the cost of the funding it will have to access after 2013, be it from the ESM, which might be the cheapest source of funding for Ireland, or the international capital markets. By supporting the treaty we will keep the door open to accessing the ESM. Even if we never access the ESM, it is important to be able to signal to the markets that this back-up or alternative is available.

With regard to the compatibility of the fiscal compact with a growth strategy, I do not believe it is incompatible, but there are certain concerns about the flexibility that is afforded to the public finances. That is something for much further down the line as opposed to now because we are in an adjustment programme anyway. That scope for a stimulus is much more limited than might be otherwise the case.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn spoke about the unions putting forward proposals on trying to put in place a growth strategy for Ireland. Ireland might technically be out of recession but that is meaningless given that domestic demand is facing the fifth consecutive year of recession and is very much in a slump. The all-important priority is a growth strategy.

I reassure Deputy Kyne that I am very much of the view that the gap between our current spending and our tax revenue, given the 33% fall in our tax revenue with the construction collapse in 2008, needs to be closed. I reiterate that by 2014, that gap will have been closed. That is excluding interest payments but it is important to remember that because there is an assumption out there that those on the left or those in the unions do not necessarily believe in closing the gap between what we collect in tax revenues and what we spend in terms of voted expenditure, but we have signed up to that and it will be closed. However, the big issue which will drive the general Government deficit will be the interest payments. That, of course, is the big issue looking ahead.

Senator Reilly asked about the criteria and how the unions will vote. There is number of criteria. There is the economic, the political and the impact for the people of Ireland. I am here today to give the economic perspective because that is my job. My job is not necessarily to look at the political but it will be based on all of those three things and, principally, what the alternative is. Obviously, to vote for anything, one must be very clear as to what one's alternative is. That will be the principal issue.

I hope I have conveyed that the economic rationale for the treaty is very questionable which leads me to Senator Healy Eames's question. We all come here with very different hats. I have come here to give an economic assessment of my reading of the treaty. Other people will have to give a political assessment and, ultimately, we will apply different tests to what we would recommend in regard to supporting or rejecting the treaty. I am not sure who else has been accused of scaremongering in terms of sounding a note of caution in regard to the treaty. However, it is a little bit unfair given that if one actually reads the treaty and six pack, the debt brake is contained in the six pack, so I am a bit unsure about claims about the fiscal treaty that all of a sudden we will have the debt brake with it. We have it anyway with the five regulations and the one directive the Government will introduce on the back of what was agreed in December. We must view them as separate processes. We will have a debt brake whether we vote for or against the fiscal compact.

Senator Leyden spoke about the influence of the unions in terms of the vote. I am not sure how much influence they will have but that view will be made known over the next number of weeks. In regard to Deputy Mac Lochlainn's question, I share Professor Boyle's view on that taken on access to the ESM and the treaty as a whole. Any decision made will be based on the balance of risks. I said in my presentation that while what is being asked in the fiscal compact treaty is deeply unpalatable, the more immediate priority is to make a decision in regard to access to the ESM. Wearing my economic hat, it is the price of funding we can get from the ESM versus what we can get elsewhere.

Dr. Seán Healy

The Chairman asked if there had been a warning light on housing inflation in the decade prior to 2008, would it have made a difference. The warning light was there but it made no difference. In 2001 Brigid Reynolds, who is the other director of Social Justice Ireland, and I met the Taoiseach of the day and pointed out that there was a serious problem emerging in housing because we had got to a point where we were building more houses that year than we actually needed. We needed approximately 45,000 units per year but that year we built 50,000. He absolutely assured me it would not go any higher.

We wrote about it every year in our socio-economic review pointing out that there were serious issues and problems and that when one went from 50,000 units to 93,000 units per year, it did not take a genius to realise this would crash some day. We kept pointing that out. The red light was available to others, as it was to us. At that stage, it was a very serious red light but it did not cause a brake, so I am not sure if this would have had any impact at that time because the indictors critical to the compact would not have been impacted on at all.

Is the key difference now that they are enforceable?

Dr. Seán Healy

No. Even if they were enforceable at the time-----

That is the point. Now if we break a red light, people will come in and ask us what is going on.

Dr. Seán Healy

The pact itself does not contain a red light on housing. It contains three critical red lights but none of those would have changed the direction of the Government of the day.

They would have affected the behaviour.

Dr. Seán Healy

They would not have affected the behaviour. I will come to Senator Healy Eames's question which is critical, but I will take the questions in order.

The point is clear. We were below the 3% deficit and we were below the 60% debt to GDP throughout the Celtic tiger boom but our taxation was heavily reliant on housing.

I do not disagree with that analysis.

That is the point. It is very clear.

My question was in regard to the macro-economic indictors, which are attached to the preamble of the treaty. I think we can agree to move off from that.

Dr. Seán Healy

Deputy O'Reilly suggested that I suggested good budgetary practices were there in the past and that the housing bubble emerged and I had not dealt with that. As somebody who spent the previous decade arguing with every Government every year about the fact it was not practising good budgetary practice in what it was doing, my record stands on this.

I did not go into this in the briefing but I pointed out that the crisis in Ireland was caused by a combination of factors, some which were firmly rooted in Ireland itself. I dealt with the issues in the presentation, which are relevant to the compact, but I also listed other contributing causes. The first one I listed was the housing bubble. I also listed light touch regulation; the narrowing of the tax base; having one of the lowest tax takes in the EU, which was seen as desirable but which I consistently opposed; failure to overcome infrastructural deficiencies, such as broadband, public transport, primary health care, water, energy and waste; failure to adequately address high energy costs; failure to address high local authority charges on business; failure to promote competition in sheltered sectors of the economy, such as in the professions; and failure to manage the growth of personnel numbers in the public service. We raised all these issues in those days. There were serious issues in regard to budget practice at that time. I spent most of my time in those years challenging that.

Deputy Kyne said putting rules in place would help the Government not to repeat the mistakes of the past. We need rules and I was positive about some of the rules contained in the fiscal compact. I was also positive about the idea of a national and international monitoring process but as I pointed out other elements are structurally problematic. The structural deficit is an obvious issue but there are other serious issues.

In response to Senator Kathryn Reilly, who asked about the impact on poverty across the European Union, our organisation has just completed a shadow report on Europe 2020, the EU's growth strategy, for 17 countries in the European Union. We found extraordinary negative developments on poverty in Europe because of the austerity. All the indicators of poverty and social exclusion in Ireland are moving away from the targets and not towards them. I accept Senator Leyden's point that I should elaborate on some of these points. I welcome the fact that my full briefing will be on the record.

In response to Senator Healy Eames's comment, my presentation has nothing to do with scaremongering, what I am doing and what our organisation does constantly is put an objective analysis on the table. We will not make a recommendation on how to vote but it is critically important that all the analysis is on the table. People may decide because of other issues, implications and balance of risks issue to make certain decisions. All I am arguing is that people should be aware of the analysis underpinning what is being done. I presented an analysis that is supposed to be underpinning the compact. I analysed quite clearly how much of the analysis that drove it and that it is supposed to resolve it is very seriously flawed. That is all I will be doing.

Would the debt brake measure have stopped the irresponsible expenditure pre-2008? I have to say that the answer is absolutely "No" and I will give the reasons that I say so. We were bringing our debt to GDP ratio down dramatically during that period, and we brought it down from somewhere close to 100% to under 25% in 2007. Our debt to GDP ratio was falling through the floor. We were totally on track on that issue and consequently the compact would have had no impact on us in that process.

I appreciate Dr. Healy's comments, however, the Government was not regulating the banks.

Dr. Seán Healy

That is true.

The environment in which a government operates matters. My point is that the new fiscal compact will create a significantly different environment, with greater awareness and vigilance of government. That was not there. Government policy fuelled the tax breaks that kept the unsustainable bubble going.

I ask Dr. Healy to conclude.

Dr. Seán Healy

We need tight regulation of banks. I have argued strongly for that to be put in place. The fiscal compact does not lead to the regulation of banks. The banks will be regulated, independently of the compact, and rightly so. The banks should be regulated much more tightly. One of the major causes of the problem was the situation the banks were in, this is a case of moral hazard, and they are still in that situation even with current regulation. This is a European wide issue, we should realise that Ireland does not deal with banks on its own. On this issue, we are not an island but part of Europe. The problems that caused the banking collapse and crazy lending are still there in Europe and the United States, but not in Canada and other places.

I agree with the economic theories of the Nobel laureates such as Krugman, Stiglitz and others, that Keynesianism should not be written out of the equation. The problem is that it is going to be written out. I strongly support, and this point is made in my briefing, an investment programme of substance. We presented that argument before in other contexts. We have come up with concrete proposals. In response to Deputy Mac Lochlainn, we will make no recommendation on how to vote but we will be giving more detailed briefing when the referendum details are available, in which we will present what we see as the full analysis of the situation. People can make a judgment when they have the full information. A good basis is that people proceed on the basis of evidence.

I thank Dr. Healy. On behalf of the joint committee, I extend our thanks to all the panellists for the time they took to compile their presentations and for engaging with members. This was a robust debate and we had a very useful exchange of views.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.45 p.m. and adjourned at 2 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22 March 2012.
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