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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on the Referendum on the Intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union) debate -
Thursday, 5 Apr 2012

Reaction of Irish Society to the Treaty (Resumed)

The meeting is resumed. The sub-committee is back in public session. I remind those present to turn off their mobile telephones. Many of them will be aware that mobile telephones need to be switched off, rather than turned to silent mode, because they can interfere with the broadcasting system. This meeting is being covered live on UPC channel 801. We want to make sure the viewers can hear what is being said. The national broadcaster is also hoping to take excerpts from our proceedings. If mobile telephones are switched off, everybody will be happy.

The sub-committee has been having a series of meetings throughout the week. We have had two sessions already as part of today's meeting. I welcome everybody to the last session of the week. Before we talk about the treaty, I would like to give our members and guests an update on the programme for the week after next. After we conclude today's sitting, we will be back in public session on Tuesday, 17 April, which is a week from next Tuesday. We have invited all the party leaders and representatives of the United Left Alliance, the Technical Group in the Dáil and the Independent Group in the Seanad to attend meetings of the sub-committee. On Tuesday week, each of the party leaders will speak to us for approximately an hour.

That is too long.

There will be plenty of time for questions.

Is the Chairman serious?

Can the Senator not speak for an hour?

On Wednesday, 18 April next, we will have two meetings. Members will be sent confirmation of these arrangements.

This is not Cuba, for God's sake.

Move on, Terry. The first meeting will be with representatives of various unions. We have invited ICTU, SIPTU, Unite and TASC to send representatives. The individuals in question have yet to confirm their attendance. We are confident that we will have a good debate with them. Later that morning, academics and economists from Trinity College, University College Dublin and Cork Institute of Technology will address the sub-committee. Suggestions have been made by various members of the committee, including Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP. At this stage, all of the people in question have been asked to come to this forum. We hope we will have a fairly good debate on Wednesday, 18 April. Ms Margaret Ritchie of the SDLP will be in attendance on Thursday, 19 April. Deputy Gerry Adams of Sinn Féin will address the sub-committee on the following Wednesday. Some of the arrangements have yet to be confirmed. We will have a series of meetings from Tuesday, 17 April.

I think an hour is far too long for the party leaders.

I imagine that each of them will make a presentation for ten or 15 minutes, to be followed by questions.

That is a different matter.

The Chairman gave the impression that he was giving them all an hour.

It sounded like that.

No. I will make sure members have enough time to question them.

It is not an Ard-Fheis. I thought the Chairman was going to give them an hour each.

No, we will give them approximately 15 minutes. We will need to make sure members will have an opportunity to ask them questions. That is the main thing.

That is much better.

I would like to welcome everybody to the third session of today's proceedings. In this session, the focus is on the reaction of Irish society to the treaty. Mr. Declan Ganley of the Libertas Institute; Councillor Andrew Muir, who is the vice-chair of the Alliance Party; and Mr. Roderic O'Gorman, who is the chairman of the Green Party will address the committee this afternoon.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they do not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the sub-committee. If they are directed by it to cease giving evidence and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person or persons, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome our first guest, Mr. Ganley.

Mr. Declan Ganley

Thank you, Chairman. I am sure sub-committee members saw the poignant scene yesterday outside the Greek Parliament when a retired pharmacist took his own life because of his perception of what was a dire and desperate situation for himself, his family and country. The dignity of Europeans on the receiving end of some of the policies being pursued is something that is hurting. There is a sense of pride, national identity and solidarity - an overused word - or a lack of it.

I look at the treaty and ask what is it. I have watched the proceedings on and off in the last couple of days. They have been very informative and I congratulate the sub-committee on bringing so many people in. I found their contributions fascinating. I agree with the summary that this is, in effect, a firming up of the Maastricht treaty. There is a not a whole lot more to it than that. It is narrow in its terms and intent. There is a transfer of sovereignty that will take place, but one might argue it is something we would be doing anyway. It is also all stick and no carrot. It is a very Teutonic tonic for countries such as Ireland, Spain, Greece, Italy and so on and, unfortunately, it is not going to work for us and the European Union. It is, at best, a placebo. The idea of a placebo is that it should do no more. It may not cure the disease, but it should do no harm. The idea is that the fiscal compact treaty will resolve Europe's economic crisis and put us back on a path to recovery, but it will not work. This has been designed to placate the German popular press and electorate to give the impression that these bold, misbehaving countries - we are thrown into the pot - must be punished for their misdeeds and that we must all sign up to being good members of the family. However, it utterly ignores the fact that if the compact treaty had been in place in 2008 or November 2010, the bailouts would have gone ahead regardless. That was the policy being pursued by institutions in Europe, as we now know. Nobody of any significance in the European Union raised a voice against this and we find ourselves saddled with a hugely disproportionate amount of failed bad bank debt that was never sovereign. The basic concept of sovereign debt is that it was something we borrowed. If we borrow money, we have to pay it back. We were all brought up that way. As we did not borrow this money, morally, we are not responsible for it.

As a European federalist, as somebody who wants to see a united states of Europe and strongly believes that if we do not move towards a united states of Europe in short order, we will see an unravelling of the project, this is a waste of time, as it is giving false hope. It is a Potemkin charade to pretend that something is being done to solve the problem. It is like giving morphine to a cancer patient, which is not going to cure the problem. We have to encounter some of the pain necessary for the recuperation process to occur afterwards.

I have spoken before about the federalisation process and what it may entail. I have circulated a document that was prepared by YouGov and Cambridge University. It contains the findings of a poll carried out across a number of member states of the European Union and was published on 15 March. From the poll I underline the fact that without leadership or a debate on the subject of federalisation, an elected president of Europe, a combining of the roles of the Commission and the Council, a common foreign and security policy for the Union, there is actually an amazing amount of support among the general populace for these ideas. However, politicians across Europe are afraid to offer leadership. Therefore, the biggest deficit across Europe is the deficit of leadership which has resulted in us being asked to vote on a treaty that will do nothing to solve our problem - if anything, it will compound it - and to solve Europe's inherent economic problem, massive insolvency. The operation needed is to purge that insolvency, federalise the debt, issue a eurobond backed by the tax revenues of the eurozone and create a united Europe, with an elected leadership, an accountable executive and a bottom up system of democracy that would set us on a platform to achieve real economic growth.

Every day we kick this can down the road - the treaty is part of that exercise - we make the likelihood of our being able to solve this problem in a reasonable way less achievable. We need to bite the bullet now. By entertaining the likes of Mr. Draghi yesterday, for whom I have much respect, who has said we have to keep servicing these debts and handing over these billions, this is an illusion, as they and we all know we cannot do it. Why, therefore, are we pretending? Why can we not get to grips with the issue now and say we have to allow freedom to fail across the European financial sector? I work in the telecommunications industry. Eircom went into examinership in the last few days and I have not heard anybody say his or her telephone will be cut off, that he or she will not be able to make a telephone call, that our counterparts operating transatlantic or European backhaul telecommunications systems will cut him or her off and that nobody will be able to speak to his or her relatives abroad or business offices elsewhere. Nobody is saying this because it would be a ridiculous thing to say. The same argument can be made about the financial sector. The idea that we have to prop up failed private businesses with taxpayers' money is ridiculous and the repetition of the argument that we have to do so does not make it any more correct. It is incorrect. There is pain that has to be encountered, but there is a process, namely, examinership or bankruptcy, that the European financial system needs to go through and once we come out the other side, Europe will be all the healthier for it.

If sub-committee members were to force my hand today and ask how I would vote on the treaty, I would make the following comparison. If I were just below the bridge of Titanic and heard all of the officers say, “Full steam ahead, ram the iceberg, we can break this thing,” I would not say, “Carry on,” because they thought it was good idea. I would say, “Pull hard to port or starboard and take drastic action now; it does not matter if some of the tables fall over and people have tea spilled on them, as we have to avoid disaster.” By not saying this, it is all the more likely that the error in Europe will be compounded. That will release a set of centrifugal forces and nobody can predict how things will pan out. The Europe I would like to see is one that is united, democratically accountable and financially and fiscally healthy. The treaty will not deliver any of these things.

Thank you, Mr. Ganley.

Are you voting "Yes" or "No"?

The Senator will have his chance to speak in a while.

There have been two versions of Titanic and they both sank.

Mr. Declan Ganley

May I answer that question?

Yes. If the Senator wants to ask a question, he should do so through the Chair.

I wanted a quick response.

Mr. Declan Ganley

An old man once told me a story. When he was a child, aged six or seven years, he would say to his father, "Daddy, I want this and I need it now." He learned the art of patience and his father used to say, "If you absolutely need to have an answer now, then the answer is ‘No'." In this case, "No" means "maybe".

As clear as mud. I call Councillor Muir.

Mr. Andrew Muir

Thank you, Chairman. The Titanic visitor centre opens this weekend in Belfast. We will welcome Mr. Ganley to learn about that great invention that was built in Belfast. As some people have said, it was sunk by an Englishman, the captain of the ship.

I thank members for giving me the opportunity to make a submission to the sub-committee. Like Mr. Ganley, I have looked at the transcripts of the previous sessions and found them very informative. It is important that the sub-committee has been established to allow consideration of the treaty. Since its foundation in 1970, the Alliance Party has always been pro-European and internationalist. It has been a long-standing member of the European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party and Liberal International and always placed great store in the importance of North-South links and co-operation. We believe it is vital that Northern Ireland - and Ireland - looks beyond its own borders and engages with the world as more and more issues cut across national borders and require European or international responses. As has been proved in the recent financial crisis, we have all become much more interdependent.

Membership of the European Union has been of enormous benefit to Ireland and the United Kingdom, but in particular to Northern Ireland, through promoting economic growth and prosperity. The Alliance Party is supportive of an enhanced role for the European Union in providing fiscal stability. Like many other countries, Ireland has experienced problems in its financial sector, economic recession and major challenges in its public finances. International interdependence has brought a heightened risk of financial contagion through the bond markets. However, it is also clear that within our mutual interdependence lies the most effective response to these new realities. The recent economic recession was partially international in nature and efforts to prevent a repeat are required at European level, in addition to domestic action.

The upcoming referendum is clearly one for decision by the Irish electorate. We respect this. However, the Alliance Party urges it to consider voting "Yes", as such a vote for the treaty will, in our opinion, help to bring additional stability to the eurozone, the Irish economy, as well as the all-Ireland economy. Recent figures from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment show that just under two fifths of Northern Ireland's exports go to the Republic of Ireland, a market that is worth £2.1 billion. Ireland's exports to the European Union account for 60% of total exports, with 20% going to the United Kingdom. This highlights just how mutually interdependent we are. A "Yes" vote will give the markets confidence and, I hope, provide the basis for increased cross-Border trade. A confident eurozone helps to support general confidence in other non-eurozone countries and, therefore, provides the basis for increased trade or the opening of new trade avenues.

Living in Northern Ireland, I consider myself, first and foremost, a European citizen. In order to build a shared society in Northern Ireland, the Alliance Party considers it is essential to be outward looking and have a European perspective on things. It is not about looking at our society in a more embracing manner, but also in terms of growing our economies and tackling issues at a European level. In the current economic climate it has never been so important to explore how our economies can practically work together to strengthen our societies and deliver public services more efficiently. This is becoming increasingly apparent as the Executive in the North beds down. We have concluded a full term and are now into the second term of the Northern Ireland Executive which is starting to develop maturity in how it deals with things. We have a health Minister from the DUP who is actively looking at ways of promoting cross-Border co-operation in the delivery of health services. That is the perspective on which we in the Alliance Party believe our relationship with the European Union should develop. It should be about working to create strong North-South relationships and looking at ways to enhance them. It is important to engage in this debate on the treaty because we believe it is in our mutual interests to see the two economies grow together.

Beyond the issue of the treaty, we are aware that Ireland will hold the Presidency of the European Union next year. We look forward to that opportunity to explore enhanced North-South links between our two regions and to continue the dialogue begun today. It is important to engage with all our partners, North and South, east and west, to build an economy within the regions. We are aware that responsibility to deal with the treaty issue is not devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly but is held by the UK Government. The Assembly has not engaged too much on this issue because it is not within our remit. However, it is an issue of concern for us in the North and we consider it is important that we work together to grow the two economies.

Thank you, Councillor Muir. I call Mr. O'Gorman from the Green Party.

Mr. Roderic O’Gorman

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the sub-committee for extending the invitation to the Green Party to address it on this crucial issue. The Green Party membership takes a decision on where the party stands on all referendums and we intend to put the proposed fiscal stability treaty to a vote of our members by the end of the month. In the light of this, whatever I say should not be seen as the definitive Green Party line on the issue. That being said, there is general consensus within the Green Party nationally and throughout the party in Europe that the stability treaty will not, on its own, be the solution to the economic crisis faced by eurozone countries. We believe any response needs to go beyond budgetary management which is what the treaty is mostly about and that there needs to be a European recovery aspect also. This would include concrete proposals about the issuing of eurobonds and improved financial regulation and to boost employment, as well as strategic Europe-wide investment. All of these elements are missing from the deal. We are told that some aspects may be introduced in the future, but it is a major gap in the response at this stage. In the medium term significant changes need to be made to the treaties. In the light of this, we are approaching the stability treaty by asking a number of questions.

Does it provide a credible framework to demonstrate to the markets that member states will not engage in damaging budgetary policies? As Recital 1 of the treaty states, the eurozone economies are of common concern. Damaging budgetary activity engaged in by one member state has the potential to destabilise the others. This issue of confidence in budgetary policies is particularly relevant in Ireland. During the early part of the last decade we were reprimanded by the Commission for engaging in pro-cyclical policies, but that is relevant to many other member states also. We should remember this in the debate. The provisions of the treaty are not directed just at Ireland; they are directed at all member states and will place a limitation on the actions of all member states.

We need to be assured that the limitations contained in the stability treaty allow a degree of flexibility to respond to economic crises. We note several passages within the text of the stability treaty and the revised Stability and Growth Pact refer to medium-term objectives and use terms such as "exceptional circumstances", "unusual events" and the need for "public investment". We believe these offer an opportunity to deviate on occasion from some of the targets contained within the treaty and the medium-term objectives. This would allow for enhanced investment. We believe this is important and that the treaty must be understood with this degree of flexibility, especially for peripheral countries such as Ireland. Our position is difficult in terms of transport links with the rest of the union and this should be understood in the way the European Union institutions apply the terms to us.

We must consider how the stability treaty will be implemented into international law and the Constitution. Will it be a traditional approach, that is, an amendment to Article 29.4 of the Constitution stating that the State may ratify it and give its provisions constitutional protection? We believe this will probably meet the requirements of Article 3.2 of the treaty with regard to what is sufficient to give it constitutional protection. However, we note some member states including Germany, Estonia and Poland have specifically included the balanced budget rule into their national constitutions. If the text of the stability treaty is to be implemented into the European Union treaties in five years' time, as stated in Article 16, must we go through another referendum again because of the particular method we have set about giving it constitutional protection? We believe the correction mechanisms contained within the treaty are ill-defined. When the people are voting on this issue they should be given an indication of what these correction mechanisms will be.

Article 16 requires that within five years an attempt must be made to bring the measures into the European Union treaties. Is this a realistic timeframe? Will the United Kingdom exercise its veto again at that stage? What will Ireland's position be towards the United Kingdom exercising its veto at that stage? Some weeks ago the Taoiseach and the United Kingdom Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, signed a ten year agreement of co-operation. Co-operation on European policy was included in this agreement. We are somewhat concerned about this and we question how it ties into Ireland's overall policy on European issues given that now, to some extent, we are supposed to co-ordinate with the approach of the United Kingdom Government. This is of particular concern since the current UK Government is a eurosceptic Tory Government. I appreciate the opportunity to have contributed and to have raised these issues with this committee. I look forward to any questions and comments during the debate.

I congratulate and thank our guest speakers for their submissions, all of which were thought-provoking and important. Naturally we will not necessarily agree with all or any of them but it is important that we hold this debate. I will deal with Mr. Declan Ganley's submission first. We are all familiar with the group of countries throughout Europe that have a preference for federalism and we know why. It is because they are all powerful countries and they have a common interest. Powerful countries merged together in common cause will have greater clout than anyone else. We are not in favour of that. We favour a gradual co-operation and a meeting of minds on issues of common interest to ensure no one gets squeezed out of the situation and no one is penalised.

Rhett Butler famously said to Scarlett O'Hara that there are two times when a businessman can make a lot of money. One is when a country is breaking up and the other is when a country is building up. He told her that the country was breaking up and that he intended to make a lot of money. That was his philosophy. I do not mean to be frivolous but I presume Mr. Ganley was not suggesting that we should all become bankrupt to achieve a new beginning.

The analogy with Eircom was not well made because some will suggest that if we had done things differently in that area some years ago we would not be in the position we are in now in terms of technology, broadband and many other areas. However, I wish to draw particular attention to the reference to the policy position in 2008. By 2008 any decisions taken were immaterial because it was already eight years too late. This is generally accepted throughout Europe by economists everywhere, except those who refuse to accept the obvious, when people raise the question of what should have been done. As I remarked earlier today, the then Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, was faced with a dilemma and he was criticised. At the time I was one of the critics of the Government for taking the decision to salvage the banks. As Declan Ganley has stated, it was not our money, we did not borrow it but it was done on our behalf. However, it was done during our watch and under the surveillance of regulators, Ministers for Finance, banks and everyone who contributed to it. Whether we like it, in order to establish some integrity and currency in the international arena one is expected to take responsibility at a national level even though one did not own the decisions taken and one was not responsible for the decisions taken or the lack of decisions taken at the time. We are stuck with the consequences irrespective of whether we like it because that was the position at the time.

My view is that we could have decided to default and agree to let them all fall in and let it all take its level. This model has been suggested again. It goes without saying that there would have been serious consequences as a result, of that there is no doubt. However, we will never know the full extent of those consequences. Mr. Declan Ganley will readily admit that international bankers do not care who borrowed the money or for what purpose it was borrowed. It was borrowed under the flag of the country, the organisation, the business or the household, regardless of whether it was borrowed for good reason. As a consequence we have a responsibility towards the situation whether we like it. I put it to Declan Ganley that if the particular features of the treaty had been in position in 2000 there would have been a different situation. Each country within the union would have readily recognised that one or several other countries were moving in a particular direction to the detriment of all. I will have more to say on this matter at a later stage because several other issues must be addressed. I imagine they will be addressed by my colleagues as well.

I echo the remarks about what occurred in earlier committee meetings, especially yesterday. The quality of the submissions and the debate has been excellent so far. I offer my compliments to the Chair and to those involved yesterday. Perhaps I picked up the wrong impression of the submissions. There is a need for the type of debate to which Mr. Ganley referred. It appears we have these debates only when a referendum or a crisis presents. It is difficult to engage anyone outside these times. We need a serious debate on the future of Europe for the next ten, 20 or 30 years. We must take the discussion out of a referendum cycle because we can only partially scrape the surface when a referendum is called.

There is a similarity to the submission of both delegations. My question is for both delegations. Mr. Ganley suggested the treaty was like a placebo, in that it does no wrong. I have no wish for a "yes", "no" or a "maybe" answer. Is the problem with both submissions not that both delegations believe for different reasons that the referendum or the treaty simply does not go far enough? Is the position of both delegations not that they have no problem with the treaty but that it should go a good deal further in order that the European Union can work in a sustainable way? Is this the nub of the delegations' positions? That is the question. I will go no further.

I welcome the three panellists to the meeting this evening. I have questions for all three delegates. Do they agree that the stability treaty increases the likelihood of there being investor confidence and, therefore, the likelihood of there being job retention and creation?

Mr. Ganley referred to a united states of Europe. What is his view of Britain's role in such a united states of Europe and the impact on Ireland considering that Britain is one of our main trading partners? I ask him to expand on his views on the use of federal taxes in such a situation.

Councillor Muir referred to the stability of the eurozone and increased trade. Is he worried that the United Kingdom might go its own way and use its veto? If Scotland was to depart the European Union, what would be its decision on a currency?

Mr. O'Gorman supports the issuance of eurobonds. Does he agree that the stability treaty increases the possibility or likelihood of there being support for eurobonds in countries such as Germany?

I also have a question for Councillor Muir. The United Kingdom has signed up to the six pack agreement. I know this is not an issue for the Northern Ireland Assembly, but I ask what debate took place within the parties in Northern Ireland before the United Kingdom signed up to the six pack. Was there an attempt by any party to look at the issue of playing the yellow card and sending it back to the European Union for further consideration, or were the main parties, including Councillor Muir's, more or less content with what was contained in the six pack?

I thank Mr. Ganley for his presentation and note that he has been listening to the proceedings. He will know that the treaty is not a very complex document, that it is fairly straightforward. I have no doubt that he is extremely well informed about its contents, yet he seems to be saying he will adopt a wait and see approach at this stage. What would it take for him to commit to supporting the treaty? Is there an event that needs to happen? What is he waiting for before he decides whether he should support it?

Mr. Declan Ganley

I will start with that question because it is the nub of the issue. This is not directed at anyone here or anyone in the country, but when Bill Clinton was running against George Bush Snr, the campaign slogan became, "It's the economy, stupid". Realistically, given that we have no other leverage and that the Government is being treated very unfairly on the issue of bank debt, it can be boiled down to a simple phrase, "It's the bank debt, stupid." We cannot carry this bank debt and it is of no help to Europe to leave that burden on our shoulders. This issue has to be dealt with everywhere and that is what it comes down to.

I would also like it to be about having confidence that there is a serious will to address this yawning democratic deficit in Europe which is becoming ever worse. I am encouraged by remarks made by Chancellor Merkel. I was also very encouraged by a speech made two weeks ago by Radek Sikorski, the Polish Foreign Minister, at the European Council on foreign relations in which he talked about combining the roles of the Presidency of the Council and the Presidency of the Commission. I was also very encouraged by the comments of the German Foreign Minister, Mr. Westerwelle, in Copenhagen about three weeks ago when he talked about the need for a new constitutional arrangement in Europe and for this to be fixed. However, this is way past time given that the citizenry of Europe which have shown so much goodwill towards federal-like moves deserve to be offered such leadership and they are not being shown it. Therefore, I want to see a roadmap to resolve the issue of the democratic deficit which I happen to believe involves a federalisation process. Obviously, that is not going to happen between now and 31 May, but at least people could start to engage with the subject, talk about having a road map and recognise that this must be dealt with very quickly. What can be dealt with before 31 May is the bank debt issue and it has to be dealt with. As I said, it is all stick and no carrot. It will boil down to having some indications on the democratic deficit issue and it will very much boil down to the issue of bank debt.

I refer to our partners in Europe and the people who are telling us that they presume we will vote "Yes" to the treaty. It seems there is a certain arrogance, contempt and belief that we are somehow docile and servile and that we will go along with what everybody in this room and Ireland knows in his or her gut is a gross injustice against us. The matter has to be resolved. I feel very strongly about this. Members of the sub-committee know that the people also feel very strongly about this. If it is presumed that we will quietly accept the treaty, they presume too much. It would be very refreshing if I could say it was in the best interests of the country and Europe for us to vote "Yes", but I do not believe that today. I believe it is possible and think we can get there, but the bank debt issue remains. The people with whom the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, the Taoiseach and all the other members of the Cabinet are engaging in Europe need to listen to what they are saying. However, the Taoiseach and the Minister are not being taken seriously; they and the people are being taken for granted, which is wrong. Europe is like an aeroplane flying across the Atlantic, with the Government banking sector set of engines on one side and the private sector set of engines on the other. We are flying along and the Government banking sector engines are on fire and leaking fuel. They are suggesting fuel should be transferred from the good fuel tanks to the ones on fire. With regard to the fiscal treaty, they are suggesting the question is whether we want chicken or beef. We need to deal with the fact that the banking and economic engine of Europe is on fire and the treaty will not solve the problem. I will certainly be focusing on this issue.

I will move on to deal with Deputy Bernard Durkan's point about federalism. I refer to the 1700s and the federalist papers. Federalism protects the interests of smaller member states which has been the experience in Germany. For instance, Berlin is not the biggest city in Germany where the federal system works. With regard to the history of federalism in the United States, the states of Rhode Island and North Dakota have a significant say in activities and the same number of Senators as California, New York and Texas. Federalism works, as it protects the interests of small states versus larger states with much bigger and wealthier populations. At least, that is my understanding of the historical experience. It is bottom up in its construct.

Deputy Bernard Durkan talked about the Maastrict treaty rules and the fact that if the treaty had been in place in 2000 or 2001, this crisis would not have happened. The Maastrict treaty rules were in place and were broken. I remind members that the first two member states to break them were France and Germany.

Correct, but they were not enforced.

Mr. Declan Ganley

It is interesting because we have failed to communicate - for which I fault the Government - outside the meeting rooms of Brussels the message to the readers of newspapers, the consumers of media services in Germany, France and other countries, that we have bailed out their banks. TheWall Street Journal had an editorial many months ago which stated that Ireland bails out Germany. That is what was going on in November 2010. We saved their financial institutions. We took on this. They have a moral duty to federalise that debt. They cannot expect us to carry the cost of bailing out all of those financial institutions who got their bonds paid back at 100 cent in the euro.

That brings me to my final point on Deputy Durkan's question, which is that all of those banks in their titles, in whatever language they are written, have something called limited liability. It is a principle that they and all their lawyers understand. Because we regulate the financial sector, it does not remove the concept of limited liability of private property, of individual responsibility from any of those institutions. Once we get rid of that, once we lose sight of the fact that they are thoroughly accountable - to their last penny - for their decisions before anybody else, I think we have taken the wrong path. They failed.

Could I just interject with a quick question?

A very quick one.

Does Mr. Ganley agree that we all accept the Stability and Growth Pact guidelines were not observed because they were not enforced and that this provision is an attempt to enforce them by putting the onus on each member state to identify the neighbour who might be trying to steal a march?

Mr. Declan Ganley

I would accept that. It is a fair summary, but I think the guidelines were not respected. We must ask ourselves if this were in place in November 2010 would we still have broken, and have been encouraged to break, all of these rules? The answer to that as we all know is "Yes, we would". It would be a mistake for us to do it. We should say "No", but I believe the rules will not be followed because I know this will not solve Europe's problem – the chronic problem being that of insolvency in the financial sector.

I will move on to the questions from Deputy Humphreys. He asked whether the treaty is okay but not enough. I could have sat in front of the committee and nit-picked by saying the goal posts are not clearly defined. Professor Brian Lucey from Trinity wrote a very good piece, which is on his blog, in the magazine Eolas, called Knowledge is Power on the Fiscal Compact. He talks about the fact that the rules in terms of the way they will be adjudicated are not entirely clear. I will not get into the weeds on that because I do not think it is that important. Bill Cash was before the committee a couple of days ago. He made a fascinating presentation. I agree that the treaty is probably unlawful in terms of its use of the institutions. I come back to the position of saying, “You know what, so what”. Let us get past all of that and look to the end goal. What do we want to do? We want to re-establish Ireland’s economic vibrancy and health. We all know we need to purge this bank debt. We want to see a European Union that is successful, founded on democratic principles, and that can go out and lead the world in economic and other areas. This treaty does not do anything to get us on that path.

I will be pragmatic in terms of whether I could still vote "Yes" to it. I do not like it but if we were to get a deal on the bank debt, if there is at least some road map to democratic reform, I would vote "Yes" for it. I hope that is not clear as mud.

It is clear as mud. It is getting there.

I wish to clarify-----

First, someone has a telephone on which is interfering with the broadcasting system. Could that person turn off his or her telephone because otherwise we are just talking to each other? Deputy Humphreys may very briefly say something.

It might be the iPad. I thank Mr. Ganley for his clarity. I take it from what he said that it is a case of "Maybe yes".

Mr. Declan Ganley

I am a business man. This is a negotiation. It is a case of Europe giving us something. What do we want? We want bank debt relief. That is pretty clear. It is easy to understand. Anybody in Europe who cannot understand that concept probably should not be in his or her job. It is about bank debt and democratic accountability. They are not dealing with it and they have to.

We will come back to Mr. Ganley after the next batch of questions. Before that-----

What about my questions?

Mr. Declan Ganley

I am sorry. On whether the treaty will raise investor confidence, if it is passed that week then the answer is "Yes, it would". The markets will react positively in whatever indicator they indicate but three or four weeks later something else in Europe will have overtaken it and it will all be forgotten about. Twixt here and there we may see a major Spanish meltdown. We possibly will before the end of May and perhaps we even probably will. That will refocus the debate anyway. We have the French election. I would rather have seen the referendum being pushed out until September because the debate by then would be very different. However, it is on 31 May. On whether it will raise investor confidence, there will be a blip, but it will not have a significant effect because it will be overshadowed by bigger issues in Europe that this treaty does not address because we are continuing to kick the can down the road. Let us bite the bullet on all of these issues now and if this is the only opportunity we have to get around a table and have a debate, unfortunately, the Deputy is correct, we need to discuss the detail. That is the reality of politics. If this is when this stuff gets talked about, we have to talk about it.

What about the question on the united states of Europe and Britain's role?

Mr. Declan Ganley

Yes. I gave a talk in London in Britain organised by the Financial Times a couple of weeks ago on the day this thing was released. The debate in Britain is a tragedy. The position editorial boards have taken with regard to the European debate is also a tragedy. British engagement in Europe is very important. It is in Ireland’s interests. I said it before and I will say it again, we need a Europe of Edmund Burke, not of Robespierre. The engagement of Britain in the debate is essential. That is not the current mindset of the Tory party. However, I am finding in some circles that were traditionally very eurosceptic in Britain that there is a rethinking of all of this, there is an understanding that if the euro collapses the European project collapses and that would release centrifugal forces that could cause horrendous problems if they went terribly wrong. That might not happen, but it could and, therefore, there is a strategic reason for Britain to rethink its engagement with Europe and get into this federal argument. Friends of mine over there, Professor Brendan Simms, with whom I co-authored an op-ed a few months ago on this subject believes for example that Britain would have to stay out at the beginning. I hope it could be persuaded to engage. Britain has a lot to offer and it is certainly in our interests that it is engaged.

Mr. Andrew Muir

I will go through the questions in reverse order. On the six pack issue and whether it was debated in Northern Ireland, the short answer to that is probably "No". The research which I have undertaken on it – substantial research has been also undertaken by the parties – is that the level of debate on the issue has been negligible within Northern Ireland. There has been some level of debate but because it is a matter that comes within the remit of the UK and the Foreign Office it is not a matter with which people in Northern Ireland have become involved. In spite of the lack of engagement and debate, the treaty is fundamental to the economy in Northern Ireland and the type of society we have there. We have three MEPs for Northern Ireland, all three of whom are eurosceptic. The debate on Europe ends up going back to traditional Nationalist, Unionist, republican or Loyalist issues. People should realise instead that the North's engagement in the European Union is fundamental to the type of society we want to create. During the Troubles we became heavily reliant on the public sector. For us to move away from this, we need to be more outward looking and embrace different cultures and diversity and build a shared society. That means embracing European attitudes.

I visit Dublin regularly because my partner lives here. I feel an immense sense of pride that the tricolour and the European Union flag fly alongside each other at ease and in a spirit of co-operation. We need to understand why there is that ease and how it could benefit the North.

The problem lies in the fact that this matter is reserved for the UK Government which is led by the Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron, who defaults to the core electorate, namely, the people of England and the tabloid media that influences them. This has a knock-on impact for Northern Ireland. We are unique within the United Kingdom as ours is a region with a land border with another member state of the European Union. The United Kingdom's engagement with the Union is of fundamental importance to Northern Ireland in building relationships. When Mr. Cameron pulled out of the negotiations, exercised the veto and took a eurosceptic approach, my party condemned his decision as a negative approach for the United Kingdom to adopt. It is important that it engages, as it should be involved in the treaty and the Union.

The debate in the North on federalism is a difficult one. People with their own national identities want the security of knowing they can express them. They may believe the federalist model would remove that security. The Good Friday Agreement allows people to express their national identities within Northern Ireland. We build on that model. As a society, the North needs to address the lack of debate on these issues and the question of how we can engage further with our European partners, including its closest member, Ireland.

The question of whether we had concerns about the prospect of Scottish independence was raised. My latest understanding from the Scottish Nationalist Party, SNP, is that it is seeking independence for Scotland while staying within the sterling area. It is a decision for the Scottish public to make. We have good relations with the South in terms of its membership of the eurozone. If Scotland seeks to take the road as outlined, we will work with it on that basis, but the currency is not a barrier.

I will turn the question of whether the treaty will increase confidence on its head. Would saying "No" increase confidence and what impact would it have on the markets? This is a question of credibility and confidence, both of which need to be demonstrated to the markets. The financial crisis has proved to us all that the markets and their power over politicians are of increased importance. Although this is a concern, we must demonstrate confidence and credibility to the markets and the wider institutions.

A different debate on a renegotiated treaty would be good. In Northern Ireland we signed the Good Friday Agreement in 1998, but implementing it took us nearly ten years because people wanted to renegotiate. We do not have ten years with this treaty; we must implement it. It is on the table for a "Yes" or "No" decision. I encourage the Irish electorate to vote "Yes" in a positive, constructive manner to demonstrate that Ireland wants to be a partner in Europe and at the negotiating table. Mr. Cameron's attitude in leaving the table was not constructive, as one is better off at the table engaging with partners and being an integral part of the European Union. I would like to see Northern Ireland being involved in that engagement with partners, including our closest neighbour, the South. I am proud to be present at this meeting.

Mr. Roderic O’Gorman

To address Deputy Seán Kyne's question, passing the referendum will increase the potential for eurobonds. It is reflective of the disappointing element of this debate that we must engage in a massive process just to reassure the German electorate that fiscal discipline will be maintained when many of the disciplinary requirements are already provided for in the six pack. Eurobonds are essential in the medium to long term, but the treaty is going about achieving that goal the long way.

I agree that any improvement in business and investment confidence will probably be short-lived. Every agreement arranged by national governments in the past year or 18 months has been followed by a one day spike in the markets and a quick return to normality. I caution against the idea of linking a "Yes" vote with job creation. Doing so would be foolish. When it was done during the debate on the Lisbon treaty, it left a nasty taste in people's mouths. I, therefore, encourage "Yes" campaigners not to take that line.

I wrote down "What is my problem with the treaty" as a summary of Deputy Kevin Humphreys's questions. I will vote "Yes" from a national and Green Party perspective, although I will do so reluctantly. The major change brought about by the treaty concerns the balanced budget rule. Most of the other measures are contained in the six pack. We are undertaking a constitutional amendment process on a minute issue and sub-committee members are engaging in a detailed analysis of it, but the balanced budget rule is a blunt tool. The treaty seeks to insert an economic tool in the Constitution, but that is not the best place for it. Giving it constitutional status potentially makes it rigid, but there must be flexibility.

All of this is occurring at a time when there are greater issues to be considered, for example, eurobonds. The Green Party across Europe believes the focus also needs to be on employment and strategic investment. I am angry that there has been so much ado about nothing. The focus of governments and institutions is being distracted by the narrow issue of the balanced budget rule. My party and I agree with budgetary discipline, as living within one's means is a Green Party philosophy that we have always embraced, but spending so much time on enshrining this provision in the Constitution is a waste.

I thank the delegates for their contributions. I have heard a number of good arguments in favour of it being better to be constructive and at the table.

Mr. Ganley is a fellow Galway person. There is a saying in Galway that, if one was asked a straight question in olden times, one would have replied, "I do not know rightly." Mr. Ganley has probably learned this, as I do not know whether he is saying "Yes" or "No". There is another saying in Galway that, if one is buying a farm or selling cattle, one does not show one's hand at the table. One waits. Mr. Ganley can be assured that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, are doing their best to get the best deal for Ireland. That process will not be played out in the public arena in Ireland or anywhere else.

I will address a few of Mr. Ganley's metaphors. He likened Ireland to a cancer patient on morphine.

Mr. Declan Ganley

Not Ireland but the whole of the European Union.

We know we are patients, but we need medicine and surgery. We do not want to be written off. The patient is alive and breathing. There are one million young people in this country who are looking to the Government for leadership and confidence. Perhaps the delegates might comment on the remarks made during an earlier presentation today by the representatives of ISME, the IFA, the FSI, the SFA and IBEC that the country needs stability, certainty and responsibility.

I do not believe Mr. Ganley is being responsible in saying he may vote "Yes" or "No". Despite putting forward all the reasons he may vote "No", he is also coyly suggesting he may vote "Yes", which is disingenuous. His remarks about an aeroplane with a Government banking sector set of engines on one side and a private banking sector set of engines on the other sounded to me like he was suggesting the aeroplane should be ditched. I find hard to understand his encouraging people to default on their debts when he, as a business person, knows that the banks expect people to repay their debts.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

He did not say he would not repay his debts.

For the record, the Taoiseach has said we will not renege or default, which is the message we want to go out countrywide and in Europe. It is disingenuous of Mr. Ganley to say he may vote "Yes" or "No".

I welcome Mr. Ganley, Councillor Muir and Mr. O'Gorman. It has been an interesting debate thus far. It is unusual for a committee to meet on Holy Thursday, but this is an important issue. I note the Alliance Party will be encouraging people to vote for the treaty on the basis that it is good for the whole of Ireland, which is a fair point. I am glad to hear from Mr. O'Gorman that the Green Party is alive and well following its experience in government with Fianna Fáil. Our marriage failed.

The Senator and Mr. O'Gorman can get together during the course of the meeting. There is no law against it.

I wish Mr. O'Gorman well in the resurrection of the Green Party. It is a difficult time for us all. However, we will get there eventually, with patience. I note Mr. O'Gorman is recommending a "Yes" vote but that a party decision in that regard has not yet been taken. I presume the deliberations of the sub-committee will be of great help to Green Party members who are conscientious and will wrestle with their conscience on the matter. It is hoped the party recommendation will be for a "Yes" vote.

I welcome Mr. Ganley who has stimulated argument on this issue. He is a national treasure in terms of his ability to bring forth different views.

That is the first time he has been called a national treasure.

Mr. Declan Ganley

It is the beginning of a new trend.

I am not sure why Mr. Ganley circulated the YouGov-Cambridge University poll, for which only 10,600 of 500 million to 600 million people were interviewed, which is not a good representative sample.

Statistically, it is good.

It was conducted online and Ireland had no say in it. I am not sure whether Mr. Ganley sponsored it.

Mr. Declan Ganley

My input was in formulation of the questions.

We will have an opportunity to discuss other issues in regard to the future of Europe. These hearings are specifically on the fiscal treaty.

I note and respect what Mr. Ganley had to say on issues such as banking and so on and I am sure many would agree with him. He is pro-federal Europe, which would not be of great benefit to Ireland. We are in a unique position. The 27 member countries are unique. The United States of America was formed following a period of civil war. The European Union has been good to Ireland and vice versa. The system, in terms of banking, worked up to the last couple of years. Mr. Ganley has set out clearly what happened in that regard and I do not intend to go over that ground.

Does Mr. Ganley propose to form a party which will put its views on a federal Europe before the people at the next general election? The debate at that time will be on whether the people agree with that view. Mr. Ganley stated the European Union would have a monopoly of external action, soft and hard. Those are extreme views which do not particularly assist Ireland. I say this in the context of the great results achieved during my time as Minister of State with responsibility for trade. We are an English speaking nation on the edge of Europe, which brings us tremendous advantages.

I respect Mr. Ganley's views on the treaty but believe that, on balance, it is in the interests of Ireland that the people vote "Yes". I do not see any advantage in voting "No". We have no source of funding available to us other than through the European structures. As stated by the Chairman, Ireland will shortly be assuming the Presidency of the European Union, at which time we can have further debates on the future of the Union.

I thank Mr. Ganley for the views he has expressed. He has certainly stimulated debate.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

I thank the three delegates for their presentations. My first question is for Mr. Ganley which, while it may be along the same lines as other questions asked, is from the opposite point of view. Does he not believe he should take a position on the contents and meaning of the treaty and, in particular, Articles 3, 4 and 5 which are the most important in terms of the austerity imposed and the impact in terms of the transfer of power, rather than trading a vote which would be a vote to institutionalise austerity in exchange for what would be crumbs in terms of bank debt? It is not our debt. It was built independently of the State by private banks and is being transferred to the taxpayer. We should chose to refuse to repay the bank debt, in particular the Anglo Irish Bank debt which, as Mr. Ganley will be aware, is effectively being burned. Its inflationary impact on an economy the size of the eurozone at a time when the ECB is putting in €1 trillion into the economy is minimal. The arguments in favour of repaying it in order to remove it from circulation are extremely limited. We should, therefore, independently take a position on the treaty and the non-payment of bank debt.

I thank Councillor Muir for his presentation. His key argument in urging people to consider voting "Yes" to the treaty is that it will help to bring additional stability to the eurozone, the economy and the all-Ireland economy. Has he studied the impact of Article 3 of the treaty in terms of what an attempt to meet the structural deficit target would mean for economies across the European Union and its impact on stability? For example, based on the figures on which we are working, €6 billion or more in cuts and extra taxes on working class people would be required for Ireland to meet the structural deficit target of 0.5%, commencing from 2015 when it exits the bailout programme. Domestically, this would have a significant negative effect on the economy and destabilise the situation. For me, what is important is that we look at this from an EU-wide standpoint. The Commission projects that 18 of the 25 countries affected by this provision will have deficits greater than the target of 0.5% or 1%, with an average deficit figure of 2.8%. Enforcing the targets in one year - they will probably have two, three or four years to do so but not more than this - would, without economic growth which we do not have owing to the austerity being imposed, require €160 billion worth of cuts. Is there not a real danger that this would deepen the economic crisis in Ireland as opposed to creating stability? Greece is in crisis, while Portugal is in recession and continuing decline as a result of austerity. Is there a danger of this spreading across the eurozone? Does the effect of synchronised institutionalised austerity mean that its impact on gross domestic product is higher than usual and that it has an even greater knock-on effect on different trading partners?

I have questions for Mr. O'Gorman who is advocating a "Yes" vote. Is there not a contradiction between his position and that of the Green Party group in the European Parliament? He has made the point that many of the measures included in the austerity treaty are in the six pack, which is correct. However, the Green Party group, alongside the European United Left group in the European Parliament, was the most vociferous opponent of the six pack which it rightly condemned as institutionalising austerity, as did the Labour Party in the European Parliament. Is advocating that the people in Ireland vote in favour of the treaty not contradictory?

It seems implicit in Mr. O'Gorman's argument that he accepts the view that this crisis is due to an excess in public expenditure. The right is trying to paint the crisis as being due to an excess in public spending. The only country in the European Union to have high public debts relative to GDP before the start of the crisis was Greece. Debt has resulted from the collapse of economies such as the collapse of the construction sector in Ireland and also the significant transfer of private debt to the public sector, with the nationalisation of bank debt. Does Mr. O'Gorman accept that the crisis has resulted from speculation, worldwide financial dealings, the sub-prime market in the United States and the structural problem in the European Union, where instead of convergence between the countries on the periphery and at the core, we have had divergence? In the European Union Germany has won the race to the bottom in terms of wages and conditions which has resulted in increasing private sector debts on the periphery which have since been transferred. To use the metaphor of the patient, this is the wrong cure for a misdiagnosed disease. It is extra neoliberalism, extra austerity which will make matters worse.

Mr. O'Gorman places store on the words "exceptional circumstances" in the treaty. Does he not think that is putting too much trust in the European Commission which will decide whether countries are meeting their structural deficit targets, the methodology and on whether there are exceptional circumstances? The Green Party group and the European United Left in the European Parliament are fighting tooth and nail against every single proposal of the Commission because it is full of right-wing neoliberal ideologues who have a certain agenda and will not be flexible in setting conditions.

The Fianna Fáil Party has been a centre party since we joined the EEC in 1973. I totally support the treaty on the basis of the social and economic benefits that Ireland has enjoyed as a result of our membership. Before we joined the Union in 1973, women had to give up their jobs when they got married. Many young people find it hard to believe that not so long ago married women could not work. I remember when I was at secondary school in the 1950s, one of the lessons drummed into us in both languages concerned the advantages and disadvantages of joining the then European Economic Community, the buntáistí - míbhuntáistí of the Common Market. That generation were inculcated with the benefits of joining the EEC which, unfortunately, did not happen until 1973 because of our special ties with Great Britain. We leapfrogged over it when we joined the EEC and transformed ourselves when we were no longer interdependent on it.

I believe a united states of Europe is inevitable in time. I agree with Mr. Ganley that it will take vision and leadership to open the debate on this issue and drive the process. It can only be to our benefit as we have benefited from being part of the European Union.

Mr. Muir, in outlining the situation in Northern Ireland, made an excellent presentation. As a republican and Nationalist, I struggle with the frustration that comes from the division of the country, with a small part of the country being in a different jurisdiction and having a different currency. When I travel to County Donegal, I travel through the North. It is futile to have both an Irish economy and an all-Ireland economy. The economy should be for our mutual benefit. Ideally, a federal Europe would eliminate the blockages that are holding us back, North and South. I would see it as an opportunity to have a united Ireland and an all-Ireland economy in the framework of an united states of Europe.

When we joined the EEC, our minds were opened to the big world and we were socially transformed. We had thought Ireland was the greatest place and nothing could be better until we realised there were others in the EEC. The economy became attractive for foreign direct investment, as America sought a way to trade in European markets. Where would we be today without foreign direct investment? As a Fianna Fáil Party elected representative, this is the first time I have seen a Government welcome foreign direct investment. My husband, Mr. Padraic White, was the managing director of the IDA in 1980 and the then Fine Gael Government, led by Dr. Garret FitzGerald, with the then Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism, Mr. John Bruton, did not believe in foreign direct investment. The American multinationals located in Ireland, an English speaking nation, because it was a member of the EEC and it gave them a foothold in European markets.

I support Mr. Ganley's view that the initiative must be taken to open up a conversation on a united states of Europe in Ireland and throughout Europe. As sure as tomorrow is Friday, this will happen and the quicker we get there the better. Things move slowly.

The Senator has to think of the family.

It is frustrating, as a business person, to see how far politics lags behind business. For example, people involved in business in the South formed relationships with those involved in business in the North well before relationships were formed between politicians North and South. I know as I was part of it and we were working together. One needs drivers in different countries to move towards a federal Europe. I was very disappointed when the British Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron, took the decision not to participate.

The Senator is giving great encouragement to Libertas.

I was referring also to Mr. Muir's and Mr. O'Gorman's contributions. I was referring to the all-Ireland position and to a united states of Europe in which we would all work together.

Will Mr. O'Gorman answer the questions asked?

Mr. Roderick O’Gorman

I thank Senator Terry Leyden for his comments on the Green Party. Let me assure him that we are alive and kicking and rebuilding the party.

That is a relief.

Mr. Roderick O’Gorman

I am sure it is.

I would like to respond to Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor's comments on leadership. I suggest the primary reason for the lack of leadership at European level has been the close proximity of the French presidential election and the German national elections. President Sarkozy and Chancellor Merkel have been leading from the point of view of what is good for their respective parties, rather than what is good for Europe. That is a major issue we are facing.

The idea of saying "Yes" in a positive sense comes into what Mr. Muir is saying. I do not think there is anything wrong with pointing out the problems with the treaty. It is completely legitimate for one to say one is voting "Yes", even though one thinks much bigger problems need to be addressed. I would not share many of Mr. Ganley's ideological views or agree with his entire analysis of the problems in Europe. However, it is legitimate to raise the issues. The big problems in Europe go well beyond the economic problems with which we are familiar. Huge issues are associated with the gaping democratic deficit. It is correct that such issues were raised in Mr. Ganley's contribution. I read his essay in The Sunday Business Post. Although I did not agree with much of the analysis in it, I accept that it raised some important points that need to be discussed.

I will try to address all of the points raised by Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP. He was correct when he said a majority within the Green Party group in the European Parliament was opposed to the stability treaty. There is a split within the national parties. More of them are opposed to the treaty which is supported by the German, Danish and Finnish Green parties. The options of the party in the latter case are limited somewhat because it is in government. The Green Party group in the European Parliament has not moved completely to oppose the treaty. Some of our MEPs support it. Mr. Murphy was correct when he suggested that if the Irish Green Party decided to support a "Yes" vote - that is by no means guaranteed - it would probably be in the minority within the Green movement. It would not be a huge minority. The approaches taken by the Irish Green Party during previous referendums meant we were in the minority in the context of the approaches taken by Green parties elsewhere in Europe. The European group is not a monolith by any means.

I do not agree with Mr. Murphy that the crisis was brought about by excessive public spending. The points he has made about speculation are hugely valid and need to be addressed. I envisage that will happen through financial regulation at a Europe-wide level. I believe in strong European institutions where transnational problems such as this can be addressed in a transnational setting. I emphasise that budgetary management issues are important. When Ireland received a reprimand from the European Commission for its 2000 budget, the Commission's main concern related to huge tax cuts rather than to social spending. It was particularly concerned about the reduction in the higher rate of tax and the insertion of property breaks. As I see it, the monitoring process being implemented should be concerned with issues such as where tax breaks are being given. Such issues will play a significant role in bringing about a fairer distribution of wealth within member states.

The final point made by Mr. Murphy was related to whether we could trust the Commission on the process being created here and within the six pack. I suggest this is a political process. Under the six pack, the key decisions on the medium-term objectives will be taken by the Council which will accept the actual figures and the decisions. The Council, by its nature, is a political body. It is more political and more nationalistic than the Commission is meant to be. There will be an opportunity for the various arguments to be made in that political arena.

Mr. Murphy has asked what will happen if the texts of the treaty and the Stability and Growth Pact are applied rigidly. When the Government goes to the Commission to express its views on the medium-term budgets, it will say public investment is needed because we are continuing to endure a period of severe economic downturn. That would be in line with the text of the revised Stability and Growth Pact. These arrangements contain a provision whereby a higher adjustment effort will be made in good times and that effort might be limited in bad economic times. There is no doubt that we are suffering bad economic times now. That element can be brought to the argument. The process provides for the ability to negotiate downwards the burden being placed on this country when it is facing a difficult time. It is not in the interests of the other member states to impose an unmanageable burden on the country or any other member state.

Mr. Andrew Muir

I was asked whether one could vote "Yes" but with reservations. I voted "Yes" in the referendum on the Good Friday Agreement with a number of reservations, particularly with regard to community designation. If one is elected as an MLA, one does not sit as an MLA from Fine Gael, the Labour Party or Sinn Féin - one sits as a "Nationalist" MLA, a "Unionist" MLA or an "Other" MLA. I was not happy with that because I thought it enshrined sectarianism within the North. As I was happy with many other aspects of the Agreement, I voted "Yes" in the referendum. While I had some concerns, I approached it in a positive manner and encouraged others to do likewise. That is the general approach one should take in life. If one has to make a decision, one should look at it and move forward with it positively. I encourage people to look at things in a positive manner.

It is definitely the case that young people need stability and certainty. People in Ireland, Northern Ireland and across Europe want certainty. A number of my friends have gone to live in Australia. It is a loss that such people have to leave. They have gained employment. There is a need for leadership to be shown and difficult decisions to be taken. I have a lot of admiration for the Government in Ireland. It has shown leadership and taken difficult decisions. The mandatory power-sharing Executive in the North is not like the traditional coalition which is formed in negotiations. It has not gained a good reputation for taking difficult decisions. It has a history of letting things drift and making decisions that tend to be fudged. One of the problems is that decisive leadership is needed to deal with these issues. When a decision is made, not everyone will agree with it, but at least it will have been made and the country will be able to move forward. That is important. The most important thing, economically and socially, is to ensure people can make an investment in Ireland with confidence. A number of businesses in my constituency are ready to make investments but do not have the confidence to do so. I hope the treaty will allow them to do so.

I was asked whether there would be greater austerity if people voted "Yes" and agreed to the treaty. As a politician from the North, it is not for me to say how Governments should implement their budgets. While that is not something for me to have a say on, I can say we need to be aware that a "No" vote could potentially result in even greater austerity. Even greater difficulties could develop with the markets and the ability to borrow. We have to be conscious that a "No" vote would not exactly make the situation better - potentially, it could make it worse. We have to be aware that the world is watching to see whether Ireland will vote "Yes".

I agree with Senator Mary White's suggestion that Ireland might leapfrog over Britain in terms of its engagement with the European Union. When one crosses the Border, it is completely apparent that one is in a country which is much more inclusively engaged within Europe and much prouder of its engagement. I am jealous of that engagement because I can see its benefits for the economy and the members of an outward-looking society who see themselves as citizens of Europe. It is something very good. People in Northern Ireland constantly ask me whether I am British or Irish. I reply by saying I am a person, first and foremost, and that I like to see myself as a citizen of Europe. People do not understand this. When I have such discussions in Dublin, however, people understand what I am saying because they are engaged with the European Union and see themselves as part of it.

I was also asked about the mutual benefit, in terms of economic growth, of the concept of a united Ireland. I would prefer not to go down that road. If we go down the road of whether we are in a united Ireland, we will be here for a long time. In Northern Ireland we are very good at debating that issue. We can drag the Taoiseach up to the North for days on end if required for negotiations over the issue.

The most important thing to recognise is that the Border is a line on a map. To me, it is increasingly less significant. One drives over the Border at 70 mph and would not even notice. It is about working to find physical ways of being able to build those relationships between North and South. We are different legal jurisdictions but apart from that, we have got so much more in common. It is quicker to get to Dublin than it is to Enniskillen. I think it is about trying to find ways to overcome those physical barriers which exist to allow us conduct trade. My home town in Hollywood is building links with Kinsale. It is about benchmarking, looking at trading opportunities and bringing those links much closer together. Providing the confidence so that people can invest in each other's regions will allow things to grow. A "Yes" vote for this treaty would be a very proud day for Ireland and would allow people in the North and in the South to have that confidence to move forward.

The 12.5% corporation tax issue is a disadvantage to the North as we cannot work together. Mr. Muir's neighbour in Hollywood, Sir George Quigley, is the driving force behind the scenes on getting the North's corporation tax in line with ours. It is very important that the Mr. Muir fights for this and gives support to the people who are for that.

Mr. Andrew Muir

That is of critical importance because we have an issue with FDI in the North. There has been a significant amount of foreign direct investment assisted by the state but state assistance will be limited in forthcoming years. Bringing down corporation tax to 12.5% will provide a driver to allow us to move forward without that FDI. However, reducing corporation tax to 12.5% is not a silver bullet. There is a massive issue in the North which we need to confront, namely, a divided society. When companies are looking to invest, they want to invest in areas which are at ease with themselves, which are open, diverse, tolerant, which welcome people and which have good cultural capital. We have seen that across the world. That is why businesses invest, especially in parts of Ireland and Europe. We need to deal with that issue. Thus far, the larger parties in Northern Ireland have not really got to grips with the fact that this is a massive issue with which we need to deal. These are difficult issues, but if we are to drive the economy and see growth in the North without the need for public investment, we need to deal with these issues. These include the tax regime, but also having a society where people feel this is somewhere they want to live and visit. I think we are moving towards that, but it requires confronting many of the issues. The Good Friday Agreement settled the conflict, but we now need to build peace and transform ourselves into a normal society where we talk about these issues in the North, rather than diverging ourselves to other issues about nationalism, unionism, loyalism and all the rest.

Mr. Declan Ganley

In response to Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, I would start off by saying I am not advocating default. The book, "What if Ireland Defaults?", was launched last night in Trinity College. It is edited by Professor Brian Lucey, Charles Larkin and Constantin Gurdgiev and it has got opinions on the options open to Ireland and to Europe, ranging from Joe Stiglitz, the Nobel prize winner for economics, to yours truly from Glenamaddy. It contains a broad range of views and opinion and it is really worth the read if members get a chance. It was released yesterday evening.

I am not advocating default. I am advocating the only thing which will work other than a default, which would happen if this is not done. It will not be a voluntary default, but something that happens because we cannot service this bank debt. I am advocating a federalisation where all of the economies of the EU take responsibility and take on this debt in the form of eurobonds. Nothing else is going to work. One might counter that by saying we will get there. Somebody said yesterday that this is a gateway to the next set of things. If we have too many gateways, we have to get to the field eventually. Now is the time. We have not got time to waste anymore.

The Deputy also said I was being disingenuous in taking the position I take.

Which position did Mr. Ganley take? Was it "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Declan Ganley

Let us take the comparison the Deputy made about the fact that I am from Galway. If the Deputy were going down to Glenamaddy with a few cattle to sell, she would take the first offer. That is okay.

I would not show my hand. I would not expect the Ministers or the Taoiseach to be showing their hands.

Mr. Declan Ganley

On the night of the last general election, I was on "Tonight with Vincent Browne" and a Fine Gael candidate was also on the show who said negotiations were going on behind the scenes about which we could not talk, that could not be disclosed to the public and that we could not show our hand. Eventually, that story runs out of road. We have not seen any results yet.

Yes we have in the Dáil.

Mr. Declan Ganley

We are still carrying this bank debt. I do not want to get into the nitty gritty politics of this, but there were manifestos and everything else. I am not unsympathetic to it. I understand it. If anybody is being disingenuous here, it is the people in Europe who are asking us to vote on this thing because it is a lazy placation of an electorate where they are not bothered to inform them of the facts that Europe is facing. I am not going to do this, but I would love if a group like IBEC ran advertisements in FAZ, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and the other German and French newspapers to show the people precisely that we bailed out their banking sector. Their politicians are not telling them. How do we expect their electorates to understand our situation if their politicians are lying to them and telling them they will make these Irish behave and sign up to this thing, and that they partied? As Der Spiegel stated last year, the Irish have accepted their fate. We have not accepted our fate. We do not have to accept this fate imposed by them because they cannot be honest with their electorates.

This is not an Irish issue on its own. It is a European issue. It is not being resolved and this treaty does not resolve it.

May I allow an interruption?

Mr. Declan Ganley

Yes.

My understanding is that this treaty will be ratified whether we vote "Yes" or "No". The Taoiseach has used another metaphor. He said that the train is going and that we need to be on it. My understanding is that the treaty will allow member states to gain access to the permanent bailout fund, the ESM, should this be necessary. We need to be at the heart of Europe. If I may say so, the first Lisbon treaty referendum, in which Mr. Ganley was involved, actually fractured that relationship. We heard the IFA delegation today talk about a relationship with Europe that is very necessary. We need to be responsible and we need to vote "Yes" unequivocally.

Mr. Declan Ganley

So the Deputy thinks the Lisbon formula was the right formula for the European Union. Is she seriously saying that?

What was done by Mr. Ganley during the first Lisbon treaty referendum was irresponsible.

We are talking about the stability treaty today. Bearing in mind it is now 5.45 p.m., let us keep the show on the road.

Mr. Declan Ganley

The Deputy's responsible Taoiseach, at his party conference last weekend, led off his speech by calling for the vote on this thing. He said to the Irish people, "Yes for Europe, yes for jobs, yes for Ireland, yes on May 31". How disingenuous is it to have the gall to put those "Yes to Jobs" posters back up again and pretend this has got anything to do with jobs, as happened during the debate on the Lisbon treaty? Where are the jobs? Can the Deputy show us the Lisbon jobs that her party promised?

Does Mr. Ganley think that voting "No" would be good for jobs?

Mr. Declan Ganley

Where are the jobs that were promised?

Does he think that voting "No" would be good for jobs?

Mr. Declan Ganley

The Deputy said that I was being irresponsible in Lisbon. I called it right on Lisbon.

He did not, actually.

Mr. Declan Ganley

I said there was a democratic crisis in Europe and a financial crisis in Europe. Deputy Bernard Durkan should read the book I wrote with Mr. Bruce Arnold at the end of 2007 in which I stated Greece was going to default. I stated we needed to address the bank debt issues and purge insolvency. The Deputy was not saying these things at the time.

The treaty will be ratified.

We cannot go over this ground again.

Mr. Declan Ganley

The Senator is perfectly right.

We need to move on because this building will close early today, Holy Thursday. Please conclude if you wish, Mr. Ganley, and I will take one further question from someone else.

Mr. Declan Ganley

I refer to one point raised by Mr. Muir about what the markets would think. Others have raised this point also. Everyone recognises that Bloomberg is one respected monitor of the markets. Last week its editors wrote an article in which they advocated a "No" vote. It recognised some of the points raised here, including that a "No" vote would not stop it and that the treaty would proceed anyway because it did not require all member states to sign up to it. However, the article did not refer to the European Stability Mechanism issue, on which we still have a veto. As that is another question, let us leave it by the by for the moment.

Should I quickly go through some of the other issues raised?

Mr. Ganley should do so quickly, but he should bear in mind that they will lock us in here for Easter. It would be like "Big Brother", but we would not be able to throw anyone out.

Mr. Declan Ganley

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP, asked why I did not simply say vote "No" and was not specific on the issues raised in the treaty and the reasons for it. One could give many reasons for a "No" vote.

I hope Senator Mary White is right and that there is an inevitability to a united states of Europe. However, I am not so confident that it is inevitable. This whole thing could fall apart rather quickly and faster than many realise. Any number of triggers could set us down the wrong path. I am taking a more sanguine, pragmatic view. From Ireland's perspective, if we can get the bank debt off our backs, I have every confidence that, even with the Government, we can get on the road to recovery. I am certainly not being disingenuous. A section of the electorate takes the same view as I do, more or less. I am not going to advocate passionately for a "No" vote under any circumstances. However, I will not argue for a "Yes" vote for something as part of which we are not getting anything in return. Let us do a deal.

It is difficult to vote "Maybe".

Mr. Declan Ganley

The Taoiseach has said there will be no second vote, as there was last time around. If no deal is done, will it take a "No" vote to make our partners in Europe understand that they must do something such as what they did during the second Lisbon treaty referendum when they gave us a Commissioner tax guarantees and all the things the Taoiseach did not ask for? Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor should realise this.

Mr. Declan Ganley

We would not have these were it not for Libertas's advocacy, not in closed rooms but in the public square. We stated these things needed to be secured. They were given to Ireland because of that advocacy. One must get out and fight for it.

Thank you, Mr. Ganley. I will take one final, brief question from Deputy Bernard Durkan.

I would prefer a longer dialogue with Mr. Ganley.

There will be other occasions.

I disagree fundamentally with his assessment of the evolution of the European project. Suffice it to say his theory of federalism is all wrong. His theory involves five large states, each of which is rather nationalistic. He may believe one could weld these together and then proceed for the betterment of the European project, but, unfortunately, it does not work that way. I will go into that matter in more detail at a later stage and would be delighted to entertain Mr. Ganley on the point.

I refer to Mr. Paul Murphy's preoccupation with austerity which is a means to an end. I am unsure whether anyone on the far side of the table has ever borrowed money, but I have and know of many people who have borrowed a great deal of money. One common trait with anyone who has borrowed money is that one is expected to pay it back. If one is a member of a company-----

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

We did not borrow the money. That is the point.

If one is a shareholder in or a director of a company and the company has borrowed money, whether one approved it, one is collectively responsible for its repayment or entering into arrangements to pay it back.

Mr. Roderic O’Gorman

We are not a shareholder in the banks. They are private banks. Does the Deputy not understand that?

I have been there; there is no magic formula.

I have some sympathy for that argument. We voted against the bailout. However, this is sovereign debt.

There is no magic formula for default as a means of getting out of the difficulty because we did not take responsibility for the borrowing in the first place.

The Deputy must conclude.

The normal procedure is that one must identify one's capabilities in the first instance, one must identify what one can do to pay it back and the full extent of what one can do. We must show that we have a capability to do it. This is a requirement of every company in the country, including the banks. That is the first thing they must do. Following this, they need a break. That is what is being done. This is a work in progress and it is taking place. Then at a later stage they need to be able to make it obvious to the people with whom they are dealing that such is the chasm and the bridge but that they can cross it together. There is no ultimate solution and nothing simple or easy about it. We must be involved.

I wish to make one last point, as I could not leave without making the following analogy.

I hope this is not the one about the dessert.

This analogy is relevant. Mr. Ganley's idea of an aeroplane crossing the Atlantic is good. Notwithstanding the fact that the aeroplane might be overloaded, either in the right or left compartments, it would be greatly reassuring for the pilot if he or she could trim to have a straight and level flight and if the gyroscope and compass were working. However, he or she would not be reassured to look around into the cabin and find the passengers and crew arguing about who put the aeroplane in the air in the first place and what each should contribute to it.

I think the analogy is made.

Mr. Declan Ganley

The cockpit appears to be empty.

On behalf of the sub-committee, I thank the delegates for coming. As it is the beginning of Easter, I wish them a happy Easter with their loved ones. I thank them for staying with us until the end.

The sub-committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Tuesday, 17 April 2012.
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