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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 19 Apr 2012

Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union: Discussion

I remind those in attendance to switch off their mobile telephones because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. It is not good enough to put them on silent mode; they need to be switched off.

The first item on our agenda today is a discussion on the intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union. I am delighted to welcome Ms Margaret Ritchie, Member of Parliament in Westminster for South Down and member of the SDLP. She has kindly agreed to meet us to share her views on the fiscal treaty and the referendum facing the Irish people on 31 May. She was unable to attend the meeting we held two weeks ago, which was attended by Councillor Andrew Muir of the Alliance Party. I welcome Ms Ritchie and thank her for attending.

Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP

I am very pleased to attend on behalf of the SDLP. I thank the members of the committee. My party is very glad to have been afforded the opportunity to give evidence about the important question of the European intergovernmental treaty and its ratification by Ireland. Although the treaty will not have a direct effect on Northern Ireland, my party has always taken an all-island perspective, particularly on European economic affairs. We do, therefore, have some views on the treaty and referendum that we are happy to share. I am not a financial or economic expert but would like to share my views nonetheless.

It is convenient for some to try to blame Ireland's economic woes on Europe and the euro, but that would be not only simplistic but also plainly wrong. Let me offer an alternative perspective. It is true that membership of the euro, the single currency, gave Ireland and Irish banks unprecedented access to huge quantities of low-cost funds to borrow, which unprecedented resource could have provided scope for sustainable economic growth. The Union did not tell us how to spend it. It was Irish citizens and Irish banks that lost the run of themselves by investing, unsustainably, in property. While it was unfortunate that the bursting of Ireland's property bubble coincided with the global economic downturn and the subsequent banking and eurozone crises, the bubble would have burst at some point in any case. We had a property sector meltdown that left a mountain of bad debt, at a time when public expenditure had increased rapidly under an Exchequer heavily dependent on stamp duty receipts.

When the banking crash came, the Government, with sky-high debt and an ever-widening deficit in the public finances, had to decide on its strategy quickly. The choice was stark, namely, stand behind Irish bank debt and make it clear that Ireland would not default or, alternatively, simply default. The Government chose the former because it was considered safer despite the fact that it would ultimately lumber Ireland with huge additional debt. The alternative might have cost substantially less in terms of debt but would have had completely unpredictable and potentially catastrophic economic consequences. The current Government continued the broad policy of bailout and financial rectitude and has earned plaudits for the way it has stuck to the task. Although the numbers are still very bad, Ireland is not seen as the same threat to eurozone stability as Greece, Portugal, Italy and, more recently, Spain. It is the overall threat to the eurozone, to the single currency as a project, which has led to the need for visibly tighter fiscal discipline in the form of the intergovernmental treaty. We should, therefore, stay focused on the purpose of the treaty. It is to set tighter rules for member states around lower levels of indebtedness and balanced budgets. Equally important, notwithstanding some questioning of its likely effectiveness, the treaty is aimed at showing the rest of the world, the financial markets in particular, that Europe is getting its act together. The restoration of international confidence in the eurozone is one of the essential requirements if Ireland is going to return to the capital markets and recover some financial sovereignty, a development we all wish to see.

We recognise that even in terms of these basic objectives, the treaty has some undeniable technical shortcomings. The reliance on deficit-GDP and debt-GDP ratios, while relevant, do not necessarily measure the right thing. There is a clear problem with defining and, therefore, measuring what the structural deficit actually is, which makes it difficult to calculate whether a member state is in compliance with the 0.5% of GDP limit. There are also circumstances of negative growth where debt is being managed well and is falling but where the debt-GDP ratio is not improving. The argument has been made that individualised debt targets in absolute numbers might be more effective. Also, the insistence on a strict balanced budget approach appears to deny governments the flexibility to introduce legitimate Keynesian stimulus measures at appropriate times in the economic cycle. This needs to be worked through more.

Ireland must look out for the danger in Europe's quest for further fiscal harmonisation. The Government should make it clear that Ireland's attractive corporation tax level, which has served so well, is not up for negotiation. If Europe insists on corporation tax harmonisation, let the other member states converge around Ireland's rate.

There is also the problem in Ireland's case of timing and compliance. Ireland's budget deficit has been reduced from 20% of GDP four years ago to around 9% at present - no mean feat. However, it is still a long way from 0.5%. Similarly, Ireland's debt-GDP ratio is currently double the proposed treaty target of 60%. It will take a long time for Ireland to converge. Accordingly, it is important the Government addresses these issues and makes it clear to the public that it is addressing them in the context of European negotiations.

The EU strategy for addressing the eurozone crisis, driven by Germany, seems to consist largely of administering strong austerity medicine to the problem countries. There are two dangers with this approach. First, excessive austerity measures could undermine domestic demand and choke off any prospect of economic growth, thereby creating a downward spiral from which it may be impossible to escape. Second, if the public only sees austerity measures and a continued fall in their living standards with no light at the end of the tunnel, then governments in member states may struggle to deliver on their EU commitments. As a general point, there is a strong case for the EU to adopt an approach which puts a greater emphasis on achieving economic growth as opposed to a complete emphasis on belt-tightening. This needs to be thought through more as it implies a more customised central oversight of member states and their budgetary strategies and policies. It also raises the issue of further pooling of economic sovereignty.

For all its technical weaknesses and notwithstanding Ireland's difficulty in achieving compliance, there is none the less an overwhelming case for Ireland to ratify the treaty in the planned referendum. Successive Governments have set out Ireland's recovery strategy based around non-default and a euro bailout. That strategy is understood and progress made under it has been internationally acknowledged positively. Accepting the treaty is consistent with this strategy and helps bring forward the day when Ireland can return independently to the capital markets. Rejecting the treaty would cause confusion about Ireland's intentions and undermine confidence in the Government's recovery strategy.

The treaty envisages that full access to the consolidated financial rescue fund, the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, will only be available to those member states which ratify the treaty. As it is quite likely that Ireland will require further assistance from the EU, it should not exclude itself from this resource. It is likely the treaty will be ratified by a clear majority of member states across the EU and Ireland has no veto. If Ireland were to reject the treaty, it would face the unpalatable choice of either voting again until it ratified the treaty or sitting outside the Europe-wide arrangements for dealing with the crisis. Surely, this would be unacceptable when Ireland's recovery is heavily influenced by those arrangements.

If accepting the treaty in some form is inevitable, then it is better to do so now with good grace and maintain Ireland's positive image in Europe than be dragged reluctantly into co-operation. Ireland can exploit this positive position in negotiating subsequent relaxations or improvements to the current bailout regime. If Ireland rejects the treaty, it moves to the top of the list of member states which could be forced to leave the single currency altogether. This would be dangerous uncharted territory.

Some of the criticism of the treaty is misinformed or disingenuous. It is not meant to be a social charter. It is meant to be an agreement around financial discipline across Europe, aimed at restoring confidence so that member states can get back to delivering on their social and economic priorities in a stable environment. It will not be enough for the Government, and indeed other parties, to sit back and expect voters to do the sensible thing. Previous referenda outcomes indicate the people, rightly, expect their leaders to make the case, explain the proposition and convince the public of its merits. Making the case for supporting the treaty in the referendum should be a business priority for Ministers in particular. It is important that, as a first step in its communications strategy, the Government succeeds in framing the debate. In particular, it must create public understanding that this treaty referendum is not a verdict on the Government's performance, on the single currency or on bankers. It is not an opportunity to let off steam generally and to do without consequences.

The Government must set out positively the clear arguments for supporting the treaty and the downside for Ireland associated with any other outcome. It must try to ensure the debate is kept honest. At the same time, the Government must accept there is public disquiet and frustration around the austerity measures at the heart of Ireland's financial strategy. Much of that frustration relates to the perceived unfairness around these measures where some groups feel they are being asked to shoulder most of the burden while others who have done more to cause the underlying problems are getting away relatively free. The Government needs to bear this concern in mind, even though it is not immediately pertinent to the treaty debate. The SDLP advises that, alongside the debate on the treaty, the Government must demonstrate it is intensifying measures to ensure those who caused much of the problem carry a proportionate share of the burden of correction.

Although we are a northern party and Northern Ireland will not be directly impacted by the treaty, we consider ourselves part of the Irish political mainstream and will be supporting a "Yes" vote in the referendum. We accept that, for now, the United Kingdom will not be a party to this treaty, which is likely to be the position for some time. Although it looks a long way off, we want the UK to sign up for membership of the single currency at the earliest opportunity. We believe this would be beneficial to the UK and would in turn strengthen the European Union. It would also be beneficial to social and economic progress in Ireland, removing major anomalies between North and South and facilitating further economic and political integration on the island.

There are those who say that talk about Irish unity is irrelevant in the midst of the surrounding economic crisis. They are right to argue that it is not the top priority today, tomorrow or next week. The SDLP is proud to say, however, that it remains our overriding medium and long-term constitutional goal. Progress on that goal can be made, even in this difficult time. There is, for example, still tremendous scope for finding savings and efficiencies from North-South co-operation that is wider and deeper than heretofore. North-South co-operation has slowed down instead of accelerating and there is a tangible economic return that is being lost to both jurisdictions as a result.

There is the common assertion that now that the Celtic tiger economic era is over, the South could not afford to take on the burden of the North. That is why the SDLP has called for a 25 or 30 year financial compact with the Treasury, signed off between Belfast and London, which would manage down the Northern Ireland subvention gradually over a long period. The attraction of this proposition is that it would continue in force, regardless of any constitutional change, such as Irish unity, that might occur during that time. That is something to which people in the South should give some consideration, even in the current difficult economic times. We will return to that presently.

The SDLP advises that the referendum to ratify the intergovernmental treaty deserves to be supported. We are grateful to the Chairman and his colleagues for the opportunity to set out our views, and we wish the committee well in its future deliberations.

I welcome our guest to the committee meeting. I am delighted we had an opportunity to hear her views on the treaty. I have one question and then a general point to put to Ms Ritchie.

My question is about her sense of the atmosphere within the House of Commons and the British political system in general to this kind of development taking place within the eurozone and the current British stance in that regard. I am struck by a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer and a Conservative Prime Minister who for so long have stated they do not want the UK to be part of the process of economic integration within the eurozone, they do not want the UK to be a member of the euro and they have been arguing that the euro was a bad idea. Now they are arguing simultaneously - I think it was Prime Minister Cameron - that the remorseless logic of integration needs to be completed, but they argue that they want to stay out of that. We read that the backbenchers within the Conservative element of the British Government are more eurosceptical than they have been at any time in recent history. The Liberal Democrats have taken a different stance. What is the view? Given that the UK Government has decided to stay out of it and that generated a fair degree of controversy, how would Ms Ritchie assess the mood within the British political system about this treaty? That is relevant to us here. As Ms Ritchie will be aware, the UK continues to be our largest single trading partner. For them to be discommoded or set out firmly on a different strategic path from ours would be a cause for concern in the long run.

The analysis Ms Ritchie offers here regarding the SDLP perspective on the eurozone crisis is one with which I would strongly agree. The euro is being blamed for much of the difficulty that we are in. What often strikes me is that the euro ended up being an amazing transmission mechanism for sharing difficulty across different national economies. When national economies make good decisions the benefits of that flow quickly but when they made bad decisions, the costs of those flowed more quickly than the benefits, and with far greater effect. The analysis Ms Ritchie offers in line with that is something I would endorse completely.

I welcome Ms Ritchie. It is great to see our Northern counterparts coming to address the committee.

I have only a few comments. In speaking about the treaty in her contribution, Ms Ritchie stated:

It is not meant to be a social charter. It is meant to be an agreement around financial discipline across Europe, aimed at restoring confidence so that member states can get back to delivering on their social and economic priorities in a stable environment.

We have heard much evidence at this committee from various different persons across the "Yes" - "No" divide. Some of those on the "No" side have stated that the logic behind this treaty is that excessive deficits and spending were the cause of the economic crisis, that this is the wrong solution to the wrong problem, that blooming deficits resulted from the crash in the financial system and it is not necessarily about that.

To bring it back to Ms Ritchie's own position, when she was elected at the last general election she stated of the North:

There remains a serious threat of a double dip recession in Northern Ireland brought about by a public expenditure crunch. We have a historic reliance on the public sector and planned Tory cuts to public sector budgets will be highly damaging. People in the North need strong representation to fight against these .... Only the SDLP has been consistent in standing against cuts in public spending and protecting frontline services and our Westminster team will continue in this vein.

Most of that analysis, certainly around the danger of a double-dip recession, is equally true of this State. However, Ms Ritchie is here supporting this treaty which could mean, as the committee heard yesterday, as much as €8 billion more in cuts. The headline figures in this treaty would dwarf any Tory cuts that are being imposed in the Six Counties which Ms Ritchie states she opposes. Why would Ms Ritchie support the treaty in that vein and why is the SDLP taking a different view from the rest of the social democratic movement across Europe?

I was impressed that she spoke of the North-South aspect. The Border regions of the State would be suffering more than others under austerity given that they are probably cut off from their natural hinterlands, and that obviously has a massive knock-on effect on the northern Border regions. If it will contract the economy, why would Ms Ritchie lend her support to that?

I welcome Ms Margaret Ritchie and warmly compliment her on the excellent presentation. It was clearly a well thought-out presentation which takes into account all aspects of the issue that must be considered by the electorate.

An interesting matter that has come up in the course of her presentation, which is something we ourselves presented, is the extent to which she believes entry by the UK into the eurozone would be beneficial for the rest of the European Union in general, and also for the eurozone countries. I happen to agree strongly with that view. It is something that will happen inevitably because it will also herald a bringing together of the big financial powers throughout Europe. Until such happens, there will not be the cohesion of which we all speak.

I compliment Ms Ritchie on the assessment in her presentation, particularly on the causes. It really does not make any difference anymore - we are there now. She mentioned Keynes, as everybody does, but in the correct context in the sense that until such time as we can get to a position where normal standard recognisable economic principles prevail in debt, borrowing and budget deficits, we cannot move into the area of investment in jobs. Otherwise we would repeat what happened in 1977 and what happened in the United States in the early days of the Depression which failed as well. There were numerous attempts made over a ten-year period to address the emerging issues in the Great Depression and they did not work until it was recognised internationally that steps had been taken to address the economic fundamentals of debt, borrowing, viability and the ability to live within one's means. It is tough, it is difficult and it is not easy to convey to the electorate. The committee will be aware from recent opinion polls that the electorate is confused. After all, there were some who addressed the committee in the past couple of weeks who felt they were confused as well. That does not mean to say that the issue now arising should be relegated to the realm of confusion forever. Clarity is required, and I compliment Ms Ritchie for her presentation.

I agree with Deputy Durkan. Ms Ritchie's position is extremely clear. In her presentation, she stated there is "an overwhelming case for Ireland to ratify the treaty". We are very close to the SDLP's view on this issue.

Will Ms Ritchie discuss the debates that took place prior to the signing of the six-pack in the House of Commons and the Northern Ireland Assembly? I recognise she is not a Member of the Legislative Assembly but she is closely aware of what goes on in it. The UK will have to meet the target of reducing its debt to GDP ratio to 60% and it must also take account of the macroeconomic indicators. What sort of debate occurred between the parties in Northern Ireland in advance of the decisions taken in Europe? Were concerns expressed by any of the parties about what might happen? Some of the arguments being made down here on the fiscal compact and ongoing budget issues would also apply to citizens of the North and the UK.

Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP

I thank members for their questions. I will begin with Deputy Donohoe's question on the position of the Conservatives and Tory sceptics in the House of Commons. I recall the debate held in December in the House of Commons, in which my colleague, Mark Durkan, MP, and I participated. Two weeks prior to the UK Prime Minister's participation in the debates in Brussels, the eurosceptics on the Tory benches were already putting considerable pressure on him regarding the stance he and the Deputy Prime Minister were taking. They told him in no uncertain terms that they wanted him to back England and the UK as opposed to taking a European perspective.

It was clear when Mr. Cameron made his decision to stay outside the treaty that he did so for two reasons. The first was in the interest of maintaining stability and unity within the Conservative ranks and the second, and probably lesser, reason was to protect the City of London and big financial businesses based there. When the debate took place on Tuesday, 8 December, he was backed thoroughly by the same eurosceptics who sat on the back benches and who consistently undermined him on the euro and budgetary measures. The SDLP is also opposed to these budgetary measures because of their detrimental impact on the local community. During the debate we indicated clearly that we supported measures to allow the UK to join the euro and were opposed to the Prime Minister's measures. We voted against the coalition in the vote that was held later the same evening.

The British Government has not resiled from its viewpoint. This has been made clear at Prime Minister's question time, which is where one really hears the views of the Tory sceptics who sit on the back benches. Members like Bill Cash, MP, and Bernard Jenkins, MP, are unequivocal in their opposition to membership of the euro. The SDLP believes that the UK should be part of the euro and asks why it is standing outside for party political reasons. It is not unlike the position Britain adopted in the 1980s. Even though it is a member of the European Union, it wants to remain outside of it. A similar debate took place over the Maastricht treaty in 1993 and 1994. I recall the divisive votes and debates that took place in the House of Commons during that period.

Senator Reilly raised the issue of the Social Charter. I appreciate what she had to say but we have always supported the euro and, as a party on this island, membership of the European Union. We firmly believe that if the South is to get its economy back on track and spend money on addressing youth unemployment or agriculture and the economy, the first thing it has to do is restore economic and public confidence. This treaty is not a social charter, even though that is important. It is aimed at putting the financial house in order. To address other economic issues, such as youth unemployment, one first needs to put the economy in order. As a representative of a Border constituency, I recognise the particular importance of dealing with youth unemployment and we want to see North-South economic issues being addressed. As the Chair will appreciate, I do not wish to be controversial in respect of the North but while Senator Reilly's party is opposed to austerity measures in the South, it supports or imposes strict cuts in the North in areas where they could be mitigated.

I appreciate members' comments regarding North-South measures. Since our foundation in 1970 we have always been a strong supporter of North-South co-operation. However, we have stated that everything has to be resolved in respect of the three sets of relationship, and the Good Friday Agreement was established on that basis.

In regard to Deputy Durkan's comments, we believe strongly that the UK should be part of the eurozone and my two colleagues and I continue to make that case in the House of Commons. It is inevitable that sceptics and differing viewpoints will be found not only on the Tory benches but also in the Labour Party. These responses are probably taken for narrow constituency interests. People are entitled to their views but we believe Britain should not stand outside the eurozone. We supported the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his decision to provide funding because, as Deputy Donohoe noted, Ireland has the greatest level of trading with the UK. That is why the decision made last October or November was right and justified.

I agree with the Deputy that stabilisation is the right approach for Ireland. We have to put our house in order before dealing with other issues. The Chair asked an important question about the debates that have taken place on this issue. I have explained the nature of the debates in the House of Commons. Debates have also taken place in the Northern Ireland Assembly. On 7 December the SDLP asked for the issue to be raised as a matter of the day. As I was then a Member of the Assembly, I spoke on behalf of the SDLP. I clearly explained that what the British Prime Minister had done was not in the best interest of the people of the North of Ireland or the people of Ireland because our economies are inextricably linked. The DUP and the UUP took a decidedly different view from ours by supporting the Conservative ranks. The DUP did likewise the following evening in the House of Commons by voting with the coalition on the issue. We have always strongly held the view that Britain should be in the euro and that what the British Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, did in Brussels on 4 and 5 December was wrong.

We need to keep the questions brief because of the time constraints. I ask members to limit their contributions to one minute.

I wish to probe the point made by Ms Ritchie about the no resiling that has been taking place since the British Government made its decision to opt out. I must make a confession. After spending a long day involved in Irish politics, I frequently go home and watch the "Newsnight" television programme to listen to people such as George Eustice, MP, and Louise Mensch, MP, articulate legitimately from their point of view, which is very strong opposition to the UK playing any role in any further integration that is to happen within the European Union. Most parties represented in the Houses of the Oireachtas would like to see measures such as cross-national banking supervision and a greater role for the European Investment Bank in investing across boundaries, all of which would inevitably involve deeper forms of integration of some kind. However, if the next generation of politician in the UK looks at that with profound suspicion - to state it mildly - it will pose strong challenges for us given the integration we have with the entire United Kingdom. Does Ms Ritchie envisage any moderation of that position within the current British Government or among those in the parties that might replace it? Looking at it from afar, it does not appear to be on the horizon.

Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP

Deputy Donohoe has been characterising the viewpoints of the younger British Conservative MPs on the back benches and also those who may represent the future of the Conservative Party and who might even aspire to leadership. The Conservative Party is building up its strength in the House of Commons and is looking to the constituencies, particularly in the home counties in the south of England, in order to ensure that it has a majority following the next general election and does not require the Liberal Democrats in order to form a coalition Government. That is simply from a political perspective. There has been no difference in how Conservative backbenchers have viewed Europe. I remember the debates on the Maastricht treaty in 1992, 1993 and 1994 when the SDLP was very clearly of the view that Britain should support the treaty and support greater European integration. The British Conservative Government at that stage under John Major took a different view and was caught in a major quandary. While it wanted to be part of the European Union in some way, it did not want full European integration in terms of full membership of the euro.

Deputy Bernard Durkan

I agree so much with Ms Ritchie that anything I might say might be an embarrassment at this stage. I agree entirely with her assessment. Would she agree that what is important now is the need for leadership by responsible people for the general good of the people we all represent? We do not need opportunistic leadership to mislead the general public for short-term political gain. In the European arena there is a cry from the wilderness for real leadership of a cohesive nature in order to bring all the people of Europe together as one. We do not necessarily need to be in each other's ears and pockets all the time, but we should be united in a common cause without which the European project cannot prevail.

I ask Ms Ritchie to comment on that and perhaps make some closing remarks.

Ms Margaret Ritchie, MP

I could not agree more with Deputy Durkan. We are all required to give leadership at various times in our political lives. Leadership is now required not only by the Government, but by all parties on this island to ensure a "Yes" vote on this referendum. At the end of the day, the North is inextricably linked in economic terms to the South. We are dependent on that and want to see greater levels of European integration and above all financial and economic stability in all our interests.

On behalf of the committee members, I thank Ms Ritchie for her attendance.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 11.05 a.m.
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