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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on the Referendum on the Intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union) debate -
Thursday, 26 Apr 2012

Reaction of Irish Society to the Treaty (Resumed): Discussion with An Taoiseach

I welcome everybody to the seventh meeting of the Sub-Committee on the Referendum on the Intergovernmental Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union. Following the decision of the Government to hold a referendum on the treaty, the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs established this sub-committee to host an extensive, informed and balanced debate on the treaty and the referendum's issues and implications for Ireland and the European Union.

Our work is almost concluded. Tomorrow's meeting with Mr. Jack O'Connor will be our final one. Today, I am glad to welcome the Taoiseach, who is the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, to the committee to talk to us about his views on the treaty.

I thank the Chairman. I will begin by paying warm tribute to the Chairman and the sub-committee on the valuable work it has done over the last period. In its work on the referendum in recent weeks, the sub-committee has given a necessary forum in which it has been possible for all views on the treaty to find space and to be subjected to careful questioning and examination. This is a valuable function the Chairman and the sub-committee have fulfilled exceptionally well, and I thank the Chairman for that. I strongly recommend that anyone interested in getting a real flavour of the debate read the various papers and records posted on the sub-committee's website, and I greatly look forward to its report as an important contribution to the national debate in respect of this matter.

There are four key messages I want people to take away from this presentation. First, this treaty is only a part of our journey to economic recovery, both for Ireland and for Europe. It is not the full picture, nor it is intended to be the full picture. We have never argued that, but it is certainly an essential and fundamental part of it. Second, this treaty will make an important contribution to restoring stability to the euro, which is our currency, and this is critical to this country and its recovery. Third, ratifying the treaty will underpin the efforts we are making to build confidence and certainty in Ireland as a place in which to invest and do business. Fourth, it will ensure Ireland has continuing access to external finance should the need ever arise. These are four strong and compelling reasons why ratifying the stability treaty is the right choice for Ireland, and why my colleagues and I in government and others will be campaigning strongly for a positive outcome on 31 May.

It is important we are fully aware of the broader context in which the ratification takes place. During the course of this brief presentation, I want to set the record straight on some of the issues and cast aside a number of red herrings that have arisen in the debate so far. I also want to say something about why I want to use this campaign to call for a more ambitious approach at EU level. This is not new. It is something I have articulated at every meeting of the European Council since I became a member of the council after the general election last year where the Government was formed. This is relevant to today's debate and for the future.

Ireland is on a difficult journey to recovery. We have made painful adjustments to get back on track, and I am aware only too well of the impact of this on Irish families. I see it every day. However, we are making headway. Our reputation is being restored internationally. I have seen this during my recent visits to China, the United States, Great Britain and other places in Europe. People see Ireland as the country most likely to succeed, as a country serious about closing its deficit and returning to the markets as soon as possible. They hear good news about us, and they speak well of us. This is evident from international economic, business and political commentary. The Government has shown how serious we are about closing our €16 billion deficit, and our returns for last year show we outstripped our troika requirements.

Signing up to rules at the heart of this treaty - balanced budgets and sustainable debt levels – in other words, good housekeeping, will provide a legally tight demonstration of our commitment to continuing to run sound and sustainable budgets. It will help to underwrite our good name and our reputation and will underpin the steady progress we are making. The Government was committed to introducing a fiscal responsibility Bill long before the treaty was negotiated. We believe it is good and necessary for Ireland that we put our house in order. As we speak, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, will make public a general scheme of that fiscal responsibility Bill so that everyone can understand what it means.

That our partners in Europe are now doing the same, adopting more responsible budgeting and sustainable debt levels, will have a reinforcing effect. A full recovery will not be possible without a European recovery, without a wider return to growth driving demand across the Union. Of course, this treaty will not achieve this on its own - nobody claims it will - but it will underpin the policies that are necessary if recovery is to be secured.

My goals when I visit Europe are the same as my goals at home: recovery, growth and jobs. They require balance. I have argued for a long time that the response to the crisis in Europe has not been sufficiently geared towards growth. In fact, the sub-committee should be aware that the talk at every meeting of the European Council last year was about catastrophe, default, the break-up of the eurozone and the demise of the euro, and that has changed because European politicians and leaders made decisions that have changed that argument, and growth, jobs and investment are now a central feature of every agenda for meetings of the European Council. Ireland, along with a number of other countries, has argued that case cogently and strongly and I am glad this feature is recognised as a central feature of agendas from now on.

Recent discussions at the European Council bear that out. There is now a clear shared sense of urgency about mobilising all the policies and tools at European level to help turn matters around. I make no apology for being in the forefront of this argument. Clearly, one needs a balance in the way recovery in growth and jobs is to be achieved. In so far as I am concerned, the people can be assured that I will continue to press for this as hard as I can at every opportunity on behalf of the Government and the people, including in Ireland's term holding the European Presidency during the first half of 2013.

To recover its economic position, Europe also has to put doubts about the euro to bed once and for all. That means demonstrating to the wider world it is a strong, credible and enduring currency. The recent days of uncertainty in the markets show the volatility of this situation. Recovery is fragile and we need to work hard to secure it.

People looking to invest and do business in Europe must be confident there is no risk to the currency or of it collapsing overnight or of the benefits of a single economic and monetary union disappearing. They have to know these things. There are people sitting in boardrooms around the world who are looking to invest in Europe and who will take this as a fundamental issue before they take the decision to invest in the first instance. I am glad to know the list of investment in this country in particular is exceptionally strong.

It may be shocking to find ourselves having to make the case, but we saw a few months ago just how quickly speculation and concern can spread. This treaty should be seen as a strong statement of intent on the part of those countries that have signed up to it, especially those which use the euro. It says we are serious about our currency and about economic and monetary union. We are prepared to take the steps necessary to reinforce and to bolster them in the face of very grave and serious market pressures. We are committed to the euro and we will do whatever it takes to stabilise it and defend it.

The treaty has to be seen alongside the emergency response mechanisms that have been put in place and reinforced since the crisis broke, namely, the EFSF and the ESM. This is part of a renewed and strengthened architecture which underpins economic and monetary union. It goes without saying that a stable currency is critical to a country like Ireland. We rely on inward investment and outward exports. Those doing business here, whether indigenous companies or multinationals, need clarity and a certain and predictable future without erratic currency fluctuations and volatility. Ratifying this treaty will help secure that goal whereas not ratifying it leaves us open to massive uncertainty and unpredictability, which is exactly what we do not want.

We all know that confidence is fragile. It is hard to gain and very easy to lose. During the years of genuine growth in this country, we were regarded as a world class example of how to modernise and build an economy, make the most of membership of the European Union and develop new markets in an active and engaged way. Our workforce was, and still is, rightly seen as highly educated and very flexible. We were, and still are, an attractive place in which to live, invest and do business. We do not want anything to damage that.

The Government came to office last year with a very strong mandate to rebuild this country and its economy. Our efforts to restore our reputation and our good name are working very well. All around the world I hear the same message. Ireland is impressing people with its single-minded focus on recovery and growth and its determination to move on. I recognise that comes from the pragmatism and personality of the Irish people. If there is a problem, they deal with it. We have our problems and challenges in respect of our public finances, which are challenging for our people. We recognise these challenges, including in regard to our place in Europe and our leadership in many ways of the direction Europe can take. For example, we will continue to play a vital role in the direction of growth and future prosperity for all those economies. They look at our confidence in ourselves and in our abilities. They see how we have recovered our competitiveness, which stands on its own merits. They see how attractive an offer we can make to people looking to invest and build their businesses here. They see a country of ideas and ambitions, with a great future in front of it.

Ireland's membership of the eurozone is undoubtedly a key element of our attractiveness to investment. All the companies that have chosen to invest and create jobs here, such as Apple, Mylan, Google, PayPal, Microsoft and Allergan, have voted confidence in Ireland. Indeed, a number of them are now on record as calling for support for the treaty at the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland "Yes to Investment" press conference last week. Endorsing the treaty and keeping Ireland at the heart of Europe and the euro will show them they were right, and it will encourage others to come here too. As one chief executive from California said to me recently, the reason the decision was made to invest in Ireland was not just because of the location, the language, the corporate tax rate or the tradition in Europe but also because of the passion, the creativity and the ingenuity of the talented workforce here, which stands out. Around the world that message is clear. We do not want to do anything to damage the prospects and the excitement or the potential for growth that brings with it.

As I have said, confidence is fragile and we need to nurture and support it. Turning our backs on this treaty would be a very serious blow and setback for the country. We cannot afford to squander our progress, nor can we afford to miss an opportunity to bolster the confidence we have won.

The Government has made clear its intention to lead Ireland out of the EU-IMF programme as soon as possible, which is our firm focus and goal. For that to happen, we need three things. First, we need to continue to make the necessary adjustments at home. Second, we need to see enhanced stability and a return to growth across Europe. Third, we need to be able to convince those thinking of lending to or investing in Ireland that their money will not be at risk.

The situation is very clear. Only those who ratify the treaty will have access to the ESM. That makes the decision we will take at the end of May all the more serious. I do not believe Ireland will need to access the ESM. As I have said, I am determined to exit the programme. Saying that, however, is wholly different from saying we do not need a backstop for unforeseen circumstances. It is wholly different from saying we will retain credibility in the markets with no backstop. Why would Ireland take that risk? Having access to the ESM makes it less likely we will need it. It makes Ireland a better bet and a more attractive option. More substantially, I do not think it is unreasonable to ask those seeking assistance to be bound by the same rules and disciplines as those who offer it. Every person in the country knows that when one signs up for any organisation or club, rules and regulations must be adhered to.

I have said I believe strongly that Ireland should ratify the treaty and why it is entirely consistent with the recovery we are seeking to build for ourselves and our people. I would also like to dispel some of the myths that are being spread about this treaty. Some argue it is a recipe for perpetual austerity. It is no such thing. The treaty is simply an agreement among all countries that have signed it to ensure a balance between the money raised and the money spent in the shared interest of the stability of a common currency area and the wider Union. Twenty-five out of the 27 member states of the Union, with governments of different political orientations and different approaches to public spending and taxes, have signed it. They all believe it has a contribution to make to Europe's recovery. All who have signed up to it have done so after intense discussions in which I participated on behalf of our country. Every one of those leaders, at the end of the day, has made the judgment that, in their people's and their country's interests, this is the way forward. Ireland shares that view. All of them will continue to make decisions about taxing and spending in what they believe to be the best interests of their peoples and their societies.

Most of the rules of the treaty are contained within existing EU treaties and laws. They are given greater focus and more bite, including through the requirement for each country to give them effect in domestic law, but we would have to adhere to them, with or without the treaty.

The argument has also been made this is not a treaty in the interests of ordinary working people. Again, this is profoundly wrong. This is a treaty that will help to deliver stability in the euro and confidence in our country. These are critical if Ireland is to recover, to maintain the jobs it has, to create new ones, including through attracting continued inward investment.

People and jobs are at the heart of politics and the heart of this treaty; it is not simply deficits and budgets. There is nothing of more immediate importance to Irish workers and their families in every town, village and city throughout the country and to those looking for work now than the protection of existing jobs and the creation of new jobs. Protecting the euro in their pocket is critical. The euro pays for schools, hospitals and public services. The euro is our currency.

It has been said that we should hold back and wait to see what others do first. This is surprising and the wrong approach. Ireland must decide on the basis of what is best for this country, its people and our future. In my view this is a strong decision in favour of the treaty and this analysis will not change. Ratification is already under way and the process is complete in several countries, including Portugal and Greece. There are good reasons the process should be advanced quickly. It is clear that while there has been some respite from the crisis in recent months, not least because of the actions of the European Central Bank, storm clouds are gathering. What Europe needs now is more not less certainty, a strong signal that it will implement what has been recently agreed.

There may well be a change of leadership in member states, including France. That is a decision for the French people. It may be that new leaders will seek to enhance what has already been agreed including through an added focus on the growth and jobs agenda. Whatever decision people make in other countries is their business and I have no intention of interfering in it. However, I welcome any reinforced growth focus and I would be interested in any specific ideas brought forward. This is a priority for the Government and one that I have been advancing at European level since last year. Ireland will stand ready to lend its support where new thinking makes sense in this regard. A new agreement on growth would be the much-needed complement of this treaty. It would bolster the treaty's support for recovery in all countries by agreeing a new focus on growth. This can be done whether Ireland has ratified the treaty or whether the treaty enters into force. The train is moving and we want to be on board.

I wish to comment on Europe's future direction. The recent crisis has highlighted several problems with how business is done in Europe. We have not weathered it as well as other parts of the world, including the United States. This is despite the fact that, objectively, Europe has less public debt relative to its GDP and that it has a favourable overall balance of payments with the rest of the world. Why is this the case? There is more concern about Europe because there is less confidence that our integration and solidarity is sufficiently robust to withstand the powerful economic and political forces the crisis has unleashed. The fact that our economic and monetary union is not yet complete leads to internal tensions, including between debtor and creditor countries. In the United States adjustments have been made easier by increases in federal spending and transfers between states. In no case in America have the citizens of one state had to deal with the consequences of foolish choices by their banks alone. In Europe, the insistence that citizens in each member state must stand behind the entire liabilities of banks regulated in their jurisdiction has probably been the greatest reversal in the Single Market since its foundation. Under pressure from national governments and regulators, cross-border banks are withdrawing behind national borders. One possible solution is to federalise the response to the banking crisis in Europe with the European Stability Mechanism to be given the powers to recapitalise systemically important financial institutions directly. I do not propose a united states of Europe but we need new economic tools to give greater substance and credibility to our commitment to a true economic union. I envisage the treaty as a good step in the right direction.

We need to do more and I expect this debate will continue in the upcoming period especially at this sub-committee. The Government announced the date and wording of the referendum one month ago. There are 34 days between today and 31 May when the people will cast their vote. The Government will use the time to conduct a strong and vigorous campaign. A central part of this effort will be to make available all the information that people need to reach an informed decision. We will send the treaty to every house. We will follow up with a further explanatory leaflet. There is a website containing a short video that allows people to get the essence of the treaty in less than two minutes. No one should take the view that they do not have the time or the means to understand what is involved. This will be factual, informed and explained.

A referendum is a serious matter. It is one of the few occasions when we speak together as citizens on a single topic and when we agree whether to change the fundamental laws of the State. A decision on 31 May will present us with a moment of truth and of real consequence for the country and its people. I want our advice to be strong and clear. I want us to send a message about Ireland that will resonate throughout the world, far beyond our shores. I want us to send a message that Ireland is moving forward; that it is confident, positive and engaged; that it is committed to a stable euro and plays a full role in bringing all of that about; that it is a great place in which to do business, where people can invest with confidence and certainty; that Ireland is a country where future Governments will set sound and sensible budgets and where they will not take risks with the well-being of people; and that we remain as we have ever been committed and engaged Europeans. This is what the stability treaty is about and this is why the Government will campaign strongly for it. On my part I will spare no effort in seeking support for it throughout the country.

There will be two batches of questions, the first of which will include four questioners. I will limit each person to three minutes and I will stop you after three minutes because it is important that we get everybody in. It is also important that the Taoiseach has a chance to answer everyone's questions.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

I thank the Taoiseach for his presentation. My first question relates to the website which the Taoiseach referred to as factual and informative, descriptions, unfortunately, with which I disagree. Ministers have been on the airwaves proclaiming this as a neutral, balanced website, one that does not advocate a "Yes" vote. I refer to a short quote from the website which states: "There is only one positive choice. Vote yes. Yes to investment. Yes to stability and Yes to recovery." That is contained in the stabilitytreaty.ie website, paid for by the taxpayer as part of the statement from the Taoiseach. Does the Taoiseach not agree that it is entirely inappropriate to spend taxpayers’ money in this way? Will the explanatory leaflet he proposes be of the same character? Why not use the Referendum Commission? The Referendum Commission was set up precisely to ensure a balanced debate and presentation of ideas of both sides. Instead, €2 million has been spent on a separate, taxpayer-funded Government campaign which I believe is simply a propaganda campaign for the “Yes” side, if the content of the website is anything to go by, and which is potentially in breach of the McKenna judgment.

Since the Taoiseach is engaged in what I consider to be scaremongering and false promises, why should the people believe him? He is from the same party that made the promise on posters as part of the second Lisbon treaty referendum which stated "Yes to jobs, yes to Europe, yes to Lisbon." The Taoiseach wheeled out the same idea during the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis. His speech today and the campaign in general is peppered with references to jobs. Will the Taoiseach explain how many extra jobs were created by voting "Yes" to the second Lisbon treaty? I can inform him that there are 79,900 fewer jobs in the country today than there were at the time of the second Lisbon vote, according to the quarterly national household survey.

I do not accept that the treaty will bring any sort of stability. How can imposing savage austerity in Ireland and throughout Europe bring prosperity? How will we meet the structural deficit target of €5.7 billion plus the potential of over €8 billion in cuts and extra taxes? Where will that money come from? More importantly, does the Taoiseach agree that this target effectively will mean €166 billion plus in extra cuts and taxes across Europe? These are our trading partners and, in the words of the IMF, simultaneous fiscal consolidation by many countries is likely to be particularly costly. Would the Taoiseach agree with Paul Krugman's statement about the apparent determination of European leaders to commit economic suicide for the Continent as a whole and that this treaty will turn the recession we are in, and which the Taoiseach's austerity policies have led us to and deepened the crisis for us, into a deeper depression?

It is clear that the centrepiece of the campaign will be about European Stability Mechanism, ESM, second bailout funding. I do not accept it. It is scaremongering. We could access the ESM if the Government used its veto. We could access the EFSF and the IMF. In any case, if we implement the different policies we would not need it but I ask for a clear answer. What was the policy of the Government about the insertion of a blackmail clause? Did the Government oppose the insertion or accept it?

I welcome the Taoiseach to the committee. We had vetoes in the last two referendums and there was a strong awareness throughout Europe of how matters were proceeding in Ireland. We do not have that in this instance. In his presentation the Taoiseach touched on the importance of a "Yes" vote for investment to the country and mentioned factors such as the passion and ingenuity of the Irish people, our low corporation tax rates, falling business costs, membership of the eurozone and so on. We have had some good successes recently in Cork, for example, with Apple bringing in jobs. The Taoiseach has been travelling around the world but is there an awareness abroad, with respect to foreign direct investment, and even among indigenous businesses of the effects of a "Yes" or a "No" vote in the forthcoming treaty given that we have already had good success in bringing jobs into the country? Many of the reasons for that investment will continue to exist after the referendum in any case.

I know the Taoiseach cannot be specific about companies but having met some of the large groups, employers and CEOs in some of the big corporations I am aware they tend to be candid in their views. Is it not the case that we will have many of the key parameters for attracting investment regardless of the outcome of the referendum? Equally, given that we do not have a veto on this referendum, is it the Taoiseach's opinion that our reputation in Europe will not be damaged by virtue of a "No" vote?

I thank the Taoiseach and his colleagues for attending and congratulate him on the positive theme in his contribution. In recent weeks various suggestions have been put forward as to what this treaty means but the Taoiseach hit the nail on the head when he referred to confidence and stability as opposed to negatively and indecision. When those two issues are brought to bear in any forum and business people and investors are asked for their opinion, invariably they come down strongly on the side of positive decision makers who have confidence in what they are doing.

In contrast, we had another party leader here yesterday who in the course of his contribution, and with no disrespect to him, mentioned the word "austerity" 15 times. The Taoiseach has responded well to the issue of austerity, which has become the theme of those who are opposed to the treaty. He has stated, and this is hugely important, that it is not an end in itself but a means to an end in terms of getting the financial houses of the respective EU countries in order and getting us to understand the need to pay our way, bring about stability and a sound economic basis on which to build.

A point I have made many times to my colleague is that some years ago we had an economic stimulus in the middle of an economic crisis which did not work. The recovery the country could have enjoyed was postponed for about ten years by virtue of the wrong intervention at the wrong time. I refer to 1977. That was an economic theory put forward by a good economist but it was wrong.

In all of the discussions we have had the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and all those who have espoused a "Yes" vote have, without exception, come forward not on the basis that a "Yes" vote would produce jobs but that it would create the environment within which jobs and economic activity will prosper. One is a prelude to the other as opposed to the presumption in some quarters that if we vote "Yes" overnight we will get more jobs immediately. We know that is not the case but we do know that the economic environment must be protected, and that is the right way to go about it.

I welcome the Taoiseach, his advisers and civil servants and thank him for a concise presentation. I welcome his setting out of what he believes to be the broader reform agenda within Europe with a view to the type of future decisions that will have to be taken if we are to have an economic bloc that works and can ensure that we do not find ourselves in a crisis such as this one again.

To some extent we are in a rarefied environment here in the Houses of the Oireachtas and we can have that debate among ourselves. Some of us are broadly in agreement with the strategy and others are not. In any event this treaty will have to be voted on by the Irish people and we must succeed in communicating effectively with them, and the Taoiseach's presentation earlier is a considered step in the right direction in that regard. However, the polling that has been done would appear to suggest that a large cohort of people are not familiar with what this treaty seeks to achieve. There is a significant job of work to be done by all of us, regardless of the side we are arguing, to communicate with the Irish people. The Taoiseach might outline for us the strategy the Government has for ensuring that is addressed to ensure we do not have people voting in a referendum on the old line that if one does not know, vote "No". We cannot afford to allow that to happen on this occasion.

As I said, this is a rarefied environment to some extent and it is often difficult to take the debate to the people but an opportunity has been afforded to the Taoiseach by Vincent Browne of TV3 who has invited leaders of the various parties to participate in an open debate. It can be a daunting proposal. I have been victim to Mr. Browne on more than one occasion but none the less it provides a significant forum for debate. It is respected and recognised as a way of communicating with the Irish people, and I encourage the Taoiseach to reconsider and take up that offer.

We have had four questioners and there are more offering. If it would be helpful I can alert the Taoiseach when eight minutes have elapsed.

I thank the Chairman. Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP, raised the question of scaremongering. I assure Mr. Murphy that we are not in the business of scaremongering. We have a responsibility to give the people the facts and the information and to explain to them what this treaty is about. That is the direct opposite of taking court cases that amount to censorship of valuable information that would ensure people are properly informed as to what they should do.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

By the taxpayer.

This campaign will kick off on Monday when the order for the referendum is signed. It is being signed on Monday to give the electors the absolute right to see that they are properly registered on a supplementary register if that be necessary. They have 48 hours after the order is signed to do so. If the Minister were to sign it on Friday, offices would be closed on Saturday and Sunday thereby denying people the right to have their name on the electors' list to cast their vote.

In terms of what Mr. Murphy has proposed, I want him to understand that certainty in this case underwrites recovery, while uncertainty or a "No" vote will undermine it. Only two options are available: "Yes" and "No". By voting "Yes", people will have real certainty whereas asking people to vote "No" is asking them to walk out into the darkness where uncertainty about future funding abounds. I do not want to take the latter course.

On the issue of the website featuring ministerial statements, once the campaign formally begins, the only things to emerge from the Government will be facts, information and explanations of the treaty. The Referendum Commission under the eminent justice has been allocated €2.2 million and is entirely independent in the way it does business. I have no impact on or input into what it does. I was struck by Deputy Donohoe's filleting of the leader of the "No" campaign yesterday. Reference is made to misleading information but what we had was a deliberate subversion of the truth, with leaflets about what should happen being distributed to the population at large.

The Referendum Commission will have a clear brief and mandate and, as I stated, is entirely independent. The Government does not write its material and it does not write our material. It is important from a Government perspective that we give people facts and explain what the treaty means. For this reason, every household will receive a copy of the treaty in Irish and English accompanied by a simple, factual explanation. This is entirely in line with the McKenna judgment. People will also receive a second leaflet from the Government. The independent Referendum Commission will do its own thing. The Government parties - Fine Gael and the Labour Party - and the Fianna Fáil Party in opposition which supports the treaty will set out their positions.

We do not have a veto over the European Stability Mechanism. Mr. Murphy does not help people by putting forward that option because we do not have a veto. Viewed from every legal perspective, the ESM treaty does not require unanimity to enter into force.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

We have a veto on the amendment to Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning European Union.

The European Stability Mechanism will be launched when ratification by countries representing 90% of contributions to its fund takes place. Given that Ireland's contribution to the fund is of the order of 1.6%, anybody who understands simple mathematics will see we do not have a veto.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

That is not correct.

Why would Ireland want to do down its own insurance policy? Taking selective quotations from different economists does not respect people's intelligence. Let me repeat for Mr. Murphy that the choice for Ireland is straightforward. Certainty and a "Yes" vote will underwrite our recovery, while uncertainty and a "No" vote will undermine it. It is true Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union requires unanimity, but it is not necessary for Article 136 to enter into force before the ESM is established.

There is a keen awareness of the importance of confidence and stability in respect of investment propositions being made by international investors and multinational companies. It has been my privilege, on behalf of the Government and people, to meet many such companies in the past 12 months. These are no-nonsense people who clearly indicate they will not continue to invest with certainty in a country that does not have belief in its future. Former President Clinton, speaking in New York, stated to a group of serious investors from around the world that Ireland's demographics, tax position, track record, talent and technology make us an outstanding proposition for investment. We want to keep that line of investment strong. What this means, and Mr. Murphy put his finger on this, is young men and women having the opportunity to go to work in this country, if that is what they wish to do, and carve out careers, opportunities and lives for themselves and families. That is what good politics is about.

The Government has to put its house in order, adhere to good housekeeping rules and see to it we grow the economy. Part of that involves investment opportunities from abroad. Chief executive officers tell me they like clarity, a horizon and definition. They do not want change in the corporation tax rate and they want certainty about the capacity of Ireland's young workforce to meet the demands and match the skills required by global change, including in areas such as genetics, biotechnology and robotics.

Deputy Durkan referred to paying our way, stability and the economic stimulus of a different time. We have learned lessons from this. It is in the interest of Irish people to secure our future. Last year, President Obama asked people on Dame Street if they believed in Ireland and stated he believed in this country. "Is féidir linn", he said. We do not want to cut off an opportunity that may arise in future due to unforeseen circumstances.

I want to get out of the programme as quickly as possible. We are working with the people in challenging circumstances to arrive at that position. We should not destroy the perception of Ireland internationally that we have the ability to become the first country to emerge from a programme, retrieve our economic independence and plot our own course for the future. As I stated, people in other countries, whether in the Netherlands, where the Government has lost its majority, Serbia, France or the German regions, have to make their decisions. We want to contribute to the overall debate on the growth of the economies of Europe because it is in everybody's interests to do so. Where is Europe in the economic projections of many international commentators which show growth for China, India, Japan, South Africa, Russia, Brazil and the United States? We set out on interminable discussions between the Commission, Parliament and Council. We must now focus on the politics of making decisions that increase opportunities for each of our economies to grow. The treaty will add to good housekeeping rules and keep stability and growth strong.

For the information of Deputy Dooley, there will be a strong information strategy and we will see to it that electors are given the most comprehensive and factual information in the best way possible in order that they are properly and full informed when they make their decision on 31 May. It would not be a good idea to attempt to prevent the Government from giving factual information or explanations of the treaty or from setting out the detail of its content. For this reason, a copy of the treaty in English and Irish is being sent to everyone and we will make arrangements for those who require a copy in Braille. There will be many opportunities for us to engage with others who may not share our views and I will be happy to do so.

I welcome the Taoiseach to the meeting and note his comments. Having attended the majority of the sessions of the sub-committee, I particularly recall the positive soundings of one session in the week after Easter attended by representatives of ISME, IBEC, the Small Firms Association, Financial Services Ireland and the Irish Farmers Association, all of whom called for a "Yes" vote. Those present used words such as "certainty", "responsibility", "investment", "growth" and "positivity". The session resonated with me and copperfastened my views on the treaty because the bodies in attendance represent job creators and investors who clearly believe the treaty will instil confidence in the euro and Ireland and strengthen the international perception of this country.

I am from Galway where foreign direct investment is very important. The view of the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland and its support is obviously very important. In Connemara, for example, it was recently announced that 220 jobs will be created by Bioniche Teoranta in Inverin and another jobs announcement is due next week. Would the Taoiseach concur that a "Yes" vote will send out a strong, positive message from Ireland, will protect our currency, promote stability, encourage investment, instill confidence and ultimately put us more firmly on the road to economic recovery?

I thank the Taoiseach for his presentation. Across Europe there is clearly a turning of the tide taking place against austerity. In Spain, one of Fine Gael's sister parties has stated that it will not meet the deficit targets. The Spanish Government is putting austerity in place, but it has stated that it will not meet deficit targets. The Dutch Government is about to collapse because the Dutch Labour Party has refused to accept deficit targets that put more pain on its people. It is expected that the man who is likely to be the next French President will seek to renegotiate this treaty, and he interestingly referred to what Ireland has done in the past.

The Taoiseach was elected on a platform to defend the interests of the Irish people. I will put a question to him today and I want a straight answer. I want the truth and nothing but the truth from him. Ireland is making a contribution to the ESM treaty which is per capita the same as everybody else. We are an equal partner to that treaty. For that treaty to come into being, it has to have a legal basis in EU treaties. For the treaty to come into being, Article 136 has to be amended. The Taoiseach has stated that only those who ratify this treaty will have access to the ESM. The main plank of the Government’s message has been to scare the bejaysus out of the Irish people if they do not support this treaty. However, he has not told the Irish people that he has the power to stop this. He has the power to veto this clause; not the ESM treaty, but this clause. If François Hollande can win support by telling his people that he will renegotiate this austerity treaty, how come the Taoiseach cannot make a clear statement that he will not put the treaty is in place unless this clause is removed and that he has the power to stop it? The Taoiseach has a chance today to put an end to this nonsense and allow people to debate this austerity treaty on its merits or demerits.

How does the Taoiseach propose to meet the 0.5% structural deficit targets? How does he propose to find an extra €6 billion in cuts, following the €8 billion in cuts we will face over the next three years? Where is he going to find that money? Who will be cut? How many jobs will be cut? What new taxes will be brought in? These are very simple questions. We need straight answers today to those questions.

I thank the Taoiseach for his presentation. I find it absolutely extraordinary to hear Sinn Féin Deputies talk about the need for the truth and nothing but the truth, and looking for straight answers from the Taoiseach, when they are circulating a leaflet across the country that contains the deliberate misrepresentation and the selective quoting of impartial economists. An economist walked into this room and uttered a sentence in front of this committee, and Sinn Féin quoted half of the sentence by Professor Karl Whelan and circulated it around the country.

Here is the spoiler again. That is his economic analysis of the treaty. The Deputy can be his spoiler if he likes. He might get some brownie points with the Taoiseach. Perhaps he might get a chairmanship or something. That is really wonderful stuff.

Thank you, Deputy.

I know I have really touched a raw nerve with Sinn Féin and Deputy Mac Lochlainn.

Not at all. I find it amusing.

Given the impact this has had on Sinn Féin Deputies, and given the Deputy's demand for straight talking, I am sure their inability to deliver straight quotations on a leaflet on what people have said is a matter of regret to them already. However, this is a debate in which legitimate questions can be raised and in which there are uncertain people out there and people who are planning to vote "No" and may do so. Above all else, we need to give them a debate based on facts. We saw the inability of the leaders of the Sinn Féin campaign yesterday to do that.

I would like to focus on one particular question, which deals with the issue of conditionality. It appears to me that people on the "No" side need to make their mind up about Article 136. With one hand, they are calling it the blackmail clause. On the other hand they are saying that even if the people vote "No", we will still be able to access the ESM.

Mr. Paul Murphy MEP

That is not the blackmail clause.

They need to make their mind up on this. In the first part of the campaign they are saying that the clause has conditionality, but now they are saying it does not matter how people vote because Ireland will be able to access the funds under that treaty. What is it? We know that it is a clause that has conditionality in it. The reason that is important is because that will be our money. It will be Irish taxpayers' money in a few years' time, and we will not want that money invested or spent abroad without conditions being put on it. It is understandable that others would feel the same.

I will be as brief as possible. A high ranking member of Angela Merkel's coalition has said that the German Government is ready to accept rhetorical changes to the EU fiscal compact treaty in case of victory of French Socialist Party candidate François Hollande in the French presidential elections. I would like to quote Mr. Hollande in The Irish Times, so any charges of misrepresentation should be brought to that newspaper:

There will be a renegotiation. Will the treaty be changed? I hope so. Or another treaty arranged. That is up for negotiation. But the treaty, as is, will not be ratified.

Can the Taoiseach comment on that? Deputy Mac Lochlainn made the point that the tide is turning across Europe and the pact needs to be examined again. I know that Mr. Hollande, when talking about the centrepiece of the fiscal compact, said "Budgetary responsibility? Yes. Austerity for life? No." I would like the Taoiseach to respond to comments made by Mr. Hollande to the effect that the treaty will not be ratified.

Two months ago, President Barroso of the European Commission sent an action team here to look at what could be done to tackle youth employment in Ireland, given that we have both extremely high youth unemployment rates and high emigration rates. The action team did not meet anybody except officials and some groups. They did not meet any political parties. When I submitted a freedom of information request to find out the action points of that meeting, I did not receive any concrete responses. They were withheld under the freedom of information laws so I only received information that was already in the public domain.

What is this treaty doing for those young people who voted "Yes for Jobs" on the Lisbon treaty and who are now unemployed or who are in Australia, Canada or New Zealand looking for work? What is it doing for the domestic economy, which by and large dictates the availability of employment across the State? The Taoiseach stated that young people have the opportunity to carve out their lives and get a job in this country if that is what they wish to do. He also stated that investors are not just looking for the corporate tax rate, the language, the location, but also the workforce. None of that will change due to the referendum result. We still have the corporation tax rate. We still have the language advantage, the location advantage, and hopefully we will still have the workforce if young people do not emigrate in even greater numbers. We will still tick these valuable boxes.

I note what the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland stated, but I would like to make the point that not all people are going to be employed by multinational corporations or FDI companies in the high-tech sectors. People's spending power will be important to keep the domestic economy going. People's ability to spend is critical. Will the treaty not change that? Comments have been made that a €6 billion fiscal adjustment will be required on top of the current fiscal consolidation schedule. Will that not damage the domestic economy as it is, and thus the ability to create employment in the domestic economy?

I welcome the Taoiseach and I congratulate him on his speech. It was a first class presentation and I identified with every point in it. I have stated in the Seanad a number of times that this is the first Government that has genuinely welcomed foreign direct investment. From my own personal experience, I was sensitive that previous Governments did not give due recognition to the importance of foreign investment. Now the Taoiseach is putting it on the radar.

As Fianna Fáil spokesman on jobs and enterprise in the Seanad, as far as I am concerned the treaty is about jobs. We hear people on the other side saying it is not about jobs but the only jobs that have been created in the last four months were the 2,300 jobs brought in by the American multinationals between January and April. My colleague said that not everyone works for a multinational but there are ancillary jobs in construction and other areas.

As a colleague said, there is a communication issue with the public. Those on both sides of the argument are articulate and convincing and I do not want to tell the Taoiseach how to do his job but the people on the "No" side are saying this is about continued austerity. I know the Taoiseach raised with Tony Blair a couple of months ago that we need a programme for growth for Europe. The Taoiseach must come up with a specific commitment. There is a serious economic situation with 23% unemployment in Spain, and 50% of young people out of work. The same is the case in Greece, with 21% unemployment, and the figure is 14.7% here. I am not telling the Taoiseach what to do but the "Yes" side must stress that if people vote for this the European Union will make specific commitments on recovery, growth and job creation. There must be something on the table. When on the television and radio, the Taoiseach must stress that the EU will have commitments for growth, recovery and jobs. It must be clear to people.

I welcome the Taoiseach and his officials to the committee and thank him for the presentation. Given the negative comments this morning, I would also like to thank God for the Taoiseach's positivity and his commitment to my country, where my children are going to grow up and enjoy the renewed confidence we are seeing coming back to the country, and have employment, education and all that goes with having a good life here. I do not want to sound patronising but I want to encourage the Taoiseach to stay positive given the negativity that will be displayed over the next few weeks by the "No" campaign, not only for us and the argument but for the future of the country.

I call on those advocating a "No" vote to start selling the merits of what they think Ireland will gain from a "No" vote, not just nitpick and try to score points about the positive "Yes" campaign.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

It is not nitpicking to talk about €6 billion of austerity measures.

Mr. Murphy has already been exceptionally rude up to this point so he might let me finish.

It is a made up figure anyway.

The "No" side should paint the picture for the people of Ireland of what they think we will gain by a "No" vote, not nitpick what we think we will gain by voting "Yes". They engage in this constant diatribe about having a veto over the ESM treaty but why in God's name would anyone vote "No"? I will bring the "No" camp into the democratic world and show them how things are done by consensus. They are not done by bullying. They might have done that for the past 30 years but we do things in a democratic state by consensus.

Another mention of God.

We bring people with us, explain and debate so I encourage the "No" side to engage in that instead of in half-truths and misquotes. Let us have a proper debate over the next few weeks and paint the real picture of what Ireland will be like when we have a "Yes" vote or if we have a "No" vote.

The Taoiseach has been asked a range of questions and we are in his hands on the timing, he has as long as he needs.

I am due to make a jobs announcement in the city soon so I will deal with the points raised by members. I should have said to Mr. Murphy that when the campaign kicks off officially, any ministerial speeches on the website will be taken down because the campaign is then strictly factual and information-based.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

So until then it is not strictly factual?

When the campaign begins officially everything is factual.

I agree with Deputy Kyne that a "Yes" vote will send a strong and positive message and that it will protect our currency and instil confidence. I recognise the points made by the different groups he mentioned. I know his constituency and his expertise in the area and the agriculture sector is clearly positive in its approach to this referendum given the changed circumstances that have applied in the sector for some time and recognising the scale of the challenges that lie ahead, with reform of the CAP and other issues that will form part of Ireland's EU Presidency next year.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn was not here last week.

Our colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty's father died, which explains our absence and I am sorry that the Taoiseach raised that.

I understand that and I tender my sympathy to the Doherty family but the party could have sent someone in Deputy Mac Lochlainn's place; this is an important element of the "No" campaign.

The finance spokesman of the committee would normally attend so perhaps we should leave that aside.

The spokesman was perfectly understandably unavoidably absent but it was well within the compass of Sinn Féin to send another representative here to continue the same litany. The party chose not to do that and chose not to object on Friday when the Votes were passed for the Estimate for the provision of money to the independent Referendum Commission and for factual information. That is a black mark against Sinn Féin. The party slipped up badly when it should have been here.

That is not an answer to my question. Perhaps the Taoiseach might answer the question I asked him.

I just wanted that to be noted. When the Deputy speaks of the truth, and nothing but the truth, this is the Sinn Féin document.

I asked the Taoiseach a straight question and I want him to answer it.

Let the Taoiseach reply.

The Taoiseach's colleague had a good go at that.

Is the ordinary person who gets this leaflet from Sinn Féin through the door-----

The economic analysis of economists, yes.

The Deputy talks about the truth and on the back of the leaflet, Sinn Féin quotes three experts but chose to be very selective. As Deputy Donohoe pointed out in filleting the Sinn Féin leader of the "No" campaign-----

Perhaps the Taoiseach will give an answer to the question.

-----this was not the truth, it was an utter distortion of the facts.

This is not Leaders' Questions. Can we get an answer to the question?

The leaflet mentions Spain, Holland and France. This is the first time I have heard the Sinn Féin Party put forward the view that we should be dictated to by other people in other countries. This is our business and our decision; this is for our people.

So the Taoiseach is no longer a European?

Now not only does the Sinn Féin Party representative want to have censorship applied to prevent the Government from giving factual information to the people, it puts forward the view that we should be subject to the views of other countries. This is our decision in our way. Deputy Pádraig MacLochlainn expressed the view on the ESM, on which I have already replied to Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP. Let us examine what the Deputy is talking about. He expressed the view that we should veto the ESM, but that would cut off our lifeline to money if we ever needed it in the future. As he knows, there is €150 billion in liquidity in the Irish system from the ECB. The treaty states clearly that countries which ratify the treaty will have access to the ESM if they ever need it. Countries that do not ratify it will not have that access. The proposition from Sinn Féin is that it is not necessary to have contact with the ESM and that a country can obtain further funding from the EFSF.

That is not what we say. Will I put the question again?

The Deputy says we can get it from the EFSF.

Will we renegotiate the ESM treaty?

Deputy, we might have time for further questions.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and the Sinn Féin Party put forward the proposition that we should reject the treaty-----

No, that we should renegotiate.

-----and say to other countries: "We will not put our house in order but we want you to go back to your parliaments to ask them to give us further moneys and put yourselves in further debt in recognition of our proposition that we should reject this treaty." This is absolute nonsense and economic lunacy of the worst type.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

Why did the Government accept the insertion of the blackmail clause? Why did it not oppose it? That was my question.

I am absolutely astounded that the Sinn Féin Party would put forward the proposition that we are not able to make up our own minds in matters such as this.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

Why did the Government accept the insertion of the blackmail clause?

Therefore, the Taoiseach's answer is "No".

In reply to Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, the ESM can be established without prior amendment of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. That is clearly agreed by all the European partners. There is no debate on this issue because there is no lack of legal clarity on the matter. For the last time, the ESM can be established without Article 136.

Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP

How is the ESM amended?

This is about our national decision.

In response to Senator Kathryn Reilly, I do not intend to get into the argument about what candidates say or what newspapers report they say in the middle of a French presidential election. In general, however, I strongly favour the development of the growth, investment and jobs agenda in Europe. It is something we have strongly supported with a number of countries at the European Council for the last number of months. I am glad it is now a central part of the agenda. In fact, the Commission responded very strongly to the second last leaders' meeting by stating something must be done about every country above the European average of 29% youth unemployment. President Barroso came here with his officials to see how we should harness our resources better, if that is possible, to work with young people and provide opportunities for them. That informal consultation took place with countries throughout the eurozone and Europe in which youth unemployment is a particular problem. We will continue to work on that issue. There will be a report from the Commission before the Council at its next meeting. I welcome the initiative it has taken in this regard.

Monsieur Hollande said tighter budgetary rules should be written into national law. We do not wish to include that level of detail in the Constitution. The Minister for Finance will publish the outlines of the fiscal responsibility Bill which will explain how that will be done in our law.

With regard to what is happening for small businesses and so forth, the Government, in respect of its national responsibilities, has its action plan for jobs. It contains 270 propositions and the first quarterly report was published last week. I oversee it with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the pressure is on Ministers to deliver in respect of the agencies under the auspices of and their responsibilities in their Departments to open up opportunities for business in order that small businesses can do their work. Senator Kathryn Reilly will be aware that the Government did not increase income tax because we do not wish to put further taxes on jobs or employment. We reduced PRSI in the hospitality sector which helped to maintain and create 6,000 jobs last year. That will continue. We have published the legislation for the partial loan credit guarantee for access to credit for business, which is critical. Work is practically finalised on the micro finance agency which will provide opportunities for very small operators.

In addition, the Economic Management Council, EMC, has direct contact with the banks on a regular basis to deal not only with distressed mortgages and relieve that pressure but also to ensure mentoring takes place in businesses where it is necessary to provide cash flow projections in order that loans can be granted in the first place. I accept Senator Mary White's view in this respect. I brought representatives of 90 companies to China on my recent visit following the invitation from the Chinese Government and oversaw the signature of €35 million worth of contracts for small Irish companies which wish to export. As the Senator is aware, Irish companies now employ over 80,000 people across 50 states in the United States. Both on the American side, in terms of the multinationals, and for small businesses here, there are opportunities for us, but we will not have them to the extent we would wish for if we do not continue to have the big technology and investment. It is due to these major firms that many smaller niche firms in Ireland can invest and compete to supply what they require and that means jobs for young people here.

The Senator also mentioned what the European Union needed to do and I share that view. The Union has been in existence for a long time, but the Single Market is not complete and the single patent and digital markets have not been dealt with. The Union has a population of 500 million and there is a population of 600 million on the periphery of Europe, stretching into north Africa where some countries are growing at rates of 5% and 6% a year. These are all opportunities. On foot of the Lisbon treaty we have set up the structures we need. It might interest the Senator to know that the European Parliament voted overwhelmingly for all the protocols last week. That is the last hurdle in confirming the position beyond all doubt where the corporation tax rate is concerned.

What did the Taoiseach say about corporation tax?

Before the second referendum on the Lisbon treaty, protocols were attached to the treaty in respect of a number of issues on which Ireland wanted extra confirmation. All of these were voted through by the European Parliament last week. It is very important in giving extra certainty to people who might have an issue about them. These protocols have gone through without referendums in other countries.

This treaty is part of a wider agenda-----

I apologise for interrupting, but what I was saying was that for the next 34 days all the talk would be about continuing austerity. We all know we are in the middle of an austerity programme and the clear message from the "No" side is that this means more austerity. What specific commitments can we give to the people on accelerated Irish and EU recovery? The word "austerity" is being bandied about all the time. There must be a specific marketing message to counterbalance it. Does the Taoiseach know what I mean?

I do. The first article of the treaty refers to stability, growth, investment, jobs and opportunities. That is the central principle involved. However, it is about good housekeeping and tighter budgetary discipline-----

-----and provididng for this in national legislation. One big message is that if one ratifies the treaty, one has access to the ESM. We are involved in a programme until the end of 2013 and have signed off with the troika on what we will do up to 2015. We are very clear about the path ahead. My genuine belief is that when the Government continues to work with the people in taking the difficult decisions that must be taken to sort out our problems, the growth factor and the investment that will result from it will do wonders for the country in the time ahead. That will deal to a great extent with what happens in the years beyond 2015. That is why it is necessary for the Government not to lose focus on what we must do to rectify our problems. Marketing the message for the future is important. We will set that out in the best way we can.

Those who put forward the proposition that we should reject this treaty must realise if we say "No", we say "No" to certainty, opportunity for further investment and confidence. We know opportunity exists and we should not do anything to damage the country's reputation or access to that in the time ahead.

It is also fair to say Europe is talking about additional measures, such as common rules for regulating banks, dealing with bank failures, increasing supports and back-ups for the protection of countries that pursue sound economic policies and supporting countries that suffer from economic shocks. When I sit around the table with the 26 other leaders, and have the privilege of so doing, and they speak of their own countries, they all have particular problems. A country may have a AAA rating but, as happened in the Netherlands, the government majority may be very small. Pressure on politicians or on political parties may be decisive in whether to support the treaty. It is a matter for the government and people of a country to deal with the matter. Leaders have different views about what we should do to have a competitiveness league. Why can we not finalise the details of the Single Market to allow all these opportunities to flourish? In the context of the global economy, the European Union must continue to work in these areas.

Europe is also looking at the specific risks that could cause economic downturn in any of these countries. We have our own challenges at home. The Government and the people will deal with those. The people must make the decision on 31 May to authorise the ratification of the treaty. It is infinitely in our country's interest to send a resounding message around the world about that. It will also mean, during Ireland's Presidency and for future negotiations within Europe, that we are the only people who were asked, by way of the ballot box, to give that authorisation. Sending out that message increases Ireland's credibility and leadership in a European sense.

Deputy Regina Doherty raised the issue of the protection of jobs, which is very important. A "Yes" vote will reinforce our confidence, stability and reputation so that people will continue to invest in this country. Over the course of the next month, I hope to continue to demonstrate that people in the wider world are looking at this country and want to make decisions to continue to invest here. Under no circumstances should we do anything to damage that. I note the comments of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions about this. The importance of access to the ESM is fundamental for continued confidence, stability, growth and investment in Ireland. For my part, as a citizen, leader of a party and Taoiseach, I will be happy to explain to our people at every opportunity the importance of doing this.

Despite our differences, I thank Deputy Mac Lochlainn and Mr. Paul Murphy, MEP, for their contributions. This is a democratic process. They are entitled to their viewpoints. At the end of the day it will be a matter for the Irish people to make up their own minds about the treaty. I am proud to lead the campaign asking them to ratify it and to send that message around the world.

I thank the Taoiseach for his attendance today. On behalf of the sub-committee, I thank him for the time he has taken to present to us and to answer our questions.

The sub-committee will resume at 11.30 a.m. when Mr. Jonas Sjöstedt, a member of the Swedish Parliament will address the sub-committee.

Sitting suspended at 11.05 a.m. and resumed at 11.40 a.m.
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