JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN UNION AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 3 Jul 2012

Roma Experience of Racism in the EU: Discussion with Pavee Point

Vice Chairman

I welcome the delegation from Pavee Point, including Ms Ronnie Fay, director, Ms Monika Makulova and Ms Siobhan Curran. Members will be aware that Pavee Point is a voluntary organisation committed to the attainment of human rights for Irish Travellers. It also works directly with the Roma community. There are approximately 36,000 Travellers and 3,000 Roma in Ireland. The Roma people are the largest ethnic minority group in Europe, with an estimated population of from 10 million to 12 million. The focus of today's presentation is the Roma experience of racism and discrimination in Europe and potential opportunities to address such issues. In particular, Pavee Point feels the discussion of these issues is relevant to the committee, given the European Commission's direction to member states to develop Roma integration strategies as per the document and EU framework for national Roma integration strategies up to 2020.

Before we begin I will read the notice on privilege for our guests. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I am sure this notice will not apply to witnesses today, but the time we do not give notice will be the time it is needed. I welcome the witnesses and invite them to make their opening statements to the committee.

Ms Ronnie Fay

My name is Ronnie Fay and I am the director of the Pavee Point Travellers Centre. As members are probably aware, for the past 12 years we have been working directly with the Roma community in Ireland. Today is a historic day for the Oireachtas, not only because of the attendance of the Grand Secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland in the Seanad, but because this, I suspect, is the first time a Roma woman has addressed the Oireachtas. This is a significant day and we are delighted to have the opportunity to be heard here.

We would also like to acknowledge the previous work the committee has done on the Roma community. Senator Leyden produced a report some years ago for the committee when it was chaired by Deputy Durkan and the issues he identified then are still relevant and need to be addressed. I will give members an overview of how we will proceed today. We will talk about the national Traveller-Roma integration strategy, which the European Union has asked every state to develop. The Union gave notice of this in May 2011 and set out criteria for how it should be developed. There were two key criteria. First was engagement with civil society and second was direct engagement with Travellers and Roma. Our view is that the Government has not implemented either of the two core criteria, which is disappointing. My colleague, Monika Makulova, will talk about the experiences of Roma living in Ireland and my other colleague, Siobhan Curran will speak more directly on the content of the Roma integration strategy. I will hand over to my colleagues now.

Ms Monika Makulova

I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to speak here. I am the first Roma woman to come before the committee to speak about the Roma people. I wish to speak about the difficulties, discrimination and racism the Roma face in Ireland. The most difficult problem for the Roma is the habitual residence condition, because without fulfilling the conditions for residency, Roma people have no access to health care or child benefit and their living conditions are very poor. Those seeking work cannot find jobs because of the need for work permits. Even Roma people who do not need work permits find it difficult to get jobs, because when Irish people find out they are Roma, they do not have a good chance of getting the work. It is difficult for the members of this committee to understand the difficulties. Even for people with jobs, the situation is difficult, as they often only got the job because they have hidden their identity. I hid my identity here for 12 years. However, since I got my job in Pavee Point, I have stopped hiding and am now proud of who I am.

There is no strategy here for the Roma, although the European Commission has asked Ireland to include the Roma. We have many talented Roma people in Ireland, but they must be included and given a chance. They are talented human beings and deserve a chance. Thank you.

Ms Siobhan Curran

I will outline briefly the national Traveller-Roma integration strategy as it stands, the gaps we see in it and some of the recommendations for change. I will also outline the recommendations we have for this committee.

We saw the EU framework document as a huge opportunity. It is commendable that the Commission has taken on the job of driving an integrated and co-ordinated Roma policy to address the widespread discrimination Roma people face throughout the European Union. In the original framework document, the Commission has stated that the member state strategies must outline key targets in four areas - health, education, accommodation and employment. Along with the targets, they must have clear funding streams so that the targets can be implemented. The Commission has also stated that in the case of Ireland, both Roma and Travellers must be key in the design and implementation of the strategy. Therefore, they must be involved in its development and implementation.

The Commission speaks of the common basic principles and Roma inclusion and stresses the principles of active participation and gender equality and the need to use evidence-based policies. Therefore, each strategy must ensure that these factors are taken into account. The Government submitted its Irish national Traveller-Roma integration strategy to the EU Commission in January of this year. While we acknowledge the work put into developing the strategy, there are significant gaps in it and that it contravenes the Commission's explicit instructions on what a strategy should contain. The document itself sets out the strategies that are already in place for Travellers in Ireland. It does not address the gaps in these policies or their lack of implementation. In a sense then, it is a paper exercise. As there is a lack of policy relating to Roma in Ireland, this group is excluded from the document. There are some cursory references to Roma but there is nothing approaching a strategy.

The document does not contain goals, targets, indicators, timeframes or monitoring and evaluation mechanisms and therefore lacks teeth. It does not have sufficient substance. There was no meaningful consultation or facilitation of active participation of Travellers or Roma in the development of the document.

The European Commission has assessed the strategy documents from all member states and has found them to be unsatisfactory, across the board. There are enormous problems with them, which is disappointing and represents a lost opportunity. The European Roma Policy Coalition, commenting on the matter, has stated:

The European Commission's assessment of the strategies reveals many of them to be so deeply flawed that they cannot even be regarded as a first step forward. They reflect a complete lack of political will. Such complacency is neither acceptable nor sustainable.

We would endorse that statement. However, in the Irish context, we do regard the document as a starting point.

We recommend that the relevant stakeholders, namely, the Department, Pavee Point and other civil society organisations, Roma and Travellers work together to revise the document and bring it up to the standard set by the EU Commission. That means that we set achievable goals and targets with clearly defined funding streams alongside the targets as well as strong monitoring and evaluation mechanisms. It would be good to have a monitoring and evaluation mechanism that allows for elected representatives to be part of the process. Strong accountability is also very important.

We believe it is a time to be ambitious as a country. Ireland will assume the EU presidency shortly and we must show leadership in the EU arena. We are set up to produce a really good strategy. We have a network of Traveller organisations across the country. Pavee Point and other organisations have links with Roma communities. We can create a really inclusive, progressive strategy that could be a model of good practice. Unfortunately, we are not there yet but Pavee Point is certainly on board in terms of improving the document.

We request that this committee conducts an inquiry into the development of the national Traveller-Roma integration strategy and that the Department of Justice and Equality makes a presentation on its approach to developing the strategy. We also request that this committee commissions research into the situation of Roma in Ireland in the context of EU migration. It was good to see in the committee's last report, the level of work that went into establishing the issues facing Roma. That report also noted the lack of reliable statistics and documentation on Roma in Ireland, which is still the case. Senator Leyden has pointed out that we do not even have a good sense of how many members of the Roma community are in Ireland. It is difficult to design policy if we do not even know how many Roma are here and where they are. It would be a positive development for this committee to push this issue forward.

We also request that a committee member makes a proposal for a motion stating that this issue be placed on the Order of Business in both Houses of the Oireachtas in order to widen the discussion and to make Members of both Houses aware of the issues.

As part of Ireland's EU Presidency, we ask that this committee highlight Roma issues and makes them a priority. As an organisation, Pavee Point has good links with civil society organisations throughout Europe so if committee members are interested in conducting country visits to get a sense of the situation for Roma throughout the EU, we would be more than happy to facilitate that.

I thank the committee for its time and welcome any questions members may have.

Vice Chairman

I thank Ms Curran, Ms Fay and Ms Makulova for their presentations. I invite my colleagues to contribute now, beginning with Senator Leyden.

Senator Terry Leyden

I welcome the delegation and thank them for mentioning the report I prepared. The Roma community is a misunderstood group. I would certainly separate it from the Traveller community because Traveller integration is working very well and has done for some time. The Roma situation is completely different. There are roughly 10 million Roma in Europe and it is the most discriminated against group in the world. Many people do not realise that the Roma are not Romanians but have a separate identity. As far as I know, they were originally an Indian tribe that came into Europe. Unfortunately, they have no country to call home. They are spread all over Europe.

The reaction which greeted the report I prepared was worse than anything I ever experienced. The then Chairman of the European affairs committee, Deputy Bernard Durkan, approved and published the report and without his backing and support, it would never have been published. I was inundated with abusive e-mails. I never got such abuse in my life. It really would open one's eyes to see the reaction. Everything bad that happens is blamed on the Roma. When crimes are committed, it is assumed the perpetrators are Roma, not Romanian, Bulgarian or any other nationality.

Some countries in Europe are doing an excellent job in terms of integration and the provision of education. Education is vital for the young people.

I am glad to see a representative of the Roma community here because she can project a positive image and provide leadership in her community. It is vitally important that the Roma community plays ball with the authorities. Members of the community should be given proper medical care and the issue of the provision of medical cards should be resolved. The majority of the Roma would need medical cards, particularly young mothers. In terms of integration, education is vital. I recognise that Pavee Point is doing its best but am afraid it has an uphill battle on its hands.

Vice Chairman

Deputy Bernard Durkan is next.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Senator Leyden was much too modest in his references to his report because he was very enthused at the time of its preparation. We all have an obligation to resist and stamp out racism in any shape or form at any time and in any place. There is no excuse for it. Once we begin to make excuses for racism or discrimination, we are losing the battle because we have succumbed to the temptation to attempt to assuage the views of people who may not be as accommodating as they should be. European history should be sufficient to inform us, if we need to be informed, that where discrimination and racism was allowed to progress, the consequences were not very helpful or hopeful.

This is a time of great economic difficulty for the Roma and Traveller communities and for ordinary citizens of all nationalities and origins. Life is particularly difficult for ethnic groups and the points raised by the delegation regarding the habitual residency clause and other social welfare regulations are particularly relevant. However, we have serious economic and budgetary difficulties and it is difficult to reconcile everything.

Senator Terry Leyden mentioned the Traveller community. Generally experiences with the Traveller community are very good but there have been a few bad experiences and they are the ones we have to address if we are to make the step for total integration, which ultimately should be the case. We will then have to get over the issues that have arisen in respect of friction in the community on the part of the settled community and on the part of the Travellers where difficulties remain. We have had experiences in my constituency recently where people became frightened because they do not understand the nuances of what is happening around them with tribalism, parochialism, the usual bitterness, feuds and so on. Both communities, the settled community and the Traveller community, need to spend more time addressing those issues, otherwise a degree of antipathy builds up. It is much easier for that to happen in times of economic stress than at any other time. There is a huge need right now to deal with those issues. In respect of the experiences in my constituency, the members of the Traveller community who have settled successfully make excellent citizens and do not want to be associated with any of the issues to which I have referred and it causes great stress for them. They have been anxious to come forward and make that point.

This is a discussion document on the integration document which has gone to the European Commission. It is a good discussion point, from our point of view and for our colleagues throughout Europe. This is not just one country's problem, it is a problem which affects everybody across Europe. I hope we learn some lessons as we go along, the need for tolerance, the need to ensure that because of a lack of tolerance and acceptability, that we do not have exploitation, trafficking or abuse arising from exploitation or ignorance or any of the things that go with that. We have much to learn as a community, not only in Ireland but across the EU.

Deputy John Halligan

I congratulate Pavee Point on its work, having met the representatives on a number of occasions in Waterford. As mayor of Waterford I chaired the Traveller accommodation committee for many years at a very difficult time during the famous feuds there and am aware of how difficult it can be. I understand the apathy of the settled community in general towards Travellers, much of which is misguided. I am also a member of Amnesty International Ireland.

In regard to the specific topic, the Roma community, it would be interesting to know the geographical spread throughout the country as we are not sure how many are in various areas. The reason I ask that question is that the legislation required that local authorities set up Traveller accommodation committees which were representative of all parties and included the Traveller community. A way forward may be to have the Roma community represented on those committees. In that way one could get a detailed and simplistic view of what is happening in particular areas. I am not sure if there are many Roma travellers in Waterford city and county. If there are significant problems in respect of marginalisation and racism, which there are, local authorities which are at the coalface are best placed to be aware of them. Perhaps in the near future it would be possible to ascertain the geographical spread of these people and to contact the local authorities and the Traveller accommodation committees. In spite of all the difficulties, some councillors did not want to chair the committees, they do very good work. They are on the ground with Travellers and diverse groups in particular areas throughout the country.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome the representatives of Pavee Point to the committee and thank it for its presentation. Its report, which has been circulated, mentioned widespread discrimination in Europe and mass deportations. Are those countries part of the EU or part of the broader Europe? In regard to the report sent to the EU Commission, the representative said there was no meaningful consultation? Why type of consultation took place? Even local authorities provide draft documents and discussion documents and liaise with groups when formulating a consultative paper with groups, such as the witnesses, and depending on the issue, with any other representative group. What is the relationship between Irish Travellers and the Roma community? Is there experience of discrimination among Irish Travellers in terms of their views of the Roma community?

Vice Chairman

Perhaps I will make a few points. In regard to the suggestions made by the witness, given that this is the first time many Members will have heard them, we will note them and refer back to the witnesses. One question on which we will have to get guidance is that some of the issues may more appropriately sit with another Oireachtas committee. We will come back to the witnesses on the suggestions made.

I have many dealings either directly with the Roma community or with people who live near them or live in communities within which they are located, because my constituency is based around the city centre of Dublin. They are a visible element within the local community and, unfortunately, more often than not, arouse a negative response due to difficulties that are sometimes attributed to them. From a practical point of view if I am dealing with people whom I believe are being exploited, what is the best course of action open to me for dealing with such a matter, apart from the normal course of action of going to the Garda or, to phrase it differently, what should I do alongside raising the matter with the Garda?

Ms Ronnie Fay

Perhaps I will take some of the overarching questions. We in Pavee Point saw the framework as a wonderful opportunity for the State. The reason the European framework for Roma integration came about was that there was an acknowledgement, as Deputy Durkan has said, of a problem throughout the EU in respect of Roma and Travellers. It was meant to shape Government policy throughout the EU and to be an opportunity where EU funding would be available to pilot initiatives or develop services. We were very positive in engaging with the framework.

The EU published the framework in May 2011 and each state was invited to submit an action plan by December 2012. Pavee Point heard about it in June and forwarded a comprehensive written submission to the Department of Justice and Equality. We asked to meet the high level officials' group on Travellers, because it is the group within Ireland that is overseeing the development of the strategy. We made a presentation last September but nothing more happened. Finally, on the first Friday in December, we received a draft and were called to a meeting of national Traveller organisations for a consultation on the following Monday. We went to the meeting but we made it clear that it was not a consultation and was totally at odds with the principles that were intended to shape the development of the strategy.

In our submission, we included much of what Deputy Halligan has said. Travellers and Roma are seen as integrated by the United Nations, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, the Council of Europe, the European Union and other bodies. They should be integrated into the policy framework in Ireland. One of our proposals was that the remit of the Traveller inter-agency groups be extended to include Roma. At present, the Roma are neither in the Traveller policy framework nor in the refugee, asylum seeker and migrant policy framework. They are falling between stools. We saw this as an opportunity to give greater focus, to have a driver and to achieve positive outcomes. We are disappointed that a very pedestrian approach has been taken by the State.

We asked for a review of existing Traveller policies. I would not like anyone to think Traveller issues are well dealt with in Ireland. We have much to be positive about and proud of but we have seen the dismantling of education services. Senator Leyden spoke about education. We have lost visiting teachers and resource teachers for Travellers, and the school transport service. There have been huge cutbacks at a time when Travellers were beginning to make transitions, even to third level education. The census figures show that two thirds of Travellers still leave school by 15 years of age, which is similar to the situation of Roma throughout the European Union. More than 70% of Travellers are unemployed. This is unacceptable. The all-Ireland Traveller health study which was published in September 2010 shows that the gap between the health status of Travellers and the general population has widened. Traveller men are now dying 15 years sooner than settled men. Traveller infant mortality rates are three and a half times the national average. These statistics are similar to those for Roma throughout the European Union.

I would not like people to think we have solved all Traveller issues in Ireland. We are a long way from that. This is an opportunity, however, to integrate the issues, bring political leadership and create a momentum to achieve outcomes. In Ireland, we tend to publish strategies and think the job is done. There is a big gap between having a plan and implementing it. That is where the energy needs to go.

Traveller and Roma services should be integrated. Traveller organisations are trying to work in solidarity with Roma. This is different from some other EU countries where indigenous Traveller, or Roma, populations are hostile to migrants, try to keep them out and hold on to what they have. We, on the other hand, have tried to work in solidarity. That was seen at the time of the M50 roundabout encampment in 2007. We have consistently said this is a European issue and there must be a European solution. This was, potentially, a European solution. We are saying the State has not grasped it in the way it might have done. We do not want to go to Europe and criticise Ireland. Much positive work has been done in Ireland. Let us celebrate that and use it to inform practice in other countries.

Members asked where Roma are. We do not know. We suggested doing a Roma census. It would have to be done under a human rights framework, data protection and the law. We do not want bad practice or to have it used to target and deport Roma. We acknowledge the need for data. We have been looking for disaggregated data and an ethnic identifier for Travellers. This is not only needed for Travellers. Everyone should identify his or her ethnicity so we know who is and is not getting service and how we can change things.

The committee report referred to the explicit form of racism experienced by Travellers and Roma. Our concern is that Travellers and Roma are not included in the ministry of integration, which is looking at racism. We do not shape or inform integration policy. We seek a new national action plan against racism, and for Travellers and Roma to be included in it.

Ms Siobhan Curran

Senator Leyden noted the need for a response to the issue of medical cards for Roma. One of the most pervasive and devastating issues is people's inability to access basic medical care. If there is an impetus to address the issue of availability of medical cards and access to medical care that is very positive.

Deputy Kyne asked about deportations. The most significant have been in Italy and France, and people in power in those countries have gained political currency from them. Deportations from countries to which people migrate is an issue. Forced evictions throughout Europe is also a critical issue. With Amnesty International, we held an event during Traveller Pride week where a speaker from Romania spoke about forced evictions in that country. There has been blatant disregard for human rights commitments in Romania. Amnesty International is vocal about it. This is happening throughout Europe and not only in Romania. It is happening in countries throughout eastern and central Europe. It needs to be addressed. We must also acknowledge that these are the areas people have come from when they arrive in Ireland. We need to acknowledge that context. As Deputy Kyne said, this disregard for human rights is EU-wide and needs to be addressed from an EU perspective.

This is why the national strategies offer such an opportunity. We have progressed to the point where the Commission has developed a framework document and where all member states have committed to developing these documents. We acknowledge that. However, what a wasted opportunity it would be if we do not create quality documents. When we reach 2020, will we shake our heads and wonder why Roma face such discrimination and why so many issues face them? This is where we can act. We are on board and willing to facilitate anything that needs to be done.

We acknowledge the committee's undertaking to consider the actions we have proposed. If the committee needs clarification of those actions we will be happy to provide it. It would help if the committee could commission research on the geographical spread of Roma. That would be a starting point. We cannot get to grips with the issues until we know exactly where people are and what their needs are.

Ms Monika Makulova

I wish to add something about Travellers and Roma. There is no difference between Travellers and Roma. They communicate very well with each other. Travellers face discrimination in the same way as Roma. They can be recognised as Roma can. I look like Roma. In my experience, when I wear trousers I am okay, but when I put a skirt on I am the original Roma and I am taken in a bad way. How many Roma have hidden their identity? If a Roma woman wears trousers she has a better than 50% chance of getting a job and will be communicated with more respectfully. I am talking about the Roma people who dress more traditionally.

I want to add a point about education. I have been dealing with a Roma family whose daughter was doing well until she reached the age of 14. The health centre at St. Peter's Church assisted the family and the daughter went her to a school where she did not need to wear a uniform or pay for books. The family want her to send her to secondary school in order that she can have a better chance in life but her mother has no money to pay for her to go to a private school. I do not know which secondary school is free. I understand all the schools are private. That girl will not have a chance to get into any of those schools.

Chairman

Does Ms Fay want to add anything further?

Ms Ronnie Fay

We welcome this opportunity. We are willing to debate the issues. We know that not all members of the Roma community are saints in the same way that not all Travellers or politicians are saints. There is good and bad in every community. What we have to do is to get the good working to best effect and in partnership. We are saying to the State that we are ready, willing and able to engage. We see this as positive opportunity and we want to engage but we are not being let do so. Instead of having a win-win situation, we will end up having a conflict situation. The losers at the end of the day are the Travellers and the Roma community. There is the potential to get European funds but we will not get them if we do not meet the criteria and we are not meeting the criteria.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. As I indicated, we will correspond with them and respond to their suggestions, via the clerk to the committee. We will now go into private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.50 p.m. and adjourned at 3.10 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12 July 2012.