Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Thursday, 13 Feb 2014

Experience of the Irish Delegation to the Committee of the Regions

Chairman

The committee is in public session. I remind everyone to turn off mobile telephones, particularly the Senators using them, as they will interfere with the recording equipment. Putting them on silent is not good enough. We have received apologies from Deputy Crowe.

The first item on today's agenda is an exchange of views with the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions. On behalf of our committee, I welcome the delegation's members. We are joined by Councillor Patrick McGowan, the delegation's head, Councillor Constance Hanniffy, Councillor Des Hurley, Councillor Declan McDonnell, Councillor John Sheahan, Councillor Fiona O'Loughlin and Councillor Paul O'Donoghue. We are delighted also to be joined by Mr. John Crowley of the delegation's secretariat.

The Committee of the Regions represents local and regional government in EU policy formulation. An advisory body, it was established in 1994 to ensure that the public authorities closest to the citizen, those being, local and regional authorities, were consulted on EU policies of direct interest to them. Today's meeting is an opportunity for us to gain a greater understanding of the work the committee is engaged in and what the delegation contributes in Europe on Ireland's behalf.

Before we begin, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way that he, she or it could be identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are asked to respect the practice that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Councillor Patrick McGowan, the head of the delegation, to make his opening remarks.

Councillor Patrick McGowan

I thank the committee for inviting us to this meeting. My name is Patrick McGowan. I am the head of the Irish delegation and represent the north west. I will share my presentation with a number of my colleagues, Councillors McDonnell, Hanniffy and O'Donoghue.

The Committee of the Regions was established in 1994 to represent local and regional government in the EU decision-making process. In April, it will celebrate its 20th anniversary. Over the years, its status and powers have been enhanced by successive EU treaties. As an advisory body composed of elected representatives, the committee provides other EU institutions with a view and experiences of local and regional levels of government. Under the Lisbon treaty, the Committee of the Regions is limited to 350 members from the 28 EU member states, with an equal number of alternative members. The committee's mandate is set at five years. The current term will continue to the beginning of 2015.

The Committee of the Regions presents its views as detailed written opinions in response to legislative and other proposals from the European Commission or requests from the Council and Parliament. However, the committee can also issue opinions and resolutions on its own initiative. Annually, the Committee of the Regions adopts approximately 70 opinions across a range of EU policy issues, such as economics, social policy, territorial cohesion, education and training, transport, environment, energy, agriculture, etc. It encompasses most major issues. Once adopted, opinions are forwarded to the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and other interested parties for consideration at the decision-making stages.

The wide range of opinion is indicative of the range of competences of the EU and the increasing demands on the committee's members. While the committee's opinions are advisory and non-binding, it is usually the first to respond to a Commission proposal and, as such, our opinions highlight particular issues and influence the debate in other institutions. Members of the Commission and the European Parliament and representatives of the European Presidency participate in Committee of the Regions meetings, approximately 90% of which are held in Brussels.

My colleague, Councillor McDonnell, will say a few words about the work of the Irish delegation.

Councillor Declan McDonnell

While membership of the Committee of the Regions is determined by the member states, the committee increasingly works within political groups, mirroring the European Parliament. There are five political groups in the committee, with Irish members represented in four. Nevertheless, the Irish delegation generally works in a unified and co-ordinated manner to represent the interests of the Irish local government sector and to promote and defend national interests.

Across the EU, a significant amount of legislation is implemented at local or regional level. In Ireland, this mainly involves environmental issues, with legislation such as that on habitats, water quality, environmental impact assessments, energy efficiency, landfills and recycling, but also issues of procurement policy, health and safety, working hours, payments and so on. These are just some of the issues affecting Irish local and regional authorities. However, local and regional government in Ireland is responsible for a limited range of functions compared with other member states. Quite a number of the European Commission's policy proposals may not be directly relevant, such as fiscal issues and the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, but we defend national interests in such discussions.

Compared with our colleagues from other member states, we operate within a number of constraints. The lack of a well resourced, policy-focused national association of local government places us at a disadvantage. Colleagues from other member states often benefit from such associations' well developed positions on key policy initiatives.

At local level it was a concern that there seemed to be either a widespread lack of awareness or of interest in the EU policy-making process. This may be because there is a lack of structural engagement as, apart from members of the Committee of the Regions and aside from implementing some EU-funded projects, local government is rarely consulted on or informed of relevant EU developments. These are issues that may need to be addressed by local government in the first instance but could also be addressed by the Government, the Oireachtas and possibly by this committee in its report on Ireland and the future of the EU. Despite the structural weakness, as members of the Committee of the Regions, we have the support of a delegation secretary with one officer in Dublin and one in Brussels and we also receive some support from our local and regional authorities and regional assemblies. As members will know, these regional entities are scheduled for reorganisation as part of the current local government reform process and this may provide an opportunity to examine these issues in the round.

We maintain contacts with the Irish permanent representation in Brussels and that is extremely useful for getting a steer on key Irish interests. We are anxious that this direct link be maintained and enhanced because, as Irish representatives in Brussels, we rely on timely, insightful briefings and information. Within our political groups we also have direct links with our colleagues in the European Parliament. Since its inception, the Irish delegation has been very active and for its size has a high profile within the Committee of the Regions.

I will give some examples of our recent work. I was Committee of the Regions rapporteur on volunteering on two occasions and other members have recently acted as rapporteurs on issues such as the small business Act, skills and education, maritime spatial planning, the strategy for the Atlantic area, shale gas and oil exploration, health inequalities, energy efficiency, the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund, the research framework programmes, biomass, new skills in jobs and less bureaucracy for citizens, among others. As one member acts as rapporteur on behalf of the committee in preparing each opinion, rapporteurs have an individual role as it is they who are responsible for consulting stakeholders, for drafting the Committee of the Regions response, and for steering the document through committee and plenary stages. Once opinions are adopted, rapporteurs promote them both within the EU institutional framework and more widely.

There was a strong sense of national purpose in EU matters around the Irish Presidency of the European Council. However, we believe it is important that Irish representation in Europe at all levels continue to bring a strong and coherent message to best represent Irish interests in shaping EU policy. I very much welcome the enhanced engagement of our Ministers with the European Parliament which has been developed recently.

Councillor Hanniffy will update the committee on some of the key themes of Committee of the Regions' current work.

Councillor Constance Hanniffy

I will deal with some of the key themes of the work we undertake as members of the Committee of the Regions. Since it was established in 1994, the committee has continued to evolve and strengthen its position in the various treaty revisions that took place and it also sought to broaden its remit beyond the purely advisory function which was originally provided for in the treaty. As well as adopting opinions as an advisory body, we have been extending our influence as a political assembly and as a facilitator and we are establishing platforms to facilitate the involvement of local and regional government and authorities in discussions on key EU policy areas.

One such policy area is the Europe 2020 strategy - subsidiary and cross-border co-operation. On the Europe 2020 strategy, the Committee of the Regions is active in monitoring its implementation, which is central to virtually all the EU programmes and policies with which we are dealing up to the year 2020. In its mid-term review of the Europe 2020 strategy, the Committee of the Regions, indicated that it will advance a number of proposals on how to make the strategy more effective, how to better use EU funding resources, how to improve governance and how to improve implementation arrangements. Many of these points are relevant to us in Ireland as participants in the European semester process, which includes the national reform programmes, or NRPs, as we refer to them. They set out our national targets and measures to achieve the strategy's headline targets. In Brussels our discussions, as members of the Committee of the Regions, are dominated by the Europe 2020 strategy and the European semester. However, it is fair to say there is limited discussion of these issues in Ireland either nationally or locally. The national reform programmes submitted by Ireland in 2010, which are reviewed annually, have not provided any meaningful or systematic consultation in the drafting stages and they have not included any local or regional dimension despite the role local authorities are meant to play and the extra roles which they will take on now, under the new local government Act, in economic development, enterprise creation and planning and sustainable development. I would venture to say that few are aware of the NRPs. This reinforces what my colleagues have said about a lack of informed understanding and structural engagement on EU issues.

Another important issue with which we deal daily in the Committee of the Regions is subsidiarity. Since entry into force of the Lisbon treaty, the Committee of the Regions has the right to bring an action before the European Court of Justice on grounds of infringement of the subsidiarity principle. To this end the committee has established its own subsidiarity monitoring network to facilitate the exchange of information between the local and regional authorities in Europe regarding the various legislative proposals of the Commission. The Irish delegation is a member of the Committee of the Regions' monitoring network and it will be very useful for us to be aware of instances whenever the Houses of the Oireachtas, whether it be the Dáil or the Seanad, issue yellow cards on EU legislative proposals. That would be certainly something that would be of benefit.

The Committee of the Regions concluded an agreement with the European Parliament some weeks ago which aims to strengthen working relationships between the institutions on political and administrative matters. This includes enhancing the linkage between the Committee of the Regions and the European Parliament committees and rapporteurs. There will be a greater exchange of views and information from now on. This agreement makes provision to include the participation of the Committee of the Regions and the 28 national parliaments in the European Parliament's European Parliamentary Week, which we would view as a welcome development. Furthermore, the agreement with the European Parliament into which we have just entered introduces a territorial impact assessment procedure whereby we in the committee will seek to assess the likely impacts of proposed legislation across EU regions at NUTS 2 level.

At present the European Commission is required to undertake an impact assessment on its legislative proposals. As part of this process, it is required to assess the financial and administrative burdens that any proposal will place on either local or regional authorities. However, the experience of the Committee of the Regions is that the Commission impact assessment process is not sufficiently robust. Therefore, the Committee of the Regions will initiate a process of territorial impact assessment this year with a view to pushing the European Commission and the European Parliament to improve how better they take into account the impact of legislation or legislative proposals at local and regional levels. We see this as a positive development to enhance the work of the Committee of the Regions.

I would suggest that with increasing EU competencies, with the Committee of the Regions enhancing its abilities to influence the EU decision-making process and given the restructuring of local government that is under way in this country, there is an opportunity to better represent Irish local and regional interests in the channels available. This topic will be developed by my colleague, Councillor Paul O'Donoghue. I thank the members for their attention.

Councillor Paul O'Donoghue

I will deal in my presentation with the issue of enhancement and involvement at local and regional level in the EU process. As members of the Committee of the Regions, our experiences have given us insight into how EU policies and laws are made. Our experiences have also shown us that at national and local government levels we could do better in terms of engagement in the process. First, we need greater awareness in a timely fashion of what is being proposed at EU level in order that there is sufficient time to act on or react to the information provided. We then need to use whatever expertise and experience is available to assess proposals and set out the priorities for the country and local government. We need to avail of all the opportunities and channels to use this information to inform an Irish national approach and to use it in the EU decision-making process. That said, we must operate within the systems that apply in Ireland and so we have three modest proposals to make to the committee, which we hope it will consider.

As members will have noted, representation of the Committee of the Regions comprises members of a diverse number of political parties and none, yet we are all agreed that the three modest proposals being put forward would enhance our work in Europe and enhance interaction between us and Members of the Oireachtas. First, we propose the establishment of a forum for EU representatives, bringing together members of this committee, the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, the Irish MEPs, Irish members of the Committee of the Regions and of the Economic and Social Committee and other relevant stakeholders to discuss policy issues in order that we could share insights and help develop common positions to enable Ireland to maximise its influence within the EU institutional architecture. This initiative could be led by this committee which could initially meet to discuss identified national priorities in the European Commission's annual work programme. Second, we recommend that the Government develop a medium-term strategy for our membership of the European Union setting out priority issues and the vision for our membership as the EU evolves. Third, we favour a more open and structured process of consultation by all Departments on EU policy proposals. This would help promote awareness and provide an opportunity for local government and civil society to engage on the key issues. We suggest the European semester and the annual review of the national reform programme would be a good starting point for such a process. That said, at local government level there is some work to be done in terms of creating awareness and of building the capacity to engage.

Current discussion on the EU tends to focus either on funding or issues that cause division, including environmental protection, septic tanks and so on. In our view, engagement on such issues at the earliest possible stage in order to shape policy could be worthwhile. While there is some consultation between lead Departments, the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the County and City Managers Association, there is no consultation at political level. There are various avenues for input to the EU policy-making process. It is vital that local authorities develop the capacity for EU interaction and involvement. This will need recognition not only at political level but by the city and county managers.

More active engagement in the policy-making process and better awareness of proposed EU legislation can only help when it comes to more effective transposition, implementation and compliance. This should lead to reduced incidence of the European Commission taking Ireland to court, thus attracting fines for the country. Specifically, in relation to better involvement of the local and new regional assemblies, we suggest that there is a role for the Oireachtas at the pre-legislative stage in establishing a more structured mechanism for consultation with local government on proposals from the European Commission that have implications at local government level. Allied to this, the system for transposing EU legislation into national law needs to take a far more inclusive approach. The new regional assemblies will build on the current responsibilities at regional level as managing authorities for the regional operation of programmes and in implementing EU projects by way of enhanced economic planning responsibilities. We believe it is vital that they have the capacity to make a formalised input into assessing relevant EU legislative and policy proposals from the local and regional perspective to complement their EU funding and EU projects. We would be pleased to assist in any way possible in facilitating better interaction of policy consultation and response through the EU national, regional and local channels.

We met a number of years ago with the then committee on European scrutiny. We had hoped for follow-on from that meeting by way of interaction between us as members of the Committee of the Regions and the members of that committee. Unfortunately, that follow-on did not happen. I have no doubt, given the enthusiasm of members of this committee for the European project, that there will be greater interaction into the future with the Committee of the Regions and this committee. We believe that if we are not informed of national policy on a given issue, it will be difficult for us to represent the country in Brussels. All nine of us, who, as I said earlier, are members of all parties and none, are anxious that detailed consideration be given to our proposals, which we believe are a modest step but one in the right direction.

Chairman

I thank the delegates for their opening statements. I also thank them for the submission to our report on Ireland and the future of the European Union, which is useful and will form part of the document we hope to issue in a couple of weeks. On the three proposals put forward, in particular the third proposal that we prepare a medium-term strategy for Ireland's relationship with the European Union, I see the document being produced by the committee as being a first step in that direction. I expect the delegation would make additional submissions at future stages.

On the proposal regarding more involvement by the committee in the semester process and national reform programme, that is very useful. Last year, we met representatives of the Department of Finance to discuss the national reform programme. The committee will examine this issue further with the officials. What might be possible this time around, and if it works, next time around also, is attendance of one or two members of the delegation here today as witnesses at the meeting with the officials. We will try to ensure we include a flavour from the Committee of the Regions expressed during the semester process. It is true the semester process has only just commenced and we are in the process of ensuring it evolves into a meaningful dialogue between national parliaments and the Commission and regional representatives.

On the issue of the establishment of a forum of EU representatives, I mentioned that a number of us were in Brussels earlier this week when we met MEPs. We raised the same issue with the MEPs as the delegation has raised with us today, namely, the lack of communication on occasions. While people are free to attend these meetings it does not on occasion suit them to do so because they are either in Strasbourg or Brussels.

We are trying to find a time and it might be that we arrange a meeting every six months or every four months, which is convenient for everybody. It might have to be on a Friday or a Monday, which might not suit everybody, but if we have a limited number of such meetings it might be possible to have them here. That should be the forum for involving the witnesses. I cannot speak for the Minister, but in terms of the members of the committee, MEPs and the witnesses present, it should be possible to do something. I take Councillor O'Donoghue's point that it is something that has been suggested in the past. It needs more work. It might not happen before the European Parliament and local elections, but we should aim for it. We have noticed that since the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, national parliaments have considerable power, as do the citizens through the citizens' initiative, and we need to work together to ensure we utilise them in the national interest.

Senator Terry Leyden

I thank the Chairman and the committee secretariat for organising this meeting with the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions. I know all the members who have participated since 1994. I know that the quality of the membership is extremely high. It takes considerable commitment to go to Brussels on a regular basis which is not well recognised. Never before has our need for such representation been greater because the reduction from 12 MEPs to 11 MEPs following Croatia's accession to the European Union is a major blow to Ireland. The Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions is a resource for Ireland, which should be recognised and I am glad the Chairman has done so by inviting them here today. They should feel free to contact us on any particular issue through the secretariat.

Councillors McGowan, Hanniffy and O'Donoghue, representing the group, made a presentation putting across their point of view. Their requirements are certainly worthy of recognition. I know that the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Donohoe, is very open to working with the group and I believe he has already met them. If not, he certainly will be available, as he has made quite clear. The report we received from the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions Brussels office contains a number of points related to the green infrastructure and other issues that come beforehand. The submissions the delegation made have been very well recognised by the European Commission.

I have no questions. I offer my best wishes to those of the witnesses who are running for election on 23 May. I know the time they spend on the Committee of the Regions takes them away from home and their constituencies and it is much appreciated. I do not know how they can get more recognition, not just individually, but for their work. Along with the MEPs they represent a vital resource, particularly for local authorities. Local authorities should use their skills more in the future because of the reduction in the number of MEPs.

The Council of Europe also has a regional forum which contains members from Ireland. I suggest that the Chairman might consider inviting those members to appear before the committee. We work together in regard to those matters.

People should not criticise representatives from this country going to Brussels whether it is the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions, MEPs or members of the Council of Europe. We represent Ireland and we fly the flag. The witnesses know the networking they have created. Irish people certainly have skills in communications and networking throughout Europe. The delegation's influence on the Committee of the Regions can only benefit this country. I wish them all success in the future and I hope they will be returned and will continue to work on the Irish delegation to the Committee of the Regions.

Deputy Dara Murphy

I welcome the witnesses. I know that many of them will be running in the local elections in May and I wish them all the best in that regard. As Senator Leyden said, the Irish are unquestionably very good at networking, but I am not so sure we are so good at networking with each other.

I wish to pick up on some of the recommendations the delegation made. I do not necessarily agree with Senator Leyden that losing one MEP is a blow to the country. We are also losing councillors and Deputies; we are not losing any Senators. Given that we are experiencing a reduction in the numbers it should encourage us to be more efficient with what we have. We obviously have our Government, our Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, the European Parliament, the Dáil, the Seanad, this committee and of course in the European Semester we also have the finance committee. Then we have our MEPs and the Committee of the Regions.

What relationship do the witnesses have with our MEPs? Certainly there needs to be a beefing up of their relationship with this institution. On the other side are the groups that the witnesses most overtly represent, the regional authorities and local authorities. What is the chain of information flow?

Obviously the witnesses are all out there wearing the green jersey. However, are they seeing a significant shift towards the political parties to have a socialist ethos or a Christian democratic ethos through the EPP, the Socialist Group or the ALDE Group?

The witnesses each represent different regions which have different pressures. In most instances I know they would agree. However, do they find there are issues on which there are challenges or differences?

The first idea of the three, the medium-term strategy and the structured relationship are obvious, but the idea of the forum is quite important. A large number of groups represent Ireland and they do great work out there. Does everybody know what everybody else is doing, particularly in the area of yellow cards and other cards, and European scrutiny? We are a very small country and we do not divide up the jobs as efficiently as we should do. Perhaps the forum might be a good way, through this committee, of starting a dialogue in that regard.

Chairman

With the committee's approval, I will call Deputy Durkan next as he needs to go and make a speech in the Dáil.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

My colleagues have been giving out to me for a long time. I thank you, Chairman, for allowing that. I also thank you for facilitating this meeting. It is very important that we have what were our colleagues at some time in the past and perhaps will be our colleagues at some time in the future at local level coming before the committee.

We all support the concept of more power to the regions, more power to national parliaments, more power to the European Parliament and more power to the Council. The problem is that within that there is a division of responsibilities and authority. To what extent will authority and responsibility be equally divided between all those groups? As I have said many times, none of us takes full responsibility for our membership of the European Union. We need in the regions, at local authority level, at national level and at European level, to take full responsibility and ownership of the European project. That means we are equal to all others on the Continent of Europe within the European Union. That means we have equal rights and equal status in every sense of the world. That means that each region and each parliament has an equal entitlement, regardless of the numerical strength of one or the other. Very often that tends to be forgotten.

In addition and as part of that evolution, it is inevitable that there will be a debate, hidden or in the open, on the competition between all of those people in that equation as to who achieves supremacy.

To my mind no one should achieve supremacy. I believe the sum total of the contribution to be made at each level is of critical importance to the European project. If we leave one part of it out then we fail to carry out the role and responsibility that was given to us. If we give too much power to the European Parliament and too much vis-à-vis the other components then someone will suffer. The same applies in respect of the Council of Ministers, which effectively controls the interests of each member state. There is one question and I will set it out simply. There is a tendency to re-nationalise representation at European level. That is not to our advantage and not to the advantage of any smaller country in any way. It is clearly to the disadvantage of the smaller countries because once power and influence is nationalised, the bigger and more powerful countries attain supremacy. I call on our visitors to ponder the way in which, at this level and through the aegis of the respective bodies in Europe, they promote themselves as a serious influence on the European scene without re-nationalisation or nationalising their input. For example, there was a delegation of representatives from one European country which has a veto on the decisions of the Council. When we asked them what jersey they wore when they issued their instructions to their Minister when it comes to voting at the Council of Ministers, which they do, they did not answer the question. The reason they did not answer the question is because they could not answer the question since the answer was obvious. They vote with the national jersey. At that stage the national jersey of a particular country dominates everything else throughout the 28 member states and that should not be. It means that each country must take ownership at national parliamentary level and at regional and local parliamentary level of the whole European project. Each country must recognise it as part and parcel of its responsibility. It is the responsibility of the delegation and our responsibility. We have one thing in common within the European Union. We have, presumably, a single objective. We must have unity of purpose. If we depart from that we are in difficulty because then the old adage of divide and conquer will prevail. I thank the Chairman and I apologise for having to race across but I will be back.

Chairman

Thank you very much. Who would like to come back in?

Councillor Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Chairman for the hospitality shown to us and for his personal interest. I know the invitation to present today came from the Chairman following his attendance at our meeting when he made a commitment to us. Deputy Michelle Mulherin, who has just left us, is a former member of the Committee of the Regions dating back to when we were appointed five years ago. She went on to greater things. Deputy Durkan made an altogether valid point relating to where we stand on the European stage. There are nine members of the Committee of the Regions wearing the green jersey. At the same time, three of the nine of us are co-ordinators on the commissions that we represent. We all have two particular commissions of which we are members, and each commission has members from the 28 EU countries. Three of us co-ordinate all of these activities. That is significant from a relatively small group of nine. Among the nine of us there are also two vice presidents of the political groupings that we represent. I could be open to contradiction on the matter but during the past 12 months from a quick count I reckon we have had ten opinions between us as rapporteurs. In this role we have the responsibility of responding to communications, mainly from the European Commission. This involves having stakeholder meetings and meetings with the other members of our commissions and then guiding the decisions through at plenary. All of these rapporteur decisions were significant in terms of bringing opinions together. The role offers the opportunity to lead and network on the European stage. It is important to make that point. Deputy Murphy asked a key question in respect of the MEPs. We do not have a formal structure with the MEPs. However, we do have more ad hoc arrangements on a personal level within our own party structures. This is especially relevant if Irish MEPs are taking a lead in committees on opinions for which we are acting as rapporteurs. Certainly, there is a need for a more formal structure.

We share a building with the members of the European Economic and Social Committee but we do not have the opportunity to meet them. Often they share the same documents when it comes to contributing to a rapporteurship in respect of the communications from the Commission and the European Parliament. There is a need for all of us to join forces in this area. A point was made by my colleague, Councillor O'Donoghue, in respect of the opportunity to influence legislation. I worked on one particular opinion last year relating to education and skills. We were ahead of the European Parliament and our counterparts there took the document that we had concluded work on and took many of our recommendations for theirs. Certainly, there are opportunities to influence at that stage. A valid question was raised relating to the different regions we represent. I represent Kildare, Wicklow and Meath, where we have largely urban areas but many rural areas as well. It is representative of the country at large apart from coastal areas. In the past week we have seen a good deal of coastal erosion and damage done to the coast because of the weather. That is far more relevant for members from those areas. The same applies in respect of fisheries. My colleague, Councillor O'Donoghue, has taken the lead in the Committee of the Regions on fisheries issues. He has worked well with Pat The Cope Gallagher, MEP on his position and what he does in Europe. By and large, we have many of the same issues but geographically there are some specific issues as well.

Councillor Declan McDonnell

Deputy Dara Murphy asked a question about what we contribute. One of the things that I and several members brought forward at regional authority meetings was a sense of awareness of the funding available to the local authorities. In the west region, the managers of Roscommon, Mayo and Galway County Councils as well as Galway City Council went out to meet the Irish regions office. Mr. Robert Collins brought in people who were experienced in assessing what funding would be available between 2014 and 2020. As part of a follow-up, the Galway city manager invited Robert to come to Galway to address all the directors.

Chairman

Who is Robert Collins?

Councillor Declan McDonnell

Mr. Robert Collins runs the Irish regions office. The manager invited him over to address all the directors within Galway City Council and invited the Galway county manager and all of the relevant staff there as well. They had a joint meeting for three hours in Galway. It dealt with funding programmes that were available. That was the first time such a briefing took place and others have followed in several regional authorities. On 28 February in Roscommon Mr. Collins is addressing a conference with the same team. For the first time since I began on the committee I have seen a coherent effort to get awareness to local managers, whether city or county managers, and to the staff of what is available. In the good times no one bothered but now everyone is looking for funding. That is one benefit.

Chairman

Is the funding mostly focused on the Leader programmes or partnership programmes or is it the whole range?

Councillor Declan McDonnell: There are others. It ranges across the sphere of what is available from 2014 to 2020. It is worthwhile and it may be worthwhile for this committee to see the presentation as well. I have received feedback from the manager. I set up the meeting and he was grateful. The feedback indicated it was a worthwhile exercise. This is something we should be developing. This is derived from our representation in Europe. Between the nine of us we asked the person responsible to set up these meetings and it has worked.

Deputy Dara Murphy

Is it is possible that there are managers of local authorities who are unaware of schemes from which they could be drawing down money?

Councillor Declan McDonnell

I would certainly say "Yes". There are such situations.

Local authorities probably did not need such funding in the good days, but there is certainly a need now for funding for many projects. I have a figure in my head of €8.5 million which was left behind in one year, because matching funding was not available. There are projects that local authorities could do with EU funding, and some of the county councils have done that in the past.

Councillor Constance Hanniffy

There is a deficit of knowledge about EU policy and funding follows the policy which Europe is engaging with at a particular time. People need to be brought up to speed on the policy issues that are there, and the funding of projects that can be derived from them and which can be of benefit to a particular region or county.

I thank the Chairman for his commitment to the three points which we have prioritised here today. We look forward to seeing the document the committee will produce in the coming weeks. We look forward to engaging with the committee in future updates. It is very welcome that the committee has given a commitment towards better engagement with us in respect of the NRP and so on. That is to be very welcome and it is something we have been looking for and something we have spoken about for quite some time. If the committee takes on board the forum for structured dialogue, we will have gone down quite a lot of the road today.

Deputy Dara Murphy spoke about the relationship with MEPs. As Councillor O'Loughlin said, there is no structured dialogue, but in fairness, there should be a structured dialogue in place back home in Ireland for all people who represent the Irish interests on the various committees. We also have the economic and social committee, which involves the partnership people, the trade unions, business people and so on. There is also the Council of Europe. I feel there should be better engagement, if only once or twice a year, and perhaps this committee could consider facilitating that. The role of our engagement with the regional authorities and regional assemblies can sometimes be very strong. Coming from the BMW region, I certainly have very good, structured engagement with the regional assembly in relation to EU issues and the EU operational programmes. I chair the monitoring committee of the EU operational programmes in that assembly region. That engagement is there and the interaction and development of our contacts in setting and facilitating cross-border programmes is part and parcel of the work which we do through the assembly. I am sure it happens in the southern and eastern assembly as well.

I was asked if there is a shift in the COR towards a political process. I must be honest and say that there is. If a politician is not engaged in his or her political grouping in the COR, he or she will not bring much influence to bear on anything. It is fair to say that. We in Ireland, particularly Councillor Hurley, Councillor Sheahan and myself, are possibly in a more disadvantaged position than some of the others because we belong to large political groupings who have a great number of members with huge political clout across Europe. We must throw our weight in with them and compete with them. We have learned how to do that and we have positioned ourselves as vice chairs and vice presidents on committees, with the result that three of us are now co-ordinators on various commissions. For two years, I was the chairperson of the last COR grouping of the high-powered Commission for Economic and Social Policy, or ECOS. I got that through my engagement and work within the political process.

Are we competing among ourselves, coming from regions with different pressures? We all know our own issues and I think we try to bring them together as a package and try to deal with like-minded members in other delegations. These members would come from similar regions to ourselves and might have similar problems to us. In other words, it is about networking.

Chairman

Thank you. I have three more questioners, but I before I invite them to speak, I believe Councillor Sheahan wanted to make a contribution.

Councillor John Sheahan

Thank you, Chairman, for the invite here today and for the hospitality you have shown us. I am probably the newest member of the COR, having only joined less than two years ago. This is a very helpful meeting today to record the wishes of the COR members. I believe there is a disconnect between the MEPs, regional authorities and local government level. Perhaps that disconnect even exists with these Houses, and we need to look at that. When people speak about EU legislation or EU directives, we often find that they are being introduced more with a stick than a carrot. The reason for that is the lack of interaction between the different bodies prior to the introduction of the legislation. We are striving to change that. When we go out to wear the Irish jersey, even though we wear our parish jerseys, we need to go out with a knowledge of what exactly is the country's position on the different issues coming before us. We are only an advisory body and sometimes in Europe, one can cry very loudly and not be heard. At least if we are all singing off the one hymn sheet, it will definitely help us in the future.

Some of the funding we are talking about is grant aided. It is tedious to get through the funding applications. They are a bit unwieldy. I agree that the local authorities and some of the regional authorities are not up to speed with how to apply for them and how to structure them. Much of it would need a more regional based approach, because there are some large funds out there that we can tap into, now that we are in a different climate at home. We need to present our cases a lot better in respect of the grant aid that we can draw down from Europe. If we interact more with Members of these Houses and with our MEPs and get rid of the current disconnect, perhaps the Chairman can drive that from this committee with the new members of the COR after May, because we are going to have change.

Deputy Dara Murphy

Councillor Sheahan will probably be a Minister by then.

Senator Catherine Noone

I thank the witnesses for attending today and for making their presentations. The conversation is very worthwhile. Councillor Sheahan and Councillor Hanniffy probably get my e-mails on a weekly basis, if they do not delete them. I am the spokesperson for the Government on European affairs in the Seanad and I quite regularly deal with things that are happening in Europe and try to release to the media certain things that are coming down the tracks. I am picking up on words today and those that have been repeated the most are "disconnect", "communication" and "lack of understanding" with Europe.

That applies at all levels where Europe is concerned. I agree with Councillor Constance Hanniffy who said there is a lack of understanding and engagement with the European Union and it is a big problem across the board from councillors to Senators, Deputies, MEPs and the media. The European Union is such a complicated institution that the general public is lost as to what exactly occurs. Very little recognition is given to Europe for the good things that happen there. The Chairman mentioned that we were in Brussels and had discussions around the plain packaging of cigarettes which hit the headlines. There are so many good things that happen that affect people's daily lives that are not highlighted. Communication across the board is an ongoing problem.

Deputy Dara Calleary asked a question I was going to ask about communication. Is there a communication channel in place for the Committee of the Regions, councillors or whoever is interested to access legislation coming down the tracks or are councillors in the same position as me in that I have to search for it? Perhaps there could be some nexus involving Europe. The one thing that came across in a big way when we were in Europe is that Europe is a very effective communicator, but communication is two-way and has to be picked up by people.

On the question of MEPs, I certainly think there is a willingness on their part to be more engaged. It was highlighted to us the number of committees they are required to be on, how tied they are timewise and how difficult it is for them. We can have very little representation on certain issues, for example, on the foreign affairs committee we do not have any representation from any MEP from any political party from Ireland. This highlights the fact that issues such as agriculture, fisheries and so on are much more important to us. It was interesting to understand how stretched are the MEPs. That does not help the communications issue either between MEPs and ourselves and between MEPs and themselves.

On the point about the green jersey which everybody repeats and which Deputy Bernard Durkan mentioned, Mr. Seán Kelly gave a very interesting example of how the green jersey was worn over there on a fisheries issue and how he just happened to meet Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher. This goes back to the 1980s when we got extra fishing rights to make up for the fact that we did not have as many as we had previously. I will not bore the committee with the detail of it but the basic point was Mr. Seán Kelly and Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher happened to meet each other and he happened to be going in to vote, and it meant he was able to ask a few of the EPP members around him to vote for it, saying it would not affect them but would help Ireland. That is an illustration of how the MEPs need to communicate with one another but, in practice, it is difficult because these people are busy living in Europe trying to get to everything they have to attend. They mentioned that there is room for them to meet up among themselves.

The last issue was the forum idea suggested by the witnesses. I had suggested such a forum for MEPs generally on a regional basis, perhaps twice a year, where they would have an opportunity to communicate what they are doing in Europe and to get feedback from the public, councillors or whoever. Certainly, I would be interested in a forum such as that suggested by Councillor Paul O'Donoghue. I thank the witnesses and hopefully we will meet soon again.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I welcome the delegation. It is my pleasure to speak to the experts. Senator Catherine Noone and I have just returned from a familiarisation visit to the European Union, the Parliament and the Commission. It is rather complicated so the witnesses will excuse me if I get the dot on the wrong "i"; they are the experts, having been there for five years ploughing their furrow. It is important, given the overall political context, that the European Union, national parliaments and local government know there is great concern at the participation by the citizenry of all 28 member states in the process. We are here speaking about how we can relate to one another with the MEPs, this committee and the Committee of the Regions. I do not underestimate the difficulty in creating a structure that has us all speaking together. It will not be easy. I am a relatively new member of this committee. Earlier, this committee had tried to facilitate the MEPs and had chosen a Thursday for them but, as the witnesses will see, they are not very visible.

Whatever about our political affiliations, the key issue is that we have to try to encourage the electorate to participate in a more open way with the Committee of the Regions, Brussels parliamentarians, Government and MEPs because of the threat and fear that as a result of the economic crisis that has affected us, people will become more alienated and this will lead to the potential withdrawing of engagement with the magnificent programme of the European Union.

I am still a bit mystified because everybody keeps asking if we are all wearing the green jersey. The witnesses are affiliated to political groupings and it has been said, rightly, that if one is in the Socialist group or the Christian Democratic group, one affiliates to them. It is hard to figure this out, but we have some MEPs from Dublin who do not believe in the Union. Irrespective of our political affiliation, it has to be admitted that we did a great job in the Presidency and we have achieved much in the international arena in terms of our status and role as a small nation, especially after the troika pulling out of the bailout and other aspects of our development programme and the Irish Aid programme. We are highly respected as a small programme. What do the witnesses think of the suggestion regarding the forum? I hope the Chairman can develop a new structure with the witnesses because we all have to talk to one another. It is a rather complex field and the witnesses are the specialists. We have only just learned about the structures and we are happy to move forward. May I ask a personal question of those of the witnesses who may be in Fine Gael, the Christian Democratic party, which is called-----

Councillor Constance Hanniffy

The EPP.

Deputy Eric Byrne

-----the EPP? It is meeting in Dublin to nominate its candidate.

Senator Catherine Noone

On 6 March.

Deputy Eric Byrne

They are more than welcome. Do the witnesses have a vote with their MEPs and the Christian Democratic parliamentarians in choosing the candidate?

Senator Catherine Noone

No. The leaders decided. I thought we had a vote but I asked that very question in Brussels the other day. I had a discussion with Deputy Dara Calleary this morning and it appears it is just the leaders who decide.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Mr. Derek Dignan is a very active man who operates out of Brussels. The witnesses mentioned the permanent representatives. We have a wonderful ambassador and deputy ambassador but do they interact with the Committee of the Regions?

Councillor Patrick McGowan

Very much so.

Deputy Eric Byrne

It is still a mystery. During my 30 years in local government, local government and regional government, as stated in the presentation, have been highly centralised. I am thinking of a country, such as Belgium, which did not have a government for more than 12 months but its regions were strong. In Spain, the regions are also strong, and presumably their representatives are better resourced as delegates to the Committee of the Regions than are the witnesses. How do the witnesses compete with powerful regional representation from such countries?

Chairman

We have some more speakers on this side. The first is Deputy Seán Kyne, followed by Deputy Joe O'Reilly and Senator Maurice Cummins.

Deputy Seán Kyne

I welcome the delegation from the Committee of the Regions and acknowledge Councillor Declan McDonnell from my constituency, Galway West. I apologise for my late attendance as I was speaking in the House and missed the opening presentations. I heard Councillor Paul O'Donoghue's presentation and welcome his comments and proposals on behalf of the committee and acknowledge the Chairman's support for them. Clearly, in the new pre-enactment stage of legislation there is a greater possibility of a role for the Committee of the Regions. I am not sure if it has been in contact with the European Commission representatives, the liaison people on the committees, who have a role in bringing forward EU legislation to the committees and are also involved in the pre-enactment stages of our own legislation. Perhaps there could be greater liaison with the clerks of the various committees.

I thank the delegates for their submission and I note their concern about the United Kingdom, which I am sure is coming from the representatives from the Border counties. The delegates share a concern regarding the referendum on EU membership, if there is to be a referendum in 2017, and continuity of EU membership. I know we all share that same concern. This year a referendum will be held to determine if Scotland will vote for its independence. Perhaps that will play a part in the debate because that will be an issue in the debate on whether the United Kingdom is to remain in the European Union,and will come to the fore in the coming year. I know our Minister has made proposals and has made a speech in the United Kingdom recently. Clearly it will not convince the people in the United Kingdom to vote "Yes" to remaining in the EU for the sake of Ireland but for their own sake. The importance of the European Union must be highlighted.

Improving the public understanding of the European Union was one of the recommendations in the submission. It was suggested that local authorities could be better used to demonstrate the benefits of EU membership. I certainly agree with that because as others have said there is a total disconnect between membership of the EU and the benefits we derive from membership. We all hear the negatives such as the requirement to comply with EU regulations, such as the habitats directive, waste water legislation and regulations on septic tanks. Although the EU directives have been in place for a long time, the issues arising are coming to the fore. We hear speakers at public meetings giving out about the European Union without acknowledging the benefits and positives over a long number of years.

The fundamental principle of the Committee of the Regions is that members are elected by citizens. Is the disconnect between voters and politics, in particular in the European Union, a matter that can be repaired? Can we make everybody understand the benefits that come from our membership of the European Union? As a member of a local authority until 2011, I am sure the witness recognises the issues I have highlighted, such as the negative reaction to some legislation. Does he come across that attitude on the ground?

Deputy Joe O'Reilly

I thank the Chair. I too was speaking in the Dáil and as a result missed the presentations. I have read the original submission and have a sense of the content. I welcome warmly the delegation, individually and collectively. I spent more than 20 very happy years as an elected member in local government and know a number of the delegates individually. I would not only know some individuals but would have an acute awareness of their perspective and the degree to which they could bridge the democratic deficit in local government and how relevant local government is to Europe. I had the privilege of being elected by local authority members to the Seanad on two occasions. I wish to acknowledge that it was a very productive and mutually satisfactory relationship.

The principle of subsidiarity is crucial and makes sense. We are not sufficiently adhering to that principle at European level. I did not hear Councillor Paul O'Donoghue's initial presentation but I understand from other contributions that he proposed the idea of a forum at regional level, feeding the local opinion to the MEPs who can then feed it upward to the decision-making processes in Europe, thus bringing to people an awareness of how the Commission was arriving at decisions. I think it is a wonderful concept. My oldest son was involved with Comhairle na nÓg, the youth organisation, last year. Representatives from Comhairle na nÓg attended the youth forums, an initiative of President Higgins, following his election. The forums were held around the country and were extraordinary successful. The forum in my area was held in Monaghan and all the young people went to the venue to make an input on what was important, and a large delegation went to Áras an Uachtaráin to make a presentation which was televised live. This was impressive and was empowering and encouraging for young people.

Similarly, the principle of a forum can be used in the context of the European Union and I would support that concept. Under the reform of local government, I think local government will be involved, albeit tentatively initially, with setting the rate of the property tax and collecting the taxes locally. To be truthful, no matter how much we engage in grandiose talk on the reform of local government, until local politicians are making decisions on taxation, collecting taxes and being accountable for the moneys collected and implementing policy decisions on spending that money one will not have effective local government reform. I welcome the fact that the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, has included in his proposals a proposition to give local authority members discretion to adjust the property tax. While the level of discretion is inadequate, it is a starting position and I hope it will develop further.

The move to involve local government in the role of job creation and link local authorities to the new local enterprise boards is a very good principle. It is important to give local government an economic function. If local government becomes involved in the collection of taxation, as well as its social and democratic remits, then it can confidently have an input into Europe and can demand a role in this regard. It wold be bizarre of the leadership in Europe if it did not want to tap into a system of local government that was responsible for setting and collecting taxes and accountable for all moneys as well as job creation strategies. I support much greater engagement of local government with Europe, which will mean that structures of local authorities must improve.

My colleagues Deputy Eric Byrne and Senator Catherine Noone went to Europe to be briefed on issues such as the democratic deficit and the disconnect with the public. What can be expected but a democratic deficit and such a disconnect if one does not have an input from the local government representatives directly inputting to European policy. It is nonsense if one does not have that connection.

The point made about the United Kingdom has very serious implications for the people I represent in the Cavan-Monaghan Border constituency. There are many implications for the Border areas if the United Kingdom is outside the European Union. It would have a serious impact on trade as the United Kingdom, our neighbour, is our largest trading partner and we do 57% of our trade with it. It was correct to highlight the importance of trying to encourage the United Kingdom to stay within the European Union. May I suggest that one way to do that is to implement subsidiarity, the very idea that the delegation wants implemented at European level? If there were proper structures to connect local government to Europe that might well encourage the United Kingdom to vote against leaving the Union. It behoves all members elected to local government, the Oireachtas and the European Parliament to do everything through personal contact with UK members, be they of local government, Parliament or the European Parliament, to encourage them to remain in the European Union.

We have a duty to create conditions in the EU whereby the UK does not feel that it should secede from the EU. We have a particular responsibility in that regard.

I do not think anyone will take exception, and I know that the Chair will indulge me, if I make a personal comment. I welcome everyone here. I am delighted that all of the members of the delegation are present and I know many of them individually. They are all welcome and I know them to be excellent people. I hope that nobody will take exception if I briefly extend good wishes to one of the members of the delegation who will retire from local government. Her retirement will be a great loss to the organisation and local government in this country. She has been a pioneering representative and one of our best players. I wish Councillor Connie Hanniffy well in her retirement.

This meeting is critical. Until those involved in local government are directly linked into decision-making in Europe any talk of democracy in Europe and at a Europe-wide level is a nonsense.

Vice Chairman

I echo the Deputy's comments on Councillor Constance Hanniffy. I believe she has spent 40 years working in local government and is approaching two decades working with the Committee of the Regions. We wish her very well in her retirement. I am sure her colleagues are jealous that she will not be knocking on doors and going around the country, especially in this type of weather.

I call Senator Maurice Cummins and then I shall return to the delegation again.

Senator Maurice Cummins

I welcome the delegation. I am not a member of the Oireachtas joint committee. However, I felt that I should attend this afternoon because I was a member of the Committee of the Regions for a number of years prior to 2002. I worked with Constance Hanniffy for a number of years on the committee. I can see that Mr. John Crowley is also in attendance and he worked on the committee at that time.

The work of the Committee of the Regions and its members goes largely unnoticed and their work is undervalued. I welcome the fact that the delegation was invited to make a presentation today, and that presentation is long overdue. I hope that as a result of its presentation today, the Committee of the Regions will be invited to participate in an overall forum and that it will become a lot more involved nationally with this committee, MEPs and so on. It would ensure that we present a united front and a united team that knows what each other is doing and, as we said, wears the green jersey. That is very important.

I was a member of the Committee of the Regions and, at that time, we felt undervalued. We were given a task to do and worked to the best of our ability but we got little or no recognition and were only brought in when it was felt that we could be useful. I hope that attitude has changed. There is a need for greater recognition of the work done by the Committee of the Regions and its members on the behalf of this country and the region. I take this opportunity to compliment each and every member on the work that they do as part of the committee and wish them well in the future.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Senator for his comments. I call Councillor Hurley who will be followed by Councillor O'Donoghue.

Councillor Des Hurley

I am delighted to be here today. Like my colleague, Councillor Sheahan, I am a very new member of the committee. Luckily, Councillor Hanniffy, seated beside me, and some other members have been able to guide me along.

Wearing the green jersey and representing the country comes naturally to us on the committee but other committees do the same for their countries. I was going to ask a couple of questions on what might happen when Scotland and England decide on their future in the EU, but Deputies Kyne and Joe O'Reilly have given me an indication. Within our own political groups there are differences of opinion on what is the best thing to happen - whether to stay in or stay out. There is even a huge difference of opinions between the British delegations. I have found that other members have leaned towards the Irish and asked us what the British will do and whether they are playing games. I am very concerned about the effect that the matter will have on Ireland. A reintroduction of borders would have a detrimental effect on employment and so on that affects us over here. We cannot play around with the matter and we need to have a positive direction in which to go.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan resumed the Chair.

Chairman

I thank Councillor Hurley and call on Councillor Paul O'Donoghue.

Councillor Paul O'Donoghue

I thank the Chairman. I shall briefly deal with some of the issues raised.

Senator Noone asked whether we received advance notice of issues which gets to the kernel of the point that we have tried to make. Every October or November the Commission lays out its legislative programme comprising between 40 and 50 directives that it wishes to introduce. It is our considered view that after the announcement each year the forum we have proposed should meet and decide on an Irish strategy and the way that Ireland should deal with the issues as they arise and as the year goes on.

I know that a Deputy suggested that it could be just local and regional strategy. We hope that it would comprise MEPs, the economic and social policy commission, Committee of the Regions or all of us together in order to produce a common strategy. That is important. As someone inquired earlier, in Brussels does one hand know what the other hand is doing? The honest answer is "No". We depend on ad hoc meetings with MEPs to make a decision on positions but that is not the best way going forward. That explains our position on the introduction of the forum.

A question on political groups was raised. We all have a certain loyalty to our political groups and that is the political reality. However, we have adopted the following position. If an issue is of core importance to Ireland then the political group position is secondary to the position of our country. That is the view that we take. We could all work far better together, as a group and collectively, if we met a few times a year to study the programme. That is all we suggest. It is nothing grandiose, nothing that will cost a lot of money or anything of that nature and is not a talking shop. We suggest we meet to discuss and agree a strategy.

Let me give an example of an opinion that I worked on recently which concerned the marine spatial strategy and integrated coastal management. Most politicians in Ireland and other people had not even heard what was meant by the strategy. The Commission proposed that it would be responsible for the planning of our coastal regions in all of Europe. Such a proposal would have huge implications. As we know, some EU directives have not been well received by Ireland. Were it not for the Oireachtas supplying a paper, by way of the warning system, stating where Ireland stood on the subject, I would have no idea where our country was coming from. The issue was of huge importance to local government, national government and regional government and to politicians of all hues, yet no information flowed through except for the warning mechanism.

Chairman

We heard about the yellow card but there was no advance notification.

Councillor Paul O'Donoghue

There was no advance notification whatsoever. I worked on my own, with my expert at the time, on the issue and were it not for the warning mechanism I would not have known the national position even though it was crucial legislation that would have huge ramifications and implications for Ireland. That again illustrates why it is important that we all work together.

Reference was made to an information deficit. There is huge information deficit. Recently I worked on an opinion on the Atlantic strategy and the Taoiseach brought it through the Council when Ireland held the Presidency in May of last year. The Atlantic strategy could provide huge economic benefits for the country. How many local or regional authorities in Ireland have an idea that the strategy was passed, that it will provide funding from the year 2014 on to 2020, that it has priorities and that we should feed into them? An information gap does exist and other countries are well ahead of Ireland in terms of securing funding.

Most counties here have - believe it or not - a European officer but it is hard to know about him or her. There are many local and regional authorities but I think it is a position in name only, rather than one that is properly used. I would like the Oireachtas committee to use its influence to ensure that local and regional authorities have European officers to watch what comes through from Brussels, to watch things like the Atlantic strategy and know what are our priorities.

Chairman

What percentage would have-----

Councillor Paul O'Donoghue

I think quite a number have them.

Chairman

Would it be 50%?

Councillor Paul O'Donoghue

I found it quite embarrassing to come back to my county a few years ago, when we were asked to find out if we had one. People scratched their heads and eventually someone said we did have one. I did not know who he was and I was on the Committee of the Regions. It is a nominal position but it should be a real one. Other places are wiping our eye in going for funding because they are ahead of the game. I thank the Chairman and members for listening to those issues.

Chairman

I thank Councillor O'Donoghue and call Councillor Patrick McGowan.

Councillor Patrick McGowan

I thank members for their comments. It is becoming very clear that we are all on the one page. Many of us have the same interests and we have all identified the same challenges. We met the Minister approximately a year ago and talked about funding. Much of the structural funding is becoming competitive. It not like a few years ago where there was a cake and it is was divided up among every country.

There are great opportunities now because in Ireland, as in Europe, all our universities and institutes of technology are growing campuses around them, which are doing research, are engaged in job creation and so on. They are in a prime position, with the support of local authorities and county development boards, to pitch for this.

My local authority is probably more advanced than others because we have experience over the years with PEACE, the International Fund for Ireland, INTERREG and so on. We have devised a fairly good model but it needs to be developed. We would like to keep it to ourselves and not give out many of our secrets but this must developed in Cork, Dublin, Galway and elsewhere. Some are at an advanced stage.

There is money that can be drawn down but we need to move very fast to get it. It is not a case of the local authorities taking all the money for themselves for roads or other infrastructure but it is to develop education, research, jobs and tourism. The money is available but we must go after it.

We spoke earlier about the relationships between the different committees. We meet before every plenary and discuss all the issues. We meet Mr. Robert Collins from our secretariat and go through all the issues in advance and discuss our own opinions. All of us know what the others' issues are or the other issues with which we are involved. During the plenary we meet the permanent representatives and the ambassadors and discuss the issues with which we are dealing during the plenary, but we also ask them to give us information on future issues, especially where they pertain to Ireland.

We referred to relationships with other countries in Europe. The UK, for example, is to bring in a tax in regard to foreign lorries which will have a major impact. Many of the transport companies in County Donegal and in other counties will relocate across the Border where they will pay half the road tax. They have come forward with ideas, such as lowering the road tax here and charging foreign lorries the same as in the UK where they pay as they go. Many issues affect the Border region. We have a special relationship with the UK and Northern Ireland, which affects the economy. Many of these issues could be discussed. For me, it is a win-win situation. If this committee could lead on this forum, everything could be tabled and we could work together.

Chairman

I thank Councillor McGowan and call Councillor Fiona O'Loughlin.

Councillor Fiona O'Loughlin

I thank the Chairman. My colleague, Councillor McGowan, put it very well in terms of linking in with the research universities. That is something of which we see a lot through the Committee of the Regions. I learned a lot about it from seeing it in action and seeing evidence of local authorities working extremely closely with universities. On any study visits in which we have been lucky enough to participate it has always been linked in, especially with regard to research ideas. Our Commissioner is in that area and we could learn valuable lessons in that regard.

Deputy Byrne raised support issues and how we fare in a situation in which many of our European colleagues have very well-resourced offices. It was a very valid question. We did not want to complain about resources, or moan about what we have. However, I pay huge tribute to the support we have. Mr. John Crowley does an excellent job, as do Mr. Robert Collins and Mr. Ronan Gingles in the Brussels office and Mr. Jim Conway, who is the director of the Dublin Regional Authority, and our lead director. They do great work on our behalf. However, when we see the resources other members have, namely, fully staffed offices with teams of people doing the research even around the opinions on which the rapporteurs can lead, it certainly leaves us at a disadvantage. There will be a new mandate in December of this year for whatever new members will go forward, and that needs to be taken on board.

We talked about subsidiarity at European and national levels. I also have a mandate from Newbridge Town Council, the first body to which I was elected almost 20 years ago. Today, we will have been in existence for 149 years, originally as a town commission and latterly a town council. Although we are celebrating 149 years in existence, we are extremely sad we are facing demise and that on 23 May, after 149 years and 102 days, the council will be gone. That is a death knell for subsidiarity.

Chairman

I thank Councillor O'Loughlin. On behalf of all the committee members, I thank all the witnesses for coming in today and giving us their time. They have made some concrete proposals on how we can improve on our current methods of communication. We will talk to the officials, work on them and try to come up with something that works better. We are all convinced from our conversation today that it is in our citizens' interests that we build better relationships and communicate better.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.50 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 20 February 2014.