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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs debate -
Thursday, 10 Apr 2014

Voting Rights of EU Citizens: Discussion (Resumed)

The committee is in public session. I remind members, guests and people in the Visitors Gallery to turn off mobile telephones. Putting them on silent is not sufficient because they will interfere with the broadcast equipment. This meeting is being broadcast live on UPC television.

Today's meeting is on voting rights of EU citizens. I welcome His Excellency the Ambassador of Cyprus to Ireland, Dr. Michalis Stavrinos, His Excellency the Ambassador of Denmark to Ireland, Mr. Niels Pultz, His Excellency the Ambassador of Estonia to Ireland, Mr. Mait Martinson, and His Excellency the Ambassador of Spain to Ireland, Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez. Members will be aware that the EU recently published a communication and recommendation on the voting rights of EU citizens exercising their right to free movement within the EU. The Commission criticised a number of countries, including Ireland, for not providing for voting rights in national elections for its citizens living in other member states. Along with Ireland, Denmark, Cyprus, Malta and the UK were cited for disenfranchising voters who have exercised their right to free movement within the EU. Today's meeting will provide an opportunity to explore with the ambassadors from Denmark and Cyprus how their countries have responded or will respond to the commission's criticism.

We will also briefed by the Estonian and Spanish ambassadors on the electoral rights in their countries where voting rights are extended to citizens who live abroad.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way that he, she or it could be identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings today is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before the meeting, I spoke to the ambassadors to decide who would go first and we agreed that the Spanish ambassador would lead off. I invite Mr. Garrigues to make his presentation.

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

I am grateful for the kind invitation to share with the committee the Spanish experience regarding the voting rights of Spanish citizens living abroad. The right to vote is one of the fundamental political rights in any democratic system and to understand the Spanish regulation which enables our citizens living abroad to vote, a short description of the historical background is needed.

Migration, in a similar way to Ireland, has been an important and defining phenomenon through Spanish history and particularly from the mid-19th century to the 1970s. Spaniards, for different reasons, have migrated to all parts of the world, mainly to Latin America and within Europe. There is a general perception in Spanish society that the country owes a debt of gratitude for the sacrifice of those who had to leave their country for economic or political reasons. Giving Spaniards who live abroad the right to vote in their country of residence has to be seen in that context. In the case of those migrating to Latin American countries, this approach goes hand in hand with the Spanish regulation of citizenship which has allowed to the descendants of the original migrant to keep alive their Spanish citizenship while enjoying the citizenship of their country of birth. This is, thus, a very important question in Spain, and one that carries significant consequences of an electoral and political nature.

In this context, it is also relevant to emphasize that any regulation of the electoral law requires an enhanced majority in parliament, which implies the need to seek consensus among political parties. The last modification of the electoral law took place in 2011 and counted with the support of the two main Spanish political parties. The number of registered Spanish citizens residing abroad is 1,609,989. Of those, 440,471 reside in EU countries. In Ireland, there are 4,183 Spanish citizens with the right to vote. The Spanish legal framework for the vote of citizens living abroad can be summarised as follows: Spanish citizens living abroad permanently have the right to vote in referenda, parliamentary elections, autonomic legislative assemblies and European Parliament elections. Since January 2011, Spaniards living permanently abroad can no longer vote in local elections in Spain; unlike other countries allowing the vote of citizens abroad, there is not a special electoral constituency for the Spanish residing abroad.

For electoral purposes, Spaniards with a right to vote while residing abroad are registered in a special census. Their constituencies are the Spanish provinces, determined by their place of birth or special links; the Population Abroad Census receives data from the Spanish consulates' registers and is managed by the National Statistics Institute. Registration at the consulate's register is compulsory for Spanish citizens residing abroad for more than one year. Spanish citizens in the Population Abroad Census who will be 18 on election day enter automatically the Spaniards residing abroad electoral roll. This roll is updated monthly; the voting procedure is operated upon the elector's request. Since 2011 Spaniards living permanently abroad have to send an official application form to their Electoral Census Office provincial delegation no later than the 25th day after the calling of the elections. The official application form is sent ex officio by mail to Spanish electors living permanently abroad. It is also available on the day after the calling of the election both online and at the consular offices.

Once the application is received in Spain, the Electoral Census sends the voting envelope to the elector by registered mail. After receiving their voting envelope, Spaniards living permanently abroad have the option to deposit their electoral documentation, which includes the voting envelope with the ballot paper of their choice, in a ballot box at the Spanish consulate or embassy of the country where they live between the fourth and second day before elections day. They just deposit the vote. Technically, they do not cast the vote as consulates and embassies are not considered polling stations. The elector will identify himself to the consular staff before depositing the envelope in the ballot box. Security measures will be taken and the ballot box will be sealed at the end of the day. Representatives of the lists of candidates may be present at the consular facilities where the deposit of the vote is going on. Alternatively, they can send by mail their electoral documentation to the Spanish consulate or embassy in the country where they live no later than the fifth day before elections day. Gratuity of the postal voting is guaranteed as voters have the right to reimbursement. The consulates or embassies send the envelopes with the electoral documentation to a special office in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation in Madrid. That office is in charge of sending the envelopes with the votes of Spaniards who live abroad to the different electoral commissions.

The turnout of Spaniards living abroad has traditionally been very low compared to the general turnout. Before the electoral law amendment of 2011 the turnout was approximately 25%. In the last general election of November 2011, the turnout reached an all-time low of 4.95%. There are different reasons and explanations for these low turnouts such as lack of interest in the political life of the country, difficulties to follow the electoral campaign and be motivated by it, etc. but the fact is that there is an ongoing debate on the voting procedure and that Spanish migrant associations are urging the administration for a review of the system. The will of the political parties behind the last electoral amendment was to reinforce the guaranties in the voting procedures but the low turnout after the changes is certainly an issue of reflection in parliament. The possibility of introducing an electronic vote has also been on the table but, for the time being, is not seriously considered because of very important technical difficulties. In a nutshell, the Spanish electoral system is defined by its generosity when considering the voting rights of Spaniards living abroad. A very difficult challenge is to balance the guarantees behind the voting procedure while, at the same time, stimulating participation.

I thank Mr. Garrigues Flórez. I call Mr. Pultz. Denmark, like Ireland, was one of the countries cited in the guidance note from the Commission for not granting its citizens this right.

H. E. Mr. Neils Pultz

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear alongside my good friends from other member states to discuss this important issue. Our position is clear and positive but there is a clear limit as to what we can do to accommodate the views contained in the Commission's guidance dated 29 January 2014.

The Danish Government agrees with the Commission that freedom of movement for citizens is a fundamental right in the European Union. To vote at general elections in Denmark, however, a person must have permanent residence in the Kingdom of Denmark. This is stated in the Constitutional Act of Denmark. This requirement implies that Danes living abroad must have maintained a special connection or attachment to the kingdom to be considered as having a permanent residence in the constitutional sense. Such special connection or attachment is seen to be fulfilled by people living abroad temporarily who intend to return to Denmark within two years. Furthermore, it applies to Danish diplomats and military personnel in missions in which Denmark participates. It also applies to people living temporarily abroad, for example, working for an international organisation of which Denmark is a member, working for a Danish company or relief organisation, people living abroad while studying or those abroad on health grounds.

Amendment of the Constitutional Act of Denmark would necessitate a comprehensive and time-consuming procedure as well as fundamental political considerations. The last amendment to the Danish Constitution was passed in 1953. The question of how the Constitutional Act of Denmark is interpreted in respect of Danish expatriates' right to vote was thoroughly examined in 2003-04 by a committee of independent experts in constitutional law. On the basis of their report it became clear that the constitution does not allow for the further extension of Danish expatriates' right to vote on the basis of the current rules. For example, it is not possible to extend in general terms the timeframe for living outside Denmark beyond the period of two years to which I have referred while maintaining the right to vote. That is the Danish position on this important matter. I shall be happy to answer any questions that members of the joint committee may have to the best of my ability.

The next speaker is H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson, Ambassador of Estonia. Estonia is one of the countries that provides these rights to their citizens.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

I thank the committee for inviting me to speak today on the issue of voting rights. Estonian citizens who have attained 18 years of age by election day have the right to vote. It does not matter whether they stay in Estonia or abroad. The law describes that Estonian citizens permanently residing or temporarily staying abroad have the right to vote abroad. As described by my good colleague, the Ambassador of Spain, earlier there are also historical reasons for such an approach in Estonia, dating back to the 1940s and earlier.

As I understand it, the interest of the committee above all probably relates to the different voting methods and what is used by Estonia to grant the right. Voting methods used in Estonia include advance voting, voting aboard, voting on ships, voting on election day and Internet voting, i-voting or e-voting.

Voting abroad for national elections, European Parliament elections and referendums is organised in foreign countries through Estonian foreign missions. This applies mostly to traditional methods of voting, that is, voting by post, which must take place 30 days before election day and in person at foreign missions. A foreign mission must allow voting acclamation on at least two days in the period between ten and 15 days before election day. One of these days must be a business day and the second must be a holiday, be it Saturday, Sunday or a national holiday in the host country. Of course, if a person stays in a foreign country he can still apply to use electronic voting or i-voting over the Internet.

I suppose with the passing of time the traditional methods, by which I mean voting by post or at the embassy, do not differ so much and I would rather jump quickly and straight to so-called i-voting. I-voting was first introduced in the local elections in Estonia 2005. At that time more than 9,000 voters cast a ballot via the Internet, corresponding to approximately 2% of all participating voters. Up to now i-voting with binding results has been carried out six times, most recently in the local elections in October 2013. The number of participating i-voters has grown steadily, reaching more than 140,000 voters in the last national elections, which took place in 2011. This number corresponds to approximately 24% of participating voters or 15% of the general electorate.

How is it done? The easiest way to explain it is to say that in order to participate in i-voting a person must have a national identification card, such as this card I have before me. It has an electronic chip with all the relevant data. The person must be identified using the card reader. There is new equipment to read the built-in systems in the card. It is a travel document within the European Union as well. If a person applies for the card, he is presented with two secret codes.

You said "If a person applies...". Is it compulsory for every Estonian citizen or is a voluntary?

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

It is compulsory now. A person receives a secret envelope with two personal identification number codes. Many public services in Estonia are provided the same way. In a nutshell, this is how electronic voting takes place. It has changed the participation of our people living abroad. The votes are counted automatically and we do not need to employ extra or additional people. The effect on foreign missions has been to reduce the workload during and prior to elections. These are the remarks I wished to share with the committee. If there are any additional issues or questions, I would be pleased to respond.

Thank you, ambassador. Finally, we have the ambassador for Cyprus, H. E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos

I thank the committee for inviting me to brief it on the response of Cyprus to the European Commission's recommendation regarding the voting rights of citizens living abroad.

In accordance with the specific reference of the guidance regarding Cyprus: "Cypriot citizens lose their right to vote in national elections if they have not resided in Cyprus during the six months immediately preceding such elections, unless they are residing abroad because they study or temporarily work there, or for health reasons." Although issues concerning the composition of the electorate belong exclusively to national competence, as also highlighted by the head of the European Commission Representation in Ireland, Ms Barbara Nolan, on 11 March to this committee, out of courtesy and in a spirit of solidarity with common thinking on aspects of broader joint concern, Cyprus fully and transparently responds to the guidance at hand.

In accordance with the legislation of the Republic of Cyprus, the right to register as a voter is regulated by a number of instruments. Article 63 of the constitution stipulates "every citizen of the Republic who has ... such residential qualifications as may be prescribed by the Electoral Law shall have the right to be registered as an elector ... No person shall be qualified to be registered as an elector who is disqualified for such registration by virtue of the Electoral Law". Under Article 92 of the population registry law, the right to vote is attributed to every citizen of the Republic who has his or her habitual residence in Cyprus for a period of six months immediately preceding the obtaining of voting rights. This provision concerns exclusively the right to register oneself initially on the voting registry. It should be noted that registration on the voter list is permanent.

According to the above mentioned stipulations of Cypriot legislation, the reference to Cyprus in the Commission's guidance cannot be characterised as accurate. The requirement for a six-month residence in Cyprus concerns exclusively registration purposes, as a condition, solely for the initial enrolment. Following registration, any citizen of the Republic enjoys the right of participation to every electoral process conducted by the Republic, without any restriction, limitation or diminution of his or her voting rights. A citizen is only erased from the voting registry due to death or conviction by a court for specific voting offences.

Since I have been afforded the opportunity to brief the committee on the issue of an all–inclusive participation of Cypriot voters in elections within the EU, allow me to inform members that recent legislation was adopted in order to facilitate further the participation of the Turkish Cypriots in European elections. Through this legislation, Turkish Cypriots gain automatic registration on the electoral roll while enjoying further simplified identification formalities.

In conclusion, any citizen of the Republic of Cyprus who is already listed in the electoral registry does not lose his or her electoral rights if he or she moves to another EU member state or anywhere else abroad. The Government of the Republic of Cyprus is taking every practical step to facilitate overseas Cypriots to exercise their voting rights. Of course and as on any other occasion, everything depends on the expression of interest of those concerned. For the coming May elections, 16 voting centres will operate abroad to facilitate interested expatriate Cypriots. The response of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus lies along the above lines and has already been channelled through our Permanent Mission to Brussels.

I thank the ambassador. I am sure that members would like to ask a few questions. I will begin by asking the Spanish ambassador a couple. He mentioned that Spanish citizens living abroad had the ability to vote in European Parliament elections. Any Spanish citizen living in Ireland automatically has a right to vote in Ireland in European elections. Does this mean that Spanish citizens in EU member states outside Spain have two votes in the European elections? If so, has there been any discussion on this matter in Spain?

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

I do not understand the Chairman's question. What does he mean by "two votes"?

In effect, Spanish citizens living in Dublin have a right to vote in the European Parliament election in the Dublin constituency for whichever candidates they like. My understanding is that they also have a right to vote in the European elections in some Spanish constituencies, perhaps linked to their provinces. Is that the case?

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

If they reside here permanently, they vote here, but those votes go to their provinces of origin in Spain. That might be the source of the confusion. They do not have two votes.

If they reside here permanently, they can be on the electoral register here.

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

Yes.

They will have, as citizens of the EU, a certain letter beside their names on the Irish electoral register granting them access to voting rights in Ireland as well. That is my point. Does the ambassador know whether they have two votes each?

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

My guess is that they only have one each, but I do not know the Irish system.

We might pick up that matter elsewhere. Mr. Garrigues mentioned that registration on a consulate's register was compulsory for Spanish citizens residing abroad for more than one year. Do I take it from this that every Spanish citizen living outside the state must register at a consulate or embassy on a yearly basis?

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

Not on a yearly basis. If they stay abroad for more than one year, they must register then. It does not mean that they all do, but the obligation is there.

That is interesting. We do not have that system. I thank Mr. Garrigues. If the ambassadors will make a note of my questions, I will ask other members to ask theirs and they can be answered together.

Do I take it from the Danish ambassador's comments that he does not expect Denmark to make any proposed change? Will his Government make a submission to the Commission?

The committee visited the ICT Demo Center in Tallinn last year, with which the Estonian ambassador may be familiar. We saw the Estonian system in operation. It was quite remarkable to see the amount of information contained on the card, not just as regards voting, but also health, social welfare, revenue and banking. Seeing how advanced Estonia was in that respect was useful. Mr. Martinson stated that up to 25% of people were happy to use the card for voting. We had an experience with e-voting 12 years ago. Unfortunately, it was not successful. How much e-voting buy-in has there been in Estonia? Given Mr. Garrigues's comments, turnout could be low if people must attend their embassies. One way of ensuring that people abroad vote might be e-voting.

I thank Dr. Stavrinos for that clarification. It seems clear that the Commission inaccurately described the situation in Cyprus. No doubt the clarification will be accepted by the Commission.

I welcome our guests and thank them for sharing the opinions of their respective governments. It will help the committee in how we proceed. I will make some general points that our guests might address at a later stage.

Am I correct that in all the countries in which this practice is allowed there is a list system, principally, which provides for easier access to the voting system in terms of administration at the back end? Devising a system that fits with our PR system will engage us considerably because of the impact on people in terms of registering in their individual constituencies.

Mr. Garrigues said that people can vote in a manner that supports the region from which they come. How does this work? For example, does the individual decide to register for a particular region or register based on birth, the last location in which he or she lived prior to migrating, and so on? I can see how that would work for us in presidential or European elections, but it would be much more difficult for us in the context of Dáil and local elections. I look forward to hearing how the Spanish manage the connection between the place where the vote counts and the individual.

I welcome the ambassadors. The Danish ambassador referred to the need for change of the Danish constitution. Is there any appetite for this in Denmark? I note the statement that freedom of movement for citizens is a fundamental right in the European Union. The guidance issued by the European Commission refers to the right to vote as one of the fundamental rights of citizenship and its being part of the fabric of democracy. It also states that depriving citizens of their vote once they move to another country is tantamount to punishing citizens for having exercised their free movement and that such practices risk making them second-class citizens. That is a very strong statement. Is there any appetite for change on the back of the Commission recommendation?

In Ireland, the Constitutional Convention has made some recommendations around this issue. Even travelling abroad can interfere with an Irish person's ability to vote. What is the position for people travelling abroad from Spain, Denmark, Cyprus and Estonia on the day of election? Is there a facility in place in those countries for citizens to vote on that day? What structures aside from e-voting are available in this regard? Our system is very rigid. It is difficult to even provide for postal votes for people resident in nursing homes.

Many of the difficulties in this area have arisen out of a fear of fraud. Have Cyprus, Spain, Denmark and Estonia experienced similar fears and, if so, how have they overcome them? Mr. Martinson outlined the steps people had to go through in Estonia. Did the other countries experience similar difficulties?

When a citizen turns up at an embassy abroad, what identification is required to prove entitlement to vote? Would a voting card suffice or would a passport or similar be required? Another issue for Ireland is that of logistics. Is people turning up at embassies a huge logistical issue? One or two of the witnesses gave statistics earlier in regard to the number of people involved and stated that the number is ever-increasing. Is that the pattern for all of the countries?

In Ireland, EU citizens have the right to vote in some local or European elections. Is there a similar facility available in Spain, Denmark, Cyprus and Estonia?

Before calling on other members to put their questions, I will ask our guests to respond to the questions thus far.

H.E. Mr. Niels Pultz

The Chairman and Deputy Crowe asked about the desire for changing the Danish constitution. There is no appetite for it because this has nothing to do with the right of the citizen to vote. Many would argue that it is a fundamental right to be able to vote somewhere. The problem is that amendment of the Danish constitution is a very cumbersome and difficult process. I will give a hint of how difficult it is. First, the Danish Parliament must pass a constitutional amendment. Second, following the next election, which could be called for that reason, there would be another vote in the parliament on exactly the same Bill. Third, a referendum must be held not later than six months after the second passing of the Bill in the Danish Parliament. An additional hindrance to be surmounted is that at least 40% of the electorate entitled to vote should vote in favour of the proposal. As such, if turnout is low there is a risk that the referendum will not be passed. This is one of the reasons there is no appetite to change the Danish constitution. It was last changed in 1953. While much of the constitution should be amended, the founding fathers of it ensured that this could not be done lightly. As I said, it is difficult to change it and there is no political appetite to do so. The matter has been discussed a couple of times but thus far the majority does not favour changing it. This is a hard rock which is impossible for us to surmount.

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

On Deputy Dooley's question, it depends on the province where the citizen was born or with which he or she has a special relationship because of residency. The citizen concerned will register in the special electoral roll-call of that province. The vote is deposited in the Spanish embassy in Dublin, which then sends it to the office of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which then sends it to the province in question.

So the individual concerned must establish a link with a particular province, or is it just a box-ticking exercise? For example, if a person decides to vote at his or her embassy, can he or she decide in advance of registering in which constituency he or she wishes to be registered, or is a particular methodology used to establish his or her entitlement to vote in a particular district?

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

That is pre-established because the person will be already registered in the electoral census of the province. This is provided for in our electoral register. On the question regarding identification, Spanish citizens hold identity cards. This is the main document for identification, although a passport may also be used. Logistics can be complicated, particularly when there are large numbers of citizens voting abroad. The offices of the consulate or the embassy have to be open during certain days for the exposure of lists, correction of lists and other electoral procedures, and on voting days. They must also guarantee security. The presence of representatives from the political parties is also foreseen. It requires a great deal of effort on the part of the embassy and the consulate but this, of course, is one of our missions.

There was also a question regarding Irish citizens in Spain, who can of course exercise a vote in local and European elections, provided they fulfil some conditions, such as being registered in the Spanish electoral census, being 18 years or older and having stated an intention to vote in the elections. One statement is considered permanent unless a person expresses a contrary view.

H.E. Mr. Mait Martinson

On a voting day, no action takes place outside our country, and voting can only take place in-country. All voting procedures abroad, either at an embassy or using Internet voting, would cease four days before the voting day. Deputy Dooley asked about the list system, which is pre-established. A voter permanently residing abroad must determine the electoral district for the election on the basis of a former place of residence in Estonia or a parent's or ancestor's place of residence. It is an automatic process that is very easily determined.

There are still rigid elements in our election process. At this stage, there are approximately 70,000 Estonian citizens living abroad in different states, and that includes residents in the US, Canada and Australia. Taking into account pre-voting at foreign missions, the turnout, as mentioned earlier by the Spanish ambassador, has been low over the past 20 years. It is approximately 5% of the people listed in the embassy. The embassy staff would be busy for two days, with one day at the weekend, leading to extra costs; the process may not be as effective as was hoped.

It seems i-voting is an exercise in names. It has been discussed and I have heard of the experience in Ireland. Electronic voting requires extra effort in approaching people and explaining how the process takes place over the Internet. There is no specific punching machine, for example, and in some places they work and in others they do not. Internet voting is used more often. I have seen articles in newspapers with headlines indicating how e-voting is failing again. E-voting in this case is the use of electronic voting machines, but in Estonia we use the Internet, so how can the Internet fail? If there is no Internet connection for a day, the voting can happen on the next day. There is a time period of ten days, as the process takes place ten to four days before the election day. A vote can be changed three or four times but the last vote, which is made four days before the election date, counts. There is also the possibility of a person physically polling on election day, as it can overturn a vote.

Could it overturn the electronic vote?

H.E. Mr. Mait Martinson

Yes.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos

Deputy Dooley addressed a question to all of us. There is a list system in my country and there is a requirement for a preceding duration of residence with regard to enrolment in the system. When somebody is registered, he or she remains on the list for the rest of his or her life, unless convicted by a court of a specific voting offence.

I thank the witnesses. The common exercise we are trying to achieve is to get the names of Cyprus, Ireland and Denmark off the European Commission list. It is fascinating to hear about the process in Estonia, which was quick off the mark with regard to electronic voting and using the Internet. It was certainly a regional leader in that respect. Unfortunately, having listened to the contributions, I am not quite sure what we in Ireland can learn. We do not use electronic voting, which is sad, given that in the largest democracy in the world, India, people are currently casting votes on computers. I have been a loser with the paper system, and at the time the formation of a Government was at stake as it depended on whether I or a Fianna Fáil candidate won. I am an advocate of electronic voting and I have always argued that if the Indians can do it, Ireland can do it. This is not a popular political position as people love the notion of lions consuming cubs, hyenas being eaten by lions, and the tension that goes with it. People love us as actors in a certain sense.

We have many different formulae. For example, the electoral register is a yearly compilation. The diaspora, from Australia to America, is probably unsurpassed. I know this is only guidance from the Commission but it is something to take seriously. The convention only made a recommendation with regard to voting for presidential elections, but the Commission has argued that national elections should be included in this process. We have far to go.

Estonia uses electronic voting, but how does it prevent the buying of votes? If a person has no privacy in casting a vote, how do we know organised groups are not buying votes? The traditional method, which we value, has a person casting a vote in secret. If people vote from a home computer, how can the privacy of the vote be secured? The representative of Denmark has indicated there will probably be no change so I do not know how it will get off the list. I do not know how Ireland will get off the list, given the complexities with which we must deal. The Spanish case is interesting as the process seems to be unbelievably generous. I am sure there are some people still voting from Western Sahara in Spanish elections, given where they come from.

However, Mr. Garrigues said that in the past the two major parties had a liberal attitude to this, but now the Spanish Migrants Association is asking for a review on the basis that turnout is so low. Perhaps he might elaborate on current thinking.

I do not know who will help us in the case of Northern Ireland. How does one decide who is a citizen with a vote from Northern Ireland, let alone America or Australia? Perhaps the committee might have a further meeting to discuss this issue.

Would the Deputy mind ceding to Senator Aideen Hayden because she must leave?

Absolutely; I will always cede to a lady.

I thank the Deputy. Our voting system is not easily adaptable to embracing either electronic or Internet voting. I wish to raise a number of issues relating to Estonia, Spain and Cyprus. The voting numbers appear to be low. Has there ever been an occasion when external voters influenced the outcome of an election? As Deputy Eric Byrne said, we had a constitutional convention and there was a great deal of support for extending the right to vote in presidential elections to citizens resident abroad. There are logistical issues because we have a large diaspora and, therefore, we are looking at extending rights to a substantial number of people. We elicited the views of 66 citizens and 33 parliamentarians on the issue. Spain and Estonia have extended citizens rights, while Denmark has a similar regime to ours. Is there popular support for these rights in Spain and Estonia? In countries where rights are not so liberal, for example, Cyprus and Denmark, is there much of a public clamour to have them extended? These rights are permanent in Spain, but I am not sure whether they are permanent in Estonia. A limited extension of voting rights was proposed for Irish citizens resident abroad, but the majority view was that there should be a time limit on them. In other words, citizens resident abroad for longer specified periods should not have the right to influence the outcome of an election.

I have referred to the Spanish Migrants Association which is lobbying on the issue of voting rights, but I am not sure on which side it is. Perhaps Mr. Garrigues might clarify the position for me.

My second question relates to permanency. In Cyprus, once someone has registered, that is it. Perhaps Spaniards are registered until they die. I was drawing a comparison with our system under which the register is compiled annually.

The issue the Commission is addressing is phenomenal for us because it argues in favour of electronic voting. Could external voting rights be implemented incrementally? Ireland has a limited number of embassies outside Europe, but we have an embassy in every member state which means that at least our citizens could physically attend these embassies. However, there is a European concern. Would we then create dual citizenship for Irish people abroad, given that, for example, in America or Australia we do not have sufficient embassies? The debate will continue because we have a long way to go.

I apologise for my absence at the beginning of the meeting, but I have read the submissions. I normally agree with my friend and colleague, Deputy Eric Byrne, but not on the issue of electronic voting. It stems from my belief that democracy is sacred. A certain ceremony goes with its history and fundamental aspects. Part of the ceremony is taking the trouble to vote. The importance of the vote is, in many ways, determined by the extent to which the voter is prepared to make the sacrifice to travel to a polling station to register it. I have travelled abroad to monitor elections in other countries. Holding up one's vote to be scrutinised by everybody is standard practice. I have not participated in a UN-sponsored election monitoring mission where somebody goes to a computer and decides that this is the way the vote is cast. A computer system has yet to be invented that cannot be hacked or cracked or in some way polluted. That is more likely to happen in the future. The vote is not secure in an electronic voting system. It is not necessarily our voting system; it is a fact of life. In the past 15 years an election achieved worldwide attention when an electronic voting system was used. It took a considerable time to come to a conclusion. A large population in a major power voted in that election. Between the long and the short of it, they would have been as well off if a simple ballot paper had been used in the old-fashioned way.

Under the Spanish system, approximately 1.6 million of its diaspora have the right to vote. That is not as significant a proportion of its total population as it would be in Ireland. The Irish diaspora would comprise a more significant proportion of the electorate, which could create constitutional dilemmas. The old adage of no taxation without representation would arise. The impact is much smaller proportionately in the Spanish system.

It is approximately 3% of the population, whereas the Irish diaspora would comprise 50% or 60%.

It could be more when one considers the number of recent emigrants to the United States and the United Kingdom. If one went as far back as the American Civil War and so on, it would have a huge impact on the voting system. There are difficulties in that regard.

With regard to Northern Ireland, an all-island system would be slightly different and it might be possible to come to an arrangement in the future as to whether representatives for Northern Ireland should be separately elected to the Seanad or whatever the case may be, owing to the proximity of the North, notwithstanding the history between both parts of the island and between us and our next-door neighbour, a relationship that has improved considerably in recent times.

Does the Deputy think voters in the North should vote in both Dáil and Westminster elections or should they opt for one or the other?

Rather than going for total immersion in the first instance, I would be inclined to use a variation of full voting rights. Northern Ireland citizens have been appointed to the Seanad, while on one occasion someone was elected to the House.

It was a good thing. The Northern Ireland representation to the Seanad was a very good thing from their point of view and our point of view. It brought into sharp focus the existence of a different point of view, from whatever viewpoint that comes, and I think that we have much to investigate in that particular area.

Let me discuss the Irish diaspora which stretches as far away as Brazil and Argentina, through the European Union obviously, Australia, New Zealand, in particular in North America, Canada and other countries. Therefore, it would be a huge operation to provide voting rights to the diaspora. How would the diaspora receive a service in return for their votes?

I am a little worried about allowing people to change their vote on the last day or so. I do not want to be political but the provision would obviously tempt people to exploit the situation. In certain circumstances the tendency would be - and one of my colleagues used the term - to buy votes which is an old fashioned tradition in some countries.

It is an old fashioned tradition in Ireland as well.

Of course I was obliquely referring to that.

It was buying drink for people and stuff like that. Did that never happen in the Deputy's day?

It was not the buying of drink that thwarted the will of the Irish people. It was the buying of votes in a different fashion altogether that swung the electoral system in favour of one or the other party, and we know that happened in some countries. The provision requires more thought. People have suggested that some economies have suffered dramatically as a result, and not only in Ireland, of the alleged promises or whatever made at election time by people in advance. The possibility of changing the vote-----

Is the Deputy saying that people say they will do one thing at election time and do something else when they get into government? God forbid if that happened.

I do not want it entirely restricted to one or all groups of people in this jurisdiction either. I would be quite happy to accommodate my colleague in any debate at any time and in any forum on that subject.

Today we are here to question witnesses.

I call the final questioner, Deputy Dara Murphy.

I apologise for being late but I had to attend a function along with Deputy Durkan so we were both engaged, unfortunately.

Acquis communautaire.

Yes. I have read the submissions. First, I am struck by the number of different systems. We have a different system here. The Commission is treading on interesting ground by trying to see how many different countries with many different systems operate. I am most interested in the Spanish system because it seems extremely generous so I shall ask the ambassador a couple of specific questions about the system. He referenced Spanish citizens. Do they have to maintain their citizenship of Spain when they are abroad in order to vote? Reference was made to links with Spain. In other words, must they maintain and hold a Spanish passport?

There is particular scope in Ireland in terms of how open Spain is to allowing people from other European countries to vote in Spain. We have not engaged in that part of the debate here when talking about the Irish diaspora. We, like Spain, have a situation where people can be fourth or fifth generation and consider themselves to be Irish-Americans, for example. I am not sure to what extent they view themselves as more Irish than American and, therefore, one must decide at what point of the graph one is on. This is an extremely difficult issue for Ireland given that we have in America, for example, ten times the population of this island who would claim to be Irish-American. Is it just EU citizens who can vote in Spanish elections? The ambassador defined it, without being flippant or simplistic, that people just had to express an interest and prove they were European. Do they need a residence in Spain? Are other circumstances involved?

The ambassador outlined good statistics on Spanish people voting in European and Spanish elections. Does he have data on the number of people from other European countries who vote? I assume that if people go to the trouble of registering to vote in Spain then the number must be reasonably high.

As the Chairman will know, a lot of us are canvassing at the moment. European citizens can vote in local and European elections but not in a general election here. Spain employs a different system. Go raibh maith agat.

I shall ask the ambassador to respond first and he can also make concluding remarks.

H.E. Mr. Javier Garrigues Flórez

I would like to make a general comment which can serve as a concluding observation. I speak for all of us on this side of the table when I say that our intention in coming here was not to propose our own models as examples. The idea was that in sharing our experiences we could help the Irish debate on this very important issue. We are not trying to influence the debate in any way. When we made comparisons we understood that the circumstances are very different in Ireland than in our respective countries.

Regarding the question on the change introduced in 2011 with an amendment to our electoral law in Spain, previous to the amendment every Spanish citizen living abroad automatically received a ballot. Since 2011 there must be a request from the elector to vote. However, the Spanish citizen living abroad is never disenfranchised. They automatically receive ex officio from Spain a form that they must fill in to express their will to vote. They receive that automatically and then they only have to return the form and the electoral documentation will be sent to them by mail. The Spanish citizen is never disenfranchised and can vote from abroad.

Such a situation has resulted in a reduction in the turnout, as I explained, from approximately 25% down to 5%. This is why there is questioning in Spain on whether the requirement reduced participation and what can be done about the situation. The question is how to balance the need to guarantee security, secrecy of the vote or ballot and the stimulus to participate. When ballots were sent automatically there was a risk, at least theoretically speaking, that those votes might be used in the wrong way. For example, a whole family could be forced by their paterfamilias to vote in a certain way, etc. With this other system it is much safer and the guarantee of secrecy is more respected. As I said, it is a difficult balance and that is why the issue is being discussed in Spain at this stage.

The question was asked whether, on any occasion, the migrant vote had made a difference and the answer is "Yes". In Spain it can tip the balance due to the large number of voters living abroad. Sometimes one must wait for the migrant vote to be recounted in order to make sure the result of the election is final.

The right to vote is permanent and is never lost. A Spanish citizen who lives abroad never loses his or her right to vote. They only have to express the will to do so and they will be allowed. They are never, as I said, disenfranchised.

With regards Spanish citizenship and the right to vote, in some cases, as in Latin America, there is dual nationality for Spanish citizens.

They can vote in their country of residence and in their country of origin. We are talking about EU citizens and Spanish citizens living in EU countries. We are also talking about EU citizens living in Spain. They can vote but they must be registered on the local register of inhabitants in the Spanish electoral census. Once they are registered, are 18 years of age and have made a general statement that they want to participate in elections, which is considered a valid statement if they do not make a statement to the contrary, there is no restriction on them voting.

H. E. Mr. Niels Pultz

A question was put to me on whether there is discussion in Denmark about changing the situation for Danish citizens living abroad. To some extent, there is discussion about having dual citizenship and somehow the two issues have been combined. There is some movement in Denmark to recognise dual citizenship under certain circumstances. That can be done without changing our constitution but we must change our constitution to address the question of having a right to vote while living abroad, and there is no appetite for that. We presented our position to the Commission a few years ago and there has been no reaction from the Commission to that message last January.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

I will start with the question from Senator Hayden on whether the outcome has been influenced. I recall at least two occasions. We have a parliamentary threshold of 5% and in one case the outcome was positive, with the party making it to the parliament, and on the other occasion the party did not make it but hopes were high.

In respect of domestic debates, occasionally people say that those who have the right to vote should pay taxes and serve the country, such as through military service. With regard to securing votes and the ceremonial element of democracy raised by Deputy Durkan, we see ourselves as being out there discovering something that might be questioned in some corners. We apply the approach of guilty unless proven otherwise to Internet voting systems. How many years or how many cycles will it take to convince people it is secure? So far, it has been ten years and six elections. We will see. Do I exclude it? Who can exclude anything?

Are there are instances of convicted fraud during elections?

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

No, issues have been raised by both Deputies. There are cases of people assisting an old mother or an old grandmother-----

We would never do that.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

-----taking her to the ballot booth, her not having glasses and asking what name she should pick.

That sounds like it.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

A destination was mentioned where electronic voting did not bring a good result but I think it is electrical voting in a country I think we all know around the year 2000. Electrical machines were used and, after punching it,-----

It did not work. There were hanging chads.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

It was electric, not electronic voting.

It was pneumatic.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

I fully concur with my Spanish colleague that we are just here to inform.

Have there been any allegations of fraud where the grandmother may have been deceased at the time?

Presumably the card ceases to be active once a death certificate has been issued.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

Yes.

Technically, anybody can look and see how someone is voting on a computer. If I am being given money by my colleague, he will want to see me vote for the person I am getting paid for. Is that easily done?

If he is in the room with you, that could be done. But he could change the vote once you leave the room. He could change his vote and sell it to me.

That is true and he can also get money from some other fellow. Some people might be tempted by the money. That indicates a weakness in the Estonian system. There is no absolute privacy, whereas in the traditional system someone can vote behind a curtain, alone, and can fold the paper and put it in the box. Nobody can interfere with that.

H. E. Mr. Mait Martinson

I take the point but in my introductory remarks I mentioned that Internet voting stops prior to the election date. Afterwards, if people are unsure whether their votes were influenced by other people, they can post a physical vote on election day. That system covers the hypothetical point raised.

As the Spanish ambassador said, we are here to listen and to be informed about what goes on elsewhere.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos

Regarding the questions posed by Senator Hayden on the extent to which voter support is influencing others, it has not been calculated how much external voters influence others because the ballots are mixed with home constituencies after being sent to the capital. This is done to preserve anonymity, confidentiality and privacy. Being a small country with a large diaspora, like Ireland, it is possible for such an eventuality to take place despite the relatively small number of expatriates showing interest in voting in Cyprus. I share the overall views expressed by our Spanish colleague. This exercise is very useful yet, as the presentations and the debate that followed show, each country has its own special circumstances. For this reason, the issue remains within national competence.

I notice the ambassador referred to recent legislation being adopted to further facilitate the participation of Turkish Cypriots in European elections.

That is relevant as a form of outreach. Sixteen years ago the Good Friday Agreement was a signal to Northern nationalists and unionists that they would have more of a say about this jurisdiction and the Dáil and Seanad, but that has not happened. Mr. Stavrinos said that many Turkish Cypriots have recently left Cyprus. Is this a form of outreach to those Turkish Cypriot citizens?

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos

It is a combination of both. The Turkish Cypriots who live in the occupied part of Cyprus are not allowed by the illegal regime there to participate in elections which concern the totality of the island. To create additional burdens, they sometimes claim there are administrative restrictions. For this reason, the government of the Republic of Cyprus adopted this recent legislation to remove any possible technical difficulty. People with the identity card of a Cypriot citizen are registered automatically in the voting list. To avoid the difficulty of crossing the ceasefire line there will be ballot boxes at all the crossing points and identification will be very much facilitated. These are practical measures to help those on the island and abroad to easily participate in the process.

I thank the ambassador and all our ambassadors for participating in this afternoon's session. It was very informative. We learned much and it will help to inform our deliberations on this very important issue. I thank the ambassadors for their time. We are used to seeing many of them here and no doubt we will see them again in the future on a related issue.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.35 p.m. and adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 April 2014.
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