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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2005

Tax Reliefs and Exemptions: Presentation.

Item No. 3 on our agenda today is a review of tax reliefs and exemption for high earners, on which there will be a discussion with the Combat Poverty Agency. Members will recall that in recent weeks we heard from the Department of Finance, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, the Institute of Taxation and the Arts Council on this matter. We are now joined by the Combat Poverty Agency, which is represented by Ms Helen Johnston, director, and Dr. Jonathan Healy, policy and research analyst.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome our guests and thank them for attending. Before the discussion begins, I should advise that while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. I remind members that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or the Houses. I also remind our guests that the letter of invitation indicated that the joint committee would concentrate on the rationale behind the submission, which we have already received directly from the Department of Finance.

We will commence with a short presentation by Ms Johnston, which will be followed by an open discussion with the members of the committee.

Ms Helen Johnston

Combat Poverty would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to make a statement on the review of tax reliefs. For those who may not be familiar with the Combat Poverty Agency, we are a State advisory agency which develops and promotes evidence-based policies and measures to combat poverty in Ireland. As indicated by the Chairman, we have already made a submission to the Department of Finance and I understand members have received copies of it. I will outline the rationale behind our submission and Mr. Healy will summarise our main recommendations.

Combat Poverty understands the original rationale for introducing a range of tax expenditures and reliefs aimed at encouraging economic activity in certain industries and sectors of the economy. However, we have some concerns about these schemes, particularly from a taxation equity and income distribution perspective. Our first concern relates to income inequality. We know that countries with highly unequal income distribution have high levels of poverty, exclusion and social alienation. By comparison, countries with more equal income distribution have lower levels of poverty. Ireland has relatively high levels of poverty and an unequal income distribution. Tax reliefs generally go to the better-off and make the income distribution more unequal. Thus, the tax and welfare system must work harder in Ireland to redistribute resources more equitably in Irish society.

We believe State resources should go to those who need them most. This is not the case with tax reliefs and exemptions for high earners. While there may have been a rationale for tax reliefs to stimulate the economy and employment in the late 1980s and early 1990s, this is not the case now. Thus, these tax reliefs can be a deadweight and subsidise activity that may have occurred anyway.

We believe in the principle of equity and that people should pay tax in proportion to their ability to pay. This makes for a progressive tax system. Tax reliefs and expenditures contravene this principle, providing reliefs to people who are in a financial position to pay tax. For example, given that lower income groups pay a higher proportion of their incomes in the form of indirect taxes, such as VAT and excise duties, every effort should be made to ensure that taxes on low incomes are kept as low as possible. The provision of tax reliefs results in a reduced tax base and hence the need for higher tax rates, which is contrary to the equity principle.

There is a Government requirement to assess the impact of Government policies and proposals for their impact on poverty. This is the so-called poverty proofing. Many tax reliefs do not benefit people living in poverty and some may adversely affect people living on low incomes or in disadvantaged areas by, for example, driving up the price of property. Combat Poverty believes the tax system should be fair and transparent. Many tax reliefs contravene this principle. For example, details on the cost of a number of tax expenditures are not available and information on the numbers benefiting is extremely limited.

Having outlined our rationale, I will now ask my colleague, Jonathan Healy, to outline our main recommendations.

Further recommendations are included in our submission but for the sake of brevity I will just outline five or six.

Tax reliefs are inequitable so they should be used sparingly. Such reliefs violate many of the canons of taxation, particularly the principle of equity, which states that people should pay tax in proportion to their ability to pay. Tax reliefs provide high income individuals with opportunities to reduce their effective taxable income substantially. This is at odds with the principles of both vertical and horizontal equity and leads to reduced progressivity in the tax system. Furthermore, the difficulty in targeting tax reliefs effectively means they may be used for a purpose different from that originally intended, as has been noted in several tax strategy group papers. There are also efficiency concerns. The existence of tax reliefs can be held to promote an inefficient allocation of economic resources. It is on these grounds that tax reliefs which are economically unjustified should be abolished.

We believe in continuing base-broadening measures. The decision in 1998 to introduce a ceiling on capital allowances that can be offset against non-rental income was welcome. If tax reliefs are evaluated as economically justifiable — for example, those relating to child care facilities — measures that broaden the tax base or those that can be termed "anti-avoidance" should be built into the design of the expenditure scheme. Where a given scheme is considered to have some economic justification but where there are concerns that the level of free-riders under the scheme is currently high, the Department of Finance should consider the option of introducing further caps or ceilings on the maximum exemptions and reliefs permissible under the stated scheme. Clearly, ceilings will need to be chosen carefully so that there remains some incentive for the prospective investor to participate in the scheme.

We believe that minimum effective tax rates for high earners should be considered. Combat Poverty recommends that the value of tax reliefs for higher earners be curtailed. This could be achieved by standard rating all discretionary tax reliefs and setting a minimum effective tax rate for earners above a certain income threshold. Such a minimum tax could apply to those on high incomes and would ensure that everyone pays a reasonable amount of tax. In addition, such a scheme would not interfere with tax incentive schemes provided a carefully chosen minimum income tax rate is selected. An alternative to the minimum tax rate might be to consider measures similar to those introduced by the Minister in the 1998 budget, which were based on cumulative permissible limits.

A key point is that tax reliefs should be subjected to economic evaluation prior to introduction. Given the difficulties that exist in removing a tax relief once in place, it is crucial that tax expenditures receive a thorough and far-reaching examination, matching those which face Exchequer expenditure proposals. Combat Poverty argues that only those tax expenditures that are fully quantifiable, both in terms of numbers of beneficiaries and forgone costs, should be considered for continuation or introduction. Such schemes must be evaluated using formal economic evaluation techniques, such as social cost benefit analysis, and the decision to continue with a given scheme must be based on objective evidence based evaluations. Transparency and continuous monitoring of the schemes are critical to efficient outcomes.

As Dr. Tim Callan put it in his paper yesterday at the ESRI budget perspectives conference, "There is a need for a more systematic, regular review of tax reliefs than has taken place heretofore. Reviews of this type form part of international "best practice" on tax expenditures." Cost benefit analysis assesses both the positive and negative economic and social impacts of reliefs before introducing such schemes. While data on identified costs may be difficult to obtain or quantify, policy makers should err on the side of caution when considering the introduction of relief schemes in the absence of rigorous evaluations of same. An information deficit should not be used as justification for not conducting an evaluation.

Tax reliefs should result in social gain and the poverty impact of tax expenditures should be considered in evaluations. This includes an assessment of a scheme's contribution towards the achievement of national anti-poverty strategy targets, addressing inequalities, particularly among vulnerable groups, as well as helping to prevent people falling into poverty and ameliorating the effects of poverty and deprivation. A more socially desirable outcome would enhance the attractiveness and feasibility of certain tax-incentive schemes. Consideration should be given to restructuring schemes that demonstrate economic benefits but are currently lacking in strong social gain.

Tax reliefs should become part of a strategic and planned approach. Ad hoc or unplanned relief schemes should be avoided as a rule. If possible, reliefs should be linked to some form of formal planning, for example, spatial planning, where there is a demonstrated need or benefit. In the case of the urban renewal scheme, for example, local authorities were obliged to prepare integrated area plans in order to proceed with the scheme. This was a positive move and helped to ensure that an excess of poorly planned projects was avoided because of the urban planning exercise.

Tax reliefs play a considerable part in reducing the fairness of the taxation system, which is the main mechanism to ensure a more equal society. Ireland now has the economic capacity to achieve such a goal. Combat Poverty argues that all proposed or existing tax reliefs must be subjected to rigorous economic evaluation. Only those tax expenditures that demonstrate a clear net gain to the economy and wider society should be continued.

Combat Poverty urges policy makers to ensure that the social dividend of the Celtic tiger boom period is not diluted by such reliefs for high earners. Instead, efforts must continue to widen the tax base, lower the tax burden and make work pay, particularly for low income working households.

I thank the CPA for its submission, with which I am in almost full agreement. I am not sure whether that means the CPA has got it right.

If one was sitting in the Visitors' Gallery, one might have begun to see the problem. We talk about evaluation before we enter into commitments. We have not designed a system in the Oireachtas where that happens. If it happens, it does not involve us as the people who vote on it. We are currently debating the proper place of tax reliefs with regard to health and nursing homes and are having difficulty getting to grips with the issue. No doubt we will be faced with 350 or so decisions to be made in a few weeks and there is no obligation on the Minister for Finance or his advisers to bring forward any of this evaluation. The key issue is that this committee needs to endorse the principle that there must be prior evaluation and that transparent data must be produced year on year that show what is happening.

I fully agree with the agency that we should cap what any individual can derive from tax reliefs. I do not agree with the proposal that we should have a minimum tax rate over a certain figure. We can be just as effective through the cap. When the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners was here, he impressed me with his description of the complexity of running a dual tax system, which would result from that proposal. If the Combat Poverty Agency intends to keep this as a recommendation in its policy papers, it should sit down with the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners and square off his genuine concerns, which I found convincing. I refer to item 6.8 of the submission, which suggests extending tax relief to non-profit organisations such as not-for-profit nursing homes and child care facilities. The reason for tax relief is that either the Government is of the view there is a market failure and the service is not being provided or that the State is unable, or it may be undesirable for it, to manage such services and that it is preferable to have community-based and private involvement in some cases.

Will the delegation cite models of tax relief being used to seed social enterprise from which Ireland could learn? It is an interesting concept whereby the State would pump prime not-for-profit delivery in certain spheres and I would be keen on such a model. Recent experience has demonstrated that if the motive for going into the nursing home sector is all about return for the investors rather than a caring agenda, problems arise and management may not have sufficient understanding of the business. There is nothing wrong with investing in this business but those who do so may not be equipped with the proper approach and skills. I am interested to hear how that proposal in the submission could be developed. The submission is very logical and well argued and I would be in broad agreement with it.

Ms Johnston

We believe that evaluation is critical because taxpayers' money is being used and sometimes there is no accountability in terms of the full cost in respect of information as to those who will benefit. The proposals must undergo a rigorous assessment within Departments before expenditure is allowed. I am aware that this is not the way the system has worked regarding tax relief but we question the reason the system should not work this way for tax relief. Expenditure of moneys has not always been held to account until further down the road when overruns occur and the cost is much higher than expected. It is good practice to evaluate these schemes and a means to do this must be found rather than saying it is not the way the system works.

The minimum tax rate is our proposal as a means of addressing some of these issues but we are not held to it. Some tax relief issues could be addressed through standard rating or reduction in tax reliefs. We suggest that the reduction in the availability of tax reliefs would mean less need for a minimum tax rate. The ESRI has done some research on this matter which seems to indicate there may be some difficulties with it. We suggest some other issues could be addressed which would help.

Dr. Healy will speak about the suggested models. The State is supporting both community and private providers in some sectors. In our view, the community has a role to provide some of these facilities, for example, in the area of child care, and this should be supported. Models for the provision of that support should be examined.

On evaluation and review of the schemes, the ESRI budget perspectives raised the point yesterday that many other European countries have a legal obligation to conduct ex ante evaluations and to review them on an ongoing basis. Our organisation would favour this approach and suggests it be included in legislation.

On the issues of market failure and other models, I agree other models in other countries should be examined. I am not aware of other models but the not-for-profit area should be targeted in order to reap the benefits of the social gain from these tax expenditures.

I thank Deputy Burton for allowing me to speak before her as I must leave early.

I join Deputies Burton, Bruton and Catherine Murphy in welcoming the delegation from the Combat Poverty Agency. I commend their submission, which is a very important contribution. The CPA is a strong voice for the disadvantaged in our society. I welcome the fact that the submission is particularly strong in regard to poverty proofing. It also calls for continuous monitoring and a rolling evaluation or review of the tax system, which is to be welcomed.

I have a question regarding section 4.4 of the submission, which deals with the low level of property taxation. It points out the inequitable effect of property-based taxation. Will the delegation elaborate on that point? Does it consider the situation of the chronic housing shortage has in some way been contributed to by the net effect of property-based tax reliefs? Has it had a further deleterious effect on what is already a very difficult and unsatisfactory situation, especially for people on low incomes and those on fixed earnings?

Many of these property-based tax reliefs have encouraged speculative investment, which tends to increase or act as an inflationary impulse on the price of housing, particularly in the apartment sector and in the smaller two and three-bedroomed house sector. I agree it is worrying from a low income perspective.

Ms Johnston

The question of whether property should attract tax relief is a bigger issue and we have made proposals on it in the past.

Like the other members, I welcome the presentation made by the delegation and thank its members for attending.

Section 3.5 of the delegation's submission states that the property-based tax reliefs, the focus of this review, equate to annual tax expenditures of approximately €2.3 billion. The magnitude of this subject is obvious.

When the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners attended this committee some time ago, he stated that all tax reliefs, which include personal allowances and so on, amounted to about €8 billion. Has the delegation been able to obtain a breakdown of the figure of €2.3 billion? This committee has found it very difficult to find out the cost of the tax expenditures. Any breakdown which the delegation could provide would be potentially useful to the committee.

The Combat Poverty Agency's remit under the anti-poverty strategy is to act as an adviser to the Government. In that context and with respect to tax expenditures, is the Department of Finance or any other Department obliged to consult the agency about the impact of tax expenditure schemes and their relationship to poverty? It is extraordinary that these schemes, which cost €2.3 billion per year, have enormously beneficial effects for the investors. In the context of the national anti-poverty strategy, is the Combat Poverty Agency consulted, would it expect to be consulted or has it sought to be consulted about these schemes? As Ms Johnston was present in the Visitors' Gallery, she will have heard our earlier discussion. A significant change in health policy is proposed, which would attract more investment in the private health sector through increasing tax breaks. Has the Combat Poverty Agency had the opportunity to consider the impact of this proposal in terms of distribution and the impact on poverty?

The Combat Poverty Agency indicated that it envisages the possibility of capping or standard rating. Does it have a preference between these options? Is it aware of any research? Property-based tax breaks can be dealt with in a few different ways. We could end them or limit their duration. The easiest options would clearly be either capping or standard rating. Does the agency have a technical preference between those options?

At present, extensive tax breaks are offered for building additional child care facilities with a view to generating additional supply and the same applies to nursing homes. Is that extra supply available throughout the community or is it geared exclusively to people in the private sector, who are likely to be better off and be able to pay €200 per week for child care, or have the child care facility tax breaks been used for the provision of community-based child care or facilities for children who experience poverty? Among the objectives of the national anti-child poverty strategy are ending child poverty and providing access for children who are poor. I could ask the same question on nursing homes, some of which are situated in very remote locations and afford those living there little opportunity for independence. The conditions of the tax break do not seem to involve any location issues which affect the independence of older people who may enter those homes.

Ms Johnston

I will take a number of those questions and Dr. Healy will take the rest. Dr. Healy can answer the question about the €2.3 billion because he has some technical details.

Regarding our remit on the national anti-poverty strategy, Departments have no obligation to consult us, nor, by and large, do they do so. However, a review of poverty proofing is ongoing. We have made a submission in which we have suggested that we should have a role, possibly a statutory role, in reviewing poverty proofing proposals to give us the kind of role the Deputy suggested. They would be obliged to consult us in poverty proofing. That is what we suggested in our submission and it is not how it is at present.

The Combat Poverty Agency annual budget is provided by the State. What does it amount to?

Ms Johnston

Just under €5 million.

This indicates that the expertise of the Combat Poverty Agency costs the State €5 million per year. However, no Departments ask for its views on broader issues affecting distribution between the well off and the less well off.

Ms Johnston

This does not specifically happen on tax reliefs. We work very closely with the office for social inclusion in the Department of Social and Family Affairs. This work focuses on the national anti-poverty strategy more generally by monitoring specific policy proposals. We also work quite closely with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on local government social inclusion strategies and with the Department of Health and Children on social inclusion, primary care and access to services.

The Deputy also referred to health issues. A group within the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive is looking at the anti-poverty strategy. It has a number of sub-groups considering information on children's health to which we are party. However, it operates as a working group within the Department.

I will let Dr. Healy address the question as to technical preferences between standard rating and capping. He may also wish to comment on child care. We have done some work with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on its initiatives on targeting child care facilities and national development plan expenditure on disadvantaged areas. While it was an aspiration in the plan, it did not necessarily follow through as a reality. We have been monitoring the number of facilities provided and available to disadvantaged children and communities. It is difficult to assess because while a facility can be provided in a disadvantaged community, we need to know who is using it. We have sought the information directly from the Department and the matter is being reviewed. However, it is at an early stage.

We were asked whether the overall costs had been disaggregated. I am aware of some papers the tax strategy group of the Department of Finance published in which a number of the costs were disaggregated. However, as the Deputy can probably guess, the data for a number of the schemes are incomplete. We do not have data on the numbers of beneficiaries because of automatic entitlements to some of the tax expenditure schemes and on the expenditure, the forgone costs. While some disaggregation is available, it is not as much as we would like to see.

Is the Combat Poverty Agency broadly satisfied that €2.3 billion is the annual cost of property-based tax reliefs?

That was the cost in the particular year, either 2002 or 2003. This means the forgone tax revenue was in the region of 20%. We could broaden the tax base by approximately 20% if we closed most of the tax expenditure schemes.

We do not have very strong views on the issue of capping versus standard rating. Both have pluses and minuses. As a long-term measure, capping has a number of benefits from a poverty perspective. As a short-term measure, standard rating will be good in terms of broadening the tax base, etc. We would not have a very strong issue with either option. Perhaps capping would have more benefits from a low income perspective.

Ms Johnston

To outline where we are coming from, if each of these schemes were reviewed individually, we could then decide on the best method to curtail them. In some cases we would want to standard rate them — for example, that relating to mortgage relief — while in other areas we might want to cap. It is not a case of one size fits all.

The other issue about which I would like to comment is the location of nursing homes. I agree with the Deputy in that regard. The Combat Poverty Agency has issued recommendations about the need to consider spatial planning when tax incentive schemes are being put in place. The agency has recommended that nursing home facilities and child care subvention programmes such as the equal opportunities child care programme should be targeted at the areas of most disadvantage.

I agree with most of what has been said. The committee has invited a mixture of groups to attend its meetings to discuss tax incentive schemes. At the committee's last meeting, for example, a delegation defended the retention of a set of tax breaks. It is useful to meet such delegations as well as those which represent people who do not tend to benefit from tax reliefs.

It is unfortunate that the insufficient availability of child care has been tackled mainly by means of tax breaks. That approach has produced unequal results because it depends on the desire of people to avail of the incentives. There is adequate provision of child care in certain areas but that is not the case in other areas, even though demand exists, because people have not availed of the relevant tax incentives. People in many areas cannot afford the prices being demanded in the child care market — the figure of €200 per week has been mentioned. Has the Combat Poverty Agency been asked to put a package together to ensure that the supply of child care is commensurate with demand in all areas? Does the agency believe that tax breaks benefit those who provide the fixed assets? Some of those who run child care facilities have argued that providing child care facilities is quite labour intensive. Does the agency think that tax incentive schemes could be offered in a more equal way?

I agree with the point made by the Combat Poverty Agency about the location of nursing homes. Those who are incarcerated, more or less, in nursing homes are afforded very little opportunity to have any kind of normal interaction, for example by going to a shop. I use the word "incarcerated" because the people in question need to be transported, etc.

The agency spoke about its evaluation of the tax package. Has it put together a model of the elements which should comprise a proper evaluation of the package that takes into account the need for spatial planning? If not, is it in a position to do so? It is quite difficult to evaluate some of the elements in question because some of them, like the quality of life of those who are living in nursing homes, are quite intangible. I was pleased to hear the representatives of the agency say that the way things have always been done is not necessarily the best way to do things. People tend to be quite defensive about admitting that there is a crisis, which makes it more difficult to resolve it. We should put together a model that prevents us having to undertake another review in several years' time. Problems which are eminently predictable can be overcome if we organise our planning in an entirely different way.

Ms Johnston

The straight answer to the Deputy's second question is that while we do not have an off-the-package model of evaluation, we can devise one. Some of the work we have done in the past has been based on such a model. When the Combat Poverty Agency was involved in the early planning of the urban renewal scheme, its suggestions that the scheme should be pursued as part of an integrated planning process and that the projects to be funded should demonstrate some social gain and be of benefit to people in disadvantaged areas and vulnerable groups were taken on board. That model could be used again. Although social inclusion is one of the four main objectives of the national development plan, there are often no criteria or indicators of a social nature to measure whether it is being achieved. The agency has worked hard to include social indicators in the monitoring of the national development plan. That is another model that could be used again. The agency has used a certain methodology to identify disadvantaged areas and groups throughout the country. The agency can design a form of evaluation to take the elements mentioned by Deputy Murphy into account if it is asked to do so.

The provision of child care, which was mentioned by Deputy Catherine Murphy, involves more than the placement of children in child care facilities. We should also consider early childhood education in this context, as the developmental needs of children need to be to the forefront as an important part of child care provision. The Combat Poverty Agency has not said that the child care sector, which is considerably under-resourced, should not be funded by the private sector through tax reliefs per se. It believes that the incentives in question should have a social component. They should be used for social gain and should be targeted at disadvantaged areas.

The Combat Poverty Agency has made clear that the approach to be adopted in respect of the demand for child care should not involve tax reliefs. It opposes such an approach because it would not benefit disadvantaged communities. It has suggested other ways of meeting demand, involving the family income supplement and child benefit systems. The agency has also suggested the universal provision of early education for children aged three and four to address some of the needs in question.

The Combat Poverty Agency has concentrated in recent months on addressing the problems in the child care sector by proposing measures aimed at the demand side. It recently compiled a policy statement in that regard. Ms Johnston spoke about the social component of the tax incentive schemes. It is fair to say that the availability of child care and the demand for it are not in equilibrium in many areas, including disadvantaged areas. It is obvious that a priority target should be to increase supply in such areas. The social gain that accrues from the tax breaks associated with child care supply can be increased by setting aside a certain portion — perhaps 20% — of child care places for low income households. A similar system is used in the social and affordable housing scheme.

I welcome the delegation from the Combat Poverty Agency and commend it on its presentation. The agency referred to the review of tax reliefs and exemptions on page 12 of its submission to the Department of Finance. It recommended that the current review of such schemes should be extended to include tax expenditure as well as property-based schemes. It referred in particular to tax relief on investment in films, the artists' tax relief and the stallion relief. Does the agency believe the three reliefs in question should be abolished? The joint committee heard from a deputation last week that made the case for the retention of the artists' tax relief. It has not yet heard from representatives of the thoroughbred industry, although it may yet do so. Does the agency believe that the abolition of the incentives would lead to more funding being made available at the lower end of the scale in the area of tax relief?

Ms Johnston

The agency believes that such tax reliefs should be evaluated. They were introduced for a particular purpose and should be reviewed to determine whether this purpose is still valid, how much they cost and who benefits from expenditure on them. On the basis of that information, a decision could be taken on whether the rationale has changed and the reliefs and exemptions should be abolished, whether the rationale has changed somewhat and some conditions should be added, for example, in terms of duration, capping or standard rating, or whether they are still valid for the purpose for which they were introduced and should continue. The Combat Poverty Agency is not arguing that reliefs and exemptions should be abolished or retained across the board but is rather calling for them to be reviewed against some objective criteria and a decision taken on that basis.

The Combat Poverty Agency supports the current review process.

Ms Johnston

Yes.

I thank Ms Johnston and Dr. Healy for their contributions, as well as for the submissions received in advance of the meeting. As indicated earlier, the Department has received approximately 80 submissions on this issue. Of these, the joint committee selected approximately half a dozen for discussion with a view to hearing a broad cross-section of views from opponents and supporters of tax reliefs and exemptions, including those who benefit from them.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 October 2005.

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