JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 12 Apr 2006

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputy Bruton and Senator O'Toole. Are the draft minutes of the meeting of 22 March 2006 agreed? Agreed. Further correspondence has been received on National Toll Roads and Tralee Beef and Lamb arising from correspondence at the last meeting. We will postpone dealing with these matters because Senator O'Toole and Deputy Ned O'Keeffe are not present.

The first item in the schedule of correspondence is document No. 339 regarding hire purchase agreements. I propose we note the correspondence and members can use it as they see fit. The correspondence arises from my question to Ms Mary O'Dea, Director of Consumer Affairs, regarding hire purchase companies that do not issue annual statements to their customers. The reply confirms that there is no legal requirement to send annual statements. Many people have hire purchase arrangements for cars and it is an outrage that they do not receive statements on an annual basis. The companies should do so even if it is not a requirement.

Deputy P. McGrath

Would it be appropriate to write to the Minister asking him to bring it to the attention of the Financial Regulator? The Financial Regulator could then issue a direction.

Chairman

A statutory instrument could be used.

Deputy P. McGrath

We should check what is required and ask the Minister to act. I have come across cases of people who do not know what they owe. I have also come across people who have paid off and then discover they are required to pay the full amount, which is outrageous. There should be more regulation in this sector.

Chairman

We will agree to forward this correspondence to the Minister for Finance for his detailed observations and proposals to rectify the matter. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is a letter to the clerk from the chief executive of the Financial Regulator's office regarding correspondence arising from the meeting of 15 February 2006. I propose we note this acknowledgement letter of one sentence. The next item is an e-mail with an attachment of an update on EU scrutiny. This does not arise on today's agenda but will feature on our work programme for the coming year. The next item is another e-mail to the clerk of the committee concerning EU scrutiny. This will be addressed when we deal with other issues of EU scrutiny.

The next item concerns the annual meeting of the European Parliament's committee on budgets on 21 June. As Chairman I am invited or somebody may attend on my behalf. The committee should be represented and we will seek a travel proposal and costings. This will be discussed under the next item, travel proposals, on today's agenda.

The next item is a letter to the Chairman from the Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

The Chairman skipped one item, a letter from Deputy Carey. This is the next item in sequence.

Chairman

I apologise. I am conscious of this item of correspondence because I come from Portlaoise. Deputy Carey highlights the case of the Association of Retired Prison Officers. Its members have a grievance because allowances for those who retired before a certain date are not pensionable. In the case of those who retired after a certain date, the same allowances are pensionable.

Deputy Nolan

Can we add this to the work programme and invite the association to make a presentation?

Chairman

Depending on the retirement date, an allowance is pensionable for some and not for others.

Deputy P. McGrath

Does a similar issue arise for the Garda Síochána?

Chairman

Yes, to an extent.

Deputy P. McGrath

There was a cut-off point at which allowances were not pensionable.

Chairman

When we meet the delegation it will maintain there is a significant difference between the retired prison officers' allowance and the allowance for former members of the Garda Síochána.

Deputy P. McGrath

I agree with the proposal to invite this group to the committee. We should check if other groups will seek to make a similar presentation. If that is the case all such groups should make presentations on the same day rather than dragging the process out over a long period. If one group makes a presentation we open the door to a range of other groups to seek a hearing.

Chairman

We will make inquiries before we finalise any invitation. We will agree to invite them but we will not set a date yet.

The next item is a letter to the Chairman from the Minister for Social and Family Affairs inviting attendance at the national pensions review in Dublin Castle on 5 May 2006. All Deputies have received the invitation and are free to attend if they wish.

The next item concerns the decentralisation of FÁS head office staff. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, attended the last committee meeting and discussed the matter at length.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I have not had the opportunity to peruse the minutes of the meeting. I accept the Official Report of the exchanges. I do not know how long the Official Report of that meeting has been available to members but I wish to examine it in further detail. Important questions are raised by the transfer of FÁS to Birr. I do not question the principle of the proposition per se which is dear to the heart of the Chairman, the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance. There is significant interest in the financial matters of the Government and committee make-up. I want to reflect the concerns that arise on the status of the proposal, that is the assurance we have been given time and again that the proposed decentralisation of civil servants and staff of the various agencies including FÁS is to be voluntary. There is ample evidence this is not the case in the proposed FÁS head office transfer to Birr. Transfer arrangements are being linked to promotional prospects. Concerns must arise for those for whom the proposition is neither attractive nor tenable. People have roots in communities in the greater Dublin area, their homes established, their children in education and other elements of family life that hold a person in place. What is the position on their promotional prospects in their chosen career? The Minister has not assuaged the concerns of SIPTU which has represented the FÁS workers so effectively since the issue first became public. Neither has he assuaged my concerns nor those of other Members of these Houses. The matter has not been dealt with by the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon’s presence here on the last occasion. Real and important matters must be addressed and I propose we seek the presence of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, who should address the matter here. This is fundamental to the proposed decentralisation. It was a central tenet argued by the then Minister, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, on the introduction of the proposed 10,000 relocations three budgets ago. This is a worrying development that may apply much wider than FÁS. Today we see extended industrial action by FÁS employees. This committee could not park the issues involved on the basis of Deputy Parlon’s responses at its last meeting. We should address this in a substantive way, without questioning the proposed decentralisation to Birr. Although I hold no ill will towards Birr and hope it can enjoy the benefits of the relocation, as I hope my home town can, the issues go beyond the crass considerations of individual towns. This is about the voluntarism of the entire proposition and requires substantive address by this committee. I propose we seek a full opportunity to discuss this with the Minister as it goes to the kernel of the proposal.

Chairman

Is it agreed that the joint committee will invite the Minister to discuss the matter? Agreed.

The next item is No. 349, a letter to the clerk from the Industry and Parliament Trust enclosing the latest edition of its magazine, The Bridge. It is noted and a copy is available on request. The next item is an IMF survey, a copy of which is available on request. The next item is a letter to the clerk from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regarding its customer service action plan, and a copy is available on request. The next item is No. 352, an e-mail to the secretary from the Department of Social and Family Affairs attaching additional information on EU scrutiny, which we will deal with under EU scrutiny. The next item is Action on Poverty Today, spring 2006 edition, and a copy is available on request. Item No. 340 is a letter to the clerk on EU scrutiny, which we will deal with under EU scrutiny. The next item is No. 353, the letter from the central decentralisation unit of the Department of Finance, enclosing a progress report on decentralisation dated 31 March. We will include that for discussion in the next meeting along with a report we received in early April.

Deputy C. Murphy

Will that be on the agenda for the next meeting?

Chairman

Yes.

Deputy C. Murphy

It is significant.

Chairman

There is a document, although the Department of Finance has said that future reports will be more comprehensive, so it knows we want comprehensive information and we have some there. The next item is No. 354, a letter to the chairman from the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on section 32 of the Freedom of Information Act. Arising from the last meeting on freedom of information, as Chairman I wrote to the Minister for Health and Children inviting the Secretary General to deal with the section 32 FOI issue at this committee. We wrote to all the other Ministers where the Information Commissioner had different points of view asking them to report back to us. A number of acknowledgements will arise. The next item is a letter to the Chairman from the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs on section 32 of the Freedom of Information Act. All this will come back to us in due course. The next item is from the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on the same issue.

The next item is a letter to the Chairman from the Chief Whip acknowledging the letter from the joint committee of 12 April. That is on today's meeting at the Chief State Solicitor's office. The next item is No. 358, a letter to the Chairman on a conference of the chairman of the financial affairs committee. That is the next item on the agenda. The next item is an e-mail from the freedom of information section of the Department of Health and Children on our proposed meeting next week. I ask that members hold their questions for next weeks meeting to which we have invited the Secretary General.

Deputy Ó Caolain

Could I have some clarification on item No. 359? I note the date stated is 20 April, yet in the correspondence from the Chairman to the Minister he has indicated 19 April. Which is the proposal?

Chairman

It changed. We had pencilled in 19 April, and I issued the letter accordingly but at Thursday's meeting the members changed the date to 20 April. A number of members indicated that 19 April did not suit them. The new date does not suit me but there is nothing I can do about it. I understand how some of us might be put out by that change of date but my hands were tied. I was happier with the earlier date but all members opted for the Thursday, which is not our normal day. We have had to inform the Department of Health and Children.

The next item is an e-mail from Mr. Kevin Lydon on commission communications and a common consolidation tax base, to be noted. There is another communique from the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions to be noted. The next item is No. 362, a letter from the clerk forwarded to the Joint Committee on Education and Science on the OECD economic forum 2006. I suggest we note that. The next item is a letter to the clerk from the Joint Committee on European Affairs on correspondence received by the committee on the parliamentary meeting, The Future of Europe, on 8 and 9 May. If members wish we can include this on the agenda for the next meeting. We will include that on the agenda and decide accordingly. The next item is an e-mail enclosing a copy of a newsletter, to be noted. The next item is a European Union regional policy newsletter, to be noted. The next item is No. 363, a letter from the clerk to the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny. We will deal with that when we deal with EU scrutiny.

The next item is an e-mail from Deputy Catherine Murphy, enclosing parliamentary questions on court actions regarding special education. This is relevant to today's meeting. As it only arrived yesterday evening, it will be circulated to members now. I thank her for sending it. That is all the business that comes under the correspondence heading.

The next item relates to travel. Members have indicated their interest in attending the OECD forum on balancing globalisation in Paris on 22 and 23 May 2006. We have to formally pass a motion approving travel.

Deputy P. McGrath

How many members will travel?

Chairman

We agreed that it would be two from each side and one official. The Whips on each side should be notified. I propose that the joint committee, in the interest of informing itself in pursuance of its terms of reference, agree to accept the invitation received from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, to participate in the OECD forum 2006 on balancing globalisation which will take place in the OECD headquarters in Paris on 22 and 23 May. Is that agreed? Agreed. The estimated cost of attendance is €2,490.67 per member and €2,440.67 for an official. Is it agreed to send two members from each side and an official?

Deputy Ó Caoláin

Is it necessary to send so many to this event?

Chairman

Let us say a maximum of four members. Deputy Ó Caoláin expressed reservations on this particular conference previously but other members pointed out there is a travel allowance to facilitate members to obtain information and we are one of the few committees that does not use its full travel allowance every year.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

The Chairman's proposal was for two members from each side and an official.

Chairman

A maximum of two members from each side and an official.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

That is five people. I do not know if it is absolutely necessary to send as many as that. We could still all benefit from whatever information is gleaned and reported back from half as many persons going. I would be agreeable to the motion if the proposal is amended to a maximum of four members.

Chairman

I propose a maximum of four members, and it may only be two.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

We know very well that our permanent representative will be flying.

Deputy Nolan

Our roving ambassador. As he is travelling today, he is not available.

Chairman

Our ambassador is obviously acting as an ambassador for another committee today. A maximum of four members will go to Paris. The convenors will notify the clerk.

The next item relates to proposed attendance at the conference of chairpersons of the financial affairs committees in Vienna on 29 May. The invitation is to me, as Chairman. If I can go, well and good; if not, I will nominate the Vice Chairman or somebody else to attend on my behalf. I propose that the joint committee, in the interest of informing itself in pursuance of its terms of reference, agree to accept the invitation received to participate in the conference of chairpersons of financial affairs committees which will take place on 29 May 2006 in Vienna. Is that agreed? Agreed. The estimated cost of attendance is €1,177 per member and €1,127 for an official. Is it agreed to send one representative from the committee? Agreed.

Rather than have a detailed discussion on the work programme, members can make suggestions which we will consider and we will come back with a detailed work programme. The following are standard items in our work programme: the Financial Regulator, the Standards in Public Office Commission and the Ombudsman. The work programme will also include consideration of the proposed new national development plan, the section 32 report on freedom of information and credit unions in the regulatory environment. The credit unions have asked to come in as they are seeking some changes. The Revenue Commissioners are a standard organisation that we invite in on occasion. I propose that members suggest some topics for inclusion to the clerk between now and the next meeting in order that we can put together a work programme. I do not propose to finalise anything today. I will just take suggestions.

Deputy C. Murphy

The local government sector embarked on a strategic management initiative. I presume that forms part of the public service in terms of the remit of this committee.

Chairman

I do not know if it does. It is possible that it could come under the remit of the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government.

Deputy C. Murphy

It would be well worth evaluating whether the strategic management initiative has had the desired outcome.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I wish to make two points in regard to the work programme. On page 4 of the circulated draft, No. 10 relates to the potential of the euro in the economic life of the State having regard to the use of two currencies on the island of Ireland. Is this indicative of a prioritisation from one to 13?

Chairman

No. None whatever.

Deputy Ó Caoláin

I encourage members to give some favourable consideration to that matter being expedited for address. I do not know the extent of members' experience in terms of travelling North for shopping or social activity but the two currencies issue is a major difficulty there. We have no difficulty in accepting sterling coming from the North to the South but there is a difficulty when one goes from the South to the North. We are constantly encouraging people to take on board the importance of greater social and business interaction and developing a more effective island-wide economy. One of the impediments is the situation vis-à-vis the euro north of the Border. This merits some serious address by the committee, which could offer a practical contribution to the overall thrust and trend of things currently towards greater contact, interaction and business exchange. It would be a most important proposal for us to consider.

The second matter I wish to highlight is one I raised previously. We made an interim report in regard to the practices of the banking and financial institutions. I do not know the extent of exposure of other members to the detail of a number of cases that have been brought to my attention by customers and former customers of the Irish Nationwide Building Society but I am very concerned. The building society is currently in the preparatory stages for registration with the Stock Exchange to change from a mutual society to become a private limited company. This raises significant issues.

Many of these people have never had a chance to have their story heard about the terrible reality of their experience. Speculative figures are currently being mooted as to the nature, value and business of this particular mutual society. Based on the information presented to me, it has not always acted with mutuality as a central theme. Following on from our earlier work, the committee could consider providing an opportunity to take note of some of the experiences and cases and to invite the Irish Nationwide Building Society to address these matters.

This would be a very important public service. I would appreciate the support of members in facilitating such an opportunity. I understand there has been a network of greatly hurt customers, former customers and their families who could provide a sample representation of their experiences to the committee. We could hear their particular grievances and, in turn, allow the building society to present its case. It is a natural follow on to the work we have been doing. The stories I have heard are of such gravity that I propose we accommodate such an opportunity as soon as possible.

Chairman

We will put it on the agenda. We are taking suggestions and decentralisation should obviously be on the list. If members have items to include in the work programme, they can contact the clerk between now and the next meeting. We will not finalise anything today.

Sitting suspended at 3.40 p.m. and resumed at 3.45 p.m.