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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2006

Credit Union Development Association: Presentation.

I welcome the chief executive officer of the Credit Union Development Association, Mr. Bill Hobbs, and Mr. John Kelly, Mr. Denis Daly and Mr. Michael McHugh of the management committee. The delegation has circulated a written submission. The joint committee will recall that, following discussion with representatives of the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Registrar of Credit Unions on 13 September, it was agreed that a similar discussion would take place with the Credit Union Development Association, CUDA. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the delegation and thank its members for attending today's meeting.

Before the discussion commences, I advise that while comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not. Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or Houses. We will commence proceedings with a short presentation by Mr. Bill Hobbs which will be followed by an open discussion with members.

Mr. Bill Hobbs

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the kind invitation to the Credit Union Development Association to give this presentation. The other members of the delegation are Mr. John Kelly, a member of the management committee of CUDA and a manager of Dubco Credit Union, Mr. Denis Daly, also a member of the management committee and a manager of Tullamore Credit Union, and Mr. Michael McHugh, a member of CUDA's management committee and manager of Comhar Linn INTO Credit Union.

CUDA represents 16 credit unions which collectively have more than 300,000 members and assets of approximately €1.8 billion. It is a progressive representative and development organisation representing member-owned, member-governed and professionally-managed credit unions in Ireland. The organisation was formed in 2003 by its members in recognition of a need for positive credit union leadership and a new form of co-operative engagement in response to a more competitive and increasingly complex operating environment.

The philosophy surrounding CUDA is about ensuring that credit union members benefit from the highest possible levels of accountability, transparency, integrity and secure value for money. Our credit union members include, among others, Blanchardstown and District Credit Union, Lucan and District Credit Union, Tullamore Credit Union, Coolock and Artane Credit Union and Dubco Credit Union. Credit unions which form part of CUDA comprise a mix of credit unions based within local communities and credit unions organised around the workplace.

The fundamental social and economic mission of the credit union is to give ordinary people a better deal on financial services than they can get from the for-profit sector. This was the reason credit unions were founded and it is a mission just as relevant to the citizens of 21st century Ireland as it was 50 years ago. Equally relevant today are the core values embodied in the co-operative structure of credit unions, values that form the basic philosophy of credit unions, namely, that the customers credit unions serve are their members who are also their owners. There is no tension between producing profits for owners and a better deal for customers because both are one and the same. To ensure that they are always guided by their members' welfare, credit unions are governed by volunteers elected from their membership democratically on the basis of one member, one vote. Governance by volunteer representatives helps ensure that members are treated with dignity, fairness, honesty and transparency. Members share a common bond through their membership and participation in the credit union. Due to their ownership structure, it is in the nature of credit unions to encourage thrift and educate their members in the wise use of their money.

Together with their mission, these philosophical values are the essence of the credit union ethos. They define what credit unions are and are not up for debate or compromise. These core values and mission of the credit union movement are timeless and have been the great success story of volunteer community action in Ireland. Credit unions must remain rooted as community-based organisations focused on those in communities whom they are mandated to serve. It must remain the fundamental and ongoing mission of credit unions to give ordinary people a better deal on financial services.

There is no doubt that the credit union movement has been highly successful. Having developed at a time when bank loans were out of the reach of most people, credit unions stood for the revolutionary idea of ordinary citizens starting their own bank and sharing in its profits. They grew and became the most trusted source of financial services to the point that today nearly half the population are members of credit unions. They cannot, however, be blinded by this success and must recognise some of the challenges that affect the movement in Ireland. The environment has changed and commercial banks now compete vigorously for members' business, offering the added convenience of 24-7 services, Internet access and attractive rates on loans and deposits. Increasing competition in the financial services market has had a direct impact on credit unions.

The reality that confronts credit unions today is that products, delivery systems, marketing approaches, methods of management and governance, legislation and regulation — all the elements of the credit union model — were designed for a country that barely exists any more. It is not that credit unions failed to change but that Ireland has changed so much more and so quickly. The 21st century challenge for credit unions is to become once again the best place for people to save and to borrow and the primary source of funding for social finance initiatives in the community.

According to a report compiled by Mintel International Group in 2005 there are some worrying signs for the credit union movement. Fewer than half of all members use their credit union in any given year and the percentage of borrowers is even lower and declining. Similarly, credit union membership is ageing as younger people tend to go elsewhere for the convenience and accessibility that many credit unions cannot provide. Of particular concern is that the unpaid volunteers who govern and in many cases staff credit unions are becoming more and more difficult to recruit. Concerns also arise about increasing levels of bad debt at some credit unions which has necessitated the recent intervention by the Financial Regulator.

Credit unions also need to adapt in response to demands for increased levels of corporate governance and should move away from industry self-regulation, as has happened elsewhere in the financial services sector in recent years. Regrettably, many of the existing models of credit union governance and self-regulation are obsolete in a modern, dynamic economy such as Ireland in which there is an increased emphasis on service, value and accountability.

Irish credit unions are at a crossroads and the future success and durability of the sector will in part depend on how responsive the credit union movement is in reforming and adapting to change. Some of these changes require a shift in mindset within the movement to be adaptable to changed circumstances and recognise the needs for better corporate governance and greater transparency and accountability as they move away from self-regulation. The success of other changes will depend on the attitude of the Government and Oireachtas to removing some of the unnecessary and burdensome restrictions which disproportionately inhibit credit unions in the effective delivery and expansion of services to members.

As I indicated, the discussion on the future of credit unions must focus on the needs and requirements of members of the credit unions to determine how they are being served at present. CUDA believes that Irish credit union members currently receive a restricted service from credit unions, largely due to legal inhibitions on the products and services that can be offered. This is a problem that inhibits competition, innovation and choice and prevents credit unions from competing with the mainstream banking sector. In particular, credit unions should be able to provide a full range of updated savings and lending products which meet the needs of members as modern consumers. These include: the ability to offer members a variety of different deposit accounts, with interest rates tracking the market but exceeding what the banks pay; the ability to offer members open-ended loans under lines of credit; the ability to offer longer-term loans beyond section 35 limitations; the ability to partner with mortgage lenders to finance members' homes by making long-term mortgage loans available at the credit union; and as credit unions develop expertise in residential finance, they should be able to obtain legal authority for direct mortgage lending.

These and other reforms are necessary to allow credit unions to retain members and compete with the high street financial institutions in offering the sort of services members have come to expect. However, CUDA also recognises that offering more complex services will bring with it an increased level of regulation and oversight. It is unrealistic and naive to expect that the State will confer additional powers and opportunities on credit unions, without seeking a concurrent enhancement of governance, management and operational competencies and enhanced internal controls to ensure credit unions' continuing safety and soundness and the protection of members' savings. Increased regulation may be the necessary price that credit unions have to pay for access to a wider range of more specialised services.

In addition to receiving a more restricted range of services from credit unions, there is one important area in which credit union members are at a distinct disadvantage which needs to be addressed urgently. Members of credit unions have second rate and inadequate protection of their savings, both in comparison with schemes in other countries and also the protections afforded to savers with banks and building societies.

The Credit Union Act 1997 introduced a statutory requirement that all credit unions participate in a "savings protection scheme" approved by the registrar, according to section 46(2), to "protect in whole or in part the savings of members of a credit union in the event of insolvency or other financial default". This legal requirement was important as it involved the Government and the Oireachtas recognising that credit union savers, like depositors in banks and building societies, deserved to be protected from loss in the event of a financial institution's failure. However, approximately ten years after the passage of the legislation, with €11 billion in savings held by Ireland's 2 million credit union members, we still lack this essential consumer safeguard of a statutory scheme. The only available scheme is offered by the Irish League of Credit Unions, ILCU, namely, the savings protection scheme, SPS. However, this is not a State guaranteed scheme. It operates as a discretionary stabilisation scheme controlled and administered by an unregulated trade body. There are concerns that it is underfunded. At the end of 2005 it amounted to €92 million before liabilities and guarantees, or only 0.73% of savers' deposits. Expert evidence given to the High Court in 2004 suggested the fund should comprise at least 1.25% of total deposits.

The ILCU SPS is not a deposit insurance scheme and does not provide any guarantee for consumers in the event of a credit union failing. Essentially, it is a fund to assist or stabilise troubled credit unions, operated on a discretionary basis by the ILCU. It is not sufficient protection for members of credit unions in modern Ireland. Such stabilisation funds fulfil an important role in nascent credit union movements but are wholly inadequate in developed movements. They have been replaced by state-backed deposit insurance schemes in countries such as the United States and Canada. Ireland is no different.

The protection required 20 years ago is vastly different from that required today. Government-backed explicit limited depositor protection is a necessity and a consumer right in Ireland's modern mature financial system. It is also the best practice preferred model of the IMF and the Financial Stability Forum and a necessary component part of a well designed financial safety net, alongside proper laws, prudential regulation, supervision and transparency. The savings of members of Irish credit unions deserve better protection which should be on a par with that offered to savers of other authorised credit institutions such as banks. There is no logical or prudential reason not to include credit unions in the existing State compensation scheme for customers of banks and building societies.

Under the Central Bank scheme, each individual depositor will be compensated for up to 90% of losses from a bank failure to a maximum of €20,000. The scheme is funded by the banking industry at no cost to taxpayers. Including credit unions in this scheme would involve them paying their share of the scheme costs. Critically, it would give credit union savers the deposit insurance protection which all consumers of financial services deserve. There is a precedent for this, as in 2000 the British Government wisely brought credit unions in England, Scotland and Wales into the same deposit insurance scheme it had established for banks. It did so as a matter of sound public policy, recognising that credit unions savers should have the same protection as bank customers.

It is important that members of Irish credit unions should have a fair deal in the protection of their savings. Thankfully, a credit union has never failed. However, this does not mean one can never fail, which is precisely why deposit insurance is required. The time to test the robustness of a deposit insurance scheme is before a crisis occurs, not afterwards. A simple two-line Bill would extend the protection of the current State-backed deposit guarantee scheme to customers of credit unions and be a welcome and long overdue development.

What happens to the existing stabilisation fund is a matter for the ILCU and those credit unions which have contributed to it since 1986. It could be used to augment the protections offered by the deposit guarantee scheme. Consumers' rights to proper Government-backed depositor protection must not be subordinated to institutional interests.

Offering more complex financial products would bring a greater need for regulatory oversight. It is an inevitable consequence of the regulator's role that it will wish to ensure savers' funds are not exposed to undue risks if credit unions are permitted to diversify and move into more complex and risky areas. CUDA recognises this involves credit unions accepting the reality of regulation and understanding the role and function of the regulator as a public watchdog. CUDA's views on effective credit union regulation may differ at times from those of the regulator. However, we recognise the public policy objectives behind the establishment and operation of the office in the wider public interest. It is right that as voluntary, community-based organisations, credit unions should be regulated differently from other institutions. This does not mean, however, that consumers' rights should be subordinate to the institutional rights of credit unions and their trade bodies, or that lower standards of governance and operational management apply. We find the regulator to be sensitive to the various needs of credit unions which operate primarily with a community focus and are governed and staffed in full or in part by volunteers. However, we must be constantly vigilant to ensure there is no over-regulation or burdensome regulation which would militate against the core aim of credit unions.

Credit unions should not be spectators on the future of their movement. With this in mind, CUDA and its member credit unions prepared a discussion paper, Reinventing Credit Unions for the 21st Century, which we will circulate during the coming weeks to all key stakeholders, including members of this committee. This important document will elaborate on observations made in this presentation and, in particular, cite new products and services which credit unions should be able to offer, by identifying the regulatory and legislative changes required to modernise the sector. We see this committee playing a pivotal role in defining the future of credit unions.

Credit unions' philosophical values and fundamental mission are different from operational methods, techniques and day-to-day business practices. Credit unions should not confuse how they have always acted with what makes up their true philosophy. It is good that they have made philosophy a habit, but not all their habits are philosophical. The document will also identify the changes credit unions must take on board in order that they can continue to play a core and vital part in the communities they serve.

The time has come for a root and branch review of the entire Act, as the present law is far too detailed and prescriptive. It spells out too many specifics which are best left to the judgment of a credit union's elected board of directors and its management team. The 1997 Act should be replaced with a new law which meets modern standards for credit union legislation in advanced countries.

The need for action goes beyond revisions to primary legislation. A modern and progressive credit union movement also requires the regulator to have a robust system for credit union examination and supervision to assure the public that credit unions operate in a safe and sound manner. Such a regulatory system should be flexible to allow for the various forms of credit unions which emerged during the past decade. It is important that regulation does not stifle or impede a credit union's ability to respond to its members' needs, while ensuring at all times credit union safety and soundness.

Credit union members should be at the heart of the debate about the future of credit unions. The focus should be on ensuring members have access to services from well run, accountable and transparent credit unions effectively regulated by an independent regulator, as well as proper State-backed protection for their savings at all times. As an organisation of member-focused and progressive credit unions, CUDA remains determined to contribute constructively in this debate to secure the changes necessary to maintain a vibrant credit union movement.

I thank the committee for inviting us to come before it. We will be happy to answer any questions members may have.

I thank Mr. Hobbs for an extremely interesting presentation. What jumps out is his assertion that people saving with credit unions have only second-rate protection for their savings. He also stated that, according to expert High Court evidence, protection of the €92 million is only 60% of what is needed. That is clearly a matter of serious concern and I wish to probe it. Who are the experts who stated this?

I was unable to attend the previous meeting of this committee owing to a Fine Gael parliamentary party meeting. However, I read the transcript. On that occasion, the committee heard that the savings protection scheme had a figure of €92 million but that bad debts ran at €28 million. Is this adequate cover? It sounds like the scheme is well covered, in the short-term at least. It depends on how the fund is topped up and how it would cope if there was a series of problems.

Deposit protection will differ for extremely short-term and certain traditional instruments. With higher risk, not only does one need higher regulation, as Mr. Hobbs indicated, but also higher cost deposit protection or deposit insurance. Does the Central Bank-based scheme allow graded protection, whereby those credit unions which continue in their traditional business would not have to pay a deposit protection levy? Would it be commensurate to credit unions involved in relatively higher risk business? Would it be graded? People would not want to see the traditional mandate which credit unions have served and continue to serve squeezed out by a move towards direct mortgage provision or other new demands.

The same is true on the regulatory side. There appears to be tension within the credit union movement between those who argue that it is time to become really professional with proper regulation and those who argue that the movement is a voluntary one and the standards that would apply to AIB, for example, cannot be imposed on volunteers. Is the CUDA trying to carve out different strands of regulation so that the 1,000 flowers would bloom according to their individual needs? One would not want to see traditional credit unions having to bear the cost of the more aggressive, risk-taking ones. How will the CUDA deal with that issue?

The delegates have pointed out problems that have affected most voluntary organisations in recent years. The credit unions are coming under pressure with regard to volunteers. The delegates also referred to the ageing of the client base. Is the move towards a much more professional set up inevitable? A lingering worry concerns the fact that traditional financial institutions have never catered for people whose credit rating is not good, who would be regarded as a bad risk and who, on graphs and checklists produced by regulators, would be bottom of the league. As the credit union movement becomes more professional and operates under greater regulation, can protections be put in place to ensure that such business does not get squeezed out by the more profitable, less risky kind? The Central Bank lost sight of the consumer when it was regulating the banks because it concerned itself solely with prudential criteria. I would not like to see the credit union movement take the same route.

I will take questions from Deputy Burton and then allow the delegates to respond.

The delegation is very welcome. I thank them for their very interesting presentation. My questions are similar to those posed by Deputy Bruton. Reference was made in the presentation to the savings protection scheme which is currently offered by the Irish League of Credit Unions. It is not State guaranteed but operates as a discretionary stabilisation scheme, controlled and administered by an unregulated trade body. Does the reference to an "unregulated trade body" apply to the Irish League of Credit Unions or the savings protection scheme?

The delegates outlined the areas where they would like to see an expansion of lending activities and made specific reference to mortgage lending. I ask them to expand a little on this issue because this committee has met representatives of the Irish League of Credit Unions recently, who made a series of presentations regarding the restrictions that apply under the current Act. Is the CUDA arguing that rather than continuing with the current negotiations, which will see a piecemeal extension to the current Act, it would be better to replace the legislation with a completely new credit union Act?

Credit unions now hold large volumes of money, particularly since the SSIA scheme reached maturity. If there were credit union savings products available, many members would continue to hold some or all of their SSIA money in their local credit union. At the moment, the movement appears to be restricted in that regard and I would welcome the delegates' views on that matter.

On the issue of mortgages I agree that the current situation is far too restrictive. However, if there is a widespread move into mortgage provision, it would mean the liquidity structures of the credit unions would inevitably change because they would be lending for much longer periods than heretofore. Traditionally the lending and deposit cycles of credit unions were short, even if people held accounts for many years. In that sense, would credit unions become more like popular savings and loans institutions, which are common in other jurisdictions?

Given that institutions in this country like the TSB, which were similar to popular savings and loan institutions, have largely been taken over by banks, how does the CUDA read the situation? If there is significant expansion, on the scale referred to by the delegation, would the credit unions quickly become very attractive targets for takeover by banks? This is a tricky area because it is very hard to resist the flow of how business develops. On the other hand, credit unions offer enormous advantages in the membership and voluntary context which people value. Volunteerism is an important issue in our society and even the Taoiseach talks about the issue and refers to the views of Professor Putnam.

The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS is sponsored by the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Do the credit unions affiliated to the CUDA take part in that service? The service is vital for people at the poorer end of the spectrum who cannot access credit from banks and the members of the Irish League of Credit Unions are very supportive of MABS. Is that also true of CUDA members and, if so, what is its experience of the service? It aims to assist a certain sector of Irish society who, either because of previous bad debt history or poverty, do not access banks and their services in the way more affluent people can and do.

Will the Vice Chairman allow me to make a brief contribution at this point because I must leave shortly for another engagement? I will be very brief and will not repeat what has been said already. If I am not here when the delegates respond, I will obtain a transcript of the proceedings.

The Deputy may put a question.

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation. Reform of the Credit Union Act 1997 is hardly sufficient to deal with many of the issues to which the delegates have alluded and which have been discussed here previously with the ILCU. A statutory savings protection scheme, with the emphasis on statutory, is critical and facilitating legislation will be required in that regard. Mr. Hobbs pointed out in his contribution that a mere two-line Bill would facilitate such a development but if more substantial legislation were prepared, that could be one element of it. I would be interested in the wording Mr. Hobbs has in mind, particularly if the aim could be achieved so simply. The wording of legislation is a task that often puts us to the pin of our collar.

I do not think the repeal of section 35 of the Credit Union Act has been addressed in detail. That section contains the lending restrictions of 20% for loans of up to five years and 10% for those over a ten-year period, if I am correct. Does the CUDA have an opinion as to why the registrar of credit unions, the Financial Regulator, is so adamant that this provision should not be revisited at this time? As a credit union member, along with many in my family, I am conscious that these restrictions encourage members to move to other financial institutions and are a curtailment on credit unions' reaching their full potential in our communities. Why does Mr. Hobbs believe the regulator is so adamant that a change of the nature I believe is required is not under consideration? I wish the delegation well.

Mr. Hobbs is open to call on his colleagues if he wishes to pass any questions to them.

Mr. Hobbs

I will deal with section 35 first because it has been mentioned by all three. CUDA is engaged in a ministerial review process of section 35 along with the Irish League of Credit Unions, ILCU, the Department of Finance and the Registrar of Credit Unions. A consensus seems to be forming around some view that it may be possible to increase the limits. I am reluctant to say more because the group needs to conclude its work towards the end of this month. Early indications are positive.

Deputy Ó Caoláin's question on the limits was addressed at the last finance committee when the deputy registrar said these limits were effectively negotiated in 1997 with the then ILCU and the Registrar of Credit Unions, and a hedge was proposed to the risks that sit on a credit union's balance sheet — that is taking money in short and lending it long. That is why those limits are there. In examining the Dáil debates of that time it struck me that significant emphasis was being put on lending limits in 1997 and one or two individuals made some substantial contributions to the extent that they would restrict credit union growth. The chickens have come home to roost in that regard and we are still examining it nine years on. That is all I can say on that matter while working on the consultative process as part of the review group.

Deputy Bruton raised a question concerning the SPS. In our submission we indicate that the SPS is a stabilisation fund. Such funds were necessary in nascent credit union movements to help credit unions establish themselves and, where they came across trouble, to bail them out on a temporary basis and enable them to grow again. It is a necessary and fundamental part of the co-operative support and structures that credit unions have put in place. It is not depositor protection or insurance, which is internationally recognised as requiring, in its best form, a government-backed, explicit guarantee of protection in the event of the failure or collapse of a credit institution. Typically depositor insurance provides for payment within a short period at a guaranteed level. It also provides for the orderly winding down of a credit institution so that the balance of the money owing to less sophisticated depositors is paid out over time. It is not an arbitrary process but is prescribed in law and applied so that everybody is clear on the steps in the event of something going wrong. Typically depositor protection or insurance can also include risk-minimisation supports for credit institutions that get into temporary difficulties, for example where there is a temporary liquidity or solvency problem but the credit institution can present a plan and demonstrate that it can get over the temporary difficulty. There is a fundamental difference between stabilisation funds used by credit unions in the past and a modern form of depositor protection and insurance.

The reference to the specific 1.25% comes from the High Court case and a Professor Richard Dale in referring to matters concerning the funding of such schemes. A depositor insurance scheme would require a funding level of 1.25%. It is not clear what a stabilisation funding level should be because in the past they tended to be discretionary and on the understanding between credit unions that decided to help each other out through a central fund.

If a credit union is aggressive and goes after these new territories of loan, would it need a higher contribution to a depositor protection scheme than 1.25%? Is there an element of everybody paying for the most aggressive credit union if we pursue the route about which Mr. Hobbs is talking?

Mr. Hobbs

More modern forms of depositor protection and insurance propose an element of premium rating. That is calculated on whether the credit union is performing and there are a number of risk measures in that respect. The most complicated scheme is being applied in the United States where there is a stepped approach based on how a credit union performs against a series of ratios. It reflects the risk profile of the credit union not so much from the point of view of the business it is involved in, but on how well it is managed in pursuing that strategy because the boundaries of the type of business a credit union can get involved in are set by the regulator in the example of the United States.

Implicit in that, is there a squeeze on the less sophisticated credit union that might not be high risk but does not have these governance structures?

Mr. Hobbs

That does not apply. In the current banks' deposit guarantee scheme there is a flat rate contribution of 0.2% of total deposits made. It does not distinguish between institutions. The premium rating does not apply in that scheme. The contribution to this scheme is significantly lower than that of stand-alone credit union deposit insurance schemes that typically require a loading of 1.25% to 1.5% of deposits. It is important, when looking at depositor insurance to consider how it should be funded. In some cases it is expensed on the revenue-expense account so it is a cost to the credit union. In other cases it is a deposit so it sits on the balance sheet and does not represent a cost, apart from the opportunity cost of the foregone investment income that could have been earned on it otherwise. That is another aspect of the banks' scheme that is appealing because it is a low-cost alternative to a stand-alone depositor protection scheme similar to those that exist elsewhere.

The tension to which Deputy Bruton referred is a natural tension to a large extent that is moving from a culture of self-regulation to a culture of regulation. This tension focuses on the point that credit unions should have a different form of regulation by virtue of their institutional form, but that it should not be any lighter. To the degree that this tension exists it is a good thing because it requires that EC-type legislation coming through that is designed for large credit institutions does not apply directly to credit unions, but that a different type of legislation is evolved for credit unions that recognises that they will continue to be volunteer-owned and directed.

On the issue of volunteer directors, many of whom are members of CUDA and are sitting in the Visitors Gallery here, we see no conflict between a modern, well-governed credit union and a volunteer board. We see a need for a new form of credit union governance to evolve to allow volunteers to fulfil their duties as directors, which is to oversee the strategic development of that credit union and to ensure that its policies and procedures are in place. In that sense it is a critical oversight role in ensuring that the credit union continues to be managed and governed in a safe and sound way. There is a more important role evolving for volunteers who currently govern all the credit unions in Ireland.

There is reference as well to the adoption of more professional mechanisms and techniques for credit scoring and credit risk management. It is incredibly important that credit unions, if they are to apply these techniques, do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Credit unions are quite expert in calling credit based on their experience which, in many cases, sees credit afforded to people who would have been and continue to be turned down by banks and building societies. It is important that type of lending continues. It is equally important that the delinquency issue that currently appears to be a sectoral issue is dealt with and unwound over a period of time. There is some necessary change, but there is no change to suggest that a credit union should blindly apply credit scoring in the modern IT-driven credit assessment techniques that simply treat members as numbers or as loan assets to be squeezed for as much money as can possibly be got out of them. We must remember that credit unions are in the business of maximising service to their members. That is the predominant value that credit unions hold at their core. It is part of their philosophy and make-up.

I have a few brief questions. Mr. Hobbs referred to volunteerism and the increasing difficulty of recruiting staff for credit unions. Are there instances where credit unions cannot or are coming close to not being able to provide a service because of the difficulty of recruiting staff? What is being done to remediate that? What are the issues? Is it about the time people have? Perhaps Mr. Hobbs could expand on that. What comes across very clearly, as Deputy Bruton said, is the necessity to protect people's savings. Listening to this debate, one thing that confused me was that at one point Mr. Hobbs talks about unnecessarily burdensome restrictions and at another he says that increased regulation may be a necessary price. It may be that the document to be launched in the next few weeks will be quite elaborate in terms of what should go and what should stay.

Mr. Hobbs

Let me take the second point first. In regard to unnecessarily burdensome restrictions-----

Perhaps Senator O'Toole could make his contribution and then Mr. Hobbs may reply.

The presentation from CUDA is very welcome, as was the presentation for the Irish League of Credit Unions at our last meeting. I should declare that I am a credit union member and was a founder member of a credit union. There is one general point I would stress and on which I would like to hear from the deputation. The mutualisation vacuum left in the Irish market will create all sorts of difficulties. The point was made by Deputy Burton about morphing in another direction. There will have to be some morphing to fill the gap that will be left when there are no longer any significant mutual financial services. That is why the higher level of regulation being proposed for consideration today is hugely important. The Oireachtas certainly welcomes that kind of openness towards that.

In moving into the area of mutualisation, covering the area covered by building societies at the moment, credit unions might be protected from the takeover about which I would worry. The fact that individual credit unions are single units would make it difficult for that to happen. For the first time the mutualised section is protected by the very fact that it is so disparate. I share Deputy Burton's view that if we are merely setting up a new vehicle into which the large financial institutions internationally can move, I do not want to do that.

Mr. Hobbs talks about the importance of new credit union legislation. That was also raised by the league. It is something that has received a very positive response from us, particularly in regard to the section 35 restrictions which I will not go into again other than to mention in passing that they are having a huge impact on the way we lend and can lend to people. I also welcome what has been said about the variety of deposit accounts tracking the market rate, the overnight rate or the European rate. It is something people understand much more than they did previously. They are aware of changes in interest rates and they can tie into that. I strongly agree that the committee should support proposals regarding the level of protection for deposits. The Central Bank protection on deposits in most financial institutions is not available to credit unions. It should be and the Government should get into talks with the Irish League of Credit Unions about how that might be achieved. It is a matter of trust and confidence. It could be done. It would be in everybody's interest. Is that specifically what Mr. Hobbs is saying? Do the credit unions want to move on in that area?

My final point relates to mortgages. I extended my home at one stage with a credit union loan so I am very much in favour of this. Is it feasible for credit unions to be involved in giving full domestic loans in the context of what we are now hearing? We as politicians are already worried by what we hear about the possibility of 35 or 40 year mortgages. We would not want to fuel that trend, but where does that leave us?

I again thank the deputation for its presentation.

Mr. Hobbs

In regard to unnecessarily burdensome restrictions, the restrictive nature of legislation is what credit unions have laboured under since 1997. Quite a number of aspects of the Credit Union Act are quite restrictive and prescriptive and that legislation has inhibited credit union growth over that period. There is, however, a difference between that type of approach and the required regulatory system required to police it and a modern form of regulation based on laws that allow the regulatory system to operate in a much more flexible manner. Let me give an example. At this time credit unions are restricted as to the numbers of non-qualifying members with which they may do business. There is a restriction of competition built into the Act whereby the regulator would be entirely within his rights in writing to a credit union instructing it to close down customers' accounts because there are too many of them. The Act could have another effect. A credit union that is doing extremely well within its common bond boundary may expand slightly beyond that because it has continued to grow and to do good business with its members, while the credit union next door is only opening three evenings a week and is unable to do any business in that catchment area. Strict interpretation of the common bond could mean that the first credit union could be instructed by the regulator not to operate outside its catchment area and to close down all accounts and loans in the area. That type of restrictive legislation is to an extent anti-competitive. That is what we mean by unnecessary and burdensome restrictions that can sometimes evolve through regulation as a result of legislation that has been passed.

It is clear that credit unions have moved on significantly since 1997. Total assets at that time amounted to approximately €1.2 billion or €1.3 billion. There is now approximately €11 billion in savings held by credit unions across Ireland and some €6 billion in lending. They are significant institutions. If one combines the entire balance of savings, credit union savings represent approximately 18% of household deposits. To that extent the 18% of household deposits held by depositors are not protected by a depositor protection scheme. In 2006, not one euro of that money is guaranteed as it would be if it were held on deposit in a bank. This is not an issue for a trade association or even for a credit union. It is a consumer rights issue. It is right and proper that consumer savers with credit institutions have this necessary protection.

There is a genuine concern that volunteering in credit unions is beginning to tail off. This is a trend which is seen elsewhere. The Taoiseach has commented on it. In the past and in other credit union movements this trend contributed to the rationalisation of those movements and the reduction in the number of credit unions although not in the number of credit union outlets, which is significantly different.

Rationalisation is an aspect of the maturing profile of a credit union movement. The Irish movement is at that stage of its development where one can predict, because of a number of developments including a drop-off in volunteering, that there will be a need to consolidate the number of credit unions over a period of time. That should not be seen as a bad thing. It is possibly a good thing. The United States movement, for example, reduced the number of credit unions from approximately 21,000 to approximately 9,100 while its membership trebled to 80 million. Credit unions are able to manage and govern in a way which is different. They focus on delivering members' value and grow as a result of that. They develop by virtue of the scale and size they can achieve and not by virtue of their numbers.

This brings me to Senator O'Toole's point regarding the need to protect the mutualisation aspect of credit unions and to allay the fear that credit unions may suddenly decide to go private, with volunteers lining their pockets with the proceeds of a takeover. I doubt if that would ever be the case. It would be nice to see a credit union in a position where there would be a fear of that happening but I would not propose it as a strategic objective. Mutualisation needs to be protected. That is why the credit union ethos is not up for debate or compromise. Credit unions remain community owned and community governed financial co-operatives and they must stay so.

I welcome the representatives of CUDA. I must declare an interest. Like Senator O'Toole I am a member of a credit union although I am sure my deposit is not as big as his.

Mr. Hobbs has spoken about the restrictions imposed on credit unions and their difficulty in expanding. He also spoke about the importance of credit unions being based in the community, locally owned and managed and knowing their customers. Is there not a conflict here? Mr. Hobbs speaks about the small credit union which is open three evenings per week and the bigger credit unions in, for example, Tullamore or Mullingar, not being able to expand into smaller regions. Is that not a major difficulty? If a credit union which is providing a good service in a small rural area, albeit opening only three evenings a week and staffed by volunteers, is absorbed by a credit union based in a large town, will the movement not quickly become a global financial institution?

Mr. Hobbs cited the movement in the United States where the number of credit unions fell from 21,000 to 9,000. Is that how he would like the Irish movement to develop? Mr. Hobbs's organisation represents 16 credit unions. Would he like to see them become one large credit union? Does he see a conflict between that development and the idea of a credit union being based in the local community? How does he see that conflict resolving itself?

I thank Mr. Hobbs and his colleagues for coming to the committee. I commend his volunteers for their contribution to Irish society. I am not a member of a credit union but I will join the Dundrum credit union, which has a beautiful building, next week. A friend of mine has treated herself to a very exclusive coat from money she invested in a credit union. She is in her late 70s and has decided to splurge. She has derived great pleasure from the credit union. One of my family members, Mr. Michael Canavan, was a founder of the credit union movement with Mr. Ivan Cooper in Derry. I thank the representatives of the movement for what they have done for our country.

Mr. Hobbs

We see no conflict. It is not a matter of enormous credit unions emerging over time. It is entirely possible for the credit union movement to accommodate larger credit unions and the smaller credit union model. It has been done. What is important is that credit unions survive in the 21st century and that supports be put in place and legislation enacted to protect them and enable them to do so, regardless of size. It is eminently possible for a credit union which wants to focus on the traditional model to do that. It should also be possible for a credit union which wants to expand and grow the range of its operations or the breadth of its geographic spread be allowed to do so. It is a question of choice. It remains to the members, through their board, to decide how best they want to do this.

A small credit union trying provide a service locally will be obliged to compete with a bigger one which will be more efficient, have more convenient opening hours and give better services such as bank cards and so on. Is it not inevitable that the people for whom the movement was originally intended will be squeezed out?

Mr. Hobbs

I would disagree with that. There are many solutions to this question. One solution, which has been worked out by the Canadian movement, which has gone through this rationalisation, is an arrangement whereby a smaller credit union becomes partner to a large credit union which supports it in what it is doing.If it is the decision of a local board to open only three days per week, for example, it can operate on that basis but the supports which a modern regulated financial co-operative requires in order to ensure that it remains safe and sound are supplied through the partnership relationship. There are many examples of such models. The recent rationalisation report of the Irish League of Credit Unions contains a number of examples of the type of co-operative arrangement which could be entered into by smaller credit unions.

It is important that credit unions realise the inevitability of the march of time which requires a higher level of regulation and greater public scrutiny, regardless of size. New ways of co-operating and engaging together beyond the more traditional structures need to be found. This is what CUDA stands for.

Mr. Denis Daly

The larger credit unions are not in competition with the smaller credit unions. It is the view of many people, endorsed by the regulator, that smaller credit unions are coming under increased pressure to provide a larger range of services to their members. This may be because of what is happening in the marketplace and we must accept this reality. As a result — and I have read the reviews of the regulator on the matter — this is adding to the pressure on smaller credit unions to increase their risk profile. This is something we must recognise. We are a co-operative movement and recognise the current realities. The Act is very proscriptive and does not allow credit unions to respond to the vagaries in the marketplace at any level. We are asking for co-operation between the credit unions to recognise the need to adhere to best practice, examine the services they provide and respond to the marketplace. We need the co-operation of Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas in respect of the legislation. We are looking for legislation that will, I hope, be more enabling. We recognise that in order to balance that, there will possibly be a requirement for stronger regulation and that the entire matter must be underpinned by strong depositor protection for our members. This is the bottom line for us. Nobody in the movement at any level could argue with this.

There is room within the movement for credit unions at all levels and in various formats but if we remain as we are, we will simply add to the pressure on credit unions to assume risk. Even credit unions at our level find that the figures do not look too good, to put it mildly, because of our inability to respond to the marketplace. We must react and do something before it becomes too much of an issue for us.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Hobbs, Mr. Daly and their colleagues for their written submission to the committee and their very comprehensive replies. Their attendance, submission and contribution will be of benefit to the committee in its deliberations. We very much appreciate the time the delegation has given to the committee and hope it has found its visit and contribution to be satisfactory.

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