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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jul 2008

Banking and Financial Services Sectors: Discussion with Governor of the Central Bank.

Before we commence I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask that everyone switch off their mobile telephones for the duration of the meeting.

The joint committee has invited Mr. John Hurley, Governor of the Central Bank, to discuss the current state of the economy, including the banking and financial services sectors. Mr. Hurley is joined by Mr. Tony Grimes, director general, and Mr. Tom O'Connell, assistant director general. I welcome them and thank them for making themselves available to meet the committee. I invite Mr. Hurley to make his opening presentation, which will be followed by a question and answer session.

Mr. John Hurley

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the invitation to speak today on the current state of the economy and the banking and financial services sectors. I am accompanied by Tony Grimes, director general of the Central Bank, and Tom O'Connell, assistant director general of economics.

When I was before the committee earlier this year I outlined our unitary organisational structure, emphasising in particular how the Central Bank and Financial Regulator worked closely together in response to market turbulence. I do not intend to describe these arrangements again today except to say the structure continues to work well and there continues to be close co-operation.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the economy is very different now compared to 20 or 25 years ago. Since then Ireland has transformed itself from a country with a relatively low standard of living to one in which the average income per head is well above the EU average. Not only are living standards much higher, but employment has also grown rapidly, and we have seen strong development in the manufacturing, business and financial services sectors, helped by the fact that we have been hugely successful in attracting foreign investment. Clearly the economic situation has changed significantly, but in terms of where we are starting from, the position is very different from the 1980s.

As members know, we published our annual report last week, and in my statement today I will outline the rationale behind our latest forecasts for economic growth. In our earlier forecast, it was always emphasised that there were many downside risks and vulnerabilities that could push growth lower. These risks related to the potential for interaction among global financial market turbulence, rising global energy and food prices and the slowing of activity within the economy which was already under way. In recent months almost all of these downside risks have materialised and this has led to a greater than expected slowdown in growth and higher than anticipated inflation. Notwithstanding the more challenging short-term outlook, we continue to believe that growth in the economy should gradually recover and inflation moderate. However, this recovery is not guaranteed and the evolution of the economy will be very much influenced by how we respond to the challenges we face.

As a country we have benefited considerably from the prudent, stability-focused policy approach we have followed in recent decades. This has helped to deliver domestic economic stability and has contributed significantly to attracting foreign investment and greatly facilitated growth. To ensure a sustainable recovery, it is important we maintain this approach and focus on key policy areas under our control. These include public finances; efficiency and effectiveness in public spending, particularly with regard to increasing the productive capacity of the economy; and overall competitiveness.

While the emergence of a slowdown in the economy was not unanticipated, the loss of momentum has been greater than expected this year. This has arisen from a sharper than expected adjustment in the housing sector alongside a deterioration in the international environment. Our current forecasts are that both GNP and GDP growth will remain positive this year, albeit significantly less than 1%. It will be the end of July before we finalise our forecasts but a ball-park estimate at this point would be that growth will be around 0.5% this year and about 2% in 2009.

In common with other developed economies, Ireland is facing significant inflationary pressures arising from elevated prices for energy and other commodities. We are all conscious of the experiences of the 1970s, when the response to the oil price increases of the time resulted in persistently high inflation. This undermined growth and employment in the economy and was especially damaging to those on fixed incomes. While the current situation is not identical, there are some similarities. It is important to accept that economic conditions here have weakened and we cannot compensate ourselves on an economy-wide basis for commodity price increases over which we have no control. As we know from past experience, if we attempt to do so recovery inevitably will be delayed.

Ireland's position with regard to competitiveness has weakened in recent years because wage and broader cost inflation has been higher than for our main trading partners. It is vital for our growth prospects to ensure that our competitiveness position improves rather than deteriorates further. Based on the potential for growth and productivity in the labour force, the medium term outlook for the economy remains favourable and growth will return to stronger levels if the appropriate corrective action is taken. Growth should pick up next year on the basis of a bottoming out in the domestic housing output and some improvement in the external environment.

The housing market weakened significantly in 2007 with sharp declines in output and prices. Most economic commentators envisaged an adjustment in the housing market because for a number of years housing output was well above the sustainable rate, taking account of underlying housing needs. Housing investment peaked at around 13% of GDP in 2006 which was well in excess of international norms. This is likely to reduce to 7.5% of GDP in 2008, which represents a substantial scaling back of activity. The significant weakening in the housing sector will detract considerably from growth this year. Housing output should broadly stabilise during the course of next year but clearly risks are to the downside. In general, declines in output and prices represent a movement towards a more sustainable position in the long term. Unfortunately the adjustment process is difficult, if unavoidable.

Two fairly distinct sets of events are driving global economic developments at the moment. First, housing market adjustments are taking place in a number of the major developed economies alongside associated difficulties in financial markets. Second, a sharp rise in commodity prices is placing upward pressure on global inflation and causing a transfer of income from countries importing these commodities to those producing them. The combination of these events is having a negative impact on output growth globally. Unfortunately, this slowdown is affecting the US and UK economies disproportionately, two of our major trading partners. Economic activity has remained stronger in the euro area, although an easing in the growth rate is expected in the short term before a recovery towards its potential growth rate of about 2%. The risks to the growth outlook are probably on the downside, however, in all of these economies.

Another negative outcome of these events is the sharp upward pressure on headline inflation rates globally. Central banks are very focused on this issue and are particularly concerned that the rise in commodity prices does not spread out into higher inflation generally. In order to counter these risks within the euro area, the ECB Governing Council decided to raise its interest rates at its last meeting. Price stability is a vital foundation for sound economic performance and prosperity over the longer term and preserves the purchasing power of incomes and savings. Inflation, in contrast, creates uncertainty for savers and investors and undermines confidence in an economy in a way that ultimately damages the welfare of its citizens.

I would like to turn to the financial market developments. Over the past year, there has been a generalised disruption in normal money market operations between banks. This resulted mainly from uncertainty regarding the extent of losses on complex financial instruments linked to subprime mortgages in the US. Central banks responded quickly to counteract these adverse conditions in money markets. The ECB in particular was in a position to take strong action in the light of the pre-existing arrangements whereby banks had an extensive range of collateral that could be used to access central bank liquidity. These arrangements effectively addressed the problems at the short end of the money market. However, with questions of transparency and asset valuation remaining, term interest rates continue to be elevated with higher than normal spreads remaining between longer term rates and official rates. This will only change when confidence is restored among financial market participants.

The Irish financial sector is not immune to these international financial developments which are persisting for longer than expected. Term funding is not as readily available on wholesale markets and this has increased the need for banks to concentrate on liquidity management. Internationally, share prices of financials have fallen significantly and Irish shares have also suffered. It is important, however, to point out that Irish financial institutions have negligible exposures to impaired US sub-prime and related structural credit products, and loan arrears remain historically low. Accordingly, the banking sector here has not experienced the write-down of assets that has required several other international banks to raise additional capital. In line with the results of previous exercises, the preliminary results of our latest macro-economic stress tests on the banking sector, which are designed to test the financial position of banks in the face of a serious economic downturn, suggest that the banking sector’s financial buffers remain strong. This strength is an essential prerequisite for the more challenging times that have arisen.

Growth should pick up somewhat next year as the fall in domestic housing output levels off. Thereafter, growth in the Irish economy could begin to return towards its long run sustainable potential rate of close to 4%. However, this recovery is not guaranteed and, as I have said earlier, will be influenced by how we respond to the current challenges we face. To ensure a sustainable recovery in growth back towards potential, it is important to focus on some key areas under our own control. These include the public finances, the efficiency and effectiveness of public spending, particularly in relation to increasing the productive capacity of the economy, and overall competitiveness.

The slowdown in economic activity is impacting significantly on the fiscal position. Exchequer data indicate a sizeable decline in tax revenue in the first half of 2008, primarily reflecting a marked slowdown in property related taxes, but also indicative of a slowdown in consumer spending. On the expenditure side, the weakening of the labour market is increasing social expenditure. This points to a significant deterioration in the fiscal deficit for 2008 relative to earlier projections. I note that the Department of Finance has revised its estimate for the full year General Government Balance to a deficit of about 2.75% of GDP. Our own internal estimates are broadly in line with this assessment.

The slowing of growth coupled with the risks facing the economy presents significant issues for fiscal policy. On the basis of current trends, it will be a major challenge to remain within the terms of the Stability and Growth Pact next year. It should be emphasised, however, that the targets set under the Stability and Growth Pact represent a prudent approach to the management of the public finances.

Within these constraints, it will be necessary to carefully manage the allocation of scarce public funds and to focus on measures to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of Government spending, both current and capital. A particular priority within the capital programme should be the maintenance of expenditure on key infrastructural projects, which can enhance productivity and improve the potential for the economy to grow in the future.

Policies that promote productivity and competitiveness can help the economy to weather the effects of adverse developments and of lower growth in the global economy. They also serve to increase the medium-term performance of the economy, protect employment and allow for sustainable increases in living standards. For these reasons, in addition to my earlier remarks about the need to improve competitiveness, boosting productivity growth and promoting flexibility in response to short-term shocks are particularly important. In addition to enhancing the efficiency of public spending and continuing to address the country's infrastructure deficit, a number of other measures can be identified which would promote this goal. These include greater competition in the more sheltered sectors of the economy, continuing to encourage innovation and research and development activity and enhancing the skill level of the labour force.

We are now in a more challenging environment. This makes it particularly important to ensure that policy remains focused on sound economic management and that timely decisions are taken to redress the unfolding situation. As I have said earlier, we have benefited considerably from following such an approach. It has underpinned domestic economic stability, helped us to attract substantial foreign investment and greatly facilitated growth. It is vital for our prospects for a sustainable recovery in growth that we continue to follow such a path.

I thank Mr. Hurley for his address to the committee. I am sure it raises many questions which we will discuss for the next hour and a half or two hours.

I want to refer to three items. First, with regard to the stability of the Irish banks, some commentators have written and commented that the stress tests the Central Bank applies are not wide enough. I would like to hear Mr. Hurley's comments on that. Second, some commentators have made statements to the effect that the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator have a vested interest in stating that the Irish banks are doing fine. Third, will Mr. Hurley comment on the solvency ratio? Is there one solvency ratio for ordinary banking situations and another for people purchasing land and so on? Fourth, has the Central Bank got powers to change the solvency ratio when it sees change in the economic situation?

Mr. John Hurley

On the stress testing, we are in the process of conducting a stress test. We stress test regularly. The stress test we are conducting currently is a macro-economic one. It is not completed but we have the preliminary results. They are not totally complete but the early indications suggest that despite the turbulent situation facing the economy and the adjustment taking place with the property market weakening, our banks are weathering the situation well.

In terms of the test itself, this is state of the art macro-economic stress testing. The model that is used would have been validated, for example, by the International Monetary Fund some time ago when it examined the workings of the bank and the Financial Regulator. It stresses a significant and protracted downturn in the Irish economy and a significant increase in unemployment far beyond what we are expecting at the present time. It will also foreshadow a significant fall in foreign direct investment and a drop in housing output, which is more serious than we expect currently.

This macro-economic model is presented to the financial institutions and then stress tested within their own models on the basis of this scenario. It is those returns that we are currently examining. It is not finished and the results will be published but as I was launching the annual report and coming to this committee I thought that even though they are very preliminary results, they should be given.

Stress testing of financial institutions is a model based stress test. It is state of the art but nevertheless it is a model based stress test and all stress tests have their limits. Very serious situations could arise where stress testing does not provide a guarantee but it is only one of the many tools that are used by the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator in assessing the health of the financial institutions.

Apart from the stress testing exercise, which is conducted quite often, there are serious contacts with the financial institutions, particularly at this time when we are going through a very turbulent period in the financial markets internationally. That turbulence has been continuing for about a year. It is very protracted and in recent weeks we have seen just how difficult that is, particularly in the United States economy. After the Bear Stearns developments there was some improvement in the money markets but in recent days, with the news about two big mortgage institutions in the United States, we have seen that money markets, equity markets and markets generally have been significantly affected. We are in a turbulent period and our financial institutions and our economy must operate and make its decisions in that context. We are concerned here with a state of the art stress test with serious scenarios posited for the financial institutions. The model that is used would be validated internationally. However, stress tests have their limits and it is only one of the many tools that we use.

With regard to the interest of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator, we have been established as State institutions by the Dáil and the Oireachtas to do particular jobs under law. We try to do that to the best of our ability and try to discharge the mandates we have been given by the Oireachtas. Our sole interest is to fulfil those mandates; we have no other interest.

The solvency ratio is 8%. While there are variations between institutions, the average solvency ratio for Irish banks is in excess of 10%. On the question of the ability to vary this ratio, prior to 2006, there was a slowing down in the property market and it appeared that growth in that market was going to ease down, but in 2006 that trend reversed and there was a substantial increase in prices. I immediately made a statement in the middle 2006 that we in the Central Bank and the Financial Services Authority of Ireland did not consider that the fundamental factors in the Irish economy were any longer supporting the type of price increases we were then seeing. We published various models of over-valuation in our reports at that time. The Financial Regulator quickly put in place a new liquidity regime for Irish banks, which is probably somewhat more onerous than the liquidity regimes elsewhere.

The regulator also examined the capital requirements for property lending. Within the capital requirements directive there is some flexibility to increase these. For example, on speculative real estate, the regulator increased the weightings from 100% to 150%, that is, effectively increasing the ratio from 8% to 12%. It would, therefore, provide a significant buffer to assist with a decrease in valuation. It could have reduced weightings for commercial real estate mortgages. The risk rating on the capital requirements directive is 50%, but the regulator kept it at 100%. He also kept the risk rating for property leasing at 100%. Regarding residential property lending, the regulator required that loan to value ratios, LTVs, over 75% would require a weighting of 75%, that is, for loans up to €1 million and beyond that figure the weighting is 100%. Significant adjustments within the terms of the directive were permitted and were made.

In addition to that, two other initiatives were taken at the same time. The stress testing requirements for banks and loans were made absolutely clear to credit institutions. They have to stress test mortgages at 2.75% above the ECB's minimum rate. In addition to that, the consumer protection code was issued at that time. A significant number of initiatives were taken at that time in 2006. Perhaps it is not fully understood but a number of these initiatives by the Financial Regulator would be far in excess of what has happened under other regimes in other economies. I hope that deals with the Chairman's points and I can reply to any supplementary questions.

I will call Deputy Bruton to be followed by Deputy Kenneally, Deputy Burton and Senator Quinn.

How well founded are the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland's assurances that the health of the banking sector is sound? Much of the stress testing that is carried out has probably been somewhat discredited by recent events because certain elaborate computerised models relating to risk assessment have been shown to be highly dubious in nature. Rating agencies are in the dock as a result. The markets do not appear to believe either the banks or the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland.

Is the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland to work with the banks in order to certify that the value of their assets are as sound as is claimed? The Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland's annual report indicates - Mr. Hurley reiterated this earlier - that there has not been a mark down of assets in Irish banks. Is that because such assets are balance sheet items? Unlike those institutions which hold securitised mortgages, the banks are obliged to mark to market. The latter obviously created the stampede to mark down values. Has the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland examined the quality of the various banks' loan books and is it in a position to provide assurances in respect thereof?

Mr. Hurley stated that the stress test is just one of many tools. It would be interesting if he could provide information with regard to the other tools that are used. Does the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland have the authority to, if need be and if the position becomes more serious, intervene to certify the quality of a bank's assets?

Mr. Hurley dwelt upon the measures that were brought into force in 2006. There is no doubt that when the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland issued its stability report for that year, it issued stern warnings about excessive credit growth. The stability report stated that, at 250% of GNP, private sector credit was the highest in Europe, that there was too much reliance on the wholesale market - to fund loans - and on the property sector, the figure relating to which had soared from 38% to 60% in six years and that the provision relating to bad debt was falling. It also emphasised the limitations of the banks' stress testing models.

Were the concerns expressed by the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland at that time heeded? Did it do enough to ensure that they were heeded? Mr. Hurley outlined the actions that were taken. Did the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland have the power to put an end to the doubtful lending practices that had crept into the market here? There is an impression abroad that certain financial institutions would have been happy to pull back on some of these practices but that their competitors were pushing ahead. As a result, Gresham's law, namely, that if one financial institution treats resources in a certain way, every other institution must follow suit, applied. Did the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland intervene aggressively enough in respect of these matters?

Has the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland stress tested how it would deal with an escalation of the crisis in the Irish financial market? When such a stress test was carried out in the UK, there was much discontent. I accept that Ireland does not have the same model as that which operates in the UK. However, I would be interested to discover the level of evaluation the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland has carried out with regard to dealing with events such as those to which I refer in the Irish context.

The deposit protection scheme protects deposits of up to €20,000. In America deposits of up to $100,000 are protected and the UK is moving to a position where deposits of up to £50,000 are protected. Ireland seems to be considerably behind other jurisdictions in the context of the level of protection on offer. It also seems that progress in this regard is buried in some EU process in respect of which, it appears, there will be no immediate outcome. What is Mr. Hurley's view on this matter? Should we increase the level of deposit protection in order that there will be in place a proper system in which people might have confidence?

Another issue of concern is the exclusion of small businesses that are getting into difficulties with banks from the remit of the Financial Services Ombudsman as a result of the existence of a ceiling of €3 million. Does such a ceiling remain appropriate or should action be taken in respect of it?

What is Mr. Hurley's view regarding a role for National Pensions Reserve Fund in respect of current financial difficulties? It has been suggested that consideration should be given to the fund being used to securitise the existing loan books of some of the banks. An alternative, which might have more broadly based political support, is for the NPRF to fund new local authority equity loans, which would be seen to kick-start buying in the market by people on long waiting lists rather than bailing out existing balance sheets. I am interested in Mr. Hurley's comment on that.

With regard to general economic policy, Mr. Hurley stressed the role of the Stability and Growth Pact. How important for Ireland is the 3% limit on borrowing in managing its way through the present difficulties? The view has been expressed, for example, by the ESRI that the limit is not a be all and end all and if a sound strategy is in place, we could tolerate exceeding it while others say the opposite, which is this is an important totem we cannot afford to breach. What is the Central Bank's view?

Mr. John Hurley

On the stress testing, I made clear this is just one of a number of instruments and the limitations to these instruments have been spelt out, as the Deputy correctly said, in previous reports. Nevertheless, they are a useful tool and, in this particular case, we set out a severe economic downturn under all the different headings and required banks to assess their response and how they would be affected. We then analysed those responses. It is a useful test but it is only one of a number.

Significant inspections are carried out by the Financial Regulator under our structure. The regulator has significant powers to go into institutions and to inspect and examine their books. On that basis, we can say the banks are well capitalised. We analyse our liquidity arrangements with them on a weekly basis and this suggests there are not issues currently. Arrears on assets are low but one would expect them to increase in a downturn.

Are arrears on assets low because they are being re-financed and rolled over with interest or because there is a strong payment record on them?

Mr. John Hurley

There is a level of rolling up which we have discussed previously with the committee. First, the Financial Regulator took the steps I mentioned in increasing the capital from 100% to 150% in regard to those assets. The loan to value levels relating to commercial property are reasonable and give headroom for asset values to fall. Commercial property usually moves with the cycle and, in a downturn, one would expect valuations to reduce. That is why, in my opening contribution, I referred to action being taken to correct the economy and to bring us back to a path of potential development. The shorter we can make the downturn, the better it will be for the valuation of the assets.

I note the decisions of the Government affecting expenditure, resulting in savings of €400 million and €1 billion next year. These initial decisions are welcome and I note it is intended to take other decisions as the year goes on to correct the fiscal situation. That is extremely important. Taking action early will help to reduce the duration of the downturn and to instill confidence abroad in the management of our finances and our economy and it will be important to ensure the continuation of foreign direct investment.

The Deputy's other question has to do with markets and what the markets believe. Equity markets worldwide are affected. One only needs to look at what has happened in the past 48 hours to assess the impact of what is happening in the United States on equity markets globally. Irish equities are also affected. The weakening of the property market brings some negative sentiments into the minds of investors. Our overall equity prices increased significantly when the economy was growing strongly. I was looking at the figures before I came here. In January 2000 the ISEQ was down about 10% but the FTSE is down 23%, while euro stocks will be down 27%. S & P will be down 16%; the DAX, 10% and the Dow Jones, 3.8%. If one looks at the financial components of those indices, Irish financials are down about 22%, while elsewhere in Europe they are down about 18%. However, the FTSE and S & P are down 42% and 47%, respectively.

We are concerned, not with market prices or equities, but with the capital - the liquidity - of banks. This is what the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank focus on. On the basis of this and our contacts with the financial institutions, our banks are weathering the downturn, but it is not easy. This is not an easy situation but rather an extremely difficult one. The money markets are impaired. Money costs more. However, under the headings mentioned, Irish financials continue to weather the turbulence well. I do not have a crystal ball but the reality is we do stress tests on the basis of models validated by the IMF. We look at financial institutions on that basis. On the basis of preliminary results, we can say Irish financial institutions are weathering a very difficult situation well.

The Deputy referred to the deposit guarantee scheme. He said it was taking too much time in the context of deliberations taking place in Europe. We are expecting some results in the next few months. This is a process in which the Department of Finance is involved and it would know the up-to-date position. Our understanding is that in the next couple of months this process--

That is my worry. Has the bank tested its emergency response unit or whatever it likes to call it? This seems to be an element but it is not the only one. I seek an assurance that the emergency response system of the Central Bank has been stress-tested and that the elements of response are well honed.

Mr. John Hurley

We have done stress tests, both domestically and cross-border, during this turbulence. We stress-test with the involvement of the Department of Finance. We have what is termed a domestic standing group which includes the Department of Finance, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank. We come together and look at the response to a particular situation. This has happened. We assess the situation and learn from it. There also has been a cross-border stress test within the euro system, in which we played a part. We had to respond to a simulated cross-border crisis. As these are simulations, they have their limitations, which we have to accept. The reality is that they have been done. The domestic standing group meets regularly to assess the situation and its work is ongoing. It has paid particular attention to these issues in the past year.

The Deputy spoke about the 3% requirement under the Stability and Growth Pact. I said it was prudent to adhere to the requirements of the pact. We should be careful in departing from it, although I know it will not be easy to adhere to it in 2009. I reiterate the point I made in my opening remarks - over a number of decades and Administrations, Ireland has built a reputation for good economic management which has yielded good benefits. The significant investment we have attracted from other countries has changed the face of the economy. We should be slow to lose a reputation that has been built over a number of decades by various Administrations. We should be careful, therefore, in deciding to depart from the Stability and Growth Pact.

The National Pensions Reserve Fund has its own mandate, requirements and responsibilities. It has to assess any proposition on the basis of its mandate. Having read in the newspapers about the various proposals made, it is not clear to me how they could work or be implemented. I will make two points about the Irish system. Under the euro system, Irish financial institutions operate within a significantly advanced collateral framework. We were involved in the development of that system, through which significant collateral is available to Irish institutions. It is important to examine the current levels of credit. The figures for May indicate that credit continues to grow by 15%. The mortgage sector is growing by between 10% and 11%. Both figures are in excess of the average figures for the euro system. We have slowed from a high level of credit growth to a level of 15%, which level is continuing to decrease. We will see a further decrease in the next few months but need to remember that there continues to be a significant rate of credit growth. I have tried to cover all the points raised.

I welcome Mr. Hurley and his colleagues. More than one member of the committee has commented on a report in one of last Sunday's newspapers. Deputy Bruton referred to the suggestion made in the report that the National Treasury Management Agency would be allowed to recapitalise Irish banks. The officials can park that matter for the moment if they wish. I am aware that Senator Quinn has written to the Chairman on the subject and I am sure he will raise the issue. The officials can deal with it then, rather than having to cover it twice. The newspaper report also suggested that in the absence of consultation the Government should veto any increase in interest rates on the part of the European Central Bank. Perhaps the officials will outline their views in that regard. Deputy Bruton referred to something as well, which I do not believe Mr. Hurley touched on in his reply. He said that individuals or companies with turnovers in excess of €3 million do not seem to have any real protection because the Central Bank and the regulatory authorities do not supervise banks as regards these customers. This was discussed at the Joint Committee on Economic Regulatory Affairs a couple of months ago. I should like Mr. Hurley's views on this. Take the Irish sub-prime market where the lenders are in straight away, by and large, in cases where somebody defaults on his or her loan. There are enormous legal implications involved and the mortgage holder or whatever just cannot compete in court, whereas if the lenders were to hold back, somewhat, some arrangement might be ironed out. I wonder whether the Central Bank has any role in respect of those particular lenders.

Following on from that, I am worried that the same trend could overtake the mainstream banks, and that they might take a similar route. Obviously, they can well afford to take on mortgages, and in fairness, they operate a far more responsible regime. However, I just wondered whether this might be of some concern to the Central Bank.

Does the Central Bank monitor court proceedings being taken against the banks or does it have any statistics or role in that regard? Perhaps it does not. Similarly as regards cases that might be taken by staff members, do the banks have to report to the Central Bank on any such court proceedings? It is an area with which I am not very familiar with and I do not know what controls are in operation or what mechanisms the Central Bank has to deal with such occurrences. Perhaps Mr. Hurley might indicate what they are, if any.

Mr. John Hurley

I can come back to the National Treasury Management Agency point later. However, I shall try to deal with it on the basis that the NTMA has its own mandate and responsibilities - and it has the function within those responsibilities. As regards the ECB rate, we are a member of Eurosystem and so the rulings made at Frankfurt are joint decisions. I participate in those decisions and they are rulings for Eurosystem as a whole. There is no question of consultation in that regard. Eurosystem is independent and makes those decisions in accordance with the law, and the remit it has been given.

There is no question of a veto.

Mr. John Hurley

No, that does not arise. As regards the ECB and its rate, when I go to Eurosystem in Frankfurt, I am required to operate on the basis of Eurosystem as a whole, and not in the national interest. I cannot put on an Irish hat, but must operate in accordance with the requirements of Eurosystem as a whole. However, our inflation levels have been higher than the European average for some time. They are now closer, but when they were higher we lost a significant amount of competitiveness. As I mentioned earlier, we know from previous decades that if inflation gets hold and inflation expectations become anchored - and we have what are called second round effects where inflation spills out broadly into the economy - it does untold damage to the economy and increases unemployment. Usually, there is then a requirement for increased pay increases to follow inflation, more unemployment, further pay increases and more inflation. We have been there before, so it is necessary that we address inflation seriously because of the damage it does to the economy generally. It increases unemployment significantly and makes life very difficult for people on fixed incomes whose purchasing power is significantly reduced.

We have an interest in ensuring that inflation remains as low as possible. While inflation should improve within a year or so, the rate is quite high at present. However, as I noted at the outset, we must be extremely careful on an economy-wide basis not to compensate ourselves for relative price increases about which we can do nothing because this gives rise to higher inflation and more unemployment.

While this is a difficult, rather than an easy message, unless we face up to our present situation and take the correct decisions, the downturn will be prolonged. However, were we to face up to the situation and deal with it as I outlined at the outset, it is likely the downturn would be more shortlived. Moreover, it is highly likely that the risk in respect of some of the concerns people have, for example, regarding a serious reduction in the valuation of assets, might be reduced. Property, and commercial property in particular, follows the economic cycle. If the downturn is prolonged, the effects will be greater. It is important for us to do as we are doing. I greatly welcome the Government's decision, as well as the intention to take further decisions as the year passes. It will be critical to deal with this as quickly as possible to try to shorten the duration of the downturn.

Deputy Kenneally mentioned a number of issues that really are matters for the Financial Regulator. However, in respect of the sub-prime institutions mentioned by him, the Financial Regulator has been responsible for them since 1 February 2008. This was not the position before that date and applications for authorisation were to be submitted to the Financial Regulator prior to 30 April. Such processing has been ongoing since April. This is a new regime in which the Financial Regulator has responsibility and that was not the position previously.

As for court cases and the monitoring of same, that is a matter for the Financial Regulator and I do not have any information in this regard. However, it undoubtedly keeps in touch with developments that take place in respect of financial institutions.

As always, it is nice to welcome Mr. Hurley before the joint committee. I appreciate he has probably been having a fairly hard time of late. In the context of previous questions, it was reported that the decision made by the Governors of the European Central Bank, of whom Mr. Hurley is one, was unanimous in respect of increasing interest rates. I understand that Mr. Hurley is expected to act independently. However, if the European Central Bank is poised to continue raising interest rates for the foreseeable future, that is, over the next 12 to 18 months, does he agree it will make a difficult situation for Irish small and medium-sized business even more difficult? I refer to the trend within the European Central Bank to continue to raise interest rates to dampen down the fears of inflation, particularly in Germany, and to the traditionally conservative German approach to interest rate increases, which is understandable for historical reasons. Will it be the case that interest rates will continue to rise and that Mr. Hurley's point is that effectively, although he is the Irish representative, there is little he can do as Governor of the Irish Central Bank to explain that many of our businesses will have a much more difficult time? I refer in particular to the fact that Irish exporters export in significant quantities to both the United States and the United Kingdom. Continual increases in the value of the euro on the back of constant market interest rate increases, as witnessed today, make exporting difficult for many Irish businesses in what Americans often call the "real economy", not the construction sector. I speak for all committee members when I say that non-construction industries and businesses are most worried in this regard. Can Mr. Hurley offer the committee the hope that, when he goes to Frankfurt, consideration will be given to the Irish position?

I do not know whether the next matter was included in the questions on stress testing. It has been reported in a number of media sources and The Economist that there has been a significant re-pricing of risk in terms of Irish Government bonds. Until recently, those bonds were priced at the top rate gold standard. However, the risk premium in respect of public debt will increase rapidly. What difficulties does Mr. Hurley foresee? Several times, he has referred to poor sentiment towards Ireland and, in particular, our commercial banks. Is that sentiment worsening now that the risk rating on bonds are increasing?

Various Ministers and Mr. Hurley have stated that the economy is in a different place than it was in the 1970s and 1980s when Government debt was high, which I accept. However, there are extraordinary levels of corporate debt and high levels of personal debt. A difference between then and now is that Government debt is lower, but corporate and private debt are higher. I do not understand the statistics on the credit card market. Mr. Hurley and the Financial Services Authority have a role in this respect. Statistics on individuals show a decline in month-after repayments on credit cards last year and this year. By and large, well-off middle class people have no difficulty in clearing their credit cards, which the committee advises. People should not use credit cards for long-term debt financing because doing so is expensive. However, the rate of month-after repayments is decreasing.

Has Mr. Hurley considered discussing the issue with the banks? In many cases, they have pushed cheap credit. For example, students get credit cards even though they have no personal financial histories and have probably not held non-summer permanent jobs. Will Mr. Hurley examine the availability of credit? By pushing it so relentlessly, the banking sector has been responsible for drawing people into credit traps. For example, would paying 20% instead of 10% of one's credit card charges reduce the debt profile?

Mr. Hurley discussed the Government being sensible in its cutbacks, efficiencies and investments in projects that will be of assistance, in which respect I agree.

What about the bankers who get large salaries? I know Mr. Hurley is not paid anything like the sums paid to those in the commercial banks, which Mr. Hurley supervises. People earn millions in salary and stock options, with attractive tax effective schemes in respect of salary. If the rest of us, particularly those on fixed incomes, are facing a push on commodity and fuel prices, will Mr. Hurley ask the bankers that their compensation be cut in half? Many of them would still be earning several million per year. We had a call for a cut of €1 in the minimum wage from one of the industry associations this morning on the radio. At the weekend at Oxygen, temporary workers had to sleep in stables. Will Mr. Hurley call on bankers to cut their compensation packages?

In the US and other countries, the banks are being required to inject extra capital, in particular to seek rights issues. Does Mr. Hurley see the Irish banks looking for rights issues from shareholders and investors?

I have raised the matter of contracts for difference at this committee and in discussions on finance with the Minister. These became a particular feature of the Irish Stock Exchange two years ago. The Minister for Finance decided not to have a small stamp duty charge in respect of contracts for difference. A year ago, the Irish exchange consisted of contracts for difference and almost nothing else. Does Mr. Hurley think that allowing the Stock Exchange, the Irish banks, and the Irish brokerage houses to encourage betting on shares through contracts for difference was unwise? Should there have been more regulation of investment vehicles? Many of those involved in contracts for difference are big players, have much advice available to them and should have known better. Using these vehicles has made the position of Irish stocks and shares even riskier. The potential loss to high flyers is even riskier again. Does Mr. Hurley have a comment on contracts for difference?

Mr. John Hurley

I will try to go through the questions. Regarding the European Central Bank, Governors do not wear a national hat when attending the governing council meetings. Our responsibility is to formulate policy for the euro area as a whole but I have a full say around the table in that debate. I must bring froward views that are in the interest of the euro system as a whole.

Following the recent meeting, it was made clear that the governing council had no bias with regard to the future monetary policy stance. Our future decisions will continue to be determined by incoming data. There is no commitment to any future action nor is there any ex ante decision. That was the position of the last governing council meeting.

The vote was unanimous, as reported in the media.

Mr. John Hurley

It was a unanimous decision.

Mr. Hurley is the Irish representative and Irish businesses are being crucified, particularly those trading in dollars and sterling. It is a difficult point for much of the Irish economy. Is Ireland so small that it does not count? Can anything be done - I am leaving construction out of this and referring only to what the Americans call the "real economy"?

Mr. John Hurley

Each Governor has the same weight around that table and I contribute to the debate in the same way as every other Governor and each Governor has the same vote. However, I have to take decisions on the basis of Eurosystem as a whole. I referred earlier to the fact that inflation in our own economy is a serious problem too. It has a deleterious effect on economic growth and employment and it is important that it is kept in check. There is no trade off between inflation and growth. Our view in the governing council is that controlling inflation is the best possible way to encourage growth.

What about an over-valued currency like the euro?

Mr. John Hurley

I would not comment on the exchange rate. It was made very clear at the G8 meeting that excessive volatility is undesirable in exchange markets. Other than that, I would not make any comment.

In terms of risk, the bond market and the reference to spreads made by the Deputy, Irish bond yields were very tight in recent years because we had budget surpluses. Irish spreads have widened by about 20 basis points this year and now stand at approximately 40 basis points above German Government bond yields. They increased this year slightly more than those in Austria, Spain and Belgium, for example, but less than Greece and Italy. Some of the figures in the article referred to by the Deputy were perhaps exaggerated. In some of those countries, the increase was 30 base points while in our case, it was 20. It certainly reflects a deterioration in our position but other countries have also deteriorated. When one examines the figures, one will see a deterioration in respect of some countries but not as much in others.

The Deputy also referred to our contracts for difference, CFD, position. Contracts for difference can be useful for liquidity in a market but when the amounts become large or there is no transparency in the situation, that is not good for the market. The Deputy may have noted recently that the Financial Regulator is examining the situation, in close co-operation with his colleagues in the Financial Services Authority in the UK because of the linkages between the markets and stock markets. Close consideration is being given, both here and in the United Kingdom, to the best approach to this issue.

Are contracts for difference not now the main mechanism for shorting stocks? If the Governor is worried about shorting stocks in the Irish banks, is it not time that he considered a heavier degree of regulation rather than regulation with a light hand?

Mr. John Hurley

Any action that will be taken is currently being considered by the Financial Regulator. I cannot say any more than that. The regulator is consulting his counterparts in the United Kingdom. I cannot add anything further on that at present.

Deputy Burton spoke about personal debt and it is true that our debt levels have increased very significantly. Indeed, I have spoken more than most about that in recent years. However, one must also take into account the net asset value of households and families. There are assets to be set against the debt but these are not uniformly spread. That must be borne in mind, even though the growth in debt has been very significant in recent times.

Credit card debt as a percentage of household debt is 1.45% and, as a percentage of disposable income, it is 3%. This can of course be a significant burden in individual cases but the Deputy raised an important point in regard to advertising. The issue is being pursued under the codes operated by the Financial Regulator with a view to addressing problems as they arise. I do not have anything further to say about it because it is primarily a matter for the Financial Regulator.

In terms of capital, I noted earlier that the Irish banking system remains relatively healthy when measured by the usual standards of asset quality and solvency. At this point, we do not expect banks to have to raise capital by way of, for example, a rights issue during the course of 2008. This view is reflected in reports issued by rating agencies. In recent weeks, one such agency has stated its belief that the Irish banking system will remain solid because it is underpinned by good profit margins and clear strategies that are being adjusted to new operating environments, sound liquidity and adequate capitalisation.

I asked about the salaries of leading executives of the banks.

Mr. John Hurley

The Financial Regulator has said that salaries are primarily a matter for the boards in question but he raised the issue of whether the appropriate incentives are being offered. I have no further comment to make on that.

I welcome Mr. Hurley and thank him for the education he has given us this afternoon. He enlightened me in many ways.

Two weeks ago, we met representatives of the major banks. I am not sure whether the representative of the Bank of Ireland was flying a kite when he stated:

There is a significant liquidity issue. In the United States, two very substantial, formerly state-owned bodies, which are very closely aligned to the US Government, namely, the Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, take mortgages and create collateral from them.

He went on to speak about the Pfandbriefe system in Germany, describing it as “a business which receives significant help from the Financial Regulator and Department of Finance.” It seemed to me that he was suggesting the Government should consider buying packages of mortgages from the banks, perhaps in respect of developers who have large portfolios of first time buyers. Perhaps I am being suspicious in wondering whether the Central Bank has been approached by the banks with a similar suggestion. We saw what happened over the weekend to the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac institutions in the United States. Do the banks have concerns in this regard to the extent that suggestions have reached Mr. Hurley’s ears? I am not sure how they would suggest this should be done. Perhaps it could be managed by the National Treasury Management Agency or the National Pensions Reserve Fund. I would think that any suggestions in this regard would very quickly come to Mr. Hurley’s attention. I have serious concerns about the matter.

Mr. Hurley spoke about taking decisions promptly in order to protect the economy. Two proposals were made in recent days, on reducing the minimum wage and on a pay freeze, respectively. Has Mr. Hurley a view on whether these steps would be useful because, if they are done promptly, they may be tough but would they make us more competitive? I am not sure whether Mr. Hurley can comment on my concerns about competitiveness.

One of the reasons we are not as competitive as we were is the fact that we react to price increases, particularly the increase in world food prices. When we attend the WTO Doha talks we only seem to represent the interests of the farming community but our interests are now much wider. In trying to influence Mr. Mandelson we do not represent the interests of modern Ireland but those of the Ireland of 20 or 30 years ago. We need to identify the costs that are applicable to modern Ireland and should aim to reduce those costs to make ourselves more competitive.

I was the Minister of State with responsibility for that area some years ago and we did represent the other side at WTO talks.

I do not have a sense of that being the case.

Mr. John Hurley

I do not know of any specific proposals relating to the issue the Senator mentioned. I have read newspaper comments on the matter but I am not clear as to what is being considered or how it could be implemented. Our financial institutions have access to a very developed liquidity and collateral framework within the euro system and that functions well. Since the beginning of the turmoil the ECB responded quickly and strongly to inject liquidity into the markets. The Central Bank acts on a decentralised basis in that regard and it is a large operation which has worked well in providing liquidity to the system.

As I said in my response to Deputy Bruton, lending is continuing in the Irish market and showed 60% year-on-year growth up to May. It may well fall over the next few months but, as of May, lending continued to be strong. The figure is in excess of the average across the euro area and that should be borne in mind when we consider some of the proposals which have been made.

I will not comment specifically on wage developments other than to say such matters are being discussed in the social partnership talks. Many factors contribute to our weakening competitiveness and pay is certainly a significant one, though it is not the only one. I hope decisions are taken in respect of the pay discussions which are in keeping with restoring our competitiveness. However, I will leave the details of those decisions for the social partnership talks.

The Chairman beat me to the draw on the question about competitiveness. I will not comment on the position the Government might take in the WTO talks. Food prices are a significant factor in the current rising inflation rate. We can do something about certain aspects of the rising inflation rate but nothing about others. We have to focus on the areas we can do something about.

I welcome Mr. Hurley, Mr. Grimes and Mr. O'Connell and thank them for their attendance. Can they explain the difference in the policy of the European Union, which is to protect the value of the euro, and that of the US, which seems to have allowed the dollar to devalue to control interest rates and inflation? The US authorities do not appear to be too concerned about the reducing value of the dollar.

Throughout the presentation Mr. Hurley said the Central Bank had issued warnings. I have read some of them but people ignored them. I find it extraordinary that we have a system that allowed financial institutions to behave disgracefully. Even the Governor of the Central Bank had no control over them. If we were living in the days before we joined the euro the Governor of the Central Bank would have taken action either by raising interest rates or through other restrictions. That we are in the euro seems to have allowed these people to proceed and ignore everyone. What is the value of the Financial Regulator and the Governor of the Central Bank?

I am deeply concerned about rising interest rates because, as everyone in business knows, when interest rates go up investment stops. People with money will leave it on deposit rather than lose it through risky investment. I do not know what is happening in this situation. Neither the banks, who came before this committee, nor today's delegates can explain why banks' share prices are continuing to fall. There is a total lack of confidence.

There is a difference between now and the late seventies to early eighties and this is where financial institutions come in. When one got a mortgage it was controlled by being either a multiple of one's salary or a percentage of one's income. If there was an increase it was on a lower percentage of one's salary. However, a high percentage of salaries now go towards mortgage repayments because we allowed house prices to escalate at a ridiculous rate. The traditional figure used in the 1970s and 1980s was 25% - one could not get a mortgage if repayments exceeded 25% of one's income. If there was an increase at least it was on 25% of one's income. This no longer applies. Now an increase can be on anything up to 40% of one's income and this is rising.

Deputy Burton referred to personal debt and I ask the delegates to comment on whether a number of the mortgages they refer to are re-mortgages. People with lower mortgages are moving around from one institution to another due to personal debt. Each time this occurs it is recorded as a new mortgage. People I have spoken to in the mortgage business tell me they receive no phone calls at their desks. Solicitors, especially those involved in conveyancing, are letting staff go. We have a real problem here. I do not underestimate the integrity of the three gentlemen before me for a moment but somebody somewhere is codding someone and I want to know where this is happening. Institutions told us there is a liquidity problem when they came before the committee. The delegates have told us that this is not the case. Today it was announced that Davy Stockbrokers are letting staff go and others are taking a 5% salary cut. I read in The Irish Times that the standing of one of our major banks on the world scene is to be downgraded. Yet, the delegates tell me that our banks are fairly solid and have retained their grading.

What can we do to restore confidence? I do not want to spend my life talking negatively. How can we do things to get us out of this terrible mess? Given the latest scene in the US, wherein, out of the blue, two major organisations controlling 50% of mortgages in the entire United States must be bailed out, how can anyone tell us the financial institutions are solid? It never ceases to amaze me. I would like to know what control, if any, the Central Bank and the regulator have over financial institutions. What is the view of the European Central Bank in terms of the value of currency as against lower interest rates and inflation? Are we protecting the euro, given what is happening in the United States? Can we learn any lessons that can be implemented straight away? How are we to deal with institutions which have behaved, in my opinion, totally irresponsibly?

The final matter on which I wish to comment is one I raised with the banks when their representatives came before the committee. People tell me about a ratio with regard to land banks, lending and so on. Does the Central Bank have some means of valuing a piece of land? I have yet to find out the value of a piece of land, especially development land, because it varies. In one piece of land a local authority may allow one house per acre, while in another it might allow 35 units per acre. All of these types of land have different values. I raised this before with regard to the potential development in Ballsbridge, at which time banks were chasing each other to lend money. The price of land has been driven up to a point at which it is impossible to get a return on one's money unless huge densities are involved. However, in that case the local authority did not seem to be of a mind to allow densities of that magnitude. What value is put on such pieces of land in the books of the banks that are lending this money? There is a piece of land nearly opposite my own home on which somebody paid €22 million for a house with around 1.75 acres. There is no way one could get one's money back unless one put up high-rise apartments in the middle of bungalows.

They would block out the Deputy's light.

I was glad to hear the heckler was quiet today and I do not want him to start now.

I have heard all the questions about that land before.

I am asking the Governor. Does the Deputy mind? I hope he has no objections.

Absolutely not.

I thank the Deputy.

The point I am making relates to the value of land that is being put on the books of banks when they give these loans. Deputy Andrews may not understand the point I am trying to make but I hope Mr. Hurley does.

Mr. John Hurley

The Deputy raised a number of points and I will try to cover as many as I can.

There has been international turmoil for the past 12 months and our banks are not immune from that. The money market is impaired. Money is costing more and is more difficult to get. Our banks are in that situation and I hope I did not give the impression earlier that this was not the case. All banks and financial institutions are affected by what is happening worldwide at the moment. However, we do not have any exposure, or we have negligible exposure, to the sub-prime market and some of the products that are causing difficulties in the United States, and as a consequence our banks have not had to take the write-downs that have been taken by other financial institutions. I am not sure that is fully understood, but it is the position.

It would give great confidence if somebody such as Mr. Hurley would say openly that if this is the case, the banks are undervalued in the stock market at present. Nobody else seems able to say it. If that happened there would be a sudden change of attitude. When people see bank shares dropping and dropping they become very nervous. It would be helpful if somebody such as Mr. Hurley were to say that those shares are undervalued given the information available and the stress tests that have been carried out.

Mr. John Hurley

I do not really comment on market and equity prices. When responding to Deputy Bruton earlier about what was happening to financial equity prices around the world, I said they had been affected globally - certainly in the developed world - and that there had been a significant fall in prices. Our shares of financials have fallen as well. I was asked a question about this when I was launching the annual report recently. I said that I did not comment on such things but I believed that perhaps the drop in prices has been overstated. Perhaps I ought not intrude where the markets know better. It seems to me that the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator must concentrate on those things for which we have responsibility and must try to deal with them well. That is what we are trying to do.

It is true that we no longer have the interest rate instrument. We have an international financial market, a single market with financial flows across borders within the European Union, and the euro system. International banks operate here in competition with domestic banks. It is a very complex situation. During this period the Financial Regulator has concentrated on ensuring that banks test the loans they give to make sure there is an ability to repay them. That much has been done and those tests have been strengthened since 2006, as I already mentioned. I listed a number of things the regulator can do within the capital requirements directive, CRD, to increase the capital weighting required of certain assets and that has been done.

We are in the global economy, functioning with financial flows that move across borders. We had a very strong economy and capital moves to such an economy. Essentially that is the situation but action has been taken. It is true that since 2005 we have been saying that the increase in property prices and the growth in debt levels were too high. At that stage it looked as if the property market was easing but that immediately stopped and reversed. I spoke out very quickly, as did the Financial Regulator, and the actions I mentioned were taken. That was probably ahead of actions taken in other economies.

I mentioned weightings and loan to value ratios in respect of general loans and loans for speculative commercial property. Financial institutions are expected to ensure when they give a loan that the loan can be repaid. Their spokespersons will report that they are not that concerned about values without the ability to repay the loan, or income streams. Some of these income streams come from different assets within business portfolios or across collateral lines. The Financial Regulator follows up on these. That is the situation. The capital ratios are there to provide some buffer.

As I mentioned, strength of the economy and commercial property values usually go with the cycle. If the cycle is weakening that clearly has an impact on commercial property valuations.

Surely if a person paid an amount, "X", for land two or three years ago its value is now "X minus". How much is the minus element? That is the big question but how is it reflected in the balance sheet of the banks?

Mr. John Hurley

It is--

That is part of the problem if we are not afraid to say so. People know this and are afraid that something big is going to happen. There is exposure and a black hole of which people are afraid. That is what is wrong.

We have some questions also.

We will let the Deputy in.

Excuse me, Deputy Andrews--

I would prefer if we restricted ourselves to questions, rather than doom and gloom lectures.

The Deputy will have an opportunity to contribute.

Mr. John Hurley

To reiterate, it is the ability to repay that is important; that is what the financial institutions consider. I spoke of the strength of the economy and the actions required to redress the situation. It is important that decisions are taken in the areas mentioned. It was indicated during the Dáil debate that there was a willingness to take the necessary decisions and protect the reputation we had earned over decades and across Administrations. If that action is taken quickly, as I believe it will be, the downturn will be shortened. Many problems occurred when the downturn was lengthened and this fed into valuations generally. It is critical to attempt to shorten the downturn and speed up the improving sentiment that could occur after broad action is taken next year and the following year.

I welcome the Governor and his colleagues. There have been questions on stress-testing and the banks' ability to withstand the downturn. Mr. Hurley mentioned the parameters for these tests. Is the possibility of one or two larger developers going bust included in the stress-testing, or could the banks cope with such an eventuality?

The Stability and Growth Pact requires Ireland to keep its deficit to 3% of GDP. Given that it is now 2.75%, is it likely to be maintained or kept below 3%?

Permanent TSB and Halifax raised their interest rates by a margin greater than the quarter of one percentage point ECB interest rate increased. Is this something over which the Central Bank has any control? Are other lenders likely to follow these decisions? For how long does the Central Bank anticipate interest rates will rise? Does it see any relief in sight for mortgage holders?

Mr. John Hurley

One of the factors examined in stress-testing is credit risk, which means the ability of institutions to absorb a higher level of non-performing assets. We further examine the associated provisions that might be required to deal with this, without causing a significant reduction in capital. The stress test scenario involves a serious downturn, with unemployment rising sharply and housing output reducing. In that context, the non-performing assets are examined. It is a serious test. I mentioned in response to other questions that there were limitations to this exercise, but it is only one of many instruments used to try to assess the health of financial institutions. Without serious action we would be in danger of breaching the Stability and Growth Pact next year. I mentioned I thought we should be very wary of doing that and think about it very seriously. It is important for our reputation nationally; we have earned this over many decades and we should protect it. I have every reason to believe that will be the situation from the statements made.

Higher rates have been mentioned. These are driven by the money market impairment I referred to earlier. I raised the difficulties Irish financial institutions are having in the context of the international turmoil. It is as a consequence of this we have the interest rate spreads.

Are other banks likely to follow?

Mr. John Hurley

It is a competitive issue. I could not say that, but there is no doubt banks are having to pay more for money than in the past. In my response to Deputy Burton I referred to the interest rate situation. The position of the ECB since the last meeting was that there was no bias as to future decisions on monetary policy, no predetermination and that this would depend on incoming data.

I welcome the Governor, Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Grimes. The banks appeared before this committee on 2 July. I specifically requested that they be invited because small businesses and mortgage holders were coming to me about access to credit. We met the banks and they indicated there was a lack of liquidity in the market. I felt the most appropriate course of action subsequently was to request the Chairman to ask the Governor of the Central Bank to appear before the committee. I want to approach this in a proactive way.

First, reference was made by Mr. Hurley as far back as 2004 to a problem with the housing market overheating. It took two years before any changes, stress testing, or weightings under the capital requirements directive occurred, and by that stage the horse had bolted. We have now been in a credit crisis for more than a year. Mr. Hurley has said the banking system is safe and loans are going up. I want to bring this down to practicalities. I note from the Central Bank's most recent monthly statistic reports to the end of May that the funding given from the ECB to banks and credit institutions in Ireland fell by 3%. Why has this happened? Is the ECB downgrading the value of the assets or collateral being provided by the banks? In terms of liquidity, particularly in the business sector, the amount of loans given by way of overdrafts between March and May fell by €709 million. There is clearly a problem with liquidity.

Second, no matter what point is made in reference to stress testing, the international market does not have confidence in the stress testing that has occurred. A number of weeks ago Commissioner McCreevy sought EU legislation on stress testing for credit rating agencies. There is a problem that must be addressed. Mr. Hurley has stated in a financial stability report, in quarterly bulletins, in the annual report just published and here today that the banks are sound. This is not reflected in the share price of the banks and in access to funding. There is a general view that there is a problem with bad debts in the Irish banking sector. Does Mr. Hurley believe such a problem exists? There is a general view at the moment that there is a problem in terms of bad debts in the Irish banking sector. Is there such a problem? If so, what is the level of the problem? The Central Bank works with the banks on a regular basis. What needs to happen now is for the international markets to be given a warts and all view of the Irish banking sector and to be told whether it is properly secure on a capital basis. To return to the point made by my colleague, Deputy Barrett, which needs to be answered, does the Central Bank believe the balance sheets of the banks are sound? Are they understated or overstated? The key point is whether the Central Bank will work with the banks to address the concerns of the international banking sector with regard to the stability of the Irish banking sector.

I note that in the presentation there is no reference to what was stated on page 14 of the Central Bank's annual report, which goes to the heart of the matter I am trying to have addressed. In the report it was stated:

...since the turbulence began last autumn, there are increasing signs that part of banks' response to the changed circumstances is to limit lending growth. If this were to become significant, it could hamper economic growth through limiting consumer and investment spending across the global economy.

The Governor also mentioned that the Irish banks have no exposure to the sub-prime sector. However, the two institutions, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were not necessarily exposed to the sub-prime sector. They lent on the basis of sound mortgages. This has now moved into another sector. In Ireland we have a problem in the construction sector in terms of developers being unable to repay their loans. What is required is an element of confidence on the part of the Central Bank. If the banking sector is as sound as the Central Bank says it is, the Central Bank needs to make a further statement that determines the level of bad debt and contains a commitment to providing proper liquidity in the market. Rather than figures that relate to the 3% reduction in the level of funding from the ECB between December 2007 and June 2008, I would like a commitment from the Central Bank that proper liquidity will be provided. I want the Central Bank to play a proactive role in stabilising the international viewpoint of Ireland. One may talk about stress testing and so on, but currently international markets have no confidence in that. Perhaps the Governor would address these points.

Mr. John Hurley

Before I try to answer some of the questions, let me say that financial institutions internationally have negative sentiments against them. We see it every day in their share prices. Irish banks are part of that story.

I do not disagree. I am looking purely at the Irish context and our view as legislators and as parliamentarians.

Mr. John Hurley

It must be understood that there is a relationship between what is happening here and what is happening internationally.

I do not disagree.

Mr. John Hurley

I do not believe we can separate the two. We have an additional issue, the weakening property market. There is an interaction between that and what is happening internationally. It is this interaction that is causing the speed of the downturn in the economy. The reality is that we would be much better able to weather the adjustment that is inevitable and necessary in our housing market if the international shock had not hit at the same time. That was the downside risk against which we warned. There was no downside risk at the time.

With respect to the Governor, he stated in 2004 that there was a problem in terms of rising house prices, but nothing was done until 2006.

Mr. John Hurley

I do not think that is true.

That is true. I have it here. Mr. Hurley said consumer confidence would be hit and householders would react by attempting to consolidate their finances, saving more in the process and cutting back on consumption. Banks would also be liable to cut back on lending as collateral values deteriorated. That was as far back as 2004.

Mr. John Hurley

No. We were advising back then of the growth that was taking place in credit and also the growth that was taking place in house prices. The risk we were pointing out was the big danger of the interaction between that risk and what might happen internationally. The international risk is a much more recent event but even as far back as 2004 and 2005, the Financial Regulator was discussing these issues with banks and setting out arrangements with them to ensure that ability to pay was at the heart of the loans that were given.

Regardless of the international scene, surely one would have regard to the fact that the IMF and other organisations said that the sustainable number of houses was 45,000. Outside of the international scene, surely the Central Bank should have moved quicker? However, that is getting away from the main point.

Mr. John Hurley

I want to deal with that issue briefly. A slowdown was taking place throughout 2005. The problem was that it did not continue. Once that changed, very significant action was taken by the Financial Regulator. However, the regulator had been taking action in advance of that in discussion with financial institutions in ensuring that the ability to pay was at the heart of the loans that were given.

Why did the Central Bank not curtail 100% mortgages? Many of the financial institutions from my point of view would have been quite happy if they were curtailed. Not all financial institutions were doing it.

Mr. John Hurley

The regulator moved very quickly in terms of the capital required. There are very few arrears on 100% mortgages. The focus has to be on the areas where the risks are higher.

Going back to the international scene--

Mr. John Hurley

The international situation, therefore, is of critical importance and we have to assess and judge what is happening in that context. We have an additional problem, that is, the weakening of the housing market which is unavoidable but is necessary and important for the medium-term health of this economy. In terms of the liquidity situation, the Deputy mentioned the ECB--

Why has it gone down?

Mr. John Hurley

Perhaps I can get the figures from the Deputy. Our understanding of the liquidity situation in terms of the Irish financial institutions is that there has not been a reduction in the overall level of lending being given by the ECB to the Irish financial institutions, whether it is the broad financial institutions encompassing the IFSC or the domestic institutions. In both cases, the level of funding is, if anything, marginally up.

Am I correct in saying that the level of deposits being held by institutions is down?

Mr. John Hurley

The growth in deposits has slowed a little. That is a different issue from the ECB position.

The ECB position is clear. At the end of December the level was €39.5 billion whereas at the end of June it was €38.373 billion. That is taken from Table C2 on the monthly statistics report.

Mr. John Hurley

One can get exceptional end of year figures for example, and the figures vary from month to month.

That is not consistent with the difficulty with liquidity. We were told by the banks when they appeared before the committee on 2 July--

Mr. John Hurley

I believe there is a misunderstanding here. The liquidity by banks is at the demand of the banks subject to the collateral decision of the ECB. If they require liquidity and they have the collateral they apply for it.

Is their collateral being downgraded?

Mr. John Hurley

Absolutely not. It is the same collateral system. There is no difference between any country in respect of collateral.

As of now, how is collateral calculated? Is the ECB increasing the level of discount on collateral given by the banks in Ireland?

Mr. John Hurley

No. That is not the position. There is no difference between this country and any other country. If anything, the level of liquidity that has been given has increased. We will get variations from one month to another and at the end of the year it might have been higher than it would usually be but there is no--

Why were we told by the Bank of Ireland representatives when they came before this committee on 2 July that there are problems with liquidity?

Mr. John Hurley

On the problems with liquidity, if one can borrow on the wholesale money market it will be at a better rate. It is more difficult to get money on the wholesale money market and it is costing more.

By implication, is Mr. Hurley saying that if banks require money from the European Central Bank currently they will have no difficulty in accessing that finance?

Mr. John Hurley

No, provided the institution has the eligible collateral. As I mentioned earlier in response to a number of questions, we have a broad collateral framework. If financial institutions have eligible collateral they can apply to the ECB through the term options for that and get liquidity. There is no decrease in the level of liquidity given by the ECB to Irish financial institutions, either Irish Financial Services Centre institutions or domestic institutions. We may get variations from month to month but there is no--

Is there a cap on the level of funding the ECB can give to Irish banks?

Mr. John Hurley

No. There is a collateral system in place. Banks apply for it on the basis of liquidity and bid the amounts they seek. That is the system that functions for every country within the euro system. There is no difference between this country and any other country.

Will the Central Bank provide some level of confidence to the international market, both in terms of funding at wholesale level and contingency measures regarding potential bad debts for the banking sector? Mr. Hurley has not addressed that point.

Mr. John Hurley

We have tried to do that in our discussions with the banks and in the number of instruments the Financial Regulator uses, for example, it assesses the capital, the liquidity situation, the asset and arrears situation, in regular dialogue with the banks and, in addition, there is the stress testing exercise I mentioned. These are preliminary results, as I mentioned, and we discussed with Deputy Bruton the limitations on such an exercise but the macro-economic test is for a very serious downturn, far more serious than we are experiencing.

Has the Central Bank factored into that major defaulting on loans within, say, the construction sector?

Mr. John Hurley

Deputy Andrews asked the same question and my response was that within the testing there is testing of credit risk. In assessing credit risk we look at the ability to absorb a higher level of non-performing loans across the loans book to assess whether additional provisioning is required for that and whether that provisioning would cause a significant reduction in capital. That is the type of assessment that is made.

Mr. Hurley puts the fall in the price of shares purely down to international factors.

Mr. John Hurley

No. The international factor is a significant part of it worldwide but clearly some of the negative sentiment towards Irish shares would be linked to the weakening property market. It would be instructive also to examine the ISEQ index going back to, say, 2000 and assess it against other indices. I am not here to talk about share prices.

It is an integral part of it.

Mr. John Hurley

If we look at the international financials, for example, and Mr. Grimes has given me the data from this morning, international banks are all down significantly. If we examine the indices going back to 2000, strip out the financials and make comparisons, we will see that the Irish--

With all due respect to Mr. Hurley, just because it is happening elsewhere does not mean we want all our ships to go down together. Our role is to protect the Irish.

Mr. John Hurley

It is very difficult. Where sentiment against financial institutions internationally is taking place we can expect that the same would happen in regard to Irish institutions. We have the added problem of a weakening housing market.

Mr. John Hurley

This goes back to the interaction of the two shocks I mentioned. There was the new shock that has come on board since last year. Within a short period of that shock hitting, I indicated publicly that the interaction of these two shocks would have a significant effect on growth prospects for this economy. We are a small open economy and we cannot be immune to what is happening internationally. The financial sentiment internationally will affect us and we have to trade into a slowing global economy in a situation where our competitiveness is weakened. That is why I mentioned at the beginning that there are certain actions we need to take to improve our prospects. If we do that, we will certainly increase growth next year and return to potential growth gradually. I said at the beginning that this was not guaranteed, but we can achieve this if we take the correct actions.

Mr. Hurley said there is not a problem in terms of liquidity, but we have heard from people on the ground that they cannot get access to credit. We have to work together in this respect.

Mr. John Hurley

When the representatives of the financial institutions appeared before the committee, it was clear that a number of changes were happening. There is a reduction in demand in certain cases. In other cases, the ability to repay loans has weakened. The situation is changing and that will reflect the change that is taking place in the economy. Inevitably in this type of situation, some people will find it more difficult if their ability to repay has reduced. It is one of the criterion on which the Financial Regulator requires banks to test applicants, namely, that they have the ability to repay loans.

I thank the Governor, Mr. Hurley, Mr. Grimes and Mr. O'Connell for attending this meeting.

The number of times - approximately eight - that the European Central Bank has increased interest rates, particularly during the past two years, is unacceptable. Young homeowners who are facing negative equity are the people who are suffering, as well as those with businesses. The message the Governor needs to bring back to the next ECB meeting is that all these interest rate increases are hurting people.

What steps does Mr. Hurley plan to take to restore confidence in the financial markets, the money markets and the Stock Exchange? He has talked about what the Government needs to do, but what will he, as Governor of the Central Bank, do? Can he give all the Irish banks a clean bill of health, given that there appears to be a lack of confidence in regard to them? Has he any plans to issue a statement to the market?

Regarding the housing market collapse, why did the Central Bank not do more to prevent the housing market bubble occurring in the first place? Many banks gave 100% mortgages and developers were loaned ridiculous amounts of money, hundreds of millions of euro, to purchase sites that will now not be sold for that amount. Why did the Central Bank not intervene in that respect?

Mr. John Hurley

In regard to the action being taken, I referred to the significant action that has been taken to inject massive liquidity into the euro system and the different markets across that system, which has been undertaken by the ECB of which we are a part. That injection of liquidity continues. It is substantial and it is a key response of central banks to the turmoil in the markets.

I dealt with the Stock Exchange issue in the sense that the sentiment towards financials is a global phenomenon on the basis of what we have seen, linked to our weakening property market here. On the basis of our assessments, the financial institutions are well capitalised and their level of liquidity is satisfactory. However, they are operating within an impaired global money market. This means that wholesale funding or term funding is more difficult to obtain and also that it is more costly. Business is, therefore, more difficult. The increases in rates feed back into the economy and also influence the retail rates to which the Deputy refers.

Earlier in the meeting I tried to outline the actions we were taking. On 100% mortgages, the capital was increased by the Financial Regulator quite quickly. Action has been taken in a number of areas. However, we are part of the Eurosystem, for which interest rates are determined within it. That was part of the price to be paid for membership of the system. There are many advantages to being part of it but we have to take it as a package.

Is there anything the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland can do to boost confidence in the market?

Mr. John Hurley

I do not have a role in respect of financial markets. Essentially, I have outlined the position, as we see it, on financial institutions. As stated, in international financial markets there is turmoil. Financial institutions here must function in that context.

The ECOFIN Ministers decided on a road map which has been designed to try to deal with some of the issues that have arisen. Central banks across the European Union were involved in that process. EU Finance Ministers are trying to encourage greater transparency with regard to the exposure of the banks and to take action in respect thereof. They are also considering what are the appropriate values for assets at a time when the market is impaired.

A previous speaker referred to the credit rating. That matter is being considered and Commissioner McCreevy has spoken about it. There are issues to be addressed in respect of it.

A number of actions, involving input from central banks and EU Finance Ministers, are being taken. I refer, in particular, to the ECOFIN road map and the Financial Stability Forum which has also analysed this matter on behalf of the G7 Ministers. A great deal is being done at international level to try to improve the position. However, there is fragility in financial markets, as evidenced by events involving two major financial institutions in the United States which occurred last week. These are two very different institutions and their business accounts for approximately 50% of the mortgage market in the United States. They are not in the retail business; they purchase mortgages from the lenders and package them and then sell bonds, with the backing of those mortgages, to create liquidity in the market. Essentially, their weakness is a result of what is happening in the American mortgage market. The market in Ireland is very different and its exposure to sub-prime issues is low. Our asset base is stronger.

Therefore, Mr. Hurley is not in a position to take action.

I thank the Governor and his colleagues for attending. Perhaps, as the meeting draws to a close, we might climb out of the pit of despair where we have been for the past two and a half hours. The Governor answered all of the questions put to him in an extremely convincing manner. More importantly, however, he suggested a way in which we might weather the storm and move forward. It has been suggested that the National Treasury Management Agency might consider investing some of the funds available to it in socially and economically productive projects in this country which might help to bring about the improvements suggested by the Governor in his presentation. I do not know whether he is precluded from offering an opinion on this as a tactic or a strategy to be used but I would be interested in his comments.

Mr. John Hurley

Issues relating to the housing market and so on are matters for the Government. I would not get into them but, as I stated in my presentation, the NTMA has its own remit and role and lends on the basis of that remit. It has its own board to which it must answer. The agency must assess proposals it receives on that basis. We discussed a different proposal from the one made by the Deputy on social housing.

I did not refer to social housing. I referred to schools building projects, investment in research and development at third level, telecommunications infrastructure, etc. to improve the productivity of the economy. Does Mr. Hurley have a view on investing in such projects?

Mr. John Hurley

I am sorry, I misunderstood. The NTMA assesses all the proposals it receives and makes a judgment on the basis of its remit. I do not know whether there are specific proposals in this regard but imagine it assesses all proposals it receives in the context of its remit. When we read about proposals in the media, it is not clear what is proposed or how some of them would be implemented. It is not for me to speak on behalf of the agency but it has its own remit, to which it needs to respond.

Does the Central Bank have a view on the principle of investing in such projects?

Mr. John Hurley

I mentioned in my presentation that we needed to invest to expand the productive base of the economy, particularly at this time. Investments on the current side that would, for example, enhance the skills base of the economy to increase productivity are important. In principle, we need to prioritise public expenditure on that basis but it is not for me to say how particular institutions ought to respond to particular proposals.

Does the Financial Regulator or the Central Bank have a role in court cases taken against banks?

Mr. John Hurley

The Central Bank has no role but the Financial Regulator would be aware of actions being taken and would clearly study them.

On my own behalf and that of members, I thank Mr. Hurley, Mr. Grimes and Mr. O'Connell for their attendance, as well as the detailed and comprehensive information and replies they have provided. I hope this information will be disseminated throughout the country. The growth of the IFSC was due to the confidence and trust world markets had in the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator. The good governance provided has been a draw for many banks which have set up in the State. The message from this meeting is that our banks are safe and sound and are well worth a punt. As Deputy Behan said, global economic conditions mean this is not an island in monetary terms but our banks are sound and solid, which is a positive message.

There is an increasing tendency where anybody questions anything or seeks information or tries to find a solution to a problem, to look on him or her as being negative. Far from being negative, I have made it clear that I am as anxious as anybody else to see the economy up and running but if one buries one's head in the sand and pretends there are no problems, one will solve nothing.

The Deputy is right. That is why this exercise is a positive one. We have had two and a half hours of discussion of questions that needed to be asked because they are being asked throughout the country.

Mr. John Hurley

I thank the Chairman and the committee for giving me and my colleagues the opportunity to speak about this very important issue. I hope our contributions have been of some value.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.35 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 July 2008.
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