Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jun 2012

Protected Disclosures in the Public Interest Bill 2012: Discussion (Resumed)

We resume in public session to deal with the draft heads of the general scheme of the Protected Disclosures in the Public Interest Bill 2012. I welcome Mr. Kenan Furlong, partner, A&L Goodbody Solicitors. I advise members that briefing documents have been circulated via e-mail in advance of today's presentation. The format will be that Mr. Furlong will make some opening remarks which will be followed with a question and answer session. I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off.

I advise the witness that by virtue of section 17(2) of the Defamation Act 2009, he is protected by absolute privilege in respect of his evidence to the committee. If he is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and he continues to do so, he is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his evidence. The witness is directed that only evidence that is connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, he should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Similarly, members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I welcome Mr. Furlong and ask him to begin.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I thank the committee for inviting me to contribute to this discussion on what is an important topic. Every speaker who presents before the committee brings his or her unique perspective. I thought I might begin by briefly outlining the perspective I bring. I am a partner in a large commercial law firm and my background is as a litigator, namely, fighting and defending court cases. In the past decade or so there has been a substantial increase in the criminalisation of corporate law and the consequence of that is that myself and a number of my colleagues and partners have specialised to some extent in areas such as assisting clients in complying with the regulatory requirements, advising on fraud investigations, assisting clients with their reporting requirements to various regulators, defending regulatory prosecutions and whistleblowing, which can encompass either advising clients on how to establish their whistleblowing policies or on the way to manage the information that comes from those whistleblowing policies.

My overall view on this legislation is that it is a good piece of legislation. It is modelled to a large extent on similar legislation in the United Kingdom dating back to 1988 but also on legislation in South Africa and in New Zealand dating back to 2000. I have spoken to a number of my colleagues in the UK and am advised that in general terms the legislation is regarded as having worked well in the UK.

No legislation is perfect, however, and having examined the Bill I believe there are two issues which merit further consideration by the committee. The first issue I raise relates to the grounds for making a protected disclosure under the regulatory channel, that is, head 6 of the Bill. My first submission to the committee is that the Bill should be altered to require workers to first utilise any internal whistleblowing procedures available before utilising the regulatory channel in head 6, unless there are reasonable grounds for them not doing so. I will briefly explore a number of aspects to that recommendation.

I am making a lot of notes. Will we be given a written copy of these notes or should we-----

A statement will not be given.

No. Does Mr. Furlong have a written statement?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I do not, but I understand a transcript of my presentation will be prepared.

The Deputy should follow the presentation as best he can. Mr. Furlong was saying there should be an internal complaint before one has recourse to head 6 unless there is a reasonable-----

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Unless there are reasonable grounds for the worker not doing so, and I will expand on that. There are similar criteria for a disclosure to qualify as a protected disclosure to an employer under head 5 and to a relevant body under head 6. The employer channel requires the disclosure be made in good faith and that the worker has a reasonable belief that the information disclosed shows or tends to show an impropriety which is captured by head 4.

The regulatory channel, as I call it, under head 6 also requires good faith but the difference is that it requires that the worker reasonably believes the disclosure is substantially true. In my experience in practice, the majority of the whistleblowing reports of which I am aware would pass both sets of criteria. That is important because it means that in most situations, based on my experience, the worker effectively will have a choice on whether to report under the internal channel or the external channel, that is, to the regulatory body. That is a similar approach to one the United Kingdom has taken but it is not the only approach to address these issues. Other countries and jurisdictions, including New Zealand, and Queensland and New South Wales in Australia, have taken a different approach whereby they require workers to exhaust internal procedures before they are allowed go to an external regulator. There is a sensible middle ground between these two positions.

A report to a regulator is a significant step and it is important to understand the consequences that can flow when this occurs. Let us suppose an external investigation is set up. Substantial resources may be put into that investigation by the regulator and the employer. There may be a substantial time commitment by the worker who makes the disclosure as well. In some instances, irrespective of the outcome of an investigation, negative publicity can flow for all parties concerned arising from the report. In the case of minor, vexatious or spurious reports, the employer is generally best placed to investigate quickly, efficiently and fairly because the employer is familiar with the personalities involved and the background and the employer can deal with these complaints efficiently. In this context we should consider two key points. First, the breadth of disclosures that attract protection under head 4 is particularly broad. It ranges from disclosures relating to a breach of the criminal law, a miscarriage of justice, a health and safety issue and damage to the environment. Second, there is no de minimis requirement for the level of information or the seriousness of information relating to any of these issues and there is no requirement to be reasonable.

I offer the following practical example. Let us suppose that a worker had a concern about several files lying around in a corridor of his workplace and that the worker held the view that this posed some sort of health and safety risk. Under the Bill as currently drafted, that worker would be entitled to go directly to the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, with the concern and make a protected disclosure, even if there were adequate policies to deal with the matter internally. Similarly, if a worker was concerned about the absence of recycling bins on a particular floor of his building, then he would be entitled to go directly to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, with the concern, even if there was a perfectly valid and appropriate internal whistleblowing policy to deal with these issues.

Whistleblowing is now generally regarded as part of good corporate governance. In my experience, most substantial businesses have voluntarily adopted whistleblowing policies and procedures. Where this is the case I believe the employer is the most appropriate first port of call for these reports and is best placed to manage the majority of these reports fairly and efficiently. Crucially, I do not propose that the worker should be compelled to disclose something internally in every case. This is the position adopted in the jurisdictions I referred to earlier. I maintain, however, that where there are procedures in place, the worker should be obliged to exhaust these procedures unless there are reasonable grounds for his not doing so. One may ask what constitutes reasonable grounds or what I consider to be reasonable grounds. Reasonable grounds could include a reasonable belief by a worker that such a report would be futile, or that the employer's policy or procedures are unfair, or that he would be penalised for making such a report, or that the evidence contained in his whistleblowing report would be concealed or destroyed after he made a report.

For the benefit of the committee I wish to highlight what I believe to be an error in the explanatory memorandum on head 5. I submit that this may have caused some confusion. The explanatory memorandum on head 5 states that a worker must have a reasonable belief that the allegation is true and make the disclosure in good faith in order for his or her disclosure to qualify as a protected disclosure. According to my reading of the legislation, in particular under head 5, there is no requirement for the worker to believe that a given allegation is true, only a requirement that the disclosure is made in good faith and an additional requirement, perhaps under head 4, that the disclosure shows or tends to show an impropriety identified under head 4 such as a breach of the criminal law. I suggest that, in practice, the worker may have no inkling as to the truthfulness of the allegation he or she hears but must reasonably believe that the allegation or information shows or tends to show an impropriety identified in head 4.

I offer another practical example. If a worker hears an allegation regarding illegal dumping he or she is entitled to make a protected disclosure of this allegation to his or her employer without making any assessment of its truthfulness on the basis that this information would show or tend to show damage to the environment. Naturally, if the worker sought to disclose this information to the EPA via the external channel under head 6, then he or she would have to make an assessment as to its veracity before doing so to be satisfied that it was substantially true. If the requirement under head 5 was indeed for a worker to believe in the truth of the information then, surely, this would have the unintended consequence that the criteria for protection under the employer channel would be more onerous than those under the regulatory channel.

My second submission relates to the issue of immunity, specifically criminal immunity. The criminal immunity to be granted by this legislation should be confined to immunity for liability arising from the making of a whistleblowing report and should not extend to liability arising from a person's participation in the disclosed impropriety. I will explore this point in more detail. As currently drafted, the Bill notes that the full extent of the criminal immunity is yet to be determined. An international debate is under way over the extent of immunity that should be awarded to whistleblowers. There is a significant divergence in our national and international laws regarding the scope of immunity that should be granted to whistleblowers. I offer several examples to illustrate the point. Under the Dodd-Frank legislation in the United States a whistleblower can be awarded 30% of any financial sanction imposed by the US Securities and Exchange Commission arising from a whistleblowing report. Certain stringent criteria are attached to such an award and it is discretionary, but in the past two years the SEC has imposed fines ranging from $150 million to $550 million. This gives a sense of the potentially significant bounty that is available for the right whistleblower in the right circumstances.

In Ireland, the norm is for the whistleblower to receive civil and criminal immunity from liability arising from the making of a disclosure but not for any other illegal activity underpinning the report. Even in Ireland, however, there is an exception to the rule. For example, under the Competition Authority cartel immunity programme a cartel member can obtain full immunity for breach of competition law if it is the first party to disclose the illegality to the Competition Authority, if it provides full co-operation to the authority and if it satisfies several other important criteria, about which I need not go into in detail now. Anyway, the committee can see the principle exists whereby someone can actually be given immunity for the underlying criminal activity as well as for the making of the report.

I emphasise that the reason for the exception for cartels is that cartels are regarded as very damaging and especially damaging to consumer interests. They are also, by their nature, secretive and remarkably difficult to detect. The same cannot be said for the broad base of impropriety which is currently captured by head 4 of the Bill. For example, a worker who misappropriates a company's funds or who commits a health and safety breach should not get immunity by whistleblowing on himself or herself and, perhaps, on others. Any immunity should be confined to that arising from the making of the whistleblowing report.

Drafting legislation involves the making of difficult choices. The Bill makes the correct choices on most issues. I hope my two submissions will assist the committee in making recommendations on two important aspects of the Bill which will have significant practical implications.

I thank my colleague, Ms Gillian McDonald, for her excellent work in assisting me in the preparation of this presentation on which I would welcome questions from the committee.

In making the second of his two points Mr. Furlong, rightly, says on the extent of criminal immunity proposed in the heads of the Bill that it is not absolutely clear what is intended. Head 15 of the Bill will:

Provide for immunity from criminal proceedings for a worker who communicates official information while recognising that a multiplicity of complex legal provisions exist for Members of An Garda Síochána, members of the Defence Forces, and other persons. The provision will have to ensure that a whistleblower report can be made while at the same time not facilitating reports which would be harmful to the public interest.

The full detail of the particular provision is to be worked out in consultation with other relevant Departments and subject to the legal advice of the Attorney General in the context of the drafting of the Bill.

The explanatory note on head 15 states:

Further consideration can be given in the detailed drafting of the Bill to whatever amendments to the Official Secrets Act and other legislation may be required to ensure that highly sensitive and secret official information is safeguarded in a manner which facilitates the effective operation of the protected disclosure regime.

Mr. Furlong says the criminal immunity afforded by the legislation should be confined to the exposure of an individual in the making of the report, rather than to any underlying ancillary or related involvement the person might have had in criminal activity. He is talking about a confined level of protection for such an individual. Do I understand him correctly?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

That is correct. That standard would be common in similar jurisdictions to our own. There is an exception, even in Ireland. The standard I am advocating is common elsewhere. I am trying to ensure someone does not abuse a whistleblowing process to gain immunity.

From what Mr. Furlong has seen in the heads of the Bill, is there any reason to believe it is intended to provide for that broader level of immunity?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

There is not.

Is Mr. Furlong just flagging it as a view?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I am. Unlike the other sections, head 15 states this issue remains to be finalised. In that context, I considered it might be helpful to offer this view.

With regard to Mr. Furlong's first point on head 6, most people believe it is desirable that an individual should have protection in going to a regulator. He certainly does not disagree with this. A person should not be required, in all circumstances, to first go to the employer. We can think of any number of reasons why that should be so. Where there is a small number of employees in a firm, a person's place in the pecking order - whether he is management, senior management or recently employed - might be significant and he or she might be concerned for other reasons about the stability of his or her employment. There is a host of reasons an individual should be protected in making a disclosure to someone other than his or her employer. Does Mr. Furlong want to reduce this protection in order that an individual would first have to go to his or her employer, unless he or she could reasonably show a reason to do otherwise? He offers rigorous tests for such exceptions. The examples he gives are onerous. He says a person would have to believe it would be futile to go to the employer, that the procedure the employer is employing is unfair, that the person is likely to be penalised or that the documentation concerned would be concealed in some way. These examples set a high threshold for an individual. Is Mr. Furlong not being over-restrictive in the case of employees in these circumstances? I am not sure I agree it should be that confined.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

There is middle ground between the choice open to the worker to go either internally or externally. A worker should satisfy some criteria before he or she reports externally. I give these merely as examples and I am open to their being extended. I accept that there are circumstances where a worker should be able to go to a regulator. I am trying to address a concern I have seen in practice. Not every whistleblower is genuine and not every whistleblowing report is well founded. I have seen situations where whistleblowing reports that were not well founded caused significant disruption to businesses. I was trying to find middle ground between the New Zealand and New South Wales approach, whereby internal procedures must be exhausted, and the one suggested, whereby there is a choice in most situations to go directly to an outside body. I am concerned that the resources of the relevant body might be stretched in dealing with minor or spurious complaints which could best be filtered by an employer. I take the Chairman's point that the criteria I have outlined could be broadened, but my core point is that finding a middle ground between the current position and that adopted in countries such as New Zealand would be appropriate.

Mr. Furlong has compared head 5 and head 6. The explanatory note on head 5 seems to be inaccurate. It talks about a reasonable belief that an allegation is true. However, there is no such requirement in head 5. Head 6 states:

A disclosure made in good faith by a worker, which the worker reasonably believes is substantially true, to a relevant body where the impropriety falls within any description of matters prescribed by the Minister in respect of that body is a protected disclosure for the purposes of this Act .

That is quite a test. An individual can still go to the regulatory body. The legislation will merely make the disclosure a protected disclosure. There is nothing to stop someone from going to the Environmental Protection Agency, for example, if he or she wishes. In order to avail of this protection a whistleblower must believe what he or she is saying is substantially true. However, there is no such requirement where a person merely goes to his or her employer. A higher level of proof is required in head 6.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

The Chairman is absolutely correct, there is a higher level of proof. The best way to illustrate the difference between the two is as follows. Under head 5, the employer channel, if a worker receives information, perhaps from a colleague, that another employee has misappropriated funds, that worker can, without making an assessment of the veracity of the allegation, simply pass the information to the employer, as a protected disclosure, and avail of the protection of the legislation. He or she can simply pass on the details of the allegation. If he or she wants to report externally, to the Central Bank, for example, in order to avail of the protection under head 6, he or she must make some qualitative assessment of the truthfulness or veracity of the information to satisfy the criterion that he or she must believe it is substantially true.

Reporting under head 6 makes a bigger demand of an employee. An employee who is thinking of making a disclosure externally, as opposed to his or her employer, must think twice because he or she must believe the information is substantially true, a belief he or she need not have if he or she goes to the employer.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

That is correct; it is a tiered approach. In my experience, most whistleblower reports and whistleblowers I have come across would satisfy the latter criterion that they reasonably believe it is substantially true. In practice, although there is a tiered approach, most reports would clear both hurdles fairly easily and, therefore, the worker will have a choice as regards whether to report internally or externally. I would have a slight concern if a trend emerged whereby, notwithstanding adequate procedures being in place, employees were going directly to regulators with spurious complaints or complaints that were not well founded.

That is why Mr. Furlong says there should be a middle ground. The contrary concern we have is that employees could feel that the first question they will be asked if they go to the regulator is whether they have gone through all the hoops with their employer and that could have a chilling effect. The legislation is trying to change the environment in order that people will be more comfortable making complaints or reports and whistleblowing. Some kind of middle ground is needed.

The committee has 27 members and I apologise on behalf of my Fianna Fáil colleagues for their absence. Deputy Fleming, our spokesperson, is in the Dáil currently and Deputies Dooley and Michael McGrath are on Dáil business and send their apologies.

I welcome Mr. Furlong. We were contemporaries in the legal profession. I left corporate law to be a public representative but I still take an interest. His insights are relevant. The next witness may well have a view on the internal issues because what Mr. Furlong is proposing in the context of his own client base may well be appropriate for large companies and they may want that because there may be activities going on at different levels of their company, which those in charge do not want going on. Could a threshold be provided for in his proposal regarding the size of the company his amendment would cover? If I am in a small company and something wrong has been done, I cannot go to my employer because the chances are he is directly involved in it. I do not know whether Mr. Furlong proposes such a threshold but if I work in a large multinational and illegality is taking place to increase sales in some part of the company, the company may want to deal with that as quickly as possible. However, if criminality is taking place, it is not appropriate for anyone to keep it quiet or to deal with such a matter internally. Has Mr. Furlong standard copies of a private company whistleblowing policy that he could make available to the committee to demonstrate the types of policy in place in companies? It might be useful to read examples if Mr. Furlong could provide us with a redacted one or whatever?

With regard to the Competition Authority's immunity programme, am I correct that it does not apply to so-called hard-core cartels? If someone is fixing prices, he or she cannot go to the authority and claim immunity and, therefore, immunity is only provided for lesser offences.

Mr. Furlong's point about self-whistleblowing is valid and it should be noted by the committee. That may not be what is intended but he is correct that it is not specified. It is important to flag that immunity should not apply to underlying offences of which someone may be guilty.

On the "substantially true" issue, if I reasonably believe something to be substantially true, is it also the case that I reasonably believe something to be partially false? Should the wording state, "reasonably believe something be true"? Does Mr. Furlong agree that would be a more appropriate wording? Is the word "substantially" necessary? Does it imply that somebody knows something is wrong when making a whistleblowing report?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I thank the Senator. I will deal with the points he made in order. His first point related to how one deals with the small company scenario. The amendment I propose would not impact on a smaller company that does not have a whistleblowing policy in place. It would apply where a company has gone to the trouble and expense of voluntarily adopting whistleblowing procedures, employing people to deal with them and investing in that process. My proposed amendment would not affect a small company that does not necessarily have a policy or cannot afford to implement one.

Is Mr. Furlong proposing there should be an obligation on certain companies to have a whistleblowing policy in place? Who would police the standard of the policy?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

No, my proposal is that where there is a policy in place, the employees would, unless they reasonable grounds for not doing so, have to exhaust the internal procedures before reporting externally. I do not say they cannot report externally but if there is a policy there, they should use it unless there is a good reason for not using it.

Is Mr. Furlong proposing an obligation on a company to have such a policy?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

It is a good idea from a corporate governance perspective for any substantial employer to have a whistleblowing policy in place. Making that a mandatory requirement for all businesses is a different-----

What about businesses of a certain size?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Perhaps that could be worth considering for businesses of a certain size but there are practical issues as regards small businesses having whistleblowing policies.

The second issue was the circulation of a draft anonymised policy. I would be happy to arrange that.

Could Mr. Furlong send it to the clerk to the committee?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I will.

I refer to the Senator's point regarding how the phrase "substantially true" sits. I read with interest the Chairman's previous comments when another witness appeared before the committee. The phrase is sensible under that heading. In simple terms, I understand that to mean someone believes the substance of the allegation is true but does not necessarily know all the constituent aspects of it are true. If one is to impose an absolute requirement that one knows 100% true-----

What about "reasonably believe"?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Even if one reasonably believes it is 100% true, it brings us back to the chilling effect issue mentioned by the Chairman. It is sensible to have a slightly softened version of truth in order that people are not dissuaded from whistleblowing because they are not absolutely sure every single aspect is 100% true.

I could take the committee through the cartel criteria, which are detailed and stringent. The Senator is correct that specific criteria deal with who can and cannot apply and this is directed not so much at the instigator of the cartel but more at someone who joined late-----

In other words, not everybody involved in the cartel can go to the Competition Authority and say they want immunity.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

One could apply but that does not mean one will get it. The criteria differentiates between those who have instigated or who are the main movers behind the cartel and-----

It is similar to bank immunity.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

No, it is important to emphasise I brought that up by way of example but the authority has a detailed set of criteria. I could go through them but it would probably take the rest of this session. The Senator is correct that it is not just something one gets for the asking. It is aimed at people who were not necessarily the main players in the cartel but if someone satisfies all the criteria, which include being the first person to whistleblow and offering full co-operation with the authority, then he or she can get immunity regarding his or her anti-competitive behaviour as part of a cartel.

Is it correct they may receive lenient penalties in other cases? The European Commission has a leniency programme under which lower fines are levied. What I am trying to get at is that Mr. Furlong does not favour immunity for the underlying offences.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Yes.

When he mentioned the Competition Authority, I wanted to ensure there was not blanket immunity for cartels if members of the cartel inform the authority about it.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

That is correct. The purpose of mentioning the cartel example and the US example was to illustrate that different jurisdictions treat immunity differently. Ultimately, I would have a slight concern about immunity that is broader than liability for making the disclosure. If, for example, someone was sued for a breach of confidentiality or prosecuted for an offence under the data protection legislation, he or she would have immunity. Such a person can make the report comfortable in the knowledge that he or she will not be prosecuted for a data protection breach or sued for breach of confidentiality. At the same time, however, persons who have been up to their necks in criminality will not be able to abuse the process by, say, whistleblowing on themselves and one or two others to secure immunity from that underlying illegality.

I apologise for having to leave the meeting for a short period. I got the thrust of what Mr. Furlong said on the second issue and, if I understand him correctly, I am in agreement with the point he made. To clarify, is he saying there should be no immunity for whistleblowers where they are essentially engaged in an abuse of the protections provided to secure immunity for themselves in respect of certain criminal behaviour, malpractice or whatever?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

There is a slight difference between what I said and what the Deputy is saying. To clarify, I am not arguing that such persons would have no immunity. Rather, their only immunity would be that they could not be, for example, prosecuted for a breach of data protection in making a disclosure, but in so doing they would not attain immunity in respect of the underlying illegality.

I agree wholeheartedly with that.

I have a difficulty with the first point Mr. Furlong made. The thrust of the legislation surely must be to remove any disincentive or discouragement for people to blow the whistle on malpractice, negligence or criminal behaviour in a corporate or State body. This is the problem that must be addressed. The type of middle way Mr. Furlong seems to be proposing implies there is a real danger or threat of a significant number of vexatious or trivial reports and disclosures. I disagree with that emphasis or starting point for examining this issue. The root of the problem is that people have been afraid to make disclosures because of the consequences that might flow from that. Our focus, therefore, must be to give confidence to people, in both the public and corporate sectors, that in reporting activity which they believe to be wrong, criminal or negligent, they will have the full protection of the law.

The benchmark set out in the legislation that a potential whistleblower must believe a report of wrongdoing is substantially true if he or she proposes it to bring to the regulatory body is too onerous. Far from diluting the incentive to report or encouraging people to approach their employers in the first instance, we should instead be encouraging anybody who has any concern, even if he or she is not certain that it is substantially true, to report that concern to the regulator. Given that people are often very reluctant to approach their employers on such matters, there should be no discouragement in terms of bringing the matter to the regulatory body. In the case of the banking sector in recent years, for instance, an employee might well have looked at what was going on in terms of lending policy to developers and suspected, without being certain, that there was a problem. Such concerns might not have passed the "substantially true" test but would nevertheless have been reasonable and valid. People should have the right, even where they are uncertain of the validity of a concern, to raise that concern with an external regulatory body, particularly where they are doubtful of receiving a reasonable or balanced hearing from their employers. The requirement that one must believe one's suspicion to be substantially true before presenting it may function as a disincentive to such reporting. Where one has significant concerns that unacceptable, problematic or criminal activity is taking place, should one not feel completely confident in one's right to raise it with an external regulatory body?

For the Deputy's information, the Bill is built around the notion of there being different levels of protection depending on where one brings a disclosure. We can certainly review the matter in our report, but it is already very much at the heart of the Bill that there is this graduated type of protection.

My point is that we must be very careful in this regard, not just in terms of what Mr. Furlong has said but in terms of the Bill as a whole. Anything that might act as a disincentive or discouragement for people to raise concerns, such as the requirement that they be confident their concern is substantially true, should be avoided.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

As I mentioned in my conclusion, there are difficult choices involved in this legislation, with this issue of the extent to which a person should be convinced of the truth of what he or she is saying being one of the more difficult. All I can say is that my own suggested alteration marries the competing interests in terms of ensuring, on the one hand, that workers have appropriate protection and are not dissuaded from making valid reports and, on the other, that regulators' and employers' resources are not diverted into issues that could be more easily dealt with, neatly and efficiently, by employers who have gone to the trouble of setting up voluntary whistleblowing codes, invested resources therein and employed people to run them. I accept, however, that it is a difficult balance to achieve and there is a myriad of factors to consider.

I welcome Mr. Furlong and thank him for his time and expertise. On the second issue, that is, the level of protection, there is obviously a balance to be struck between incentivising people to whistleblow and ensuring there is no attempt to game the system and escape immunity. It seems reasonable to conclude that the more protection one gives to people who are colluding in or perpetrating some type of criminal activity, the more likely they are to report it. In deciding that balance, Mr. Furlong has set out the different approaches in various jurisdictions. Is he aware of any research or data setting out the level of reporting in correlation with the level of immunity provided?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Unfortunately, I am not aware of the existence of any such hard data.

Given that there is immunity in terms of reporting but no immunity where one is involved in the criminal activity oneself, is there any incentive, within the legislation, for such persons to whistleblow?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

That is a fair point. The legislation aims to protect people whistleblowing on others but not necessarily those who wish to whistleblow on themselves and others to gain protection for themselves. There is not much to be gained for the person who is knee deep in illegality in making a whistleblower report under the provisions as drafted unless, say, it is something he or she does by virtue of his or her conscience. The immunity such persons would receive under the Bill is limited. Unless there is an attack of conscience, there is little-----

They might make a disclosure as an act of public spiritedness.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Yes. It is a valid point which is similar to the considerations attaching to the issue of good faith. The Bill, as it stands, is set up to protect disclosures that are made in good faith, which is a common denominator across all five channels. There is one view that the motivation of the whistleblower is not relevant. In other words, providing the information given is probative and in the public interest, it matters not whether the person concerned acted from worthy motives. The counter argument, however, which I tend to prefer, is that having a good faith requirement included is a useful filter from the spurious reports I mentioned but it also encourages the right kind of whistleblowing and it dissuades people from using whistleblowing policies and procedures as a means of exercising a personal vendetta. The Deputy highlighted one of the many choices. Anonymity is another which has been made in drafting the Bill in this way, but in terms of immunity, my strong view is that it should be limited.

I have a related question for Mr. Furlong, which is not exactly on one of the two issues but I would like his thoughts on it. A concern I have relates to a case with which I am dealing. A public sector employee saw something they believed to be unethical and dangerous and reported it. The organisation and boss immediately moved against that person in a different way and essentially concocted something which was deeply spurious and which went to the High Court. The organisation was heavily admonished by the judge for an abuse. Basically, it concocted a situation where the employee ended up having to retain senior counsel for protection through the High Court. In the end, the judge awarded costs against the public sector institution but the person involved, as one can imagine, went through an extraordinarily difficult, traumatic and psychologically damaging time and for a very long time was left facing the prospect of having to cover in excess of €100,000 in costs, of losing their house and of all the associated stress which goes with that.

Is there anything in this Bill that would give the whistleblower protection such that if a person's employer - in this case the State - uses its resources to bully that person in an insidious manner, he or she can bring that into the process and say that as a result of the whistleblowing, the employer is trying to get him or her in this other way?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

Yes. There are provisions in the Bill dealing with penalisation of employees for making whistleblowing reports which would cater for precisely the kind of scenario the Deputy outlined. The Bill provides that the whistleblower should not be penalised for making a genuine whistleblowing report and there are provisions for tortious action, etc. against the employer who does that. There is, therefore, some protection.

Does Mr. Furlong believe it is sufficient?

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I do.

I thank Mr. Furlong. We really appreciate him coming in and taking questions. He has given us very interesting insights into those two discrete areas which we will certainly consider in the preparation of our report for the Minister.

Mr. Kenan Furlong

I thank the Chairman.

Sitting suspended at 3.03 p.m. and resumed at 3.04 p.m.

We are dealing with the draft heads of the general scheme of the Protected Disclosures in the Public Interest Bill 2012. I would like to welcome Mr. Eugene McErlean, former AIB internal auditor. I remind members that briefing documents have been circulated by e-mail in advance of today's presentation. The format of the meeting will be that Mr. McErlean will make opening remarks - he has very kindly furnished us with a summary paper - which will be followed by a question and answer session.

I remind the witness that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Eugene McErlean

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to address the committee on the subject of the Protected Disclosures in the Public Interest Bill 2012. I would like to commence by saying that I welcome the publication of the draft heads of the Bill and believe it marks a very significant step forward in the improvement of the corporate governance and anti-corruption framework in Ireland.

We in Ireland have experienced a number of serious corporate governance failures in recent years which have, unfortunately, culminated in a series of avoidable consequences for the country. What is remarkable is that despite the very obvious negative economic and social consequences and the overall detriment to the public interest, practically no one with knowledge of the serious malpractices felt it was safe to act in the public interest and come forward with information. It is likely that had such information been available, not only would some of the more egregious abuses been avoided but, in addition, quite a different set of measures could have been adopted to deal with the banking crisis.

According to empirical research, potential whistleblowers tend to remain silent for two main reasons - they feel their warnings will not be followed up appropriately and they fear reprisals. For society or individual organisations to benefit fully from the early warning potential of whistleblowers both issues need to be addressed by ensuring that warnings are acted upon properly and by providing credible protection for whistleblowers.

To encourage individuals to come forward, legislation must first and foremost provide a safe alternative to silence and not offer potential whistleblowers a cardboard shield that would entrap them by giving them a false sense of security. In this context, the draft Bill may provide potential whistleblowers with a false sense of security by failing to provide adequate protection to ensure confidentiality. It is self-evident that if assurance can be provided that the identity of the individual will remain confidential, the risk of reprisal or other negative consequence is substantially reduced. This assurance will go a long way in persuading an individual that it is safe to come forward. However, head 16 of the draft Bill requires that every person to whom a protected disclosure is made should merely use his or her best endeavours to keep the identity of the whistleblower confidential. This is a very low threshold that is not reflected in the equivalent United States statute, for example, which by contrast states that the identity of an individual who makes a disclosure may not be disclosed. In addition, in other legislative provisions where confidentiality is perceived as important, for example, in regard to the Central Bank's confidentiality obligations, there is no such ambiguity or uncertainty. Consequently, from a practical point of view, as long as the draft legislation contains an element of uncertainty about the confidentiality of the process, there may not be any marked improvement in the willingness of individuals to come forward with important information.

I would like to refer to resolution 1729 of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe which sets out an excellent framework for the adoption of whistleblower legislation in member states. The resolution suggests that the implementation and impact of relevant legislation on the effective protection of whistleblowers should be monitored and evaluated at regular intervals by independent bodies. In addition, the resolution stresses that legislative improvements must be accompanied by a positive evolution of the cultural attitude towards whistleblowing which must be freed from its previous association with disloyalty or betrayal. It recognises the important role of non-governmental organisations in contributing to the positive evolution of the general attitude towards whistleblowing and in providing counselling to employers wishing to set up internal whistleblowing procedures, to potential whistleblowers and to victims of retaliation.

I thank Mr. McErlean. I have two issues on which he might reflect, the first of which is on his interesting point on the protection of confidentiality and his feeling that the provisions in the Bill are not sufficiently strong owing to the use of the principal of "best endeavours" as opposed to an absolute requirement, which he would advocate. Playing devil's advocate, I contend it may be difficult to require realistically an absolute protection of confidentiality in the sense that the very use or pursuit of the information in question may lead in some circumstances but, I would hope, not very many, to the exposure of the identity of the person who gives the information originally. There might be circumstances in which one could not do anything with the information without some risk, however marginal, of revealing the person's identity. Is that why the "best endeavours" approach has been included rather than an absolute requirement? If there were an absolute requirement, it could be that the information would not be pursued in some cases because of concern over the very worrying effect of exposing the individual's identity.

Second, I do not know whether Mr. McErlean had an opportunity to hear our earlier discussion. We had a very interesting debate on the protection an individual has going to a regulator or relevant body. I refer to the skipping of the employer stage and going directly to the regulator. It has been suggested to the committee that there ought to be a requirement, not necessarily an absolute one but perhaps a nuanced one with conditions of reasonableness, that an individual should go to the employer in the first instance unless he or she has a good reason for not doing so. What is Mr. McErlean's view on that?

Mr. Eugene McErlean

On the question of confidentiality and the absolute requirement, the legislation, as drafted, proposes exceptions and sets out three criteria. One of the problems could be dealt with. I refer to where the making known of the whistleblower's identity is unavoidable merely by pursuing the investigation. It is better starting off with an absolute requirement. For instance, one would not feel comfortable conveying one's medical details to a doctor who merely had an obligation to hold those medical records in line with the level of confidentiality to which the Deputy referred. One would require an absolute guarantee of confidentiality, as one would with one's banking details. In all other areas where confidentiality is important, there is an absolute standard, although there are exceptions where appropriate. That is a far better model. If one left the system as it is, one would still inhibit people from coming forward because of the element of doubt. Even where there are absolute obligations regarding confidentiality, the system is very widely abused. It is very difficult to do anything about it once the identity has become known.

That is very interesting.

Mr. Eugene McErlean

On the second point, I do not have a fixed view on whether one should go to the employer before the regulatory body. Clarity is the most important factor I have noted when talking to potential whistleblowers. Uncertainty as to what they should do is the most difficult challenge. Once it is clear what they should do, they know where they stand and can make a decision in that knowledge.

Mr. McErlean would not object to there being a requirement to go to the employer before the regulator, unless there are reasonable grounds why one should not do so. According to this model, the requirement would exist with exceptions as opposed to having no requirement.

Mr. Eugene McErlean

The problem concerns how one constructs those requirements. That may create some ambiguity in respect of whether one is entitled to go to the regulator. That is my difficulty. The requirements should be constructed such that it is clear to the whistleblower what he or she can and cannot do.

I thank Mr. McErlean. He makes a very persuasive point on confidentiality. The comparison with medical confidentiality is very relevant. As a former solicitor, I note there was nothing more important in the office than absolute confidentiality. If a will had been accidentally put into a bin and somebody read it, there would have been no excuse. One would not have been allowed to say it was not one's fault. Breaches of confidentiality were awful to contemplate. We need to ensure that it is so awful to contemplate that confidentiality is protected in the circumstances in question. Mr. McErlean made a very valid point in that regard.

If the legislation were enacted and Mr. McErlean's concerns were addressed regarding this issue, would there be many whistleblowers? Are there many people waiting for this law to be passed who would not offer information were it not passed?

Mr. Eugene McErlean

That is what I was alluding to. It is remarkable that many more people have not come forward, particularly in the banking and financial sectors where the abuses were so far removed from the practices that should have been honoured that nobody felt comfortable in coming forward. Quite a pool of people would have had knowledge of the abuses. There is quite a pool of potential whistleblowers who should have felt comfortable in coming forward but who did not. That is still the case, and there are still quite a few who make tentative inquiries to helplines and who even go outside the jurisdiction to ask for advice. The legislation should have a significant impact on quite a number of potential whistleblowers.

I am interested in Mr. McErlean's views on covert pressure on employees, particularly in professional firms. He stated he was surprised that there were not more people coming forward in respect of the banking crisis. He refers to those who are connected to the banking sector, but allied to the banking sector are the professional firms that advise it. I hazard a guess that there was covert pressure on many people in those firms, including solicitors' and accounting firms, to go with the flow, the consensus and the groupthink which is not defined. It is very difficult to define a set of circumstances that involves malpractice or a disclosure. Nowadays, with the formalities of annual appraisals, people are very afraid they could say or discuss something that could look like a grey area in their annual appraisal or a spot on their X-ray. This is not quite captured by the legislation. It needs to be captured in what I once called a "textbook for honest behaviour" for all employers, particularly those in the service industry. I am interested in hearing Mr. McErlean's views on this.

Mr. Eugene McErlean

The Deputy is absolutely correct that there is some covert pressure – "repression" is too strong a word – or an implicit, insidious culture such that it would not be in an individual's interest to say or do something.

To revert to the earlier discussion on those who may not know something to be substantially true but who have a concern that there is a malpractice or something incorrect, it is interesting that, in the United Kingdom, there is an NGO, Public Concern at Work, that encourages people to raise their concerns. This should be the objective of the legislation. Confidentiality would remove the implied sense of betrayal to the effect that, if one made a disclosure, one would be informing on one's organisation. I view this as a corrective mechanism. In the banking sector, there has been a marked failure and the mechanism would serve to correct it through disclosures of concern. This would be in contrast with a model with a highest-threshold standard requiring one to believe one's disclosure to be substantially true. The latter is quite difficult to overcome.

I thank Mr. McErlean for his written submission and also for his contribution and for answering questions. As colleagues will agree, Mr. McErlean has been a standard bearer for ethical conduct in corporate and public life. Certainly, that is well recognised by the members of the committee.

Personally and professionally, I thank Mr. McErlean for his courage and tenacity in bringing forward what must have been difficult and sensitive true information, and against the grain, when it was a lonely place to be.

I thank Mr. McErlean for attending. I reiterate the point that his submission and the transcript of this afternoon's deliberations will be considered by the committee in the preparation of our report and will be made available to the Minister. It is extremely helpful to us. I thank him once again for that.

The joint committee adjourned at 15.30 p.m. sine die.
Top
Share