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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 2023

Preventing Bid Rigging in the Public Procurement Process: Discussion

In today's meeting, we will deal with the topic of bid-rigging in the public sector procurement process. We are joined by Mr. Brian McHugh, Ms Úna Butler, Mr. Eksteen Maritz, Ms Anne Stewart, Mr. Declan McCormack and Mr. David O'Brien. They are all very welcome and I thank them for joining us.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the position as regards privilege. Witnesses who are present on the Leinster House campus are entitled to full privilege, whereas those joining us online from outside Leinster House may be only entitled to partial privilege. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will hear opening statements from Mr. McHugh and Ms Stewart. Ladies first.

Ms Anne Stewart

I am the assistant secretary in the Office of Government Procurement, which is a division of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I have responsibility for public procurement policy, service delivery and digitalisation. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Declan McCormack, principal officer, and Mr. David O'Brien, principal officer.

I thank the Chair and members for the invitation to assist the committee in its consideration of the issue of bid-rigging in the public sector procurement process. To do this, I think it helpful to set out the role and remit of the Office of Government Procurement. The OGP was established in 2013 as a new division of the then Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to develop procurement policy and establish a central procurement body. It also took over administration of eTenders, the national electronic public procurement platform, to become a one-stop shop providing a complete audit trail and transparency of electronic tendering activity. In May this year, a new eTenders platform was implemented and the roll-out of new e-forms went live on the platform in October this year. While OGP manages the functioning and administration of the platform, the data contained in the platform is owned by each public body as the individual contracting authority.

With regard to policy function and EU law, in Ireland public procurement is governed by legislation at a European and national level. The EU Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union promotes the fundamental principles of non-discrimination, free movement of goods and services and freedom of establishment. These principles are reinforced in the four EU directives on public procurement. These are the directive on public procurement - goods, services and works - often known as the classic directive; the utilities directive on procurement by entities operating in the water, energy, transport and postal service sectors; the directive on the award of concession contracts; and, lastly, the defence and security directive.

The directives were transposed into Irish law as statutory instruments. These rules govern the way public bodies and utility operators purchase goods, works and services for contracts valued over a determined threshold. For tenders of lower value, the national rules apply but they must also respect the general rules of EU law.

Over recent years, the OGP has taken into account EU priorities on public procurement, which include the wider uptake of innovation, green and social procurement, increasing access to procurement markets, improving transparency, integrity and data, and boosting the digital transformation of procurement.

In addition to the directives, a list of the OGP's most important policy supports are: our circulars, of which we have a number; the capital works management framework for public works; our general procurement guidelines for goods and services; and technical guidelines, template, and documents and information notes. All of these together emphasise that public procurement must be conducted in a fair and transparent manner that affords equal opportunities for competing suppliers.

The OGP is a central body. We are one of five central purchasing bodies that collectively ensure one voice to the market by sourcing common goods and services on behalf of the public sector. The other four central purchasing bodies are education, defence, health and local government. In its function as a central procurement body, the OGP establishes framework agreements and dynamic purchasing systems, and conducts bespoke competitions. A key part of the function is the professional procurement expertise, consultancy and training that we provide to support all public sector bodies.

The OGP properly relies on all statutory bodies in the State charged with regulation of laws to examine possible impact or effect on market irregularities where they consider investigation it is warranted. Those areas are not confined to compliance of activity under the remit of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, but also cover compliance by economic operators across the board in areas such as taxation, environmental regulation, labour law, social regulation and technical regulation.

The OGP has always had and continues to have an open and collaborative relationship with the CCPC. Tender documents insist on legal requirements with exclusion grounds, as per Article 57 of the EU directive. The OGP guidelines include information on bid-rigging or collusive tendering and advise contracting authorities to inform the CCPC if they suspect this behaviour when running a tender. The CCPC also sits on the SME advisory group, which is chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform with special responsibility for public procurement and eGovernment, and is supported by the OGP.

The OGP is very conscious that the identification of market irregularity is a difficult issue to reveal, let alone quantify. It welcomes initiatives from the CCPC to investigate market irregularities. It is working with the CCPC and will carefully consider any report emerging from such investigations as they relate to the public procurement market.

Mr. Brian McHugh

My colleagues and I welcome the opportunity to brief the committee on the practice of bid-rigging. I am the chair of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC. I am joined today by Ms Úna Butler, commission member with responsibility for our cartel division, and Mr. Eksteen Maritz, director of our cartel division.

The CCPC is responsible for enforcing and promoting compliance with competition, consumer protection and product safety law. Our vision is for open and competitive markets where consumers are protected and businesses actively compete. Effective competition directly benefits consumers because firms try to win consumers’ business through lower prices and-or improved quality of goods and services. As the statutory body responsible for enforcing Irish and EU competition law, the CCPC protects this competitive process and ensures that markets work to the benefit of consumers. Competitive markets drive improvement, innovation and productivity in our economy to the benefit of everyone.

Competition law forbids two broad types of behaviour. The first is anti-competitive agreements between two or more independent firms such as agreements between competitors to fix prices, share markets or restrict output. These are commonly referred to as cartel agreements. The second is abusive practices by firms which hold dominant market positions. Such practices could include predatory pricing or refusal to supply. Bid-rigging, the topic we are discussing, is a serious form of cartel behaviour. It happens when a number of suppliers try to influence the outcome of a tender process through agreeing not to bid against one another or otherwise co-ordinate their bids.

In these cases, the winning tender price may be higher than the price that would be reached through competitive tendering.

Bid-rigging results in the State and businesses paying more. It is, by definition, difficult to estimate the incidence of bid-rigging cartels as large efforts are made to keep the conspiracies hidden but research and empirical studies have shown that internationally, the average overcharge in detected cartels is in the order of 20% to 30% and that discovered cartels generally last, on average, four to seven years. In Ireland, we understand that public bodies spend an estimated €20 billion annually on goods, services, works and capital projects. This means that the potential impact of bid-rigging in public procurement, if even only a small percentage of procurement processes were subject to bid-rigging, could result in extra costs for Irish taxpayers of tens or even hundreds of millions every year.

We have seen internationally that bid-rigging cartels can be very large. For example, the ongoing Austrian construction cartel investigation involves several dozen companies under investigation by the Austrian competition authority, multiple fines imposed by the Austrian cartel court and multiple further cases pending. The contracts affected were worth up to €61 billion. We have no reason to believe the potential for cartel behaviour is significantly less in Ireland compared with the position internationally.

Where the CCPC has evidence of anti-competitive conduct, it conducts investigations and takes appropriate enforcement action. Cartels are heavily sanctioned under the Competition Act, including custodial sanctions of up to ten years in prison. The biggest challenge in cartel enforcement is detection. Cartel behaviour by its nature is very difficult to detect. Cartels are secretive and hidden. The offending behaviour is very deliberately concealed. Competition agencies, including the CCPC, therefore use a range of detection tools to uncover cartels. The CCPC operates a cartel immunity programme in conjunction with the Director of Public Prosecutions. Under this programme, the DPP can grant full immunity from criminal prosecution to the first in, that is, the first member of a cartel who comes forward to the CCPC, admits their participation in the cartel and co-operates with the CCPC investigation. As of 27 September 2023, the CCPC also operates an administrative leniency policy and can give full immunity from administrative fines to the first cartel member to come forward and reduced fines to second and subsequent applicants. It mirrors a successful programme operated by the European Commission. The purpose of these programmes is to allow the CCPC to detect cartels and gather important evidence to help the CCPC build its case.

We also have a confidential anonymous whistleblower platform known as WhistleB. This allows members of the public to share information and evidence about illegal cartel behaviour with the CCPC via an anonymous mailbox accessible on our website. It allows encrypted two-way communication between the whistleblower and the CCPC while retaining the whistleblower’s anonymity.

We are always looking to improve our ability to detect cartels and while we work closely with procurement agencies such as the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, it would not be appropriate to expect them to identify sophisticated bid-rigging activity along with their other roles. Internationally, an additional important tool for detection is the screening of public procurement data. Screening involves competition agencies proactively analysing tender data to identify elements or patterns that may indicate bid-rigging and can lead to formal investigations. A system of screening for bid-rigging has been applied in many countries, including Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal and Switzerland. It has produced some success in identifying cartels and, crucially, encouraged firms to seek leniency before they were detected.

As well as detection, just knowing the national competition authority is screening bids provides a strong deterrent effect. In Ireland, a report published by the Hamilton review group in December 2020 made a number of recommendations specifically in relation to bid-rigging, including that legislation be introduced to enable the collection, collation and analysis of all public procurement data to detect and deter bid-rigging. The CCPC agrees that legislative change is needed to provide a robust regime to screen for bid-rigging. We have had positive engagement with our parent department, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, on developing such legislation and we would hope there is strong support, including from this committee, for this legislation. In addition, we will continue to work closely with the OGP to ensure structures are in place to allow efficient access to relevant data under the new legal arrangements.

Enabling access to public procurement data would be the first step in implementing the Hamilton review’s recommendation. This will allow the CCPC to develop and apply its screening tools across the range of public procurement markets. The CCPC has already been engaged with colleagues from international competition agencies on data management, formatting and developing analytical tools and techniques to detect potential bid-rigging patterns. This is a priority project for the CCPC and with our forensic technology resources and skills, we are confident we will be ready to begin screening as soon as the data is available.

To summarise, one of our key objectives is to detect cartels, bring the behaviour to an end and take appropriate enforcement action against those involved. The CCPC has put tools in place to allow it to detect and pursue cartels but more can be done. Bid-rigging is an extremely harmful form of cartel activity. It causes serious harm to the public purse and the economy more broadly. Access to public procurement data would allow the CCPC to further identify and pursue this harmful conduct where it has occurred and would act as a deterrent to those considering undertaking such harmful behaviour.

My colleagues and I look forward to answering any questions the committee may have.

I thank all our guests for coming before the committee. I will start by asking Mr. McHugh some questions. He stated that he would like to see legislation enacted to enable the screening of bids to happen. I can appreciate that. However, we enacted legislation here not that long ago, in 2022, and that has been in force since September of this year. What is Mr. McHugh's assessment of the powers the Oireachtas has given the CCPC under that amending Act of 2022? Maybe it is too soon to ask this but have those powers been used by the CCPC yet to try to combat bid-rigging?

Mr. Brian McHugh

As the Deputy said, the Competition (Amendment) Act 2022 came into force in 2023 and one of the main tools it gave, which I mentioned in my opening statement, is leniency. This encourages parties to come forward with evidence and to look for leniency from us and is one of the key drivers of identifying and detecting cartels in Europe. We now have a leniency phone line and all the information is available on our website. Since we set that up, the phone is ringing. It is very early stages as the Deputy said but it has been successful. We know it has been very successful in other jurisdictions so we expect it to be successful here.

As regards our powers, for many years we have had powers to do searches or raids. That is something we always want to do where we have the evidence. We have done searches this year and we are planning further searches. We are very active in that space.

One of the points we want to made today is that the more tools we have to be able to detect cartels, the better because it is very difficult to do. For us, what today is about is following our international counterparts who have this power to screen the data. It would be another important tool to be able to find cartels, bring them to an end and punish those who have been carrying this out.

Under the Act that the Houses of the Oireachtas enacted in 2022, the CCPC was given the power in section 35 to affect quite significant types of surveillance. Has that been availed of by the CCPC or is that something Mr. McHugh envisages using in respect of bid-rigging?

Mr. Brian McHugh

It is an important power we have received. We very much welcome it. In terms of the type of secret behaviour that happens in cartels, surveillance would potentially be used in any of those cases. I do not want to go into detail about if and how we use it. I think everyone will understand that we need to be very careful today about what detail we can go into. It is an important tool and we absolutely intend to use it.

I am sorry; I should know this. In order to avail of the surveillance powers the CCPC has under section 35, it has to get authorisation from the High Court. Is that done openly or is it done in camera?

Mr. Brian McHugh

I will ask Ms Butler to answer that.

Ms Úna Butler

My understanding is that we have to get authorisation from a District Court judge. My understanding is that that would be done in camera.

Bid-rigging as a specific offence was created in the 2022 Act. Prior to that it did exist but the CCPC used to investigate it as a form of price-fixing or market-sharing.

Have there been any prosecutions or investigations in respect of it since the 2002 Act?

Ms Úna Butler

Yes, there have been prosecutions. The first bid-rigging prosecution taken was a case in the commercial flooring sector, in 2016 or 2017, where we investigated and referred a file to the DPP, which resulted in fines being imposed by the Central Criminal Court. We have undertaken another bid-rigging investigation in respect of publicly funded school bus transport services in parts of Munster and Leinster. Again, that investigation resulted in us referring a file to the DPP. There are 13 defendants in that case and it is awaiting trial before the Central Criminal Court, scheduled for January 2025.

The commission also commenced an investigation into the insurance industry, which has now concluded. Was that in the area of bid-rigging or cartel involvement?

Ms Úna Butler

That was an investigation in respect of price signalling, which is typically something we would not investigate using criminal powers. Rather, I think we would use our new administrative powers.

That was not a cartel investigation but rather more general, regarding prices set by insurance companies. Is that correct?

Ms Úna Butler

It was a price signalling investigation regarding behaviour between competitors, but that would, typically throughout Europe, be investigated using administrative powers.

If the amendment to the law that Mr. McHugh has looked for happens, will that give the commission access to the database the State operates through the OGP, whereby the commission would be able to use data surveillance to identify suspicious behaviour?

Ms Úna Butler

Yes, that is exactly what would happen. We would have access to tender data and would be given the power to compel contracting authorities, including the OGP and others, to provide us with this data. We would then have access to large data sets and could use the computer programming-type tools we have at our disposal to analyse that data to detect suspicious patterns.

Turning to Ms Stewart, in respect of that request, which is ultimately a political decision, am I correct in thinking the OGP would not have any objection to that, or is it an issue of concern?

Ms Anne Stewart

No, it is not an issue of concern from our perspective.

Although it is not a matter for Ms Stewart, given she is not a politician, the Department ultimately has no objection to legislation coming forward that would facilitate the CCPC in having screening powers over the procurement process.

Ms Anne Stewart

Yes, we have no issue with that, and we know it is done in other jurisdictions, including some of the other member states.

Given the size of the public procurement sector in Ireland, is Ms Stewart concerned about bid-rigging? I presume it goes on here in the same way it goes on in every other country, but is it a matter of concern to the Department of public expenditure that it may be operating?

Ms Anne Stewart

Any market irregularity would be of concern to us. From an OGP perspective, we have not had any suspicions through the tender processes we have run. As Mr. McHugh mentioned, it is incredibly difficult to detect, unfortunately, not least on a tender-by-tender basis. Where we can really see bid-rigging and that type of behaviour is through multiple tenders, which is why access to the data is so important.

Does anyone in the OGP have the function of assessing the bids coming in to see whether they are bid rigged?

Ms Anne Stewart

No, we do not have any specific resources dedicated to that. Our resources relate very much to experienced and professional sourcing individuals and buyers, and they look at the general rules and practices to ensure we are in line with EU directives and our national guidelines, which is our first priority. Obviously, if they note anything of suspicion through a tender process, they will always investigate further, but we do not have any specific resources in that regard at this time.

I very much welcome this session. As the Chair will know, I asked for it in the first instance, and I am very interested in the subject in the context of the landscape here. I thank both organisations for their statements. They referred to some of the bid-rigging cases the CCPC has been involved in, but what prosecutions have there been to date?

Ms Úna Butler

As I mentioned, we conducted an investigation in respect of the commercial flooring sector. That was not public procurement but procurement in the private sector. In that case, we got a complaint alleging there had been collusion or bid-rigging between two companies in the commercial flooring sector in Dublin that were providing flooring to office premises in Dublin. We conducted an investigation in that case and sent a file to the DPP, which prosecuted one of the companies involved. The other company had sought immunity under our cartel immunity programme. That case resulted in a conviction in the Central Criminal Court. The company and the director involved were both convicted of bid-rigging and fines were imposed.

We have had another investigation in respect of school bus transport services-----

Yes, I got that. Has just one company been prosecuted to date, given the school bus case is in train?

Ms Úna Butler

Yes, one company and the director of the company.

That case was not related, as Ms Butler said, to procurement contracts, so no one has been prosecuted in this State for public procurement.

Ms Úna Butler

The school bus transport case relates to public procurement, given it is publicly funded school bus transport. A prosecution of that case is pending before the Central Criminal Court.

The answer, therefore, is that no one has been prosecuted in this State for a public procurement contract.

Ms Úna Butler

No, not to date.

How many times has the OGP, or any of the four other central purchasing bodies, whether education, defence, health or local government, contacted the CCPC to report suspected bid-rigging?

Mr. Brian McHugh

Again, I think it is best we do not get into the details of this, but there have been contacts with procurement officials over the years. Obviously, they can lead to investigations and, potentially, result in serious convictions. We would prefer not to go into the detail of it. We put effort into establishing relationships with procurement officials, so perhaps we can talk about what we do in that space. Ms Butler attended a conference yesterday doing exactly this.

Based on what we see internationally and here, is it likely to be as a result of honest companies operating here? Is it due to a lack of powers or resources for the CCPC or the fact it is not a priority for the Government? I am trying to get a picture of the landscape.

Mr. Brian McHugh

We have no reason to believe bid-rigging or cartel activities are not occurring in Ireland, given we see them in so many jurisdictions internationally. One of the big issues we faced as an organisation was the lack of a leniency programme in Ireland. As I mentioned, in the case of the big cartel cases in other European countries, most of them have come about because of leniency. We now have that and we think it will make a big difference.

In addition, other jurisdictions have screening and cartels have been identified through screening programmes, which is why we are here today. As I mentioned in my opening statement, detecting cartels is difficult. They are concealed very well, so we need all the tools we can get to be able to identify them.

Yes, and Mr. McHugh's opening statement was very informative in terms of what we need to discuss here. He mentioned the case unfolding in Austria that could involve €61 billion in public money, where construction companies could face hundreds of millions of euro in fines as a result.

We also saw the case in Spain last year. Are any of the companies involved in the Austrian bid-rigging case operating in Ireland? Have any of the companies involved won any public procurement contracts in Ireland?

Mr. Brian McHugh

I am not aware of whether they are operating in Ireland. As the Deputy said, there have been multiple cases throughout Europe and internationally of very large companies that have been involved in cartel behaviour. Many of those do operate in Ireland, in different industries. Again, the idea that cartels do not exist in Ireland and that Ireland is some kind of island of innocence is not something we believe in. We believe cartels are here. All of us today will be careful in terms of suggesting that any specific sector or set of companies might be doing anything. Speaking generally, however, we do believe that there is cartel behaviour. Where we have the data and where we get the legal ability to access that data, we will look at what sectors and areas we might prioritise in respect of looking at that data. Where cartels have existed elsewhere would be one of the criteria we would examine in terms of prioritising the data we would screen to begin with.

I understand that. As things are now, even as a preliminary consideration, it is public knowledge which companies have been involved in bid rigging and were fined and prosecuted in other countries. Does this automatically raise an alert in the CCPC or in the Government to give extra scrutiny to those companies that have already been prosecuted in other countries? How does the commission deal with companies that have already been prosecuted in other countries?

If we look to Spain, for instance, in July 2022, six Spanish construction firms were fined €200 million by the Spanish regulator for colluding on bids for public construction contracts. The Spanish state banned those companies from participating in public procurement processes. Five of those companies have won public construction contracts in Ireland. Is there any uniformity evident across member states in terms of the banning of companies that have been prosecuted?

Mr. Brian McHugh

In terms of what procurement agencies do, I am not be aware of what they might do throughout Europe. What I can say is that we follow what happens elsewhere in Europe in terms of where there is cartel activity. Unfortunately, it happens in nearly all markets with some very big players. Our approach to this issue is, as I mentioned, to identify the sectors we want to prioritise and to begin there in screening the data.

We see over and over again where this happens. I could name out lists of companies to Mr. McHugh that have been involved in securing contracts here despite their having been banned in other member states. Is there no collaboration across member states that will lead to standards being imposed in this context? What is the collaboration? Is there any formal collaboration?

Mr. Brian McHugh

There is a huge amount of collaboration at the European level from a competition perspective. In terms of how parties that have been convicted of breaching competition law might be dealt with by procurement agencies, from a competition network perspective, that is not a decision for us. I know it has been discussed at the European level from the point of view of procurement agencies how this kind of undertaking might be co-ordinated, but I do not claim to be an expert in this area.

Does that make us more at risk here? Five of the six companies implicated in the bid-rigging situation in Spain have won procurement contracts in Ireland. How are they attracted to operate in Ireland, in essence? Are there loopholes we have that do not exist in other member states? Do international events of this nature trigger reviews? Would the CCPC look back over the awarding of contracts even in a situation where information comes to light after those contracts have been allocated or awarded? Did the Spanish case, for instance, trigger a review anywhere within the Government?

Mr. Brian McHugh

From our perspective, we do not have access to the data from a procurement point of view. This is one of the reasons we are here today. I am not aware that there is a European-wide uniform response from a procurement point of view if a particular company has been found guilty in an individual member state in terms of breaching competition law.

Is Mr. McHugh saying the CCPC cannot do a review without the data? Is there some level of review that can be done even with the gaps that exist in the data?

Ms Anne Stewart

I might be able to add more context to this question. There are several elements to this. First, when we run a procurement competition, we run it under presumed legal compliance. Basically, this means there is a declaration requirement within the tender documents where a tenderer must declare whether it has submitted its proposal independently and whether any legal obligations are being fallen afoul of. It could be anything in this regard, including social and environmental, along with these types of issues.

Is this anywhere in Europe or anywhere in the world?

Ms Anne Stewart

Yes. Applicants must declare that. In the case of the Spanish issue, the challenge we have with European procurement law is that we cannot exclude a tenderer unless there has been a final judgment. In the case of the Spanish companies, they have appealed the process. While the case is going through the appeal process, it is open to those companies to continue to bid for contracts and to win them. This is because public authorities cannot exclude them on the grounds that the final judgment has not fully come through or been activated. This is a real struggle for procurement teams.

Regarding the current tenders going through and that some of these companies are bidding for, I cannot comment too much on them because these competitions are not run by the OGP. Many of them are, instead, run by the NDFA. I have, though, communicated with that agency and what it has told us is that it is applying due diligence and has sought legal advice, and for now, because there has been no final judgment in the Spanish case, the tender process will be managed as normal.

Ms Stewart can, therefore, categorically say that where there is a final judgment, and this has been declared or findable, these companies would not be considered for a public contract here.

Ms Anne Stewart

They would not be considered. There is also another challenge whereby there is no central European database for this information. In other words, member states do not feed in the details of all the companies that may have had judgments passed on them. This brings us back 360° again to the presumed legal compliance and that when the tenderers sign the legal declaration, they are signing to say they have no judgments against them. Some of the companies in Ireland, including some of those Spanish companies that have bid for work in Ireland, are not relying upon their parent companies, which would be the Spanish arm of the enterprise, in some cases, and are operating as a separate entity. This is quite challenging from a procurement standpoint, but, certainly, where there is a final legal judgment, we can exclude them per the directives.

Has the OGP ever excluded a company from tendering for a public contract because either the company itself or its parent company has been prosecuted?

Ms Anne Stewart

Again, I can only talk from an OGP perspective because we do not run all the tender competitions, as can be imagined. From our perspective, then, to the best of my knowledge, I do not believe so.

What is the overall body in charge here in this regard? I ask Ms Stewart to tell us about the structures that exist. Who would have the information about whether a public contract was awarded to a company that had been prosecuted in another state or had part of that company prosecuted in another state?

Ms Anne Stewart

I do not know if there is one particular body, because, as I said, from a member state perspective, in the context of public procurement, there is no single database for this information. It would be up to each country to hold its own information. Basically, if, after a contract was awarded, it was discovered that a contractor or an economic operator had signed to say there were no judgments against it, then we could cancel the contract. We can terminate a contract, but we do rely on this presumed legal compliance once tenderers sign off on documents.

Reviews are not being carried out at the moment because we do not have the data. It seems to be a confusing situation and I can see why it would be attractive to someone who is involved in bid-rigging. They would see so many loopholes that the chances of them being found out are low. As Mr. McHugh alluded to earlier, this is done so covertly that we seem to be at high risk of it happening because of our piecemeal approach to trying to uncover the information and carry out the reviews. It is deeply worrying.

How do we establish familiar patterns in the State in the absence of data? How are we establishing and looking for patterns at the moment? Are we identifying them?

Mr. Brian McHugh

Insofar as we are aware, the way it works internationally is that it is always the competition body that will screen for bid rigging. We are not aware of any procurement agency that has been tasked with it. Access to the data is required to do it, which would be possible under the legislation we talked about. If we could access the data, it would be possible to start screening to look for patterns. As was mentioned in the opening statement and by Ms Stewart, it is not about one tender. The behaviour of these companies needs to be looked at in a particular market over a number of tenders and over a number of years. For example, one of the things that might be looked for is where there is market sharing, that is, where I will never go into your market and you will never go into my market. We agree to share our markets. That can be looked at in tenders in different markets over a number of years to see whether it is a pattern. That is one example. In order to do that, we would need access to the data. We largely have the tools and the skill set in-house. We are ready to do this. We work closely with our international colleagues who are doing this. They are looking at different techniques and different patterns and they can look back at cartels they have uncovered to see what the patterns were in those bidding processes. They can learn from that and reverse-engineer what the behaviour might look like. We are very much part of a strong European community so we can learn from one another, but the first step is to get access to the data.

We have not been doing that.

We need to review not only the contracts that were won, but also the bids of contractors that were put in and then withdrawn. Evidence was found in a Spanish court that the tactic of bidding and then withdrawing to sabotage the procurement process was rife. Does the CCPC carry out reviews over a longer period to see whether that is happening here with companies pulling out?

Mr. Brian McHugh

We absolutely would if we had access to the data. The Deputy is correct. That is one of the types of patterns we would look for, but we would need access to the data and then potentially engagement with the contracting party about what exactly was going on in tenders where there are specific questions.

Would the CCPC need the level of data Mr. McHugh has referred to in order to be able to do that? I could sit down and look at different contractors that have bid for different things and been unsuccessful and find a pattern, if I had the time. The CCPC could do that without the data. It could look at specific companies because these are large operators. There is not a huge number of them.

Mr. Brian McHugh

We would need the data of tender submissions, tender withdrawals and potentially any reasons given for them, for example. It is hard to do that without access to data. The legal right to access the data is in the hands of the contracting authority. The screen would span a number of years for similar types of tenders. There might be a large amount of data in a screen. It would be hard to do that without being able to tell a contracting authority that we require a particular set of tender submissions over a certain number of years. If we could do so, we could take that data in-house and analyse them.

Has the children's hospital process been reviewed by the CCPC through that lens?

Mr. Brian McHugh

When doing screening, we tend to look at a market over many years, not one project. The standard approach is to look at patterns of behaviour over many tenders.

When there are different revelations about a project of that size - it is one of the biggest, if not the biggest the country will ever deliver - would the CCPC not consider it vital that it be done?

Mr. Brian McHugh

The construction sector generally is one where we have seen cartel behaviour and bid-rigging in many other jurisdictions. It would be a priority if we had access to the data, but we would not look at one project. In order to see patterns, we would look at construction projects in a specific sector over a number of years. That is the approach that has been successful in identifying those patterns elsewhere, to be able to build a case and potentially to be able to get a warrant to carry out searches and do raids. In order to get a warrant to do a raid, an amount of evidence is needed. They are not necessarily easy to get. From time to time, we look for a warrant and do not receive it from a judge. A reasonable level of evidence is needed to get a warrant. From what we have seen elsewhere, the type of evidence that is built on the back of screening comes from looking at patterns over a period that provide a certain threshold of suspicion. That is what we have seen elsewhere and what we intend to do to begin with, with the powers to access the data. We would prioritise certain sectors, probably including construction.

When will the CCPC be at a point where it has the data necessary to be able to do what was done in Austria, Spain and other countries? I have not even gone into Australia yet.

Mr. Brian McHugh

Whenever the legislation is passed and we have the legal right to tell the contracting authority we require the data and it can give it to us because the legal arrangements are in place, once those barriers are lifted, we will be able to screen. It is a matter of having the legislation in place.

Okay. I thank Mr. McHugh. I will finish with this. It is absolutely scandalous that we do not have legislation in place and have been operating in a system that is so exposed to risk, exposes public money and everything involved to risk. We need to have further discussions about this and the legislation needs to be expedited as quickly as possible. It is clear from today and from the information the committee has gathered that this is a serious issue. It is scandalous that the Government has been so uninterested in its implications heretofore.

I welcome our guests to the committee. I only have a couple of questions because previous speakers have gone through a lot and been quite thorough. I appreciate the witnesses' responses. Perhaps they could talk about lowballing or abnormally low tenders. They will be aware that my party introduced legislation, the Regulation of Tenderers Bill, which sought to regulate abnormally low tenders using a method similar to the one used in the North to disqualify lowball bids, which often escalate as works proceed. Unfortunately, there are a number of classic examples of that in the State at present. Perhaps the OGP would provide its view of the incidence and effects of lowballing in public procurement contracts?

Ms Anne Stewart

There is a very strict process with regard to abnormally low tenders. When we are going through tender analysis and data, if we suspect that a tender looks suspiciously low for the service or goods being purchased, we investigate it further. Sometimes it is justified because it could be related to the economic manufacturing of the product or service, or there could be other reasons. It could be down to the operating models that particular suppliers use. Sometimes there are valid reasons for it even though it appears low. However, those cases are heavily investigated because we know that this is a huge challenge. I can only comment on the OGP tenders because, as I mentioned earlier, we do not run all of the tenders throughout the State.

Is Ms Stewart familiar with the regulations or methodology used in the North? Does she believe they would be of benefit here?

Ms Anne Stewart

I will hand over to my colleague Mr. David O'Brien who can give some more detail on this.

Mr. David O'Brien

Yes, we are familiar with the processes used in the North. We have made an input into the Private Members' Bill that the Deputy's colleagues introduced. We feel that the legislation goes further than is permitted under the directives in defining an abnormally low tender in the manner that was proposed. The directives allow for the exclusion of a bid that appears abnormally low relative to the prices for the goods, services and works. It cannot be automatically excluded. We are only obliged to exclude where it can be determined that the price is low because the contractor or the bidder is not complying with labour law, environmental law and such matters. There is also the provision with respect to trying to apply a formula to determine whether a bid is abnormally low in respect of the spread of bids that could be prevalent on a project. It could lead to unintended consequences with respect to the bid in question and potentially lead to challenges to the award of the contract if somebody were to be excluded in that fashion.

I thank Mr. O'Brien for his response. Obviously a methodology was used in another European member state that looked at the issue of lowballing. Is that something the OGP would be in favour of? Mr. O'Brien mentioned the definition but is that something that the OGP thinks is not required here or something that could be considered in this State?

Mr. David O'Brien

Each tender has to be taken on its individual merits. The various documents and specifications that make up a project have to be looked at. That is what the bidders are responding to as well. If the bidders see that there is an advantage in any aspect of that - particularly in construction projects where there is such a spread of materials, methodologies and solutions to deliver the project - they can propose innovative solutions or they could potentially be looking at gaps in the information that is supplied. That is quite often an avenue where claims arise thereafter. Essentially excluding them on the basis that you have arrived at a decision that the bid is abnormally low is something that could give rise to a challenge. It is necessary to tread carefully with respect to an exclusion on that basis.

Do we exclude because they are abnormally low at the minute?

Mr. David O'Brien

I cannot speak with any authority on the numbers of bids that have been excluded.

Have we ever done so? That is the question.

Mr. David O'Brien

I am not aware, but we may well have. There may be circumstances where contracting authorities have done so.

Perhaps Mr. O'Brien could check on that and come back to the committee on it. Is he saying we have the power to do that?

Mr. David O'Brien

Under the regulations, yes, we have the power to exclude. As I have said, there is a process that is followed.

The EU directive on public procurement allows for the disqualification from future contracts of economic operators that have displayed repeated and persistent failings over the course of previous public procurement contracts. How many times has this clause been actioned to disqualify economic operators from future public contracts?

Mr. David O'Brien

In order for that one to be triggered, the exclusion grounds must show that it led to penalties or early termination. Those circumstances are fairly solid ground with respect to excluding somebody. Again, I am not aware of circumstances where this has been applied but we can respond with a note on it. It is not enough to be dissatisfied with the performance of the contractor or the supplier. Steps must have been taken to address that under the contract, namely, taking money off as permitted under the contract or early termination.

Taking money off would be normal. There would be numerous State contracts where money would be taken off because of some failings in a contract. From the information available at the minute or to his knowledge, Mr. O'Brien cannot say whether we have ever disqualified an abnormally low bid, and also that we have never actually used a clause to actually ban somebody from future public contracts because of past behaviour. In regard to those two areas, is there no evidence at hand to say we have used either of those in the past?

Mr. David O'Brien

Not to hand.

My next question is for the CCPC. I will come back later to the OGP. It has been mentioned that a system of screening for bid rigging has been applied in a number of jurisdictions; Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands were mentioned. In December 2020 the Hamilton review group made recommendations including legislation to enable the collection, collation and analysis of all public procurement data in order to detect bid rigging. The CCPC's engagement with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in this issue has been referenced. What is the current status of this legislation and the implementation of this recommendation, to your knowledge?

Mr. Brian McHugh

The Hamilton recommendations led to the Hamilton advisory group. It concluded its advice in September this year by recommending that our Department - the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment - would take forward the legislation. We have been discussing the legislation with the Department in terms of what it might involve and how to take it forward. We have had very positive engagement on that. We have put together our own project team to be ready in 2024 to help to progress the legislation in any way we can. It has been generally positive. Obviously a decision will have to be made in terms of priorities, but we are very much hoping it is a priority for the Oireachtas in 2024.

Being a priority for the Oireachtas in 2024 probably means that legislation is likely. Even if it was a priority, it is likely to be enacted in 2025 which would be five years after the review. Is there a serious issue in terms of Departments not taking these matters seriously? This same Hamilton review called for an anti-fraud strategy in the Department of Justice, but four years on we still do not have it even though thousands of people are being scammed. The scams are increasing. We do not even have an anti-fraud strategy that has been reviewed. This is another example of legislation that was recommended; in this case, with regard to the collection, collation and analysis of public procurement. It seems we might see something next year. Is that satisfactory? We are talking about bid rigging and what could be deemed white-collar crime. This is theft of public money.

Is bid rigging not theft of public money? However, the Department does not regard it as a priority. It is just theft of public money. On the recommendation on fraud, the Department of Justice is completely ignoring that and giving it no priority despite its being the biggest crime growth area in the State. I am baffled at the lack of priority Departments are giving to these issues.

Mr. Brian McHugh

I cannot speak for the Department. It is absolutely a priority for us as we have explained today. We recognise the amount of legislation we have seen recently - the Competition (Amendment) Act, the Consumer Rights Act and the price indication directive. We have worked closely with the Department on quite a bit of legislation recently. Obviously, I cannot speak to what gets prioritised and how soon it happens. From our point of view, we want it as soon as we can get it.

Ms Úna Butler

One of the recommendations in the Hamilton report was the creation of a specific offence of bid rigging. That was included in the Competition (Amendment) Act. We regard that as a very positive development. That has been in force since September of this year.

I wish to return to the OGP. What are Ms Stewart's views on the quality of recording and retention of procurement and public contract data across public bodies and agencies, especially the HSE, for the establishment of analysis of public procurement data and for it to be effective?

Ms Anne Stewart

I cannot speak for any particular agency. Regarding public procurement, there is a huge onus on the remedies directive. Anyone who has an interest in a particular tender process can rely heavily on the remedies directive to launch a challenge. As a result of that, the procurement process tends to be very heavily managed in terms of documentation, managing end to end what has happened throughout the timeline, even down to date stamping. It is quite heavily managed in that respect. I cannot speak for any specific agency, but if a challenge is launched, all that information needs to be made available.

Is Ms Stewart concerned about the retention of procurement and public contract data across public bodies?

Ms Anne Stewart

Again, I cannot comment because unfortunately I do not have any view on how individual agencies manage their data. Obviously, the e-tenders platform has a certain amount of data in there. It is mandatory that all competitions are advertised. It is also mandatory that the contract award notifications over €25,000 are put on to the system. They have to be on e-tenders. Other than that, it is not mandatory to hold any further documentation on the e-tenders platform.

Information I have received from the Department of public expenditure recently claimed that, on 6 October, a briefing to be provided to the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, stated that the estimated compliance rate with central procurement solutions is at best 50% to 60% with respect to the health Vote. That is a shocking statement from a senior official to the Minister for public expenditure. Does the Office of Government Procurement have any comment, any knowledge, any interaction or any statement? Can Ms Stewart shed any light on this claim by officials to the Minister?

Ms Anne Stewart

I should start by saying there is a procurement executive where these things are discussed on an ongoing basis. We constantly and consistently work with all the parties, including the HSE, in increasing the usage of these central arrangements across all these agencies. There are challenges and they are not a catch-all. They will probably capture 80% to 90% of the overall requirements of all the public agencies. On a consistent basis we work to improve the scope and the available goods and services on those frameworks so that they can be used by individual agencies. I cannot particularly comment directly on the HSE. I know it has section 38 and section 39 agencies which it needs to manage to ensure they are using those central arrangements. They would have their own processes internally as to how they do that.

We also have key account managers who work very closely with each of the agencies, focused on two pieces of activity. One is generating bespoke competitions which the OGP runs on behalf of agencies. We also work with them to increase the scope, change the scope, and make it more aligned to their requirements so that the central arrangements can be leveraged even more. We are working really diligently to try to increase that.

It is good that the OGP is working with the HSE and all the rest. Does Ms Stewart stand over the claim that the estimated compliance rate with central procurement solutions is at best 50% to 60% with respect to the health Vote? The health Vote is massive. Is that claim accurate?

Ms Anne Stewart

I have not seen that document. I do not have the exact information to hand and so I cannot confirm today, unfortunately. I can certainly get a note on it for the Deputy.

It is fair enough that Ms Stewart may not have the exact information. However, is it in that ballpark or is it in the low teens? The Department is saying the health Vote's compliance rate with central procurement solutions is at best 50% to 60%, which means that nearly half of all procurement is non-compliant. Is it in that ballpark?

Ms Anne Stewart

I honestly could not comment on the health Vote by itself. When we look at central arrangements, we look at it collectively for all Government agencies. The central arrangements are linked to 16 categories, of which the OGP manages eight, amounting to about 92 frameworks. Therefore, it would not be all the HSE framework and just the central arrangements piece, which would be a much smaller part of its overall procurement.

The statement from the senior official to the Minister referred to the compliance rate with central procurement solutions. Therefore, it is not all solutions but central procurement in which the Office of Government Procurement has a direct involvement. Is it in that ballpark? Is the health vote non-compliant by approximately 40% to 50%?

Ms Anne Stewart

It certainly sounds that it is there or thereabouts.

If it is there or thereabouts, what has the Office of Government Procurement being doing in recent years to make sure that nearly half the health Vote central procurement is compliant with the processes that have been agreed?

Ms Anne Stewart

As I mentioned earlier, we work very closely with all those agencies. We have our key account managers who work closely with them to determine their usage of those frameworks. We monitor the spend going through them. We constantly work with them to change the depth of the scope of all those arrangements. We work that through the executive. We also work it through the interim procurement reform board. It is something we literally work on every day to try to improve the usage. However, we rely on the HSE to bring its section 38 and section 39 agencies in line, just as we would do with the Department of Education to get it to bring all the colleges and schools in line. The same applies with local authorities to make sure they do the same. I am not going to sit here and say it is not challenging. It is extremely challenging.

To assist the committee, which oversees the OGP, can the office provide the committee with the top 20 procurement contracts or solutions by value that were not compliant so far this year? The office can anonymise whatever needs to be anonymised in terms of the services that were provided, who the service was provided to and who provided the service or whatever. The information will help the committee in its analysis. We want to know, for example, whether an entity went to its local laundry for sheets to be washed in the hospital, as opposed to through a centralised system and the rationale for doing so. The data will help us to understand why there is large number of non-compliant central procurement solutions in the health Vote. The data would help us to understand the value of them in the first instance and the type of contracts. I would appreciate if a note could be provided as to why they fell outside the accepted or agreed procurement framework.

Ms Anne Stewart

I am sure we can pull that data for the committee. Earlier I should have mentioned that we do monitor when a new competition is launched on the eTenders platform. Every day we do a run-through of what has been placed on the eTenders platform. If we see a tender launched there that is for something we believe could have been purchased off a central arrangement, then we go back to that authority and question in detail as to why they have particularly launched that. For example, if it is cleaning and we have a cleaning framework then we will ask why did they not use the central framework, what is different in terms of their requirements versus what we have in the framework, etc. We have that check and balance in place.

That is very helpful for our understanding on this end. I thank Ms Stewart. I thank the OGP and CCPC for the valuable work they do.

Mr. Brian McHugh

I thank the Deputy.

Ms Anne Stewart

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Conway-Walsh asked a question and Ms Butler discussed in her response the school bus system. Inasmuch as she can, will Ms Butler give me the background details?

Ms Úna Butler

Yes. It is a case that came to our attention. The allegation was bid rigging in the procurement of publicly funded bus transport services in parts of Munster and Leinster. We opened an investigation. We conducted a large number of what we call dawn raids. It was quite a detailed investigation. Ultimately, we referred a file to the DPP, which is what we have to do at the end of one of our criminal investigations. We recommended that charges should be brought against the people who were participating in that bid-rigging cartel. The DPP decided to bring charges against 13 defendants. I think it was ten individuals and three companies. The case currently awaits trial.

Did the case specifically involve the public bus system or the school bus system?

Ms Úna Butler

It was school bus services provided by independent contractors, who tendered to provide the kind of school bus service. It is publicly funded.

They tender as part of the process with Bus Éireann.

Ms Úna Butler

Exactly, yes.

Can someone answer about Bus Éireann as to why the service is not put out to tender?

Ms Anne Stewart

I am not aware of a particular tender for Bus Éireann. Certainly not-----

That is the issue. Ms Stewart is from the Office of Government Procurement. Bus Éireann is paid for by taxpayers, that is, directly from the Government to Bus Éireann. In turn, Bus Éireann uses independent operators. Presumably, the 13 defendants are part of the provision by Bus Éireann of the school transport system. However, the school transport system and that contract with Bus Éireann is never tendered.

Ms Anne Stewart

I do not know the details. Of that specific tender on school buses, I would not have the details on it.

I know that. Is it not of concern to the Office of Government Procurement that significant Government moneys are spent on a school bus system that never ever went to tender? Is that not odd? Is it not against the European Union's regulations or laws?

Ms Anne Stewart

I do not know if that is the case, Chair. I would have to look at the details. By EU law, everything has to be competitively tendered. Under Circular 40/02, there is an ability for contracting authorities to issue every year a list of any contracts that they have not competitively tendered. That is sent in to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The OGP gets a copy of that so we see all non-competitively tendered contracts on an annual basis. In general, if something has not been competitively tendered does not necessarily mean it is non-compliant against the procurement rules because sometimes there are valid reasons something is not competitively tendered.

What exactly are the valid reasons?

Ms Anne Stewart

For example, an Oracle system may have been installed, which is a huge investment and it is the core enterprise resource planning, ERP, system. That may not be something that you would put back out to tender in five years' time because the investment is greater than if you were to change. Another example is where the contract that had been in place has expired and you have run out of options to extend it but that may be because of a challenge to the new tender process that you were trying to put in place and, therefore, you had to continue on with the existing contract until that tender gets re-run. There are cases where you can award a contract in a non-competitive situation but it may not necessarily be non-compliant.

In the case of something like school buses, because there are many of those types of companies then certainly that should be competitively tendered. Unfortunately, because I do not have the background on that particular one I cannot say for sure it was not tendered.

I would like to be in order now when I ask my question.

Ms Anne Stewart

Of course, yes.

So tell me if this is not within the OGP's remit. The school bus system is operated through the Department of Education obviously. For 20 years or more, people will have heard numerous complaints in this House, by parents on behalf of their children, every single year about the transport system operated to schools. On the other end of that are the independent or private school bus operators who are contracted to Bus Éireann. Those operators complain about the price and the way they have been treated. I do not know this for a fact, because I cannot get an answer that explains everything, but I presume that all of those independent contractors must go through a procurement process with Bus Éireann itself. They win the contract and on they go but the main contract is between Bus Éireann and the Government. I do not know how much that contract is worth but I am sure it is a significant amount of money and for a lot of people, it does not function very well at all. Forever and a day, we have tried to get answers as to why it is all not tendered.

I checked with some of the major bus operators in the country and they said they could of course tender for that but they have never been asked. Can the officials check that as part of their work in order to establish why it is not happening? They might give a note to the committee on the background to it.

Ms Anne Stewart

I can certainly look into the matter. As I do not know the background to it, I am not sure whether it is run by-----

I appreciate that.

Ms Anne Stewart

It could be run by the educational procurement services. I am just not sure whether it is the Department that runs it.

I will say a couple of things on general procurement practice. Through the procurement practice, economic operators do not get invited to tender. It is up to them to be registered on the eTenders system so they can get the alerts. When economic operators register on the system, they register with what is called a CPV code. That then alerts the operator to any tenders that are run linked to that code. It does not necessarily have to be only one code. An operator could register ten codes if it provides different services. What basically happens is the operator will get an alert to say there is a tender on the system it may like to bid for. It is possible some of those operators are not registered on the system at all and are not even seeing the alerts. The other thing that could happen is it may not necessarily be that the tender is going through Bus Éireann and it is farming it out. It could be the case that the tender is launched just for school bus services and it could be broken into lots. Hence, certain providers in, say, Munster will then bid for those particular lots but maybe not for the overall service. That is a general view to give the Cathaoirleach some context for how the tender process works.

Yes. My information is that it is not a very transparent system. The reason the big independent operators do not react to the alert Ms Stewart described that issues when a procurement is being put in place is that there is not a procurement in place, which is strange. I have asked Ms Stewart for the information-----

Ms Anne Stewart

I will certainly look for-----

-----and she might be kind enough to pass it on to the committee.

Ms Anne Stewart

I will do so.

Have there been many occasions on which this particular activity was detected in the last year or two?

Ms Anne Stewart

Is the Deputy referring to bid-rigging directly?

Ms Anne Stewart

Again, I can only speak from an OGP perspective. We have not put forward to the CCPC any suspicions regarding any of the bids we have been managing in the last number of years.

Would Ms Stewart know if some of the bids her office observed had been suspicious or would she have taken any action in those circumstances?

Ms Anne Stewart

I do not know if I would say directly with regard to bid-rigging. Any suspicions we have with any tender, be it abnormally low or high, we generally investigate. If we think there was some type of collusion or something that would be a criminal-type irregularity, we always pass that information straight to the relevant authority. Our sourcing teams are informed to do that. If it is just general issues with the bid we think are irregular, such as it being abnormally low or high, as I said, that we tend to investigate ourselves.

Sometimes people who see themselves as victims of abnormally low or high bids decide to submit a bid on the extreme of one side or the other in order to see what the outcome will be. Has Ms Stewart detected any of that?

Ms Anne Stewart

Not to my knowledge.

I will explain the kind of thing I am talking about. I have often heard complaints from people who have bid to supply particular services or whatever and have never been successful. They complain they can never get through the bidding system successfully. They then try to discover what is going on by putting in a bid that is either extraordinarily high or low to try to break the system. Has Ms Stewart every observed anything like that?

Ms Anne Stewart

I have not experienced that. When we complete tenders and award contracts we provide detailed feedback for those that are unsuccessful. It is in fact mandatory for us to do so under the directives. We provide really detailed feedback because we are very conscious we want more economic operators bidding. We want as many as possible to do so. We are happy to give that feedback and we often take time to guide those bidders through where they went wrong in their submission. We also try to steer them towards some of the companies that provide training on how to submit bids for public tenders because we are very conscious that it is a very complex process. Not only is it resource-intensive but it can also be costly depending on the type of tender. We are very conscious of that. We try to help the bidders as much as we can and to guide them so they can do better the next time.

What happens if the office comes across a complaint, as I did, where the bidder says it bid several times to provide a particular service or whatever, has never been successful and does not believe it can ever be successful because no matter what it does, there is always something better? What would be the cause of that?

Ms Anne Stewart

There would be multiple causes. To be realistic, we have often had bidders we have sat with multiple times to explain where they have gone wrong, but they make the same mistakes time and again. They forget to submit documents or they do not do the correct declarations. They may feel the way they have answered the questions is really good, but when we see the bids side by side there are deficits. We really try to help them understand that because, as I said, we are keen for more economic operators to bid, as that obviously offers greater competition. Outside of that, it is difficult if a bidder does not win. Mr. O'Brien may be able to add some more context to that.

Mr. David O'Brien

Yes. The unique feature with public procurement is concerned bidders - tenderers involved in the competition - can challenge the decision of the contracting authority in the courts if they feel there is an issue with the bidding process. Public bodies are open to scrutiny then in the courts.

How often is that done?

Mr. David O'Brien

It happens. I will not say it happens every week, but there have been a significant number of procurement cases in the High Court over the past few years on a variety of issues. Any decision-----

Have the cases pursued in the courts been successful?

Mr. David O'Brien

In some cases, the court has decided in favour of the person making the complaint. On other occasions, it will go in the direction of the contracting authority. There is a process there.

I accept that but the reason I am pursuing this issue is that, regardless of whether it happens regularly or only once every two or three years, I am anxious to ensure there are protections in place for the consumer, the bidder and the service for which the tender process is taking place. How secure can the office feel that all the procedures in place are sufficient to meet the challenges of possible rigour?

Ms Anne Stewart

All our procedures are based on national legislation, the EU directives or a combination of both. They are followed to the letter of the law. Obviously, I cannot comment on what every contracting authority does to ensure it remains within those lines.

If they do not, they will fall foul of being challenged. This is probably one of the things the public buyers are most conscious of, because besides getting the tender to run, and because tenders can sometimes take some time to run since they are very complex, they move very cautiously to ensure they work within those procedures as they know that at any point in the process there could be a challenge launched. When a challenge is launched, it has detrimental effects to that particular agency. In the case of the likes Uisce Éireann, it could prevent sewers being jetted which would become a public health issue. It could perhaps prevent a contract being executed on time to get a good or a service in or to finish a construction project, etc. Public buyers are very cautious in ensuring that when they are running tender processes, they are working within those procedures to ensure they are compliant with the directives so they avoid a challenge at all costs. That is probably the primary concern of public buyers.

The only thing I would say in this regard is that it is an important subject. We all get people who, from time to time, say to us that they have tendered for whatever proposal it is but that they did not hear from anyone or that they did not know what went on. In many cases and over many years they have tried and failed to make a tender land, as it were. I accept that there can be situations where all of the documents were not supplied in the order in which they should have been and so on. It is a complicated business but the more complicated it is, the easier it is for somebody to rig the system. I just worry about that because it has come to my attention on a couple of occasions that there is a simpler way, and I am not going to be broadcasting that. However, I remember a guy saying to me that this system was rigged and that he could not do anything about it. I told him what to do. He then came back to me to say that I was wrong and that process did not do any good at all. I then proceeded to inquire as to who was the winner and who were the losers. There is a simple way to detect what is going on but one has to know what is in at least two of the tenders. One needs to know a higher one and a lower one.

The point about this is that it can be detected and the system can be broken by people who are attempting to, as it were, rig the system. I am happy our guest speakers are alert to this but I am not so sure about the number of cases we all have referred to us from time to time where the bidder says that they put in a bid, that it makes no difference and that they have been putting in bids for years, but they cannot get through the system. That is the point I am trying to emphasise and I am hope that perhaps, as a result of this discussion, it may be possible to make some inroads into any abuses which might be taking place.

Ms Anne Stewart

I suggest to the Deputy that if he ever comes across some of these cases, it would be great to have them contact our helpdesk. We have a central helpdesk with a group of professionals who know the procurement and tender process inside out. Even if it is not necessarily an Office of Government Procurement, OGP, tender, our helpdesk is open for everyone, both economic operators and all agencies and members of the public. We would be delighted to get those examples in because then we can very much work through an example. It is always easier when one has an example that one can sit down and work through and we would be very happy to certainly do that.

I thank Ms Stewart and that will do.

I thank Deputy Durkan. Finally, I wish to ask the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission the same question as I asked Ms Stewart on the school bus transport. In that system, one has customers who have complaints relative to the service itself. Does the commission take those complaints and investigate them if it were to receive them?

Mr. Brian McHugh

We receive complaints about potential breaches of the law and whether it is competition or consumer protection, we will look into them and, potentially, begin an investigation. Many of our cases, and indeed elsewhere, are begun on the basis of a complaint. We are not an ombudsman who deals with, takes and tries to address all of one's complaints. It is, however, a very important avenue of information for us.

Will the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission take a complaint from a person who uses and, essentially, is a consumer of that service, to look at whether it is valid or not? Is it then when Mr. McHugh's organisation kicks in, as it were?

Mr. Brian McHugh

Yes, if they believe there is a breach of the law which is under our remit, that is absolutely the case.

We deal with many banking queries here regarding banks, their customers and the tracker mortgage is a prime example. How far does the commission go with banking inquiries? Does it take individual inquiries or complaints and deal with them and does it look across all of the banks, if necessary?

Mr. Brian McHugh

On individual complaints, obviously, the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman is in place for the banking sector and it will and did deal with some of those complaints on tracker mortgages. We do not deal with those individual complaints but where there are general complaints in any area that is relevant to us, we will look at them. We have a helpline which provides information to consumers on things like consumer rights. We have a great deal of information also on our website.

One of the things we do in banking is that we have comparisons of mortgages, for example, where over 2 million people visit our website every year. The most popular element is those comparison tools. It is part of our remit to provide that information to consumers. We are quite active in the financial education space.

Where there is an issue as to how banks interpret audit requirements and regulation around audit, and that interpretation is strictly beneficial for the bank but puts the customer at a disadvantage, can that be set out for the commission where it can decide whether or not to pursue it?

Mr. Brian McHugh

Again, that would depend on the example. The Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman has been dealing with individual complaints but as to whether banks have breached consumer protection matters, that would be a matter for the Central Bank. Again, the Central Bank has taken a number of cases right through to fining, as I understand it, with regard to the banks' actions and behaviours where they may have breached regulations.

That may necessarily be consumer protection but it might be an issue for the Central Bank and for another agency, such as the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, for example. The commission will judge that on the basis of the written complaint made to it and respond to it.

Mr. Brian McHugh

Yes, absolutely. In many cases, it would be the Central Bank which has the power with regard to consumer protection, and quite a number of powers as a regulatory body. It would often be far quicker and better with regard to the tools it has for the Central Bank to bring the matter to conclusion.

I have one final point to make which is the same question regarding Government procurement. Last week, we had a Department in here where it was explaining that the funding of the local State solicitor's office was €8 million. It does not go to audit or to tender. How does that fit in with the Office of Government Procurement's overview of what is being purchased by the State? Would the office look at how that process works, if it had discovered it, and whether or not an element should be put out for procurement?

Ms Anne Stewart

Certainly by the rules, it should be put out to procurement, out to tender.

Are they taking it from a framework that is already in place? Even then, however, it would be a mini competition that would be run off a framework. The Cathaoirleach mentioned it was a brand new office, a fit-out.

No, it is not. From what we were told, it is there. It is part of the Office of the DPP. I do not know if it is part of a framework. It read as being very odd to me so I am raising the question. If the OGP comes across that type of money being spent on what essentially is a procurement of services, can it take action? Can it advise that something should be going out to procurement?

Ms Anne Stewart

We would not have knowledge of it, unfortunately, until after the 40/02 report comes out, which is a year later. We have no regulatory governance over contracting authorities. If it were the case that they were doing something like that and were not bidding, it would be a huge concern, quite frankly. If it was a non-competitive tender, something like that would also be non-compliant, so there would be a huge issue there. However, there may be other things of which I would not be aware. It could be being pulled from a framework if it is not being set out.

If we raise these issues directly with the OGP, it would be-----

Ms Anne Stewart

If it is raised directly, we would be very happy to address it. If we were aware of it, we absolutely would address it directly with the contracting authority.

Okay. That is it. I thank the witnesses very much for coming before the committee and for going through all of that with us. It is a learning exercise on the State and how it oversees these things. I wish the witnesses well with their work. I thank them for their opening statements and responses. Unless they want to make any closing remarks, we will adjourn the meeting until Wednesday, 13 December.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.22 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 13 December 2023.
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