JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 4

Christian Aid Ireland: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the members of the delegation, Oisín Coghlan, policy officer for Christian Aid Ireland, Judeh Abdullah, Deputy Director of the Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees, Reverend Robert Herron, president of the Irish Council of Churches from Omagh and Constantine Dabbagh, director of the Gaza Strip programme of the Middle Eastern Council of Churches.

Christian Aid Ireland has been invited here to discuss its report on poverty among the Palestinians. The timing of the meeting was coincidental. The organisation wrote to us requesting a meeting, which we were happy to arrange at the earliest possible date, namely, today, which also happens to be the day on which the report was launched. Entitled, Losing Ground, Israel, Poverty and the Palestinians, the report was formally launched this morning by the Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development assistance and human rights, Deputy Kitt.

Before we commence the presentation I remind the meeting of the legal position. While members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I now invite Mr. Coghlan to begin the presentation. It will be followed by a question and answer session which will afford an opportunity for discourse and discussion.

Mr. Oisín Coghlan

I thank the committee for agreeing to meet us. We are very grateful for the opportunity to present the views expressed in and research gathered for our report, Losing Ground, Israel, Poverty and the Palestinians. I will briefly outline the aims and conclusions of the report. The principal opportunity arising from this meeting is to allow our partners, who work in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to inform the committee of the reality there, as they see it, and explain what people in Ireland and Europe can do about the situation. Reverend Robert Herron, president of the Irish Council of Churches, will then say a few words about his recent visit to the area with Christian Aid.

As with all our work, Christian Aid approaches the issue of Israel, poverty and the Palestinians, which the report covers, from a development and human rights perspective. We work with our partners in almost 60 countries throughout the world to expose the scandal of poverty, challenge its root causes and contribute to its eradication. In the case of the Middle East we have pursued these objectives with our Israeli and Palestinian partners for more than 50 years.

In recent years our sense has been that poverty among the Palestinians is getting worse, not better. Just as we do in many countries around the world when faced with the challenge of poverty, our response to this issue has been to consult our partners, commission research and produce a report to inform our policy, development practice and advocacy of solutions which, we hope, will make a lasting difference on the ground in the long-term.

The findings are stark. We are all used to seeing television images of violence from the Middle East. This report details another sort of violence below the headlines, namely, the dramatic plunge of ordinary Palestinians into extreme poverty and the creation during the past two years of a humanitarian crisis which has rendered long-term development work of the sort normally done by PARC virtually impossible. As well as being a Christian Aid partner, PARC is a long-standing partner of Ireland Aid and receives finance from the Irish Government through its overseas programme, which Mr. Abdullah will discuss.

In brief, some of our key findings are that three quarters of Palestinians in the occupied territories are now living on less than $2 a day, the official United Nations poverty line. Almost all Palestinians are worse off now than they were when the peace process began nearly ten years ago. The hoped for peace dividend has not materialised. Since 2000, when the current phase of the conflict started, key indicators of poverty have been getting worse. We found, for example, that malnutrition among the population has risen to almost 13%, anaemia among children under five years has risen to 20% and in the Gaza Strip the number of new mental health cases has doubled in the past two years. Having done the research for the report and spoken to our partners, which are both Israeli and Palestinian, we found that the main responsibility for the current humanitarian crisis rests principally with Israel's military occupation of the territories. Over the longer term the actions of the Israeli Government has created a situation of "de-development" through the systematic erosion of the basis for a viable Palestinian economy and society. One might have hoped the Oslo agreement would have made a difference but things have got worse.

We identified a number of key structures causing poverty, including the loss of land; the expansion of settlements; the control of water - about which I will make a few remarks later; and the closures and curfew restriction on movement. The lack of a strong and accountable self-government for the Palestinians must also be included. It is not only the Israelis who are to blame. The Palestinian Authority has not made poverty eradication its priority, which we note in the report. Our partners are best placed to inform the committee on the human dimension of these realities outlined in the report.

I wish to highlight the issue of water in regard to agriculture. Since 1967 Israel has tightened its control over water in the occupied territories. For example, before a well can be dug the permission of the Israelis is required. No new water sources are allowed for agricultural purposes. This is despite the fact that over half the wells that were functioning in 1967 are no longer in use. The Palestinian response has been to bring water into villages by truck, which is hampered by the restrictions on movement. This method also costs three times as much as it did a few years ago. They also use water tanks on their roofs, but from talking to people on the ground it appears the tanks are routinely shot at by Israelis, supposedly randomly in cross-fire but there is such a pattern that we conclude that it may not be so random.

This is having a major effect on agriculture, which is a cornerstone of the Palestinian economy. Agriculture accounted for 27% of Palestinian gross domestic product as recently as the run up to the Oslo peace process, but now it only constitutes 7% of GDP in the Palestinian territories. In the 1970s some 17% of the land was irrigated but now they can only irrigate 5%. Due to the trade restrictions imposed by the Israelis the value of agricultural exports fell by 30% in 2001. Because of the closures, which have meant that farmers do not have access to the land or do not have access to a market, agricultural earnings in 2001-02 fell by 70%. In Ireland we are aware of the important role that agriculture can play in the economy. It has played a key role in Palestine yet it is being undermined by the policies of the Israeli Government.

As has been said already, our conclusion is that it is the occupation that is responsible for the deepening poverty in Palestine. The Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories has been condemned by the United Nations. We affirm that the confiscation of land is in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects civilians and populations under occupation. The closures and curfews amount to collective punishment, which is forbidden by the same convention. The international community has failed to uphold the law which it has created and has failed to ensure a resolution to the conflict that would end the occupation it has condemned. If the international community is to tackle Palestinian poverty and allow Palestinians to tackle it themselves we need to do something to alleviate the current humanitarian crisis.

Israeli troops must withdraw to the positions they held two years ago before the current intifada. There should be an international presence on the ground to monitor human rights abuses on both sides and to allow humanitarian work to proceed unimpeded. We must also act now to create the economic foundations for sustainable development. At the very least there must be freedom of movement of goods, services and people within and between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank if people are to be able to trade and earn their way out of poverty. We must also move to dismantle the occupation and ensure a just and lasting peace between Israel and a future Palestinian state. The European Union, including Ireland, must specify what actions it is taking and will take to ensure Israeli compliance with international law, particularly the Fourth Geneva Convention.

The European Union also has a bilateral trade agreement with Israel, which offers it preferential access to our markets. The agreement contains a human rights clause and it is time we called on the European Union to review the agreement and its operation in respect of the human rights clause. If it is not being respected then the trade preferences should not be continued. The agreement provides for the suspension of the agreement when either party is in breach.

We welcome the Government's support for development in the Palestinian territories. There is a long-standing relationship with NGOs such as PARC, which is one of our partners, and also for the Palestinian Authority since the Oslo peace accord. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, announced today that he is to visit the area, which we also welcome. Perhaps there may be an opportunity for a parliamentary delegation at some time in the future. We would be willing to collaborate on that.

We urge the Irish Government and our legislators to seek every opportunity to influence the international community to ensure Israeli compliance with international law and to re-start negotiations for a settlement that would be just and lasting for both parties in the Middle East.

Judeh Abdullah from PARC will speak of his experience and how he sees the current situation.

Mr. Judeh Abdullah

I thank the committee for this opportunity to address it. Discussion of the Middle East region generally focuses on conflict, the elections in Israel or the situation in Iraq, but there is more going on in this region than the political events that get most media attention.

PARC is trying to adapt to the new situation in regard to the Israeli attacks against the Palestinians. Before the intifada we were using agricultural roads for getting to markets and so on. Now over a hundred clusters of villages are closed. They are also isolated from each other due to the Israeli policy of putting up checkpoints and not allowing the Palestinians to move.

Israel has been uprooting trees since the beginning of the intifada. More than 800,000 trees have been uprooted in the so-called shaving of the land. Everything is taken; trees, greenhouses, whatever is on the ground. They say it is for a security wall but it has nothing to do with security. They are talking about the annexation of more land and introducing more settlers to this area as well as controlling the underground water in the area. A farmer who has planted his crops no longer has access to it. He will become unemployed or will have some social or economic problems. The security wall will affect our future co-existence.

It is important for us to meet parliamentarians in Ireland and other places that are part of the democratic world where one standard is set for dealing with an issue instead of using double standards. We need assistance to apply the Geneva Convention or address the association agreement between Israel and the EU. The Palestinians believe that Europe can do much for it in this regard.

If the occupation is not ended the settlements will continue, as will land confiscation and the violation of human rights. This means the conflict will continue and a peaceful resolution will become impossible. We have confidence in the democratic world to play its part and to do it right now instead of waiting for years.

With regard to the election results, I predict that there will be another year of power for Sharon and then the government will fall. It does not have any political agenda. It is only worried about individual security for the Israelis. This individual security for the Israelis has the same implications as individual security for the Palestinians. Security for Israelis and Palestinians will come only from ending the occupation, which is the main source of insecurity and instability in the region. Occupation is the main problem and that is why we need some kind of international presence immediately, such as a UN presence, to see who is violating the rules and who is damaging the infrastructure of the people. This is what we recommend and we have to work on it together as NGOs, legislators, and governments to encourage co-operation and bring about a just and peaceful resolution to the conflict.

Mr. Constantine Dabbagh

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Middle Eastern Council of Churches and the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and Palestine in general. My colleague mentioned the position in the occupied territories and how we perceive it. If we take into consideration the isolation of the Gaza Strip, a very tiny place of about 350 square kilometres with an overly dense population of over 1.3 million people half of which is now under Israeli occupation, we are afforded an insight into the difficulties we have been confronting in the past two years. We have been subjected to severe controls in respect of movement from within and without the Gaza Strip, thus isolating the people from the West Bank, which is the other wing of the Palestinian autonomous areas.

The committee should note the difficulties the people are confronted with in respect of living conditions, health and the high rate of unemployment, which reached about 70%. As my colleague mentioned, the poverty rate in the Gaza Strip is over 82%. Three quarters of the people are refugees. Not only that, many houses are being destroyed in the area, meaning that refugees become refugees for the second time. The refugees involved are the grandchildren of the original refugees who came in 1948 to take refuge in Gaza.

I reiterate our demand and request to governments and parliaments all over the world, especially in Ireland, that there should be compliance with UN resolutions - which should be complied with in all cases - and to have a force to give us some protection because we are liable to have greater difficulties. If something happens in Iraq - God forbid it - then we are liable to endure harsher conditions, imposed by the Israeli occupying forces. We expect a volcano in the area in future, which we want to prevent by having reconciliation between the Israelis and Palestinians in both Palestine and Israel. Justice could prevail with the assistance of the international community and then we could have reconciliation and forgiveness between both countries.

Reverend Robert Herron

I am thankful for the opportunity to speak and I will be brief. I visited Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza just before Christmas. I visited about eight or ten projects, including the two referred to today. I saw professional, medical, agricultural, educational and cultural work being carried out, as well as work amongst children, rehabilitation work and human rights work, all of which impressed me very much. I also saw a community in which the Muslim and Christian worlds were co-operating and working well together.

I do not think one should underestimate how Ireland is viewed by the Palestinian community. My group consisted mainly of people from England and Wales and I was the only person from Ireland. I am probably the only Presbyterian minister with a picture of Bertie Ahern on his office wall, the reason being that, when I visited one of the projects in the Gaza Strip, I discovered Bertie Ahern had actually opened it. I was given a picture. It is sometimes the human stories that say so much. I met a human rights worker from Gaza who told me he visited Dublin and got a taxi from Dublin airport. As we know, our taxi drivers are a wealth of information about all sorts of things. When the taxi driver discovered the human rights worker was from Gaza, he was given a free trip. I have never had that privilege.

The messages I heard from the various projects were all the same. I heard that the situation was getting worse. There is poverty, malnutrition and despair. The Palestinian peoples cited many examples of injustices and I could see many with my own eyes. They all identified the occupation as the main cause of their predicament, yet acknowledged the weaknesses and shortcomings of the Palestinian Authority. They all accused the rest of the world, including the churches, of ignoring Israel's disregard for international law.

As I come from Northern Ireland, I was interested in peace-building attempts. The other issue in which I was interested was trauma work. Because of my Omagh connection, I have had a particular interest in that for the past four years. Some of the professional work carried out, particularly among children, is excellent. I visited a project in Bayt Sahur just outside Bethlehem and it was amazing to witness the work and the people who had been helped. I left that region of the world hearing the cry, "Please do something."

Chairman

Thank you for the presentation. We will have questions on it shortly. I welcome your report, which we have just received today. It is very comprehensive and it will be very helpful and informative. We are very happy to note that Ireland has contributed significantly. We established an office in Ramallah in 2000 and Ireland Aid is also working there. In total, €6 million was spent there last year in an effort to help.

The delegates have outlined clearly the problems involved, of which we are generally aware. They are the people working on the ground and it is particularly heartening that their work is continuing in the extremely difficult circumstances that now obtain. The aid from Ireland focuses on poverty, with an emphasis on humanitarian and emergency assistance. However, the core approach by Ireland has been associated with education, an area in which we are very much involved and anxious to assist.

We understand that Ireland Aid is currently reviewing its country programme in Palestine. It is expected that the focus will continue to remain on the basic needs and services and emergency funding. Perhaps the delegates might tell us how the Ireland Aid programme meets the needs of the Palestinian people as outlined in the report. We would like to know what more could be done.

Members of this committee visited the UN in New York before Christmas and we are very anxious to see a political solution in the region. We saw the road map agreement that was reached in Washington by the members of the so-called quartet, namely, the UN, EU, United States and Russia. We regarded that as being particularly important in attempting to revive the peace process in the Middle East. The Israeli election is being held today; hopefully the politicians on both sides can turn their attention to the negotiations. When we were at the UN, senior officials were very hopeful that the road map offered a way forward. We are hopeful that Prime Minister Sharon's recent remarks on the role of the quartet were made in the heat of the election campaign. We are used to things being said here in the heat of an election campaign.

There is a desire on the part of the Israelis that the US would be the principal component. The US is the leading outside player in the region and its contribution to the peace process is important and has already been invaluable. President Bush helpfully called for the creation of a Palestinian State. The UN and others also have important interests and have a major part to play. We hope everyone can come around the table. All the work Christian Aid is doing, and any work we try to do, is very seriously affected by what happens in that regard. I know people on both sides want to feel secure. If we can get a programme that accommodates a pathway to both peace and security we can start building a lasting peace.

I am saddened to see that irrigation has gone down from 17% to 5%. This is tragic; we know how crucial irrigation is to the development of output and production on the site. Greenhouses were mentioned during the presentation. At one time I was director of the Irish national programme for research and development in that area. I know a great deal can be done given the light and heat that is available.

We recently met the Palestinian delegate and have written a short note on the meeting. During the meeting, he suggested the committee should visit the area and I feel we should consider that. I am glad Christian Aid holds a similar view. As a committee, we have made this one of our priority areas. We want to help you in any way we can. While we recognise Ireland is a small country, we have long experience of difficulties but lately have experienced great growth and rapid development. The Israeli ambassador has requested a meeting and we intend to meet him shortly. We would like to follow-up each of these areas with Christian Aid.

Senator Norris

I found the Chairman's overview extremely helpful but I do not share his optimism. I have seen Mr. Sharon operate at close quarters. I think he is a disaster for Israel and has brought shame on the country. Mr. Bush, having described Sharon as a man of peace, defiles the English language. Mr. Sharon was found unfit to be defence minister by an Israeli commission and it beggars belief that he is fit to be prime minister of a democratic country.

The Reverend Herron said personal stories are important and I agree. I know Israel very well; I had a relationship there for 26 years but he formed a relationship two years ago with a Palestinian. I had not spoken to him for six months but when I spoke to him in the past couple of days I discovered he had been severely beaten by Jewish settlers because he, a Jew, went to protest at Hebron at the treatment of his Palestinian brothers.

If the violations outlined by the delegation are taking place they are a gross violation of human rights. The testimony of the fisherman who was illegally arrested while fishing legally in his area and detained and tortured for four months is appalling.

The Chairman spoke about his remarkable career in developing tomato crops. Imagine how heartbreaking it is for farmers to see their crops rotting on the ground due to interference with irrigation. These are appalling things. I have spoken as a friend of Israel for many years, but when it misbehaves it must be told so by its friends. These things strike me as a form of ethnic cleansing. It looks as if Israel is trying to drive people out by starving them or interfering with irrigation.

The committee should actively consider requesting that the Minister for Foreign Affairs examine the operation of the human rights elements of the association agreement with the European Union. We must make a protest when countries are in gross contravention of human rights protocols.

I had the honour of being asked to read the statement by Pastor Neimoller on Sunday at City Hall in Dublin. He was asked why nobody did anything. He replied that he said nothing when they came for the socialists and trade Unionists, he said nothing when they came for the Jews and when they came for him there was nobody left to say anything. We must speak out. One of the most moving images of the Holocaust, which I saw in Yad Vashem, is that of a six year old boy being targeted by the guns of the Gestapo. As someone who loves Israel, it gives me no pleasure to say I find it an astonishing irony that as we were making that dignified, moving and morally necessary commemoration of that appalling crime, a six year old boy was shot dead by Israeli soldiers in Gaza. Something has to be doneto stop this. It is grossly wrong and grossly immoral.

We are extraordinarily well represented by Isolde Moylan, the consul in Ramallah - I hope she is still there. She is a remarkable woman. I had a second home in Jerusalem for 26 years and I am aware of the way in which employment is being affected. We used to visit a friend who had a beautiful shop selling tapestries, carpets and so on in the old city, but he left 18 months ago. He had only made 30 dollars in the two months before I went to buy some things there. Harry Sandruni, who is an extremely gifted artist with a marvellous ceramics factory in the Armenian quarter, has transferred his skills and talents out of the old city to somewhere in the USA. We should do something about this dreadful situation rather than just talking. I will continue to lobby and to respect the Israeli-Jewish citizens like Ezra who protest against what is happening. I am aware of the impact of bombs on buses and so on - I would be afraid now to go to all the places I used to love. That is dreadful and barbarous and wrong, but the Israelis unfortunately fall into the trap every time, because these incidents are calculated to drive them towards the extreme right and to support Mr. Sharon. I do sympathise with the terror of the civilian population, however.

I propose that this committee requests the Minister for Foreign Affairs to examine what can be done in terms of triggering the human rights mechanisms of the Association Agreement with a view to asking the EU to suspend Israel. It is immoral to be giving favourable treatment when human rights are being treated so grossly in that part of the world. It breaks my heart to have to say this, but I formally propose it.

Deputy T. Dempsey

I support every sentiment so eloquently expressed by Senator Norris and, as someone new to politics, I find the daily images of the savagery perpetrated, particularly on the Palestinians, abhorrent. It seems to contravene every aspect of human rights with which I am familiar. As a politician I am not sure what we can do, because if I went public and said what I have just said I would probably reduce any effectiveness I would have as someone capable of seeing both sides. However, Christian Aid is not in the same position. I am not sure whether it has an office in America - it does not say on the back of the booklet——

Mr. Coghlan

No.

Deputy T. Dempsey

Christians are spread all over the world, and it is time they put pressure on their leaders. This is not meant as a criticism of what Christian Aid does, because I am responding positively to its impressive presentation and I will do anything I can as a result of this visit. They should make it known to the Christian leaders of the different denominations that they should speak to President Bush and to Mr. Blair, both of whom, I believe, are practising Christians, and tell them what is happening. The media must appreciate the savagery that is being perpetrated on the Palestinians. I am not excusing suicide bombers or anything else. The savagery seems to be balanced in favour of Israel - it would be the equivalent of the British Army invading Monaghan because of an IRA bomb. That could not be justified, and what Israel did yesterday in invading Gaza, for me as someone new to politics, cannot be justified either.

I appreciate Christian Aid speaking to us, but it is time it and the Christian churches started speaking to their Christian leaders. I go to church pretty often and I have yet to hear a minister or priest say that what is happening out there is unchristian. I recently heard people condemning the expropriation of land in an African state, but they have not condemned the expropriation of Palestinian farmland. The Israelis also seem to get away with ignoring the UN and any concept of international law.

Deputy Gregory

I thank the delegation for coming and I support everything it has said. I second Senator Norris's proposal. In the report, Losing Ground: Israel, Poverty and the Palestinians, it is stated:

Irish and other EU Governments [should] specify publicly the actions they are taking to ensure that Israel complies with the Geneva Conventions . . . The European Union should enforce all provisions within bilateral treaties with Israel, including human rights articles, such as the Association Agreement. It should consider suspension of such agreements in light of Israel's non-compliance.

It is a waste of time for anybody to talk to President Bush and the Palestinians cannot expect anything from Mr. Sharon other than what they have got already. It is a matter for ourselves, as a member of the EU, to take a stand on this issue. For that reason it would be worth while to prioritise the issue of Palestine, the non-compliance of Israel with international law and the treatment of Palestinians. I cannot speak with Senator Norris's eloquence, but there is no doubt that what is going on amounts to ethnic cleansing. That appears to be what Mr. Sharon and those who follow him have in mind.

The back cover of the report carries a quote from a farmer near Ramallah: "Often our water is not running and we have little to drink. Over the road, we see the sprinklers on the lawns of the Israeli settlements." It brings shame on all of us that we should not speak out against such appalling inhumanity to one's fellow man. We should treat this issue with the seriousness it requires. I am sure we have your support in that, Chairman. I formally second the motion.

Senator Leyden

I am delighted to be here to listen to Christian Aid and read the very good report. It is very important for Members of the Oireachtas to be informed of what is happening in Palestine in a fair way. We have a balanced approach as far as the issues are concerned, but the position has deteriorated somewhat since 11 September 2001. The world is concentrating on Iraq at the moment and the American Government is giving that issue priority. However, if the elections result in a stable government, whatever the composition, we can must rely on that government to enter into discussions again. There must be round-table discussions.

Palestine cries out for justice. The Israelis have a right to exist and prosper, and it is important that their position is made clear to the Palestinians, but not at the expense of a Palestinian state. There must be peaceful cohabitation in that small part of the world. Pressure must be put on the Israelis to sit down and negotiate, but we must make an appeal to those who would advocate suicide bombing as a method of bringing the Israelis to the negotiations to desist. There must be a full stop to this. A call should be made to stop the bombing and wait for a peaceful solution. It is resulting in an "eye for an eye" reaction from the Israelis - the old style of reaction into which people are trained. The public seems to appreciate that once a suicide bomb goes off, with young children killed to devastating effect, young children will then be killed in Palestine. The attack on Mr. Arafat's headquarters was pride for justice. At the very last minute before it was demolished, the Americans intervened.

I have met the Palestinian representative in Ireland, Mr. Ali Halimeh, and he has been very helpful in briefing us. We as an independent nation must use our influence in the UN to exert maximum pressure on the Israelis to enter into dialogue with the Palestinians to find a solution. We must put pressure on the Israelis to achieve that even if embargoes are needed because it will only react to international pressure. The members of the delegation must also use their influence in Palestine to inform the suicide bombers that they will never succeed in their actions.

Senator O’Rourke

It would be wrong to say I enjoyed the presentation because what was said was horrific and the contents of the report are very disturbing. We have all known about this for some time. What can be done to bring about a situation where people can begin to work with a sense of dignity and purpose for Palestine? We have become inured to the pictures of the young people who have died and the heartbreak and grief of their parents. There can be a three week lull and then another incident occurs in horrific circumstances. It is good for us to see this in the up-front manner shown by the delegation from Christian Aid.

The title of the report is correct because the Palestinians are losing ground in every sense - practical, physical and political. What can we do to use our influence internationally? We are a small, free country and a recognised sovereign State. All members of this committee would like to take practical steps to help and alleviate the great distress of people that we see every day. Ireland has long been a friend of Palestine and the people there. That is not saying that we are against everyone else. We do not support Palestine at Israel's expense but a person would need to be very hard not to be touched to the core of his being at the distress and misery occasioned to the Palestinian people. How do they get up every day, give up more ground and move somewhere else?

I do not mean to sound defeatist. We have been confronted with this and that is good for everyone because we must search within ourselves and think about it. I appreciate the delegation coming and we will read this document and seek more practical ways to be of help.

Senator Bradford

I apologise for missing most of the presentation but I am well aware of the work of the delegation. Of all the matters of international affairs in which I am interested, this is the issue where my loyalties are most confused. I agree with Senator O'Rourke that it is important that by expressing one set of views, we are not seen as automatically opposed to the other side. It is difficult to disagree with anything said by my colleagues.

The situation the Palestinian people face is shocking. They face a total denial of their human rights that cannot be justified under any circumstances. Looking at the situation faced by the Israelis, however, down through the generations, it is not difficult to see how a mindset can be created that makes progress difficult. We must be balanced in our approach, as the Government has been.

We have no military power but we have a reasonable degree of political influence at UN and EU levels. From our own experience we know what does not work, such as constant security responses to the most recent atrocity. Violence begets violence. The peace process in the Middle East, battered as it is at the moment, still provides a route map for progress and we must keep it at the centre of our concerns.

Suicide bombings must be condemned. We must express our opinion that they lead only to violence and nothing good can come of such behaviour. Neither can we ignore the fact that Palestinian people are being denied every normal human right on a daily basis and we should not apologise for making that view known to the Israeli authorities.

I wish we could come up with a succinct statement on the matter but that is impossible. We must recognise that we have mindsets on both sides that have been hurt and damaged by generations of hatred and violence. Progress will be slow but we must remain focused. The only way forward is for each side to recognise the other's right to exist and we should press for a return to dialogue.

After today's election things may improve. It is interesting that while it looked like it might be a one horse race, opinion polls suggested that if the opposition party was seen to have had a stronger candidate for Prime Minister, people would have responded. The people of Israel, by re-electing the Prime Minister, are not rejecting the peace process entirely, there was also a question of political personalities. We should not abandon all hope and say the Israeli people have rejected the peace process and want the current situation to continue.

I wish I could come up with a better assessment but we must be balanced. This is not a question of black and white: there are a thousand shades of grey.

Deputy D. Wallace

I thank the delegation for its presentation. Every second or third night we are given details of what is happening in the Middle East on our televisions and radios. What is going on there is unacceptable by the moral standards of any nation. We see the state responding with guns and tanks to people throwing stones, for which there is no justification. We are not here to take sides today. We want to make an impression and have some influence. Ireland does not have great power but it does enjoy respect.

The situation in the Middle East has deteriorated and I hope the election taking place at present will bring an end to the savagery of recent months. The violence was partly fuelled by a desire to influence the outcome of the election. Some effort can hopefully now be made on both sides to come together because the current situation cannot go on. It is amazing that only a few years ago, everybody thought there was a solution to the problem in the Middle East, but it is now worse than ever. We do not have the solutions here today but we will certainly play whatever part we can. Hopefully, some solution can be found. There are wrongs on both sides. A resolution will only be found when people realise that the only way forward is to work together.

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. I have just received a copy of their document and read at the testimonies of young children aged 14 to 16. If that does not move people towards a solution nothing will. We here will do whatever we can.

Chairman

There are a couple of points I would like to add. I am an optimist by nature and do not apologise for it. It is probably because I am a Christian.

Senator O’Rourke

We are all Christians of one kind or another.

Chairman

I am not saying that anybody else is not Christian, merely that my optimism probably stems from that. It is pointed out in The Economist this week that the polls continue to show a solid majority of Israeli Jews favour a settlement based on exchanging land for peace, dismantling many settlements, making room for an independent Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza and sharing Jerusalem. That is one ray of hope. During his recent campaign for his party's leadership, Mr. Sharon twice told the Likud central committee that he did not rule out the creation of an independent Palestine. He acknowledged that there was no purely military solution to terrorism. That is most important because once you acknowledge that you are bound to find and pursue an alternative path to peace. That is what we have to pursue once the elections are over.

President Arafat and his Fatah movement, Hamas and Islamic Jihad resumed talks in Cairo on 23 January. This process had run into difficulties before Christmas. Also, a ministerial-level meeting of the quartet - the EU, UN, US and Russia - was held in Washington on 20 December. The quartet meets again in February. It is significant that this takes place just after the election. The text of its agenda sets out the steps that must be taken by the Israelis and the Palestinians over a three-year period in the fields of security, economics and institution building. This is a very powerful quartet, and the best option in the short-term is that this body gets on with its peace proposals and we place as much emphasis as we can on its work.

Given what Senators and Deputies have said here, we should work out our own pathway for approaching this issue. It is an urgent issue and is one of our top priorities, and we want to work out a pathway to follow. In the meantime, it might be useful to ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to come to the committee to address some of the questions that have been raised. That should be done in a comprehensive way. Are there any points our guests wish to make at this stage?

Mr. Dabbagh

I wish to comment on the point made about Mr. Sharon's readiness to approve a Palestinian state. He is misleading the whole world because only 22% of Palestine has been returned to us, and this consists of the territories occupied on 5 June 1967. The Palestinian Authority, on behalf of the Palestinian liberation movement, has accepted the recognition of Israel within its borders. Palestinians are ready to establish our state within the 22% of land and Israel should evacuate the territories that were occupied illegally in 1967. Mr. Sharon has mislead the whole world because he is going to give our state undefined borders. What kind of state is that? There is no state with undefined borders except Israel. It is the only state on earth with undefined borders.

Now they want to turn highly populated Palestinian areas such as Gaza into a Swiss-style federation of cantons but with no control over their own borders, foreign policy or water. That is not a state but a continuation of Israeli occupation. It is not a peaceful solution because the same problems will recur again and again in the future. We want a lasting peace. We recognise the Israelis and their state within the pre-1967 borders. If they, in turn, recognise us then we will have to be good neighbours working together. This is the way to a lasting peace but Mr. Sharon is misleading the world. There is still an illegal occupation and UN resolutions are not being met. A Palestinian state should be established in accordance with UN resolutions. The Palestinians have made a great concession by accepting partition. No way, therefore, should we get anything less than full sovereignty over the 22% of Palestine occupied since 1967. A majority of Palestinians feel this would bring a just peace. It would give security to both sides and bring about reconciliation. Only this will compensate for the Israeli atrocities during the past 70 years. Otherwise the situation in the territories will escalate. The Israelis will continue to impose harsher measures, there will be more suffering, more Israelis and Palestinians will be killed and there will be no end to it. Before it is too late, before Europe and to the whole world have to shoulder guilt about a new holocaust in the area, there should be a move by Europe, by Ireland, by good people and good governments to seek peace in the region.

Chairman

What the UN is trying to achieve through the quartet road map approach has Ireland's full and active support. That is what we are giving you here at this committee support for the pathway towards peace which the UN is trying to promote. There may be further difficulties down the road but, now that the elections are over, we should concentrate on that process and follow it through because it is the only sane, sensible and real opportunity for developing a lasting peace.

Senator Norris

Thank you, Chairman, for agreeing to invite the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I very much welcome that. We could make it a particularly constructive meeting if we did a couple of things, because there is no point in the Minister coming in with an excellently prepared speech and just reading it to us. I suggest that if possible we should send a transcript of this meeting to the Minister, if it is available, so that his advisers can read it and hear the strong feelings of members, which were very balanced on all sides, and that we should pose him the specific question I asked, which is not a lot of waffle, and is something that was referred to by our distinguished representatives here, relating to the operation of certain clauses within the Association Agreement. If it can be demonstrated, as it has been, that there are violations of the human rights elements which were agreed as a necessary part of the Association Agreement, we should look at the possibility of asking the European Union to suspend that until the human rights elements are accorded with by the State of Israel. That is the principal thing. We should ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to examine that question and give us a response when he comes rather than coming to give us a lot of platitudes.

Chairman

There are two aspects to this. One is our consultation and discussion with the Minister. In the first instance, these proceedings are being televised now, but if we agree to publish them they will be published or printed within a week or ten days approximately. I take it we are agreed on that. However, we really must do our own homework. There will still be individual concerns. Because I was originally a scientist, I approach things comprehensively and follow each of the different elements. We need to do more than just tackle one or two of these. It is a very comprehensive problem. It has not run on so long for no reason. We know the complexities and have experienced them here, so let us put them together. We are talking about doing that in a matter of a few weeks. Let us pursue it from there and have the Minister in to meet with us in the meantime.

Senator Norris

I agree with your approach, Chairman. However, I would like to amplify it a bit. We are not tying the Minister's hands. My proposal, which was seconded, was that we should ask the Minister to examine this. These are the people who are suffering. They have come to us with a request. It is a fairly feeble request, to be honest, to ask him to examine it. I do not see that there will be the slightest difficulty about that. I would like to ask the support of my colleagues. If you are unwilling to do it, I am afraid I will have to ask for it to be put to a vote.

Deputy Gregory

I again second that proposal.

Senator O’Rourke

We are all in favour of that.

Chairman

We are all in favour of that. Nobody disagrees with it.

Senator Norris

That is good.

Chairman

Today's meeting is to give Christian Aid Ireland an opportunity to put its views here so that we can absorb them and be familiar with them.

Senator Norris

The letter to the Minister will ask him to examine this question.

Chairman

We have agreed to print today's proceedings so that the Minister will have the whole lot and we can highlight certain aspects to him. You can be quite certain the Minister will know by tomorrow what went on here today. We have very close contact.

Senator Norris

I am asking that he be asked specifically in the letter to examine it.

Chairman

Our visitors know also, and that is basically what they are talking about when addressing this committee. There is no problem with asking specifically that.

Senator Norris

I am very sorry. I am Christian but I am not a scientist. I do not want to cause confusion. As long as you guarantee that it will be put in the letter——

Chairman

We want to do something more than that. That is the point. We want to have a more comprehensive programme if we are to tackle this and pursue it. It means we cannot hop off to something else every other week. This must become a priority and we must pursue all the elements. That is the point.

Senator Leyden

The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, this morning committed himself to travel to Palestine to see things at first hand. The Department of Foreign Affairs is very well aware of the situation.

Chairman

Is there anything else you would like to say?

Deputy T. Dempsey

Has Christian Aid Ireland any plans to globalise the Christian input? Obviously many Christians voted for President Bush and many voted for Tony Blair. Is it not a good thing to put your presentation to your church leaders as Christian Aid Ireland, and are there any plans to do it?

Mr. Coghlan

Christian Aid works primarily in Britain and Ireland and we are engaging with church leaders here today at our launch and from now on. I hope it will be a topic that will be touched on more often in the churches around Ireland and Britain in the future. As part of APRODEV we work across Europe with other Protestant Church development organisations on a number of issues, including co-operating on this. Our report will be a significant contribution to the work of APRODEV to raise the issue at a European level. We do not have a presence in the US. How we can best bring that message to Christians there as well is certainly something we should look at.

Reverend Herron

May I comment briefly on this? This is on the agenda of the World Council of Churches. It has an accompaniment programme taking place at this moment in Holstein. I know it is on the agenda of the National Council of Churches in the United States. The Moderator of the Presbyterian Church USA this year is Palestinian. It is on the agenda of the church on an international basis.

Chairman

We also have the fact that the EU has taken a common approach and is participating through the quartet as well.

I thank the delegation for coming to meet us today. It has been very helpful to us in our deliberations. The committee really only got under way in November last and has had many things to deal with fairly urgently. This is one of the priorities, as we have said. I congratulate you on the work you are doing. Everybody here recognises the value of that work and we wish you every blessing in it. We will go there at some time in the near future. That would be the wish of the committee. We will establish our own pathway, if you like, and pursue the different aspects. Again, you have heard us discuss these here. It has been very stimulating for us, if sad in many of its aspects, but we must, as you must also, get over that and work for and find solutions. That is what we would like to do.

I thank the delegation for appearing before committee.

Mr. Coghlan

We are extremely glad of the opportunity and thank you for your time and commitment to the issue.

The joint committee adjourned at 3 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 4 February 2003.