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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 13 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 17

Humanitarian Crisis in Ethiopia: Presentations.

Regarding the humanitarian crisis in Ethiopia, on its establishment the committee made that country a priority. Ethiopia is a priority country for Ireland Aid and the Government has generously committed a good deal of funding to the area in the form of development co-operation. This aid has been expanded to include humanitarian assistance in response to the crisis there. The total allocated this year is €29.3 million. This is a continuation of the ongoing discussions the joint committee has had on Ethiopia, which was selected by the committee as a priority with the intention of ensuring special attention would be paid to this extremely vulnerable country. We agreed to examine the various aspects of the disaster and to attempt to identify the principal areas where more help would be beneficial. This is the third tranche of our deliberations on the situation in Ethiopia. The first was when we heard from the NGOs working in the region - Concern, Goal, Trócaire, Christian Aid, Oxfam and Self-Help Development International. They gave the joint committee an excellent overview of the crisis in Ethiopia and the good work they are carrying out to relieve the terrible situation there. Their work, while obviously limited to a number of small areas in the region, makes a valuable contribution and shows what can be done through committed people using effective aid.

In the second part of our discussions we heard from members of an Oireachtas delegation who visited the area recently. Senator Henry, Deputy Fiona O'Malley and Ms Catherine Heaney gave a disturbing report on the awful conditions being experienced by the Ethiopian population, particularly women and children. As in many other parts of the developing world, particularly the poorest areas, religious orders perform exceptional and heroic work in these extraordinary and dreadful circumstances. At times we, caught up with the minutiae of the moment, forget that our religious orders have been carrying out heroic work in the poorest countries in the world for generations.

Over the years I have met many people, now in high places in developing countries, who recognise the major contribution the religious have made so unselfishly to their peoples and countries. Acknowledging their contributions and recognising that their views are important in identifying the areas which need to be tackled, the committee has asked the representatives of the Irish religious orders working in the region to come before us to inform us of the magnitude of the crisis and to give us their valued judgment on what needs to be done to further help the situation in the region.

Appearing before us today will be Sr. Isabelle Smyth of the Medical Missionaries of Mary, Sr. Anne Fitzgerald of the Daughters of Charity and Fr. Martin Kelly and Fr. Paddy Moran of the Holy Ghost Missionaries. We also have Sr. Mary Ryan and Sr. Ailish Kinnane of the Good Shepherd Sisters. Each presentation will take approximately ten minutes and following the presentations there will be a question and answer session. I remind the meeting that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. Therefore, if someone wishes to say something nasty about their neighbour, do not do it here.

Sr. Isabelle Smyth

It is a great privilege to be invited here and the Medical Missionaries of Mary are grateful to the Chairman and the committee. I am not an expert on Ethiopia and anything I tell the committee I heard from Addis Ababa since Thursday evening last, when I was invited to the committee. This is the latest information by e-mail or telephone. I even got some e-mails this morning which I did not have time to read and they represent the very latest information. I put them on a CD which I will leave with the committee. They came from the Catholic Secretariat's disaster preparedness committee and include the April report as well as projections on the crisis. The information there will be of interest.

The Medical Missionaries of Mary have been in Ethiopia for the last 42 years. In the 1960s and 1970s our specific emphasis was on the control of Hansen's disease. From 1969, in all our work in 12 developing countries, we have shifted towards community-based preventative care rather than hospital-based curative care. We are particularly concerned with holistic healing, prevention of illness and development issues, particularly the development of women.

In Ethiopia we have always had a rather small presence but an effective one. We have ten sisters there at present, five of whom are Irish; there are also two Tanzanians, two Americans and one English sister. We believe in living interculturally and internationally as a witness to the oneness of the human family. We see this as a message regarding the acceptance of intercultural diversity, which is not always easy but is a great enrichment.

The notes we have distributed detail our involvement in Ethiopia. In the south, among the Borana people, we have an integrated health programme at Dadim. The notes specify the programme, which includes a water programme drilling boreholes. Fr. Martin knows this area very well and will have something to say about it. We have five sisters in the Borana zone.

In Addis Ababa we have a comprehensive AIDS-HIV counselling and social service centre. We work closely with the hospice care which is also provided both by Sr. Fitzgerald's congregation and the sisters of Mother Teresa of Calcutta, who provide terminal care for those with HIV-AIDS. Our work relates more to education for prevention, helping the social dimension of those with AIDS-HIV, testing, giving pre-test and post-test counselling and a massive amount of popular education, which is done through very creative means, such as puppets and street theatre involving peer to peer education through drama. It is very impressive to see the creativity African people bring to this type of health education. Two sisters run this service in Addis Ababa and they have a local staff of 40 who are extremely professional and dedicated. I visited this project a couple of years ago and it is a model of its kind. It is a state of the art facility with cost-effective management. There are non-HIV activities there and, more recently, a laboratory for testing HIV and general laboratory services has been provided.

The final commitment we have in Ethiopia is at a hospital called St. Luke's Catholic Hospital and College of Nursing at a place called Wolisso in west Shoa, where we have an English sister, who is a surgeon, and an Irish sister, who is a nurse tutor. Another nurse tutor will join her at the end of this year. This hospital is run jointly by members of several different religious communities and nationalities and is funded largely by an Italian lay organisation called CUAMM.

I move now to the current humanitarian crisis. I have been told that 12.25 million people in Ethiopia are currently in need of emergency food distribution. Recent indications show that this figure could rise to 12.5 million in the coming months. That information was given to me yesterday by Gerhard Ritter, who is the disaster preparedness and technical adviser seconded by Caritas Germany to the Ethiopian Catholic Secretariat. As members probably know, agencies which represent the Catholic church are networked in Caritas. At present, Caritas Germany is the lead agency and this man, Gerhard Ritter, gave me these figures. He told me €3 million has been pledged through the Caritas network for operations ending in July of this year and have been allocated in four dioceses which are mentioned in the report. I understand from my colleague, Sr. Maria Goretti O'Connor, who is adviser to the health desk in the Catholic Secretariat in Addis Ababa, that seven of the nine dioceses in Ethiopia are in need of humanitarian relief, that is, in need of food. The Caritas network is asking for further moneys to support this programme up to the end of the current year.

We are not giving hand outs. People are engaged in a very creative way in work such as soil and water conservation services, road maintenance and rehabilitation. These schemes employ 8,200 people directly. I have been told that the Caritas network met last week at the Catholic Secretariat and members of the Ethiopian Government were invited to come and to explain and justify the need for further aid. The Caritas representatives world-wide gave the Ethiopian Government quite a gruelling session. They did not give any hand outs and they were keen to attach certain stipulations, even though the Ethiopian Government, no more than our own, does not want to be told by anybody how to run its country. However, that does not mean one cannot make recommendations when providing aid.

I will finish by outlining the priority they specified when I asked them for input in regard to what they would like me to put before the committee. They clearly said that the priority is for supplementary feeding and not general rations. They are very concerned about mothers and children not receiving a balanced diet and they believe that if further moneys are to be made available, the Government should recommend or stipulate that the moneys be used for supplementary feeding, that is, high protein and specially evolved food supplements which are different from the ordinary general rations which would form part of the relief programme. They also asked me to say that while they are very concerned about Iraq - we have a colleague reporting to us from Baghdad in very heartrending terms - they ask that any moneys made available for emergency relief in Iraq do not draw from the budgets already envisaged for aid to other countries, including Ethiopia.

I have not worked in Ethiopia but rather in Tanzania and Brazil. I have seen poverty in the favelas on the periphery of Sao Paolo, in places like Amokoko and Ajegunle in Nigeria, in Dar es Salaam and in the Collines of Rwanda. I was hardly ever as moved as when I visited Dadim in the south of Ethiopia which the two Spiritan priests with me know quite well. I was taken on a trip one Sunday to the Singing Wells of Doqolle where I watched the herds being corralled. The animals might be left standing for hours before they get near the watering hole. That is after the pasturalists, who own these animals, have waited for hours for food distribution. When one reaches the watering hole, the Singing Wells of Doqolle, the water table may be so low that 20 men have to stand on each other's shoulders to lift up the water in jerrycans of perhaps ten litres. They clutch on to the side of the hole in an act of gymnastics which one would not see in a circus and they sing as they bring up the jerrycans. It is a sight which one would never forget. If we can provide money to drill more holes, as we tried to do in the areas where we have mobile health clinics, it would be money well spent. The Catholic Secretariat has two drills which are available to agencies working within the church.

We are deeply grateful for the opportunity to make this presentation and we hope the committee will be able to join us in making a difference.

Thank you, Sr. Smyth. I call Sr. Kennedy from the Daughters of Charity.

Sr. Anna Kennedy

Chairman and members of the committee, I express my thanks on behalf of our sisters in Ethiopia for giving me this opportunity to speak to you today. I acknowledge with thanks the Government's support of our efforts to date. I speak as someone who worked in Mekelle only for a short period. The Daughters of Charity have been in Ethiopia since 1927 where we strive to work with the most vulnerable. In an effort to ensure that these services continue into the future, a noviciate was opened almost 30 years ago. Today, there are eight Irish and English sisters working alongside our Ethiopian sisters who number 56. Our aim is to work with the most vulnerable in an effort to improve their quality of life. This has led us to become involved in a wide range of services throughout Ethiopia.

At present we live and work in 13 locations, three in the northern region, three in the western region, four in Addis Ababa and three in the southern region. Our experience has been that without church clinics, it is almost impossible for the poor to access health care. We have five general clinics with outreach stations, all equipped with laboratories. As well as diagnosing and treating diseases, we strive, through health education, to improve and maintain the general health of the people.

One of our Irish sisters runs an eye clinic where she performs surgery on people with trachoma, thereby preventing blindness. Rehabilitation for people with polio, leprosy and a variety of handicaps has facilitated them to become more independent and some earn a living using the skills they have acquired. Care of the elderly is part of our health care programme. Another area of concern is the growing number of people with HIV/AIDS. It is believed that in most parts of the country 35% are affected. Our sisters and clinic staff visit some of the families on a regular basis, supporting, counselling and treating their systems. Many of these people live in isolation because of the stigma which surrounds being HIV positive and having AIDS.

Associated with AIDS is a large number of children who are orphaned. We take care of these until they can be placed with relatives or adopted. Part of our care of children is the vaccination and nutrition programmes. We have five feeding programmes for children up to the age of ten. These children attend daily from Monday to Friday. Without this programme many more children would die daily.

Health education is very much part of this programme - education on adequate nutrition and the preparation and growing of foods; and education on disease prevention as well as personal and environmental hygiene. We have one centre for street children in Mekelle. Some 121 children are cared for there. We appreciate that without education people will always live in poverty and in an effort to break this cycle, we have five nursery schools, two primary schools, one secondary school, one commercial school, one agricultural school and one third level Montessori teacher training college.

In three areas we provide hostel accommodation for school girls. The social care of the people we work with is very much part of our overall care. We have eight women development programmes. These are training centres where women participate in a variety of courses and learn skills which can improve their quality of life and that of their families. Most of the women who follow this programme become aware of their own strengths and their ability to change their condition. It also helps them to find employment and to become more independent. Another programme is urban development. Included in this is social and community development, an engineering department which takes responsibility for building, repairing homes, providing water points and building latrines.

As to the future, our first concern is responding to the effects of the current famine. Unlike during the famine of 1984 and 1985, the church's support is not openly accepted. Therefore, our sisters work discreetly in providing food and medical care for the most needy. During the 1984 and 1985 famine, they were supported by international organisations who provided treatment shelters and clinics. Also, extra personnel arrived from overseas. The burden was shared by many, but this is not our experience today. Our concern is that money allocated for famine relief presently may not be directed to those who are in most need. Our sisters are responsible for the money which has been donated for the support of our current programmes. All this money is used directly for providing the services I briefly outlined.

New guidelines from the Department of Health and Children, requesting changes in our clinics, are difficult for our sisters to meet and have led to the closure of some of our clinics. This has saddened our sisters, as those who suffer most as a result are the poor. The street children's project may have to be discontinued due to lack of funds. This is causing great concern. At present there are 113 boys and eight girls involved. Up to now a group from Scotland made a three year commitment to finance this project, which ended in 2001. Now its only source of income is the occasional private donation, which is unreliable.

The Montessori training college is also threatened due to reduced funding. This college caters for 35 students from different areas of Ethiopia. It is a two year programme - one year of in-service training and one year of supervised teaching. One can imagine the ripple effect of this quality training on future generations of young people. CAFOD, which supported this programme in the past, has now discontinued financing it.

Our future plan is to maintain and develop current works as these make a difference to the lives of many people and also to respond to the current famine situation. In terms of the effects of the famine at the moment, recent rains leading to flooding have resulted in many deaths and in 8,000 people being displaced. Sr. Isabelle already talked about the number of people who are literally starving at the moment so I will not go into that.

We receive our funding for our current programmes from international charitable organisations, the Government, private individuals and group donations. An example of this is the people of the parish of Finglas west who this year gave us €21,500 as a result of their Christmas fast. We also received money from the Daughters of Charity in Ireland and England. I thank committee members for their interest and I hope that some of the details I have shared will help them understand something of the reality in Ethiopia, especially for the most vulnerable.

I worked in Ethiopia for 18 years and came back to Ireland in 1995. I have been back there twice, including a one month visit in August 2002, so I know the place very well although I may not be very well up to date with some of the more recent events. My colleague, Fr. Paddy Moran, worked in Ethiopia from 1996 to 1998 as a student and has been re-appointed there. He is waiting for his visa to get back. He hopes to get back there in June.

Like other speakers I thank the committee for inviting us here. We appreciate it very much. I also thank the Government for the support it has given us over the years, particularly through APSO. Some really depend on that for their daily bread. I also thank the Irish embassy in Addis Ababa for its support, particularly the chargé d’affaires, Pauline Conway, who has visited our work and supported it. She is very highly respected. I invite committee members, if they ever get the chance, to visit Ethiopia because I think they would find it a unique and enriching experience.

At present there are two Irish Holy Ghost missionaries working in Ethiopia, including one in the south west. At the back of the handout, there is a map and we are down at the very south-west bordering on Sudan and Kenya. It was known for many years as the forgotten province - a little bit of the béal bocht I think.

We moved there in 1972 and over the next ten years a particular approach was developed based on a decision that was made very early on that we would work within local structures. If a school existed in a town we would not build a mission school. If a clinic existed we would not build a mission clinic and so on. We would support the structures that were already there. We still follow that policy today. Sr. Isabelle's sisters, who worked with us for many years, worked through the ministry of health primarily in health care, but not having our own structures.

We have two Irish Spiritans, as I said, one working in the capital, Addis Ababa, and one working in the south. We have two French Spiritans doing the same. In the other area mentioned by Sr. Smyth we have one American, two Dutch, three Nigerians and one Kenyan. The area about which I am speaking is in the south-west.

Over the first ten years we were there each mission was working on its own, doing the best it could. Then around 1982 there was a consortium formed and we had an integrated, developed programme, again working through local structures and this continued for about 15 years. In 1997 and 1998 there was a reorientation and the conclusion was that the programme was much too extensive. It was trying to cover too much ground and perhaps also rendering too much service. So there was a reorientation to concentrating on very specific communities and a process whereby, rather than providing a service, we would empower the community to get on its feet so that it could look after itself. That is the programme in existence at the moment.

The first page of the handout shows a one-page summary to which we will return at the end. The other three or four pages give a summary of the overall project. We have two groups as shown on the map in South Omo and Gamo Gofa. Those two groups work independently but together. At the moment they are responsible for nine communities with a target population of about 84,000 people spread over quite long distances, with particular implications for travelling although less so than before. There is a staff of 66 involved in the programme.

On the second last page there is what is called an organogram, which is a plan showing the organisation of the thing. The shaded section shows the integrated community development programme of Gamo Gofa and of South Omo. There are at present seven project areas. Members can see the workers, the community facilitators and that type of thing and the areas in which they work. The first one on the left is the Arba Minch urban dwellers association. This represents a very poor part of the town of Arba Minch, which has about 40,000 people. There they concentrate on women in development, gender and development and a social programme.

The next area is Zegitti Merche which is up in the highlands. There they have three facilitators working on natural resources management - agriculture, preventing erosion and that type of thing, primary health care and women in development and gender and development. There are similar programmes across the seven areas.

The community-based primary health care, which is the first item on page two, works through the local structures with the ministry of health. It encompasses the following major components: health education; providing supplementary food where necessary; safe water supply and basic sanitation; maternal and child health and family planning; control of epidemic disease; treatment of injury and illnesses; provision of essential drugs; and awareness raising. All of this is done within the local structures but also in a way in which the local people will be able to continue it without us within a few years.

In the water development programme, previously we dug a lot of wells, we bored some and protected springs, but the emphasis now is to enable the people to do it themselves. It is on a much smaller scale, but I hope it will last longer.

In some areas there are marginalized groups such as tanners, blacksmiths and potters. A certain amount of work has gone on there to bring them more into the community, to reduce the prejudice against them and get them more involved in the market network so that they can get a better income and be involved in the social life and the decision making of the community. They have been very happy with the progress made with that in the past three years.

The same is true for the women's empowerment programme. In many communities in Ethiopia, the women have a very heavy workload with very little influence in terms of making decisions in society and often in the home. A lot of work has gone into this in terms of sensitisation and also to get them involved in the programmes we are running. If there is a water committee, they would have a certain membership on that. The details of this, I do not know much about, because I was not involved in it.

Number five is interesting because it is the question of a small amount of funds being set aside for programmes which the community decides it wants. However, it is done in a way in which the community comes up with the suggestion and then it goes to the Government where it is discussed and the funds are allocated. There was a lot of difficulty with this because local government never really came across this type of experience before. Sometimes it may be a meeting hall that the community decides it needs, at other times it might be a grinding mill or something like that. One would be talking about small sums of maybe $2,000 or €3,000, but they could make a massive contribution there.

Number six is interesting also because it deals with an area, Dimeka, in which Fr. Moran worked and where they have a non-formal education. Quite often there was a school there with one teacher and one student. There was one teacher for each class and one student and maybe no student. Obviously local semi-nomadic or nomadic people were not taking to formal education. This is an attempt to get them involved in non-formal education where they need it. It may simply be helping them to count or read so that when they go to market they will not be cheated by the weighing scales or something like that, and then to expand on that and take it up to what they call functional adult literacy. They have specific targets. This has been very successful and is to be expanded in the next few years.

With agriculture and natural resource management there is a huge problem with erosion which is increasing by the year. I was away for five years and when I came back I was astounded. In some cases there were improvements but in other cases things had become drastically worse. There was more pressure on the land and people were moving further up the hillsides to cultivate. When the rains came this was all washed away. This project aims to preserve the natural resources. I mentioned the organogram but I do not know much about it. However, people are happy with its progress.

The present situation is unique because some parts of the country are enduring massive famine and drought but we are dealing with a small area in the south-west where flooding is the problem, and we have a small drilling machine, the size of a small truck. Recently it had to drill down 80 metres but no water was found, and that night the machine was washed away in a flash flood. Many crops have been damaged, such as maize and potatoes, as well as roads and bridges, so huge damage has also been done to the infrastructure. It is as serious as drought because of the food shortages. Assessments have to be done to establish whether people need food or finance for reseeding and replanting.

Our programme is funded for three years to the cost of €1.5 million. It is half funded by the European Union and half funded by funding agencies, particularly from Austria but also from Holland, Germany and Ireland. The EU, as a big bureaucracy, is slow to make decisions, so if the committee has any influence in making the EU office responsible for speeding up its decisions we would appreciate it very much. There may be a future need for seed money where flooding has taken place but we do not know yet. That will depend on assessments. If there is ever any spare money it would be appreciated for transport needs.

Sr. Mary Ryan

I am not blaming anyone for the short notice but I had very little time to prepare anything for the committee on my experience of Ethiopia. I arrived in Ethiopia in November 1974, the first of a group of Good Shepherd sisters who had to begin from scratch. That was when Mengistu was settling in as a Marxist dictator for 17 years, so it was not a nice way to start but we made the most of it. We went to help women and children, in particular those women who were being put down in every way possible. There was no work for women and there was no way a single woman could bring up a family. There were no social services of any kind either.

Mengistu came to power at a time when the mystique of Haile Selassie was damaged by a famine that raged from 1972 to 1975. They often called that the hidden famine because though he was not able to cope with it, he did not reveal it so the world could rally round and help. The famine was very advanced when help came and that was when the army, with Mengistu at his head, created a military regime based on Marxist philosophy. That famine was resolved by 1975 with some good rainy seasons, so we got to work.

I retired from Ethiopia last June. By then I had heard rumours and fears of another famine, which is now raging there. In between I experienced the great famine of 1983-85 which other speakers have described so feelingly, the famine which brought Bob Geldof to the screens of the world. That was a terrible time. People ask me why there are so many famines and why something is not done. In 30 years we went from famine to a Marxist-sponsored "villageisation" programme which gathered farmers into villages from which they had to travel out to faraway farms as happened in Russia. That did not help the production of food. There was another famine, war and ethnic strife which, after the Mengistu regime, seemed to be one way of controlling the country. Different ethnic groups were given leeway in this approach but it has not worked very well. Eritrea is taking the route of freedom for its 3.5 million people which has led to trouble that now seems to be petering out. The World Bank then took over and tried to restructure the economy of Ethiopia. I am not sure that helped much either.

Therefore, it is all very well to ask why these people do not do something but they need massive help to get out of their present situation. That is what we saw 30 years ago and what everybody who has been there knows. The poverty is very bad; one speaker compared it to other areas where she had seen great poverty and I have met members of our order who say: "You have never seen anything like the poverty in our mission." However, if one could measure poverty, the poverty in Ethiopia is heartbreaking.

The climate is one factor. Much of the country is a very high plateau with fertile areas - there are some fertile areas in the lower regions also - which is the easiest to develop. There is a lack of rain, as Ethiopia is sub-Saharan in some ways, and the geography of the area affects the country - one would not need a whole book to explain that. One sometimes sees wonderful crops on one side of the mountain while the other side of it is pure desert. We drive from Addis Ababa 300 kilometres south to where we have a country-wide project. We drive through scenes of magnificent prosperity, of beautiful crops and of lots of hope but then one enters an area a few miles on and one asks how can anybody do anything with it because the erosion along a river bank and on hillsides is frightening. Hillsides, if terraced, could produce crops. Coffee is the main crop but the price has reached rock bottom. People depended on the coffee bonanza each year but that is no longer possible. One could list the causes of the poverty and hunger for hours but that will not remedy them.

What are the Good Shepherd sisters doing about it? We have been there since 1974-5. My first reaction when I went there was that we must do something for the poor women so they would not have to carry these huge burdens on their backs day and night bringing fuel down from the hillsides to the cities to sell it. They carry loads of fuel wood on their backs which donkeys would probably refuse to carry. The children help out in the same way. Water must also be carried, sometimes for miles, even on the edges of the city because the city water supply is very limited, although it has improved a little. These were the things we could see and we were free to start at whatever point we could.

Income generation seemed to be a must because there were many women bringing up families on their own. There was no way family life could be established along the lines of a western system because men had no work. There was almost no employment. Fellows who got into the army were lucky in that at least they had a small pay cheque and the hope of a pension when they retired. People strayed into the cities looking for food during the famines which enhanced the city population but did nothing for jobs. There is still no manufacturing base or thriving economy which is what we really need to start so that people can have a life. We tried to get income generation projects started and we succeeded reasonably well.

We trained a large number of girls for work, helped them with education and got them to go to school. We let them train or work part time so they could go to school in their free time to try to raise their level of education. We took in children, especially small, pre-school children, and we devised a system of day care centres in which a mother could leave her child during working hours so they could go to work close by. The health of the child was taken care of, which was almost always necessary. I saw children of two and half years of age who were not able to stand on their little legs. They were dying to run around like other children. Malnourishment was considerable and many children died before the age of five. I think the mortality rate is one of the highest in the world. We gave them a meal during the day, played with them and tried to improve their health and general condition as far as possible until they were old enough to do a little pre-school learning. They were taught and given a good foundation for entering the public school system at six years of age. We helped them through that by providing whatever they needed in the line of books and so on. We made some small mark by giving a head start to those very poor children.

In recent years, we have become involved in credit and savings schemes. That is working reasonably well. It is explained very carefully to people and they know what they are getting into. People save a little bit - although from what God knows - and they take out tiny loans. Using the loan one woman will buy a sheep - hopefully one already in lamb so she will have a second one during the year - while another woman might invest in a goat or will buy some cotton to spin it and then get a weaver to weave something from it which can be sold. These are the simplest and most basic things but people are beginning to realise they can do something, which is the great hope, and they are becoming more interested. People pay back their little contributions because they know if they do not, that is it and they will not get a second chance. Meanwhile, we help the women's children and try to assist them so they will be able to go to school and improve. We try to build up the children's health at the same time because that is vital. That is the urban, or Addis Ababa, contribution.

Since 1994, we have a station some 320 kilometres outside Addis Ababa in the south-west. Life is very different there. The sisters live in a village called Masseria and close by they have built a training centre with the help of an Austrian Caritas group. Before I left Ethiopia last summer, I went to the first anniversary of its opening. It was marvellous to see people get presentations for what they had done in the first year. A lot of people were involved and they also help groups sent by the Government services. It is hoped that eventually it will be a good local training programme where young people can go in the hope of eventually getting a job out of it. They work very closely with the local authorities there. Of course, they come under the new Government system. During the more recent small famines in that area - and it is a famine-prone area - we watched the sisters develop a system with the local people for distribution of food. Sometimes food comes in the form of huge quantities of aid but it is either pilfered or destroyed because there is no place to store it. We have got a good system working of storage and distribution on a name basis, naming the houses in that parish or area and having them all come along and take their ration. The people give some help in return so they are not seen to be just beggars.

The pride of Ethiopians is often commented upon by writers who have spoken about the country and it is true. They have tremendous self-esteem and self-consciousness. That is a good thing and one does not want to see it broken down. These people can rightly stand tall. They have a great tradition behind them and it would be one of the tragedies of the world if the Ethiopian past is ever forgotten or disappears. They have clung to the Orthodox Church, and however we might like to move this situation along, it is their strong bastion of support. To see the crowds that attend religious services makes us proud of our own Christian heritage.

Raising international awareness of Ethiopia's problems is essential. We are asked what can be done to help, and I mentioned to somebody that Ireland could make a great contribution by pushing the EU towards more involvement in Ethiopia and all over Africa. Somebody has to do something about Africa, and who should do it if not Europe? We would only be giving back to the world what we have taken from it.

If any of our representatives in Europe, from Mr. Cox downwards, can do anything to help to spur Europe to forget about itself and see what it can do about Africa, it would be a tremendous contribution. I must not finish without saying that Ireland's own contribution is very good. When I went out there 30 years ago most people were not quite sure where Ireland was. They vaguely thought of it as part of England but then they heard all these reports about Northern Ireland, southern Ireland and England and it became confused. There was very little understanding of where we came from. Now, however, one has only to mention Ireland and people think of Ireland Aid. The country is really on the map, for which we thank God. It is a good thing.

Fr. Moran mentioned Pauline Conway - she is not the ambassador but I hope she will be - the lady who runs the show out there. She is a great lady. She does not fit the image of a lady ambassador. She is just a good, hard working official who does a great job and the committee would be proud of her. Ireland Aid has an education programme sponsoring young people, which is of tremendous benefit to the country so long as the beneficiaries go back to the country. It is important that anybody who comes out of the country should be encouraged to go back and contribute.

We have seen in the past few years that many young people who have been educated abroad or went abroad as refugees during the Marxist regime - which hounded young people - came back after discovering that there was freedom at home and have tried to set up practices as doctors, teachers and so on. It is very difficult for them. Take a young doctor who has been working for five years in the United States and tries to come back to set up his own practice in Ethiopia. It is extremely difficult, and these are areas in which countries could help by somehow making it possible for such people to get medical equipment, allowing them to purchase it and pay for it on an on-going basis.

Everybody could give their list of things that could help the situation in Ethiopia——

We will have questions, sister, so if you would like to——

Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity of having our say.

I first of all join with you, Chairman, in welcoming the presentations and expressing our appreciation for the great humanitarian and spiritual work being done in Ethiopia and other places by the Catholic Church. We meet regularly with NGOs but we do not get enough opportunity to meet with the Catholic Church. This is a great opportunity to meet somebody who has given 30 years of her life to one particular province, and a lot of the otherspeakers have devoted themselves in the same way.

I am glad that Senator Kitt is here because he is now chairman of our sub-committee on development aid. I wish to say something specifically about the role of the European Union. It struck me very much while listening to the presentations that a lot of what we do in the area of local development partnerships in inner city Dublin and the disadvantaged areas of the country generally may be relevant here. I suppose Ethiopia would be a long way behind but what we have eventually arrived at is involving people in partnership before they eventually take over the running of schemes themselves in their own communities. It is quite extraordinary to see over the years how people have become empowered, particularly women, in inner city Dublin and how confident and able they are to take on responsibilities and then lead the agenda for people like us. This is an interesting development that has taken place here and I do not know whether Sr. Ryan will have been aware of much of this while she has been away.

To some extent, when one is out of view one is out of mind. It strikes me that the only ways we can find about what happens in Ethiopia is by our guests coming here or us going there. It is a terrible pity we cannot develop some sort of communications whereby we can have a presentation to this committee from Ethiopia so that we can actually see what is happening on the ground. In this era of modern communications that is not as difficult as it seems. RTE could present the war as it happened in Iraq so it is a pity we cannot have a communications system that would allow us to talk to our guests in Ethiopia in order to find out what things are like there and perhaps to witness the wells that were spoken of. It certainly was a great visual presentation.

I wonder if we could hear something about AIDS, Chairman, and find out whether it has levelled off or whether it is still on the increase. I want to impart some information, if I may. Before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs was set up the Joint Committee on European Affairs, which I chair, was set up. We set up a group under David Begg, the secretary general of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and former chief executive of Concern, which also involved Dr. Garret FitzGerald, Noel Dorr, David Andrews and Bríd Rosney. It was a very powerful group. We asked it to present a report on what Ireland's priorities should be as President of the European Union from 1 January next in the areas of development aid, indebtedness, HIV-AIDS and so on. We cannot remake the world in the six months of our Presidency and we did not ask it to do that. However, it, presented us with a report and we are talking to the Minister about how to make that a priority. Obviously, that will be a matter for this committee and the sub-committee on development aid. It is something which Ireland could, with credibility, make a priority during its Presidency but it would help if we were reaching 0.7% of GNP ourselves. We keep saying we are making progress towards it but every so often we fall back. We must be resolute in that regard.

Why do billions of euro of European Union funds go unused each year with all of this going on? That question is addressed in part in the report we got, copies of which we can make available to the delegation. What does Sr. Ryan have to say about that? Billions of euro remain unused each year because the European Union is not able to use the funds made available.

Resistance of the Ethiopian Government to church involvement was mentioned. Will Sr. Ryan say a little more about that? What is behind that? If she is helping the citizens of Ethiopia, getting them through a difficult time and empowering them to take on responsibilities, where and why does that tension arise? Is there anything we can do on a Government to Government or on a Parliament to Government level to improve that situation?

I welcome the representatives and thank them for their presentations. The Horn of Africa has been very topical in this committee and we treat it as a priority. It is important to hear what is happening on the ground. I was in Addis Ababa a few years ago and had the opportunity to meet some people there. Unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to visit the missions. Pauline Conway was mentioned. She and many of the NGOs I met on that occasion were very committed.

The delegation outlined the situation and pointed to solutions. This is a small country and there is only so much we can do. We are anxious to play our part in whatever way we can. As regards EU funding to which Deputy GayMitchell referred, we will do what we can in that regard. It is recognised that Ethiopia is the recipient of the largest amount of foreign aid from this country. That is not only because of the situation there but also because it is organised. We are happy that the resources this country is providing are being used to good effect.

As regards the clinics, are they trying to drive the delegation out of the system by having guidelines for its clinics but not for Government ones? I am not sure whether we can do anything in that regard. I assure the delegation we will give whatever support we can, but it should keep up the good work. It is a difficult time. Unfortunately, a lot of the resources allocated for good reasons do not get there. As long as people such as the delegation continue to highlight the issue and to make noise, contributions will be made.

I apologise for missing some of the earlier speakers but I had to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad. I am a member of the Church of Ireland but I am very grateful to the delegation for the work it does. In a rather parlous time for all the churches, the one thing of which we are all intensely proud is the selfless, courageous and consistent work which members of the religious orders do throughout the world. It is greatly appreciated.

I know of some of the work, particularly that of the Medical Missionaries of Mary because a friend's father died a couple of years ago and the notice said that instead of flowers, please send a donation to the Medical Missionaries of Mary. I did not know where to send it to and I had to get the address. I know the address pretty well now as they followed it up. I also get nice, helpful and interesting newsletters. Instead of asking a question, I would like to give some further advice. Some of the organisations, particularly Goal, Trócaire and so on, which are involved with or connected to the Christian churches but not perhaps all manned or "personed" by the religious, send excellent briefings. That is the most efficient way. One does not have to have a television link to Addis Ababa. The print media is quite good as long as it is concise, clear and highlights the kinds of things we, as politicians, can do. Focusing on that might be a valuable way to go.

I absolutely agree with those who said Africa must not be neglected but, shamefully, it is. There have been a series of disasters around the Congo which is an appalling situation. I agree with several speakers who said there is a European responsibility because European countries went in there, exploited everything they could and committed genocide - for example, King Leopold in the Congo. We have a responsibility in that regard.

There is a kind of cycle in Ethiopia - famine, flooding and so on. Has any of the delegation noticed increasing desertification? "Desertification" is a rather awkward, ugly word but it also deals with a very ugly and threatening ecological situation which is being faced by China where the desert is visibly and rapidly encroaching on Beijing. Is that noticeable in Ethiopia as well? Is the situation getting worse? Is arable land being gobbled up by desert? Is there anything the world community can do to stop that?

I apologise for being late. I was at another meeting. I must declare an interest in that my sister-in-law is Sr. Margaret Coyne, who works at two of these clinics. She rarely comes home and when she does, she seems to want to go back immediately. She is a very dedicated person. I listened with great interest to the part of the presentation I heard and I have skimmed through the other presentations. I do not intend to delay the meeting but one thing which strikes me from running through the reports is how helpful low technology and low-cost interventions are - for example, regarding the integrated development programmes, things like wells. I emphasise what one might call appropriate technology interventions where one does not need to import expertise or parts for things to be replaced. In Africa, I was extraordinarily struck by the sheer exploitation of some of the alleged aid. Machinery with electronic systems was given. It is now strewn all over the continent of Africa because it was not appropriate or simple technology.

Sr. Margaret Coyne told me they began with a person with training in midwifery and then moved on to eye diseases and, more recently, to HIV/AIDS. In the Daughters of Charity presentation and in the others, there was considerable reference to the position of orphans. Those who have been orphaned as a result of HIV/AIDS are spread throughout the country but there is also the additional increment of the street children.

We should not dance around the issue. The Commissioner for European aid, Mr. Larsson, will probably be here at some stage. He was here years ago. Some €20 billion remains unspent. Having frequently considered this issue, I have come to the conclusion that one should take radical action, even if there may be some risks attached. For example, one could provide clean water for everyone on the planet for €20 billion.

It is appalling to discover that projects are dependent on money from the people of Finglas who sent €21,500 to the Daughters of Charity, who are short of money, to fund their projects, including the Makelle programmes, and who must replace funding from Scotland for a child support programme. These are small sums. We should seriously consider making a direct connection between some of the projects in question and Ireland Aid as they are not touched by the European Union's programmes.

I also have the impression - I could be wrong - that the projects do not often receive visitors from the European Union. I hope I am not risking my family's harmony by saying my memories of a conversation with my sister-in-law was that Italians visited from time to time because of their tradition of colonial relations with the region, but others did not often come.

On a practical level, one of the aspects of the projects which impressed me most when I first found out about them was the use by staff of alternative, homeopathic medical technologies, which are low cost and of immense assistance to people. It is horrific that people able to bear extraordinary physical disabilities are terrified of the idea of going blind. Some of those going blind have responsibilities for children, are children without parents or street children and there is no funding for projects to assist them.

The revolutionary effect of sinking a well, putting in pumps and the other initiatives referred to are obvious. There are practical things we can do. A direct relationship should be established between the Ireland Aid programme and the projects listed.

I detect a difference in the three reports in that some people are able to manage their relationship with the Ethiopian Government better than others. We should raise these issues with the Ethiopian Government in a sensitive manner. One might be so successful that one gets oneself fired up. There is also the question of access to the projects which are a long distance from Addis Ababa. There is the question of how one deals with the paperwork to get people and materials in and out. Perhaps Ireland Aid could be of assistance in that respect. I pay tribute to all those involved. I am sorry I did not hear the full presentations.

I welcome the delegation. I am sorry I was not here for the full presentations as I had to be present in the Seanad. I join the tributes to Pauline Conway who, I understand, was in Tanzania. Someone said she may be our ambassador there. I think she used to be called "minister" out there which shows she is certainly well thought of. At the last meeting of the committee, we discussed Ireland Aid and its various projects such as those in Lesotho, the Connemara pony project and the Bóthar project, with which I am familiar, which operates in rural areas and involves people sponsoring farm animals for countries in Africa. Bishop Kirby stated Trócaire was very involved in this project in Galway through sponsoring cattle, rearing of calves and so on. Was this project mentioned in the presentations?

We turn finally to Deputy Tony Dempsey from the model county in farming.

I apologise for being late due to circumstances outside my control. I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation. In particular, I share Senator Norris's expression of the pride Irish people feel with regard to our involvement in Africa and around the world. This pride probably affords the members of the religious orders present a level of support of which they may be unaware. Rather than ask questions or delay the meeting, I will propose two ways in which this support could be used.

I have been a teacher since I started my working life. The Chairman mentioned Wexford, the model county. I managed the county hurling team until a few months ago. Recently, on a flight to Lanzarote with the team, I was sitting beside one of the hurlers on the aeroplane and we were talking about poverty. I asked him had he ever considered going out to work in one of the poorer countries. He said he had every intention of going. No one had even asked him that question before. He is a young man called Darragh Ryan, a civil engineer, and one of the best hurlers in the country.

In the past, the religious orders travelled around looking for vocations. While there has been a significant drop in the number of vocations, there is a significant willingness among nurses, teachers, doctors and others, which I experienced as a teacher of 35 years standing at second level, to go out to developing countries and give about two years of their lives. The religious orders could capitalise on this. I know their funds are small but perhaps they could run an advertisement in some of the newspapers announcing that there are openings in this area.

The European Union has beef mountains and grain stores. As a person who is new to politics, I find it almost impossible, when I listen to presentations such as this one, to comprehend the reason we have so much food in Europe while people are starving a few miles away. Perhaps the delegation has more power than it believes and should start to make greater use of this influence by shouting more loudly about the wrongs of the European Union having so much surplus food and not distributing it. While I am aware there are political difficulties in this, they fade into insignificance when one considers that people are dying of hunger. I thank the members of the delegation for the work they do. Like other speakers, I am proud of what they do.

As the witnesses can see, there is a great interest in their work. They have given us many issues to think about, some of which have been picked up on by members. Deputy Gay Mitchell mentioned local empowerment while Deputy Michael Higgins referred to starting with smaller things and working one's way up. The witnesses have been doing this with great success, as Deputy Mitchell stated, in Ireland, particularly in terms of women and involving them in their own development.

Several members of the delegation mentioned EU funds and the reasons a significant amount of these have not been spent, which is a matter of concern. We know one of the reasons given is corruption in particular places where some of the money is held back. The presentations brought out clearly the kind of bureaucracy that delays the issuing of money. This is a serious issue at which we should take a hard look. Corruption is a problem in many states and creates major problems for anyone who wishes to work or fund projects in them. The issue must be addressed.

Bureaucracy can delay projects, particularly smaller ones such as those mentioned by Deputies and Senators, which do not require significant sums of money to achieve worthwhile results. They have a similar effect to pebbles in ponds. Why should these moneys be held up in the European Union? This issue will be pursued vigorously through this committee and the Committee on European Affairs, chaired by Deputy Gay Mitchell.

I noted Fr. Kelly's invitation to come out to see things for ourselves. We hope to do this as part of this project at some stage. Ireland Aid regards Ethiopia as a high priority area, as does this committee and our sub-committee on development co-operation, chaired by Senator Kitt. All the members of the committee with direct involvement in this issue are present and all have a great interest in it. If there is anything the representatives would like to say in answer to any of the questions, I will allow a brief response.

Fr. Paddy Moran

To return to Deputy Gay Mitchell's question, I had a particular concern when I was in Ethiopia about the whole AIDS-HIV issue. In the area we were in, the local hospital would ask people to donate blood, which was then analysed by the sister in charge. It turned out that roughly one in eight people were HIV positive at that stage, back in 1996. One can imagine the effect that would have on a town of 40,000, as Fr. Martin Kelly said.

It is interesting that, in Ethiopia, the primary target group we would try to reach would actually be civil servants. Civil servants travel throughout the country and a greater proportion of them are HIV positive than any other group. They are followed by the soldiers. This is a huge social problem and all cases are a tragedy, but teachers are also particularly hit by HIV. Schools are decimated by their teaching staff being reduced by 60% or 70%. This literally leaves young adults who have just completed their 12th grade, the equivalent of the leaving certificate, with responsibility for teaching. One has kids teaching kids.

Then there is obviously the huge question of prostitution. It is a major issue, but 1 December, World Aids Day, is now remarkably successful all around Ethiopia. One of the marvellous contributions, which was referred to earlier, is the festival of drama in local communities. I went to one school and witnessed a whole drama about AIDS. It expressed it all and one did not have to say a word. In our work we are very strongly involved in accompanying people who are HIV positive and their families. It puts enormous social pressure on families. It is the live issue and most congregations represented here are very heavily involved in it. We are playing a part——

The question was whether the level of AIDS is continuing to increase at the same rate, has levelled out or is in decline. What is the current state of the AIDS problem?

Fr. Moran

I am actually not sure but ten years of AIDS education has been missed in Ethiopia by denial at Government level. I say that with a sadness in my heart beyond all telling. AIDS was a problem in the mission where I was, in the middle of nowhere. It is no longer a problem in the major cities. In terms of the statistics, I am not sure how it is going and nobody is ever thought to have died of AIDS. It is always TB or whatever. It is never acknowledged. It is a tragedy beyond all telling, especially to see young teachers and the hope they bring to a new generation being lost.

Sr. Ailish Kinnane

I was only in Ethiopia for six years, from 1995 to 2001. First, I thank the Irish Government and APSO for sponsoring me while I was there. The Government and our embassy in Addis Ababa were really good. They used to hold get-together evenings, especially on St. Patrick's Day, which created a wonderful community feeling. I am really grateful and want to express my thanks for those lovely social evenings we used to have when all the Irish missionaries and others working in Ethiopia came together.

Regarding the AIDS problem, I worked in one project in Addis Ababa and one of the programmes I really loved was an outreach programme to girls and women involved in prostitution on the streets of the city. For the six years that I was there I tried to help this group of women. We came across many who had AIDS and also came across some who died of AIDS and left children orphaned. They were victims of AIDS because they lost their parents to it. Even though what I did was small and statistically insignificant, it was wonderful to make a difference to that small number when I was there. I am really grateful to have been in Ethiopia for that time.

Sr. Smyth

I have just a couple of points in response to the questions and comments. With regard to the media, it is my job to run the communications department. Unfortunately, southern Ethiopia is one of only three out of 70 places we have in 16 countries that does not have e-mail. This is partly because of its remoteness, but also because of the difficulty of dealing with bureaucracy. In Tanzania, if we do not have a terrestrial telephone line, we can have e-mail by high frequency radio. That is not possible in Ethiopia because we do not have the other kind of NGO structures that make that kind of service possible, whereby messages can be bounced along the ionosphere.

We would be very glad to put a section on our website for politicians to engage in chit chat. I do not mean a chat room but a facility whereby we could give politicians a weekly update. Our counselling service in Addis Ababa puts out an electronic newsletter. Unfortunately, I only got it yesterday so I did not include it in today's documentation, but we would be delighted to include committee members on the mailing list for it. We put out a monthly electronic newsletter with updates on what we are doing in the 21 developing countries in which we are located.

Regarding the interest of the Irish people and local contributions, west Finglas was mentioned already. Last year we had a very big problem in Malawi, as the committee knows, and much media attention was given to it. A priest telephoned me, wanting to give help to Malawi from the Tallaght area, including Fettercairn, Springfield and Belgard. I asked him whether he would consider Angola as we were getting a lot of support for Malawi. As a result, the people of Fettercairn, Springfield and Belgard have twinned with the people of Huambo, a forgotten, bombed out city in Angola.

Last Sunday I was in St. Joseph's Church, Presentation Road, Galway, to meet two 17-year-olds - 16-year-olds last summer - who heard one of our sisters speak on "Morning Ireland". They went to their headmaster and said that for their transition year project they wanted to raise money for the people of Malawi and to bring it out. The headmaster could not believe it but he spoke at the end of mass on Sunday, with the two girls and their parents in attendance, and they presented us at the end with €14,000. School ends on Friday week and they are going out on Saturday week to spend five weeks with us to see how we spend it. One cannot say that the young people today have not got energy, creativity and a sense of world community awareness. We need leadership at Government level and our level in the church but we, as one committee member said, need to capitalise on the energy of the young and ask them for their help.

I would like to add our voice - I have included this in my notes - to the expressions of praise for Pauline Conway's wonderful service and also for the service of the people in Ireland Aid.

Ms Conway will be well mentioned in despatches after today.

Sr. Kennedy

Deputy Gay Mitchell made a comment about the relationship between the church and the Ethiopian Government. I am not sure what it is. I was in Ethiopia during the famine of 1984-85 and there was a great partnership between all churches and the government at that stage. However, I was speaking with our provincial representative on Saturday and she said that our sisters are not experiencing that at the moment and are working in isolation.

Deputy Wallace asked about the clinics. We actually had to close down one of our clinics in Addis Ababa because the guidelines were so strict or severe that our sisters could not meet them financially.

I do not know what that says, but it is causing much sadness for the people on the ground trying to serve the poorest of the poor.

Sr. Ryan

I second that. There is great difficulty at the moment even in getting work permits, identification cards and permission to stay in Ethiopia for church personnel. It is something we have no control over, but if a word in the right ear could help it would be appreciated. One does not like always to be at the begging end. It might be that they feel they have power over us in that sense - and they have because we stay or go at their will. It was easier under Mengistu because he could not care less.

On the international communication side of it, the Good Shepherds have become an international NGO in special status with the UN and the ECOSOC, the economic and social department. We are working and using that designation for child protection and women's programmes and protection. We are also bringing before that committee any failures to honour the international agreements, by bringing up such cases where women have been sentenced to death in Nigeria and immigrants from Ethiopia in Lebanon where they are badly treated. Many Ethiopians there are locked up and have their passports taken from them. Ethiopian girls going there are having a bad time. We use it to bring these things to notice at international level. We also send reports, stating how things are and might be.

We had the privilege of having a lovely young Irish woman from Cork for 12 months in Ethiopia helping us.

They are lovely in Cork.

Sr. Ryan

Deputy Higgins is concerned about desertification. Ethiopia need not become a desert. It is a desert only because the forests have been destroyed. Forest can grow again if we plant them, but it needs help and attention.

As a supplementary question, is this the result of international logging or is it local people making use of whatever lies to hand?

Sr. Ryan

If one has nothing else to boil potatoes, one cuts down a tree.

I am not making a criticism, but it is not the international logging companies.

In other words, it is local.

Sr. Ryan

It is due to a total lack of fuel. Terracing is another thing that would save large parts of the forests. Some sisters in Tigrit are doing it. During the bad times, somebody started terracing the hillsides in the Tigrit province, one of the worst famine areas. The hillsides were terraced to ensure the soil was not washed away during the floods.

That was the traditional way.

I was horrified on one level to hear of the billions of euro left over in Europe, but I was delighted in another sense - that is if it is still there. The worst thing one can do with any problem is throw money at it. I have seen examples of that. If missionaries or aid workers are flush with money, it creates problems. While money is always scarce, the worst thing one can have is too much of it. I am delighted they are not throwing money at the problems because it is in the bank.

However, it is not fine to hear of a Montessori school or a clinic being closed down when this money is there. A problem with development which has increased over the last 15 to 20 years is that it is becoming more bureaucratic. The amount of paperwork to be done is becoming terrible. One almost needs a PhD to write up a small aid project.

The desertification is getting worse, but there are cases where it is getting better. It is due to people needing charcoal or wood for their fires. The problem arises when the population increases and there is better medical care. The pressure on the environment becomes worse. I do not have statistics on HIV-AIDS cases, but I have anecdotal evidence that it is getting worse. Last August, when I returned after five years, several people working for us had died from AIDS. The wife of a friend of mine died and he now is dying from AIDS. Anecdotally, it is getting worse and that is the experience I have heard from missionaries all over Africa.

One of the big problems of working in Ethiopia is that it is very bureaucratic. I do not know if they were contaminated by the Italians in the few years they were there. It is a wonderful country to work in, but there are two things to avoid there: one is a guy behind a desk and the other is a guy behind the wheel.

On behalf of us all, I thank you for coming here today. We have made contact with you now and we can follow up on some detail where it is necessary. I join with what has been said about the wonderful work that has been done over many years. There has been a great store of experience built up through that on where to start. Very often it is the little things that matter most and start building from the community and the parish level. The committee will give every support we can to the work you are doing. We will be putting together a report and hopefully we will go to Ethiopia to see some of the work there.

Fr. Moran

I wish to say thanks on behalf of our priests and sisters who are in Ethiopia who cannot be here. It is a way of bringing forward their voice and also their appreciation and joy when we made contact to tell them we were coming before the committee.

It was mentioned by Sr. Ryan that when people go out to Ethiopia, it creates an occasion and gives the embassy an opportunity to have a special reception which gives a boost to people locally. I have had experience, as have others here, of Soweto. I have seen the tremendous work going on there and realised the small amount of money needed to keep the work going. It is something that this committee will follow up seriously. We are also very concerned about the World Bank. While there are large amounts of money in the EU, there are many simple things to be done. There is no reason for delay in using that money and we will follow that up.

The joint committee adjourned at 4 p.m. sine die.
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