JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 2005

Federation of Irish Societies, UK: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome Ms Eithne Rynne, director, Ms Ann Gould, administrator, and Ms Maura Gaffney, vice-chairman, from the Federation of Irish Societies, UK and thank them for travelling here from the United Kingdom for today's meeting.

The Federation of Irish Societies was established in 1973 and has more than 100 affiliates in Britain. It promotes the interests of Irish people through community care, education, culture and arts, youth and sports activities and information provision. Members will recall that we met representatives of the federation during our visit to London and Birmingham and that more recently Senator Mooney attended the federation's annual general meeting on our behalf. As a consequence of this visit, the joint committee raised with RTE the new arrangements for broadcasting of sport on the radio and a copy of the correspondence and RTE's reply has been circulated to members. The attendance of the federation at today's meeting is both timely and welcome. I propose to commence the discussion by inviting Ms Rynne to make a brief presentation.

Ms Eithne Rynne

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for affording us the opportunity to share with them the federation's work with the Irish community in Britain and the issues we are trying to resolve on their behalf.

The Federation of Irish Societies is a national organisation with 115 members. It is the largest and most representative Irish umbrella organisation. It has been in existence since 1973 and was initially set up by a small group of individuals, working for and on behalf of the Irish community, who recognised the need for a forum to provide support and guidance for organisations working with Irish people. Since then, the pattern of emigration has altered and the needs of the Irish community in Britain have changed considerably. The federation has responded accordingly and has developed from a voluntary body, governed by a management committee with no paid staff, to an organisation that now employs 12 staff and has a strong board of trustees. We are waiting to hear the outcome of the recent DION allocations. If we are successful, I hope we will be in a position to expand our staff team to 17.

The vision of the federation is to achieve a confident, healthy and empowered Irish community participating fully in a multicultural Britain. We aim to do this by supporting, representing and developing our member organisations and the Irish voluntary sector in Britain.

The federation is committed to ensuring equality of opportunity for the Irish community in Britain. This involves representation at all levels of government — national, regional and local. Particular areas where the federation is working hard to represent the Irish community include the ethnic minority issue and the inclusion of the community in new initiatives for black and minority ethnic communities.

In addition to its representation in Britain, the federation acknowledges the importance of working closely with the Irish Government and would welcome the opportunity to meet regularly with key politicians and civil servants to raise issues of importance which it feels are relevant to the Irish community in Britain. It is important that the interests of the Irish community in Britain remain on the agenda in Ireland. We very much appreciate that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has given us this opportunity to meet it today.

An important issue for our members, with which I am sure the committee will be familiar, is that of free travel for Irish emigrants when they wish to return to Ireland to visit family and friends. This is a topic that has been on all our agendas in recent years and one regarding which we hope there will soon be a satisfactory conclusion. Our members have requested that the federation continue to work on their behalf on this issue. With that in mind, I met the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, during his recent visit to London, where we discussed the matter in some detail. At his request, I am now in a position to offer his Department some information on numbers, the take-up and need within the community. I remain hopeful that this long running issue will be finally resolved. The federation welcomes the support of the joint committee and other Irish politicians who continue to make representations on this matter.

This year the work of the federation focused on strengthening relationships with its statutory partners. It has also made great strides in developing inter-agency co-operation and raising the profile of the Irish community in Britain. I am very grateful to the ambassador and the Irish Embassy staff for supporting us in developing good working relationships with statutory agencies and key political figures.

During the coming year, we will be increasing the focus on local and regional areas and supporting our member organisations in becoming more involved at a representational level. We will also be targeting local statutory bodies in areas where there is no Irish organisation on the ground to do this.

We have put a strong emphasis on working with those groups who face social exclusion, such as Travellers, the elderly and those with mental health issues, since there is evidence to suggest that these groups are disproportionately represented among those experiencing social and health disadvantage. The federation will continue to map these inequities and to challenge and address them.

There have been notable achievements as a result of the federation's success in lobbying on behalf of the Irish community. For example, it has lobbied the UK Department of Health, the National Institute for Mental Health England, the Mayor's Office and the Greater London Authority. However, there is much more to be achieved with other statutory bodies.

There is a need to ensure that relevant data are available for the federation to continue to lobby successfully on behalf of the Irish community. These should include census information and up-to-date research on the needs of the community. One of our areas of concern is making sure that the census of 2011 will reflect the Irish dimension and ask the relevant questions to capture the required data. The federation is currently engaged in consultation with the Office for National Statistics to include questions relating to second and third generation Irish. I would welcome the support of committee members in addressing some of these policy issues if opportunities arise for members to meet counterparts or colleagues in Britain. This would help us to increase the profile of the community and inform those involved of the work of the federation in these areas.

Many of the federation's members are organisations providing a valuable and much needed front line service for the Irish community. Members cover a broad range of activities and provide a selection of services covering welfare, advice, counselling, housing, cultural and social activities. The federation's capacity building project, which is funded and supported by DION and the Irish Abroad unit, has been under way since September 2004 and already we see a number of common trends emerging which are affecting our organisations. These include governance; there is a skills deficit among our management committees and there are difficulties in recruiting and retaining new members, leaving small committees with difficulties in retaining high calibre staff. In terms of fundraising, there is often an over-dependence on one funder, mainly DION in this instance, or local authorities. Resources are lacking for relevant training courses in terms of finance as well as time, and with regard to networking, the links with external statutory and voluntary groups are poor. Many organisations do not access local fora or have little or no contact with other British and Minority Ethnic Agenda, BME, groups in the local area.

This part of our work involves supporting and empowering member organisations in realising their potential, developing them and enabling them to continue to provide quality services for the Irish community. We look at the ability of the Irish community to engage with its BME partners and other mainstream services, explore funding alternatives and encourage partnership working with statutory organisations.

We have already seen significant achievements within this project, where our team of community development workers has supported organisations in developing better relations with its local statutory bodies, has increased funding coming into organisations and has supported groups through mediation processes. The willingness of groups to access federation support contrasts with their lack of willingness to access mainstream help. While not wishing to duplicate provision, we feel that Irish groups should have access to support with which they feel comfortable. With this in mind I am grateful for the increased resources becoming available through the DION committee and on behalf of the federation I thank DION and the Department of Foreign Affairs for the introduction of the Irish Abroad unit as part of its commitment to implementing the recommendations of the task force on policy relating to emigrants. We are already seeing the benefits of this more co-ordinated approach and we are working closely with the Irish ambassador to Great Britain and with Mr. Seán Farrell, Ms Síle Maguire and the staff of the unit to progress the Irish in Britain agenda.

Another area of concern faced by the Irish community in Britain is its persistent and increasing ill health. Key physical and mental health issues have been identified and there is a clear need for our organisations to work more closely with statutory health providers to redress the situation. Our recent research report, "Health Impact Assessment", shows that as a community we are not developing appropriate links with statutory providers and therefore not accessing the range of health care provision available. Many committee members will be aware that in respect of heart disease, respiratory problems and cancer, the Irish community has higher mortality rates than for any other community in Britain, or the indigenous population, and is the least likely to have any health promotion campaigns and information targeted at it despite these quite shocking statistics. We have been working closely with the Department of Health and Children and I am delighted that we are now meeting with the coronary heart disease team, the cancer team and the alcohol and smoking cessation teams to redress the situation.

Another important area of our work relates to culture. There is a growing number of second, third and subsequent generations of Irish people who would benefit from increased access to Irish cultural experiences in Britain. The Federation of Irish Societies currently has over 50 clubs and society members. These groups provide a range of cultural activities on behalf of the Irish community. However, what is available to the community at present needs to be better resourced and co-ordinated while there is also a need to diversify cultural experiences so that a wider range of activities is on offer. The federation is currently mapping these organisations and the services they provide in order that development support can be given and any gaps in service provision addressed.

The federation already provides support for these members through the work of our clubs and community development worker. The demand for support from this worker is huge, and he is responding to a variety of needs covering governance, business and financial planning, marketing, recruitment and other employment issues. Unfortunately, there is little or no acknowledgement at British Government policy level of the need for development of cultural activities for the Irish community. This is being challenged by ourselves. Some of the federation's members have well developed activities such as drama or sport, but despite a thriving culture of Gaelic football and hurling in some areas, there is limited support from statutory funders.

We are extremely concerned about the recent decision made by RTE to continue its broadcasting of radio sports coverage on FM only, as this will most certainly affect the Irish community living in Britain. Many — in particular, the elderly population — will be adversely affected by this decision. Naturally the federation is keen to overturn the decision as it believes it will have a huge impact on its members, particularly as medium wave and long wave radio is the way that many keep in touch with their local area back home. We are also keen to see the introduction by RTE of a dedicated Irish television channel as additional resources to these cultural aspects within the Irish community is urgently needed. We are encouraged by recent discussions between RTE and the Government on this matter.

We were delighted to welcome a representative from RTE radio to our annual congress weekend in June to discuss these concerns. Many thanks to Senator Mooney for facilitating this, and also to the committee for sending the Senator as its representative. We were pleased with RTE's commitment to investigate the types of programmes of interest to the Irish community. The federation is now consulting with its members and the wider community on what they would like to see being broadcast in Britain. We shall forward these views to RTE as soon as possible. Again we would value the committee's support in this matter.

I hope that I have given members of the committee a broad overview of the factors affecting the Irish community in Britain, both internally and externally. The federation is currently in a strong position to continue to work on behalf of its affiliates and the wider community and is poised to develop and expand the services it can offer. It has a clear representative role within the Irish community, which is recognised, and is the organisation that statutory agencies rely on when seeking to consult with the community.

I thank the Chairman and the members for giving us the opportunity to meet the committee today. We look forward to continuing our close co-operation with members of the committee and their colleagues in the Oireachtas in addressing the needs of the Irish community in Britain.

Chairman

I thank Ms Rynne for a comprehensive review which she has got through very quickly. I have two comments before we continue. One relates to the RTE issue and the fact that Ms Rynne said she was extremely concerned about the recent decision made by RTE. Earlier she said the willingness of groups to access federation support contrasted with their lack of willingness to access mainstream help. It struck me, straightaway, that they seem to need a good Deputy over there. We find people, too, who have difficulty in accessing. It is one of the matters that we arrange. It should be possible to get assistance there through some type of liaison person. Once such a person is known, issues that arise may be dealt with relatively quickly. That is a worrying feature because everything should be there for them, as of right.

On the concerns over RTE, Ms Rynne mentioned that the committee had written on the matter. The federation would not have known at this stage the nature of the reply. We can give that to Ms Rynne after this meeting, when it will be in the public domain. The reply, addressed to the secretariat of the committee was as follows:

Dear Mr. Mulkerrins,

I refer to your letter of 28 June 2005 enquiring, on behalf of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, about future transmissions of domestic sporting events. From this coming weekend, RTÉ Radio 1 will, as it normally does, broadcast as much as seven hours of sports coverage on FM — the primary waveband — on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. On medium wave and long wave an alternative schedule will be available for listeners who want programmes other than sport. These changes which affect only Saturday and Sunday afternoons, are made in response to listeners who have urged that a choice ought to be available to them at these times.

Of course, we will monitor the public response to this new arrangement, here in Ireland and among listeners in the UK. There is no information in the form of audience research data about the numbers and preferences of RTÉ Radio 1's listeners in the UK and further afield. We welcome and rely upon their letters, emails and calls to help us gauge their reactions to our broadcasting. In the weeks ahead, we will attend carefully to that response, and the choices to be offered on the three wavebands at Radio 1's disposal will be guided by what the listeners tell us. If necessary, it will be possible to change the use of the wavebands quickly and easily in line with what the public wants.

If I can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Adrian Moynes

It is clear from this response that the matter is open to discussion.

Deputy M. Higgins

I welcome the delegation, which will get a positive response from the joint committee. When the Chairman, Senator Mooney, and I visited London and Birmingham in March we found that the trip was valuable. We were grateful for the information that was supplied to us.

I would like to make a couple of points about the topic under discussion. There are several different kinds of migrant group in Britain. When the members of the committee visited London and Birmingham, we noticed significant differences between cities and within cities, depending on the migrant population about which one is speaking. Most of the great migrants of the 1950s, when at least 45,000 migrated to Britain each year, are in the second half of their 70s now. That 58,000 people migrated in 1955 and just under 60,000 people migrated in 1958 gives one an idea of the scale of the migration of that era. The migration of the 1950s, which generally involved people from agricultural backgrounds who had been educated to primary level, contrasted with the migration of the 1980s, which involved the urban population. A not unrelated fact is that a stream within the young part of the 1980s migration was based on the difference between the two social welfare codes at the time and Ireland's proximity to Britain. All groups of such people are in Britain now and have different forms of need. I was personally very upset to find that the migration archive at University College Cork had to be closed because of a lack of funding and that the person who was running it, Mr. Piaras MacÉinrí, had to transfer to UCC's geography department.

We need to be practical about what we are doing now. It would be useful for the committee to be given an idea of the total number of migrant centres in Britain and their capital and current requirements. In some cases, the case was being made for the total repair of a building. In other cases, the demolition and renewal of the building was proposed with a multicultural and multi-ethnic future in mind. It was planned to develop buildings for future usage by people, the majority of whom might not be Irish. When I thought about the matter after I returned from my visit to London and Birmingham, I felt there was a need to strike a balance between the responsibilities of the Irish Government to its citizens — I am not making a political point when I say I wish we could implement in full the work of the task force and spend the money that is needed — and the responsibilities of local authorities and the British Government. The delegation correctly referred to this aspect of the matter. We do not receive a sufficient response from the British side when we visit that country. If it is proposed to develop a community centre to assist the Irish community among other communities, the relevant local authority needs to strike a clear balance and be much more forthcoming. There is a difference between the centres' current requirements and their future capital requirements if they are to engage in renewal, replacement or refurbishment.

We need to take on board what the delegation said in its submission about the issues of travel and television, which always arise during meetings of this kind. Surely it is possible, following the delegation's meeting with the Minister, Deputy Brennan, to run a pilot scheme during the summer months and to see how it works out. My mind has been changed by the people I have been talking to with regard to this issue. I had assumed that far more people wanted to return home on a permanent basis than actually do. Many of their friends have died and their communities have changed. They want the capacity to be able to come in the summer months and meet people. They should be able to arrive at a point in Ireland and travel on to their home place. However, if one has a limited income, cannot hire a car because of one's age and does not qualify for free travel, one will exhaust all one's allocation for the holiday in getting from the point of arrival. Without prejudicing a fundamental decision on the longer-term issues, one could construct a pilot programme.

Senator Mooney and I have raised similar views on the RTE issue, although he can speak for himself. We know the difference between FM and other bandwaves without hearing it from Adrian Moynes. However, sporting events take place on Saturdays and Sundays. One can dance up and down, but there are ways out of the problem and I would like to be positive about it. If one is going to do anything about RTE television, one can do so through an imaginative use of the RTE archive or the contemporary commissioning structure of the station. The commissioning budget from the independent sector could include items of migrant interest and one would be able to broadcast these quickly in the short term through the purchase of broadcasting capacity on satellite or through a digitalised system into the Irish community. These proposals should be followed up by the RTE authority and the committee should make a recommendation in that regard.

Senator Ryan

I think Senator Mooney should speak next.

Senator Mooney

No.

Senator Ryan

I will tell the truth about Senator Mooney. I feel very guilty because the issue of Irish emigrants in Britain is relentlessly brought up at the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, of which Senator Mooney, Deputy O'Donnell and I are members. We are often scrabbling around looking for issues, and this is a huge one. I promised myself that it would not be left off the agenda and I am sure that Senator Mooney and Deputy O'Donnell will copperfasten that guarantee. It is a classic issue for the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, and we will ensure that remains the case. We can begin to lobby our British parliamentary colleagues who generally have the greatest interest in Ireland in terms of gaps and inadequacies.

The reply letter is typical of RTE in that it answers nothing. Every Irish person abroad, from the beginning of May until the end of September, has one singular obsession whether they are emigrants or holidaymakers. They want to know who won the match last Sunday. People go to enormous lengths and make expensive telephone calls. I remember the few summers I spent working in London. There was an obsessive scramble to find out about matches. RTE, in its wisdom, does not understand that this is part of the life of any Irish person abroad during the summer. As a result of the way in which sport is distributed in Ireland, the victim will be the GAA. Gaelic games will be excluded because most of the other sports are played in the winter, at night or mid-week. They will still be covered in the traditional fashion. Irish people abroad cling on to the notion of Irish games because they are a little part of their identity which matters to them.

The submission suggested that Gaelic games are not particularly statutorily well supported in Britain. Is this the case compared to other minority sports? I ask delegates to elaborate on that issue because it would be a classic matter for the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. There are some people who I would love to beat over the head about it.

Senator Mooney

Michael Mates.

Senator Ryan

Yes, to name one individual, although he may not be there any more. I have two further questions. I have always detected a certain reluctance on the part of many Irish in Britain to accept the label of ethnic minority. There appears to be major ambivalence on the matter and Ms Rynne's suggestion that Irish age groups were quite happy to deal with the federation but were far less happy to deal with statutory bodies appears to be symptomatic. Is the ambivalence about ethnic minority status due to an excess or a lack of confidence? It is one or the other.

The joint committee will continue to chip away at the question of travel. The issue will be resolved, although there is a question as to whether it will be resolved in six months, 18 months or two years. The only way to provide an Irish television channel is through direct public funding, possibly as a way of publicising the country. It could be an Irish version of the channel TV5, which is produced by French television, on a smaller and less pretentious scale. Otherwise, there is not a commercially viable option and if we want to make Irish television available to Irish people in Britain, we will be obliged to pay for it.

Chairman

I had the privilege of extending free air travel to the islands off the west coast. Perhaps we could also extend it to the island off the east coast.

Senator Leyden

I welcome the delegates and compliment them on the delegation's composition. It is approximately 80% female and 20% male, which makes a change from most organisations that come before the committee.

Chairman

It is unbalanced.

Senator Leyden

It is refreshing to see so many bright young articulate women come before the joint committee. As far as the federation is concerned, Senator Mooney has been to the forefront of Irish organisations over the years since he became a Senator. This must be recognised. Perhaps everyone else has been equally involved, but Senator Mooney had taken up this issue even before the federation's inception. In respect of representation in the Oireachtas, the Chairman commented that the delegation needed a Deputy in the Dáil. However, Senator Higgins, who is a member of the European Parliament has generously offered to vacate his seat in the Seanad if a suitable representative of the Irish diaspora is nominated. The federation should bell the cat and nominate someone from its organisation to go forward as it is a representative group.

Senator Ryan

Is Senator Leyden speaking for the Taoiseach?

Senator Leyden

I believe I may speak as an individual Senator.

Senator Ryan

I know that.

Senator Leyden

I heard Senator Higgins, who is a member of the European Parliament, make the offer and the federation is a representative group. The offer was vague and many people could fill that position, but for the remaining two years of the lifetime of this Oireachtas, it would be ideal if Senator Higgins's warm and generous offer was acted upon. The delegates should convey a recommendation from their organisation to the Taoiseach.

Senator Mooney

Perhaps there could be a Senator Eithne Rynne?

Senator Leyden

It would be whoever was nominated in a democratic way by the federation. It would be worthwhile and refreshing to have its voice in the Seanad along with others, including Senator Mooney.

As far as the question of RTE and a dedicated channel is concerned, the possibility of a dedicated Oireachtas channel has been under investigation for some time. For instance, there is capacity for such a channel on the Sky network. However, as far as RTE is concerned, RTE radio is fundamental. I see no reason RTE Radio Worldwide cannot be accommodated by some kind of split channel arrangement. With current technology, there is no reason to deprive people of RTE radio. It is unacceptable and I compliment the committee for raising the matter. As far as I know, the Chairman did not extend free travel to people coming home from England for extended holidays of three or four months during the course of his term as Chairman of the committee.

Chairman

For the west coast, off the west coast.

Senator Leyden

I accept that and I commend the Chairman. I am sure he would have gone further if he could.

Chairman

We did not have much money in those days.

Senator Leyden

I took up the case of an individual who was in Ireland for a very extended period of time and who contributed to the Irish social welfare system in the past through PRSI payments. I felt that there was a very good case to be made for giving free travel to someone over 65 or 66 in this situation when he or she was in Ireland. As far as coming from Great Britain to Ireland is concerned, that would be by way of a grant system. It would be worthwhile investigating the pilot system mentioned by Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

A point was made regarding homelessness in the UK and the question of repatriation. When I was a member of Roscommon County Council, we actively pursued this option. However, I made the point then, which did not get much support, that the housing officers should, where applications come in, investigate the cases directly. We have been helpful and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government should be encouraged to recommend to local authorities that they address in a more proactive way the question of people who wish to be repatriated. I was on the homeless committee of Roscommon County Council and I encouraged housing officers to travel to the UK from where the applications were coming and proactively encourage people who wanted to return. We owe them more than that. Repatriation is the very least that we should offer them.

Deputy O’Donnell

I welcome the delegation and congratulate it on the work it is carrying out. I read in its report that it has spent a considerable portion of the last 12 months building up the capacity of its affiliate organisations. I understand that idea was discussed in this committee when we had the Minister here to talk about funding for the Federation of Irish Societies. The point was made that rather than having this agency approach, which was recommended in the task force report, it would be better to put the funding into the Federation of Irish Societies in order that it could build up the capacities of the frontline organisations. Does the federation believe this is a good idea? Is it working and is the group within the Department of Foreign Affairs adequately meeting the federation's needs in terms of sufficient direction and co-ordination with its efforts?

With regard to the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, I put a question down at one of the meetings, which was not reached. It was probably answered in written form and on the official record of the body. The body would be a good forum for us to discuss this issue, particularly the co-ordinated gap between the statutory bodies in the UK, which have enormous responsibility for the people we are addressing, as well as linking in with the Federation of Irish Societies. The federation should let us know if we can do anything for it and we will be happy to help.

Deputy Carey

I apologise for leaving the meeting earlier. I will explain the reason for it shortly. I welcome the delegation and was very impressed by its presentation. Speaking as the co-chair of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body, I had a meeting with the Irish members last week or the week before to discuss possible items for the agenda of the next plenary meeting. A number of the members here have already flagged some items which I will put to the steering committee meeting, which will take place in Dublin on 19 July 2005. I hope that the various committees will take up those items.

On that note, one of the reasons I left the meeting was to find out what was happening. I am pleased to tell the committee that the British Government has nominated Paul Murphy, the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, as its co-chair. Lord Dubbs will take the place of Kevin McNamara and Michael Mates, MP, will remain the Conservative Party representative on the steering committee. I will know the identity of the other members later.

I am pleased that after a significant hiatus, the full number of people have been nominated to the body and I look forward to a wide range of responsibilities being undertaken by it. I regard as imperative that the body takes on board many of the issues raised by the delegation. Along with my colleagues, I will report back.

Chairman

That is very good and welcome news.

Senator Mooney

I thank my colleagues for their gracious comments. All of our colleagues in both Houses, the core of which is present here, continue to highlight the issues of the Irish abroad. I do not want to detract in any way from the important work done in the Houses. The only other aspect of the delegation's presentation that relates to what has been said previously is that the body should now be used as a conduit for many of the issues, which is a significant matter from the delegation's perspective because we are dealing with our colleagues in the British parliamentary system, as the delegates suggested in their presentation.

Regarding the cultural dimensions referred to, we should discuss the impact of the changes in licensing laws, which the delegates touched on in their presentation. They should not go into detail due to the time constraints but do they consider it useful for us were we to highlight what they believe to be the adverse impacts of the tabled amendments? As far as I am aware from my own work in this area, the Bill has been gestating for many years and was a major issue among the Irish in Britain when it was going through both Houses. I learned of the details involved at the time and know that the matter was raised informally with members of the body. Effectively, this could cut off the access to clubs and other locations across the UK for Irish cultural groups, such as traditional music groups and various others, since licensing will now be handled by local authorities. If someone lives next door or in proximity to an Irish centre, that person could object to his or her local councillor who in turn could object to the licence being renewed for that centre, which would prevent Irish dancing, musician or instrumental classes taking place, namely, all of the social——

Deputy M. Higgins

Weddings also.

Senator Mooney

The Deputy is right.

Perhaps the delegates have a view on this matter. It may be helpful for the body's members and its co-chair if the federation were to put together a memo. I thank Ms Rynne and the delegation for addressing the committee with their excellent presentation. I hope some good will come of it.

Chairman

Does the delegation realise that Deputy Carey is Co-Chair of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body? There could not be a better introduction to the body's business.

Ms Rynne

I will respond to some points and then ask my colleague, Ms Maura Gaffney, to address some of the others. A number of the committee's members mentioned the matter of accessing supports, which I will deal with as I progress. I thank Deputy Michael Higgins for his comments. I understand where he is coming from in terms of archiving, cultural activities and RTE. He is correct that there are two distinct groups of emigrants. There are the people who went to Britain in the 1950s and early 1960s and the younger people who went in the 1980s predominantly. Something we have found is that it is difficult to balance these two groups and their needs. The committee will have heard about an elderly population on the "Prime Time" programme in terms of deprivation and homelessness.

However, there is also a need to try to engage the second and third generations as well as the first generation of younger people who went across, which I touched on earlier. It is difficult to engage with them at present because our clubs and centres are geared towards an older population. Perhaps the younger generation is either too busy making pots of money or is not engaging or coming on board as we would like. There is a need for these people to become involved, as they have skills and expertise that could counterbalance the problems organisations have with their management committees and lack of skills. Some of the people who opened and started the centres with the best wills in the world went to Britain in the 1950s but are now struggling due to employment legislation, new laws and policies, with which they are trying to keep up. We try to engage with younger as well as older emigrants.

The Chairman made a point on people being more comfortable accessing federation support. There is a comfort zone with regard to mainstreaming. As committee members are aware, for many years people have kept their heads down. They have not wanted to engage with their mainstream partners or with statutory organisations. They have been discriminated against. We try to draw them back into the mainstream and ensure their organisations have the capacity to provide quality services and draw down the statutory funding that traditionally they have not been able to draw down.

The main concern is that until we had ethnic minority status we were not viewed as being as much in need as other communities. It was difficult to engage with statutory organisations. Through building capacity we examine the organisations and do a health check on them. We identify gaps and skills deficit and provide support through training, information and linking them back into their community in order that they can access other BME or mainstream groups where they can learn from the experiences of others and develop their own services.

I will now deal with the point on the total number of centres and capital. This touches on Deputy O'Donnell's point on the Irish Abroad unit. We have been given much responsibility to work with our groups and provide information on our current situation as a community. People are willing to work with us. We had envisaged a fear factor whereby people would not have allowed an organisation, statutory body or funder to examine their group financially and establish what their needs were. However, people feel that if they engage with us or the Irish Abroad unit, they will learn from what is available.

We will make improvements and will be able to map exactly where we are in terms of services on offer, what is needed and the groups that need to be developed. While we have 115 members throughout England and Wales, unfortunately only two of them are in Wales and we do not have an Irish organisation or representation in large parts of Britain. That needs to be developed and much work must be done to map out what is available and what is needed.

I thank Senator Brendan Ryan for his support and I am delighted he will bring issues to the interparliamentary body. We have observer status at the British Irish Interparliamentary Body and I would be grateful for an opportunity to present to some of its committees. It would be a good opportunity to target and liaise with the MPs with whom we must engage.

Two distinct groups feel they qualify as an ethnic minority and are happy to have that mantle. Other groups, such as the younger population with which we cannot engage, do not see themselves in need of ethnic minority status. If we have such status, we can draw down the funding to which we are entitled. We pay taxes in Britain and are entitled to statutory services. If that is what we must do to be listened to and get the services we deserve, most people are happy to accept that.

I will now pass over to Ms Gaffney, who is writing copious notes. I do not want to miss out on the opportunity for those notes to be shared.

Ms Maura Gaffney

I will pick up on the archiving point which is important. Some communities in Britain wish to set up their own archives to collect local material and material they find of use and interest. They are beginning to look for funding for that. It is important to encourage that investment in a history which connects them to Ireland and the history of migration.

The point on RTE programming is interesting. Investment could be made in commissioning new programming which could be broadcast in a number of ways. The fall of Tara TV some years ago was highly contentious within the community and informs many peoples' views and concerns about change. People feel that they lost out in the past and they do not want to lose again.

I also accept the point that was made about people catching up with sports results and I have found that it is a constant source of conversation. People are interested in their counties and in having a link back to Ireland. Sport provides people with the opportunity to talk about their counties and is a major topic of conversation and a link between Irish people whenever they meet; it grounds them instantly. That is the context and some broadcasters may not find the issue very understandable but it is of major importance nonetheless.

Many other issues were raised such as travel, and so on, which can become very emotive for people. Issues like travel are extremely important to those living abroad. It is difficult for people living in Ireland to grasp just how important they become for people. Bubbling under many of the issues of concern is identity and how people maintain their identities, build their self respect and find a position in a new country. This is something with which our community has struggled because there is a perception that it is easy to integrate and that people should do so. That is an expectation Irish people have taken on their own shoulders, while being fully aware of their own cultural needs.

An attitude is often expressed in Britain that there is no need to fund Gaelic games because they are no different from native football games or indeed, to fund any separate services for Irish people because they are the same as British people. Questions are asked about the point of such funding and why problems are being brought up. This means that our groups are banging their heads against such issues constantly, knowing from their clients that is not the individual experience. We constantly have to reiterate the points about separate identity and support the other groups in doing so.

With regard to funding, we need to be able to support groups to make these points. Furthermore, in terms of identity, an acceptance of funding from Ireland is important. Irish people in Britain feel safe with, and entitled to, such funding, whereas there is a fear about making a case to a British funding organisation. It is more difficult in their eyes. They are more worried about the questions that will be asked and there is a doubt about whether they are really entitled to British funding. We need to build up the groups to be able to assert their case with confidence and acquire the information required to back it up. In that way, when they approach the funding organisations, they have an excellent case.

Many of the issues discussed are tied to the underlying issue of identity. That can also be an issue with the second and third generations of Irish in Britain and the younger people. While they might not necessarily want to go to the clubs run by the older generation, with music that they have no interest in, they still have a great interest in their culture. One will often find the second generation queueing around the block for Irish dancing, music and language lessons. There is still a real desire in that community to build up the capacity to represent and to acknowledge their Irishness.

The issue of ethnic minority status has been a very difficult one. It has been political to some extent and also an issue connected with the Troubles. It has eased to some degree but has not gone away because it is still the perception of the 1960s and 1970s generation, who lived through it. While the situation is not the same now, there are very strong memories of difficult times and there was a considerable amount of discrimination. Those memories still linger with people who are now running organisations, sitting on committees and so forth, and whose attitudes feed through, often in subtle ways.

Ms Rynne

Senator Leyden raised the issue of homelessness and repatriation, which is a subject close to my heart. Some time ago I returned to Ireland and was living and working here for two years. I was working for Emigrant Advice, an organisation which provides advice for both prospective and returning emigrants. We wrote the book Returning to Ireland while I worked there with support from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I also had the opportunity to visit a number of groups in Britain and in the United States. During the period between 1998 and 2000, people were considering their options in terms of coming home and I am sure that they continue to do so.

I mentioned our frontline organisations which provide advice on welfare and housing for our homeless population. As I had a significant amount of information to share with this committee, I could not single out every group. Our organisations work closely with the aforementioned population and assist those who are entitled to find housing in Britain. Equally, they support those who want to return home. I concur with the comment that more support should be forthcoming from local authorities. I would welcome any intervention in this area.

When I worked with frontline organisations, I found that while people who were away for many years expressed a wish to return home, a fear factor was involved and perhaps they viewed Ireland with rose tinted glasses. When the time came to complete the applications, they withdrew from the process because they did not wish to continue with it. There is a mixed bag in this regard.

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the committee for providing us with the opportunity to attend this meeting. We would welcome any future opportunity to attend the committee or to provide it with further information.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I thank the delegation for taking the trouble to join us today. To a certain extent, they received a two-in-one package because they also met members and the Co-Chairman of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. It will be interesting for the delegates to follow that up. We wish the delegates a safe journey home.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.55 p.m. and adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 19 July 2005.